00:00 ###### TNNT 2023 IS CLOSED! ###### 00:00 Congrats! :) last ascension 00:00 FINAL TOURNAMENT STATISTICS: Games: 15087, Asc: 391, Scum: 6322. 48764944 turns, 1066931236 points. 561d 10:46 gametime. (26%Wiz), (52%Hum), (42%Neu), (55%Fem), 00:00 We hope you enjoyed The November Nethack Tournament. 00:00 Thank you for playing. 00:00 [EU] [A]: swegen (Pri Elf Fem Cha), 3525338 points, 64088 turns, ascended 00:00 https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/s/swegen/tnnt/dumplog/1698954972.tnnt.html 00:00 [US] [D]: DoktorL (Bar Hum Mal Neu), 3234 points, 1877 turns, killed by kicking a wall 00:00 whoa 00:00 oh noooo 00:00 wow buzzer beater 00:00 wow 00:00 \o/ :D 00:00 thanks for hosting 00:00 swegen has to eat the swap chest leftover contents 00:00 grats swegen 00:00 gg x2 00:00 Grats! 00:00 gg all. 00:00 thx 00:00 gg everyone 00:00 hehe I didn’t think I’d make it to swap chest in only 5 minutes 00:01 and thank you K2 for coming up with this nonsense 00:01 oh geez swegen 00:01 you made it hah 00:01 5 seconds on that one. so tight. 00:01 thanks everyone, it's been a ton of fun 00:01 round of applause for k2 00:01 Thank you again K2 for this year 00:01 ais523 wasnt just me 00:01 See you all next year fellas. 00:01 Thank you all! :) 00:01 and thanks again to disperse for telling me about it or I wouldn't have even known 00:01 loggers: i think you were supposed to take one of our donations, but that was very impressive nonetheless 00:01 lol 00:01 thank you everyone for playing! was a lot of fun 00:01 I was? my bad :p 00:02 helping the enemy 00:02 $lastgame finitelycraig 00:02 Noisytoot: [EU] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/f/finitelycraig/tnnt/dumplog/1701388247.tnnt.html | [US] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/f/finitelycraig/tnnt/dumplog/1699923173.tnnt.html 00:02 $asc 00:02 i should have an update on when shirts will be ready soon 00:02 desertgreg: [US] desertgreg has ascended 1 times in 1 games (100.00%): 1xArc, 1xHum, 1xLaw, 1xMal. | [EU] No ascensions for desertgreg. | [AU] No ascensions for desertgreg. 00:02 I knew I had like 3 minutes left so I just spammed a 00:02 it's OK, Tangles isn't in either of the clans in contention for the swap chest trophy, so that was neutral 00:02 * Bleeko wakes from trance that began on haloween 00:02 *3 seconds 00:02 [AU] [D]: karafruit (Wiz Gno Fem Neu), 258 points, 685 turns, killed by a gnome zombie (and one other game not reported) 00:02 neglected to register for the tournament :-( 00:02 $asc 00:02 wop: [US] No ascensions for wop. | [EU] No ascensions for wop. | [AU] No ascensions for wop. 00:02 Ah right. 00:02 $asc 00:02 Thanks to everyone who helps run this in any case. My family curse you for eating me every November. (or maybe they'd thank you too) 00:02 karafruit: [US] karafruit has ascended 7 times in 70 games (10.00%): 1xHea 1xPri 1xRan 1xVal 3xWiz, 3xElf 1xDwa 2xGno 1xOrc, 1xLaw 2xNeu 4xCha, 1xMal 6xFem. | [AU] No ascensions for karafruit in 6 games. 00:03 desertgreg: it still counts towards the individual trophies/leaderboards, just not the clan one 00:03 $asc 00:03 Furey: [US] Furey has ascended 8 times in 54 games (14.81%): 1xCav 1xHea 1xMon 2xPri 1xRan 1xRog 1xWiz, 4xHum 2xGno 2xOrc, 1xLaw 3xNeu 4xCha, 4xMal 4xFem. | [EU] No ascensions for Furey in 2 games. | [AU] No ascensions for Furey in 1 games. 00:03 register? 00:03 -!- oh6 has joined #tnnt 00:03 cool! 00:03 oh6: gg 00:03 desertgreg: https://tnnt.org/player/desertgreg 00:03 you have an asc rate of 100% :-) 00:03 8 is a nice number of victories, Furey :) 00:03 thanks qt for all the bug fixes for this year 00:04 -!- klepto has joined #tnnt 00:04 i think he had to leave before tournament close 00:04 good job everyone 00:04 oh there he is 00:04 no I'm here but I have go to right now 00:04 wow there are so many more people that have double digits ascs 00:04 so goodbye! 00:04 thanks wop! 00:04 good to see 00:04 :/ 00:04 bye qt 00:04 thanks qt and later! 00:04 that was a white-knuckle ascension 00:04 a lot more asc this year vs last 00:04 karafruit 8 is a nice number, so is 308, but the most impressive number is ac 1 00:04 wait what, ascension rate got changed back to how it used to work? 00:04 shadowrider38: now I feel embarrassed for only having 9 00:04 i thought that would bea 50% ascension rate? 00:04 much better legit vs scummed games ratio too 00:05 did it never get changed? 00:05 actually I guess I can stay like for 5 minutes 00:05 9 is embarrassing ais523 00:05 cant believe you call yourself an ambassador of our clan 00:05 K2: oh this reminds me, the website says that there's no disadvantage to adding extra people to your clan, but there is: it can cause the clan to miss Never Scum A Game 00:05 for shame 00:05 I got 2 ascensions :-) 00:05 shadowrider38: I'm not an ambassador, I'm just the extra figurehead name who was tacked on 00:05 Me too! :) 00:05 hah 00:05 that's not so bad for me 00:05 Furey: AC 1? seems a bit... bare 00:05 the bare necessity 00:06 I have ascended at AC 0 00:06 but not AC 1 00:06 wow we shattered the asc total from last year 00:06 like 70 more 00:06 k2: scum ratio is all billdcat, if you compare all non-billdcat scums/games, scums went up 00:06 is it just me or did bugles scare off the riders last year but not this year? 00:06 didn't feel like a higher turnout 00:06 anselmus: well I was about ⅛ of that, because I didn't play last year and ascended 9 times this year 00:06 everyone did great this year 00:06 I guess I could've angered the gods at the last second to get that AC 10 ascension 00:07 ratio is still better vs last year 00:07 i think 00:07 -!- engelson has joined #tnnt 00:07 I don't think anything has ever scared the riders except cameras 00:07 anyways 00:07 asc ratio is a bad stat to use in general for tournaments, because of unique deaths attempts 00:07 desertgreg that never should have been a thing 00:07 [US] Umbire (Tou Hum Fem Neu) entered the Planes, on T:47448 00:07 desertgreg: you may be thinking of using expensive cameras to scare the Riders 00:07 oh thats right, cameras 00:07 bugles scare angels not riders 00:08 I wend into the astral plane thinking I was going to scare them with my bugle :-D 00:08 * Nesta brought 2 cameras and startscummed wizards who didn't start with a tooled horn :-) 00:08 It definitely did not work! 00:08 I gave up on never scum when I decided to do foodless. Scummed like 90 or so, but since I'm the only one that got that, I consider it a fair trade 00:08 scumming is fun 00:08 Also I just can't start an elf ranger who starts with 4 lembas wafers instead of 5 00:08 Yo, thanks everyone who played, was fun! 00:09 Nesta, lol 00:09 I got round NSAG by going for unique deaths when the game was going badly 00:09 -!- shadowrider38 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:09 I had a somewhat-ok attempt at foodless with a pet cat-poly'd-into-troll but a gold golem ruined my day 00:09 its fun to play games that seem doomed.  you can come back from really bad situations. 00:09 I don't think I ever eat any of them anyway lol 00:09 but I'm not talking about foodless or any of the crazy stuff like that. 00:09 I think rations matter primarily when playing vegetarian/vegan 00:09 yes, was a very good tournament 00:09 and in the early game for certain classes 00:10 I kinda had 2 specific goals of play style for the tournament. Private games I treat totally differently. 00:10 karafruit, you did nudist which is even harder! 00:10 2022: 22526 games, 14144 scums, 11550 billdacat scums = 2596 non-bdc scums 00:10 [EU] [D]: Noisytoot (Val Dwa Fem Law), 2577 points, 3181 turns, killed by an orc-captain 00:10 2023: 15073 games, 6033 scums, 0 billdcat scums = 6033 non-bdc scums 00:10 kf made nudist look EASY 00:10 oh damn that's the end 00:10 nice work guys! 00:10 Arseniy: good job, enjoy the victory! 00:10 yeah hope everyone had fun 00:10 Furey: oh wow, is this a post163-like scenario? 00:10 victories* 00:10 what, like it was hard? ;P 00:10 still watching umbire 00:10 I found 3.6 a lot easier after having been playing 3.7 for a while. 00:10 The extra carrying capacity is considerable 00:10 honestly though it was my first time ever really trynig protection racket and once I got post-quest it was smooth sailing 00:10 i had a goal not to scum, but i blew it when messing with unique deaths one nigh 00:10 desertgreg: that's interesting 00:11 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed amulet versus poison", on T:12620 00:11 are there specific changes you have in mind between 3.6 and 3.7? 00:11 -!- Elenmirie_ has joined #tnnt 00:11 $time 00:11 wop: 2023-12-01 00:11:35 UTC. The 2023 tournament is OVER! 00:12 especially welcome to everyone who had never played before, hope you enjoyed it 00:12 awwww... all games lost. but had a lot fun. thank you for hosting this. 00:12 I'm not sure why, one thing is the unicorn horn isn't as powerful at undoing bad stuff but I just generally don't do as well.  Small sample size but I played an arch in tnnt and ascended first try. 00:13 I have to go now, see you all later 00:13 ah, I got pretty lucky in this game though so its too small of a sample size. 00:13 Cheers, qt. Have a good year :) 00:13 thanks qt! 00:13 cya qt 00:13 $time 00:13 nabru: 2023-12-01 00:13:23 UTC. The 2023 tournament is OVER! 00:13 $who 00:13 I think I got my longest streak in 3.7 but I've been playing it A Lot 00:13 nabru: [EU] No current players | [US] mikew999 Qwesti stagnate jackbunny eitlarry sirteapot Umbire Urc | [AU] No current players 00:13 I had an ascension this TNNT, so all good for me 00:13 3.6 and 3.7 both have a difficulty spike in the early game, and there seem to be four main things determining whether you ascend: whether you survive the very early game, whether you get over that spike, whether you can do the Castle, and whether you get overconfident and try to do the Sokoban zoo before you're ready 00:14 unicorn horns are the biggest difference I notice 00:14 well that and knockback 00:14 but most players know how to survive the very early game at this point, and the difficulty spike comes quite early and is mandatory, so is the thing that kills most players 00:14 it did make for an exciting early game, knowing you could die anytime 00:14 [US] mikew999 (Bar Hum Fem Cha) had Cleaver bestowed upon her by Set, on T:19599 00:14 if you can get over the spike, then the game is fairly easy from there, and you can do that with a bit of early luck 00:14 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) polymorphed his first object, on T:12676 00:14 on my final game, i was resorting to searching 3 times before every move 00:15 It's only easy if you know how :) 00:15 unsurprisingly, all my ascensions other than the valks had early luck 00:15 ais523 i think you're under-counting players who get hung up on early game 00:15 Furey: depends on what you mean by early game 00:15 the difficulty spike happens when the sum of your xl and dl is approximately 13 00:15 early depends on class 00:15 [US] Umbire (Tou Hum Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (class ;), on T:47667 00:15 -!- Noims has quit [Quit: Client closed] 00:15 Now to think. 00:15 and by "very early game" I mean xl 1-2 and dl 1-2 00:15 -!- Loggers_VIII has joined #tnnt 00:16 -!- Noims has joined #tnnt 00:16 it is interesting seeing other players struggle with the game 00:16 yeah it gets 'easier' after playing for years but I wouldn't call it easy yet :-) 00:16 I don't think I left the upstairs on DL1 before getting XL4 on my last one 00:16 like, you can see why and it seems obvious, but they just can't get over the hump 00:16 umbire has committed to never smiling and winking in this game 00:17 Factoid: Same number of players got Omelete as killed Demogorgon. Is this coincidence?? 00:17 well, this year, 218 players stepped on minetown altar, and 118 players entered the astral plane. i suppose the stretch between those two things is "difficulty spike" not "early game". 00:17 Bleeko: where did you get those stats? 00:17 It might not be a simple hump, because there's a period where it starts to seem easy and you'll get bored and overconfident and then the RNG hammer smash faces you 00:17 i'm being proactive and getting archive work done sooner rather than later 00:18 wop https://tnnt.org/achievements 00:18 Furey: yes, the spike normally happens sometime around Minetown, a little later if you do Mines first 00:18 getting to the minetown altar is def before the spike 00:18 yes 00:18 the first time, at least 00:18 getting back there a little later in the game is usually post-spike, and can cause a lot of minetown deaths 00:19 The discipline to avoid going to minetown if you don't have to... the pain point of exploring enough to really decide whether you don't have to prior to doing it. 00:19 if i can find some more tracer achievements (or if you put some in), the ach count produces some interesting stats 00:19 Furey: Playerbanebane is a good tracer 00:19 Any pacifists ? 00:19 there was a pacifist! 00:19 I saw oh6 had 100+ cockatrice eggs.  Do you have to polymorph yourself and lay them to get that?  Does it use food to lay eggs?  how doe sit work? 00:19 I see Thou Shalt Not Kill: 1 00:19 spontiff 00:19 wow! 00:20 desertgreg: extreme polypiling 00:20 desertgreg: need to poly yourself into a female trice (which is much more likely if you play female), lay with #sit, does use nutrition 00:20 this is much more reliable than polypiling, but the eggs are (laid by you) which means you lose luck if they break 00:20 https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/s/spontiff/tnnt/dumplog/1700376947.tnnt.html 00:20 polypiling!?  wow! 00:20 also, they hatch unless you take steps to prevent them hatching 00:21 oh so you don't want to lay them. 00:21 but how the heck do you get that many food items to polypile??? 00:21 Elbereth-less pacifist 00:21 well, I suspect the luck penalty was added as a balancing factor 00:21 desertgreg: rocks + stone to flesh 00:21 easy way to get masses of comestibles is stone to flesh 00:21 stone to flesh + poly 00:21 [US] Umbire (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed Pestilence, on T:47765 00:21 yeah, my overall procedure is find a cockatrice corpse, stone loads of monsters, break the statues, stone-to-flesh most of them, then polypile the meatballs with cursed rocks on top 00:22 polyselfless pacifist. That's astounding 00:22 wow! 00:22 anselmus: thanks, may call it a success or something 00:22 Furey: oh, Boulder Pusher is also a great tracer, that is definitively post-spike 00:22 What do the cursed rocks do 00:23 oh6 i remember! back in 2022 your arena npc came at me throwing eggs, that was fun 00:23 -!- blackpenguin has left #tnnt 00:23 I usually use this to get 18/** strength via tins of spinach, and intrinsic teleportation by eating tinned tengu, but that last is insanely tedious 00:23 prevents golems 00:23 Arseniy: especially after all the other stars went awol 00:23 did anyone get my rogue npc for deathmatch? 00:23 don't count on that still working in 3.7 00:24 i had a bunch of cursed scrolls of create monster in open inv 00:24 …why are there more people achieving Boulder Pusher than Are You Feeling Lucky, that doesn't make any sense 00:24 Umbire is still rocking 00:24 K2: I saw someone beat a different deathmatch character by using the ?oCM against them 00:24 what's boulder pusher/are you feeling lucky 00:24 because they provided monsters to tame 00:24 k2: i saw that npc while spectating someone, and that technique worked. 00:24 That didn't look like an accident to me 00:24 hah 00:24 Loggers_VIII: Sokoban prize / Mines End prize 00:24 [US] [A]: Umbire (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 1653759 points, 47807 turns, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/U/Umbire/tnnt/dumplog/1700967285.tnnt.html 00:25 people are scared of mines end because of polytraps I find 00:25 gg Umbire! 00:25 grats umbire! 00:25 npc drew down hp, read the scroll, 13 more monsters showed up, caused some trouble to hero 00:25 And that's lucky number 7, achievements be damned. 00:25 gg 00:25 Burdening be damned likewise 00:25 Congrats! :) 00:25 yes, polytraps are what cause me to avoid the mines 00:25 Loggers_VIII: I am a huge amount more scared of Sokoban than Mines End in 3.6 and later 00:25 Mines End has a small chance of polymorphing something into a monster that you can't handle 00:25 First offline, 7th online, both Tourist gals. 00:25 Feels great. 00:25 but Sokoban just generates the monsters you're scared of naturally 00:26 realistically sokoban is more dangerous but I think the bad experiences people have with mines end are more memorable 00:26 soko doesn't have spiked pit traps 00:26 I feel like sokoban can be handled because it has such a good chokepoint. 00:26 -!- nurdglaw has quit [Quit: Client closed] 00:26 anselmus: indeed, it doesn't 00:26 Next year I'll try to ascend with equipment selected specifically for making PvP fight engaging. 00:26 Like 20 wands of create monster and pile of trice eggs. 00:26 the chokepoint is nice...but monsters still spawn behind you sometimes 00:26 sokoban just generates something that hits you, mines end turns you into sewer rats and sends arch liches after you 00:26 but it is no-teleport, which makes it much more dangerous than the comparable-difficulty levels in the main dungeon 00:26 my last ascension I got shafted to 4 levels below the Rogue level while looking for an ID source 00:26 Who else thought to bring an ice box for the demigod bar? 00:27 Nesta: oddly, I've actually never done that 00:27 never done that myself 00:27 it sounds like the sort of thing I would do (carrying one, that is, not wishing for it) 00:27 Now to relax with some variants 00:27 don't have wishes for one 00:27 oh yeah, now that tnnt over it's evilhack season until next November! 00:27 I did get Six Pack this tournament, but it was by using an ice box inside a deli 00:28 Loggers_VIII: including in June? :-) 00:28 yes :) 00:28 \o/ 00:28 ais you should play evilhack I think you would like it 00:28 I got it with a random icebox...but had to wish for some of the booze 00:28 Honestly I'd love to see how you regard evil balance 00:29 Not for sake of trainwreck watching, I wanna see what you two would actually agree on 00:29 [US] [D]: lambda (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 149 points, 628 turns, killed by an elven dagger 00:29 nesta: i brought an ice box to the dev team office. with both booze and fruit juice, to include everybody. 00:29 how bout just playing it for the fun factor and challenge 00:29 :P 00:29 Umbire: well I started AceHack as a reaction to variant devs making their variants too difficult 00:29 plus evilhack arguably has an easier early game than vanilla if you play your cards right (I think k2 might still think I'm crazy for this) 00:29 -!- robin has joined #tnnt 00:30 you are crazy 00:30 -!- efot has quit [Quit: Client closed] 00:30 cray cray 00:30 …and although I initially joined the devteam in the hope of improving the interface, most of what I've actually been doing is trying to prevent the other devs making NetHack too difficult 00:30 Loggers_VIII, I don't entirely disagree 00:30 no such thing as a too difficult variant! 00:30 You uh, sure about that? 00:30 Loggers_VIII: is this like Slash'EM in that it's hard unspoiled or if you don't use exploits, but easy to exploit? or in some other way? 00:30 vanilla? I suppose I can see the argument 00:30 Also not all that easy to exploit 00:30 I was doing my planes run during my annual performance review, the thing that decides whether I'll get any kind of raise or bonus or still have a job next year :-) Boss does all the talking anyway and I tune it out. The whole thing could have been an IM saying "no worries" but no. 00:31 I would like to join the dev team just to fix some bugs or help out somehow 00:31 does the devteam operate as a democracy? 00:31 ais523 I love evilhack because it's hard even when you do everything you can to make it easier 00:31 But like, game knowledge and execution has to be crisp 00:31 ggs all 00:31 or are the inmates running the asylum 00:31 it makes me think about what I do past like early game which is very refreshing after playing vanilla 00:32 anselmus: it's like, everyone's scared of any disagreement resolution technique ever being necessary and tries to avoid learning what the process would be 00:32 desertgreg you dont have to be devteam to contribute to nethack. several people submit PR's all the time 00:32 You can also just spot bugs 00:33 And incongruences and whatnot 00:33 PRs are always welcome as far as I can tell when it comes to correcting bugs/strange behavioe 00:33 *behavior 00:33 I don't use Github for NetHack, so when people make bug reports or pull requests I never see them – there are some devs that check them though I think 00:33 ais523: well is there someone that has higher authority or ownership? 00:33 ais523: is it a bug that the chromatic dragon can't fly? 00:33 I am also curious about how the devteam works 00:33 anselmus: I think I have an idea of what the process would be if there were a disagreement, but I'm not sure 00:33 ais523 my favorite thing from acehack is the starting menu for choosing your character. you can see your stats and inventory before actually starting the game. you can 'startscum' without actually startscumming 00:34 that should be in vanilla nethack 00:34 K2: that was *really* controversial 00:34 players thought it encouraged startscumming 00:34 whoever voted it down made a mistake 00:34 so far I've kept my mouth shut about the absence of shatter_floor_potions() and atomize_floor_items() OOPS 00:34 but, that controversy was primarily among the playerbase on IRC, not the actual devs 00:34 I haven't brought it to them, though, because the reaction on IRC was so mixed (some people do really like it, though) 00:35 if you look at it from a server op point of view, it would prevent a ton of junk ttyrecs/dumplogs/xlogfile entries 00:35 K2: I know, that was part of the motivation 00:35 well you have my support 100% to make it happen 00:35 K2 ais523 I think it would be a nice Conduct to be able to do that. 00:35 even from gameplay point of view, the only reason for that not being a thing is because you actively think startscummers should be "punished" by having to take a bunch of time to scum 00:35 I decided that what I would prefer would be a way to choose starting inventory within certain bounds, without rerolling 00:35 [US] [D]: Qwesti (Ran Elf Mal Cha), 1929 points, 2298 turns, killed by a dwarf lord 00:36 *for not wanting that to be a thing 00:36 but people were concerned that the UI might be overwhelming and/or time-consuming 00:36 I sure wish you could see the weights of items in your inventory. 00:36 and it doesn't handle starting stats well 00:36 I think trying to ascend every starting setup no matter what is fun, but I guess I don't particularly care about startscumming particularly 00:36 desertgreg: lots of variants do that, but it does leak some information that makes certain IDs easy 00:36 e.g. kicking boots 00:36 I really like the random starting point 00:36 * anselmus likes cdda's point pool allocation system 00:37 you can already get that information by picking up and dropping rocks and seeing when you are burdened 00:37 *cough*boh*cough* 00:37 one thing worth noting is that there are many people who incorrectly believe that because NetHack is a very hard game, the only way to win is to get maximally lucky 00:37 -!- xdminsy has joined #tnnt 00:37 those players tend to think that startscumming is therefore required for an ascension 00:37 I find it weird that in some respects the game goes out of its way to be realistic and cover every option, but in others, like weight, it goes out of its way to avoid it. 00:37 my top 3 QoL additions to vanilla would be (in no particular order): 00:37 show inventory item weight 00:37 drop a bag on an altar and see the BUC of its contents 00:37 after you kill x amount of enemies with a weapon, it reveals its enchantment 00:37 as such, changes that might accidentally encourage startscumming can have pretty terrible effects on unspoiled playres 00:38 I basically never start scum.  I don't even think about it really.  So many other things happen in the game. 00:38 Loggers_VIII: 3.7's "recently picked up items" option in the bagging menu achieves much of the same purpose as the first of those, a little more clunkily but probably more readily accepted by the devteam/playerbase 00:38 I guess the startscum concept does help to educate people about how not-very important luck is 00:38 desertgreg: I used to startscum in /dev/null/nethack, for the grue challenge 00:39 nah do the bag thing literally everyone would love it 00:39 the thing about trying whatever the rng gives you is that you learn a lot about how to overcome difficulties 00:39 str 8? learn how to train str 00:39 encumbrance shouldn't also penalize turncount 00:39 etc 00:39 Loggers_VIII: I did invent that thing originally, incidentally 00:39 100% agree 00:39 it has some non-obvious downsides that I had to change the mechanics of NH4 to handle 00:39 Noims recently qt and I calculated that 1 aum is roughly equivelent to 1 standard ounce 00:39 or 28.3 something something grams 00:39 although, I managed to slip (improved versions of) the same changes into vanilla recently without anyone being upset 00:40 K2: but if it equals an ounce it isn't arbitrary 00:40 K2 that's pretty cool. Never thought about that. 00:40 i said 'roughly' 00:40 but BUC in a bag prevents you from wasting scare monster, so it's not pure interface thing but also a bit of a nerf 00:40 Hmm, I just need to get better at knowing what to hoard and not hoard for the weight thing. 00:40 Arseniy: you mean the Ace/NH4 version buffs the player? 00:40 also give Orcus a spell where he summons shades :P 00:40 ever so slightly 00:41 right, yes 00:41 actually I know I put a :P at the end of that but I'm making it a serious suggestion that would be Sick as Fuck 00:42 I keep wondering if sea monsters will respawn on water levels 00:42 encumbrance shouldn't also penalize turncount ← what's the reason behind this one? I don't think it makes flavour sense, but can see an argument for a separate "action count" in the xlog 00:42 I quite like having to take stuff out of the bag. It's a little more realistic, given that you get the status by seeing if/how the item flashes. Can't see that in a bag. 00:42 Noims: in AceHack/NH4 you just look inside the bag 00:42 as you drop it onto the altar 00:42 phhhbt, what to play first 00:42 my original flavour was ridiculous, another dev suggested that and it made so much sense I changed the in-game messages to match 00:42 Was AceHack the one with multiplayer mode? 00:42 Well then we get to the 'just how big is that bag anyway' question. 00:42 ais523: you're already penalized with slower actions in combat 00:43 wop: sort-of; the multiplayer mode I wrote was an AceHack variant and has AceHack branding 00:43 we generally call it DeuceHack 00:43 you can fit infinite things inside of a sack so I'd say they are big 00:43 anselmus: but it's weird for the turn counter to not match the amount of time the player spends in-game 00:43 what was the original flavour? 00:44 the bag flashed multiple times and you remembered the sequence of the flashes 00:44 I think both recently pickup and the bag buc test is needed. 00:44 ais523: but it's not twice of slow, right? 00:44 twice as* 00:44 anselmus: the in-game turn counter matches the amount of time the monsters have spent moving 00:44 [US] [D]: lambda (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 246 points, 1835 turns, killed by a dwarf 00:44 good night folks, see you next year 00:45 night Arseniy 00:45 night o/ 00:45 -!- Loggers_VIII has quit [Quit: Client closed] 00:45 good night. 00:45 in 3.4.3 there are actually two separate turn counters, one for the monsters and one for the players, but they always have the same value as each other 00:45 in 3.6, they are combined because of that 00:45 in DeuceHack both counters exist and can actually have different values, because two players can reach a level at different points in their own personal times 00:45 -!- Arseniy has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:46 -!- HalNovek has quit [Quit: Client closed] 00:46 rare moment of annoyance with the amount of parked games I have 00:47 Thanks to Tina the Looney for exposing certain various exploits of the 3.[34].* time system. 00:47 who is that? 00:47 Tina the RGRN time lord 00:47 I have this strange feeling, like I want to play more NetHack. 00:47 The next tournament starts now right? right? 00:47 the 3.4.3 time system is one of the things I really specialised in knowing about, because of the TAS 00:48 right down to knowing the relative timings of certain critical things within a turn 00:48 although I'm not sure how much of it I remember nowadays 00:48 TD(ecember)NT 00:48 in 3.3 knights could basically run the whole game on free moves 00:48 i'm up to turn 337 in the TAS turn-by-turn document, it's really strange 00:49 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:45211 00:50 Furey: you're making it? 00:51 ais523: i never understood the speed system but obviously there's no monster counter when you're alone moving 00:51 anselmus: when you move, the other monsters on the level move 00:51 regardless of whether in or out of sight 00:51 and this is affected by burden level 00:51 wop: i'm not running any software, if that's what you mean, but i'm reading https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Agulp/Tool_Assisted_Speedrun 00:52 is there a wiki or something that explains that? 00:52 and when you change to another level, the monsters on that level are given a chance to catch up the time you spent offlevel 00:52 well how can it be consistent then between different monster speeds 00:52 e.g. if you are on dlvl 2 and injure a monster, go to dlvl 3 and move around, go back to dlvl 2, the monsters will heal proportionately to the amount of time you spent moving 00:52 and that's affected by burden level too 00:53 I've been wondering what "happens" on other levels when you're somewhere else for years. 00:53 monster speeds affect how often the monster gets to take actions, relative to the baseline speed 12 00:53 wop: basically, the game ignores it until you return to the level, and then simulates what happened in the meantime 00:53 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "3 blessed +2 silver daggers", on T:45236 00:53 what you said earlier seemed to suggest the counter was relative to the nearest monster 00:54 -!- K2 changed the topic on #tnnt to: Welcome to 'The November NetHack Tournament' :: public irc logs available at https://www.hardfought.org/tnnt/irclog :: https://tnnt.org :: TNNT 2023 has ended, thanks for playing! :: TNNT 2023 shirts now available to order! (Shipping in December) https://redd.it/17tuymy 00:54 ais523: does that include monster movement, or do they stay in the same places? 00:54 anselmus: ah, no, it's relative to a hypothetical speed-12 monster, and the monsters move relative to that 00:54 wop: they appear to stay in the same place 00:54 Furey: thanks for the link 00:55 anselmus: I suspect in early versions of Hack, all monsters were what would nowadays be called speed 12 00:55 and the terminology in the source code stayed the same when it changed 00:57 there just seems to be inconsistencies like a slower monster getting a free hit when you move next to you that doesn't correspond to turncount 00:57 I'd better head off. Thanks, all. Hope to see you in 340 days 23 hours. Have fun till then. 00:57 next to it* 00:57 anselmus: if you are burdened, this is caused by speed randomization 00:58 (it would be better is I could count, but you get what I mean)) Bye. 00:58 (or spel) 00:58 in 3.6.0 speed randomization was really visible, it'd cause monsters to double-turn you for no reason sometimes 00:58 cya Noims heh 00:58 Oh yeah, I can also focus on wiki work for a change 00:58 whee 00:58 later Noims 00:58 -!- Noims has left #tnnt 00:59 later in 3.6 I changed the speed randomization code so that a monster <= speed 12 could never double-turn a monster >= speed 12 00:59 (or a player) 00:59 but the randomization is still visible when comparing two monsters/players that are both slower than 12, or both faster than 12 00:59 that's what you're seeing there 01:00 -!- Waffa has joined #tnnt 01:00 I'm late but gg to everyone that played 01:01 i've always thought of actions as separate from time, or at least not perfectly related 01:03 anselmus: so the game always splits the game's timeline into turn-sized units, and then gives the player and each monster a number of actions on each of those turns 01:03 the number is always exactly 1 for speed 12 players/monsters; if faster or slower than 12 you could get a larger or smaller number 01:04 the sequence in which the players and monsters take their actions within an individual turn used to be really confusing and have at least one bug affecting it, but I think that may have been changed in 3.6 01:04 it is intended to be player's 1st action, monsters' 1st action, player's 2nd actions, monsters' 2nd action, etc. 01:05 which is what causes the "free turn" phenomenon where you move but no speed 12 monster does 01:05 when you have a speed source 01:06 but, the exact number of actions is randomized to prevent melee kiting 01:06 (except in the speed 12 case) 01:06 that is a bad 3.6 change 01:06 just get rid of encumbrance, too many manipulation involved 01:06 anselmus: so what happens if you try to pick up an item that would take you to burdened? you can't pick it up? 01:07 I think the conventional wisdom is "going around burdened is risky because it makes you lose turns" and whether you lose the turns consistently or randomly doesn't matter much for that 01:07 if you can't explain it to a 3 year old it should not implemented, period 01:08 lmao 01:09 I can explain anything to a 3-year-old. Doesn't mean they'll understand, or even listen, but I can certainly talk at them ;D 01:09 * Umbire emits words at karafruit 01:09 I think Umbire approves of my comment. 01:09 [US] [D]: klipto (Sam Hum Mal Law), 10903 points, 8347 turns, killed by a watchman 01:09 ah, the swap chest is sapient pearwood 01:09 it all makes sense 01:09 $who 01:09 wop: [US] mracich mikew999 OtsMcGee jackbunny Urc | [AU] No current players | [EU] No current players 01:10 Last TNNT players slowly dying off. 01:10 Honestly I wanna do sling Arc now in honor of tjw's son 01:11 Should just make a list of shit I wanna do 01:11 what if i log in and the server says "pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha 2024" and there's 487 achievements 01:12 -!- Staengia has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:12 I'm not sure if pre-alpha is technically possible for a project that can be compiled and run at all 01:12 because alphas don't have to be feature-complete 01:12 "pre-alpha", read, "an idea exists but we haven't written any code at all or, for that matter, developed that idea" 01:13 so most of my ideas then 01:14 according to Unicode, the letter before α is ΰ 01:15 -!- wop has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15 oh yeah speaking of funny glyphs i hope that curses/terminfo/??? bug gets fixed so i can spectate people with curses interfaces! 01:15 Furey: which one? 01:15 the character repeat issue? 01:16 yes, character repeat, the line drawing chars for boxes in curses interface don't render in some ttyrec players and some terminals for spectating 01:17 my guess is that this is a curses thing rather than anything in NetHack itself – curses may be relying on terminfo to know whether or not it can do that safely 01:19 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:46153 01:20 yeah my idea is somehow for the nethack setup code to somehow nerf that capability when it initializes curses, so curses will always emit '----------' rather than 'repeat 10 - fuckyouifyoucantdothis' 01:20 however there's several sets of moving parts in that stack, gonna take somebody to dive in, for a solid fix 01:21 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:46235 01:21 Furey: in NH4 I dodged the problem by writing my own curses-alike that ignores the terminal type altogether 01:21 and just tries to emit codes that all terminals handle the same way 01:22 uh, are all terminals common enough so you can just do that? 01:23 Furey: there are some basic codes that all common terminals handle equally 01:23 and some which are less consistent 01:24 I decided it was OK for NH4's tty interface to drop support for terminals that used non-VT100-compatible codes because those haven't been relevant in over 30 years 01:24 (also there is a standard for terminal codes nowadays, but it seems that most terminal authors work out the codes via experimentation rather than reading the standard, so you get nonstandard reactions to many codes) 01:26 -!- xdminsy has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:27 anyways, stepping up one level, that's a huge user experience issue, and it's gonna be thorny to fix 01:27 So my 1969 IBM 3270 terminal needs to be upgrade now? 01:27 -!- xdminsy has joined #tnnt 01:28 no EBCDIC support? 01:28 Nesta: there are standard codes for telling terminals which character encoding you are sending in 01:28 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:13901 01:29 and many terminals do actually understand these and adapt – this is the easiest way to get gnome-terminal to do IBMgraphics 01:29 In all seriousness I really do sometimes miss my (actual) DEC VT220. The keyboard on that thing was the best I ever used. 01:29 there is a code to specify EBCDIC but most terminals don't support it 01:29 I don't know whether or not EBCDIC terminals understand the code for ASCII 01:29 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:46622 01:29 ais523: there was a time when I would have gotten paid big bucks to answer a question like that :-) 01:30 ais523 but my career predates the home computing scene of the early 90s entirel 01:30 * Nesta predates color tv broadcasts 01:30 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:46648 01:31 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) removed DoktorL's magic marker (0:69) from the swap chest, on T:13915 01:31 That's the one that gets me and makes me feel old. I remember well when the 3rd of our 3 TV channels went to color. 01:31 whoa 01:32 In my city, you couldn't have your own private phone line, you had to share it with 3 other houses. 01:33 my father got around that restriction by making our house into a real estate office. And put me to work answering the phones. 01:33 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) performed the invocation, on T:46802 01:33 I think a lot of kids (people under 60) don't believe me about the 4-party line thing. 01:34 I think you only have to be about 40 to be in a position to know about party lines, even if you never used them 01:36 one of my kids is over 40 and doesn't believe 90% of my stories 01:38 The glory of POTS circuit switching 01:41 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed the high priest of Moloch, on T:46929 01:41 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:46933 01:43 I grew up with B&W TV mostly because we couldn't afford a colour set 01:44 and we only had the B&W set because my father wanted to watch the moon landings 01:45 The moon landing was a major event for me. I followed really closely from the Mercury program on 01:45 still do 01:45 now i gotta go do all the stuff i neglected bc playing nh 01:45 We all do 🙂 01:45 I barely recall seeing one of the apollo missions leaving the moon 01:49 -!- martinp_ is now known as martinp 01:50 [US] disperse (Pri Hum Fem Law) found kitten, on T:2179 01:50 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Yeenoghu, on T:47566 01:51 kids (under 60) hahahah 01:52 hey i'm in my 50's but it's ok cuz i'm a kid and can do all the things I did in my 20's yay 01:52 :P 01:54 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor (5 times), on T:47934 01:57 [US] disperse (Pri Hum Fem Law) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3189 01:59 [US] [D]: disperse (Pri Hum Fem Law), 1988 points, 3281 turns, killed by a gold golem, while fainted from lack of food 01:59 -!- Furey has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:59 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered the Planes, on T:48526 02:00 Do most people really carry 3+ lizard corpses when ascending?  I have never even used a corpse but ran into 3-4 in the arena (paralysis + chick did the trick) 02:01 stagnate: you need to carry one and people tend to pick them up out of habit 02:01 it's easy to get to 3 absentmindedly 02:01 Yeah I usually stash them because of the weight but I guess that makes sense. 02:03 [US] [D]: post163 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 7 points, 114 turns, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 02:05 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) genocided class ;, on T:48679 02:08 [US] disperse (Pri Hum Fem Law) destroyed lambda's ghost, the former Rambler, on T:490 02:09 How long is tnnt available to complete a run (even if scoring is closed)? 02:09 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) destroyed schnaader's ghost, the former Woman-at-arms, on T:15918 02:11 Think you get up to a week? 02:13 I'll have to decide how to proceed, given that I started a dig for victory and achievement sprint with an hour left :D 02:14 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Death, on T:48948 02:18 -!- arahael_ has joined #tnnt 02:20 [US] [D]: quervo1 (Bar Hum Mal Neu), 171 points, 410 turns, killed by a dwarf 02:20 -!- NestElf has joined #tnnt 02:21 -!- NestElf has quit [Client Quit] 02:21 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Pestilence, on T:49005 02:24 [US] [D]: quervo1 (Bar Hum Mal Neu), 436 points, 687 turns, killed by a dwarf 02:25 stagnate: the portal says " You have until Dec 8th to finish any existing games." 02:27 [US] Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Famine, on T:49054 02:27 Thanks, martinp 02:32 [US] [D]: quervo1 (Bar Hum Mal Neu), 544 points, 1034 turns, killed by a gnome, while sleeping 02:38 [US] [A]: Urc (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 2367856 points, 49101 turns, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/U/Urc/tnnt/dumplog/1700430642.tnnt.html 02:39 [US] disperse (Pri Hum Fem Law) destroyed jmcunx's ghost, the former Empiric, on T:3807 02:40 geeg 02:43 [US] Scuzzery (Bar Orc Fem Cha) wished for "blessed ring of conflict", on T:34575 02:43 [US] Scuzzery (Bar Orc Fem Cha) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of genocide", on T:34575 02:44 [US] Scuzzery (Bar Orc Fem Cha) wished for "blessed magic marker", on T:34577 02:46 -!- Elenmirie_ has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 02:46 [US] Scuzzery (Bar Orc Fem Cha) made her first artifact wish - "the master key of thievery", on T:34587 02:47 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 02:47 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) had Magicbane bestowed upon him by Anhur, on T:16959 02:49 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed greased fireproof +2 cloak of protection", on T:16968 02:51 -!- oh6 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:56 gg dba. You were under a time crunch! 02:57 -!- Waffa has quit [Quit: Waffa] 03:03 6' 03:04 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 03:13 -!- stagnate has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:17 -!- arahael_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:19 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) completed the DevTeam Quest, on T:18626 03:25 [US] mracich (Val Hum Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (class L), on T:15093 03:26 [US] mracich (Val Hum Fem Neu) genocided class ;, on T:15095 03:29 [US] [D]: allanb (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 2628 points, 2853 turns, killed by a wand 03:30 [US] mracich (Val Hum Fem Neu) genocided class h, on T:15100 03:32 -!- karafruit has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 03:35 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 03:36 my cat joined the chat again 03:36 you have a 6-foot cat? 03:37 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) had Dragonbane bestowed upon him by Lugh, on T:37195 03:41 -!- terrapin has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:43 she's opinionated and has a knack for doing things like setting airplane mode (I don't even know what key combo that is) or for ctrl-v pasting into chats 03:45 -!- terrapin has joined #tnnt 03:55 [US] allanb (Mon Hum Mal Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3122 03:58 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) had Werebane bestowed upon him by Lugh, on T:37584 04:01 Nesta: all cats are opinionated. They know they run the world; we humans just exist for their convenience. Whenever we pay too much attention to the lighted screens, they remind us where our priorities should be: on them! 😼 04:03 Thank you to the TNNT admins! It was a great year! 04:04 -!- robin has left #tnnt 04:04 Weirdly, despite playing more games than last year, I had fewer achievements. Clearly I wasn't paying quite enough attention. But I DID manage to meet one of my goals for this year: playing at least 2 games of 1000+ turns in each role. (Last year I didn't meet any of my goals; this year I at least met that one.) 04:12 [US] [D]: allanb (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 2556 points, 4236 turns, killed by a hallucinogen-distorted soldier ant 04:21 -!- jientho has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26 -!- cathartes has joined #tnnt 04:37 -!- Bleeko has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:43 -!- a1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 04:45 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) completed the DevTeam Quest, on T:40487 04:47 i wonder if a team could do 325/325 achievements in 2024 04:48 every achievement got achieved by at least one player I think 04:48 all achievements doesn't seem so ridiculous, but some of them are only suited to very long games 04:49 like Gotta Kill 'em All 04:50 goota kill 'em all is tough because the mindflayers keep interfering with the identify all foo achievements 04:51 in 2022 i broke my wand of nothing (for that ach), then a mindflayer tagged me, so i forgot about nothing. i tried to polypile nothing and failed. so i wished for a wand of nothing. 04:51 flayers don't unidentify items in 3.7, so that'll be easier when the next version coes out 04:51 Furey: I think there's an NHQDB quote for that 04:52 there is a nhqdb quote. it's my quote. :) 04:53 https://nhqdb.alt.org/?4025 05:11 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 05:13 -!- engelson has quit [Quit: Quit] 05:16 [US] OpticSugar (Arc Hum Mal Neu) found kitten, on T:5201 05:17 [US] OpticSugar (Arc Hum Mal Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:5213 05:18 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 05:20 [US] [D]: OpticSugar (Arc Hum Mal Neu), 4531 points, 5489 turns, killed by a dagger 05:25 [US] [D]: OpticSugar (Arc Hum Mal Neu), 17 points, 238 turns, killed by a succubus 05:48 $time 05:48 xdminsy: 2023-12-01 05:48:43 UTC. The 2023 tournament is OVER! 05:48 Ah over nah. 05:55 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 05:56 [US] jackbunny (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:19220 05:59 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 06:15 -!- raisse has joined #tnnt 06:18 [US] jackbunny (Val Dwa Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:20412 06:19 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed the invisible Ixoth, on T:45853 06:19 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:45854 06:24 -!- anselmus has left #tnnt 06:26 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 06:36 -!- cathartes has quit [Quit: fly away] 06:37 [US] [D]: OpticSugar (Arc Hum Mal Neu), 100 points, 1509 turns, killed by a large mimic 06:43 [US] [D]: OpticSugar (Arc Hum Mal Neu), 148 points, 560 turns, killed by a giant rat 06:46 -!- Elenmirie_ has joined #tnnt 06:46 -!- Elenmirie_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48 -!- desertgreg has quit [Quit: Client closed] 06:57 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:05 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed Medusa, on T:48034 07:05 -!- Nesta has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:11 -!- klepto has quit [Quit: Client closed] 07:18 -!- mobileuser has joined #tnnt 07:19 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) destroyed tjw's ghost, the former Priest, on T:48256 07:31 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) killed Medusa, on T:20213 07:36 -!- fakepass has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:55 -!- joes has joined #tnnt 08:00 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) polymorphed his first object, on T:49189 08:01 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Client closed] 08:09 -!- mobileuser has joined #tnnt 08:25 [EU] [D]: abacus66 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 712 points, 930 turns, killed by a rothe (and 18 other games not reported) 08:25 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) performed his first genocide (class L), on T:49714 08:41 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) genocided class h, on T:50217 08:42 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) genocided class R, on T:50219 09:39 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Client closed] 09:48 -!- kewldewd has joined #tnnt 09:49 [US] Shunya (Val Dwa Fem Law) made her first wish - "blessed The Magic Mirror of Merlin", on T:9140 09:50 [US] kewldewd (Bar Orc Mal Cha) changed form for the first time by mimicking a pile of gold, on T:4523 09:54 -!- mobileuser has joined #tnnt 10:04 -!- cbus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06 -!- cbus has joined #tnnt 10:11 -!- kewldewd has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:26 [US] Shunya (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:9447 10:34 -!- stagnate has joined #tnnt 10:52 [US] stagnate (Sam Hum Fem Law) bribed Baalzebub with 15 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:48482 10:53 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:03 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Client closed] 11:05 -!- cbus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:06 -!- cbus has joined #tnnt 11:10 -!- mobileuser has joined #tnnt 11:13 [US] stagnate (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed Juiblex, on T:49335 11:13 [US] tinklebear (Sam Hum Fem Law) entered Gehennom, on T:39256 11:16 -!- raisse has joined #tnnt 11:27 -!- cbus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30 -!- cbus has joined #tnnt 11:36 [US] stagnate (Sam Hum Fem Law) bribed Asmodeus with 29 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:50858 11:43 -!- joes has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:05 -!- stagnate has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:08 [EU] Raisse (Arc Dwa Fem Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:1958 12:09 [EU] [D]: Raisse (Arc Dwa Fem Law), 772 points, 2009 turns, killed by a bugbear 12:09 okay, that was it for this year, I wanted to put some spellbooks in the swap chest but the bugbear was in the way 12:12 -!- HalNovek has joined #tnnt 12:15 -!- Bleeko has joined #tnnt 12:15 -!- xdminsy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17 -!- xdminsy has joined #tnnt 12:19 -!- HalNovek has quit [Quit: Client closed] 12:34 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:36 $time 12:36 nabru: 2023-12-01 12:36:21 UTC. The 2023 tournament is OVER! 12:48 -!- Bleeko has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:48 -!- Bleeko has joined #tnnt 12:50 -!- Bleeko has quit [Client Quit] 12:51 -!- Bleeko has joined #tnnt 13:02 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 13:06 :( 13:06 [US] mfabt (Ran Hum Fem Cha) made her first wish - "stamped scroll", on T:1 13:11 [US] [D]: allanb (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 2603 points, 2313 turns, burned by a tower of flame 13:11 [US] [D]: ellone (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 398 points, 537 turns, killed by a crossbow bolt (and 6 other games not reported) 13:11 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 13:16 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 13:18 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 13:21 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 13:32 [US] Shunya (Val Dwa Fem Law) was crowned "The Hand of Elbereth" by Tyr, on T:10286 13:46 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 13:49 [US] nirol0 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:33267 13:49 [US] nirol0 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:33275 13:50 [US] tinklebear (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed Asmodeus, on T:42094 13:53 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 13:54 [US] nirol0 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) performed the invocation, on T:33570 13:57 -!- stagnate has joined #tnnt 14:03 -!- tinklebear has joined #tnnt 14:04 -!- Loggers_VIII has joined #tnnt 14:10 -!- Loggers_VIII has quit [Quit: Client closed] 14:10 [US] nirol0 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) killed the invisible high priestess of Moloch, on T:34042 14:11 [US] nirol0 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:34043 14:19 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:23 Reddit: TNNT 2023 has ended https://redd.it/188d2cy 14:25 -!- oh6 has joined #tnnt 14:33 -!- terrapin has quit [Quit: Cheers!] 15:04 =( 15:10 -!- Waffa has joined #tnnt 15:13 -!- joes has joined #tnnt 15:22 K2 qt there still might be a problem with trophies. yesterday we had Lesser Priest. but even after I fixed yesterday's discovered error in my script that tracks that, we could not see a Dinos game that had Pri-Neu-Hum, so tjw played one quickly on au.   I will maybe look into this in a few days (life is intruding ATM) to see what other Dino game 15:22 might have been thought to have qualified for that combo (soko + mines) 15:26 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) killed the Dark One, on T:22626 15:26 oh I thought you said after you fixed that bug, it did show it as being accomplished 15:26 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:22629 15:26 in your script 15:26 -!- kewldewd has joined #tnnt 15:35 [US] tinklebear (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed Juiblex, on T:42713 15:39 -!- Nesta has joined #tnnt 15:39 -!- kewldewd has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 15:54 [US] [D]: OpticSugar (Arc Hum Mal Neu), 94 points, 2248 turns, killed by a grid bug 16:04 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) entered Gehennom, on T:51403 16:10 [US] tinklebear (Sam Hum Fem Law) bribed Baalzebub with 1 zorkmid for safe passage, on T:43229 16:15 [EU] abacus66 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:4322 16:15 -!- karafruit has joined #tnnt 16:17 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 16:19 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 16:23 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:23606 16:26 [US] disperse (Pri Hum Mal Law) destroyed Spider74656's ghost, the former Skirmisher, on T:6264 16:35 [EU] abacus66 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) found kitten, on T:5479 16:39 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) made his first wish - "blessed fixed +2 gray dragon scale mail", on T:11247 16:40 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) performed his first genocide (disenchanter), on T:11309 16:41 tjw: you got a cooperative throne? 16:45 yep 16:45 [EU] abacus66 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) became literate by reading a book, on T:5720 16:45 Actually the wish was from a WoW I found in a shop 16:47 -!- xdminsy has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:47 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed spellbook of identify", on T:11605 16:48 [EU] [D]: Raisse (Arc Dwa Fem Law), 514 points, 1626 turns, killed by a jackal 16:48 -!- xdminsy has joined #tnnt 16:48 │The pony devours an uncursed apple.                                             ││Rings 16:48 │ 16:48 │You hear some noises.  You have a sad feeling for a moment, then it passes 16:48 One turn, and not because there was a bunch of activity :) 16:48 that was a very short lease of life as a pet 16:50 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) made his first artifact wish - "blessed fixed +2 Grayswandir", on T:11782 16:53 -!- xdminsy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:55 Very much 17:02 -!- kewldewd has joined #tnnt 17:02 -!- joes1 has joined #tnnt 17:04 -!- joes has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:04 @K2 how long do I have to finish up my current TNNT game? My Orcish Ranger made it to the VS, but I didn’t have time to prep and complete the ascension run. She’s ascend-able, though. (And I’ve never done a Ranger before.) 17:05 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Client closed] 17:05 Message when you log in says Dec 8, I believe. Widmerpool-my-cat 17:08 -!- ais523 has joined #tnnt 17:11 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 17:14 -!- elenmirie has joined #tnnt 17:18 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 17:21 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 17:21 -!- stagnate has quit [Quit: Client closed] 17:22 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) completed the DevTeam Quest, on T:14005 17:23 -!- Umbire has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 17:24 -!- kewldewd has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:31 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +2 pair of speed boots", on T:14572 17:32 [EU] [D]: abacus66 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 12254 points, 6269 turns, killed by a bolt of lightning (and 2 other games not reported) 17:39 -!- stagnate has joined #tnnt 17:41 -!- raisse has joined #tnnt 17:48 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 18:01 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 18:06 -!- fakepass has joined #tnnt 18:26 -!- chao has joined #tnnt 18:32 -!- mobileuser has joined #tnnt 18:33 [US] [D]: charlie14690 (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 1920 points, 2866 turns, killed by a giant beetle 18:34 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 18:36 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) destroyed the green slime, and former Warrior, on T:54778 18:38 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 18:38 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) had Vorpal Blade bestowed upon him by Camaxtli, on T:15358 18:47 -!- joes1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:55 -!- chao has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:56 -!- chao has joined #tnnt 19:09 -!- chao has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.8] 19:25 [US] eitlarry (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) removed Urc's wand of teleportation (0:5) from the swap chest, on T:23666 19:31 K2: Thanks for running the tournament, it's been great fun!! Ordering a T-shirt now :) 19:31 yay \o/ 19:32 and thank YOU 19:32 glad you had a fun time 19:32 all y'all 19:32 ^ plural of y'all 19:32 thanks a lot K2 19:32 legend /o/ \o\ 19:33 pffft 19:33 -!- theWeaver has left #tnnt 19:33 if you'd stop changing your handle every 10 min, people would know you wrote the majority of the new scoreboard 19:33 ahhhh she left 19:34 -!- Loggers_VIII has joined #tnnt 19:35 -!- dbanethacker has joined #tnnt 19:38 -!- Loggers_VIII32 has joined #tnnt 19:39 -!- Loggers_VIII has quit [Quit: Client closed] 19:39 -!- Loggers_VIII32 is now known as Loggers_VIII 19:41 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:46 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 19:50 -!- raisse has joined #tnnt 19:51 oh I have to borrow spouse's credit card to order a T-shirt so that will to be tomorrow 19:52 *have to be (because she's gone to bed and I don't want to do it wihtout asking) 19:59 -!- martinp_ has joined #tnnt 20:02 -!- martinp has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:07 K2 I think it's "alls y'all" 20:07 I'm with K2 20:07 all y'all 20:10 [US] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) found kitten, on T:2428 20:11 [US] sirteapot (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed Orcus, on T:56619 20:12 -!- oh6 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 20:17 i grew up in redneck country. it's definitely 'all y'all' 20:18 [US] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3278 20:19 -!- Furey has joined #tnnt 20:20 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) killed the Minion of Huhetotl, on T:17497 20:20 [US] [D]: dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu), 2548 points, 3359 turns, killed by a human mummy 20:20 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:17498 20:25 [US] [D]: dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu), 266 points, 450 turns, poisoned by a water moccasin 20:28 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Suddenly, Raisse disappears out of sight.] 20:28 -!- stagnate has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:29 -!- raisse has joined #tnnt 20:29 [US] [D]: dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu), 125 points, 954 turns, killed by a water elemental 20:32 -!- crunchbubba has joined #tnnt 20:32 -!- ais523 has joined #tnnt 20:39 -!- martinp has joined #tnnt 20:42 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:43 -!- martinp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:56 Is the swap chest deactivated? 20:57 yeah swegen got to eat all the leftovers because he was the last to ascend with a 5 second on the clock buzzer beater 20:57 i have no idea 20:58 Leftover GDSM sandwiches for a week 20:58 aw man I only got the scroll of light salad 21:02 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 21:04 [US] disperse (Pri Hum Mal Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a flaming sphere, on T:7586 21:09 docpi: no, here is the current US swapchest contents: https://x0.at/guu8.txt 21:11 * Bleeko stirs his coffee with a wand of speed monster 21:15 So there was a URL for peeking all along? 21:16 lol Bleeko 21:17 no, I have an account parked at the US swapchest and semi-manually do that (semi-manually because I copy/paste the list and use cut and grep) 21:18 [US] disperse (Pri Hum Mal Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:8690 21:19 I feel only _appropriately_ neutral after hafing sacrificed a white unicorn corpes?? 21:19 I feel only _appropriately_ neutral after having sacrificed a white unicorn corpse?? 21:20 That means you're not at max Luck/alignment I think? 21:20 [US] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) made her first wish - "blessed fixed greased +3 gray dragon scale mail", on T:1701 21:20 Yup, do more neutraling 21:24 -!- Loggers_VIII has quit [Quit: Client closed] 21:26 [US] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) destroyed charlie14690's ghost, the former Rogue, on T:1953 21:28 [US] nirol0 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor (5 times), on T:34923 21:30 [US] disperse (Pri Hum Mal Law) removed Nesta's blessed +5 robe from the swap chest, on T:9635 21:42 -!- oh6 has joined #tnnt 21:51 how many of the items on that list are from non-US players? 21:51 doesn't seem like a lot of the ones I immediately recognize without looking it up 21:52 [US] nirol0 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) entered the Planes, on T:36397 21:54 ok I went down the list and of the 29 items, only 3 of them are from other servers 21:54 as far as I can tell anyway 21:56 the last-hour swap chest donations grind war may have thrown off the statistics somewhat 21:56 …especially because some of us were playing on weird servers as a consequence of it 21:59 hey ais523 21:59 yeah that sounds possible 21:59 [US] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:3446 22:02 [US] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) removed Urc's uncursed spellbook of identify from the swap chest, on T:3537 22:03 qt: I know that I put three items into both the US and AU swap chests right near the end of the tournament, but my clanmates were actively trying to take them back out 22:04 incidentally, is there a mechanic that removes untaken items from the swap chests over time? they didn't seem to contain as many items as they should have done 22:04 -!- oh6 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:04 yeah 22:05 I think there's some kind of script that every so often, removes all but the most recent 30 donations 22:05 ^ this 22:11 [US] [D]: dbanethacker (Val Hum Mal Neu), 10910 points, 3869 turns, killed by a forest centaur 22:12 ais523: what do you think about removing the "you learn more about your items by examining them" message in 3.7? it's not that unintuitive a change that it really needs to notify the player it's happening all the time. pretty much the first time it happens across any game, you'll get what the new rule is even without a message (at least this has been the case historically in variants with the same 22:12 change and no message). 22:13 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 22:14 several people were wailing and gnashing their teeth about how spammy it is earlier today in #hardfought, which is why I bring it up again (not sure if you saw my mention about the same thing shortly after you committed it, I moved on from it pretty quickly) 22:15 qt: I think I need to playtest it myself to figure out if it's too spammy or not 22:16 there should at least be an option to hide it 22:16 Noisytoot: there's MSGTYPE already, isn't there? 22:17 I just don't really understand what the benefit of the message is, other than "hey, just so you know, !bknown and bknown items can merge now" -- but it's served that purpose after the first time you see it in any game of 3.7 22:17 it is quite unintuitive for new players, to the extent that other roguelikes with similar mechanics often have a message 22:18 I've seen new players confused by two identical unidentified items stacking, wondering how they could tell them apart 22:19 (and experienced players get confused by some corner cases, e.g. "I have a big stack of trice corpses in an ice box, I take one out, stone some monsters, and put it back in – now if I take it out again, am I taking out the newest or oldest corpse?") 22:20 are there specific cases where the message comes up over and over again? I already suppressed the message in the most obvious case (picking up projectiles that a monster picked up after you threw them) 22:21 are new players really so confused they need it reexplained to them every time they pick up an item? 22:21 my guess as to the spammiest would be food rations stack-BCUing as uncursed, but as I said, will need playtesting to figure out the problem 22:21 qt: it isn't every time you pick up an item, only when you stack an IDed item with an unIDed item 22:21 I know 22:21 I mean every time the effect happens 22:22 it's just totally unlike every other stack merge even though it's not a big departure from other stack merging rules 22:22 I don't see a problem with the message happening every time, unless it does things like pushing messages off the screen or causing --More--s 22:22 you get "f - 2 uncursed food rations" every time, after all 22:23 actually, this may be forcing too many --More--s at some terminal sizes, which could be a problem 22:23 it probably will cause --More--s at the min recommended size I think 22:23 depending on what items you're picking up 22:23 yeah 22:24 I think there may be some way to cause a message to not force --More--s and just be scrolled off the screen if it doesn't fit 22:24 -!- mobileuser has left #tnnt 22:24 but, it might be an NH4 thing rather than NH3 22:24 it just seems like it's taking up a lot of screen real estate for this one specific merging case, even though the case is not a radical departure from other merging rules (like merging named and unnamed items). if people can figure those other things out without constant messaging, I think they can figure this out. 22:24 from your examples/explanation it sounds like it's motivated by stack merging in general being kind of weird 22:25 stack merging is really unintuitive if you aren't used to it 22:25 …and sometimes even if you are, in cases that you aren't used to 22:26 eyup 22:27 anyway, there's a difference between "players can figure out the mechanics by observation" and "players can figure out the flavour by observation" 22:27 yeah, it can be weird. but of all the mechanics in nethack which have traditionally trusted the player to figure it out, it just seems like an odd one to pick out as needing constant reminders that it's happening (and only for one specific kind of merging, even though it sounds like you think the most confusing cases aren't this one) 22:28 qt: it's not really a reminder that it's happening, but an indicator 22:28 -!- oh6 has joined #tnnt 22:29 in most cases where the state of an object changes, you get some message 22:29 yeah that's a good point 22:30 the main exception is object age changing due to stacking, mostly because it doesn't make flavour sense and is just that way for implementation convenience 22:30 I just don't think it's worth adding --More-- to common pickups of food or ammunition 22:30 qt: for ammunition that you've fired, the message doesn't appear 22:30 so I suspect food may be the main problem case 22:31 I know, but I mean picking up daggers in the mines, picking up elven daggers, etc 22:31 darts from dart traps 22:31 the message seems actively useful there? it's telling you that the darts you picked up are of a type you already have 22:31 which, you didn't know before you picked them up 22:32 [US] [D]: dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu), 387 points, 2057 turns, killed by a giant mimic 22:32 but I just want to pick up the items and get out of there, not have to press Space sometimes and sometimes not depending on whether or not they are the same type as an item i've picked up 22:33 the real fix to this is to play using a windowport with a multiline message area, but I agree that extra --More--s can be a problem 22:33 I get your point though, there are definitely aspects to it that I was not considering earlier 22:33 I would probably focus on the --More--s as the issue, rather than the message itself 22:34 how does corpses with different ages stacking actually work? 22:34 Noisytoot: the ages get averaged 22:34 this is actually the mechanism behind the d4294967296$d4294967296$ method of crashing 3.4.3 22:34 oh man actually this is going to ruin lizard corpse saccing lol 22:35 you won't be able to #offer a lizard corpse bcause it'll merge with the one in open inventory and become too old. tragic :'( 22:35 you make two stacks of zero gold pieces, and the game tries to average zero things and divides by zero 22:35 cool 22:35 qt: even in existing NetHack you have to work around that sometimes, I was doing it this tournament 22:35 yeah. I don't actually have a problem with it 22:35 but yes, this sort of thing means that any changes to the stacking rules can cause problems 22:35 -!- elenmirie has joined #tnnt 22:36 xnh has had this mechanic for years and it's really easy to adapt to 22:36 I really like it actually 22:36 same 22:36 I just think the messages are nuts 22:36 ;) 22:36 in NH4, named and un-named items don't stack, that was added as a response to more lenient stacking rules as a way to give the player a way to turn lenient stacking off 22:36 although I'm not sure I like that either 22:37 $lastgame charlie14690 22:37 tjw: [US] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/c/charlie14690/tnnt/dumplog/1700762779.tnnt.html | [AU] https://au.hardfought.org/userdata/c/charlie14690/tnnt/dumplog/1700763064.tnnt.html 22:37 that's interesting. yeah seems like there are pros and cons to that 22:38 my reaction off the top of my head would be that I think the "named +0" or "named +1" merge benefit is a lot more common than failing to sacrifice because 2 lizard corpses stacked 22:38 (or some similar thing) 22:38 that's my current reaction too 22:38 and normally you have a bag of some kind before lizards turn up 22:38 yeah. there are ways to work around unwanted merging, and it's a pretty niche issue 22:39 there are basically 2 corpse types you'd be carrying around long enough that the average would instantly invalidate the sacrifice, and neither is really a high value sacrifice anyway 22:40 I don't know if there are other scenarions you would want to avoid a merge of !bknown and bknown but the only one I remember from play experience is the corpse thing 22:41 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41 -!- ais523 has joined #tnnt 22:43 I may not have read the backscroll in full, and I have not played a lot of 3.7 games... 22:44 ...but you can prevent corpses from stacking by naming them 22:44 (at least, in pre-3.7 you can) 22:44 I thought if you had a named item and picked up an unnamed one, it would stack with the named one 22:44 not with corpses, qt 22:44 does it work differently for corpses in particular? 22:44 yes 22:45 oh that's a good solution then 22:45 name your uncursed lizard corpse #safetyfirst, and the next one you pick up will not stack with it 22:45 I guess the only issue with it is that it's not really what you'd expect, because you wouldn't guess that corpses are some kind of exception to the normal rules 22:46 well, the "normal rules" take a little learning, too 22:46 but I don't really see how that can screw someone over (I can't think of a scenario where you would _need_ corpses to stack) 22:46 stacking and stack-IDing is such a huge rabbit hole 22:46 I happen to enjoy the status quo vanilla stacking rules 22:46 qt: there is a limit of 52 items + gold in inventory, this has mattered for me in some games 22:47 and would/will find changes to them uncomfortably disorienting 22:47 stack merging saves so much power on identify spells you don't even know 22:47 there was a game where I had so many unIDed items I was trying to fit them all into open inventory (in case I got a full-ID with ID effects) without becoming too vulnerable if monsters spawned 22:47 yeah I guess that would be the one case where it could cause a problem, if for some reason you've named your lichen corpse 22:47 Umbire: part of it was intended to save early-game turns running back to the Minetown altar 22:47 and you are trying to pick up more food pre-bag 22:48 I think it's a solid change. it plays really smoothly in xnethack I think 22:48 flavourwise named and anonymous items shouldn't stack, because flavourwise the name is physically written on the object 22:48 yeah the way "naming" is supposed to work is a little bizarre and inconsistent lol 22:48 in dnethack corpses don't merge 22:49 you can't split stacks by #adjust in dnethack, I think that's a 3.6 thing 22:49 #adjust with count is a really good improvement 22:49 yeah 22:49 there are a lot of great QOL changes post 3.4.3 22:49 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Quit: Client closed] 22:49 ais523, I think that "the name is physically written on the token object" is contradicted by vanilla behaviour 22:50 tinklebear: it definitely is self-contradictory 22:50 ...so I suspect "flavourwise" is doing a lot of work 22:50 but your "hand slips" when you try to name an artifact so somehow you're supposed to be writing something 22:50 except that the mechanics in every other way make no sense if that's true 22:50 lol 22:51 tinklebear: amnesia is a clue 22:51 -!- oh6 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:51 i heard it's scary I haven't played it 22:51 one thing that confused me for ages is as to whether rings are worn above or below gloves; I think in 3.6 they are consistently below 22:52 when you #name a stackable item "P", you are saying "There is something special about this subsort of crossbow bolts (enchant weapon scrolls, or whatever), and we're going to call it P-ness 22:52 * tinklebear pun unintended 22:52 it also breaks illiterate but only if you're naming an artifact iirc? 22:53 whoa, really, qt? 22:53 not 100% sure I'm remembering that right 22:53 it's all self-contradictory in various ways but I think trying to make it all consistent flavorwise would make it less fun mechanically 22:54 YASI: you can write scrolls by #naming a blank piece of paper, but they don't work properly because you didn't use magic ink 22:54 I think it breaks illiterate in general 22:54 [US] Shunya (Val Dwa Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:12191 22:54 creating artifact or no 22:54 maybe I'm misremembering then 22:54 or I feel like that should be the behavior 22:54 wait, what breaks illiterate? naming things? 22:54 I might be as well 22:54 tbf I strongly suspect that the real reason #name-y isn't removed by amnesia is that would be technically difficult to implement 22:54 no it does not. not in general 22:55 looking at 3.7 oname(do_name.c) i see one "break illiterate" thing and it's for artinaming 22:55 *does not break illiterate 22:55 that and if you subscribe to "naming an object writes on it" then it wouldn't make SENSE to suddenly forget that name 22:55 it's Right There 22:56 -!- oh6 has joined #tnnt 22:56 token names aren't "knowledge" in the same sense that "yellow potions make me float" 22:56 are 22:56 *is 22:56 ais 22:56 :D 22:56 -!- desertgreg has joined #tnnt 22:57 you could read artinaming as breaking illiterate as being sort of a pun because you are "literate" for knowing the Tolkein reference 22:57 pfff 22:57 qt: that makes too much sense 22:57 ^ 22:57 qt, that sounds so good I must be true 22:57 but it's fucking funny 22:57 *It 23:00 ais523: have you and bhaak gone on strike yet for a contract that guarantees you hardware store shopkeepers? 23:00 [US] bleeko (Mon Hum Mal Neu) destroyed ellone's ghost, the former Novice, on T:1536 23:01 qt: no, I was just busy playing the tournament 23:03 oh yeah I wasn't saying that asking you why you aren't committing more 23:03 I feel like you've been committing more than usual during the tournament actually (maybe noticing more things by actually playing? I felt that way at least) 23:04 I was just encouraging you and bhaak to organize and demand what's yours (and Bart House too, I guess -- I think he's the third recent addition without a toolshk) 23:04 qt: I was using the tournament for playtesting, although it's a 3.6 tournament not a 3.7 tournament so the information wasn't ideal 23:05 I can't remember whether Bart House is an all-platforms toolshk or specifically on Windows 23:05 (should be, rather than is) 23:05 there are rules to these things, but it's not my job to track them 23:05 qt, BtW: that naming a corpse makes it fail to stack makes sense when you consider that when you *revive* a named corpse, the monster acquires that name 23:05 Guidebook says he joined the main devteam "after decades as a porting team participant" 23:06 Though I haven't noticed any non-Windows commits from him that I can remember 23:07 it is definitely helpful having someone on the devteam who knows how to build for Windows 23:08 yeah, I bet 23:08 it's too major a platform to ignore, and yet it's pretty different toolchainwise from what most of us are used to 23:08 though the Windows port has sort of languished recently hasn't it? 23:08 I haven't really been following it 23:09 but it's possible that Microsoft stopped changing their rules as often, meaning less reaction to the changes was needed 23:09 I actually gave up on the OSX version for NH4, Apple changed their rules so often I eventually decided there was no point in trying to keep up 23:09 iirc there are some issues with the win32 tiles port that have been uncorrected for a long time, like since gold started using the '$' invlet (it's impossible to select gold with a count on nethackw because the windowport assumes '$' is only a group accelerator so doesn't accept a count) 23:10 I'd guess there haven't been any commits to nethackw (or tested commits at least, Pat may have done one or two blind changes without testing) for at least a couple years 23:11 -!- oh6 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11 NH4 has almost no platform-specific code, it makes things much easier 23:11 -!- oh6 has joined #tnnt 23:11 which is a shame, that's how I was first introduced to nethack, in the windows computer lab at school 23:11 the only stuff that varies by platform is the linker magic that lets libuncursed conditionally load a GUI 23:11 it's a pretty good/user-friendly windowport I think 23:12 and that's about 5 lines of defines to choose the appropriate spelling of the linker magic for the platform (the magic itself is basically the same in each case) 23:12 ais523: NH4 doesn't have a GUI/tiles windowport right? Or does it and you have some way to make it work even so? 23:13 qt: it does 23:13 although it's the same executable, it dynamically links itself to SDL2 at runtime if you start it in tiles mode 23:13 (so you can run it in tty mode even if you don't have a GUI installed) 23:14 wow, that's neat 23:14 also the tiles mode is basically a terminal emulator I wrote that can replace characters with tiles in a rectangular subset, so basically all the code is common between tty and tiles 23:15 (to the extent that you can select a tileset in the tty port, but it doesn't know how to draw it and thus the map ends up full of red question marks) 23:15 oh, so is it basically like playing with a vt_tiledata-aware client? It's not a separate UI like the vanilla GUI windowports? 23:16 yes, it's very like vt_tiledata, the only difference is that the size of the tile doesn't have to match the size of a character 23:16 that sounds neat 23:16 a tile can span multiple characters? is that used in-game? 23:16 qt: no, a tile spans a single character but can be a different physical size from the characters 23:17 meaning that the tiles port has to basically "zoom in" on the map in order to fit it into the allotted space (this is the same as what NH3 tiles ports do) 23:17 oh 23:18 I get what you mean I think 23:18 -!- a1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:18 not that a single square would be a different size from the surrounding squares but that the entire map can be zoomed in and out without affecting the inventory, etc? 23:18 right 23:18 that sounds really cool 23:19 although the logic for scrolling it isn't ideal atm, it works most of the time but can be problematic when the cursor is near the map edges 23:19 I was originally planning to port NH4 as a windowport for NH3, but took a wihle to get around to it, and then NH3 curses got improved by other people to be very close to NH4 anyway, so I had less motivation 23:20 it might still be worth doing it for the tiles view 23:23 NH4 still crashes my terminal emulator for whatever reason :( 23:23 well, last I checked anyway 23:25 i should buy a real VT100 to avoid this problem 23:25 I bet NH4 would work great on that 23:26 qt: it might not, old-fashioned terminals need timing pauses and adding those is one of the main things that curses does 23:26 but, most modern terminals don't need them so I didn't implement them in NH4 23:26 which terminal emulator do you use? 23:27 yeah I was being more or less sarcastic, because I guessed NH4 doesn't bend over backwards to accomodate really old hardware like vanilla NetHack traditionally has 23:27 kitty on OSX 23:27 I wonder if it's being crashed by a workaround added for some other terminal 23:27 I think we've discussed this situation before (a couple years ago now, probably) 23:28 I think maybe I should just remove the palette-setting code, it is helpful for some players but causes problems for others, and some terminals don't like it much 23:28 and it feels like making it work for one terminal just breaks another 23:28 it's really weird, it happens like 30% of the time when it's drawing the title screen 23:28 like halfway through drawing it, while it's still being printed, the entire terminal emulator freezes up (not just the one pane it's in) 23:29 and then I found out that resizing the terminal emulator window unfreezes it, but the pane with hardfought/NH4 is still frozen IIRC 23:29 -!- a1 has joined #tnnt 23:31 -!- oh6 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:32 -!- dbanethacker has quit [Quit: Client closed] 23:39 [US] tjw (Arc Hum Mal Neu) had Cleaver bestowed upon him by Camaxtli, on T:22024 23:44 [US] OtsMcGee (Tou Hum Mal Neu) made his first wish - "blessed greased +2 gray dragon scale mail", on T:13052 23:47 bye for now ais523, good talking to you -- I am going to pack up now and head to my parents' place to get dinner with them 23:48 bye 23:55 -!- qt has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:59 -!- Glasshopper has joined #tnnt