MIA: ACLU, Amnesty Intl., UN Human Rights Coucil, etc...

Anything and everything goes here... post away!

Moderators: EatMoreLead, Nad, Suck.

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Jun 30th, 2006 at 2:43 pm

dude... I disagree with alot of what you said, but I think its primarily due to the way you said it and no entirely the meaning.

The one thing I have noticed is that you never see Klinger and Ahmadingyjihad in the same place at the same time... Keyser, what is your take on it?
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
Dylan
Senior Member
Posts: 399
Joined: Apr 3rd, 2005 at 1:54 am

Postby Dylan » Jun 30th, 2006 at 3:03 pm

Campsalot wrote:It is this kind of logic that is scary to me. Camps

THE IRONY THE IRONY!
Your logic is the problem here. She is talking about radical groups who bomb abortion clinics not the government killing doctors. And the idea that America is on top because we have christian morals is absurd. If we truly had Christian morals we would be no where near the world power we are today. Slavery and Child/immigrant labor are not ethical things but they sure helped out our economy in the early days. The very things you are bitching about the liberals doing are things Jesus taught such as helping the "less fortunate" as you call them. I'm not saying liberals are better people but dont be a hypocrite and say "Christianity has gotten us here and giving to the poor is dragging us down."
Servers gone and all of a sudden people have opinions of K2, weird

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Jun 30th, 2006 at 3:09 pm

WWKD?
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
EatMoreLead
Benefactor
Posts: 4406
Joined: Sep 17th, 2002 at 11:59 pm

Postby EatMoreLead » Jun 30th, 2006 at 3:19 pm

Catalyst22 wrote:WWKD?


+200
EatMoreLead aka EML

User avatar
WidowMaker
Benefactor
Posts: 2237
Joined: Sep 15th, 2002 at 7:49 pm

Postby WidowMaker » Jun 30th, 2006 at 3:19 pm

Dylan wrote: The very things you are bitching about the liberals doing are things Jesus taught such as helping the "less fortunate" as you call them. I'm not saying liberals are better people but dont be a hypocrite and say "Christianity has gotten us here and giving to the poor is dragging us down."


Taking from the rich to give to the poor is not helping anyone. Handouts are not the answer. We all saw how well the handouts after Katrina worked out.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for the rest of his life (or however that old saying goes).


-Wid
- The AWP god formerly known as 'WidowMaker' [Retired]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-Game Designer
-Retro Studios - www.retrostudios.com
-If the next Metroid sucks, you will know who to blame.

User avatar
Campsalot
Senior Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Jul 20th, 2003 at 7:17 pm

Postby Campsalot » Jun 30th, 2006 at 3:26 pm

Dylan, you have no idea what you are talking about when you say that "the very think liberals are doing are the things Jesus taught such as helping the less fortunate". I never once said that I disagree with helping the less fortunate. I said that I disagree with a bunch of people MANDATING HOW MUCH I give and to whom/what I give it to. I give a tremendous amount of money to charitable causes above and beyond my mandated taxes. But I don't do it because I am mandated to; I do it because I WANT to. Redistribution of wealth a bedrock principle of socialism (see Canada), not capitalism (see the U.S.).

Camps

User avatar
tXa
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: Nov 11th, 2002 at 10:45 am

Postby tXa » Jun 30th, 2006 at 4:06 pm

WidowMaker wrote:I guess we should all just ignore that whole "Geneva" thing. -Wid



We most definitely should ignore the Geneva Convention; we should do away with it entirely. Our enemies do not recognize or abide by it, nor should we. It is a worthless document and puts us at a serious disadvantage.

While we're at it, let us abolish the U.N. which is also worthless and is actually the enemy of the United States.
Support The Troops!

User avatar
Dylan
Senior Member
Posts: 399
Joined: Apr 3rd, 2005 at 1:54 am

Postby Dylan » Jun 30th, 2006 at 4:13 pm

Campsalot wrote:Dylan, you have no idea what you are talking about when you say that "the very think liberals are doing are the things Jesus taught such as helping the less fortunate". I never once said that I disagree with helping the less fortunate. I said that I disagree with a bunch of people MANDATING HOW MUCH I give and to whom/what I give it to. I give a tremendous amount of money to charitable causes above and beyond my mandated taxes. But I don't do it because I am mandated to; I do it because I WANT to. Redistribution of wealth a bedrock principle of socialism (see Canada), not capitalism (see the U.S.).

Camps

Welfare is not my argurment. I havent been for it since I worked at a convenience store in High School and the people in Section 8 housing across the street would buy nothing but bags of flaming hots with their link cards/foodstamps (its not racist if its true). My arguement is: though I try to live my life similairly to Christian ethics I dont believe we have become a powerful country by following them.
Servers gone and all of a sudden people have opinions of K2, weird

User avatar
Jennthrotull
K2's better half
Posts: 135
Joined: Jan 25th, 2006 at 12:43 am

Postby Jennthrotull » Jun 30th, 2006 at 4:28 pm

Um..explain to me how the person who flips the switch or gives the lethal injection to end another human life is any better in the moral sense than the murderer? Because they were told to do it? Because it is their job? How about the Mafia (which in some states and countries may as well be the government) - if a hit man is told to kill someone and he does it, is he just doing his job? As a person with an extensive religious background (including teaching the next generation of good little Catholics), I am aware of the "eye for an eye" principal...but that does not translate to the justice system we have in place now. If a family member of the victim executed a convicted murderer, then maybe...but a jury and judge and executioner just perpetuate the chain of deaths. I firmly believe that in the end, any judgement made will be on your actions, and the positive influence you had on other people's lives - not whether you blindly go along with the morals or legal directives set forth by others.

And incidently - the "eye for an eye" principal refers to some sort of restitution that makes a situation right - not necessarily doing the same thing back. Two wrongs do not make a right.

This country was founded on the principal that you are free to follow your own (reasonable) beliefs and culture without government specifically legislating or interfering. I will not force you to get an abortion, or marry someone of the same sex, or serve on a death penalty jury, or become a confirmed Catholic...and in return I believe it is reasonable to expect that you will not stick your nose into my personal business and choices that do not in any way, shape, or form affect you. If I were pregnant and chose to abort a baby, it would not affect anyone other than myself and the father. Pretending that it is anyone else's business or "godly directive" to get involved is utter hogwash.

User avatar
EatMoreLead
Benefactor
Posts: 4406
Joined: Sep 17th, 2002 at 11:59 pm

Postby EatMoreLead » Jun 30th, 2006 at 4:32 pm

but 3 lefts do. :)
EatMoreLead aka EML

User avatar
Jennthrotull
K2's better half
Posts: 135
Joined: Jan 25th, 2006 at 12:43 am

Postby Jennthrotull » Jun 30th, 2006 at 4:36 pm

EatMoreLead wrote:but 3 lefts do. :)


Depends on how hard the lefts are...

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Jun 30th, 2006 at 4:51 pm

If a person chooses to kill their own children it isn't anyones buisness but the parents. It doesn't hurt anyone but the husband and wife involved.

Image
Set Andrea Yates free!

That is the reason this has to be legislated unless you believe that it DOES affect others and the baby is the "other". Many Americans believe that the baby has rights and many others believe differently, so we as a democratic society write legislation and after heavy debate and discussions with constituents.
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
WidowMaker
Benefactor
Posts: 2237
Joined: Sep 15th, 2002 at 7:49 pm

Postby WidowMaker » Jun 30th, 2006 at 4:54 pm

Jennthrotull wrote:If I were pregnant and chose to abort a baby, it would not affect anyone other than myself and the father.



And the baby.


-Wid
- The AWP god formerly known as 'WidowMaker' [Retired]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

-Game Designer

-Retro Studios - www.retrostudios.com

-If the next Metroid sucks, you will know who to blame.

User avatar
WidowMaker
Benefactor
Posts: 2237
Joined: Sep 15th, 2002 at 7:49 pm

Postby WidowMaker » Jun 30th, 2006 at 5:42 pm

Image


-Wid
- The AWP god formerly known as 'WidowMaker' [Retired]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

-Game Designer

-Retro Studios - www.retrostudios.com

-If the next Metroid sucks, you will know who to blame.

User avatar
Deleted User
*poof*
Posts: 7507
Joined: Jul 13th, 2006 at 3:41 am

Postby Deleted User » Jun 30th, 2006 at 5:50 pm

This is what most of you sound like, "oh noes, those dirty poor people are taking my money from me and do nothing with it. Waahhh. I would've done something much better with it, like give it to my children." :roll:

I know you guys are all sensationalistic about welfare and foodstamps and such, but you all can go fuck yourselves. When I was in high school, my mom was in a car accident and couldn't work for over two months. When she was able to go back to work, her employer found a legal loophole that allowed them to fire her even though she was on medical leave. And they didn't have to pay her unemployment, either. So while she was trying to support two children with no job, she had to apply for welfare. And welfare isn't shit. It's barely enough to live, and certainly isn't enough to support children on. My mother had to spend every single dime she had saved just to keep food on the table for us. And when she finally got a job, we lost all welfare benefits and were almost worse off.
So you can gripe about the people who abuse the system all you want, but do it in private because you don't have a fucking clue what it's like to need welfare just to eat.
Most of you are so out of touch with the real world, and what it means to be alive. You hoard your material possessions and scoff at anyone who doesn't have as much as you. A fair chunk of you guys makes for the biggest collection whiny bitches I've ever had the misfortune to talk to. And you think you stand on a moral highground? That's a laugh.
You're all so knee deep in the shit you spew out of your mouths. Grab a shovel, or choke on it.
I've been deleted!!

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Jun 30th, 2006 at 6:24 pm

Yes, some abuse, some don't. The fact is that there are huge money pits that are called "Social Programs" like welfare, Community Action Project, Housing Development, etc. They spend about %50 or greater of their proceeds/donations on overhead and the rest on helping the poor. These programs are great, but when they are ran poorly, they are a drain on society an inadvertently hurt the economy.

check these out:
www.charitynavigator.org
www.charitywatch.org

Ohio spent $192 million administering the program. The program provides $573 million of benefits. That is a high cost per dollar delivered. It's about 25 percent overhead cost.


Read this: http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/411119 ... uide_2.pdf

The typical American business has less than 17% overhead cost with the low being below 10%.

I worked in a nonprofit for two years, and they are a fucking joke. You think that those with money should fund these programs because your mother was barely able to survive under it? You are pissed at those of us who think the system is fucked and needs to be fixed. I think that we should help the less fortunate, but I believe that the govt is the 2nd worst source for the job with the worst being privately held nonprofits funded by the govt like Community Action Projects.

Altho I believe that the support they provide is valuable, its not worth the cost. The down side is that Americans would NOT help others in significant amounts if they stoped funding fed. based social programs like welfare. However, the system is fucked and needs to be fixed. I can't blame people for wanting to keep their moeny out of a system that helps very little and very few and is abused by many.

Unemployment is not enough to survive on, I know. I tried while looking for another job.

I have no solution for the problem, but you can't condemn those that hate throwing money away into a wasteful social program that has not proven successful in many sistuations at pulling the poor and destitute out of the gutter.
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
sohpriest
Senior Member
Posts: 718
Joined: Oct 15th, 2005 at 8:26 pm

Postby sohpriest » Jun 30th, 2006 at 7:41 pm

you can't pull a patient who is 103 and dieing off of a vent in most states without a court order. I could give you the exact number but will not waste my time looking it up because those who don't want to believe them will just say they are wrong anyway. Now this could be a person who has been comatose for 30 years and have no hope to recover. But many law makers are trying to keep late trimester abortions legal. Most infants born during this period of time could live on there own with little help from doctors. In my mind you can't have it both ways. Some states will not let doctors allow acephalic (brain stem only) baby's die peacefully. You put in feeding tubes and keep them alive with no hope of any life. Now flame away I don't care. Thing is though you can't have it both ways.
"I am Jack's smirking revenge."

User avatar
sohpriest
Senior Member
Posts: 718
Joined: Oct 15th, 2005 at 8:26 pm

Postby sohpriest » Jun 30th, 2006 at 7:54 pm

Benedict wrote:This is what most of you sound like, "oh noes, those dirty poor people are taking my money from me and do nothing with it. Waahhh. I would've done something much better with it, like give it to my children." :roll:

I know you guys are all sensationalistic about welfare and foodstamps and such, but you all can go fuck yourselves. When I was in high school, my mom was in a car accident and couldn't work for over two months. When she was able to go back to work, her employer found a legal loophole that allowed them to fire her even though she was on medical leave. And they didn't have to pay her unemployment, either. So while she was trying to support two children with no job, she had to apply for welfare. And welfare isn't shit. It's barely enough to live, and certainly isn't enough to support children on. My mother had to spend every single dime she had saved just to keep food on the table for us. And when she finally got a job, we lost all welfare benefits and were almost worse off.
So you can gripe about the people who abuse the system all you want, but do it in private because you don't have a fucking clue what it's like to need welfare just to eat.
Most of you are so out of touch with the real world, and what it means to be alive. You hoard your material possessions and scoff at anyone who doesn't have as much as you. A fair chunk of you guys makes for the biggest collection whiny bitches I've ever had the misfortune to talk to. And you think you stand on a moral highground? That's a laugh.
You're all so knee deep in the shit you spew out of your mouths. Grab a shovel, or choke on it.


Yeah I was poor too. My Mom worked at a chicken plant for little more than minimum wage. That didn't make me pissed at system and those with more than me though. Made me want to do more with what I did have though. Made me want to get a good job quick. I went through RN school in 2 years and started as anight charge nurse at 20. Problem is with most they just want to bitch about the system and not make with what they have. Oh and there would have been surviving on our savings because at what my mom made there was no saving.
"I am Jack's smirking revenge."

User avatar
WidowMaker
Benefactor
Posts: 2237
Joined: Sep 15th, 2002 at 7:49 pm

Postby WidowMaker » Jun 30th, 2006 at 8:12 pm

Benedict wrote:This is what most of you sound like, "oh noes, those dirty poor people are taking my money from me and do nothing with it. Waahhh. I would've done something much better with it, like give it to my children." :roll:

I know you guys are all sensationalistic about welfare and foodstamps and such, but you all can go fuck yourselves. When I was in high school, my mom was in a car accident and couldn't work for over two months. When she was able to go back to work, her employer found a legal loophole that allowed them to fire her even though she was on medical leave. And they didn't have to pay her unemployment, either. So while she was trying to support two children with no job, she had to apply for welfare. And welfare isn't shit. It's barely enough to live, and certainly isn't enough to support children on. My mother had to spend every single dime she had saved just to keep food on the table for us. And when she finally got a job, we lost all welfare benefits and were almost worse off.
So you can gripe about the people who abuse the system all you want, but do it in private because you don't have a fucking clue what it's like to need welfare just to eat.
Most of you are so out of touch with the real world, and what it means to be alive. You hoard your material possessions and scoff at anyone who doesn't have as much as you. A fair chunk of you guys makes for the biggest collection whiny bitches I've ever had the misfortune to talk to. And you think you stand on a moral highground? That's a laugh.
You're all so knee deep in the shit you spew out of your mouths. Grab a shovel, or choke on it.


I will not apologize for not wanting the money I work hard for being taken away from me and my family.

And you can shove your 'woe is me' story somewhere the sun doesn't shine. You think you are the only one who had hard times growing up? There were plenty of years, YEARS, not months, where my parents were having to work 2 low-paying jobs to barely afford to put a roof over our head and food on the table. I know what it is to struggle financially. I experienced it for alot of my childhood. Through diligence and hard work, my parents were eventually able to rise above and now enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. This country has PLENTY of programs to help people make it,and improve their life. The problem is it isn't easy, and most people don't want to put in the years of hard work and effort it takes to do it. For those people, I find it hard to feel any pity.

Myself, I do not have a college degree. I got into this industry by working my ass off for hours a day to try to improve my craft good enough to land a job. After 4 years of diligent effort, I finally landed that first job, and have never looked back.


-Wid
- The AWP god formerly known as 'WidowMaker' [Retired]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

-Game Designer

-Retro Studios - www.retrostudios.com

-If the next Metroid sucks, you will know who to blame.

User avatar
Deleted User
*poof*
Posts: 7507
Joined: Jul 13th, 2006 at 3:41 am

Postby Deleted User » Jun 30th, 2006 at 8:24 pm

sohpriest wrote:Yeah I was poor too. My Mom worked at a chicken plant for little more than minimum wage. That didn't make me pissed at system and those with more than me though. Made me want to do more with what I did have though. Made me want to get a good job quick. I went through RN school in 2 years and started as anight charge nurse at 20. Problem is with most they just want to bitch about the system and not make with what they have. Oh and there would have been surviving on our savings because at what my mom made there was no saving.


I'm not pissed at the system because of that at all. It helped us a lot. And I'm not pissed because someone had more than me. But if anyone tries to say that these programs are worthless and only serve to keep people poor, then those people need to seriously pull their head out of their own asses and realize that they are only listening to what they want to hear to further their own goals.
I know that there is a lot of things that could improve, but the ideas that some of you have about the "evil liberals" trying to take your money away are just preposterous. You think liberal politicians don't have money? You think they're not giving some of their money away, too? If your precious conservatives were so Christian, they'd be leading these programs properly, instead of using it as a scapegoat to spread their agenda.

And yes Cat, I can certainly condemn those who don't know what it's like firsthand who think they are hurting people by helping them get back on their feet.

All I'm getting at is that everyone should see both sides before they criticize. It's not really that hard to do, as long as you stop clinging to your predetermined ideals and open your eyes. Even after needing foodstamps to help us get along, I used to criticize people who would manipulate the program for their own good. But then I realized that most of those people aren't just poor financially. They are also poor intellectually, and they aren't really manipulating anything on purpose. They just don't know any better.
I grew up making friends with homeless people and rich kids alike. And I used to hear the homeless gripe about the rich, and the rich gripe about the homeless. And I spent a better portion of my high school years trying to show each of them the error of their ways. Most of those homeless kids worked their way out of the gutter. Some didn't, and ended up in jail or dead. But guess what happened to the rich kids? Every one of them is still coasting through life, because they were given more than they deserved.
There are people who intentionally manipulate the system, no doubt. And if there was a way to single those people out and cut them off, I'd fully support that. Those people are worse than thieves, imo.

And Wid, your parents were at least able to work. My mother had to work several jobs for several years, too. During high school, the only times I saw my mother was when she gave me a ride to school in the morning. The rest of the time I was on my own.
I've been deleted!!

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Jun 30th, 2006 at 8:31 pm

*edit removed personal story as it made me feel pathetic*

You think liberal politicians don't have money? You think they're not giving some of their money away, too?

Why do they do it if they are having to give away some of their moeny too? Is it because they care about the people or because they want to stay in office? I'm sure its a little of both for some and one or the other for others. I don't think that given the opportunity anyone even a Democrat would dump any of their income into a social program that squanders it. Its just common sense. So why do they do it? Because the social programs like Community Action Agencies spend huge chunks of their money paying lobbyinsts to guarantee them fed/state grants. Its a horrible cycle that can't be broken.


If your precious conservatives were so Christian, they'd be leading these programs properly, instead of using it as a scapegoat to spread their agenda.


The conservatives want to do away with these programs and replace them with religious institutions operated by local churches that are in tune with the local communities. It was big news for a while, but it isn't going to happen. The 501c3 lobby is too strong and the amazing thing is that its funded by the state/fed govt! Like a politician voting themselves raises. Its ludicrous.

National Community Action Foundation does not include its subsidiaries' expenses in its self-filed report, so all expenditures are summed for Total Lobbying Expenditures


Do you think this privately owned fed/state funded group is spending less in lobying now that we have a Republican congress? NO! They are cooking the books hence the disclaimer above.

Stats found here:
http://www.opensecrets.org/lobbyists/cl ... &year=2005
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
EatMoreLead
Benefactor
Posts: 4406
Joined: Sep 17th, 2002 at 11:59 pm

Postby EatMoreLead » Jun 30th, 2006 at 10:30 pm

Benedict wrote:...

When I was in high school, my mom was in a car accident and couldn't work for over two months. When she was able to go back to work, her employer found a legal loophole that allowed them to fire her even though she was on medical leave. And they didn't have to pay her unemployment, either. So while she was trying to support two children with no job, she had to apply for welfare. And welfare isn't shit. It's barely enough to live, and certainly isn't enough to support children on. My mother had to spend every single dime she had saved just to keep food on the table for us. And when she finally got a job, we lost all welfare benefits and were almost worse off...


Just curious - and I fully realize this is a minefield, but where was your Dad through all this? If he died when you were young, I apologize in advance. If he beat your mom, seems like she made a bad choice in who to breed with. If they just split, that is a whole new discussion, and perhaps if people didn't change spouses like underwear in this country we wouldn't have so many single-parent families and all the f'ed up kids that often result from no father figure. Yeah, I'm over-generalizing.

If ol Uncle Sammy had not taken care of you (you seem a bit ungrateful of my tax dollars feeding you btw), do you really think you would have starved to death? I mean, that is a tad overdramatic you whiny lil biatch. Private charities run a lot of really good food banks and shelters, and before you think you are the only person on in the USA who has ever had it tough, I've been in a situation where I used a church food bank. Just so happens we give a lot of our income to support local and global missions, so I know "both sides" despite the fact that you seem to think only you have such obscure knowledge.

You know what I'm sick of? Fing bleeding heart democrats who think a socialistic "big govt will take care of you cradle to grave" agenda is the solution. Free Enterprise is what has gotten the world to our highly advanced level of farming, manufacturing, medical and technology. Government welfare is wrought with fraud and waste, and it de-motivates the majority of those who use it. My mom is on long-term disability and although I love her, she has no real need to be wasting our tax dollars, she is perfectly capable of working - but the system makes her lazy and a "victim".

What we need is no government sponsored Robin Hood. Before the income tax, families, communities and churches took care of those less fortunate or in special/temporary need. Wean ourselves off the damn pork fat, and private charity will pick up the real need.
EatMoreLead aka EML

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Jul 1st, 2006 at 12:02 am

Before the income tax, families, communities and churches took care of those less fortunate or in special/temporary need.


LOL, I so wrote that in my post then deleted it out because I knew it would be a time bomb. You are a braver (or more tolerant) man than I :)
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests