00:00 DAILY STATS AT 2018-11-12 00:00 UTC: Games: 540, Asc: 10, Scum: 132. 1176941 turns, 28143591 points. 13d 06:52 gametime. (49%Arc), (53%Dwa), (67%Law), (54%Mal), 18d 23:59 remaining. 00:02 [US] [D]: Tmasher (Wiz-Elf-Fem-Cha), 1163 points, 2968 turns, killed by a gnome 00:03 [EU] jt (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) killed Orcus, on T:39848 00:06 -!- ais523 has joined #tnnt 00:07 [EU] jt (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:40103 00:07 [EU] jt (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:40105 00:10 [EU] Guthix (Val Dwa Fem Law) became literate by engraving "aksjdhaksdhjah", on T:4397 00:11 [US] iyarkonan (Val Hum Fem Law) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:35193 00:11 [US] iyarkonan (Val Hum Fem Law) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:35195 00:12 [US] Delraven (Kni Hum Mal Law) had Sunsword bestowed upon him by Lugh, on T:7654 00:14 [US] iyarkonan (Val Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 shield of reflection", on T:35276 00:17 -!- noims has joined #tnnt 00:18 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail", on T:41766 00:19 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed fixed +2 speed boots", on T:41769 00:21 -!- spontiff has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:22 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:41826 00:25 [US] Entitas (Rog Hum Fem Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:24542 00:26 [US] Glord (Arc Gno Fem Neu) wished for "an uncursed fixed magic marker", on T:43074 00:28 [US] shadowcat (Val Hum Fem Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:3698 00:28 <@Webmant> imo the achievement should be made to be worth less 00:29 <@Webmant> Especially since more than 1 person can achieve it 00:29 <@Webmant> It'll just force every clan to get it to just be even 00:30 <@Webmant> Considering I am the only one to have gotten the Respectably Sized Impossible thus far, I wouldn't mind having it reduced to a more reasonable 100 points 00:30 [EU] jt (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) killed Asmodeus, on T:41168 00:30 <@luxidream> the clan only gets points for it once, right? 00:31 <@Webmant> yep 00:31 <@Webmant> So any clan who wants to compete will be forced to get it 00:31 <@Webmant> Which just seems like a lot of hassle 00:31 <@Webmant> Because 500 points is a huge discrepancy 00:31 [US] Entitas (Rog Hum Fem Cha) killed Baalzebub, on T:24901 00:33 [US] shadowcat (Val Hum Fem Law) chose an elven dagger to be named "Sting", on T:3967 00:33 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:42910 00:34 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) entered the Planes, on T:43010 00:34 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:43013 00:36 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed amulet of life saving", on T:43065 00:38 [US] iyarkonan (Val Hum Fem Law) killed Orcus, on T:36857 00:38 -!- shadowcat has joined #tnnt 00:39 [US] Entitas (Rog Hum Fem Cha) bribed Asmodeus with 400 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:25335 00:40 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:43103 00:42 [US] IceBox (Ran Elf Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:30770 00:42 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:43171 00:43 [US] stopgo (Val Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:11325 00:44 aosdict hah wooo 00:44 <@Tone> aosdict: Yeah I'm not a fan of the Respectably Sized Impossible challenge design personally 00:44 <@Tone> It feels like the scumming trophies from junethack 00:44 [US] [D]: shadowcat (Val-Hum-Fem-Law), 10838 points, 4433 turns, killed by a blue dragon 00:44 <@Tone> It basically requires a lot of luck that just needs to be brute forced 00:44 someone got the respectably sized impossible 00:44 [Ac] shadowcat just earned Breaking and Entering and Gullible. 00:44 and it wasnt luxidream 00:45 <@Tone> Yep 00:45 <@Tone> It's also leaving level 1 arc bones all over the server lol 00:45 one of our primary focus was to develop challenges that would deter scumming to achieve them 00:45 i dont think that's possible 100% 00:46 but its at least something we can strive towards 00:46 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Death, on T:43297 00:46 <@Tone> I think overall there isn't much incentive to scum in the tourney 00:46 <@Tone> not any more than a normal game 00:47 @Tone Well, literally everything in nethack / the tournament can be reframed as requiring a lot of luck and needing to be brute forced 00:47 hmmm 00:47 <@luxidream> if it can be achieved through scumming we can expect all the clans to have it, so I don't think it'll be a problem this year in terms of balance 00:47 i just had a thought 00:47 <@luxidream> ^there is no way to legitimately play a 15 conduct game outside of bones stuffing 00:47 [US] Delraven (Kni Hum Mal Law) made his first wish - "blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail", on T:8735 00:48 so ask yourself, whats the thing a player is looking to achieve immediately via scumming? the right combination of starting gear 00:48 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Death, on T:43323 00:48 gear and /or stats 00:49 so for a tournament, what can we do to eliminate that? level the playing field 00:49 by adjusting starting gear 00:49 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Death, on T:43336 00:49 discuss 00:50 [US] Qwesti (Tou Hum Mal Neu) murdered Ruff, his faithful little dog, on T:212 00:50 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Famine, on T:43353 00:50 @luxidream No, I don't think we can expect all the clans to have it. Webmant is an experienced multi-conduct player, and I'd be really surprised if anyone else wants to waste their time doing it less competently 00:50 [US] [D]: Qwesti (Tou-Hum-Mal-Neu), 99 points, 294 turns, killed by a jackal 00:51 off the top of my head... i'm thinking regardless of race/role, you start with your weapon set, your armor, and if a spellcaster, your starting spells (non casters can start with a tool of some sort) 00:51 no wands/rings/potions 00:51 or scrolls 00:51 K2: You can't adjust starting gear without making it not be nethack anymore, in the eyes of a large majority of players. 00:51 I think this is a no-sell. 00:51 you gave it all of 10 seconds 00:51 try again 00:51 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) received Excalibur, on T:2803 00:52 [US] Entitas (Rog Hum Fem Cha) destroyed the invisible Vlad the Impaler, on T:26244 00:52 [US] Entitas (Rog Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:26245 00:53 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) became literate by engraving "nx", on T:3200 00:53 i think its worth exploring 00:53 maybe run a few test scenarios 00:53 <@rikersan> nobody has ever done the great impossible, right? 00:53 do a few wizmode tests with a set criteria 00:53 <@rikersan> that would require pacifist and foodless both I believe iirc 00:53 @rikersan no not yet 00:53 <@luxidream> what would you consider for nonrandom wizard starting inventory K2? 00:53 K2: AceHack has a reroll option that lets you reroll for the starting gear you want, it was very controversial 00:54 additionally, even if you give fixed starting gear, people needing particular starting gear will scum for finding the items they need in the dungeon 00:54 hah reroll... reminds me of some d&d adventures i've played 00:54 [US] [D]: Qwesti (Tou-Hum-Mal-Neu), 81 points, 236 turns, killed by an arrow 00:54 ais523: if the player has to seatch the dungeon for the gear they want, thats not scumming. thats playing 00:54 (this happens somewhat even in vanilla; realtime speedrunners often want a source of both polymorph and polymorph control, which is not a possible combination in starting inventory, so they startscum for one, then dive through the first 2-3 levels in the hope of finding the other, typically in a shop) 00:54 *search 00:55 K2: it's scumming if you restart if you don't find it by dlvl 2 00:55 well thats just lazy 00:55 <--- says the guy who tosses weapons up to the ceiling on turn 1 00:56 <@luxidream> ais523: don't you mean gametime speedrunners? 00:56 Also see: fountain quaffing for a DL1 wish which can give arbitrary gear, and (more rarely) scumming for a random early wand of wishing. 00:56 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Famine, on T:43423 00:56 to everyone here, i would say before being so quick to shoot down my ideas, maybe come up with your own solution first 00:56 <@luxidream> polymorph is less important in realtime 00:56 My proposed solution is to make it worth less than 10 ascensions. 00:57 its a lot easier to say something wont work without having even tried it 00:57 <@luxidream> K2, can you elaborate more on your idea? what do you want to fix? 00:57 <@luxidream> stats? randomized items? 00:57 @luxidream: yes, I meant gametime 00:57 @luxidream what i am thinking, is that if the player knew it wouldnt do any good to startscum for gear, they wouldnt startscum 00:57 take away the incentive 00:57 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Pestilence, on T:43466 00:58 to everyone here, i would say before being so quick to shoot down my ideas, maybe come up with your own solution first ← this is a problem I've put a lot of thought into, and experimented with some ideas, so I'm letting you know what went wrong when I tried my approaches 00:58 ais523 ok. fair enough 00:58 K2: Also note, removing random items from starting inventory wouldn't be able to prevent earning this trophy. Webmant had a pickaxe, which he started with, and that was all he needed. 00:58 <@Webmant> I was actually hoping to find a scare tool 00:58 ok. so... what else we got then? 00:58 <@Webmant> A horn or drum 00:59 <@Webmant> I actually thought it was impossible without the two 00:59 my current plan as to what might work best would be a sort of point-buy system where you get to choose your starting items within bounds; however, it's not fully thought through and although I think I can design a UI for it which wouldn't bother either new or experienced players, not everyone agrees with me on that :-D 00:59 <@Webmant> And I was hoping to find it on the dig down 00:59 i started the discussion, someone smarter than me finish it 00:59 <@Webmant> I managed to do it without a drum/horn though 00:59 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "2 blessed potions of booze", on T:43490 00:59 <@luxidream> but is the problem really scumming, or the impossible trophies? 00:59 [EU] noims (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed ice box", on T:43490 00:59 ais523 thats interesting 00:59 but this is one of those problems where there may well be no good answers, and such problems are always hard to solve as the best answer can be hard to recognise even when you have it 00:59 <@luxidream> there really isn 01:00 <@Webmant> The impossible trophies are completely possible with the starting inventory and nothing else 01:00 @luxidream TNNT doesnt have a single trophies thats impossible to earn 01:00 <@Webmant> It just takes a good bit of luck with enemy spawns, portal spawns, and enemy pathing 01:00 some are just more difficult than others 01:00 <@luxidream> the main difficulty with the great impossible isn't skill, it's luck 01:00 <@Webmant> And thus as a trophy is just boring repetition to attempt to earn 01:00 <@luxidream> same with the small impossible 01:00 @luxidream you just described every nethack game ever played 01:00 <@Webmant> ^^^ 01:00 12 conducts in the same game, while known to be very likely possible in 3.4.3, is unlikely to be achieved; I know this because Tjr dedicated months to years to trying for it, and had a viable plan that worked, but didn't have the patience to go all the way through with it 01:01 I would be OK with the RSI being "yeah we accept that it's a lot easier to DFV this, but even DFVing you still need to preserve all the conducts to reach the quest leader". And then make it worth a lot less. 01:01 [EU] [A]: noims (Val-Dwa-Fem-Law), 2684290 points, 43491 turns, ascended 01:01 https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/n/noims/tnnt/dumplog/1541460413.tnnt.txt 01:01 (and left several games which had completed the first few parts of the plan saved due to being too scared to maybe splat the character) 01:01 [US] [D]: Dx34 (Bar-Orc-Fem-Cha), 114 points, 322 turns, killed by a gnome lord 01:01 [EU] Guthix (Val Dwa Fem Law) received Excalibur, on T:7780 01:01 <@rikersan> ais: did he put his plan somewhere? I wouldn't mind reading it 01:01 @rikersan: possibly, because I know I've seen it, but I can't remember where 01:02 it might just have been mentioned on IRC 01:02 <@luxidream> so in order to beat the great impossible, you need to seed bones with thousands of full healing and an archon figurine, as well as an artifact for slotless MR and an amulet of reflection 01:02 <@Webmant> @K2 Luxi is a good streaker, not every NetHack game requires luck 01:02 [Ac] noims just earned 71 new achievements. 01:02 <@luxidream> I'm not sure where the skill comes in there 01:02 but I know that a major part of it was to try to get a self-sustaining throne farm which was nutrition-positive 01:02 I can't remember what happened after that, though 01:02 @luxidream You still object to the tournament including Great Impossible at all, right? 01:02 (and throne farming has probably been fixed for 3.6) 01:02 @Webmant i would say that every nethack game ever won had at least some element of luck 01:02 good luck rather 01:02 @luxidream: oh, 12-conduct has been done via bones-stuffing 01:03 millionsof games have had bad luck 01:03 <@Webmant> Also, I didnt leave that many level 1 Arch bones, I just turned off bones after a while since they were ruining my odds 01:03 I didn't consider that legitimate though 01:03 <@rikersan> ais: found it, https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Tjr/12-conduct_ascension 01:03 <@luxidream> with zen and nudist I don't see how it's completable normally 01:03 <@rikersan> general notes 01:03 <@Webmant> I agree with Luxi 01:03 friendly reminder - Tariru slex 4 game streak 01:03 ais523: yes it's 14 conduct now (15 if you count elbereth) 01:03 <@Webmant> I dont see any way with the added Zen and Nudist conducts that it would be possible legitimately 01:03 no one thought that to even be remotely possible 01:03 yet there it is 01:04 <@Webmant> Honestly, you guys should have added boneless and swap chest-less as two additional conducts 01:04 K2: well, slex's balance is more like a more extreme version of vanilla slash'em's 01:04 @Webmant i'm not sure howwe could add a boneless conduct 01:04 K2: Tariru slex streaking could be attributed to slex's difficulty curve being actually a lot easier as you progress further, and this just not being a very well explored area 01:05 <@Webmant> I always play my multi-conduct games boneless when I am doing it for myself (not tournament) because with bones it would take away from the achievement 01:05 <@luxidream> I think the skill edge for anyone trying for the great impossible is minimal 01:05 K2: Xlog already tracks bonesless. 01:05 [US] Entitas (Rog Hum Fem Cha) killed Orcus, on T:27123 01:05 ah right 01:05 the player can set no bones 01:05 Even if they had bones enabled, the xlog tracks whether you ever loaded a bones file. 01:05 aosdict thats actually a good idea for next year (boneless and no swap chest conducts) 01:05 <@Webmant> You have been blind from birth. You have been an atheist. You have never hit with a wielded weapon. You have never genocided any monsters. You have never polymorphed an object. You have never changed form. You have used no wishes. You survived. No bones. 01:06 <@Webmant> For my Zen Samurai 01:06 slash'em is basically more difficult than vanilla until you figure out a way to break it, and then it's much easier 01:06 @Webmant We didn't want to discourage people from using the swap chest because of conducts. We wanted it to get used. 01:06 <@Webmant> With bones, it would have taken away from going wishless, atheist, etc. imo 01:06 <@luxidream> tjr's 12 conduct ascension includes throne farming 01:06 <@Webmant> Good point @aosdict 01:06 but now that ppl know about it and what it does 01:06 <@Webmant> It does make more conduct combos more possible 01:06 [EU] [D]: noims (Bar-Orc-Mal-Cha), 154 points, 528 turns, killed by a gas spore's explosion 01:07 moving forward its not a bad thing to have 01:07 'hey i won this game and never touched the swap chest' 01:07 heres your cookie 01:07 <@Webmant> The Swap Chest makes Illiterate much less impressive imo 01:07 I think adding a 16th and 17th conduct will kill Great Impossible/Respectable Impossible anyway. 01:07 [US] [D]: shadowcat (Val-Hum-Fem-Law), 1302 points, 2661 turns, killed by a dwarf zombie, while frozen by a monster's gaze 01:07 <@Webmant> Whats the point of being Illiterate if you get two pieces of +5 gear anyhow? 01:08 aosdict: we could then make the 'almost but not quite great impossible' 01:08 or the 'diet great impossible' 01:08 <@Webmant> I dont mean to sound rude by any metric, just giving my feedback about the swap chest and its relation to conducts 01:08 [EU] [D]: noims (Wiz-Gno-Mal-Neu), 37 points, 204 turns, fell into a pit 01:08 just one calorie 01:09 @Webmant this is the kind of feedback we need to see 01:09 cant make improvements if we dont know what the problems are 01:09 <@Webmant> For example, in my Zen, Vegan, Illiterate Monk that I ended up whiffing 01:09 <@Webmant> I got a +5 Helm of Telepathy in Mine's End (how I got to it without ESP and blind, don't ask me) 01:09 LUCK 01:10 <@Webmant> It did take away from the challenge of being Vegan+Zen and the challenge of being Illiterate a good bit 01:10 @luxidream see? luck ;) 01:10 K2: Meh, I'm losing interest in the idea of stacking up all possible conducts as a goal. Luxidream and Webmant are right, the more you tack on, the more scummy and random it needs to be. At some point skill just becomes irrelevant. 01:10 [US] bouquet (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) had Trollsbane bestowed upon her by Thoth, on T:17967 01:10 <@Webmant> The Great Impossible, imo is probably an awful idea 01:10 <@Webmant> I am completely for its removal 01:10 And that makes it more "how patient are you / how much time do you have to devote to this" rather than "how good at NetHack are you", which is what it's supposed to be measuring. 01:10 <@Webmant> Unless you add boneless and swap chest-less as conducts required for the Great Impossible 01:11 the swap chest probably makes it more interesting rather than less, to be fair 01:11 so what would be a difficult trophy to earn that doesnt require scumming or bones stuffing? 01:11 what would be considered worthy? 01:11 work out what swap chest item would help most and use it to reduce the luck required 01:11 <@Webmant> True 01:11 <@Webmant> Then just add boneless 01:12 and just to add, this is why adding E word conduct was such a big deal (to any variant) 01:12 K2: well, the basic problem here is that being good at NetHack effectively means being able to work out the best thing to do in a range of situations, but that's a very hard skill to test when you can't control the situation the game throws at you 01:12 that showed you could win with a certain lvl of skill 01:12 [US] [D]: Kame (Rog-Hum-Fem-Cha), 513 points, 1380 turns, killed by a kitten 01:12 individual conducts test that to some extent by diversifying the game somewhat, as do individual pairs of conducts, but there's likely a point beyond which combining them becomes less interesting 01:12 <@Webmant> In my opinion, conducts are a good addition to the game 01:12 <@Webmant> Its just bones really ruins it imo 01:12 what ais523 said 01:13 and it's not just conducts that lead to interesting situations 01:13 [EU] tacco (Hea Gno Fem Neu) made her first wish - "blessed greased +2 gray dragon scale mail", on T:20767 01:13 perhaps it'd be interesting to have a game mode that starts you in a situation ~5 moves before someone else died, and you have to try to win from there; this is more a YANI for general purposes rather than specifically something that would be easy to do in a tournament 01:14 As you add more conducts, the available options for actual planned strategy sharply decrease. 01:14 -!- rebatela has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:14 ais523 thats also known as 'bones next to the stairs' 01:14 go down oh look an arch lich 01:14 on dlvl 8 01:14 hah 01:15 queue monty pythons 'run away!' 01:15 K2: except that you have the other person's items /rather than/ yours, as opposed to /as well as/ yours 01:15 that makes a huge difference 01:15 so you step into their role 01:15 hmm 01:15 one issue, though, is that many NetHack deaths aren't a slow slide into impossibility over time, but rather an instant consequence of doing something really stupid 01:15 oh shit... hah 01:16 had a weird idea 01:16 This would require some sort of rewindability. 01:16 So, NH$. 01:16 NH4 01:16 aosdict: right 01:16 the data is in the ttyrec 01:18 well 01:18 something to think about 01:18 we have a year to think of improvements 01:19 [EU] tacco (Hea Gno Fem Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:20783 01:19 ALL - by the way, clan creation and invites have been turned off, about an hour ago 01:19 got so wrapped up in the conversation... forgot to announce ;) 01:19 [US] [D]: shadowcat (Val-Hum-Fem-Law), 1186 points, 2446 turns, killed by a water moccasin 01:21 [EU] [D]: noims (Wiz-Gno-Mal-Neu), 358 points, 931 turns, killed by a kitten, while praying 01:28 <@Tone> @rikersan I think TJR's 12 conduct musings are on his wiki page 01:28 <@luxidream> yeah riker linked them 01:29 <@Tone> ah sorry, I'm still deep in back scroll 01:31 [US] [D]: Kame (Rog-Hum-Fem-Cha), 2372 points, 8515 turns, killed by a jaguar, while fainted from lack of food 01:32 I think one problem with restrictions meant to make NetHack more difficult is that the closer to optimal play you attempt in NetHack, the more tedious it becomes 01:32 NetHack isn't really a game for people who like to play optimally 01:32 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) rejected atheism by offering an acid blob corpse on an altar of Brigit, on T:4095 01:32 it's a game that lets you choose your own way to play suboptimally, and is happy to roll with it 01:33 -!- shadowcat has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:33 Well, because it's really hard, it encourages people to seek out the most optimal ways to play, though. 01:33 yes 01:34 this is probably the largest reason why many experienced roguelike players dislike NetHack 01:34 they try to play it optimally, due to believing it to be hard, and then get bored 01:34 I guess one way to think about NetHack is that it /is/ hard, but not in such a way that playing optimally will make it easier 01:34 But it does make it easier. 01:35 -!- nooodle has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:35 so what I read from that was 'nothing i do at the beginning makes this game easier, so i quit' 01:36 from my point of view, it's more like: there are many, many things that kill NetHack characters, but being underlevelled/underprepared is a very small proportion of such deaths (except in the Planes) 01:36 a lot of deaths are either poor decisions or just dumb luck 01:36 right 01:37 you cant fix either of those 01:37 and grinding out every small advantage you can in a boring way doesn't really help with either 01:37 (in fact, fatigue often makes the "bad decisions" problem worse) 01:37 hah tell me about it 01:37 lately i'm the king of 'oh i got 4 hours of sleep, thats more than last night yay' 01:38 ive helped the devteam and all i got was this shirt 01:38 :D 01:38 I'm /on/ the devteam and they didn't even give me a shirt! 01:39 so how strong are the devteam monsters? >:) 01:39 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a hill orc, on T:5074 01:39 we should take a poll and ask before each new game started, amount of sleep had the night before, and the amount of alcohol currently in your system 01:39 tacco\unfoog I would normally say 'go find out' but i really wouldnt ;) 01:39 tacco\unfoog: the general advice in this channel is "don't even think about angering them" 01:39 yea i figured 01:40 [US] [D]: Dx34 (Bar-Orc-Fem-Cha), 2842 points, 3594 turns, killed by a killer bee 01:40 nice to see unfoog competing again, btw 01:40 deki is around as well 01:40 I'd probably join again if I was actually participating in the tournament but I have too many other things to do, and so likely won't play in the tournament at all 01:41 i wonder if there's a way to hook up a breathalyzer to dgl... 01:41 so the shirt gives warning? 01:41 one thing it does yeah 01:43 hmm, apparently devices do exist that make it possible to connect a breathalyzer to a computer and use it as an input, but a result I chose arbitrarily cost $314.95 01:43 brb, kiddo bedtime 01:43 [US] Kame (Rog Hum Fem Cha) had Orcrist bestowed upon her by Kos, on T:5779 01:43 if the other possibilities have comparable prices, it's probably not feasible to buy one for every user so that we can use them as inputs to dgl 01:43 [US] cassiopeiastar (Val Dwa Fem Law) performed her first genocide (class L), on T:26496 01:43 whats the invocation of the shirt? 01:44 [EU] Guthix (Val Dwa Fem Law) polymorphed her first object, on T:10108 01:45 tacco\unfoog: when I tried I got "nothing happens." 01:45 -!- elenmirie_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45 try looking it up in the encyclopedia 01:47 gotcha 01:47 [US] [D]: Dx34 (Bar-Orc-Fem-Cha), 195 points, 754 turns, killed by a small mimic 01:50 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:5895 01:53 [US] [D]: Luxidream (Kni-Hum-Fem-Law), 10937 points, 6238 turns, killed by an invisible titan 01:55 ais523 i think you can get a cheap breathalyzer that plugs into a smartphone 01:56 could adapt for a terminal 01:56 side note - was telling my kid a bedtime story and it gave me an idea for a new monster 01:56 [US] Kame (Rog Hum Fem Cha) had Trollsbane bestowed upon her by Kos, on T:9144 01:56 -!- realinari has joined #tnnt 02:00 Hourly Stats at 2018-11-12 02:00 UTC: Games: 16, Asc: 0, Scum: 3. 27788 turns, 20079 points. (31%Bar), 18d 21:59 remaining. 02:02 [US] lunatunez (Val Hum Fem Law) killed the invisible Lord Surtur, on T:17950 02:02 [US] lunatunez (Val Hum Fem Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:17952 02:04 -!- noims has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:06 [US] [D]: Dx34 (Bar-Orc-Fem-Cha), 1587 points, 2461 turns, killed by a gnome lord 02:12 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 02:15 [US] Kame (Rog Hum Fem Cha) was chosen to steal souls for the Glory of Kos, on T:17382 02:15 <@rikersan> k2: what's the new monster? I'm curious 02:16 heh 02:16 its silly really 02:16 but if mini-me knew i added a monster because of the stories i tell her, she'd be impressed 02:16 enter the 'bad witch' 02:17 throwing a potion of water at it would make it melt like the wicked witch of the west from the wizard of oz 02:17 [US] [D]: jmcunx (Val-Hum-Fem-Law), 331 points, 999 turns, poisoned by a rotted jackal corpse 02:18 do you read her the Oz books? Probably aimed at readers of her age. 02:19 no i just make up stories 02:19 wing it 02:20 [US] [D]: Karnac (Val-Dwa-Fem-Law), 672 points, 1243 turns, killed by a bolt of lightning (and 4 others) 02:20 <@Tone> ais523: I love your idea of putting someone in a situation another player was in that resulted in death 02:20 i draw off of whatever i know about or have read. sometimes even off of nethack games 02:20 well if you wanted to take inspiration for monsters from somewhere... that would be a large source 02:20 <@Tone> It would be neat to design specific scenarios, similar to chess challenges 02:20 @Tone: oh yes, I like that, NetHak puzzles 02:20 *NetHack puzzles 02:21 i think i asked a long time ago if it'd be possible to work in a small 'battle chess' puzzle to nethack 02:21 remember battel chess? the pieces would kill each other 02:21 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:3945 02:21 rook would eat the pieces it took hah 02:21 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) received Excalibur, on T:4066 02:21 "You have only an unidentified scroll, a potion of confusion, you have only your leather jacket and rusty +0 orcish short sword, you're at 2 HP, and a tiger is bounding towards you from across the Mines. What do you do?" 02:22 the macgyver challenge 02:22 ais523: I guess such puzzles would have various different win conditions 02:22 but also, the randomness in the game... a nonzero amount of the time you could just calmly stand there and whack the tiger to death while it misses you 02:23 [US] [D]: Karnac (Val-Dwa-Fem-Law), 156 points, 342 turns, killed by a scroll of earth 02:23 you have a rubber hose, a tin opener and a key in your inventory and have time enough to wield just one before the master lich decends upon you. choose wisely 02:23 OK, so what about this: any random result, you can choose what happens, /but/ the game records the probability of what you chose 02:24 and when you complete it, your score is based on how unlikely the sequence of random events you chose was 02:24 less unlikely = better 02:24 ais523 like those books where the reader rolled a die and that determined which way the story went 02:24 sort of 02:25 i cant stop looking at this pic of macgyver 02:26 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) had Demonbane bestowed upon her by Lugh, on T:5013 02:29 <@Tone> ooh that's an interesting idea ais523 02:30 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) had Werebane bestowed upon her by Lugh, on T:6367 02:31 we'd probably need to set up the puzzle mode to be perfect-information 02:31 <@Tone> Keeping it dumb and simple, I figure most puzzles would have a more-or-less intended solution, but the player could probably solve it in a few other ways, and there would also be a random chance aspect involved (due to the nature of the game), but they'd be short enough that you could make a few attempts without it being annoying or frustrating 02:31 but that's best for puzzles anyway 02:31 [US] [D]: Dx34 (Bar-Orc-Fem-Cha), 374 points, 1449 turns, killed by a dwarf 02:33 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) was crowned "The Hand of Elbereth" by Lugh, on T:8810 02:33 @Tone Well, there are still various win conditions. Like, maybe you read your unidentified scroll and it's teleportation and you land somewhere far away and safe, is that a "solution"? 02:33 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) made her first wish - "2 blessed greased scrolls of charging", on T:8827 02:33 Actually, how would the "unlikeliness" mechanic interact with something like teleportation? 02:33 aosdict: this sort of thing is why puzzles normally have to be perfect information 02:34 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased +2 silver dragon scale mail", on T:8831 02:34 [AU] Andrio (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed Yeenoghu, on T:72438 02:34 ais523: so the puzzle would say "this is a teleportation scroll and if you read it on this turn you will land on (36, 11)? 02:34 mathematically, unlikelyness for teleportation would be "you select a set of squares you think you can win from, then have to win from the worst possible square in the set, unlikeliness is based on how large the set is" 02:34 but "worst possible square" can be hard to define 02:34 aosdict: oh, that's another possibility 02:35 <@Tone> aosdict: Right, there would have to be an explicit win condition for each puzzle, I suppose. "Survive X turns." "Retrieve the [item]". "Exit the level." "Slay the [monster]." etc 02:36 now I'm wondering what a NetHack-alike without randomness would look like 02:36 (there are plenty of /roguelikes/ without randomness but they tend to be quite far from NetHack) 02:36 [US] [D]: Karnac (Val-Dwa-Fem-Law), 490 points, 1047 turns, killed by a wand 02:42 <@Tone> ais523: Would levels and monster/item generation still be random? 02:42 [US] [D]: Karnac (Val-Dwa-Fem-Law), 380 points, 810 turns, killed by a wererat, while frozen by a monster's gaze (and 1 others) 02:42 <@Tone> or is it just the results of actions that are predetermined 02:43 levels would be random but nothing else would, I think 02:43 monsters and items generate with the level and are treated as part of it 02:44 <@Tone> hmm that's an interesting idea 02:44 -!- remirol has joined #tnnt 02:44 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:46 [US] [D]: jmcunx (Val-Hum-Fem-Neu), 2849 points, 4344 turns, killed by a soldier ant 02:46 [Ac] jmcunx just earned Playerbanebane. 02:46 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:12377 02:47 [AU] Andrio (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed the invisible Orcus, on T:72863 02:50 [US] Kame (Rog Hum Fem Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:22296 02:59 [AU] Andrio (Sam Hum Mal Law) averted death, on T:73776 03:00 [US] IceBox (Ran Elf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed magic marker", on T:32522 03:05 -!- nooodle has joined #tnnt 03:10 [US] IceBox (Ran Elf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed magic marker", on T:33606 03:13 [US] Karnac (Val Dwa Fem Law) received Excalibur, on T:2948 03:14 [US] IceBox (Ran Elf Fem Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:33702 03:17 [US] Luxidream (Kni Hum Fem Law) performed her first genocide (class h), on T:16648 03:19 turn 90862 (pacifist/illiterate): lost second archon because it was, unbenownst to me, in a web, and I displaced it 03:20 ais523, does Crypt of the NecroDancer count? 03:20 -!- Bugpowder has joined #tnnt 03:20 Turn-based strategy, most of the monsters are completely deterministic 03:20 (except the freaking bats) 03:21