00:20 -!- spicyCebolla has joined #tnnt 00:39 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 00:41 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:16 -!- Umbire has quit [Quit: Umbire zaps a wand of digging!] 02:43 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 02:46 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12 -!- Demo has quit [*.net *.split] 04:12 -!- Not-a08 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:12 -!- VaderFLAG has quit [*.net *.split] 04:12 -!- K2 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:12 -!- hothraxxa has quit [*.net *.split] 04:12 -!- nicole has quit [*.net *.split] 04:24 -!- Not-a08 has joined #tnnt 04:24 -!- VaderFLAG has joined #tnnt 04:24 -!- Demo has joined #tnnt 04:24 -!- K2 has joined #tnnt 04:24 -!- hothraxxa has joined #tnnt 04:24 -!- nicole has joined #tnnt 04:24 -!- mode/#tnnt [+oo K2 hothraxxa] by sodium.libera.chat 04:35 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 04:49 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 04:51 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:11 <@ichbinmiah> I am very sad to hear that last year's scoring system is apparently being turfed. I am by no means a good player, but I enjoyed contributing to my clan's total in my own small way. Since I am not a big multi-conduct ascender or a fast realtime ascender or a low turncount ascender or a low score ascender or a high score ascender or someone who particularly wants to explode their ratio in search of achievements... I'm not sure how I meaningfully 05:11 contribute to my clan on "leaderboards". I will of course wait to see the finished announcement, but from what I'm reading, it's sounding like this year's TNNT is only for the elite that can rack up swag ascensions on the advanced margins of play and not for the rest of us. 05:43 -!- Umbire is now known as Guest2882 05:43 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 05:47 -!- Guest2882 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:32 <@Joanna> you can stilll contribute to clan things tho 06:33 <@Joanna> like most ascs, most unique deaths, great $combi 06:34 <@Joanna> also we may reintroduce scoring for 2022 if feedback afterwards calls largely for having it back 06:34 <@Joanna> Consider it an experiment 06:34 <@Joanna> For this year 06:36 <@Joanna> It's partly for dev reasons bc we're migrating to python and partly because point-scoring is incredibly arbitrary and very difficult to balance (reiterating what aosdict said mainly, but I do agree with him on this and supported the idea back in Dec 2020) 06:54 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 06:58 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:21 Every way you could contribute to your clan, without being "elite", is still there. You can still coordinate on who ascends what for Great/Lesser Foo, All Roles, etc. You can still work to get achievements no one else in your clan has. Can still focus on doing tricky conduct combos. 07:24 "TNNT is only for the elite" is most definitely not what we're going for, but there is definitely a skew in that direction; however, the skew has always been there. Clans not composed of elite players have always been non-competitive in TNNT. 07:25 yeah, it's true 07:25 like you said, it's kind of a structural problem 07:26 NetHack as a game places heavy emphasis on the ascension 07:26 and it's a hard game to ascend 07:27 would be weird if not the best players/clans would win too tbh 07:27 one other thing @ichbinmiah that i would like to point iout (and to others) 07:27 is that nothing is really set in stone 07:27 if we cannot get a python tourney backend ready in time, we'll have to roll out the old perl thing pretty much as it was last year 07:27 again for Nov 2021 07:27 as a player without a chance to be in the top of anything there is always achievements and trophies to aim for (that is what I am gonna do) 07:28 which would have scoring still with little or no changes 07:28 but that is only my view on it :) 07:28 cbus: fair 07:28 i mean thats kinda one of the reasons we introduced all those achievements iirc 07:29 yeah if we hadn't dreamt up achievements there would be precious little in the game for newer players to do 07:30 are the achievements new? 07:30 no they weren't dreamt up to replace points 07:30 I know that the DCSS tournament had stuff like that (but I haven't played nethack in many years) 07:30 altho some achievements will be new this year 07:30 also... it's probably not that difficult to take the leaderboard based system and slap a scoring system on top of it, since the leaderboard is raw data 07:30 they seem awesome 07:31 aosdict: true, but there may not be enough time for that 07:31 except then it will get even MORE complicated as players will demand points for #2 and #3 ranks on the leaderboard :-) 07:31 aoei: yes definitely out of scope 07:31 hahaha true 07:32 aosdict: by an amusing coincidence of fate, I have also an MVP at my job due by Nov 1st :^) 07:32 and we are also throwing out various things there as out of scope 08:06 -!- Umbire has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 09:00 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 09:02 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:31 <@Shadow_Rider> How wrong of me would it be to secretly hope that the Python dev has unexpected issues :P 10:59 well for leaderboards i wouldn't do points. i'd just sum up your position on each board. and you're angling for lowest sum, golf style 11:02 dcss does it *sorta* like that, except it does some super fancy math. they call it like, harmonic mean or something? so that getting very-well-ranked in any category has a big impact on your overall ranking, and being (tied for) dead last in several other categories isn't a big deal as long as you're doing well in at least one 11:03 it's very, very spooky math 11:04 i guess if you simply sum up your position on all leaderboards, then doing "ok at everything" might wind up being better than fighting for top spot on a board. so maybe that's what harmonic mean was introduced to combat 11:05 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 11:08 <@Tone> Devnull had a simple scoring system based on leaderboard placement iirc 11:08 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:21 if there ends up being that huge of a stink over having no unified score, I can see subsequent tournaments adopting some kind of leaderboard based scoring 11:22 but the main impetus now is 1) rewrite the scoreboard in something we can actually maintain rather than poking at perl none of us wrote and 2) have leaderboards rather than winner-take-all for everything 11:23 <@Shadow_Rider> Just throwing this out there as a possible idea for the future, when I run cross country we tabulate score by adding up the placements of the top 5 (out of 7) runners and rank teams by lowest score, similar approach might be implemented here 11:25 <@Shadow_Rider> Wait aosdict just to clarify does that mean there won’t be an overall clan leaderboard at all, or there will be both overall and separate category leaderboards? 11:26 not trying to shoot down ideas, but a leaderboard-leaders based scoring seems like it would run afoul of either "tnnt shouldn't cater to just the elites" or "tnnt shouldn't allow a weaker clan member to bring down the clan" 11:26 aosdict: i think the reason this is confusing people is because many people are only finding out now that the scoreboard is getting scrapped - at a time during which people were getting ready for tnnt-as-they-knew-it 11:27 I mean. there isn't much tnnt discussion outside of oct-nov-dec 11:27 and last those folks heard, y'all took in a bunch of post-tourney feedback, which is getting thrown out along with the scoreboard 11:28 so it probly feels like a bit of a bait and switch 11:29 @shadow_rider clans would be treated the same as players in the current plan. individual player can get one-offs like all roles, clans in aggregate can get all roles. there's an individual leaderboard for fastest realtime, most ascs etc, there will be clan leaderboards for the same things. 11:29 <@Shadow_Rider> Gotcha thanks 11:30 what there would not be is a single overall clan leaderboard that mashes together different types of data. 11:35 spicyCebolla: every suggestion has an equal and opposite suggestion. no matter how you slice it, some suggestions don't get implemented 11:37 <@IceBox> i think the call out was that no suggestions felt implemented, haha 11:42 <@Tone> Was there a tournament announcement already? 11:43 well yes, when most of the changes are "here's how I would tweak the scoring system" and you are planning on rewriting the scoreboard, possibly to not have a scoring system, what are you gonna do? 11:44 I'm kind of getting a sense of "feedback deserves to be implemented" whereas from the dev perspective it's "feedback deserves consideration"? 11:53 <@IceBox> yeah i dunno, it's a tricky one that only the event-runners can really answer but i just wouldn't even ask for feedback if most of the decision-making is largely independent regardless of feedback 11:53 <@IceBox> which is typically the impression given if/when community input appears to be dropped, ignored, whatever verb you choose 11:54 <@IceBox> i think running an event is an enormous effort and i appreciate and applaud all the work that goes into it, so i'll drop that piece and say thanks for all the stuff everyone's doing to put it on again 🙂 11:55 <@IceBox> the other side of the coin is that it's pretty easy to say how things can be better while sitting in the audience 11:59 so I went back and checked, we explicitly asked about replacing scoring with leaderboards as a survey question 11:59 "We plan to add leaderboards for most of the trophies in 2021, and are considering removing the points system entirely in favor of leaderboards only. This would create a tournament where players and clans can win in multiple categories, but there would be no overall winner (and no issues with the scoring favoring certain play styles). What do you think of this idea?" 11:59 strongly agree: 13.7% agree: 28.8% neutral: 32.9% disagree: 23.3% strongly disagree: 1.37% 12:01 I mean, when you have a 42/24 split... 12:01 and these results aren't secret, I went back and found them in the december reddit post 12:07 so in a very real sense, aosdict IS implementing feedback based on feedback from majority 12:08 add chocolate fondue fountains that replace 1/5 of magic fountains 12:08 brilliant 12:15 i kinda dig the golf idea 13:11 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 13:13 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:03 -!- fakepass has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:10 -!- jonbaneof has joined #tnnt 15:16 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 15:19 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:00 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:21 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 17:24 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:26 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 19:29 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:30 -!- jonbaneof has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:32 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #tnnt 21:34 -!- jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:54 That backscroll was kind of hard to read, but is a good summary of the challenges of building something like this and trying to please everyone. The problem with a scoring system is that nobody is ever going to agree on how various accomplishments stack up against each other. Eg: is a single 10-conduct run harder to pull off than a 5-streak incorporating all races? Everyone has an opinion which is biased 21:54 towards their own play-style and it can be hard to gather reliable, empirical data on this. 21:56 fine, cheese fondue then 21:57 The leaderboard idea mitigates this because in each category everyone is competing on a level playing field for the same #1 position. The difficulty of each category may vary, but within each category, everyone is competing for the same thing. 21:59 The other issue we keep coming up against is accessibility for more novice players. It's tricky to balance finding a way they can make a meaningful contribution, with the basic premise that this is a competition of sorts, and the best players should be the winners. 22:00 I don't really have answers here, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out. 22:01 The other thing worth noting is that all of the raw game data (xlogfiles) will be publicly available in near realtime, and anyone/everyone is free to build and publish their own "alternative" scoreboard, as clan EIT used to do in the /dev/null days. 22:11 <@Tone> The achievements are a nice pathway for novice players to contribute 22:11 <@Tone> And I think the lesser role/race trophies to an extent 22:13 <@Tone> even the RRA combo leaderboards for players who might ascend once or twice over the course of the month 22:16 <@Tone> One novice player may not do much alone but a coordinated group could place on clan leaderboards for them and have a good time doing it 22:19 <@Tone> but in general yeah it's pretty tricky to design a leaderboard where novice players can be competitive and not have it be dominated by experienced players 22:23 we'll give the no-points leaderboard method a serious go, see how it does 22:24 and that's assuming the new site will be ready in time. there's a possibility we'll need to use the old scoreboard that was used last year 22:29 -!- cathartes has joined #tnnt 22:42 -!- mode/#tnnt [+o Croesus] by ChanServ 22:42 unit327[m] - https://github.com/tnnt-devteam?type=source 22:43 direct any website queries to either aoei or aosdict 22:43 $ping 22:43 K2: Pong! 22:43 $who 22:45 $who 22:48 -!- mode/#tnnt [+o Croesus] by ChanServ 22:48 $who 22:49 $commands 22:49 K2: available commands are help ping time tell source lastgame lastasc asc streak rcedit scores sb score clanscore clantag whereis players who commands 22:49 $time 22:49 K2: 2021-10-05 22:49:34 EDT. 2021 Tournament begins in 26d 01:10:25 23:00 [US] [D]: cathartes (Cav Hum Mal Law), 314 points, 862 turns, killed by a potion of acid 23:05 $who 23:05 $whereis imghax 23:05 $whereis omghax 23:07 [US] [D]: omghax (Ran Orc Mal Cha), 18 points, 231 turns, killed by a jackal (and 2 other games not reported) 23:08 alrighty 23:08 $setmintc omghax 23:08 ah right thats not a thing with croesus bot 23:21 -!- Umbire has joined #tnnt 23:37 -!- jonathanhanes_ has joined #tnnt 23:40 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]