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11:12 <Not-a08> [tnnt] copperwater pushed 3 commits to master [+0/-1/±29] https://git.io/Ja1nu
11:12 <Not-a08> [tnnt] RojjaCebolla 50dc502 - bugfix: one more curly brace for 831f4bc91
11:12 <Not-a08> [tnnt] RojjaCebolla 2289066 - bugfix: tnnt achievement for chaotic sacrifice
11:12 <Not-a08> [tnnt] copperwater 0abded9 - Merge branch 'master' of github.com:tnnt-devteam/tnnt
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12:39 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> do we know at this time, whether points and clans are going to be part of the tourney?
12:40 <aosdict> clans definitely, points questionable
12:55 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> cool. i been trying to imagine getting motivated without having a clan to contribute to
12:56 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> so, on the pointsless leaderboards, is your overall score how high-ranked you are on all leaderboards?
12:56 <aosdict> if there are pointsless leaderboards there is no overall score
12:56 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> and do clans take like, their best player in each category, or an overall sum of the clan?
12:57 <aosdict> tournament results are just how high you and/or your clan ranks on various leaderboards
12:57 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> ah, i see
12:58 <aosdict> because trying to say "clan TNNT got #1 in unique deaths but #30 in overall number of ascensions, how do we compare it directly to ootc" is rather a fool's errand
12:58 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> so a clan could, for instance, focus on being the best at turncount and not have to worry or feel bad about not doing well at realtime, or unique deaths
12:59 <aosdict> they could, yes. I would expect ootc and other competitive clans to try to take the title on as many leaderboards as they can get
13:01 <K2> there's hidden code to prevent luxidream from creating/joining any clan
13:01 <K2> ... oops. did I type that out loud?
13:01 <K2> :P
13:02 <aosdict> with a better db setup it might be easier to do "fantasy TNNT" and build arbitrary clans and see how they do
13:12 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> So it sort of sounds like junethack scoring if I’m interpreting it correctly?
13:13 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> one of the more-fun things was working together to try to ascend all race/role combos
13:14 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> so i'm hopin there can be a leaderboard for number of unique combos ascended!
13:14 <aosdict> indeed, that would still be a thing
13:14 <aosdict> both the variables like "number of unique combos" and the binaries like "all roles"
13:15 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> and those ultra-tiny cheevos that TNNT has, those are great for new players to familiarize themselves with nethack's deep and quirky mechanics
13:15 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> especially people who can't yet ascend, i get the feeling they really enjoy checklisting those things
13:16 <aosdict> added a bunch more achievements yesterday
13:16 <aosdict> not the implementation, just the list at this point
13:16 <cbus> where can I read about the achievements?
13:17 <cbus> looking forward to taking part of the tournament (and especially watching the first ascension races) :)
13:17 <aosdict> meh the first asc race is a given. luxi will win it
13:17 <cbus> only nasty thing is that it is in the middle of the night here
13:17 <aosdict> I want to have an "earliest asc" leaderboard instead of just a "first asc" thing for one person
13:18 <cbus> that sounds even better tbh
13:18 <aosdict> obviously you can't do anything to change your position on it, but still more interesting
13:18 <aosdict> there's a list of achievements on https://hardfought.org/tnnt/rules.html
13:18 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> man, y'all get so defeatist about lux's skill 😛
13:19 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> one can practice
13:19 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> I’m sorta put out that this sounds like junethack for vanilla
13:19 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> shadow, tommo and aoei are getting quite fast
13:19 <aosdict> other rules are subject to change, as well as achievements technically, but I don't expect the achievements that are already there to change much
13:19 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> But I get it
13:19 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> iyarkonen got first asc in 2019
13:19 <aosdict> how is it like junethack for vanilla
13:19 <aosdict> we're not trying to make junethack for vanilla...?
13:20 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> Well the scoring sounds that way to me
13:20 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> Different categories with leaderboards that contribute to clans depending by on ranking
13:21 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> shadow: because it's a leaderboard instead of a % completion / check-off thing?
13:21 <rld> <@SpicyCebolla> shadow: in a way, tnnt has always had leaderboards for a few categories, it's just that you only counted in first place 😉
13:21 <aosdict> junethack doesn't really have categories... it has per-variant stats tracking games/ascs, and then there are a bunch of variant-specific trophies
13:22 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> I suppose so, but to me they are significantly similar if you eliminate variants from the picture
13:22 <aosdict> anyway the main impetus for me personally at least is to get away from a byzantine unbalanceable system of trying to score accomplishments fairly
13:23 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> The variants only seemed to matter for one category at that
13:24 <cbus> the achievements seem like fun
13:24 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> I can support the reasoning behind it, just a little sad that there isn’t some easier solution that allows scoring to be kept :((
13:24 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> Probably just because the scoring fuels my competitiveness, which I should realize is not the whole point
13:25 <aosdict> I mean, you still compete to get as high on as many leaderboards as possible. There just isn't an overall ranking.
13:29 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> How many categories were you guys thinking?
13:29 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> If that’s not protected info
13:32 <rld> <@luxidream> Scoring doesn’t necessarily need to be fair, it just needs to be not exploitable
13:32 <rld> <@luxidream> problems with previous years arose when you could do something silly over and over again for huge points
13:33 <K2> like ascending in 45 min
13:33 <K2> that's so silly, stop it
13:33 <K2> :P
13:34 <K2> hi luxi
13:34 <rld> <@Daniexpert> What's the issue with the system that was in place last year?
13:34 <rld> <@luxidream> Base ascension points already decay very fast
13:35 <rld> <@luxidream> I think last year made some good progress towards making it more fair
13:35 <aosdict> Oh, it's not "the issue". There are so many issues with the system I think it's unsalvageable.
13:35 <K2> @Daniexpert what luxi just said, but there's always been room for improvement
13:35 <K2> aosdict is following his dreams
13:35 <rld> <@Daniexpert> @aosdict for example? Could you list some?
13:36 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> So is it a matter of dev or a matter of a fair system?
13:36 <aosdict> Basically, we got into situations where adjusting points upward for something would unbalance things in one way, and adjusting them downward would unbalance things in another way
13:36 <rld> <@Daniexpert> last year was exploitable?
13:36 <aosdict> conduct multipliers are a big example
13:37 <rld> <@Daniexpert> what if they had a reducing multiplier based on the frequency?
13:37 <aosdict> decrease the multipliers and suddenly no one cares about doing conducts for their point value. increase the multipliers and suddenly it's too easy to farm boatloads of points off easier conducts
13:37 <aosdict> reducing multipliers: discussed, attempted to implement, didn't work
13:38 <rld> <@Daniexpert> each time a player/clan (depends how you want to set it up) achieves a certain conduct or combo of conducts,the next time it's worth less
13:38 <rld> <@Daniexpert> mmh ok
13:38 <aosdict> see the problem here is once I start giving concrete examples of things that went wrong, people are going to bikeshed their own ideas onto it and bloat the problem even more :-)
13:39 <rld> <@Daniexpert> if you want some help you also have to give me the time to understand the system and its flaws
13:39 <aosdict> simpler when we just give raw data as the results and don't try to assign arbitrary scores to it
13:39 <rld> <@Daniexpert> I'm not here to bloat it
13:39 <rld> <@luxidream> because every idea anyone could have is worse than something you’ve already thought of?
13:40 <aosdict> there's also the aspect of "for every suggestion someone has, there is an equal and opposite suggestion"
13:41 <rld> <@Daniexpert> sure, but I bet there is a better one and a worse one, otherwise we couldn't do anything in life because we'd be stuck on deciding
13:41 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> Aosdict genuine question, will there be ways to make it feel like newer players can contribute to their clan? My initial thought is that with points everyone is directly contributing their clans total score. With achievements and conducts/turncount/asc categories, less experienced players obviously won’t be ascending left and right. Even with achievements, it’s as if someone more experienced can easily just pick that one up so it was almost
13:41 <rld> pointless? Hopefully I am making sense
13:42 <aosdict> When you say newer players, do you mean people who really can't ascend yet or people who might get 1 or 2 over the month
13:42 <K2> <@luxidream> because every idea anyone could have is worse than something you’ve already thought of? <--- that's not what aosdict means
13:43 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> Probably moreso people that can’t ascend
13:43 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> They are probably the ones that go after smaller achievements and such
13:43 <K2> at some point you have to stop taking feedback and roll with the plan you have. otherwise nothing gets done, and you get bogged down trying out X number of ideas. we have less than a month to go time
13:44 <rld> <@Daniexpert> If I knew earlier that the current system was "bad", I'd have hopped to help somehow
13:44 <rld> <@Daniexpert> I agree that now it's too late to do that properly
13:44 <K2> feedback and ideas are always welcome of course. just that we're awful close to when we go live
13:45 <aosdict> shadow, I think there's a structural problem here, namely: it's difficult to design ways for non-ascenders to contribute that can't just be easily accomplished by serial ascenders. points based TNNT had this problem, and I don't expect non points based TNNT to avert it either
13:45 <K2> @Daniexpert I wouldnt call last years scoring system bad. Players had fun, and it was an improvement over past years. it's just that it could be better
13:45 <aosdict> in both old and new, the most a non ascender could do was helping with Lesser Foo and unique deaths and achievements. it's about the same picture now.
13:45 <K2> we like 'better'
13:46 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> You don’t think that having points achieved this? Even if someone accumulated a small point total, it still got added to the clan score
13:46 <rld> <@Daniexpert> yeah, that's why I put bad in quotes; I don't really mean that word
13:46 <K2> i gotcha
13:46 <aosdict> No it didn't. Clan score was based on clan metrics, not on the total of its members' scores.
13:46 <rld> <@Daniexpert> for a first timer I liked the previous years system
13:47 <aosdict> If you got an achievement that someone else in your clan already got, or a Lesser Foo that someone else already got, it wouldn't help the clan.
13:47 <rld> <@luxidream> From the survey, I think the majority liked last years scoring too
13:47 <K2> they did
13:47 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> I see, I think I was under the wrong impression that there were smaller goals that were cumulative
13:47 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> Makes sense
13:48 <aosdict> we have... *checks* 120 lines of how scoring could be improved
13:49 <rld> <@Daniexpert> are those on github or private?
13:49 <Demo> my input on scoring is that i dont care about scoring
13:49 <Demo> its just fun when everyone plays nethack and i get stuff from people in the swap chest
13:50 <aosdict> internal tnnt design stuff, so it's private, but a lot of it is from last year's survey which the results got posted somewhere
13:50 <K2> looking
13:50 <K2> https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/kcs4pl/tnnt_2020_survey_results/
13:51 <aosdict> one major thing people are unhappy with is how the scoring heavily favors cranking out a massive number of ascensions, and taking time to do things with extra finesse isn't worth it
13:52 <rld> <@luxidream> I’m sure there’s at least one suggestion in that document that addresses that problem
13:53 <aosdict> yes, there is. leaderboards without points :P
13:53 <rld> <@Daniexpert> Is there a possibility to help and have access to those suggestions?
13:53 <aosdict> they let the ascension-crankers lead in their category, and the max conduct players, and the streakers, without having to assign value to these different aspects of nethack skill
13:55 <rld> <@Daniexpert> Because I could stay here and come up with dozens of suggestion, but I bet most of them would end up in the basket of already suggested or already discarded, so that's a waste of time for anyone willing to help
13:55 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> I’m curious how the conduct category will be scored?
13:56 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> Because within that there are people who can streak them, crank them out, and people who do insane amounts
13:56 <rld> <@Shadow_Rider> Or just hard ones
13:59 <rld> <@luxidream> the competition in TNNT is just between the people who can play at the top level then
13:59 <K2> @Daniexpert you wont know unless you do it
14:00 <K2> I wouldnt ever dissuade anyone from providing ideas or feedback
14:00 <aosdict> current plan is a leaderboard for max # of conducts in a game. at least for this year. there's probably some interesting graph theory you can do to find unusual conduct combinations but out of scope right now
14:00 <rld> <@luxidream> there aren't going to be new players who are going to want to fight for a first ascension or for achievements, because there's no longer any incentive to do that
14:01 <rld> <@luxidream> sure, maybe the old scoring system didn't do it well, but maybe it does better than no scoring in that regard
14:01 <aosdict> There is no less reason to do that now than there is under a points system. Again, this is the structural issue.
14:01 <rld> <@Daniexpert> K2, true, but my time is pretty limited and I'd like to know I'm using it efficiently. If I have to throw out ideas randomly until I find something that was never considered before, I'm sure I'd waste lots oftime
14:01 <rld> <@luxidream> under points, the new player scores ~50 points for their team
14:02 <aosdict> and now they're helping their clan advance on the most ascs leaderboard. why is this suddenly no longer an incentive?
14:05 <aosdict> scoring in 2020 tnnt was roughly proportionate to a clan's total number of ascensions, with some extra weight towards the top players. getting 50 points for your clan had about the same effect
14:09 <rld> <@luxidream> It's more impactful to help your team win overall, instead of on one specific leaderboard that doesn't matter because there is no overall winner, everyone wins
14:10 <aosdict> come on now
14:10 <aosdict> this isn't everyone wins
14:10 <aosdict> there are specific things that people can win in
14:11 <aosdict> but it's based on straight game data rather than us trying to figure out how many points it's worth
14:11 <aoei> wheeeee lotta scrollbax here
14:11 * aoei wonders if she'll find tiem to read it
14:11 <K2> you should
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14:12 <aoei> mf dont tell me waht i should :v
14:12 <aoei> im running with the big corps now, got shit to do ppl to see
14:13 <aoei> K2: write a summary with bullet points
14:13 <aoei> i'll have it on my desk tomorrow morning
14:13 <aoei> first thing
14:13 <aoei> thanks
14:13 <cbus> don't forget TPS reports
14:13 <aosdict> with executive summaries
14:13 <aoei> good idea cbus
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14:15 <K2> aoeo i have it already
14:15 <K2> aoei even
14:15 <K2> here:
14:15 <K2> 1) read the backscroll
14:15 <K2> 2) go to 1
14:15 <K2> 3) run
14:15 <K2> submit
14:16 <aosdict> unless aoei is in management I don't think she has that many meetings
15:17 * K2 hates work meetings
15:17 <K2> thankfully i dont have to attend very many
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16:15 <Not-a08> [tnnt] k21971 pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2] https://git.io/Ja5c4
16:15 <Not-a08> [tnnt] k21971 8fd3487 - Update tournament year in the dumplog, copyright date in-game.
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16:27 <Not-a08> [tnnt] copperwater pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/Ja5oR
16:27 <Not-a08> [tnnt] RojjaCebolla 0148326 - clarify the arena deathmatch loot
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