....

Anything and everything goes here... post away!

Moderators: EatMoreLead, Nad, Suck.

User avatar
sX
Elite Member
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sep 14th, 2002 at 6:11 pm

....

Postby sX » Apr 8th, 2005 at 9:30 am

(o )^( o) Tetas.

User avatar
Mouser
Elite Member
Posts: 1633
Joined: Dec 12th, 2004 at 8:34 pm

Postby Mouser » Apr 8th, 2005 at 11:09 am

What part of ILLEGAL alien has everyone forgotten to understand?

User avatar
WidowMaker
Benefactor
Posts: 2237
Joined: Sep 15th, 2002 at 7:49 pm

Postby WidowMaker » Apr 8th, 2005 at 11:16 am

Hey, if the liberals have their way there will be no such thing - anyone who manages to sneak across the border illegally will automatically have full US citizenship and all the rights accordingly.

GD hippies!

-Wid
- The AWP god formerly known as 'WidowMaker' [Retired]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-Game Designer
-Retro Studios - www.retrostudios.com
-If the next Metroid sucks, you will know who to blame.

User avatar
ParaManiac
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: Dec 30th, 2004 at 8:01 am

Postby ParaManiac » Apr 8th, 2005 at 11:17 am

How is that all that different from Bush's plan?

User avatar
Campsalot
Senior Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Jul 20th, 2003 at 7:17 pm

Postby Campsalot » Apr 8th, 2005 at 11:45 am

Difference...

Liberals have the plan

Bush fails to fight it and instead goes along with the plan in some aspects

Yes, I am disappointed in his approach to addressing the illegal immigrant situation we face.

User avatar
Burzum
Benefactor
Posts: 4291
Joined: Oct 21st, 2004 at 1:05 pm

Postby Burzum » Apr 8th, 2005 at 11:57 am

Can we say "mine field?"
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

User avatar
LeoPawnz
seiko pawn
Posts: 680
Joined: Feb 7th, 2005 at 10:03 pm

Postby LeoPawnz » Apr 8th, 2005 at 12:52 pm

lol burz that would work
not your average pawn...
Image

WoW - Sour - 60 Undead Warrior - Hellscream (rest in peace)
BFBC2 - AndoRando (level 50 F2000 specialist)
OH HECKYNAW!!!

User avatar
Phoenix
Elite Member
Posts: 1980
Joined: Nov 24th, 2004 at 3:13 pm

Postby Phoenix » Apr 8th, 2005 at 12:55 pm

You all bitch and moan about illegal immigrants but trust me you want them here. If they were not here the cost of living would go up so much because the cost of costruction and other low evel jobs would go up so much. We don't need to make it harder to come to this country, we need to make it easier so its not as hard to leagaly get here.
Former HF clan member, server admin, all around troll

"You don't do things right once-in-a-while. You do them right all the time."- Vince Lombardi

User avatar
Campsalot
Senior Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Jul 20th, 2003 at 7:17 pm

Postby Campsalot » Apr 8th, 2005 at 1:05 pm

Phoenix wrote:You all bitch and moan about illegal immigrants but trust me you want them here. If they were not here the cost of living would go up so much because the cost of costruction and other low evel jobs would go up so much. We don't need to make it harder to come to this country, we need to make it easier so its not as hard to leagaly get here.


nice take.. unfortunately, you have no idea what you are saying. Yes, the illegal immigrants take jobs that many Americans wouldn't take for the pay that is offered, but the leeching of services imposed on society by the illegals is equally as bad, if not worse. To say that we should "want" illegal immigrants here is absurd. And what do you mean by we need to "make is easier so it is not as hard to legally get here"? That doesn't really make sense.

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Apr 8th, 2005 at 1:26 pm

You all bitch and moan about illegal immigrants but trust me you want them here. If they were not here the cost of living would go up so much because the cost of costruction and other low evel jobs would go up so much. We don't need to make it harder to come to this country, we need to make it easier so its not as hard to leagaly get here.


I completely disagree.
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
Burzum
Benefactor
Posts: 4291
Joined: Oct 21st, 2004 at 1:05 pm

Postby Burzum » Apr 8th, 2005 at 2:02 pm

Catalyst22 wrote:
You all bitch and moan about illegal immigrants but trust me you want them here. If they were not here the cost of living would go up so much because the cost of costruction and other low evel jobs would go up so much. We don't need to make it harder to come to this country, we need to make it easier so its not as hard to leagaly get here.


I completely disagree.


Me too
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

User avatar
Nad
Moderator
Posts: 2481
Joined: Sep 15th, 2002 at 8:15 am

Postby Nad » Apr 8th, 2005 at 2:12 pm

Burzum wrote:
Catalyst22 wrote:
You all bitch and moan about illegal immigrants but trust me you want them here. If they were not here the cost of living would go up so much because the cost of costruction and other low evel jobs would go up so much. We don't need to make it harder to come to this country, we need to make it easier so its not as hard to leagaly get here.


I completely disagree.


Me too



what the hell, me three.
Hardfought Forum/Game Server Admin and all around board troll
Image

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Apr 8th, 2005 at 2:22 pm

Nad wrote:
Burzum wrote:
Catalyst22 wrote:
You all bitch and moan about illegal immigrants but trust me you want them here. If they were not here the cost of living would go up so much because the cost of costruction and other low evel jobs would go up so much. We don't need to make it harder to come to this country, we need to make it easier so its not as hard to leagaly get here.


I completely disagree.


Me too



what the hell, me three.


Have I dsagreed yet?
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
rekloose-[PUPPY]
Elite Member
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sep 14th, 2002 at 11:38 pm

Postby rekloose-[PUPPY] » Apr 8th, 2005 at 2:26 pm

I'm kinda torn. On one hand, they shouldn't be here - on the other, they do menial tasks that Americans won't do. They also pay tax and add money to Social Security - without being able to reap the benefits.

But Phoenix is correct. Where else would a strawberry farmer be able to hire workers for $3/day? Name me one American who would work in a field for $3/day in squalid conditions with no healthcare, workers comp, unemployment benefits, etc ... no one would

And when Farm John Q has to fir Pancho (who was making $3/$5 day) and hire American workers to pick his fields at a cost of $6/hour (costing him maybe $60 per day per worker) - not to mention he'll have to worry about a slew of other things (such as lawsuits from poor conditions, helath insurance, etc) ... guess who's going to end up paying premium?

That's right, you and me. And when the price of domestic crops EXPLODES because of the associated costs with having to hire Ameircan migrant workers - guess where we're going to start getting our produce/fruits from? That's right .. another country.

kicking out/restricting illegals is a lose/lose situation.

But Cat, Camps, etc .. instead of debating the points I've made, why don't you offer up a valid alternative that would allow us to kick the illegals out, keep the prices of domestic fruit/produce/construction/any other menial good/serice provided by an illegal, and keep the social security money coming?

Because unless you can come up with an alternative, I suggest you take a nice, warm cup of shut-the-fuck-up and enjoy your cheap American goods/services.

-PUPPY

User avatar
Suck.
Benefactor
Posts: 3146
Joined: Nov 13th, 2004 at 8:36 pm

Postby Suck. » Apr 8th, 2005 at 2:32 pm

Well said PUPPY.


-Grant

User avatar
Campsalot
Senior Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Jul 20th, 2003 at 7:17 pm

Postby Campsalot » Apr 8th, 2005 at 2:55 pm

Pups.. I love how you can offer an opinion then take the agressive "shut-the-f-up" approach to the opposition like your perspective is the only correct one.

Firstly, MOST illegals DO NOT pay taxes and MOST DO get free healthcare, schooling for their children. Billions of dollars of the money they make goes back to their native country to support family that is not in the US. I think it is a bit presumptuous to assume that farmers pay their crews sub-minimum wage. If that was the case, the government would be all over them, as they are subsidized by government funds with strict guidelines. Many illegals get paid cash-in-hand for "contract" style jobs (i.e. day laborers) and I can almost 100% assure you that money never gets taxed and, therefore, never goes into social security. The approach that is needed to address the illegal immigrant situation in this country is multi-faceted. I'm not going to begin to say I know enough about all aspects to offer a full program solution, but here are some things that we can do to start:

1) Close the borders down with a strict no tolerance and deportation policy for illegals.
2) Do not allow children of illegal immigrants to register for public school
3) Refuse or severely restrict social and medical services for illegals

Now to address the price issue:

1) Cut back on government services and programs that are not needed and implement more stringent guidelines and oversight of government spending. This will save a tremendous amount of money (more than $20 billion of the previous fiscal budget is unaccounted for, just for starters).

2) Cut back on ad valorem taxation where it is overtaxed (in Texas, for example) and expand the sales and franchise taxes. This will allow current budgets to function and expand the tax burden across a much wider segment of the population.

3) Expand the immigration assitance programs to allow people to LEGALLY immigrate more easily. This does not mean dropping our guard. A phased approach to immigration could allow a person to be issued an H1B visa or the like to begin working, within a relatively small amount of time (at least shorter than it currently is).

This is just for starters. Go ahead pups, shoot holes all through it. At least it is a start.

Camps

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Apr 8th, 2005 at 3:39 pm

But Phoenix is correct. Where else would a strawberry farmer be able to hire workers for $3/day? Name me one American who would work in a field for $3/day in squalid conditions with no healthcare, workers comp, unemployment benefits, etc ... no one would

And when Farm John Q has to fir Pancho (who was making $3/$5 day) and hire American workers to pick his fields at a cost of $6/hour (costing him maybe $60 per day per worker) - not to mention he'll have to worry about a slew of other things (such as lawsuits from poor conditions, helath insurance, etc) ... guess who's going to end up paying premium?


For that matter... lets go back to slavery... dumbass
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
Best_predator
Banished to Siberia
Posts: 2786
Joined: Dec 21st, 2004 at 5:40 pm

Postby Best_predator » Apr 8th, 2005 at 4:04 pm

Cat dont throw names plz, that takes away from ur image and turns a argument totally different direction.
You can't kick out all illegal immigrants out of US, and no one is going to do period. If u going to ease immigration too much, likely nothing will change except that now "Panchos" are going to ask for 7 bucks instead of 3 an hour, because now they are legal. Im not sure about health care but... how are they going to get it free? (no pun i just really dont understand). Taxes, heh, yes they prolly dont pay them.
IMHO illegals became too big of a part in american system, and even if there are ways to change the system it will be one big risk to take and it will take forever to implement without applying brutal force. With US dept i dont think it can stand an economic crash of some kind.

User avatar
Burzum
Benefactor
Posts: 4291
Joined: Oct 21st, 2004 at 1:05 pm

Postby Burzum » Apr 8th, 2005 at 4:05 pm

This time the white people have to be the slaves.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

User avatar
Campsalot
Senior Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Jul 20th, 2003 at 7:17 pm

Postby Campsalot » Apr 8th, 2005 at 4:28 pm

Best_predator wrote:Im not sure about health care but... how are they going to get it free? (no pun i just really dont understand)


To answer your question, this primarily comes in the form of emergency services and non-elective healthcare services. Emergency rooms become doctor's offices because illegals come in for issues like colds to get medication. They do not pay for said services, on average, which makes the services free. I know this because my company operates in the healthcare industry (we own a hospital), I've seen the statistics, and talked to the administrators. On average, a hospital (at least in our state) has a 24% fee recovery rate. That is one reason why hospital services are so outrageous. I know illegals are not the only people that exploit services like that, but they represent a large segment of the populous that does.

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Apr 8th, 2005 at 4:29 pm

Cost to California,

The report, written by the Federation of American Immigration Reform, or FAIR, states that even if the tax contributions of illegal aliens are subtracted, state government outlays still amount to nearly $9 billion a year.

The $10.5 billion figure translates into a burden to native-born residents of $1,183 per household.

Based on estimates of the illegal alien population in California and documented costs of K-12 schooling, Californians spend approximately $7.7 billion annually on education for illegal-alien children and for their U.S.-born siblings, says the report. Nearly 15 percent of the K-12 public school students in California are children of illegals.

The report shows uncompensated medical outlays for health care provided to the state's illegal alien population amount to about $1.4 billion a year.

The cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in California's prisons and jails amounts to about $1.4 billion a year. That figure does not include related law enforcement and judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes that led to their incarceration, the report notes.

FAIR says the total of taxes paid into the system by illegal aliens can be estimated at about $1.6 billion per year.

States the report's executive summary: "The fiscal costs of illegal immigration do not end with these three major cost areas. The total costs of illegal immigration to the state's taxpayers would be considerably higher if other cost areas such as special English instruction, school feeding programs or welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal alien workers were added into the equation."



Cost to Arizona,

http://www.usoregonobserver.com/topstor ... _alien.php

Cost to Texas,

Texas spends more than $4 billion a year to provide K-12 education for
the children of illegal aliens.

These children account for nearly 12 percent of the total K-12 school
population.

Taxpayer-funded medical outlays for health care provided to the state's
illegal alien population amount to about $520 million a year.

The uncompensated cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in Texas's state
and county prisons amounts to at least $150 million a year.

Cost to Oklahoma,

46,000 illegal aliens resided in Oklahoma as of 2000, according to INS figures. This is 120 percent higher than the previous INS estimate in 1996 and 188 percent higher than the estimate for 1990.16

Oklahoma authorities requested compensation of $3.55 million from the federal government in FY’99 for the incarceration of illegal aliens in state and local jails and prisons (under the federal State Criminal Alien Assistance Program, or SCAAP), but it received only $1.37 million in compensation, leaving $2.18 in uncompensated costs to be borne by Oklahoma taxpayers.


Based off of these numbers it is costing us roughly $20 per year for each American to allow illegal imigrants into the US.

How much would it cost to stop it? Who knows. I have not looked to see how many border patrol agents there are. But if you run the numbers you can figure that we could afford to pay $28,000 per year to each border patrol agent and have a grand total of 50,000 agents along our borders.
-----
There are aproximately *3 million (Mexico’s National Council of Populations, Sept. 2001) undocumented mexicans in the US

3m employee wage swap

Minimum wage is $8.15 ($2 added for health care taxes etc) annual wages $24,450,000
Avg Min wage of Mexicans $3 (just guessing a rough number) $9,000,000 annual wages
According to a NASSCOM-Hewitt Associates survey, the average salary of a call center worker in India is $180 a month. This is five times the country’s per capita income. For a fresh college graduate, a call center job pays about 2.5 times as much as other job openings.

In India, more than 99% of all call center workers are college graduates. In the U.S., there are no minimum education qualification requirements to work in a call center.

These same people can not get U.S. citizenship. The same is true of Poland... If they were on our borders would be feel differntly? I say we allow them to fill the low wage positions for 5 years then they can becom citizens of the U.S. and take any position they want. Your a recent college graduate in India. You want a better life for yourself and your children. The sacrifice would be more than worth it, and you earn your citizenship.

You think it is ok to allow illegal imigrants as long as they take low wage jobs and don't attempt to compete for your job? That is not the America that I am a citizen of. Fair competition, educated immigrants, and a fair program to allow them to come to the U.S. I do not think the way Mexican migrants are treated and payed is fair nor ethical. But then again, they aren't after my job right so what should I care?

Good luck moving to Euorope without first having a job lined up, then don't even bother becoming a citizen unless you marry one. European countries at least have the luxury of having illegal imigrants with a high degree of education.

If our economy can not support itself without slave labor then it deserves to collapse. Honestly tho... I'm all for it... I also think the govt should have subsidized Apple computers even tho they refused to modernize to an open architecture. The U.S. will adapt.
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
Deleted User
*poof*
Posts: 7507
Joined: Jul 13th, 2006 at 3:41 am

Postby Deleted User » Apr 8th, 2005 at 4:30 pm

*ahem*

Suck, I'm waiting for a pic.
I've been deleted!!

User avatar
Campsalot
Senior Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Jul 20th, 2003 at 7:17 pm

Postby Campsalot » Apr 8th, 2005 at 4:38 pm

Great post Cat. Actually the number of illegals in the country is closer to 10 million.

User avatar
Catalyst22
Elite Member
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sep 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm

Postby Catalyst22 » Apr 8th, 2005 at 4:42 pm

I found numerous sites with numbers listed. I went with the conservative 3mil as I fealt this gave more of an advantage to the opposing side of the debate. The costs associated typically are only for 3 categories: Prison, Health, and Taxes. A few of the numbers left off are: Property/criminal costs/legal fees, Disease Transmission and a few dozen more.

What people mean when they say "They ain't after my job, so its ok", or "They only take the low wage jobs" is that I don't mind having the population of the U.S. filled with uneducated migrant workers as long as they stay on the farm. I find that offensive and also untrue.

Also, I found that there were 3mil undocumented imigrants and 10mil illegal. All from Mexico. I didn't bother to read what the difference was, just chose the lesser number. I did read that about 250,000 more come into the U.S. each year :(
“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.â€

User avatar
Suck.
Benefactor
Posts: 3146
Joined: Nov 13th, 2004 at 8:36 pm

Postby Suck. » Apr 8th, 2005 at 4:48 pm

Image


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests