Proposition 8

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Nad
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Postby Nad » Nov 12th, 2008 at 8:22 am

K2 wrote:Link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#History

And a quote:

From the early Christian era, marriage was thought of as primarily a private matter, with no religious or other ceremony being required.


Read the entire wikipedia entry to get the full scoop.


The early Christian era came over 4000 years after marriage was first mentioned in any sort of written document(the Bible).

But quoting directly from that wiki page.

The way in which a marriage is conducted has changed over time, as has the institution itself. Although the institution of marriage pre-dates reliable recorded history, many cultures have legends or religious beliefs concerning the origins of marriage.[11]
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Postby K2 » Nov 12th, 2008 at 9:36 am

Right. Some cultures incorporate religion and marriage, and some don't. Christianity didn't used to incorporate it, but now they do. The point being made is, marriage and religion are not exclusive to each other. They are separate entities that sometimes happen to cross paths.

Super short version - marriage did not and does not require religion.

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Postby Nad » Nov 12th, 2008 at 11:44 am

The point was, Timmy claimed marriage has always been a government thing, and it was not in its earliest form. Go back to the oldest "history" book, being the Pentateuch, and government had nothing to do with it.

If you don't believe the Pentateuch to be true or accurate, then by your own wiki source, marriage existed before any recorded history, and making the claim that marriage was government and religion had nothing to do with it is nothing more then a personal opinion and should be stated as such, not fact.
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Postby Timmy » Nov 12th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Ok so again we use the bible as an accurate depiction of history. The pentateuch is merely the first 5 books of the bible, so here we now have to agree that it is a history book, and not a work of fiction. Again its funny that all the miracles and such happened way back in the times when there is no written correllations outside of the church to confirm or deny their happenings.

It's funny that one of the oldest civilizations that actually had a written language (well symbols mostly) and actually supposedly had contact with early christians has no record of it.

Nad I know you want to believe the world started with god making it, but c'mon the bible contains so much in it that wouldn't even fit in a high fantasy book. Adam lived 930 years, Salah lived 463 years, and talked to Abraham for 118 years, wtf did they have to talk about?

People will disbelieve in Vampires and Werewolves, but embrace the Bible as unquestionable fact.........

Of course everyone of "faith" has read it in it's entirety, and fully understands it, and yet has not a single question............


Whatever....

Marriage existed before "God", religion existed before "God", life existed before "God".

to quote XTC from their song Dear God, "dear God did you create us after we created you?".

I think that sums up the "truth" of the Bible.


Tim~

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Postby Nad » Nov 12th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

Say what you want about the Bible Timmy, the bottom line is you made a baseless claim that marriage was a "government thing" because you refuse to acknowledge religion, or the fact that there is a creator that made everything you see today.

I called you on it, and rather then accept the fact that your claim on marriage was baseless, you attack my beliefs.

I guess you'd be happy if everyone believed in the big bang theory. That somehow, out of nothing, 2 dust particles collided and started the whirlwind that is the universe. Forget where the dust particles came from to begin with...

If you want to hate on religion, go right ahead. Your hatred for it is so great that it turns the usual rational Timmy into a rambling fool who quickly loses focus on the topic at hand because you're too carried away with bashing religion.
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Postby Timmy » Nov 12th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

No you try to force the Bible on us as a history book and not a book about religion written by the church.

Egyptians were married long before the bible was written, China and Japan both have a long tradition of marriage despite never having the bible, Buddhism doesn't even have ceremonies for marriage as it is a "private" thing. Egyptian marriages were a contract written by the womans father and prospective groom. The poor didn't even have that, it was simply a verbal agreement (since they couldn't afford a scribe). The Greeks and Romans did the same thing, again it wasn't until medieval times that the church got involved in things. It was during the Roman times I believe that the government first got involved in marriage, marriage itself was still a private thing between two parties and the contract was private but there were legal requirements for marriage. Legal requirements upheld by the government (ie:marriage being a government thing before the church ever got involved).

Marriage was a bond between two people, then it became a contract as families used the union to strengthen their families, then the government got involved, and then when Christianity had grown big enough the church got involved.

So yes, I was wrong in that the marriage has always been a government thing, BUT it was a government thing long before it was ever a church thing.

All the information on marriage I've read pre-Roman empire has it as a simple bond, or a contract, no mention of the church, or any form of religious ceremony.

So while the Bible might say yeah we were in on it waaaay back from creation, actual history contradicts it, hell historical religion contradicts it, the fact that there IS historical religion (other than biblical) contradicts it.

I'm not a big fan of the big bang theory, I think it's pretty much just guesswork, like alot of science until it can be tested I give it the same weight I give the Bible.

People want to be part of something, we want to think there is more to life than simple existance, and there is but it's not some omniponent being watching over us waiting to judge us when we die, its simply living life to the fullest extent you can until you die.

Buddhism believes your path in your next life (reincarnation) is decided by how "well" you lived your life this time around. Christianity/Judaism/Catholicism and all thir offshoots believe we go either to heaven or hell. The muslims believe in heaven/hell as well but with a different supreme being. American Indians believe in the wheel of time which is reincarnation again, but I don't think it's affected by your previous life like Buddhism. Scientology believes we were created, or dumped here on earth as a slave race and one day the big evil aliens will be back ( I can't really confirm this other than heresay by ex members as Scientology is VERY closed door). I'm sure I'm overlooking many religions that currently exist, including those labelled cults.

With so many differing beliefs, how can you be so sure yours is right Nad? What if the Koran is right? What if Buddhism is right? or the Indians? Hell what if Scientology is right? (which while allowing for a supreme being that could be God, would completely contradict the Bible). What if none of them are and at death we simply die?

I refuse to believe in something that requires me to reject historical facts and go with "faith" instead.

I would also like to state for the record, I in no way shape or form want to live as long as Methuselah, 969 years if a fraggin long time, and I still have 930 to go! But I'm gonna take it you sarcastically meant I was wise due to age Nad :)

:P

Tim~

the umm Agnostic? guess thats the closest definition of my beliefs.

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Postby Nad » Nov 12th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

Nah, agnostic would mean you believe there is a god, you just chose not to follow him, at least I'm pretty sure thats how it goes.

And I didn't try to force the bible on anyone as a history book, I even left you an out being the cited source on wikipedia, saying that marriage goes back to before recorded history.

I believe what I believe through faith. I understand everyone cannot do that, as it means you have to believe in something without proof. I know whats going to happen in the end, and how things are going to pan out for the world, and I've made my decisions. If you chose not to believe it, then its your choice and you're entitled to it. I won't bash you for making that choice, but I respectfully ask that you give me the same courtesy and not bash my beliefs just because you don't believe in them.

Edit: And the Bible wasn't written by the church. Its is a compilation of many books written by many people starting with Moses, sometime between 3500-2500bc.(As per my beliefs)
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Postby K2 » Nov 13th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

Nad wrote:Nah, agnostic would mean you believe there is a god, you just chose not to follow him, at least I'm pretty sure thats how it goes.


Nope. Being agnostic means that you don't believe in any god, but you're not so close-minded as to say that if given some solid, hard evidence, you'd accept the facts presented to you and say 'Ah well, there ya go. There's the proof. There is a god after all.' Well... that's one type of agnosticism, anyways.

Want the whole list and their subsequent belief structure? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic#T ... gnosticism

You could classify me as either an 'apathetic agnostic' or as an 'agnostic atheism'.

You definition Nad, was just an example of the majority of Christians the world over ;)

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Postby Nad » Nov 13th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

K2 wrote:
You definition Nad, was just an example of the majority of Christians the world over ;)


Wouldn't that just make them a bunch of agnostics, claiming to be Christians? :P
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