00:05 -!- fakepass has joined #tnnt 00:36 $time 00:36 Tangles: 2021-10-06 00:36:43 EDT. 2021 Tournament begins in 25d 23:23:17 00:37 K2: You need to pull the latest bot code to make it report UTC again. That broke at somepoint (maybe when we moved to python3) 01:43 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 01:45 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:55 -!- spicyCebolla has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:43 -!- cathartes has quit [Quit: fly away] 02:58 python3: The worst langauge transition, ever. :( 03:17 <@Joanna> YUP 03:19 -!- arahael has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1] 03:47 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 03:51 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:09 <@ichbinmiah> Thanks for this additional discussion and transparency, especially the part about the backend change away from Perl to Python partially driving the decision on scoring formats. Best of luck with that transition and I hope you all build something you can love and support. As someone who has volunteered to run several tournaments and leagues before, including devising never-quite-perfect scoring systems, I know how thankless the task can sometimes feel, 04:09 so let me also share my sincere thanks to the organizers of TNNT for their work. Watching as your volunteer efforts get pincushioned by outside peanut gallerying can feel really irritating at times. And so at the risk of being that irritating peanut gallery, with my own experiences in mind, I might politely offer an additional thought: If you are going to ask your community for feedback (e.g. a post-tournament survey or similar), respondents are naturally going to 04:09 presume that you, the organizers, care about what the rest of us, the players, have to say. In the future, it might be helpful to lead with that information up front to help drive/explain your decision making, or at least give your respondents the fig-leaf courtesy of pretending you are, rather than retroactively checking what the survey says days into a back-and-forth to see if the data happens to mesh with what you plan to do. Otherwise it could be more honest to 04:09 just do what you want without prompting 73 people to take the time to share their thoughts. It's the dev's tournament, after all, you can do whatever you like with it. I would look forward to TNNT either way. 05:16 -!- arahael has joined #tnnt 05:42 <@ichbinmiah> In rereading my words, I should not have typed the words "more honest" as it implies that I think there is dishonesty. That is not at all the case and I apologize if it came across that way. Management regrets the error, the offending editor has been sacked, and I am taking applications to fill the position. 05:45 <@Joanna> Lmao 05:45 <@Joanna> Handy when you have a scapegoat like that to give the boot 🙃 05:53 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 05:55 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:30 -!- spicyCebolla has joined #tnnt 06:38 <@ichbinmiah> What's the phrase? Something like "if you're not able to locate the idiot at the work table, everyone else already knows who it is?" 😂 07:06 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:08 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 07:20 @ichbinmiah Note that we did NOT ask players "how would you improve the scoring system". Any and all scoring system suggestions were answers to the "anything else you want to share?" open ended question. Whereas we did ask explicitly about people's thoughts on moving away from a total-score system. 07:21 I think there's this perception that we implied the scoring system was here permanently and wanted to know how to improve it, which was... not the case. 07:22 Maybe just the inertia of assuming next year's TNNT will be mostly the same as last year's, combined with not much work/discussion happening on it mid-year? 07:58 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 08:01 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:04 -!- mode/#tnnt [+o Croesus] by ChanServ 12:04 $time 12:04 K2: 2021-10-06 12:04:43 UTC. 2021 Tournament begins in 25d 11:55:17 12:04 wee 12:09 <@ichbinmiah> In the same survey at the close of 2020's TNNT, you also asked explicitly: "How would you rate the scoring for the tournament this year?" 53.4% responded "Liked it - was balanced and fair, could maybe use some small adjustments." A further 11% responded "Loved it - spot on, don't change a thing." Only 5.48% of respondents replied either "Disliked it, system could use some work" or "Hated it - scrap it, needs a total revamp." So, after asking the 12:09 question, and receiving feedback that 64.4% of your respondents enjoyed last year's system, you are going in the opposite direction and wholesale revamping it. And this is your prerogative! We are just your consumers along for a fun ride. What I am trying to convey is - in my experience - I have found it better to just not ask the question if I don't really care what the answer is. 12:11 say we kept the scoreboard exactly as is with some more unbalanceable tweaks based on both tnnt devteam ideas and outside suggestions. would the people who agreed with the plan to move to no-points leaderboards then feel like they expressed their feedback and got ignored? sounds like the case. 12:11 cannot. please. everyone. 12:12 hey you know what you can do -- you love the 2020 scoreboard so much, go set up a server and run it. the software is public. 12:18 a few of the tnnt team have wanted to revamp the scoring system for awhile now. we can give it a shot and see how it pans out. if it turns out to be something that isnt as fun, we can always go back to traditional scoring 12:19 i dont think there's any harm in trying out a new method. who knows, it may work out great. we wont know until we try it 12:20 @ichbinmiah I appreciate the feedback, it's good to get a point of view from others who have had same experiences 12:22 <@ichbinmiah> Of course. I look forward to 2021's TNNT in whatever form it takes. You all are doing Marduk's good work in bringing it to us. 12:26 I'm not involved with the scoring or the surveys, but I'll add this: When I've done surveys, I've often found that after getting the results, I found that I should've asked better questions. 12:26 You don't neccessarily want the survey results to dictate the work that should be done. 12:26 They're just a means of insight, nothign more, really. 14:02 -!- joes has joined #tnnt 14:04 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 14:06 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:36 -!- mode/#tnnt [+o Croesus] by ChanServ 14:37 $$who 14:37 oops 14:37 $who 14:37 K2: [US] k2 14:38 $whereis k2 14:38 K2: [US] k2 : (Cav Hum Fem Neu) T:6 The Dungeons of Doom level: 1 14:38 * K2 pets Croesus 14:38 good boy 14:40 <@Shadow_Rider> D: k2 racking up achievements before the tournament has started 14:40 hah 14:48 -!- K2 changed the topic on #tnnt to: Welcome to 'The November NetHack Tournament' :: TNNT 2021 kicks off soon! :: open beta begins Oct 15th 15:12 -!- jonbaneof has joined #tnnt 15:20 $who 15:20 K2: [US] No current players | [EU] No current players | [AU] No current players 15:23 -!- K2 changed the topic on #tnnt to: Welcome to 'The November NetHack Tournament' :: https://www.hardfought.org/tnnt :: TNNT 2021 kicks off soon! :: open beta begins Oct 15th 15:46 -!- joes has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54 -!- jonbaneof has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55 -!- rld has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56 -!- rld has joined #tnnt 15:56 -!- mode/#tnnt [+v rld] by ChanServ 15:57 -!- jonbaneof has joined #tnnt 16:09 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 16:12 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:33 -!- spicyCebolla has quit [Quit: spicyCebolla] 17:43 -!- spicyCebolla has joined #tnnt 18:00 Current Day as of 2021-10-06 18:00 UTC: Games: 4, Asc: 0, Scum: 0. 1120 turns, 332 points. 0d 00:13 gametime. (50%Sam), (75%Hum), (75%Law), (75%Mal), 25d 05:59 to go! 18:09 hah 18:10 -!- silver.libera.chat changed the topic on #tnnt to: Welcome to 'The November NetHack Tournament' :: https://www.hardfought.org/tnnt :: TNNT 2021 kicks off soon! :: open beta begins Oct 15th 18:10 -!- mode/#tnnt [+o Croesus] by ChanServ 18:11 $time 18:11 K2: 2021-10-06 18:11:02 UTC. 2021 Tournament begins in 25d 05:48:58 18:11 $whodat 18:11 awww 18:11 $who 18:11 K2: [US] No current players | [EU] No current players | [AU] No current players 18:13 -!- Umbire is now known as Guest6747 18:13 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 18:15 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 18:16 -!- Guest6747 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:17 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:18 -!- fakepass has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:20 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 20:23 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:26 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 22:28 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:36 -!- jonbaneof has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:29 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]