00:01 <Loggers_VIII> yeah to steal you have to be opposite sex
00:01 <Loggers_VIII> or to seduce at all, I guess
00:02 <Loggers_VIII> (as foocubus, at least. I think n can steal from any monster regardless of sex (?))
00:04 <Furey> i wonder what stats affect to-hit probability here
00:05 <Furey> maybe stockpile some !oGL and drink them in polyform?
00:06 <Furey> You bite the ogre lord.  You steal:  o - a club.  You hit the ogre lord.  You hit the ogre lord.
00:07 <Furey> When I stole the ogre lord's wand of striking I was polyform incubus. When I stole this club just now, I was polyform succubus.
00:12 <Loggers_VIII> strange, I remember hearing you had to be opposite sex like for the player
00:12 <Loggers_VIII> myth debunked!
00:13 <Furey> also the wiki page for foocubi does not mention polyself at all (the wiki page for nymph does)
00:14 <Furey> i'm trying to steal from the NPC and then levelport out with the loot. i believe that stops the loot from vanishing.
00:19 <Loggers_VIII> are you doing deathmatch?
00:20 <Loggers_VIII> if you can steal the NPC's loot, why not just kill it anyway?
00:21 <Furey> yes, deathmatch.
00:21 <Furey> there's special code so hero can take *one* item from npc's loot.
00:21 <Furey> i'm guessing that the code path for stealing is different. (or maybe npc is just unstealable, as leprechauns appear to be)
00:22 <Loggers_VIII> does the game print a message if you fail to steal something from a monster because they're marked as being immune?
00:22 <Loggers_VIII> I know it does in some variants, but not sure about vanilla
00:23 <Furey> this is my first game ever trying stealing
00:23 <Furey> i didn't get any special messages about stealing from leprechaun, just ordinary attack messages
00:24 <Loggers_VIII> hmm
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00:24 <crunchbubba> leprechaun may not have had anything to steal
00:25 <Loggers_VIII> let me wizmode real quick
00:25 <crunchbubba> he dropped only money
00:25 <Furey> crunchbubba: true, i need more experience with these polyforms
00:26 <Loggers_VIII> I just tested, you can steal things from leprechauns
00:26 <Furey> i attacked the NPC 50 times and got only misses, so if it's a "natural 20 always hits" mechanic, then the NPC is theft immune
00:27 <Loggers_VIII> furey: foocubi have claw attacks too, did you hit with any of those?
00:28 <Furey> loggers_viii: nope. 50 consecutive "you miss" multiple tmes.
00:28 <Loggers_VIII> then that's just the player monster's AC at work
00:28 <Furey> yeah, this NPC has AC -35
00:28 <Furey> but i thought a natural 20 would beat any AC
00:29 <Loggers_VIII> if that's true, you just got unlucky
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00:31 <Furey> there's trophies for not killing quest nemesis, not killing vlad, not killing rodney, not killing high priest
00:32 <Loggers_VIII> I can't find anything about rolling a 20 beating any AC on the wiki, but it's a large article and I was just skimming
00:32 <Loggers_VIII> I wonder if having high barehand/martial arts skill impacts your TH for an unarmed polyform?
00:32 <crunchbubba> so your thought it to steal from them and not kill them?
00:33 <crunchbubba> :s to
00:33 <crunchbubba> is to
00:33 <Furey> also if monster AC works like hero AC (it doesn't have to), then AC -35 functions like AC rnd(-350 and i should beat that sometime
00:34 <Loggers_VIII> an easier way would be to eat a lot of rings of increase accuracy, but that strategy requires a bit of RNG and you basically have to play tou
00:34 <Furey> argh, ... like AC rnd(-35)
00:35 <Furey> i'm going to make a note to explore this for tnnt 2024
00:35 <crunchbubba> $time
00:35 <Croesus> crunchbubba: 2023-10-15 00:35:33 UTC. 2023 Tournament begins in 16d 23:24:26
00:39 <Umbire> Zapping a wand of make invisible doesn't work on monsters wearing mummy wrappings, right?
00:40 <Loggers_VIII> idk, let me see
00:41 <Umbire> Asking for latest stable (3.6.7)
00:42 <Loggers_VIII> yeah
00:42 <Loggers_VIII> ugh it's hard to get monsters to put on mummy wrappings
00:42 <Umbire> wizgen a kobold mummy or something
00:43 <Umbire> or gen up a mummy wrapping and leave it by a hostile monster
00:44 <Loggers_VIII> ok yes, zapping make invis doesn't work if monster has mummy wrapping on
00:44 <Loggers_VIII> I got my pet mind flayer to put one on by making it +99 :P
00:45 <Umbire> Bet
00:45 <Furey> hmmm. back in natural elf form. xp 19, attacking ac -35 NPC with +0 magicbane, dagger skill at expert. 4/10 attacks hit.
00:46 <Loggers_VIII> sounds normal
00:47 <Furey> so attacking with as foocubus, hd 6, attaching ac -35 NPC with bare hands, unarmed combat at unskilled, 0/50 attacks hit.
00:47 <Loggers_VIII> I was fighting a -23 AC player monster in evilhack just now, expert quarterstaff skill with +6 staff of aesculapius, still only around 40% attacks hit
00:47 <Loggers_VIII> *60%
00:48 <Loggers_VIII> again, that sounds normal
00:49 <Furey> i can increase unarmed combat skill by training and role selection, by rings of increase accuracy (worn or eating), by wearing gauntlets of power or dexterity, and maybe by quaffing a lot of potions of gain level while in polyform
00:50 <Furey> i can also drain the monster and then make it peaceful a lot with charm monster, although that does not work on a lot of target monsters
00:51 <Furey> (peaceful means it isn't killing my ass while i'm regrouping)
00:51 <Loggers_VIII> in vanilla, does cancelling a monster cancel its inventory?
00:52 <Furey> no, cancelled nymphs drop ordinary !oOD, for example
00:53 <Loggers_VIII> unfortunate
00:53 <Furey> also i cancelled this NPC about 6 times recently, and stethoscope still says AC -35, and cancelled
00:53 <Furey> Status of Furey the Mage (neutral):  Level 1  HP 122(372)  AC -35, cancelled, fast.
00:53 <Furey> (NPC is also named Furey because very few people are playing TNNT Beta).
00:54 <Furey> I want this NPC's lovely +4/+5/+7 armor, not +0 armor!
00:54 <Loggers_VIII> heh fair enough
00:55 <Furey> The NPC threw a cockatrice egg and 4 blessed +7 daggers at me and I managed to save those -- picked them up and levelported out of arena.
00:56 <Loggers_VIII> can you stone the npc, pick up its statue and levelport out
00:56 <Furey> Worth a try.
01:01 <Furey> Attacking with cockatrice egg. 0/20 attacks hit. AC -35.
01:02 <Loggers_VIII> throwing items has a higher chance
01:03 <Loggers_VIII> or is that just for potions?
01:04 <Loggers_VIII> nope, same chance for potions; dex-1/25
01:04 <Furey> if i throw the egg i get 1 attack and then the egg is gone.
01:04 <Furey> I did another 30 attacks wielding it and got 0/30 hits.
01:04 <Loggers_VIII> you will never hit with melee, so
01:04 <Loggers_VIII> could you poly into a cockatrice and lay eggs
01:06 <Furey> i could, but i'm reaching m explore limit
01:06 <Loggers_VIII> what is explore limit?
01:07 <Furey> amount of time that I (as a player) can play with this new thing at this time (october 2023).
01:08 <Loggers_VIII> ahhh I thought you meant in game :)
01:08 <Furey> nah the hero is pretty good, the goal this game was "receive the quest foodless" and the hero is way past that
01:09 <Furey> are you going to be in tnnt?
01:09 <Loggers_VIII> probably
01:10 <Furey> if i might ask, what name do you play under?
01:10 <Loggers_VIII> nothing else to do, since everyone else will be playing it. I meant to plan ahead to try and figure out a strategy for some of the more difficult achievements, but never got around to it
01:10 <Loggers_VIII> I play under Loggers
01:11 <Furey> gotcha, i see your page.
01:12 <Furey> 2022 was my first tournament (of any kind) and after it was over I planned the living daylights for 2023.
01:13 <Loggers_VIII> tournaments are fun! nice to see everyone get together and play
01:15 <Furey> I like the beta test period too, it's open season to mess with corner cases.
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01:58 <Umbire> https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/blob/NetHack-3.6.7_Released/src/zap.c#L2393 Can someone clarify this line for me?
02:14 <Furey> this is function "zapyourself" with boolean parameter "ordinary". Whatever "ordinary" means, "ordinary" zaps of yourself always set perma invis, and non-ordinary zaps have a 10% chance of setting perma invis.
02:20 <Furey> I'm going to guess that "ordinary" means "zap" command, and "!ordinary" comes from an "apply" command.
02:20 <ais523> it is common for zap code to run for things other than wands
02:21 <ais523> I don't know whether that's the case for zapyourself specifically
02:21 <ais523> but in general you have to watch out for really weird sources of zaps when trying to read NetHack's code
02:24 <Furey> yeah, using camera on self calls zapyourself (with ordinary=true)
02:25 <Furey> applying (breaking) a wand calls zapyourself (with ordinary=false)
02:27 <Furey> so my reading is that if hero zaps themselves with a wand of make invisible, and is not wearing a mummy wrapping, then 100% chance they become perma invisible. if hero applies a wand of make invisible, and is not wearing a mummy wrapping, then 10% chance they become perma invisible, and 90% chance they get 250 turns of temporary invisible.
02:28 <Furey> but I could be wrong, i'm not an experienced nethack dev!!
03:05 <Umbire> That seems right
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06:57 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> @Loggers_VIII join our clan
06:57 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> i want a loggers on my side
06:57 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> ok
06:58 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> what clan
06:58 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> yay that was easy
06:58 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> i don’t know yet i am in the dark on everything
06:58 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> merely a pawn
06:58 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> it’s 2 am I am not hard to convince of things :p
06:58 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> hah felt
06:58 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> ok tell me when you know so I can join
06:59 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> I do not feel like doing a one person clan this time
06:59 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> i think we haven’t yet decided on a name
06:59 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> so open to suggestions afaik
07:00 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> just do order of the cockatrice but it’s order of the cock (laugh track)
07:00 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> lol
07:01 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> that’s my former clan i don’t condone such disrespect
07:01 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> Condone funny disrespect
07:02 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> my evilhack game crashed and k2 isn’t back yet so I might as well play some tnnt beta
07:02 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> get in ye olde practice
07:03 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> curious to see how fast you can win
07:03 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> let’s see it
07:03 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> idk I haven’t played any variation of vanilla in over a year
07:03 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> except for like a couple hours of nao last month
07:04 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> maybe I suck
07:04 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> monk is easy, I’ll do that
07:05 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> you played too many variants
07:05 <rld> <Shadow_Rider [@shadow_rider]> monk is not easy
07:05 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> oh fuck I accidentally started a new evilhack game, hope that doesn’t fuck with my crashed one
07:06 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> fine I’ll play ball
07:06 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> *valk
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07:10 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> Ew this version doesn’t have peaceful displace
07:18 <Loggers_VIII> meh, swap chest doesn't have anything good
07:18 <Loggers_VIII> to be expected, but still
07:19 <Loggers_VIII> just gonna bank that I got the luckstone instead of flint and go price id
07:20 <Loggers_VIII> yay, poison res. no instadeath for me
07:21 <Loggers_VIII> oops, there's the death. drank a potion of poly
07:25 <Loggers_VIII> *paralysis
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12:56 <Furey> Practicing muh Leeroy ... 11 turns.
12:56 <Furey> I like this achievement because it doesn't require hours of farming.
12:59 <Furey> (27 turns from staircase to sitting on the throne)
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22:33 <crunchbubba> RNG taunting me  There's some graffiti on the floor here.  You read: "D?g fo? Vic?ory herc
22:34 <rld> <Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]> $time
22:34 <Croesus> Loggers_VIII [@Loggers_VIII]: 2023-10-15 22:34:28 UTC. 2023 Tournament begins in 16d 01:25:31
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23:35 <crunchbubba> ... I am in the robot finds kitten branch (I think), I see the entire level, (I think), but /O says "No objects are currently shown on the map."
23:36 <crunchbubba> ah, perhaps that's the point. very mysterious
23:36 <crunchbubba> I will quit spoilering
23:37 <Noisytoot> Those objects are weird. I'm not sure they're real objects. You can't pick them up or even step on their square.
23:38 <crunchbubba> I got a "way to go" but #achievements says nothing happened. no clue what's going on here
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23:39 <crunchbubba> OK, I got an achievement. still no clue
23:39 <Noisytoot> Walk into them until you find the kitten.
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23:40 <crunchbubba> did that