00:01 anyway, my self-feedback on the current 3.7 early-game changes is that it now feels a lot more like my early-game deaths are my fault, which in a way is discouraging because it's making me feel like I'm not very good at NetHack 00:01 there are various help groups for that 00:02 'Hi, i'm K2 (hi K2!) and... I'm bad at nethack' 00:03 it was more funny in my head 00:03 million times better than deaths that aren't your fault 00:03 well, yes 00:03 it was still preeetty funny 00:03 but, if you're a devteam member, maybe no 00:04 like, if I keep dying to things that aren't (as a NetHack player) my fault, I can (as a NetHack developer) change them 00:04 I imagined it like one of those million therapy groups that the guy from fight club went to 00:04 so I have more control over that, than about things that are just caused by being a bad player 00:04 fair enough. do a training montage 00:04 -!- mikew999 has joined #tnnt 00:05 also I worry that we may be making the game too hard for unspoiled players, although I suspect that's never been a worry before :-D 00:05 I think right now the game's easier than ever for unspoiled players 00:05 it probably is 00:06 overall 3.7 is more diffcult than 3.4.3/3.6 00:06 part of the reason I chose 20zm specifically as the unique price for the !oHealing is that it's a price that unspoiled players seem generally capable of noticing 00:06 even with ais523 most recent changes 00:06 K2: I am not sure about 3.7 versus 3.6 for non-valks 00:06 I dont like these easy mode commits though 00:06 3.7 is more difficult than previous versions but a lot of that difficulty comes later than the early game 00:06 3.6 is clearly easier for lawful valks, even I can intentionally win three valk games in a row 00:07 you cant single out a specific role/race. i'm talking overall 00:07 in 3.6, the important parts of the game wrt win rate are (primarily) the mid-early-game difficulty spike and (a distant second) the Castle 00:08 K2: I think I can – the early game is basically about racing a power curve, the monsters will get more varied and dangerous as you level up 00:08 but you have to level up to be able to beat the deeper monsters in combat 00:08 all you need to get to the wow is a tonal instrument tbh 00:08 in 3.7, at least, since there's no purple L 00:08 so the game is primarily about improving your character's stats at a sufficient speed, ideally in ways that don't involve xlvl 00:08 every single thing in the game, the player can make choices or utilize objects they come across to change the outcome, save one - the mysterious force 00:08 K2: HoOA 00:08 irrelevant 00:09 the difference is so minute its not worth mentioning 00:09 also, you can dig straighter paths so that the mysterious force is faster to recover form 00:09 I think one of the *best* parts of the mysterious force is the way that it makes your choices more relevant 00:09 i have an idea for giving the player some level of control over how the MF affects them without removing it entirely 00:09 …possibly the only good part? 00:10 but as it stands currently, the player really has no control over how it's going to behave at all 00:10 and its the biggest 'gotcha' in the game to boot 00:10 I used to hold a soft spot for the force, at least a little. no more. my last two 3.6 ascensions had the pacing absolutely fucked by it 00:10 I actually see one of the more significant problems of the mysterious force being it sending you back across swamp levels 00:10 * Umbire coughs loudly 00:10 pacing is something not often brought up when talking about nethack, but it's surprisingly important 00:10 because there is comparatively little you can do to make those safer / faster / more interesting to traverse, compared with the rest of Gehennom 00:11 cough 00:11 please stop trying to pick apart the mysterious force, you're ruining the mystery. just sit back and appreciate its ineffable nature 00:11 Loggers_VIII: oh, I generally assumed that the pacing was a huge mess anyway and so talking about minor improvements to it would be pointless 00:11 ais nethack's pacing is shit. the mysterious force is SO BAD that it still kills the pacing in a way that feels horrible. that's how much worse it is than the rest of the game 00:12 the MF is the #1 reason players quit late game 00:13 quit as in rage quit 00:13 K2: oh, I misread that as quitting the game entireley 00:13 you didnt misread it 00:13 and thought "that can't be right, very few players even reach that part of the game" 00:13 K2: I mean, not just the current game but all future games too 00:13 ah 00:14 getting sent back a million levels just cause 'lmao fuck you' is just not interesting imo. I'd much rather something actually interesting happen 00:14 no i meant that particular game, not 'F nethack i'm done' 00:14 oddly, I think the major reason why people who have ascended stop playing NetHack is that they find it too easy 00:14 some do 00:14 luxidream comes to mind 00:14 nethack players stop playing nethack either because they can't get past early game or because they win too much and find it boring, basically 00:14 Loggers_VIII: it isn't really "back", if you haven't fully explored, it often sends you to a part of the level you haven't been to yet 00:15 hmm, I wonder if this is something of a "symptom of overpreparation"? I play NetHack sloppily in order to increase the chance of interesting situations occurring 00:15 ok I don't wanna hang out in a random corner in gehennom where nothing can kill me I wanna go to the endgame where the fun stuff is :P 00:15 also, I have found Gehennom pretty easy when semi-speedrunning because it's interesting to optimise 00:16 Loggers_VIII: OK, %ithat is a balance issue 00:16 seriously though, if you really want to make a significant improvement to nethack that all players will embrace, while also not pissing off the rest of the devteam that are adamant about keeping the mysterious force in the game - make it so the player can affect how the MF behaves 00:16 * that is a balance issue 00:16 even if its a real challenge to do 00:16 at least they have a chance to have a say 00:16 K2: so in NetHack 3.4.3, you can actually do that 00:16 make it so you can choose to fight some special monsters or something instead of getting sent back, that could be cool 00:17 instead of going up Gehennom the normal way, you take the portal into Rodney's, which works even with the Amulet 00:17 then you teleport the Amulet out of Rodney's 00:17 my idea was something like 'the more times you kill rodney, the less of a chnace the MF kicks in' 00:17 and go back through portal and levport up to take it out 00:17 yeah 3.4.3 had all sorts of exploits 00:17 I suspect that this doesn't work nowadays because the Amulet is constrained to stay in the tower 00:17 although, it may be possible to get Rodney to fetch it for you, come to think of it 00:18 if that works I am definitely leaving it in :-) 00:18 heh 00:19 the branchport steed exploit is hilarious and, although I can see why it had to be fixed, I am a little sad that it was 00:19 i am sad too 00:19 it is a good trick 00:19 what is that 00:19 it is in the Bug Hall of Fame 00:19 Loggers_VIII: you could use the EotA to branchport while your steed was carrying the Amulet of Yendor 00:19 so you would just branchport to, say, Sokoban 00:20 oh cool 00:20 (or on an optimised speedrun would visit just one level of the Mines in order to get even higher) 00:20 can you give it to, say, rodney and then level/branchport with him next to you 00:20 there is an even faster variant, but it took me absolutely ages to set up even in wizmode 00:20 Loggers_VIII: no, he won't follow 00:20 lame 00:20 oh no the mosnter move tele 00:21 I love the monster move tele because it is so confusing to explain 00:21 can a gelatinous cube eat the amulet of yendor 00:21 Loggers_VIII: they might be able to engulf it / pick it up, but aren't able to destroy it (among other things it isn't made of a material they can digest) 00:22 Loggers_VIII: it just checks whether the amulet is in a monster's inventory. items eaten by a gelcube are put into its inventory, so you can't make it follow you either and retrieve it later 00:22 if a monster does an action that levelports the monster directly after it on the monster list, the loop that processes monster turns will start operating on the migrating monster list 00:22 boo 00:22 (unrelated but interesting fact) 00:22 Demo: has that been fixed yet? 00:22 ohh 00:22 in vanilla, this isn't a problem because monsters cant do stuff to a monster that levelports it 00:22 ah, I see 00:22 in some variants, no, not that im aware of 00:23 because it caches nmon in case the current monster is destroyed, and then it just starts using nmon of that? 00:23 are you sure? genetic engineer with conflict may be able to do it in 3.7 00:23 so it gets switched over to the next one? 00:23 how would a genetic engineer with conflict move a monster to the migrating list? 00:23 genetic engineer can levelport you? 00:23 (cause a flying monster to become something that doesn't fly, retriggering a levport trap that they spawned on top of) 00:23 or more directly, knockback? 00:23 that can knock things into levelport traps 00:24 but actually I think those levelports might be deferred? 00:24 or something like that? 00:24 yeah ok idk how this impacts 3.7 00:24 player levelports are deferred, at least 00:24 if they happen during the monster turn 00:24 i know it impacts dnethack, and im pretty confident it impacts slex 00:24 yeah, maybe I'm just mixing that up 00:24 although, I think at some point we added a check to skip the rest of the monster turn if that happened, preventing all the exploits 00:24 it's a very rare bug that I have run into with the fuzzer 00:25 yeah, the monsters on the list SHOULD have no movement points and should not actually get a turn 00:25 if a monster knocks another monster into a levelport trap no more monster will move that turn? 00:25 qt: no, if a monster knocks the player into a levelport trap 00:25 but it will effectively abruptly end the monster list turn and stop guys on the list who deserve a turn from having onw 00:25 (e.g. red dragon breathes fire, melting ice underneath you, you climb out and end up on top of a levport trap) 00:25 oh yeah I see 00:26 I thought you meant the mvm case 00:26 in 3.4.3, if that happens and then a quantum mechanic teleports the player onto the Amulet of Yendor 00:26 you get to levport with the Amulet, because you didn't have it at the time you triggered the trap 00:26 but it is somewhat difficult to set up 00:26 especially quickly, because there is no water on the vibrating square level pre-invocation 00:27 haha somewhat 00:27 so you have to have the monsters set up the entire setup on their own turn 00:27 if you want a true minimum turns ascension 00:27 enexto skips are somewhat hard to pull off 00:27 that is nearly impossible to pull off 00:28 if you set it up manually post-Sanctum it probably isn't amazingly difficult 00:28 how do you force yourself landing on the levelporter? 00:29 fill the rest of the level with acid blobs ;) 00:29 then, there are the purely luck-based skips like displacing a swimming pet into a Plane of Water bubble so that you can't climb back into the bubble after drowning, and having lifesaving drop you next to the portal 00:29 Demo: when you climb out of water you climb to an adjacent square 00:29 so you just make the levporter the only available adjacent square 00:29 sessile monsters are good for blocking squares off 00:30 or just more water? 00:30 that works too 00:30 yeah ok that is actually reasonable 00:30 one of the more unreasaonable parts is controlling the monster turn order 00:31 so that the dragon takes its turn before the quantum mechanic 00:37 as always, good conversation. back in a bit 00:39 ais523: I don't really understand the order. Ice melts under you, you fall into the water, climb back out on a level teleporter -- at what point is the quantum mechanic supposed to hit you onto the AoY? 00:40 -!- Loggers_VIII has quit [Quit: Client closed] 00:42 qt: after you hit the level teleporter 00:42 -!- unit327 has joined #tnnt 00:42 3.4.3 processes the entire monster turn before it resolves the level teleport 00:43 but, it checks for whether you have the Amulet at the time you hit the trap 00:44 so the exploit is in the TOCTOU category which is actually pretty unusual for video game bugs 00:45 ah -- so you hit the level teleporter, it queues up the level teleport, and then the quantum mechanic knocks you onto the AoY and you pick it up? 00:45 cool 00:45 right 00:54 -!- Noisytoot has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57 -!- Noisytoot has joined #tnnt 01:09 it is likely to get even more tedious doing it in real life 01:09 print out some leaflets and give them to anyone who asks 01:15 -!- Glasshopper has quit [Quit: Hops away...] 01:16 -!- Glasshopper has joined #tnnt 01:23 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 01:24 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Glasshopper))] 01:24 -!- Glasshopper is now known as Grasshopper 01:25 -!- Grassy has joined #tnnt 01:27 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Grassy))] 01:27 -!- Grassy has quit [Client Quit] 01:27 -!- Grasshopper has joined #tnnt 01:27 -!- Grassy has joined #tnnt 01:28 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 01:28 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Grassy))] 01:29 -!- Grassy is now known as Grasshopper 01:29 -!- Grassy has joined #tnnt 01:45 -!- Elenmirie_ has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 01:50 -!- mikew999 has quit [Quit: Client closed] 01:51 -!- Elenmirie_ has joined #tnnt 02:00 -!- Furey has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:02 -!- Grassy has quit [Quit: Hops away...] 02:07 -!- Waffa has quit [Quit: Waffa] 02:17 -!- xdminsy has joined #tnnt 02:22 -!- Elenmirie_ has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 02:28 -!- Noisytoot has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in] 02:28 -!- Waffa has joined #tnnt 02:30 -!- Noisytoot has joined #tnnt 02:35 -!- Elenmirie_ has joined #tnnt 02:46 -!- Waffa has quit [Quit: Waffa] 02:58 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 03:08 -!- Elenmirie_ has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 03:43 -!- stagnate has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:47 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 05:07 -!- mikew999 has joined #tnnt 05:41 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 05:51 -!- mikew999 has quit [Quit: Client closed] 05:56 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 06:47 -!- Elenmirie_ has joined #tnnt 06:52 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:12 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 07:14 -!- joes has joined #tnnt 07:25 -!- qt has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:16 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:47 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 09:57 -!- Umbire has quit [Quit: Umbire zaps a wand of digging!] 10:50 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:18 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 12:22 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:28 -!- Elenmirie_ has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 13:09 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 13:37 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 13:47 -!- aosdict has joined #tnnt 13:47 -!- mode/#tnnt [+o aosdict] by ChanServ 14:25 -!- Elenmirie_ has joined #tnnt 14:28 -!- Loggers_VIII has joined #tnnt 14:33 -!- qt has joined #tnnt 14:33 -!- mode/#tnnt [+o qt] by ChanServ 14:41 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:23 -!- Elenmirie_ has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 15:25 -!- Elenmirie_ has joined #tnnt 15:47 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 15:58 -!- stagnate has joined #tnnt 16:14 -!- ais523 has joined #tnnt 16:15 Is there a way to get a non-flying pet into Moloch's Sanctum? 16:18 magic whistle? 16:26 surrounded by lava 16:35 it's fire traps not lava I thought 16:36 -!- xdminsy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36 -!- rld has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36 -!- rld has joined #tnnt 16:36 -!- rld has quit [Changing host] 16:36 -!- rld has joined #tnnt 16:36 -!- mode/#tnnt [+v rld] by ChanServ 16:37 yeah when you do invocation the stair gets surrounded by fire traps and there's a moat of water outside of that 16:37 Sorry, the stairs down to the sanctum 16:37 ahh I thought it was lava 16:37 it was still waiting for me when I finished so not a big deal 16:38 what is it? 16:38 purple worm 16:39 and f the mysterious force 16:51 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:03 -!- joes1 has joined #tnnt 17:05 -!- joes has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:10 -!- Loggers_VIII has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:12 f the mysterious force 17:46 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Quit: Client closed] 17:51 30?  45?  way over the cosmic bungee 17:53 -!- engelson has joined #tnnt 17:56 you can probably dig down on the fire traps to replace them with pits 18:08 YAeah, I could (have) played with it.  I kept thinking it was lava 18:13 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 18:16 -!- engelson has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 18:23 -!- stagnate has quit [Quit: Client closed] 18:25 -!- Waffa has joined #tnnt 18:26 -!- stagnate has joined #tnnt 18:37 -!- engelson has joined #tnnt 18:40 -!- joes1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:49 -!- nurdglaw has joined #tnnt 18:55 -!- stagnate has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:06 -!- engelson has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 19:19 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Quit: Client closed] 19:25 I didn't get to play as much as I'd hoped but thanks for putting it on again <3 19:37 thank you for playing! hope you had fun 19:47 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 19:53 -!- Loggers_VIII has joined #tnnt 20:01 -!- Waffa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:22 -!- nurdglaw has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 20:42 -!- Waffa has joined #tnnt 20:54 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 21:01 -!- botifico-49a823b has joined #tnnt 21:01 [tnnt] entrez pushed 3 commits to master [+0/-0/±4] https://github.com/tnnt-devteam/tnnt/compare/6901d0fbd3d5...fc90deca302a 21:01 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 21:01 [tnnt] entrez b17a64b - Don't generate monsters on NKI squares 21:01 [tnnt] entrez b79896f - Require STR gain for "Superfood" 21:01 [tnnt] entrez fc90dec - Add new achievement: "Wafer-Thin Mint" 21:07 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Quit: Client closed] 21:09 does anyone know, under what circumstances is the kitten from the rfk level tame? 21:10 I forget if it's dependent on whether you started with a pet or if you currently have one 21:13 it's if you've ever had a pet 21:13 either at game start or later 21:13 oh I see 21:28 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 21:29 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 21:32 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 21:43 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 21:44 [tnnt] entrez pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://github.com/tnnt-devteam/tnnt/compare/fc90deca302a...e7accbd2c7b0 21:44 [tnnt] entrez e7accbd - Include level variant no. in bones file 21:56 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 21:56 [tnnt] entrez pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://github.com/tnnt-devteam/tnnt/compare/e7accbd2c7b0...3d27d49dc8ce 21:57 [tnnt] entrez 3d27d49 - Tweak bones file level variant tracking 22:03 -!- Waffa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08 yeah Loggers_VIII it's just to not lock you out from the RFK achievement if you're playing petless 22:08 gotcha 22:08 -!- Loggers_VIII has quit [Quit: Client closed] 22:19 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 22:20 -!- Furey has quit [Client Quit] 22:21 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 22:21 -!- Furey is now known as Furey-2 22:21 -!- Furey-2 is now known as Furey 22:22 -!- docpi has quit [Quit: for a few days, actually] 22:29 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 22:29 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 22:29 -!- Furey has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 22:30 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 22:31 -!- Furey has quit [Client Quit] 22:31 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 22:31 $who 22:31 Furey: [EU] moop | [US] No current players | [AU] No current players 22:32 -!- Furey has quit [Client Quit] 22:33 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 22:40 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 22:57 -!- Elenmirie_ has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 23:09 -!- stagnate has joined #tnnt