Proposition 8

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Proposition 8

Postby Nad » Nov 1st, 2008 at 8:42 pm

http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 1819819843

Figured I'd get a discussion fired up, and at the very least see what Timmy has to say about it.
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Postby sX » Nov 1st, 2008 at 10:17 pm

Fuck the children!

...

:D

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Postby Timmy » Nov 2nd, 2008 at 12:15 am

I couldn't even watch the whole thing, so much bullshit coming out of one mouth, it's like a septic tank burst.

Oh noes they might teach same sex marriage in school, at kindergarten!!! Yeah ok, I know marriage is a hot topic for 6 year olds, much more important than coloring and nap time..... So fuckign what if they do? All the good Christian "straight" kids gonna catch the gay cooties? The churches are just pushing prop 8 any way they can cuz they wanna be gay bashers and not lose their precious tax exemption which they shouldn't have to start with......

Lets look at the one bit of text from "Gods word" that all the gay bashing religeous zealots use to "prove" gay marriage is wrong. Leviticus 20:13 If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination: let them be put to death. Their blood be upon them. Well now if we really want to be following the bible as it's written shouldn't these good christians be killing off all the gay men? (Bible doesn't say shit about Lesbians, god must be into 3 somes). So umm it's ok if they have sex despite the bible saying its an abomination, but no to marriage!!!!!

Of course we'll all follow that one from Leviticus, but well all skip Lev 11:7 cuz bacon is good, and 11:12 cuz who wants to miss out on crab, lobster, and shrimp?

Then of course we have Lev 11:20, no eating of 4 legged flying things...... so Pegasus did exist? Or are we talking flying squirrels (pretty much the only 4 legged "flyer")

Lev 15:19-33 is chock full of fun shit for women's monthly flows.....

Of course we'll just pick and choose what we follow, cuz you know, God's cool with us doing whatever the fuck we want right, as long as we use the bible to persecute others and not ourselves :D


Tim~

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Postby Nad » Nov 2nd, 2008 at 9:27 am

Now now Timmy, if you're going to use biblical references to prove a point, you at least need to understand it. The bible says no one should sleep with their brother, sister, mother, father, their spouses or their siblings, not just that a man shouldn't pork another man.

Most of the food laws, repentance laws, offerings and what not were Jewish laws that many Jews still follow today. It was the New Testament where the gentile was saved and given laws to follow, and a final sacrifice was made for everyone.

On the subject, I could really care less. Yes, I'm a church going Christian, but I also understand that in this country marriage is nothing more then the legal forming of a corporation between 2 people, with tax incentives for both. You won't find gays and lesbians standing in a church, swearing an oath to God and the other witnesses there, so they can go off and do whatever they want. I do, however, have a huge problem with schools teaching that crap to kindergartners. If a school is going to teach sex, marriage, and all that jazz, it needs to be at the appropriate age and parents have the right to know its going to happen. If you believe that the schools and government should have the right to decide what your kids need to learn and at what age they should learn it, I hear there are some nice green pastures in West Texas that are just perfect for sheep.
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Postby Timmy » Nov 2nd, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Please, understand it? Like anyone understands the bible, everyone interprets it the way they want, and the smart people just ignore it since it was written by a collective of religeous leaders and not "sent by God".

The main reason the new testament was written was because it was sooo hard to follow the old testament, especially since civilization was progressing and much of the old testament is barbaric.

I think I quoted it well, Lev 20:13 is what the bible thumpers use to condemn gay marriage. Although if they actually read on they'd see that God himself is supposed to punish the transgressors with poverty, heat, and blindness. I've yet to see a poor, blind, overly tan gay couple so he must be slacking off.

As for it being taught to Kindergarteners, where is the proof? There is no rule set saying it HAS to be taught to 6 year olds, and I dare say it isn't on any real teachers curriculum. I went through public school my entire life, didn't learn a thing about marriage in it, gay or straight. I learned about that at home where everyone else does.

All the kiddy shit is a smoke screen as I said before, they just don't want to lose their tax exemption for being gay bashers so they make up this bullshit about teaching it to the childrens.

If yer so scared send the kiddies to private school where they can learn all about the myth that is God.


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Postby Nad » Nov 2nd, 2008 at 11:18 pm

Well Timmy, I don't quite know where to start. I'll give it a shot. First, the Bible is the inspired word of God. "God breathed" is the quote used in the Bible. Since you obviously don't believe there is a god, it shouldn't matter to you who sent it.

I'm stuck on your view of why the New Testament was written. You speak of it like the OT was a list of rules the Jews had to follow, and since that was too hard for them the NT was written as a list of new rules that your average joe could handle. There is far more to it than that, but if you haven't read it you wouldn't understand it.

As for Lev 20:13, "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

That is pretty clear, if you like to pack the fudge, you were to be put to death. Reading other similar examples, you were to be taken outside the city gate and stoned to death. Didn't read anywhere that "God himself is supposed to punish the transgressors with poverty, heat and blindness."

As for it being taught to Kindergarteners, where is the proof? There is no rule set saying it HAS to be taught to 6 year olds, and I dare say it isn't on any real teachers curriculum. I went through public school my entire life, didn't learn a thing about marriage in it, gay or straight. I learned about that at home where everyone else does.


What proof are you looking for? It has already happened in this particular classroom, and if the decision to teach marriage and family is being left up to kindergarten teachers, we might as well shut down the public school system all together and save some money. Gay marriage wasn't even a thought when the two of us went through grade school, of course you didn't hear anything about it. Every kid learned about straight marriage, 99% of us came from one.

As for the kiddy stuff being a smoke screen for the gay bashers trying to keep a tax exemption.... The exemption isn't all that great, and honestly I think a father should have a say so in whether or not his child is taught that homosexuality is "okay." If you have children someday, you'll realize that.
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Postby Timmy » Nov 3rd, 2008 at 12:47 pm

Ok first off, I've probably read more of the bible that the average church goer. Believe it or not I've been to church quite a bit, and not just of one denomination. I've been to Roman Catholic, Non-denomination Christian, Judaism, and Mormon. At one point I actually wanted to believe, but I never felt anything that every born again swears you feel. As for not understanding the bible, again, no one really understands it, it was written so fucking long ago most of it's wording gibberish and subject to very loose interpretation. If it was nice and clear cut and easy to follow you think we'd have hundreds of different denomination churches? I stand by my New Testament thoughts, the Old Testament was harsh the New Testament pretty much eliminates all the harshness of the old.

Don't you think we're due for a New New Testament?

I don't get how you can be ok with gay marriage yet against kids learning its ok? Unless of course you're lying and just don't want to be seen as a gay basher. You one of those who believe gayness is a choice, and if the schools teach it more kids will grow up gay? I don't have kids but I have plenty of nieces and nephews, and I could care less if they "turn out" gay or straight.

I honestly believe its genetic, my aunts brother is gay, but she's straight she had 2 kids both of whom were raised as church going Catholics. Her daughter is straight but her son is gay despite not being taught jack shit about gay marriage, or gayness at all (the uncle was in the closet and had little to no contact with the kids). Now my cousin (the girl) had a child with her then husband, and while he's not old enough yet to make the decision, everyone agrees he's gonna be gay. This despite the fact that he's half Tongan and was raised Tongan (and still is), the dad is in denial and has probably been even harder on my nephew trying to make him a true Tongan male.

So I'm pretty sure it's not a choice.


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Postby Nad » Nov 3rd, 2008 at 6:19 pm

Timmy wrote:
I don't get how you can be ok with gay marriage yet against kids learning its ok? Unless of course you're lying and just don't want to be seen as a gay basher. You one of those who believe gayness is a choice, and if the schools teach it more kids will grow up gay? I don't have kids but I have plenty of nieces and nephews, and I could care less if they "turn out" gay or straight.

Tim~


I'm not for gay marriage at all. I just said that I don't really care what the state of California does in regards to it because society today has taken what was once a covenant between a man and a woman made before God and their families and turned it into a legal document that saves you a few thousand a year on your taxes.

As for the genetics stuff, i agree there has to be something to it. I also know that the Greeks back in Alexander the Great's rule weren't all genetically programmed to be gay, but I assure you most of the men in their civilization fancied young boys.

As for you wanting to believe, I don't know what I could say that would help you understand. If you can handle the concept of faith, and understand that the only person ever to walk this planet completely sinless was beaten, spit on, cursed at and eventually nailed to a tree and bled to death while everyone mocked him just so that you would have the option to believe and accept a sacrifice that got you an eternity of happiness, you shouldn't have a problem "believing." The problem most people have with Christianity is that faith is a concept we're taught to live without in today's world. If you can't see it, feel it, hear it, smell it or taste it, its not really there or it didn't really happen.

The devil's greatest feat was convincing the world he didn't exist. The sad part is so many have heard the truth, but its so much easier to just do what you want now and suffer the consequences later when its too late to change your mind. Think long and hard about what you've learned reading the bible and attending church. I went 26 years going to church every Sunday, spent 12 years in a Christian school, and absolutely hated every single thing about Christians. I thought they were hypocrites, liars, overly judgmental a-holes who thought their own crap didn't stink. Then I realized that accepting Christ as your savior doesn't mean you don't sin anymore, it means that your sins are forgiven and you have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to guide your life until you die, then its an eternity in paradise. We're still human and all humans are evil, but our sins have been redeemed.

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..
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Postby rekloose-[PUPPY] » Nov 4th, 2008 at 12:41 am

What consenting people choose to do in their bedroom is of no concern to and it should be of no concern to the government.

I think homosexual couples can love each other just as much as heterosexual ones can. I also think that they should be afforded the same rights (hospital visitation, taxes, inheritance, etc).

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Postby Best_predator » Nov 4th, 2008 at 2:10 am

rekloose-[PUPPY] wrote:What consenting people choose to do in their bedroom is of no concern to and it should be of no concern to the government.

I think homosexual couples can love each other just as much as heterosexual ones can. I also think that they should be afforded the same rights (hospital visitation, taxes, inheritance, etc).


I'm gona agree with that. Even if it is a "personal choice" to be gay it shouldn't be anyones business. Although, since marriage IS a religious bind between 2 people it should be consulted and consented with appropriate people.
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Postby K2 » Nov 4th, 2008 at 6:49 am

Marriage is deeply rooted in religion, but they don't go hand in hand. Try not to make that misconception.

I agree with puppy. If he and sX wanna make it official, no one should be able to tell them they can't.

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Postby Timmy » Nov 4th, 2008 at 8:09 am

Marriage existed long before the church, it wasn't until medieval times when religeon worked its way into the government did it come under church influence. This of course being a huge boom to Christianity as it literally forced people to become church goers and donators or risk being denied marriage based on on "spritual affinity", but of course this never happened.....




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Postby Campsalot » Nov 4th, 2008 at 10:40 am

Timmy... Nad is correct in his comments and you are incorrect in yours regarding the Leviticus passage. You have to read the New Testament and what it says about Old Testament law before you go pulling passages out and using them as leverage against something.

The issue with homosexuality in regards to the bible is no different than the issue of murder or even habitual lying. The problem is not the act so much as it is the unrepentance of the act. If a person lies but then repents and asks for forgiveness, they are forgiven. The sin of lying is no different (weight/value/etc.) than the sin of homosexuality (yes, it is a sin). The New Testament passage you need read is 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. At the end of the day, though, if you choose not to believe, that is your choice. Distorting scripture and saying that "no one really understands the bible" is not going to help your case, though.

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Postby Timmy » Nov 4th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

So enlighten me Camps, what does the New Testament say about the old? I mean thats alot of reading just to figure out what from the Old Testament no longer applies today. Do you have to confess and beg forgiveness every time you eat at Red Lobster?

As for it being unclear, you both say I'm the one that is wrong yet neither of you can give me an answer as to why despite the bible being the word of god it's interpreted differently by millions of people. If it was such a powerful tool of god, there would only be one religion claiming the book. Oh and please refrain from the generic bible study cover all answers like "The lord works in mysterious ways" or "God gave us the ability to choose".

Being gay is a sin, and they don't repent it yet God hasn't done jack shit to enforce his word like he promised, or did Jesus half cover that? Its still a sin but God won't layeth the smack down, instead he relies on his sheep to push intollerance.


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Postby sX » Nov 4th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

K2 wrote:I agree with puppy. If he and sX wanna make it official, no one should be able to tell them they can't.


I totally agree..

Puppy, call me.

I love you..

In more ways than Juan..

er, one..

..

:D

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Postby Campsalot » Nov 6th, 2008 at 5:23 pm

See Timmy, I struggle with even trying to reply to you because you seem to be intolerant of Christians. That said, there is nothing I can say to change your mind. If you don't believe in the Cannonization of Scripture then you won't believe a word I say about how the bible is 100% historically accurate, means the same in every language, etc. Yes, there are parts of the bible that are left to interpretation and yes, some people distort the meaning of scripture and craft it to support their beliefs. But the bottom line is that if their beliefs are not congruent with God's teachings, then their interpretation is wrong. For example, someone might pull a passage out of 1 Kings where it shows Solomon with hundreds of wives and then say "see.. the bible supports polygamy." Since they are not looking at the other passages in the bible where God addresses this issue they are distorting the scripture and interpreting incorrectly.

Also, I didn't say that the NT completely negates the OT. What I said was specifically pertaining to what the NT says about OT (Mosaic) law.

Lastly, no where in scripture does God talk about a definitive timeline (meaning year/month/day/time) that he will punish people for their sins. He does, however, say that those that do not ask forgiveness for their sins and accept Christ as their Savior before Christ returns (or they die) will be punished eternally in hell. Now you can choose to call that intolerance or crap or whatever else, but it does not change the truth of it.

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Postby Timmy » Nov 6th, 2008 at 7:54 pm

Thats part of my point Camps, lets just say the bible is 100% fact and historically correct, why is it then that there are so many different denominations? You say some interpret it wrong, but who's to say YOUR church isn't the one that has it wrong? The Amish point to the Dominion over animals to justify their abusive puppy mills (the main income of most Amish communities, no it ain't the ham!). As you pointed out there is an off-shoot of the Mormons that uses the bible to justify polygamy.

My biggest beef with the Bible is that all who use it claim it is unfallable, 100% accurate and totally above scrutiny despite the fact that it was written by men, and rewritten many many times, not to mention that dozens if not hundreds of DIFFERENT religions claim it.


Tim~

I'm not intollerant of Christians, I'm intollerant of intollerance.

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Postby K2 » Nov 7th, 2008 at 3:10 am

I'm kinda sorta lactose intolerant.

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Postby rekloose-[PUPPY] » Nov 10th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

on the plus side, the Governator just said that:

'We will maybe undo' Prop 8

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/09/ ... 226279859/

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Postby Jennthrotull » Nov 10th, 2008 at 10:16 pm

K2 wrote:Marriage is deeply rooted in religion, but they don't go hand in hand. Try not to make that misconception.

I agree with puppy. If he and sX wanna make it official, no one should be able to tell them they can't.


I agree (with the first part) - I would not consider our marriage to be "a religious bond" in any way shape or form. Just the thought of ithatmakes me shudder. So since I am not religious at all (as in agnostic, or recovering catholic - take your pic), would one consider my marriage to somehow be less valid?

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Postby sX » Nov 11th, 2008 at 1:03 am

So you don't agree with me and puppy making gay man sex?

Gah..

Oh yeah? Well I misread you comment and thought you said recovering alcoholic..

Yeah, you like that?

...

Ok, i have nothing..

:/


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Postby Timmy » Nov 11th, 2008 at 8:20 am

Jennthrotull wrote:
K2 wrote:Marriage is deeply rooted in religion, but they don't go hand in hand. Try not to make that misconception.

I agree with puppy. If he and sX wanna make it official, no one should be able to tell them they can't.


I agree (with the first part) - I would not consider our marriage to be "a religious bond" in any way shape or form. Just the thought of ithatmakes me shudder. So since I am not religious at all (as in agnostic, or recovering catholic - take your pic), would one consider my marriage to somehow be less valid?



Not at all, since marriage is a government thing, and has been since it's creation, religion just tried to take it as yet another means to force people into churches. Does the church issue the marriage certificate? No, you have to get the certificate from the government THEN go to the church and get married.

Thousands of people each year skip the wedding part altogether and just go get their bonds made legal by the government which is how it should be. You don't need a church for a wedding, and more and more people each year are realizing that. You don't need a pastor/bishop/reverend/grand poohbah to do your vows, you could have your neighbor ask you them, you could get everyones favorite beaner sX to do it since it's the marriage certificate that matters.

Although sX would probably be drunk by the time the vows came up so maybe that's not the best idea......

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Postby Nad » Nov 11th, 2008 at 8:31 am

Timmy wrote:
Not at all, since marriage is a government thing, and has been since it's creation, religion just tried to take it as yet another means to force people into churches.

Tim~


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Postby K2 » Nov 11th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#History

And a quote:

From the early Christian era, marriage was thought of as primarily a private matter, with no religious or other ceremony being required.


Read the entire wikipedia entry to get the full scoop.

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Postby Phoenix » Nov 11th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

You are a recovering Catholic, you are stuck with the guilt, we can never remove the guilt.
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