00:00 <@cpittman> That's not a bad idea, dude. 00:04 <@cpittman> I have a pretty short-term memory sometimes. I ran into a general store and they wouldn't let me in because I'm invisible. So I went through my bag of holding to check for mummy wrapping. No mummy wrapping, but I realize I'm wearing a ring of invisibility 00:05 <@cpittman> Still won't let me in, then I remembered I put the ring on so I could eat a stalker to become invisible 00:05 you don't realize how inconvenient it is until you try to take a shower with one hand because your other hand has a bandage or whatever 00:06 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) had Reaper bestowed upon him by His Holiness, on T:2596 (0:21:19) 00:07 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed Gollum, on T:1107 (0:06:13) 00:08 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Goblin King, on T:1238 (0:07:05) 00:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] mobius (Val Dwa Fem Law) found Mjollnir on the floor, on T:5366 00:09 k time to get reamed in hackem 00:10 <@cpittman> I haven't had to switch hands before, but did break an ankle once and had to figure out how to get in and out of the shower with one leg. Then broke an elbow but it was my off-arm so it was fine leaving that one wrapped up in a trash bag, but it was probably very funny seeing me trying to shower with half my limbs wrapped up. 00:10 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) killed Master Kaen, on T:31313 00:10 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) found the Eyes of the Overworld carried by a monster, on T:31313 00:10 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:31314 00:11 ouch 00:13 [hdf-us] [nh370] mobius (Val Dwa Fem Law) entered Sokoban, on T:5454 00:17 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) genocided class N, on T:32005 00:17 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) genocided class U, on T:32006 00:18 speaking of, should just do soko already and hope for good magical tool 00:19 ideally marker and then I can upgrade sack 00:19 <@cpittman> I usually just do sokoban because I play characters that don't carry a lot of food 00:28 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:32912 00:30 mask shop seems promising 00:31 <@cpittman> Mask shop? 00:34 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:6190 (0:49:45) 00:35 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:35 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 00:37 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) found Magicbane on the floor, on T:33348 00:37 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) found the Eye of the Aethiopica on the floor, on T:33348 00:38 mask shop is pretty epic 00:38 potentially game winning if you get lucky 00:38 cpittman masks are sorta semipermanent polyself 00:39 balucitherium, bearded devil, or gray dragon? 00:40 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) eschewed atheism, by dropping a cubical amulet on an altar, on T:4294 (0:38:27) 00:40 nice finds 00:40 bearded devil is a really strong form 00:40 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) destroyed the invisible inlawBiker's ghost, the former Necromancer, on T:33375 00:40 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) found Fire Brand in a container, on T:33381 00:40 i'm down to 13 hp, will it put me in full hp? 00:40 I'd go for gray dragon personally if I rolled a woman 00:40 Yes, if it's non-cursed 00:41 i assume so since they were shoplifted 00:41 could've saved that first ever game if I'd put on the jabberwock mask I had but I wasn't really playing at 100% anyway 00:41 [hdf-au] [evil] Orcranger (Sam Dwa Fem Law) killed the Goblin King, on T:1625 (0:34:19) 00:41 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Ruggo the Gnome King, on T:6488 (0:54:15) 00:42 i'm a valk so i guess female 00:42 Oh it says if you find something in a container, cool 00:43 Honestly if not for the dragon mask I'd pick bearded devil 00:43 remove body armor first in either case though, p. sure they're still too big for that 00:43 if you wanna be that guy you can lay the eggs and then take it off 00:43 bearded devil is medium size 00:44 also i think with masks since you know what form it is you will take them off automatically? 00:44 for scales? not sure i want to deal with raising pet dragons 00:44 Absolutely not the case shadowrider38 00:44 and why am i debating this like i have a clue about hackem 00:45 * anselmus goes with devil 00:45 okay lol 00:45 Wasted my cloak turning into a fire giant 00:45 also I just like dragon pets and they're probably super good in Hack'EM 00:45 not even thinking about scale harvesting 00:45 (which is for jerks anyway) 00:46 strong words hehe 00:46 you brought up being a woman? 00:46 oh nvm im dumb 00:48 lol 00:48 having a magic-resistant pet that can engulf and presumably scare other monsters sounds damn awesome 00:48 only hangup is it randomly falling asleep 00:50 You feel completely healthy. 00:50 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) had Giantslayer bestowed upon her by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:5075 (0:49:10) 00:51 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 00:51 innate negate ac, nice 00:52 ... invisible n 00:52 It stole an uncursed +3 small shield. 00:52 Yeah Aphrodite's place sucks dogshit unless you have see invis or telepathy 00:52 fuckin' pixies 00:54 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 15257 points, T:5375, killed by a leocrotta 00:54 can you donate me some of that ac 00:54 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54 game wont drop body armor 00:55 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 00:56 did i miss soko 00:57 Possibly? 00:57 didn't see the oracle 00:58 !whereis anselmus 00:58 Umbire: [hdf-us] anselmus [hackm]: (Und Gia Mal Law) T:13158 The Dungeons of Doom level: 21 00:58 Check back about DL 10 or so and double check towards the center of each floor 00:58 huh that's not right 00:59 probably not tbh 00:59 alright watching now 00:59 yay 00:59 so aphrodite's place = oracle 00:59 [hdf-us] [nh370] arthur (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:3195 00:59 Nah 00:59 she's usually below oracle though, if that means anything 01:00 That upstair leads to Town I'm guessing? 01:00 then if i'm on 9 and it's not oracle then it must be above? 01:00 Yeah 01:01 nice, poly 01:01 like I said check towards the center of each floor, easier if you have telepathy or some form of monster detection 01:02 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02 k oracle 8 01:02 oh well there you go 01:02 that upstair was soko then 01:02 oh baby, magic missile spell finally 01:02 quick jaunt up would've confirmed lol 01:02 oh I've had that basically forever 01:02 first non-starting book 01:03 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 01:03 I think you got it from here anselmus 01:03 got my own Soko to attend to 01:03 <@cpittman> anselmus, that's the one benefit to playing with colo. Special staircases look different. 01:03 :) 01:03 also wikifying to do 01:04 -!- mobileuser has joined #hardfought 01:04 there's more than just that but differentiating stairs is a very nice one 01:04 true 01:05 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05 more unknown soko levels so good time for break 01:06 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 01:07 [hdf-us] [nh370] arthur (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:4053 01:07 Hack'EM lists them by name on its article 01:08 I'm also redirecting each name to the appropriate article where I can 01:09 well i'm using them ofc but still kind of a momentum killer 01:09 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) destroyed tinklebear's ghost, the former Esquire, on T:1287 (0:10:15) 01:10 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) completed Sokoban, acquiring a gold amulet of reflection, on T:9636 (1:22:23) 01:10 understandable 01:10 shouldve waited for object detection 01:17 I think I have a spare 01:17 ye 01:18 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 3590 points, T:1755, killed by a bolt of fire 01:18 -!- Chris_ANG has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20 How're you finding giant Undead Slayer btw 01:21 [hdf-us] [nh370] arthur (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a werejackal, on T:5512 01:22 -!- ChrisANG has joined #hardfought 01:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] arthur (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:5938 01:26 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) was sent a magma elemental by His Holiness, on T:11319 (1:38:21) 01:26 bruh 01:27 i got gifted a minion and bro priest stole it immediately 01:28 -!- cathartes has quit [Quit: fly away] 01:29 Stole? 01:29 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:13605 (1:55:18) 01:30 my guy tamed my pet when it attacked him 01:30 i'm playing dwa valk and no idea why it's referring to a char i played several games ago, possibly my first 01:32 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 1421 points, T:1089, killed by a mountain dwarf 01:33 Priests can do that?? 01:34 also if you mean !whereis that's usually broken in some way or another 01:34 so dw about it 01:38 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) became literate by reading a book, on T:12676 (1:51:02) 01:43 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed the Rat King, on T:13366 (1:55:35) 01:45 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) was sent an air elemental by His Holiness, on T:13645 (1:57:46) 01:45 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 01:46 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Colonel Blood, on T:18576 (10:54:47) 01:46 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:18578 (10:54:53) 01:47 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) became His Holiness' Envoy of Balance, on T:13695 (1:59:36) 01:48 [hdf-us] [nh370] Numenorean (Sam Hum Fem Law), 6272 points, T:3781, killed by a gray unicorn 01:51 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) completed his quest without incident, on T:18690 (11:00:20) 01:52 sounds like a parole report 01:58 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) destroyed willisllama's ghost, the former Zombie Lord, on T:15228 (2:10:11) 01:58 [hdf-au] [evil] Orcranger (Sam Dwa Fem Law) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:6454 (1:37:38) 02:00 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:13528 (5:09:38) 02:05 -!- Dingotron2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:07 -!- eggandhull has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:08 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) attained the rank of Enchantress (level 14), on T:39019 02:09 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) killed the Rat King, on T:14378 (5:18:58) 02:10 hi again Plinketto 02:11 naturally something undead wakes the zoo 02:19 [hdf-us] [un] Numenorean (Mon Hum Mal Law) entered Sokoban, on T:2056 (0:27:21) 02:22 [hdf-us] [hackm] Umbire (Wiz Ith Mal Cha), 33243 points, T:16464, poisoned by a locust 02:22 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 02:22 FUCKING FOUR TIMES IN A ROW IT FAILED 02:22 what dogshit luck 02:23 fuck 02:25 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Fem Law), 592 points, T:1267, killed by a giant ant 02:26 [hdf-us] [evil] Sioh (Wiz Trt Mal Neu) murdered his faithful pseudodragon, on T:947 (0:26:10) 02:32 [hdf-au] [evil] Orcranger (Sam Dwa Fem Law), 23262 points, T:8883, killed by a bolt of fire 02:36 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a platypus, on T:20592 (11:44:35) 02:46 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law) performed his first genocide (two random monsters from class Z), on T:392 (0:05:10) 02:56 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law), 426 points, T:1158, zombified by a dwarf zombie 02:59 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) made his first wish - "blessed greased fixed +3 dragonhide helm of speed", on T:17023 (2:49:09) 02:59 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Kroo the Kobold King, on T:17045 (2:49:37) 03:03 [hdf-us] [evil] Sioh (Wiz Trt Mal Neu), 3430 points, T:4006, diseased by an elf zombie 03:10 [hdf-us] [nh343] stagnate (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Croesus, on T:56817 03:15 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Croesus, on T:18096 (3:05:46) 03:16 -!- fakepass has joined #hardfought 03:16 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) destroyed Kas, on T:21537 (12:25:25) 03:18 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28 -!- anselmus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29 -!- b_jonas has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:33 [hdf-au] [evil] Orcranger (Rog Orc Mal Cha), 12 points, T:203, poisoned by a rotted newt corpse, while disrobing 03:34 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Xanathar, on T:19873 (3:24:26) 03:34 -!- stoicjin has joined #hardfought 03:38 -!- stoicjin has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:42 actually pretty fucking steamed from that last loss, probably had other cures but no shot I lose that many fucking die rolls that hard 03:45 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Nebuchadnezzar, on T:20661 (3:35:04) 03:45 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) destroyed Vecna, on T:22108 (12:53:38) 03:51 [hdf-au] [evil] Orcranger (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 1643 points, T:2002, killed by a killer bee 03:55 [hdf-au] [evil] Orcranger (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 266 points, T:615, killed by a large spider 03:55 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the invisible Gollum, on T:471 (0:02:32) 03:56 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Goblin King, on T:565 (0:03:46) 03:58 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Colonel Blood, on T:21688 (3:48:41) 03:58 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:21689 (3:48:44) 03:59 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 03:59 And there's fucking displacer beast bones on DL 4. 03:59 Not my night, huh. 04:02 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) completed his quest without incident, on T:22089 (3:52:27) 04:02 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) destroyed the invisible Orcranger's ghost, the former Footpad, on T:1295 (0:09:48) 04:05 -!- eggandhull has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:08 [hdf-us] [hackm] Umbire (Wiz Ith Mal Cha), 2480 points, T:2032, quit 04:20 Shoot it 04:24 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a sea tortle, on T:3893 (0:30:57) 04:24 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) consumed animal products for the first time, by eating a small glob of gray ooze, on T:3938 (0:31:51) 04:25 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:4148 (0:32:45) 04:26 [hdf-us] [hackm] willisllama (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 520 points, T:785, killed by a fox 04:29 -!- neoxy has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in] 04:31 -!- shadowrider38 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:31 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 14121 points, T:5010, killed by a wand 04:31 -!- neoxy has joined #hardfought 04:34 [hdf-eu] [xnh] breadmaster (Sam Hum Fem Law) polymorphed her first object, on T:8388 04:35 -!- neoxy has quit [Client Quit] 04:36 -!- neoxy has joined #hardfought 04:39 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 04:43 -!- eggandhull has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:54 [hdf-us] [hackm] willisllama (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 413 points, T:1108, killed by a bat 04:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:43266 05:06 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 36 points, T:67, killed by a bear trap 05:07 [hdf-us] [hackm] willisllama (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 699 points, T:1357, killed by a giant spider 05:13 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed Gollum, on T:708 (0:04:24) 05:15 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 05:15 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:1931 (0:08:55) 05:18 [hdf-us] [hackm] Umbire (Wiz Ith Mal Cha), 1653 points, T:4034, killed by a housecat 05:18 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed Gollum, on T:2577 (0:11:56) 05:19 -!- eggandhull has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 211 points, T:816, killed by a fox 05:20 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:3747 05:21 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 7 points, T:118, killed by a goblin 05:21 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Goblin King, on T:1079 (0:12:28) 05:21 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 131 points, T:92, killed by a jackal, while praying 05:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 4 points, T:171, killed by a bear trap 05:26 -!- mobileuser has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:27 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) became literate by reading a book, on T:4004 (0:21:21) 05:36 -!- el has quit [*.net *.split] 05:37 -!- el has joined #hardfought 05:39 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 8435 points, T:7102, killed by a white unicorn 05:44 [hdf-us] [hackm] Umbire (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) destroyed willisllama's ghost, the former Rambler, on T:1517 (0:25:16) 05:49 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 05:53 -!- eggandhull has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59 [hdf-eu] [xnh] breadmaster (Sam Hum Fem Law) acquired the Sokoban amulet of reflection, on T:8459 06:04 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 6384 points, T:8985, killed by a Green-elf 06:05 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (gnomish wizards), on T:4194 (0:56:28) 06:05 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) eschewed atheism, by dropping 12 darts on an altar, on T:4253 (0:56:43) 06:05 -!- mobileuser has joined #hardfought 06:09 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:12 !PoM 06:12 APic: The moon is full for 1 more day. 06:16 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 06:18 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Fem Law) killed the Goblin King, on T:7355 (3:00:06) 06:21 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Fem Law) killed Gollum, on T:7408 (3:02:27) 06:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) bribed Asmodeus with 1938 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:46975 06:27 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 13476 points, T:6589, suffocated by a gelatinous cube, while frozen by a monster 06:27 -!- froggles has joined #hardfought 06:31 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:4648 06:33 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 06:34 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:47656 06:37 -!- eggandhull has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:50 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) became Thoth's Envoy of Balance, on T:43521 06:50 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) was bestowed with spellbook of finger of death, on T:43521 06:51 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 06:54 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) bribed Baalzebub with 411 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:49229 06:56 -!- eggandhull has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:07 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 11514 points, T:11557, killed by a mumak 07:08 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 07:09 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) changed form for the first time by mimicking a pile of gold, on T:4262 (0:29:07) 07:10 [hdf-us] [spl] post163 (Dra Hum Nbn Neu), 4 points, T:8, slipped while mounting a saddled baby black dragon 07:13 [hdf-eu] [xnh] breadmaster (Sam Hum Fem Law) was given Excalibur by the Lady of the Lake, on T:10899 07:16 [hdf-us] [hackm] post163 (Wiz Dwa Fem Neu), 0 points, T:1, killed by a system shock 07:16 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) murdered her faithful kitten, on T:1 07:16 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 20 points, T:1, caught herself in her own death field 07:17 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 6280 points, T:6103, killed by a champion of Raijin 07:18 [hdf-us] [nh343] post163 (Wiz Orc Fem Cha), 393 points, T:177, killed by a system shock 07:18 [hdf-us] [evil] post163 (Wiz Hob Mal Neu) performed his first genocide (hobbits), on T:1 (0:00:02) 07:18 [hdf-us] [evil] post163 (Wiz Hob Mal Neu), 0 points, T:1, killed by a scroll of genocide 07:19 [hdf-us] [xnh] post163 (Kni Hum Mal Law), 5 points, T:24, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 07:19 <@jannehmp> Hi FIQ, the problem is caused by you using symset:IBMgraphics, while you should use either symset:curses or symset:default 07:20 [hdf-us] [slshm] post163 (Wiz Vam Fem Cha), 0 points, T:1, killed by a scroll of genocide 07:21 [hdf-us] [hackm] post163 (Yeo Hum Mal Neu), 0 points, T:1, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 07:22 [hdf-us] [nh4] sdalf (post163) (Kni Hum Mal Law), 10580 points, T:164, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 07:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 0 points, T:1, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 07:24 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the invisible Gollum, on T:1204 (0:06:09) 07:24 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:1355 (0:06:30) 07:30 <@fredriq> @jannehmp That is not the case, none of the symsets work. Cursesgraphics isn't even an option 07:30 <@fredriq> this is 4.1.1 07:31 <@fredriq> this is DECgraphics 07:31 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/1126113032116912149/image.png 07:31 <@fredriq> None of them other than "plain" works 07:32 <@fredriq> Also note the borders 07:32 <@fredriq> This is when $TERM is set to screen-256color 07:32 <@fredriq> When I detach from tmux, it works OK ($TERM is xterm-256color) 07:32 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/1126113451668938802/image.png 07:32 <@jannehmp> Tommi says that these are caused most likely by the wrong terminal type string. The recommended at Hardfought is xterm-256color. 07:33 <@jannehmp> Yes, xterm-256color should be ok at Hardfought. 07:33 <@fredriq> @jannehmp GnollHack is the only variant with this problem 07:33 <@fredriq> Have you considered using libuncursed? It deals with this sort of sillines 07:33 <@fredriq> *silliness 07:33 <@fredriq> And will also allow you to use IBMgraphics in all terminals 07:34 <@jannehmp> I think we are using the normal libncurses, the same as NetHack 3.6.2 uses. 07:36 <@fredriq> yes 07:37 <@fredriq> I was suggesting using libuncursed instead šŸ˜› 07:37 <@fredriq> it's ais523's thing, and is what NH4 uses 07:37 <@fredriq> it ignores $TERM alltogether and uses polyglots instead 07:38 <@jannehmp> Maybe a big change but perhaps worth looking into. 07:38 <@fredriq> !tell hackemslashem saw your UnNetHack review, pretty interesting vid overall 07:38 Will do, @fredriq! 07:41 <@fredriq> !tell K2 pushed a minor FIQHack change 07:41 No worries, @fredriq, I've got this! 07:41 i saw 07:41 K2: Message from @fredriq at 2023-07-05 07:41 EDT: pushed a minor FIQHack change 07:42 i am in disbelief 07:42 <@fredriq> ahh ok 07:42 <@fredriq> also I might swap cavemen and barbarian wand ability 07:42 <@fredriq> I feel like barbarians ought to be more handy with a wand than a caveman 07:43 what did you do with FIQ? where is he? is he unharmed? 07:43 we dont pay ransoms here 07:43 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 6377 points, T:4042, killed by a gnome queen 07:45 <@jannehmp> We have made cavemen a bit like fighter-shamans, hence the better wand ability 07:46 <@fredriq> @jannehmp oh yeah I forgot that GnollHack had wand skill 07:46 <@fredriq> but it works differently 07:47 <@fredriq> swapped bar<->cav wand skills 07:47 <@fredriq> K2: you should go and ascend a caveman now šŸ™‚ šŸ™‚ šŸ™‚ 07:48 <@fredriq> I recall you talking about that some years ago 07:48 <@fredriq> cavemen are now the role that has restricted wand skill 07:50 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:1382 (0:06:24) 07:51 [hdf-eu] [xnh] breadmaster (Sam Hum Fem Law) destroyed DragonSidedD's ghost, the former Student of Stones, on T:11176 07:53 [hdf-us] [spl] post163 (Wiz Inf Fem Cha), 0 points, T:1, shot herself with a death ray 07:54 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:4088 07:58 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 07:58 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 2208 points, T:4280, killed by a jaguar 07:58 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 4051 points, T:2747, killed by a piranha 07:59 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) attained the rank of Arbalester (level 18), on T:49544 08:00 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01 [hdf-us] [nh4] cpittman (Kni Hum Mal Law), 66463 points, T:19313, killed by a plains centaur, while praying 08:01 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 624 points, T:726, killed by a steel arrow 08:02 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 08:03 <@fredriq> I am sure this caveman nerf will help people ascend caveman immensely 08:04 <@fredriq> Especially since so far, there has been 0 of them šŸ˜› 08:04 <@cpittman> @fredriq I don't think Barbarians would be better than cavemen with magic. I vaguely recall the barbarian from AD&D 2e used to get xp from destroying magic items. 08:04 <@fredriq> lol nice 08:04 <@fredriq> but I'm p sure barbarians have more magical affinity in NetHack than cavemen do 08:05 [hdf-us] [nh4] adfl (post163) (Kni Hum Mal Law), 4916 points, T:154, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 08:05 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:828 (0:03:35) 08:05 <@cpittman> I only played a couple sessions of 2e and one of the guys played a barbarian and he'd try to destroy every magic item we found. Extremely annoying 08:05 <@fredriq> hah 08:05 <@fredriq> I can see why it was removed šŸ˜› 08:05 -!- guestosao has joined #hardfought 08:07 <@cpittman> Thematically, I can appreciate it. But it doesn't work unless the whole party are barbarians. And then you're arguing over who gets to break stuff. 08:08 <@cpittman> I don't know if it was just his barbarian or all of them, but his character could detect magic 08:10 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:10 <@cpittman> I think I understand why knights are difficult now. I couldn't pray when I needed help because meleeing a creature that's fleeing or dressing dings your alignment. 08:12 yep, that's what sucks with knights 08:12 I tried playing one a while ago 08:12 "You caitiff!" gets irritating 08:12 -!- guestosao has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:12 <@cpittman> Anyways, ran into a treasure zoo and everyone's asleep, and I saw the horn in my inventory before I remembered there was a bugle. Now everyone's fleeing, but there's no way to go so they come at me. 08:13 <@cpittman> I got trampled like a Walmart shopper on Black Friday. 08:17 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 08:22 [hdf-us] [spl] nabru (Bar Mer Nbn Neu), 815 points, T:1436, taken down by a hobbit, while praying 08:22 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Client closed] 08:26 <@post163> Knight is my favorite role (and my most played vanilla role). I don't mind getting called a caitiff (which normally happens while disciplining my pony). 08:26 -!- mobileuser has joined #hardfought 08:27 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 9907 points, T:4981, killed by a rock gnome 08:29 heh 08:29 caveman still open eh? 08:32 @fredriq you have any more commits coming soon? asking so i'm not repeatedly patching fiqhack several times today 08:32 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:1246 (0:05:26) 08:34 [hdf-us] [xnh] nabru (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 966 points, T:837, killed by a hill orc called Aiulairuk of Rukoggrisu 08:35 [hdf-us] [un] post163 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 0 points, T:1, killed by a bolt of cold 08:36 <@post163> I've played 28 cavemen out of 46k games on Hardfought - 6 of the vanilla roles I've played fewer times. 08:40 [hdf-us] [xnh] nabru (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 261 points, T:682, killed by a bolt of cold zapped by a goblin 08:40 ... 08:43 [hdf-us] [xnh] nabru (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 14 points, T:49, killed by a jackal 08:44 -!- Bleeko has joined #hardfought 08:44 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) polymorphed her first object, on T:3442 (0:17:36) 08:47 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) destroyed Arahael's ghost, the former Novice, on T:3763 (0:19:52) 08:49 !lastgame merget 08:49 nabru: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/m/merget/xnethack/dumplog/1688404057.xnh.html 08:52 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) destroyed lacca's ghost, the former Heretic, on T:4792 (0:24:57) 08:53 I have a msgstop specifically for monsters turning to flee 08:54 works to avoid penalties as knight, consider back stab opportunities as rogue, generally gives a moment to stop and re-prio targets 08:54 [hdf-us] [hackm] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Mal Neu) had Sword of Balance bestowed upon him by Hermes, on T:14481 (8:34:00) 08:58 [hdf-us] [xnh] post163 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 0 points, T:23, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 08:58 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (humans), on T:1 09:00 [hdf-us] [xnh] nabru (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 2010 points, T:1125, killed by an orc-captain 09:01 [hdf-us] [nh370] jonosmalls88 (Mon Hum Mal Law), 163 points, T:380, killed by a gas spore's explosion 09:01 [hdf-us] [hackm] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Mal Neu) was sent an acid elemental by Hermes, on T:14956 (8:40:42) 09:07 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) eschewed atheism, by dropping a stone crude dagger on an altar, on T:7010 (0:39:55) 09:07 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) had Angelslayer bestowed upon her by Mog, on T:83440 (1 day, 3:04:45) 09:14 [hdf-us] [nh370] mobius (Val Dwa Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a werewolf, on T:6539 09:17 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 09:17 [hdf-us] [nh370] Flench (Ran Hum Mal Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:1785 09:19 -!- terrapin has quit [Quit: Cheers!] 09:20 [hdf-us] [nh370] mobius (Val Dwa Fem Law), 6612 points, T:6728, killed by hallucinogen-distorted Mr. Azura; the shopkeeper 09:20 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had Secespita bestowed upon her by Moloch, on T:8566 (0:53:33) 09:22 -!- eggandhull has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:27 [hdf-us] [nh370] Flench (Ran Hum Mal Neu), 3511 points, T:2178, killed by a killer bee 09:28 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Wiz Hum Fem Neu), 0 points, T:1, killed by a scroll of genocide 09:38 [hdf-us] [xnh] Gouhan (Sam Hum Mal Law) eschewed atheism, by dropping 10 arrows on an altar, on T:3364 09:38 -!- qt has joined #hardfought 09:39 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:10975 (1:11:38) 09:39 [hdf-eu] [nh370] MalkMcJorma (Pri Elf Fem Cha) became literate by naming Sting, on T:343 09:41 [hdf-us] [un] bismatum (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered the Dragon Caves, on T:86087 (1 day, 21:52:52) 09:46 [hdf-us] [un] bismatum (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered Vlad's tower, on T:86199 (1 day, 21:58:06) 09:47 -!- Umbire has quit [Quit: Umbire zaps a wand of digging!] 09:48 [hdf-us] [nh370] mobius (Val Dwa Fem Law), 118 points, T:292, killed by a large mimic 09:50 -!- malor has joined #hardfought 09:51 [hdf-eu] [nh370] MalkMcJorma (Pri Elf Fem Cha), 967 points, T:1553, killed by a dwarf 09:59 [hdf-eu] [nh370] MalkMcJorma (Pri Elf Fem Cha), 457 points, T:1213, killed by a wererat 10:01 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) changed form for the first time, becoming a baby gold dragon, on T:14229 (1:34:07) 10:02 [hdf-us] [xnh] Gouhan (Sam Hum Mal Law) was given Excalibur by the Lady of the Lake, on T:4565 10:04 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed Aphrodite, on T:14398 (1:37:04) 10:11 [hdf-eu] [nh370] MalkMcJorma (Pri Elf Fem Cha) became literate by naming Sting, on T:1284 10:16 [hdf-eu] [nh370] MalkMcJorma (Pri Elf Fem Cha), 1551 points, T:1717, killed by a giant spider 10:16 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had a dagger entrusted to her by Moloch, on T:15605 (1:49:16) 10:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] masterofpi (Bar Orc Mal Cha) was bestowed with Werebane by Set, on T:21346 10:32 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) murdered his faithful little dog, on T:1370 10:33 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Hum Fem Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:3534 10:35 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 977 points, T:1966, killed by a dagger, while frozen by a potion 10:40 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Hum Fem Neu) eschewed atheism, by dropping a circular amulet on an altar, on T:4012 10:42 [hdf-us] [hackm] Umbire (Wiz Ith Mal Cha), 10801 points, T:8483, quit 10:43 [hdf-us] [xnh] Gouhan (Sam Hum Mal Law), 7448 points, T:8450, killed by an ettin mummy 10:44 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) destroyed Goran's ghost, the former Acolyte, on T:1644 10:52 [hdf-us] [spl] shadowcat (Bar Inf Fem Cha), 819 points, T:1546, dismembered by a gnome lord 10:52 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 1775 points, T:2571, killed by a dog 10:53 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had Werebane bestowed upon her by Moloch, on T:20106 (2:25:40) 10:54 -!- dingotron has joined #hardfought 11:00 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 11:02 [hdf-us] [nh370] Flench (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) destroyed xororand's ghost, the former Acolyte, on T:1453 11:03 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 4725 points, T:4633, killed by a crocodile 11:04 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 1106 points, T:1883, killed by a giant ant 11:09 -!- callforjudgement has joined #hardfought 11:10 -!- ais523 has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by callforjudgement!~ais523@31.94.35.73))] 11:10 -!- callforjudgement is now known as ais523 11:10 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Hum Fem Neu) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:4414 11:11 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 11:12 [hdf-us] [spl] shadowcat (Bar Inf Fem Cha), 953 points, T:2651, taken down by a grizzly bear 11:14 -!- terrapin has joined #hardfought 11:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] Flench (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) destroyed Raisse's ghost, the former Thaumaturge, on T:3318 11:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] Flench (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) found Magicbane on the floor, on T:3320 11:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] Flench (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:3321 11:27 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:27 [hdf-us] [spl] shadowcat (Bar Inf Fem Cha) destroyed shadowcat's ghost, the former Pillager, on T:2758 11:27 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 11:31 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 502 points, T:942, killed by a dwarf 11:34 [hdf-us] [evil] terrapin (Rog Dro Fem Cha) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1224 (0:16:18) 11:36 [hdf-us] [evil] terrapin (Rog Dro Fem Cha), 675 points, T:1251, killed by a Grey-elf 11:42 -!- stoicjin has joined #hardfought 11:42 -!- tsadok has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:43 -!- tsadok has joined #hardfought 11:45 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 3530 points, T:3411, killed by a winter wolf cub 11:51 [hdf-us] [hackm] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Mal Neu) completed Sokoban, acquiring a copper amulet of reflection, on T:22445 (11:30:41) 11:52 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:44956 11:52 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:44965 11:55 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) performed the invocation, on T:45145 11:57 [hdf-us] [un] Numenorean (Mon Hum Mal Law), 3259 points, T:4858, killed by a gray unicorn 11:59 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the high priest of Moloch, on T:45374 11:59 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) acquired The Amulet of Yendor, on T:45377 12:08 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) made her first wish - "+5 grayswandir", on T:27913 (3:40:40) 12:08 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor (2nd time), on T:46229 12:09 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) wished for "fixed amulet of reflection", on T:27915 (3:42:10) 12:10 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed Baalzebub, on T:46383 12:11 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor (3rd time), on T:46484 12:11 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 12:14 <@fredriq> !tell K2 overhauled conflict 12:14 Will do, @fredriq! 12:15 you're on a roll 12:15 K2: Message from @fredriq at 2023-07-05 12:14 EDT: overhauled conflict 12:15 I have just published a blog post, containing balance feedback primarily for vanilla NetHack: http://nethack4.org/blog/playtesting-2023.html 12:16 I would be interested to see what people agree and disagree with, both in terms of my identification of problems and in terms of my suggested fixes 12:17 ais523 please setup a secure certificate for nethack4.org letsencrypt is free and easy to setup 12:18 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed Yeenoghu, on T:47406 12:18 K2: I am worried about security, there is a *lot* more attack surface in an https server than there is in an http server 12:18 i cant access this from work 12:18 if its not secure, its blocked 12:18 and even more so when the server is automatically updating its configuration over the Internet every month 12:19 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) entered the Elemental Planes, on T:47409 12:19 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) entered Plane of Earth, on T:47409 12:19 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor (5th time), on T:47409 12:19 would a workplace like that approve of you reading NetHack-related blogs anyway? :-D 12:20 let me check with the sysadmin 12:20 <@fredriq> K2: basically it changes conflict in such a way that I don't think hurts or benefits players generally 12:20 oh that's me 12:20 :) 12:20 <@fredriq> but it was done in order to allow monsters causing conflict to have a sensible effect on players 12:20 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 108984 points, T:28771, diseased by a giant zombie 12:20 @fredriq gotcha 12:21 [hdf-us] [evil] terrapin (Ran Gno Mal Cha) killed the Goblin King, on T:2731 (0:35:14) 12:21 <@fredriq> Basically, what happens is that at the end of the turn, each monster causing conflict, creates a zone of conflict that is radius 8, excluding the conflict-causer themselves (note that they can still be conflicted if they are within another conflict-causer's area of effect) 12:21 wtf my connection to this blog got mitmd and they replaced the content with BAD balance opinions 12:22 ais523 i'll check with the network admin and see if we can allow an exception for nethack4.org 12:22 <@fredriq> All monsters within the affected zone of conflict will be forced to do a melee attack on a random monster next to them (this is a free action, so it doesn't mess with turn order or similar) 12:22 oh wait that's also me 12:22 like how containers have no place in the game 12:22 I can put this into a pastebin for you, probably? 12:22 <@fredriq> unless they do a Willpower save, as per vanilla conflict resistances 12:22 ais523 no its ok 12:22 i just made an exception rule, i can see it 12:22 bofh 12:22 made me do *gasp* work 12:23 <@fredriq> This does mean that the AI will still be able to pursue you while you cause Conflict. However, it also makes Conflict's actual effect more reliable as well 12:23 neat 12:23 <@fredriq> so I don't think it's a player buff or nerf, but the effect can now make sense to affect players 12:24 this reminds me of an effect I suggested for Stormbringer 12:24 <@fredriq> However, I'm not confident that it doesn't mess with balance, it would need player testing 12:24 where it melee-attacks a random adjacent square every turn 12:24 <@fredriq> Currently, the AI doesn't abuse Conflict, but I had some ideas for it 12:24 I would expect this change to have a balance effect, but not expect it to have a *bad* balance effect 12:24 most likely visible but neutral 12:25 <@fredriq> I think the biggest implication is the fact that conflict doesn't care about monster/player speed whatsoever 12:25 <@fredriq> So it would let slow monsters get more attacks in, and vice versa with fast monsters 12:25 oh, once per turn rather than once per action? 12:25 <@fredriq> yes 12:26 -!- froggles has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:26 <@fredriq> This might need adjustment, but I'll keep it like this for now 12:28 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Mon Hum Fem Cha), 1361 points, T:2018, killed by a gnome lord 12:29 ais523 regarding your portal detection methods (or lack thereof) whilst in the planes - what about wearing the amulet of yendor? it will tell you when you're close 12:29 i also keep some wands of secret door detection handy for this purpose also 12:29 the spell 'detect unseen' should also work for that 12:30 K2: I did that eventually; it sort-of helped 12:30 (wearing the Amulet, that is) 12:30 @fredriq i'll update fiqhack here soon 12:31 ais523 ah ok 12:32 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) entered Plane of Air, on T:48107 12:33 regarding consumables (specifically potions) - I think it'd be a better course of action to tweak their effects rather than increasing their spawn rate. case in point - dnethack. you can acquire so many potions in that variant, it starts to become difficult to manage them 12:34 and before i forget to say it - nice write-up ais523 12:34 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) entered Plane of Fire, on T:48185 12:35 K2: I was already leaning in the direction of "make potions better rather than more numerous" ā€“ but confirming that thought is useful feedback 12:35 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:7523 12:36 [hdf-us] [nh370] Flench (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 6659 points, T:4632, killed by a vampire lord 12:36 hah just had an idea regarding portals on the planes - instead of having to find a portal to the next plane, you have to defeat a tough boss monster specific to each plane. once they are defeated, you're automagically transported to the next plane. have them spawn on the other side of the map 12:37 that is not a terrible idea 12:37 :) 12:37 the only kind of ideas I have ais523 are good ones :P 12:38 (my wife would argue that is not the case) 12:38 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) entered Plane of Water, on T:48277 12:40 -!- stoicjin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 4011 points, T:8124, quit 12:44 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:52 [hdf-us] [hackm] post163 (Wiz Dwa Fem Neu), 0 points, T:1, killed by a bolt of cold 12:53 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 0 points, T:29, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 12:53 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 12:53 [hdf-us] [spl] post163 (Kni Inf Fem Cha), 4 points, T:28, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 12:53 [hdf-us] [spl] post163 (Dra Hum Nbn Cha), 8 points, T:140, slipped while mounting a saddled baby shimmering dragon 12:53 -!- terrapin has quit [Quit: Cheers!] 12:54 [hdf-us] [un] post163 (Kni Hum Mal Law), 50 points, T:26, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 12:54 [hdf-us] [spl] post163 (Wiz Dro Mal Cha) performed his first annihilation (drows), on T:1 12:54 <@fredriq> ais523: reading through your blog post, I'm curious if you think my changes to Plane of Water is an improvement 12:55 it is unlikely that you would have made it worse :-D 12:55 what did you change? 12:56 <@fredriq> specifically, I did the following: all bubbles are always visible so a portal stays visible after detection, a Breath timer was implemented (unrelated change, but impacts Plane of Water), monsters with intrinsic swimming are twice as fast there (stacking with usual speed extrinsic+intrinsic) 12:56 these are good changes 12:56 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Hum Fem Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:9389 12:56 <@fredriq> IIRC I also buffed water elementals, but I'm not 100% sure about that 12:56 it may not be enough to make the plane actually interesting but it fixes some of the worst problems with it 12:57 [hdf-us] [hackm] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Mal Neu) became Hermes' Envoy of Balance, on T:26816 (12:36:17) 12:57 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 12:58 [hdf-us] [nh370] Kevkat (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) wished for "Blessed Fixed Greased +3 Speed Boots", got "a greased pair of speed boots", on T:30043 12:59 <@fredriq> I also had some ideas, but haven't yet done any implementation of them, on improvements to plane of fire 12:59 <@fredriq> which is IMO the 2nd worst plane currently 13:01 <@fredriq> my idea was as follows: you take constant fire damage on the plane, worse without fire immunity/resistance (only monsters that "like fire" can entirely bypass this damage). Also, being near lava -- including if you levitate -- deals additional damage, depending on how many of the surrounding 9 tiles are lava. Also, occasionally, lava erupts from the floor, causing serious damage if you are levitating/walker over lava at that moment 13:01 <@fredriq> I also intended to make sure that the Portal can't generate a few tiles away from the entrance (I'd probably re-roll it if it randomizes within 40 tiles or similar) 13:02 <@fredriq> Also, removing the fire traps -- they do basically nothing other than cause message spam at the moment 13:02 there is a distance limit for the portal on Fire already, it's just very small 13:02 something like 4 or 5 tiles, I think? 13:03 <@fredriq> btw, what do you think of 3.6+ changes to Plane of Air? 13:04 I'm neutral 13:04 <@fredriq> I consider them to have made the plane worse, because it is more frustrating to navigate now, and it was also made easier because monsters can't surround you as easily 13:04 I think it may be very slightly worse? but not by enough to really care about 13:04 <@fredriq> I actually liked 3.4.3 air a lot, because it's basically all just open air 13:04 <@fredriq> so it's not exactly difficult to know where to go 13:05 <@fredriq> but the monsters there are really dangerous, especially air E 13:05 <@fredriq> so the strategy isn't so much figuring out how to navigate it 13:05 <@fredriq> but to deal with the monsters 13:06 spam a tooled horn 13:06 I am serious, it works 13:06 like, really spam it, every couple of spaces 13:06 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:3604 13:06 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu) eschewed atheism, by dropping a circular amulet on an altar, on T:3613 13:06 <@fredriq> Yeah, I've noticed how strong tooled horns are 13:06 <@fredriq> but that isn't really exclusive to Air 13:06 <@fredriq> and I suspect the tool could use a nerf 13:07 I generally only use this strategy on Air, but maybe that's because it's unnecessary elsewhere rather than because it isn't broken elsewhere 13:07 <@fredriq> it's broken basically everywhere šŸ˜› 13:08 might be interesting to try it in the Sanctum graveyard 13:08 <@fredriq> I also had some very minor ideas of changes to Plane of Earth. I think it is mostly OK right now, but I don't really like how wands of digging trivializes the navigation of it 13:09 <@fredriq> basically I wanted to make it so that a wand of digging works the same way as pickaxes do in it 13:09 <@fredriq> dig out a bunch of tiles at once and create earth elementals 13:11 <@fredriq> ais523: Tooled horns are good enough that I'd probably spend an UnNetHack non-magical wish on them 13:12 there aren't that many good targets for nonmagical wishes 13:12 <@fredriq> They are surprisingly rare though 13:12 although, I find that I usually come across one naturally 13:12 <@fredriq> I only find them in a fraction of all my ascensions 13:12 drums have the same effect (although are inferior in some other ways) 13:12 <@fredriq> (Drums are included in that, they have more or less the same effect) 13:13 <@fredriq> ais523: out of curiousity, do you have plans for more blog posts in the future? I always liked them, but this was the first one in many years 13:14 I have plans, the difficulty is finding the motivation to write them 13:14 <@fredriq> ok 13:15 <@fredriq> also, you played basically all "vanilla-like" variants in Junethack lol 13:15 <@fredriq> no plans on playing 4k, fh, dnh, xnh? others? 13:16 <@fredriq> I watched hackemslashem's UnNetHack review earlier today, which gave me an interesting Gehennom idea 13:16 <@fredriq> Un has a Moria branch with non-persistent levels 13:16 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Mon Hum Fem Cha), 1438 points, T:2156, killed by a fire ant 13:16 <@fredriq> it would be interesting if part of Gehennom was like that 13:16 <@fredriq> part of the main Gehennom branch I mean 13:16 <@fredriq> I suspect it might be a better implementation of what i think the intention behind the mysterious force was 13:17 <@fredriq> namely, to delay your ascension run and make things more exciting due to harassments, extra monster spawns, etc 13:17 it would have a number of negative side effects: Gehennom would become slower to backtrack through repeatedly, and the way down would be uninteresting because it would purely be "gather what items you want to (often none) and then find the stairs as fast as possible" 13:18 or even just "dig through the floor", why waste time finding the downstairs if the level is going to be regenerated anyway? 13:18 ā€¦actually, a good observation is that in a game of NetHack, you both go down through Gehennom and up through Gehennom, and these two stages of the game actually have somewhat different requirements 13:18 <@fredriq> I'm not entirely sure if the downstair path becoming uninteresting is a bad thing 13:19 in very old versions of NetHack, Hell had no downstairs 13:19 <@fredriq> it's not like I'd fill the entire Gehennom with those kinds of levels 13:19 the only way to get to the bottom was controlled levport 13:19 <@fredriq> yeah 13:19 <@fredriq> I got to endgame in 1.3d once 13:19 <@fredriq> messed up with a wand of death due to a typo, would probably have ascended it otherwise 13:20 <@fredriq> but I remember that quirk 13:21 I think it would need to be very clear that a level was non-persistent, e.g. to prevent players accidentally making a stash there 13:21 few people choose to stash in Gehennom (I have occasionally made a stash that late but I generally use the bottom level of Vlad's) 13:21 <@fredriq> ais523: I figured I'd just keep all monsters and items there 13:21 <@fredriq> just re-randomize their location 13:22 <@Loggers_VIII> ais523 I read your post and Iā€™d just like to say that mirrors being a one time use reflection that breaks after reflecting is a brilliant idea 13:22 oh, I stash on the vibrating square quite frequently 13:22 @Loggers_VIII: thanks for the feedback! 13:22 reading through the blog and working on feedback 13:22 <@fredriq> @Loggers_VIII the problem if that is all they are, is that it would likely get used up by a random winter wolf cub 13:22 my opinions are kind of rude it seems 13:22 it is hard to think of ways to make consumable reflection work, because you can't plausibly use it in advance 13:23 Demo: disagreeing opinions are probably even more important than agreeing opinions; even if I continue to disagree it at least makes me think about why, and it is possible to change my mind 13:23 <@Loggers_VIII> @fredriq I see the issue but I still think Iā€™d rather have it than not 13:23 the first half so far boils down to "add shopkeeper serviced and add something like gatetown to the midgame" 13:23 well it's just im so bored with certain balance issues because they are so old hat 13:23 <@fredriq> idk what gatetown is 13:24 <@Loggers_VIII> yea whatā€™s gatetown 13:24 it doesn't seem that comparable to shopkeeper services? apart from maybe the IDing of potions, but that is supposed to be given mostly for free, rather than something you dedicate resources to 13:24 <@fredriq> @Demo I bet you'd love GnollHack 13:24 " or else the resources could be replicated within the main dungeon, at a sufficient depth that a character who could reaching them would likely have no trouble getting to Minetown." this 13:24 <@fredriq> iirc it removes basically all viable sources of identify other than by shopkeepers 13:24 [hdf-us] [spl] post163 (Wiz Dro Mal Cha), 0 points, T:1, killed by a scroll of annihilation 13:24 <@fredriq> so identify becomes a huge money sink in that game 13:25 yeah i dont like that 13:25 @fredriq: does this include indirect identification? use-identification? 13:25 <@fredriq> scrolls of identify was nerfed (iirc they only ID a single item) 13:25 <@shadow_rider> luckily you get a buttload of money 13:25 <@fredriq> and the spell requires components 13:25 <@post163> ais523 I read the blog and like the idea of being able to counter the /oD (though the "saving grace" is not well explained). I feel that potions are useless (but I grab them anyway just to prevent a hostile from getting them first). 13:25 <@fredriq> that aren't easy to get in bulk IIRC 13:25 if you have easy access to an altar and shopkeeper id services you can get over a lot of the affect of the quirks of informal id 13:25 and it also gives you something to spend money on 13:25 Demo: fwiw, I don't think "town deep in the main dungeon" is the best way to fix this problem, I just wanted to flag it up as a potential fix 13:26 it is a piece of the fix 13:26 <@Loggers_VIII> post163 saving grace is in 3.7 basically when you die for the first time from HP damage you get a pseudo-life saving 13:26 i will have probably 1-2 hours of audio around this blog post uploaded when i finish that will go into actual detail of my takes on this 13:26 <@Loggers_VIII> I think thatā€™s how it works, anyway 13:26 <@fredriq> wait, saving grace is an actual feature? 13:26 @Loggers_VIII: saving grace only works if you're at 90% HP or more and leaves you at 1hp 13:26 <@fredriq> I thought it was just an idea in the blog 13:26 hah 13:26 it's *much* worse than life saving 13:26 yeah its in 3.7 13:26 <@fredriq> huh 13:26 <@fredriq> interesting 13:26 basically just a protection from being unexpectedly oneshotted 13:26 <@fredriq> do monsters get it? 13:26 <@Loggers_VIII> Ah ok so if you get oneshot 13:27 most of my 3.7 games it never triggered 13:27 monsters don't get it 13:27 also there's no message 13:27 <@fredriq> aw 13:27 <@fredriq> that's not symmetric 13:27 so it's a bit of an opaque mechanic 13:27 i dont like it. smacks of 'easy mode' 13:27 monsters getting it would be *really* annoying :-D 13:27 <@Loggers_VIII> Wait would that work for ray damage? 13:27 <@fredriq> ais523: I posted a YANI some years ago I think that you shouldn't be able to be oneshotted from full HP 13:27 <@fredriq> I wonder if it was inspired by that YANI 13:27 <@Loggers_VIII> Like if you got oneshot by a frost horn 13:27 @Loggers_VIII: I think so 13:27 <@Loggers_VIII> omg best feature 13:28 [hdf-us] [nh370] inlawBiker (Hea Hum Mal Neu) killed Medusa, on T:28317 13:28 not if the ray bounces 13:28 <@fredriq> ais523: I assume it only works for HP damage? 13:28 <@fredriq> not instadeath sources? 13:28 @post163 probably knows: do your self-zaps of wands at the start of the game take two attempts to kill you rather than one in 3.7? 13:28 @fredriq: right 13:28 <@Loggers_VIII> fecking early game rays donā€™t even get me started 13:28 <@fredriq> ais523: is it within a player action, or a single hit? several monsters have multiple attacks, and raybounces/etc is a thing 13:29 devteam could easily make it so wands of death dont spawn until deeper into the dungeon 13:29 current implementation appears to be single hit, although I consider this a mistake 13:29 (it isn't my mechanic) 13:29 <@fredriq> K2: but will they? 13:29 <@fredriq> it sounds like the kind of change that they wouldn't add 13:29 who knows 13:29 K2: the generation chance shoots up at dlvl/xlvl average 8 13:29 <@post163> ais523 I survive my wand self zaps unless equipment destruction puts me below the HP threshold for the "saving grace" to trigger (or I can just break a wand to bypass the mechanic). 13:29 <@fredriq> they are really conservative wrt balance changes like that 13:29 <@fredriq> I mean, poison instadeath is a thing to this day 13:29 no it isnt 13:29 not in 3.7 13:29 <@Loggers_VIII> no it isnā€™t 13:29 yes, poison instadeath was changed 13:29 <@fredriq> oh? it certainly existed in 3.6 13:29 <@fredriq> that is cool 13:30 <@Loggers_VIII> in 3.7 itā€™s been changed to big damage max hp loss and attribute loss I think 13:30 K2: this is IMO too early in the dungeon, but the location seems to have been chosen intentionally 13:30 love reading the backscroll 13:30 <@fredriq> paxed changed it in d0b11fd2c05dae 13:30 <@fredriq> nice 13:30 <@Loggers_VIII> honestly wands of death just need to not generate until like dlvl15 or something 13:30 confirms that devs basically think, "$strategy works. must nerf $strategy" 13:30 @post163: thanks for the info; I think you may actually have caught a bug/oversight in the saving grace implementation there 13:30 hothraxxa yeah, game mechanics discussion is back hah 13:31 <@post163> wrt the saving grace I've died when the attack wand rebounded and hit me again: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/p/post163/nethack/dumplog/1688128419.nh.html 13:31 hothraxxa: well there isn't much point in nerfing strategies that don't work *glares at orctown* 13:31 <@Loggers_VIII> orctown my beloved 13:31 there is, however, a debate to be made about whether a nerf is needed at all 13:31 eg fiqhack planes were already nasty enough to make me stop playing fiqhack. why make them harder? 13:31 <@fredriq> orctown is mean 13:31 <@fredriq> worst 3.6 change IMO 13:32 blaspheme 13:32 <@fredriq> and I hardly ever used the protection racket in the first place 13:32 <@shadow_rider> itā€™s about time we all realized that nobody agrees on anything so we all make our own personal forks and all be happy 13:32 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Mon Hum Fem Cha) was bestowed with Stormbringer by Huan Ti, on T:3696 13:32 <@Loggers_VIII> but donā€™t you love just fucking killing 30 orcs like hot damn dopamine 13:32 <@fredriq> so if that was the reason orctown was added, it feels like quite overkill of a nerf 13:32 @shadow_rider how dare you be the voice of reason. remove thyself from mine sight! 13:32 <@shadow_rider> :P 13:32 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: could you clarify the issues with fh Planes? 13:32 heh 13:32 @fredriq: as far as I am aware, that's the reason it was added in the original variant; I'm not sure if the same reasoning was used to add it to vanilla 13:33 <@fredriq> I know you dislike Astral, I was unaware of opinions about the elemental ones 13:33 <@Loggers_VIII> I think k2ā€™s idea of bosses on the planes was cool 13:33 -!- terrapin has joined #hardfought 13:33 <@Loggers_VIII> But probably too big a change for vanilla I guess 13:33 vanilla is in theory accepting of big changes, but devteam members are often too scared to propose them 13:33 <@Loggers_VIII> An area that does need attention is demon bosses though. Theyā€™re worthless pushovers and it feels wrong (apart from demo) 13:34 <@fredriq> (also I don't think I've changed Planes balance in years) 13:34 fiq: my biggest beef is that disallowing all teleport on astral including magic whistles makes it brutal and forces yo to melee mobs constantly 13:34 <@shadow_rider> ais be that one 13:34 I tried proposing some big changes about 15 minutes, though; in a few days we may know whether the rest of the devteam agree 13:34 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: ...but magic whistles work fine on Astral? 13:34 <@fredriq> just bless them 13:34 <@fredriq> they ignore noteleport them 13:34 well mine sure didn't 13:34 <@fredriq> *then 13:34 <@shadow_rider> what was the proposal ? did i miss it 13:34 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Mon Hum Fem Cha) tasted meat for the first time, by eating a floating eye corpse, on T:3886 13:34 oh bless them. i guess mine wasn't blessed 13:34 @shadow_rider: it's basically explained in the blog post 13:34 <@Loggers_VIII> The easiest change to plane balance that I would love is make famine and pesty immune to death rays 13:34 http://nethack4.org/blog/playtesting-2023.html if you missed the link 13:34 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: I wanted to make BUC more interesting on some items 13:34 <@fredriq> the magic whistle change was part of that 13:35 don't have a problem there 13:35 <@fredriq> it's in the changelog 13:35 <@fredriq> >Magic whistles will not recall pets on noteleport levels unless it's blessed 13:35 just that spellcasters have to turn into tanks on astral 13:35 <@shadow_rider> itā€™s the whole blog being suggested ? or whatā€™s the bottom line 13:35 <@shadow_rider> sorry i donā€™t have time to read the whole thing rn 13:35 the whole blog post is feedback + suggestions, there are a number of majorish changes suggested 13:35 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: Spellcasters on Astral aren't any more tanky than elsewhere, are they? 13:35 <@Loggers_VIII> If a horned devil can be immune to death rays the incarnations of famine and pestilence should be too! >:( 13:35 one of the biggest is to make potions much more powerful 13:36 <@Loggers_VIII> Potions need to be more powerful for sure. Like 75% of them are just holyfodder 13:36 I kind-of like the way that NetHack bosses are inconsistent about what they're vulnerable to 13:36 <@Loggers_VIII> Acid? Sleep? Oil? Donā€™t make me laugh 13:36 ooh, I love "holyfodder" as a word 13:37 I am amused that you listed sleep, not because you're wrong, but because it's probably the most powerful combat potion 13:37 fiq: i stopped playing fiqhack because i went through a brutal astral in which i was mobbed constantly. the only way to make a path was to hack my way through 13:37 <@fredriq> ais523: Some years ago, I overhauled getobj in NetHack to allow picking floor objects and made a PR to devteam about it. Not only was the PR utterly ignored, aosdict also seemed to blame me for this, which I never really understood the reasoning behind, since I have little control over DT whims 13:37 <@Loggers_VIII> cuz itā€™s like polyfodder but holyfodder. my intellect scares even myself sometimes 13:37 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Mon Hum Fem Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:4101 13:37 <@fredriq> but that was the last time I decided to submit any large-scale changes to devteam 13:37 monters kept summoning more monsters and this was after you toned down the wand of create monster 13:37 <@Loggers_VIII> Yeah sleep is so weak but so good in comparison to the others, lol 13:37 <@fredriq> no point in working on things that won't get accepted, after all 13:37 <@shadow_rider> hothraxxa check out the new epic fh change 13:37 we don't really handle PRs well 13:37 so then recently i tried fiqhack again 13:38 <@fredriq> (and it wasn't just rejected, it was flat-out ignored which I thought was a bit harsh) 13:38 <@Loggers_VIII> In practice the only potions that really matter are invisibility, all healing, speed, gain energy gain level and paralysis 13:38 got to astral, same song 13:38 <@shadow_rider> you can gamble with covetous warp and book of the dead 13:38 I don't use GitHub, for example, and so don't actually see them; and we don't generally get notified 13:38 <@shadow_rider> and random teleport for the win 13:38 <@Loggers_VIII> Thereā€™s too many potions that are just gotchas I think 13:38 for ages GitHub wasn't even the official repo, just a mirror 13:38 @Loggers_VIII: invisibility? 13:38 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: you should've seen Shadow_Rider's one Astral run in fiqhack lol. Felt like there was like 5 monsters in the entire level lol 13:38 <@fredriq> No idea what happened there 13:38 will agree with the others 13:38 <@Loggers_VIII> ais523 for aggravate monster 13:39 lucky bugger 13:39 do you need that at long range for something? this is a strategy I hadn't previously thought of 13:39 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: FIQHack summons are temporary nowdays though 13:39 (at shorter ranges, musical instruments work, as do things like kicking walls) 13:39 <@fredriq> if you can survive the initial burst, spellcasters run out of Pw eventually 13:39 <@Loggers_VIII> yeah now that I think about it in vanilla you donā€™t need invis 13:40 <@fredriq> they aren't very conservative 13:40 <@Loggers_VIII> Variants clouded my judgement 13:40 ah, OK 13:40 if variants are making c!oI more useful, that's interesting information in its own right 13:40 <@shadow_rider> gain energy and speed are needed in vanilla either 13:40 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 2816 points, T:6527, poisoned by a rotted garter snake corpse 13:40 <@shadow_rider> honestly hearing is all you need 13:40 yes that does help in the dungeons but they last long enough on astral that it doesn't make much difference 13:40 <@shadow_rider> honestly you donā€™t even need healing 13:40 <@shadow_rider> all potions suck conformed 13:40 I thought you listed gain energy and speed as alchemy components 13:40 <@Loggers_VIII> Yeah 13:41 <@fredriq> @Loggers_VIII in what variant does aggravate monster help you? I'm a bit confused 13:41 <@Loggers_VIII> You can inflate HP numbers easily with alchemy 13:41 NERF NEEDED 13:41 <@shadow_rider> evilhack 13:41 <@shadow_rider> where boss monsters are actually scary 13:41 <@Loggers_VIII> @FIQ evil has a buncha tough bosses that you can more easily beat by summoning them to you instead of weathering the storm to the stairs 13:42 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: I have already nerfed summons many, many times though 13:42 i think it's fourk that pretty much caps hp increase at about 250 13:42 <@shadow_rider> actually does invis even work that far away 13:42 <@fredriq> at this point idk what I am supposed to do 13:42 @fredriq fiqhack has been updated on hdf servers 13:42 <@Loggers_VIII> shadow yea 13:42 fiq: do you remember my first astral? 13:42 <@Loggers_VIII> Invis is basically whole map 13:42 <@fredriq> your first astral was before countless nerfs 13:42 i know 13:42 <@fredriq> but yeah that one was rather excessive 13:42 <@shadow_rider> couldā€™ve sworn i did it once and nobody noticed me :(( 13:42 hmm, would an invis-aggravate strategy work on quest nemeses in vanilla? 13:42 <@fredriq> there was a reason I nerfed things šŸ˜› 13:42 <@shadow_rider> i guess nobody likes me 13:42 <@shadow_rider> do i smell 13:42 <@Loggers_VIII> It doesnā€™t work on vecna, maybe that was what you tried 13:43 <@shadow_rider> oh bruh 13:43 <@shadow_rider> why do i always get special cased 13:43 <@Loggers_VIII> lol 13:43 <@Loggers_VIII> You can use earthquake to wake him up if ur high enough level 13:43 <@shadow_rider> ais itā€™s done for rogue quest so possibly 13:43 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: anyway, idk what other changes I can do to Astral other than revamp it entirely, and I'm not sure if that is a good idea 13:44 <@fredriq> if summons are still a problem 13:44 just bring back expert teleport 13:44 anyway, I need to go for a bit, but I'll check the logs later 13:44 <@shadow_rider> fiq hereā€™s what you do: make player monsters better at ascending and then let me tame player monsters 13:44 <@Loggers_VIII> bye ais523 o/ 13:44 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 13:44 <@fredriq> lol @shadow_rider 13:44 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Mon Hum Fem Cha), 2565 points, T:4403, killed by a bolt of fire zapped by herself 13:45 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: I don't want to have a huge balance rift between roles like that. Besides, it makes very little sense thematically 13:45 <@fredriq> Also, you can warp in Astral yourself nowdays due to covetous changes 13:45 <@fredriq> requires breaking polyself conduct though 13:45 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Kni Hum Mal Law), 0 points, T:2, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 13:46 [hdf-us] [hackm] post163 (Yeo Hob Mal Neu), 0 points, T:5, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 13:46 <@fredriq> I suppose what I could do is have a bunch of teleport regions and unrestrict noteleport from astral 13:47 <@fredriq> but I'm not sure if that is a good idea 13:48 it's your variant and you don't need to change anything just to make me happy 13:48 <@fredriq> oh I know that 13:48 i'm just relating why i don't like it 13:48 <@fredriq> but I don't want to resist change for the sake of resisting changes šŸ˜› 13:48 <@fredriq> I'm always open to suggestions 13:49 <@fredriq> even if I obviously have final say 13:49 agreed, you've been more responsive than most *cough*k2*cough* 13:49 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) attained the rank of Archer (level 22), on T:51472 13:49 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Client closed] 13:49 <@shadow_rider> lol 13:50 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: in other news, FIQHack soldiers aren't Skilled in wands anymore 13:50 \o/ 13:50 <@fredriq> it was done in part to make reflection less useless 13:50 did you scale them a la k2's idea? 13:50 <@fredriq> I didn't copy K2's ideas, no. The only change is that the regular soldier is basic 13:50 <@fredriq> The other 3 ranks are all Skilled 13:51 cool 13:51 <@fredriq> (apparently captains didn't have Expert skill in the first place like I thought they did, and at this point I suspect upgrading them would make them too mean) 13:51 hothraxxa you're so full of shit 13:52 i'm very responsive to player feedback. not my problem if you dont always like the answer 13:52 :) 13:52 whut? me? 13:52 yes you 13:52 you should check your left leg. i'll bet it's a bit longer now 13:53 nope. you are still full of it 13:53 :P 13:54 <@fredriq> anyway, wrt feedback: usually if multiple people are complaining about a specific change, chances are that the aspect is poorly balanced. Even if I might be personally unsure about some changes, I'd rather have a variant that more people enjoy if I can. I will never compromise on the main design goals of the variant though 13:54 <@fredriq> namely; QoL, better AI, symmetry 13:55 <@shadow_rider> k2 would you add boss monsters to planes in evil? 13:55 fiq... we've been complaining about the wand 'balance' patch for years lol 13:55 <@shadow_rider> cuz if so it seems like a ton of bosses 13:55 <@fredriq> K2: and I have done several changes in response šŸ˜› 13:55 true 13:55 lately :P 13:56 @shadow_rider i'm thinking about it 13:56 <@fredriq> no, not "lately" 13:56 <@fredriq> since the very beginning 13:56 <@fredriq> if you want the first iteration of wand rebalance patch 13:56 [hdf-us] [nh370] Dirge (Mon Hum Mal Cha) made his first wish - "blessed greased fireproof +2 speed boots", got "a greased pair of combat boots", on T:8986 13:56 <@fredriq> play fourk 13:56 the soldier change is very recent 13:56 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56 -!- Andrio has quit [Quit: while already on Charon's boat.] 13:56 i think splicehack had boss monsters on some of the planes (and extra planes were added too), but the portals are still there 13:57 <@fredriq> fourk has wand rebalane patch without my changes to it 13:57 so fourk had it before fiqhack? 13:57 <@fredriq> meaning that, as an example, soldiers in the Castle can zap you with lightning while you are wearing magic mirror of merlin, and lose your rings 13:58 ow 13:58 <@Loggers_VIII> K2 remind me, do demon bosses in evil break boulders? 13:58 no they do not 13:58 the boulder breaking routine doesnt play nice with covetous monsters 13:58 <@Loggers_VIII> aw 13:58 <@fredriq> removing ring destruction was the very first balance adjustment, it was something I actually intended to do before I even finalized the code 13:58 as they dont actually move 13:58 they just tele everywhere 13:58 <@Loggers_VIII> ah I see 13:58 <@fredriq> I don't really know why fourk didn't get this change, it's possible that I gave jonadab a bad revision or something 13:58 <@Loggers_VIII> Just give them a spell that creates a pit on a random square adjacent to the player :p 13:59 heh 13:59 <@fredriq> but yeah, as a result, 4k wand rebalance patch is mean 13:59 maybe jonadab would have fixed wand ablance in fourk if hothraxxa yelled at him more about it 13:59 *balance 13:59 <@fredriq> there is a silver lining: 4k does not have fiqhack AI improvements 13:59 <@fredriq> so no create monster spam or similar šŸ˜› 13:59 [hdf-us] [hackm] willisllama (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 26 points, T:149, killed by a serval 13:59 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) killed Medusa, on T:87655 (1 day, 6:01:54) 13:59 heh 14:00 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 14:00 <@fredriq> it has one FIQHack AI improvement, but didn't get anything else 14:00 <@fredriq> monsters can zap helpful wands at each other 14:01 <@fredriq> ĀØfor example, a monster with speed monster will buff up their friends 14:01 [hdf-us] [hackm] willisllama (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 0 points, T:126, killed by a rabbit 14:01 that's cool 14:03 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:8577 14:03 <@fredriq> one day I want to see ais523 ascend a fiqhack game, mostly due to wand balance patch 14:03 <@fredriq> given that it was almost entirely based off his original YANI 14:08 -!- Andrio has joined #hardfought 14:08 -!- mobileuser has joined #hardfought 14:09 -!- eggandhull has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:15 [hdf-us] [nh370] Kevkat (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:30576 14:15 [hdf-us] [nh370] Kevkat (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:30577 14:16 [hdf-us] [hackm] post163 (Yeo Hob Mal Law), 0 points, T:1, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 14:20 -!- docpi has joined #hardfought 14:20 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) killed Yeenoghu, on T:52452 14:20 [hdf-us] [evil] Sioh (Val Cen Fem Neu) eschewed atheism, by dropping 2 garter snake corpses on an altar, on T:3117 (0:54:41) 14:21 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 14988 points, T:12099, killed by a blast of fire exhaled by a red naga 14:24 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) was bestowed with Trollsbane by Mars, on T:52578 14:25 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) murdered his faithful chickatrice, on T:22129 (13:00:24) 14:25 all - the nethack scoreboard had some fixes applied. z-score page renders correctly now 14:26 -!- Andrio has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:26 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) killed Cerberus, on T:33946 14:32 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha), 365924 points, T:34223, killed by a barbed devil, while praying 14:34 -!- shadowrider38 has joined #hardfought 14:35 -!- Sgeo_ has joined #hardfought 14:37 [hdf-us] [evil] Sioh (Val Cen Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (shocking spheres), on T:4158 (1:11:06) 14:37 -!- Sgeo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:38 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:4025 14:39 [hdf-us] [nh370] Kevkat (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) wished for "Magic Marker", got "a magic marker", on T:30629 14:45 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) was bestowed with Mjollnir by The Lady, on T:6908 14:45 -!- Sgeo__ has joined #hardfought 14:48 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:7429 14:48 [hdf-us] [evil] Sioh (Val Cen Fem Neu), 6853 points, T:4503, poisoned by an orcish arrow, while reading a book 14:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:49 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) changed form for the first time, becoming a xorn, on T:53586 14:51 @fredriq I don't blame you for the getobj patch not getting into vanilla - the most I can remember is having to reconcile merge conflicts between your implementation which I ported into xnh and the separate implementation I made as pr 438 14:51 [hdf-eu] [un] muahdib (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) killed the invisible Anaraxis the Black, on T:26235 14:53 [hdf-eu] [nh370] nurdglaw (Rog Orc Fem Cha) averted death (killed by a giant spider), on T:2316 14:53 -!- Sgeo__ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:53 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Leeroy (Ana Inc Mal Cha) consulted the oracle for the first time, on T:2872 14:54 -!- nurdglaw has joined #hardfought 14:56 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed ring of free action", on T:90434 (1 day, 6:58:54) 14:58 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:8753 14:59 [hdf-eu] [nh370] nurdglaw (Rog Orc Fem Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:2363 15:00 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Rog Orc Fem Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:2525 15:00 [hdf-us] [nh370] inlawBiker (Hea Hum Mal Neu) entered Gehennom, on T:30346 15:03 [hdf-us] [nh370] inlawBiker (Hea Hum Mal Neu) attained the rank of Medicus ossium (level 14), on T:30502 15:06 -!- Andrio has joined #hardfought 15:08 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Leeroy (Ana Inc Mal Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:3683 15:09 [hdf-eu] [nh370] nurdglaw (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 1859 points, T:2831, killed by a lizard 15:12 [hdf-eu] [un] muahdib (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) killed the invisible Aphrodite, on T:27708 15:15 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) had a leather studded armor entrusted to her by Mog, on T:91535 (1 day, 7:17:08) 15:16 -!- stoicjin has joined #hardfought 15:17 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) was bestowed with Magicbane by Anhur, on T:15538 15:19 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 15:20 -!- stoicjin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:21 [hdf-eu] [un] muahdib (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) entered a temple, on T:28150 (4:44:17) 15:27 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:14075 15:30 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:31 [hdf-eu] [un] muahdib (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) entered Moria, on T:28704 (4:53:44) 15:31 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) destroyed the invisible tinklebear's ghost, the former Esquire, on T:16813 (2:29:49) 15:32 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered the Bigroom, on T:15048 15:33 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 2213 points, T:3416, killed by a rothe 15:36 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 3536 points, T:3061, killed by a gnome queen 15:37 [hdf-eu] [nh370] spontiff (Hea Gno Mal Neu), 998 points, T:4779, killed by a giant rat 15:38 [hdf-eu] [un] muahdib (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) killed Ballingeary on T:29100 15:41 [hdf-us] [spl] shadowcat (Bar Inf Fem Cha), 1407 points, T:2937, sent to the grave by a hallucinogen-distorted dwarf 15:48 [hdf-us] [spl] shadowcat (Bar Inf Fem Cha), 482 points, T:1090, offed by an echidna, while frozen by a floating eye's gaze 15:49 ais523, here is my read through your blog and feedback mixed in throughout https://diddlydingusdu.de/aisbalancefeedback.mp3 15:52 I'm at T:46500 ish, and still using cream pies to blind myself for umber hulks 15:52 <@shadow_rider> 2 hour review ! 15:52 no blindfolds, no towels 15:52 <@Loggers_VIII> ā€œgee I sure do wonder how Iā€™m gonna spend my afternoonā€ 2 hours of NetHack jargon: 15:52 I guess I have a camera 15:53 <@shadow_rider> loggers listen to it and give me the rundown 15:53 in case you don't know, a) apply the cream pie (to your own face) 15:53 <@Loggers_VIII> I gotchu shadow 15:53 <@Loggers_VIII> I have covid so I donā€™t have anything to do anyway 15:53 <@shadow_rider> D: oh no 15:54 <@shadow_rider> im sorry to hear you got covid but glad to hear you got me? 15:54 u can listen 2 it while doing actual work probably cause its basically a podcast 15:54 <@Loggers_VIII> heh 15:55 <@Loggers_VIII> well anyway here I go 15:58 :/ 16:01 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 529 points, T:1209, killed by a jackal 16:03 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Medusa, on T:19502 16:04 <@fredriq> "so it can be easy to lose track of how time actually plays" if balancing the game interfered with the natural flow of time, I'd be somewhat worried šŸ™‚ 16:05 hah 16:05 QuantumHack 16:06 @Loggers_VIII what did i tell you about getting covid? what did I say? 16:06 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased +3 dragonhide t-shirt of decay", on T:94453 (1 day, 8:08:30) 16:06 and you ignored me :( 16:06 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 1603 points, T:2012, killed by a garter snake, while fainted from lack of food 16:07 krm26, get the spray bottle 16:12 ok this is cool - https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/14qkbxe/this_lego_model_of_the_james_webb_space_telescope/ 16:15 [hdf-us] [hackm] willisllama (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 581 points, T:1299, killed by a sewer rat 16:15 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) had a bone two-handed sword entrusted to her by Odin, on T:20655 (8:22:03) 16:25 <@Loggers_VIII> 25 minutes into this and demo has plugged dnethack a whopping seven trillion times :p 16:26 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) defeated the invisible Kathryn the Ice Queen, on T:95677 (1 day, 8:28:54) 16:27 [hdf-eu] [un] muahdib (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) killed Kars on T:32029 16:27 is that really a surprise tho 16:27 dont worry by that point im just warming up 16:27 it is worth noting that "dnh doesnt really have that problem" for a lot of the problems listed there and worth trying to understand why 16:29 [hdf-us] [spl] nabru (Bar Mer Fem Neu), 668 points, T:1187, sent to the next life by a dwarf, while sleeping 16:30 <@Loggers_VIII> Every time I stop listening discord closes the thing so after this Iā€™m gonna be gone for like an hour and a half but so far I have to say that demo is going goober mode 16:31 <@Loggers_VIII> Iā€™m not sure what that means but Iā€™m sure it means something 16:32 [hdf-us] [nh370] Nunnullus (Kni Hum Mal Law) entered Sokoban, on T:2200 16:37 [hdf-eu] [un] muahdib (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) killed Medusa, on T:32988 16:38 -!- dingotron has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:42 it may have been more interesting to give feedback based on a brevishack pov instead of a dnh one 16:42 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) wished for "magic marker", on T:26818 (4:44:28) 16:46 [hdf-us] [hackm] willisllama (Pri Elf Mal Neu), 924 points, T:1546, killed by a gnome zombie 16:47 <@cpittman> I was just thinking how sad it would be when I abandoned my saddled pony on the 2nd dungeon level... but it got hit by a rock as we were coming down the stairs. 16:49 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Medusa, on T:27155 (4:51:37) 16:52 <@joes5898> ais523: I have a paragraph of feedback for you 16:53 [hdf-eu] [un] muahdib (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) wished for "fixed blessed +2 helm of brilliance", on T:33784 16:54 feedback for what? 16:54 found it 16:58 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Mon Hum Mal Law) became literate by reading the fortune inside a cookie, on T:3893 16:59 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Mon Hum Mal Law), 5131 points, T:3941, killed by a gnome lord 16:59 [hdf-us] [un] Numenorean (Arc Gno Fem Neu) entered Minetown, on T:1234 (0:35:22) 17:00 [hdf-us] [dnh] post163 (Nob Inc Fem Cha), 0 points, T:6, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 17:00 [hdf-us] [un] Numenorean (Arc Gno Fem Neu) entered a shop, on T:1292 (0:36:43) 17:01 [hdf-us] [spl] post163 (Kni Inf Mal Cha), 0 points, T:18, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 17:01 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Kni Hum Fem Law) murdered her faithful pony, on T:25 17:01 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 39 points, T:114, killed by a small mimic 17:01 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Kni Hum Mal Law), 0 points, T:28, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 17:03 [hdf-us] [un] Numenorean (Arc Gno Fem Neu) entered a temple, on T:1331 (0:39:06) 17:03 [hdf-us] [hackm] post163 (Wiz Gia Fem Neu), 121 points, T:362, killed by a bear trap 17:03 [hdf-us] [evil] post163 (Wiz Gno Fem Cha) performed her first genocide (gnomes), on T:1 (0:00:01) 17:06 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:07 "which for most players is a nice quality-of-life improvement that doesn't directly impact the balnace of the game." contains a typo ("balnace") 17:08 yeah i address some of those in my feedback 17:08 -!- b_jonas has joined #hardfought 17:09 [hdf-eu] [un] muahdib (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) wished for "fixed +2 reflecting dragon scale mail", on T:34200 17:12 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Client closed] 17:14 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) polymorphed her first item, on T:48809 17:26 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:6432 17:27 [hdf-us] [hackm] willisllama (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 144 points, T:442, killed by a jackal 17:32 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Hum Fem Neu), 27677 points, T:16012, killed by a leocrotta 17:34 [hdf-us] [evil] post163 (Wiz Gno Fem Cha), 0 points, T:1, killed by a scroll of genocide 17:34 "many items are more effective when blessed (or for potions, cursed)" which potions? I can only think of gain level 17:35 i think scrolls were maybe meant to be thought of 17:37 invis and unholy water 17:37 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:56233 17:37 cursed invis isn't much use early on 17:38 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:56312 17:39 i mean neither is cursed gain level? 17:39 idk what the context is so 17:41 it's potentially an escape item 17:42 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 17:43 -!- dingotron has joined #hardfought 17:43 especially in op neosoko 17:44 does it even work there 17:48 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) murdered her faithful dwarf lady, on T:56851 17:48 dont think it does 17:49 or 17:49 idk what you are referring to 17:51 c!ogl 17:52 <@fredriq> @demo9 your remarks wrt Val-Dwa made me curious enough to look at ais523's presence on scoreboard. There is 1 registered non-valk asc there (gnomish wizard), so you likely have valid points wrt designing game balance around valks 17:52 <@fredriq> However, with that being said, the remarks are still valid when taking in relation to each other; the issue is that a fix that would look OK for valks would likely make the game too difficult for other roles+races 17:53 i look at it at some point towards the end of teh recording 17:53 <@fredriq> (And yeah, agreed wrt the Sokoban change being a "bug fix" is utter nonsense. Clearly, the levels were designed to go upwards for a reason, if they were meant to become harder, they'd have downstairs instead) 17:54 <@fredriq> but I kinda feel that I have made my 3.6 complaints enough times at this point 17:54 <@fredriq> for what it's worth, I'd much rather play 3.4.3-hdf over 3.6+ generally 17:55 yeah whether or not it was a bug fix isn't really relevant to the points being made in the blog, which kind of reinforces the points being made 17:55 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 6587 points, T:8703, killed by a hallucinogen-distorted jaguar 17:56 <@Loggers_VIII> Ok I finished demo podcast 17:57 <@Loggers_VIII> Iā€™m gonna condense my seven pages of notes on his waffling to something more concise so stay turned for that I guess if you donā€™t have 2 hours to spend listening 17:58 :) 17:58 <@fredriq> Demo: something you never really explain in the podcast is that you say that you dislike the new gold gen, but not really the reason why 17:58 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58 <@fredriq> your other remarks imply that you think the game generats too much gold, which I agree with ... so what's wrong with the change gold gen? since it reduces it 17:58 it gets into a bigger problem of having stuff to spend the gold on 17:58 GOLD! 17:59 which is where shopkeeper services come in 17:59 * docpi blinks 17:59 Sorry, I was absent for a moment there. Did I miss something? 17:59 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 18:00 <@fredriq> Demo: also, ais523 is overestimating wand of death chance I think 18:00 <@fredriq> he's reading rnd_offensive_item but it doesn't tell the full story 18:00 <@shadow_rider> @Loggers_VIII hero 18:00 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 893 points, T:2999, killed by a pony 18:00 <@fredriq> not all monsters get random offensive items 18:04 [hdf-us] [un] Numenorean (Arc Gno Fem Neu) hit with a wielded weapon for the first time, on T:3237 (1:28:26) 18:05 <@fredriq> the chance of a monster getting a wand of death, assuming they are difficulty 8+ is x/2625 where x is their generated experience level. 18:06 <@fredriq> !tell ais523 The chance of a monster getting a wand of death, assuming they are difficulty 8+ is x/2625 where x is their generated experience level. This assumes a monster would be able to use it in the first place. I do think the difficulty level where they can get it should be increased, but you are overestimating the chance of deathwands being given to monsters 18:06 ais523 shall be duly informed at the first opportunity, @fredriq. 18:07 <@fredriq> I wonder 18:07 <@fredriq> @v?soldier 18:07 soldier (@) | Lvl: 6 | Diff: 8 | Spd: 10 | Res: none | Confer: nothing | MR: 0 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 10 | Atk: 1d8 weapon physical | Align: -2 | genocidable, omnivore, nopoly, stalker, infravis 18:07 <@fredriq> yeah that is probably why 18:07 <@fredriq> I figured that the difficulty requirement was probably based off soldier difficulty level 18:07 [hdf-us] [ndnh] bleeko (Bar Ent Mal Neu) entered the adventure town for the first time, on T:3098 18:07 <@fredriq> And they do seem to be difficulty 8, so... 18:08 @fredriq: I'm here 18:08 ais523: Message from @fredriq at 2023-07-05 18:06 EDT: The chance of a monster getting a wand of death, assuming they are difficulty 8+ is x/2625 where x is their generated experience level. This assumes a monster would be able to use it in the first place. I do think the difficulty level where they can get it should be increased, but you are overestimating the chance of deathwands being given to monsters 18:08 <@fredriq> ohh I didn't know that, I can't see that from this side 18:08 <@fredriq> sorry 18:08 I know, that's why I told you 18:08 <@fredriq> Right šŸ˜› 18:09 fwiw, the reason why Sokoban goes upwards is so that the holes send you backwards rather than forwards 18:09 <@fredriq> level teleporters haven't been invented yet 18:09 <@fredriq> Also iirc, soldiers have an additional 1/13 check they need to pass, but that obviously doesn't apply to other monsters 18:11 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 4411 points, T:5279, killed by a bolt of cold 18:11 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (master mind flayers), on T:49777 18:12 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) made his first wish - "holy greased bag of holding", got "a greased bag", on T:20456 18:15 [hdf-us] [un] Numenorean (Arc Gno Fem Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:3692 (1:39:05) 18:15 A wise choice, Grasshopper. 18:15 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 144 points, T:859, killed by a hobgoblin 18:17 <@fredriq> power outage, moved onto my phone 18:17 <@fredriq> the entire block, not just our house 18:18 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) made her first wish - "blessed +2 dragonbane", on T:20588 (3:15:34) 18:18 the first thing I check in a power outage is usually whether it's affecting just the outlet I was using or, e.g., the electric lights in my house; but the second thing is whether the lights in other nearby houses are on 18:19 (this is harder to check in the daytime, I guess ā€“ but I'd be less likely to notice a power outage then because I'm often asleep) 18:20 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 256 points, T:1145, killed by a little dog 18:20 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 1341 points, T:1783, killed by a giant ant 18:22 [hdf-eu] [nh370] nurdglaw (Rog Orc Fem Cha) became literate by engraving "Elbereth", on T:3128 18:25 <@fredriq> apparently it's affecting the entire quarter, including stuff like streetlights etc. Estimated to be resolved at 02:30 (2h5min from now) 18:26 Demo: I'm going to listen to your feedback now, but a 2-hour mp3 file is going to take around 2 hours to listen to, probably more because I might not get through all of it in one go 18:26 <@Loggers_VIII> ok here's a pastebin about the demo thing for anyone who wants it 18:26 <@Loggers_VIII> https://pastebin.com/CQgGT1dW 18:26 <@fredriq> That's.. unusually long, I don't think I've dealt with any outages lasting more than a few minutes for several years 18:27 <@fredriq> ais523: maybe the pastebin is better? 18:27 it's a lot shorter, at least :-) 18:27 hahaha 18:27 but I think I should probably listen to the original source for fairness 18:29 <@fredriq> @Loggers_VIII fwiw I do think demo raises a valid concern wrt valk dwa having far fewer issues than many other roles+races 18:29 sorry but if half the text isn't about dnethack then it isnt a very accurate summary 18:29 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) completed Sokoban, acquiring an amulet of magic resistance, on T:22572 (3:26:57) 18:29 @fredriq: re val-dwa, I also have taken a Ranger to Gehennom 18:29 <@fredriq> for example, consider ais523's Astral concerns 18:30 <@Loggers_VIII> @fredriq yeah I just never really saw a point where the fact that ais played dwa Val actually mattered 18:30 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) made her first wish - "blessed fixed platinum yendorian express card", got "a credit card named the Platinum Yendorian Express Card", on T:50187 18:30 <@Loggers_VIII> Oh donā€™t delude yourself every character is homogenous by astral :p 18:30 <@fredriq> a dwarven valk has a) more HP, b) effectively 2x HP and double HP regen due to how oof works 18:30 it was a toss up - PYEC or a towel 18:30 T:50000+ and still no blindfold, towel 18:30 <@Loggers_VIII> Or you could just drain yourself to level one and regain it while wielding ogresmasher to get that max hp boost 18:31 <@fredriq> so if he struggled w/o conflict while heading for the first altar, he'd probably have splatted if playing almost literally anything else 18:31 <@Loggers_VIII> Standard mid to late game strategy 18:31 <@Loggers_VIII> I heavily disagree 18:32 <@fredriq> do you typically carry MKoT/oof in astral? 18:32 <@Loggers_VIII> You can get any melee class close to the hp of a dwa val if you just play the game with it in mind 18:32 <@fredriq> half physical damage is a ridiculous extrinsic 18:32 <@fredriq> it trumps almost every other trinsic in the game other than MR and reflection 18:32 <@Loggers_VIII> Half phys is pretty crazy but you usually are taking damage from magic missiles on astral, no? Or does vanilla make mr totally negate that 18:33 <@fredriq> (in fact I would rather have halfphy over reflection) 18:33 <@Loggers_VIII> Reflection is overrated yea 18:33 <@fredriq> no, magic missile does like no damage 18:33 ais523 are you aware of any more commits for 3.7 dropping in the next few hours? I ask because I'm planning on updaing 370-hdf tonight 18:33 <@Loggers_VIII> Huh. What do people even take damage from on astral lol 18:33 <@Loggers_VIII> Genuine question 18:33 K2: not aware of any such, but I wouldn't expect to be if there were 18:33 <@fredriq> priests, player monsters, random other shit 18:33 priest spells maybe? geysers? 18:33 <@fredriq> Riders hurt a lot too 18:33 ok thanks 18:33 <@fredriq> lol geysers 18:34 <@fredriq> Demo: outside dnh, geyser is completely harmless 18:34 <@Loggers_VIII> Riders hurt but they have like no HP you donā€™t need to be a dwa val to absolutely annihilate them 18:34 <@Loggers_VIII> Geyser is not harmless, isnā€™t it like a bunch of phys damage 18:34 <@fredriq> the most annoying priest spell in vanIlla is summon insects 18:34 i thought it hit pretty hard 18:34 <@fredriq> not because the insects are particularly dangerous 18:34 <@fredriq> but because they are in the way 18:35 that can actually be a boon sometimes fiq 18:35 <@Loggers_VIII> Yeah ants are good idk what you mean 18:35 <@fredriq> not when Riders can displace monsters 18:35 <@Loggers_VIII> Would you rather be surrounded by clerics and angels or ants 18:35 weak insects can sometimes become a buffer between you and some heavy hitters, give you some breathing room 18:35 hmm geyser is said to be 8d6 on the wiki and resisted by half phys 18:35 of course not for the riders 18:35 <@Loggers_VIII> But youā€™re going to be surrounded anyway on astral, might as well have it be by the weak lil guys 18:36 ^ this 18:36 <@fredriq> yeah K2, if you are bogged down by a million insects, Riders will become annoying 18:36 <@fredriq> due to the stun 18:36 <@Loggers_VIII> Just donā€™t get hit lol 18:36 <@fredriq> or worse if Death is involved 18:36 <@shadow_rider> lol this conversation 18:36 <@fredriq> angels do like no damage 18:37 <@fredriq> priests do hurt, yes 18:37 <@Loggers_VIII> Maybe I need to play vanilla againā€¦ 18:37 yeah same lol 18:37 <@shadow_rider> i think i tend to agree with loggers more 18:37 <@shadow_rider> geyser does real damage 18:37 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Kni Hum Mal Law), 2 points, T:26, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 18:37 <@shadow_rider> summon insects helps out 18:37 <@fredriq> I thought the most damaging spell priests had was open wounds 18:38 <@fredriq> in vanilla I mean 18:38 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "marker", got "a magic marker", on T:22774 18:38 <@fredriq> was geyser buffed at some point? 18:38 open wounds scales with xlvl of monster where as geyser is a fixed damage amount 18:39 <@Loggers_VIII> Oh btw demo a minor thing, you mentioned guaranteed enchanted gear from unique monsters in dnh in your recording, in vanilla the quest leaders now have really nice enchanted gear too. +5 weapons and armor and stuff. Even a +6 robe on the grand master. Itā€™s a negligible thing since you still have to kill your leader for it but I thought it was worth mentioning 18:39 so high priest or master kaen open wounds is :( but a lower level priest it might not be as dangerous as geyser? not sure 18:39 <@fredriq> and how highlevel do you think Astral priests typically are 18:39 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) killed Orcus, on T:59377 18:39 13? 18:39 <@fredriq> pretty sure even regular priests hurt more with open wounds 18:39 [hdf-us] [nh370] masterofpi (Bar Orc Mal Cha) killed Medusa, on T:26178 18:39 <@fredriq> over geyser 18:39 [hdf-us] [spl] post163 (Dra Elf Mal Neu), 0 points, T:76, slipped while mounting a saddled baby blue dragon 18:39 <@Loggers_VIII> geyser still hurts tho 18:39 aren't priests like level 11 in minetown or so? 18:39 [hdf-us] [hackm] post163 (Yeo Hum Mal Neu), 60 points, T:11, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 18:40 so 6d6 open wounds vs 8d6 geyser? 18:40 <@fredriq> yeah but astral is way higher depth 18:40 yeah idk what level they gen at there 18:40 <@fredriq> so they'd be level 18 I think? 18:40 <@fredriq> @v?aligned priest 18:40 No such monster. 18:40 [hdf-us] [un] post163 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 0 points, T:68, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 18:40 <@fredriq> um 18:40 rip 18:40 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) performed her first genocide (class @), on T:1 18:40 <@fredriq> what is the mon name 18:40 <@shadow_rider> but open wounds isnā€™t cast very much by normal priests 18:40 <@fredriq> @v?priest 18:40 priest (@) | Lvl: 12 | Diff: 15 | Spd: 12 | Res: shock | Confer: nothing | MR: 50 | Gen: special | AC: 10 | Atk: 4d10 weapon physical, 1d4 kick physical, 0d0 cast clerical | Align: 0 | omnivore, nopoly, infravis 18:40 <@Loggers_VIII> @v?aligned cleric 18:40 aligned cleric (@) | Lvl: 12 | Diff: 15 | Spd: 12 | Res: shock | Confer: nothing | MR: 50 | Gen: special | AC: 10 | Atk: 4d10 weapon physical, 1d4 kick physical, 0d0 cast clerical | Align: 0 | omnivore, nopoly, infravis 18:40 <@shadow_rider> at least in my experience 18:40 <@Loggers_VIII> theyā€™re clerics in 3.7 18:41 <@fredriq> yeah they'd be xl18 18:41 <@shadow_rider> itā€™s mostly geyser 18:41 <@fredriq> in astral 18:41 <@fredriq> @shadow_rider that's possible, but open wounds hurt more 18:41 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 18:41 <@fredriq> ai is just dumb 18:41 18 seems right 18:41 so open wounds would be worse 18:42 <@shadow_rider> ā€œBecause of the way monsters select their spells, the relative frequency of this spell decreases as the monster's level increases from 1 to 14, but the relative frequency increases as the monster's level increases from 14 to 49.[2] Thus, this spell is a favorite of high-level clerical spellcasting monsters (including Master Kaen and high priests).ā€ 18:42 <@shadow_rider> so basically priests are stupid 18:42 <@shadow_rider> and cast worse spells than they could be 18:42 Demo: with respect to wizard versus valk backtracking, that's one of the things I was specifically testing in my wizard game 18:42 <@fredriq> I mean would you rather have fiqhack ai 18:42 I was playing the wizard as a wizard, spamming force bolt at the main attack 18:42 <@fredriq> :p 18:42 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) attained the rank of Traveler (level 14), on T:23168 18:42 has 37 made wizard early game more castable like some other variants do? 18:42 it played *very* similarly ā€“ the main difference was that it was easier to accidentally drive the wizard deeper than the point at which backtracking was safe 18:43 I'm not sure; it sort of felt like it had, but that may be unfamiliarity 18:43 <@shadow_rider> god no 18:43 I levelled up to around xlvl 6 very quickly in order to get enough Pw 18:43 <@fredriq> I'd be happy to submit patches that make the vanilla AI better šŸ™‚ šŸ™‚ šŸ™‚ 18:43 and I defer to the opinions of players who have more of an idea of what wizard early-game casting is like 18:44 <@Loggers_VIII> Wizard early game is ezpz 18:44 <@Loggers_VIII> zap at stuff and hit anything else 18:44 <@fredriq> never liked earlygame wiz 18:44 @fredriq: my experience with AI patches is that if you try to add them, even not expecting the balance to change, everything goes horribly wrong in an unexpected way 18:44 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed ring of teleport control", got "a copper ring", on T:23241 18:44 <@fredriq> if I select wiz, I want to cast 18:44 <@fredriq> not play a really shitty melee role 18:44 e.g. they contain hidden code that makes your pets choke to death 18:44 <@fredriq> if I wanted that, I'd have selected caveman 18:45 <@Loggers_VIII> pff 18:45 <@shadow_rider> real 18:45 <@fredriq> ais523: you should've seen initial fiqhack versions 18:45 <@shadow_rider> my honest take is that casting is vanilla is just plain bad 18:45 <@fredriq> monsters really, really loved wands of create monster 18:45 <@shadow_rider> would need a complete revamp to make it balanced or fair 18:46 oh wow, are the Riders pathing crow-flies on Astral in vanilla? 18:46 i remember those days fiq 18:46 I am trying a stupid experiment in wizmode 18:46 <@fredriq> and I grossly underestimated how common those things are 18:46 <@Loggers_VIII> Bad as in badly designed or bad as in not powerful 18:46 <@fredriq> ais523: vanilla hasn't learned how to dijkstra yet afaik 18:46 i want an ambitious variant to attempt to implement an experience sort of similar to noita wand building but with "spell mixing" casting 18:46 <@shadow_rider> badly designed 18:46 <@Loggers_VIII> Hard agree 18:46 actually I can't remember how NH4 monster pathing works 18:46 <@Loggers_VIII> omg noita nethack 18:46 did I fix that? 18:47 <@fredriq> yes 18:47 <@fredriq> you adapted player travel 18:47 <@shadow_rider> did you fix it? 18:47 <@fredriq> which is basically dijkstra but implemented weirdly 18:47 <@shadow_rider> i remember bringing that up from last junethack 18:47 <@shadow_rider> for the riders 18:48 <@fredriq> @shadow_rider me? I haven't touched pathfinding itself at all, but I've made better use of it in cases like dragon ai 18:48 man, "basically dijkstra but implemented weirdly" describes so much "real world" code 18:48 <@fredriq> oh sis ok 18:48 <@fredriq> *ais 18:48 <@shadow_rider> no in nh4 i mentioned that the riders seem to have some third sense of where you are on the map at all times and will beeline directly for you 18:48 <@shadow_rider> this was last year 18:49 <@fredriq> @shadow_rider that might be a consequence of better pathfinding 18:49 multiple people have reported that and I have no idea why it happens 18:49 <@fredriq> can riders sense you? 18:49 gnollhack has really good pet following code 18:49 <@shadow_rider> i mean better pathfinding is fine but they shouldnt know where you are without reason 18:49 <@fredriq> in fiqhack they definitely can but I don't think they can in nh4 18:49 <@fredriq> beyond regular sight 18:50 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) found the Platinum Yendorian Express Card on the floor, on T:23662 18:50 I think they have see invis but nothing else relevant 18:50 <@fredriq> (the reason they can sense you in fiqhack is because the Amulet confers slotless aggravate monster) 18:50 my theory was that monsters were casting "aggravate" but astral's monster mix isn't very conducive to that, most of the spellcasters were clerical 18:51 <@fredriq> archons use arcane casting 18:51 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed the Master of Thieves, on T:23739 18:51 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:23741 18:51 <@fredriq> and liches, which can generate on astral if not genocided afaik 18:51 [hdf-us] [ndnh] KaiHerd (Bar Hum Mal Cha), 1630 points, T:1230, killed by a soldier mummy 18:52 <@fredriq> also isn't aggravate on both the arcane and clerical list? 18:52 <@fredriq> I know some mspells are in both 18:52 <@Loggers_VIII> Pretty sure aggravate is just arcsnet 18:52 <@Loggers_VIII> *arcane holy shit 18:52 <@fredriq> ok 18:52 <@shadow_rider> not clerical 18:53 does nethack4 improve rider pathfinding? 18:53 <@fredriq> yes, indirectly 18:53 all 3 of them went to me much quicker in nh4 than they did in 3.6.6 (I don't know about 3.4.3) 18:53 <@fredriq> nh4 improves all monster pathfinding 18:54 <@fredriq> if a player is making noise 18:54 <@fredriq> monsters in nh4 will investigate 18:54 <@shadow_rider> noisytoot it is a known issue 18:54 <@shadow_rider> its not supposed to be so severe 18:55 <@fredriq> are you sure about that? 18:55 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) performed his first genocide (class L), on T:24437 18:55 <@fredriq> because I'm fairly sure this isn't a bug 18:55 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55 <@fredriq> just a natural side effect of AI pathfind changes 18:55 OK, so my conclusion from this is that people thinking "the riders can find me really easily in NH4" is a sort of modified variant paranoia; people are assuming the riders are better at *sensing* them, but the case is actually that the riders are better at *pathing to* them 18:55 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 18:55 <@fredriq> yeah that's what I keep saying lol 18:55 I don't think anything was casting aggravate 18:56 <@shadow_rider> i played like 15 nh4 games last tournament 18:56 <@shadow_rider> aggravate monster was not being cast 18:56 <@shadow_rider> and yet all 3 abandon their chambers to chase me every time 18:56 <@fredriq> @shadow_rider the thing is 18:56 maybe its like pacman 18:56 the only arcane caster on the level was my pet 18:57 <@fredriq> monsters can pathfind better, so if they already know where you are 18:57 <@fredriq> they'll not lose sight of you, and they pathfind better 18:57 <@shadow_rider> from what ais told me last year they arent supposed to know where you are tho 18:57 <@fredriq> if you go out of sight from a monster, it will pathfind to your last known spot 18:57 <@shadow_rider> at least not without something else happening 18:58 <@Loggers_VIII> But from what is being described riders are pathing to players theyā€™ve never seen 18:58 [hdf-us] [nh370] masterofpi (Bar Orc Mal Cha), 230384 points, T:26257, drowned in a shallow sea 18:58 <@shadow_rider> ^ 18:58 <@fredriq> there is also the thing I mentioned wrt noise, but I don't entirely recall how it works 18:58 would be interesting to have a visualisation of the rider's muxy in wizmode 18:58 to see what the riders are thinking 18:58 * riders' muxy 18:58 <@fredriq> striking might make enough noise for monsters to get curious 18:59 <@Loggers_VIII> Unless a player somehow manages to be seen by every single rider before going to one altar I donā€™t think the better path finding is the only thing at play. The riders must be using hacks 18:59 <@shadow_rider> if ais says its not an issue thats fine but from what im experiencing its not intended 18:59 <@fredriq> meaning that if you zap down a door with striking, you might cause some undesirable attention 18:59 would be epic if there were grenades and you could arm one and teleport it to explode somewhere random and lure the riders there 19:00 <@shadow_rider> these are all possibilities but do not explain away the games where i practically have not left my starting place and they all figure out where i am 19:00 I could sense the riders with monster detection but they should not have been able to see me 19:00 <@fredriq> saves are... well, saved 19:00 <@fredriq> could always check it out with replaymode 19:00 Demo: I think that actually would work in NH4 if grenades existed 19:00 <@Loggers_VIII> slashem4 19:00 <@fredriq> Demo: should work 19:01 since I only visisted one altar but encountered all 3 riders 19:01 [hdf-eu] [nh370] nurdglaw (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 2551 points, T:5677, killed by a white unicorn 19:01 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) found Grimtooth carried by a monster, on T:60937 19:01 you could probably tele a pet shocking sphere 19:01 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered Gehennom, on T:24637 19:01 well, flaming sphere would be most useful 19:01 i dont know if that would make noise. i know explosions set mux and muy 19:01 <@Loggers_VIII> Teleport a land mine 19:02 riders can fly 19:02 it sounds like if you sent in a gas spore that it wouldnt even get hit by the guys in nh4 19:02 i think spheres exploding does actually make noise 19:02 <@fredriq> just wear conflict 19:02 <@fredriq> it suppresses anti-stupidity checks 19:02 <@Loggers_VIII> I mean, spheres exploding wakes monsters so would be weird if it didnā€™t make noise 19:02 <@fredriq> even beyond the standard conflict range 19:02 <@fredriq> this is dumb 19:03 <@shadow_rider> yeah this strategy is bad 19:03 <@shadow_rider> knowing my luck itll teleport two squares away and explode 19:04 <@fredriq> even if you somehow pulled it off 19:04 <@fredriq> it'd do basically nothing 19:04 <@fredriq> since astral isn't exactly huge 19:04 Demo: against nymphs in the early game, nowadays I oneshot them with attack wands 19:04 -!- fakepass has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04 Excalibur is surprisingly non-useful against them, they generally steal it :-D 19:05 <@fredriq> 3.7 removes formal ID upon nymph steal 19:05 <@fredriq> making nymphs way more dangerous 19:05 like, if they steal an item, and you steal it back, it gets un-formal-IDEd? 19:05 <@fredriq> yes 19:05 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Juiblex, on T:25476 19:05 I can see the reasoning flavourwise, but am not convinced nymphs needed byffing 19:05 * buffing 19:05 maybe thats why i hate them so much because i think i can one shot them with excal and then find out otherwise :( 19:05 <@fredriq> neither am I 19:06 <@fredriq> I always thought to myself 19:06 <@fredriq> man I wishedd nethack had more sources of unID beyond amnesia 19:06 ā€¦people are going to exploit this to unidentify items to make them stack with other unidentified items, aren't they/ 19:06 un-IDing on item stealing is stupid 19:06 <@fredriq> it is good to know that 3.7 has me covered 19:06 I hate unID and amnesia 19:06 <@shadow_rider> lol ais 19:07 I am finally getting into the mind of the NetHack community :-D 19:07 <@shadow_rider> better get your idea in vanilla quick 19:07 items remain IDed if you just drop them, why should they be unIDed when stolen by a nymph? 19:08 <@fredriq> ask patr (iirc) 19:08 clearly they need to unID whenever they're moved from the square, and if a different item gets dropped on the same square out of your sight, it should have the previous item's ID status (incorrectly) 19:08 another reason to not play 3.7 19:08 <@fredriq> btw ais523, I think any change to gehennom is a lost cause in vanilla 19:08 <@fredriq> because vanilla DT considers it sacred 19:09 Demo: the impression I'm getting from your feedback so far is that you think that I'm moving in the right direction, but you'd prefer a game which is very far from vanilla in that direction whereas I'm suggesting only small changes 19:09 also, I have the suspicion that even what I have here, which is minor by variant standards but big by vanilla standards, may be hard to get devteam consensus on 19:09 <@fredriq> demo seems to be under the belief that nethack vanilla isn't deep enough 19:10 <@fredriq> considering what you typically hear said about nethack... 19:10 or only play wizards and startscum for a blessed scroll of genocide and use it to genocide n on turn 1 19:11 <@shadow_rider> people who play variants tend to think vanilla is boring 19:11 [hdf-us] [nh370] post163 (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 0 points, T:1, killed by a scroll of genocide 19:11 <@fredriq> I don't think that 19:11 <@fredriq> then again, fiqhack isn't exactly the pinnacle of adding content 19:11 <@fredriq> since it has like... 2-3 new items and monsters 19:11 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) bribed Asmodeus with 290 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:26406 19:12 <@fredriq> over the course of its many years of development 19:12 wonder potions are my favorite thing in fiqhack probably 19:12 <@Loggers_VIII> dnh is kind of an extreme example of a variant, too 19:12 <@Loggers_VIII> thereā€™s just so much shit in it 19:12 <@fredriq> hmm weird 19:13 <@fredriq> power came back for a split-second 19:13 @fredriq fiqhack has magic chests right? i cant remember 19:13 <@fredriq> then it died again 19:13 <@fredriq> yes 19:13 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) bribed Baalzebub with 880 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:26618 19:13 and are the chests considered an object you can move around or furniture like a throne? 19:13 <@fredriq> also I suspect you could skip like 80% of dnh content 19:13 they are furniture in every implementation i've seen outside of dnh 19:14 <@fredriq> and still do just fine 19:14 it's getting much closer to that 19:14 <@fredriq> in fact I suspect that doing so is optimal gameplay 19:14 i wanna get a video guide route put together for beginner barb "avoid all the shit you dont need to get involved with" run 19:14 <@fredriq> since it lowers risk of random bs killing you 19:14 where the route is determined by avoiding dangerous things and also avoiding complex mechanics 19:15 <@fredriq> I liked old dnh where I could just skip the votd barriers 19:15 <@fredriq> that was fun šŸ˜› 19:15 <@fredriq> old binder allowed a ton of silly shenanigans 19:16 one of the coolest things in fiqhack imo is that certain monsters can take a spellbook, read it, and learn that spell and then cast it 19:16 <@fredriq> thought travel that worked on the planes and to skip votd barriers, hook in the sky that worked with the Amulet, marionette to jump across Air in like 3 turns 19:17 see those are way more fun balance issues than BUC knownness and item stacking :P 19:17 'why is that gnomish wizard picking up that spell of 'finger of death'?' 19:17 K2 so long as it accounts for monster intelligence, rather than letting them learn it automatically 19:17 *spellbook 19:17 <@fredriq> K2: fiqhack did a lot to improve pet usability, that was part of that 19:17 yup i remember 19:17 its been awhile since i ascended fiqhack but i remember 19:17 also promotes importance of locked containers 19:17 <@Loggers_VIII> all gnomish wizards in evil start with spell books of fuck you 19:18 hahahah 19:18 <@fredriq> fwiw I don't think a gnomish wizard can use FoD 19:18 <@fredriq> too lowlevel 19:18 heya Grasshopper 19:18 that would be a nice touch, higher chancees of monster carrying spellbooks 19:18 <@fredriq> they're like xl2 19:18 hiya K2 19:19 <@fredriq> Grasshoppers: fiqhack gives monsters random spells based on xl and spell skills of the monster. Sometimes they also get the spellbook 19:19 fredriq - cool 19:19 anyway, if I can't get these changes past the devteam, the next-best option is probably to fix the remaining blocking bugs in NetHack4 4.3.0, release it, and then make the changes for NetHack4 4.4.0 19:19 <@fredriq> I did this for flavour reasons but I think it inadvertly became a remarkably good way to balance spellbook gen 19:20 ais523 nice 19:20 -!- dingotron has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:20 but the "fix the remaining blocking bugs" is the hard part 19:20 there is a bug with timer migration which is fundamentally almost impossible to fix and I forget what even causes it nowadays 19:20 you can work around it by figuring out which level the timer is on and going there at the point it expires 19:20 but players shouldn't have to do that 19:21 <@fredriq> ais523: my takeaway from your post + demo's comments is that the best thing you could probably do atm (least controversial with biggest gain) is overhauling harmful pots 19:21 I have a feeling that some of them are unchanged since Hack 19:22 "Excuse me. Um, hello? Excuse me please, are you a harmful pot?" - *growling noises* 19:22 <@fredriq> the game looked very different back then 19:22 changing an entire item class that extensively feels like it ought to be controversial, at least within the devteam, but I might try to focus on tjust that 19:22 doesn't hook in the sky still work with the amulet? 19:23 I have the suspicion that lots of dnh content is intended to be ignorable 19:23 <@fredriq> ais523: also it is probably worth considering bumping /oD difficulty, but I think that might have unintended consequuences wrt soldiers 19:23 monster potion hit from 1.3d for sickness pot https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389212978030968832/1126292342161289226/image.png 19:23 I think the proper fix may be to increase soldier difficulty? 19:23 wands of cold are not a viable method of crossing water because the risk of something zapping fire at you and drowning you is too high (any non-zero risk of that is too high) 19:23 they seem intended to be a castle/ludios-depth monster 19:24 rather than a sokoband-depth monster 19:24 <@fredriq> do't nethack vanilla have the weird monstr system still? 19:24 Noisytoot: that actually happened in my 3.6 ascension 19:24 <@fredriq> where difficulty is generated dynamically 19:24 it is part of the reason that all but one of my potions of full healing got diluted into water 19:24 although, typoing into water was a much bigger part of that 19:24 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:28192 19:24 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:28194 19:24 @fredriq: I think it's hardcoded nowadays 19:24 Yes, Noisytoot, hence that mind flayer on level 6 of the Mines in my current game. 19:25 but I can't remember, it's easy to get variants and versions mixed up 19:25 what does crossing water have to do with a minesflayer? 19:25 While I was Xp: 19. 19:25 <@fredriq> iirc I made a pr to fix minesflayers a very long time ago... 19:25 in vanilla I once bypassed a minesflayer by giving it a bow and some arrows 19:25 <@fredriq> it was probably ignored 19:25 Noisytoot, you ask a whale. 19:25 it was quite happy to shoot at me as I walked past, which I greatly preferred to having my brain eaten 19:25 later I killed it with a scroll of stinking cloud 19:26 -!- Sgeo_ has joined #hardfought 19:26 ais523, sleeping spell from a distance, then two hits? 19:26 -!- Sgeo_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26 That is how I got rid of the one in the Mine. 19:27 <@shadow_rider> @Loggers_VIII lmao i just read your demo summary 19:27 <@shadow_rider> that was not what i was expecting 19:27 <@fredriq> @shadow_rider I mean the summary isn't wrong 19:27 <@fredriq> lol 19:27 <@shadow_rider> true 19:27 docpi: I didn't have it that game, but that should also work 19:27 <@fredriq> "try dnh" 19:28 <@shadow_rider> demos takes was expected, i wasnt expecting loggers to add his own jabs and input 19:28 <@fredriq> in fairness I think vanilla DT ought to try variants at least once 19:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined #hardfought 19:28 <@fredriq> to see how different variants go about solving perceived issues 19:28 I always use confused gold detection over cursed gold detection 19:28 <@shadow_rider> yeah 19:28 i suggested to ais523 that he should try evilhack 19:28 <@shadow_rider> i wonder how much experience each of the dev team has in terms of playing the game 19:28 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Fem Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:10609 (5:14:08) 19:29 -!- shadowrider38 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:29 I think most devteam members have played it, and probably ascended, but maybe not recently 19:29 * docpi once more throws an unapproving leer at the devteam for having allowed 3.6 to happen. 19:29 -!- Sgeo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:29 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Orcus, on T:28985 19:29 docpi you're in a very small minority 19:29 docpi: at the time everyone wanted a new version to be released 19:30 That makes me special, K2. Yay! 19:30 my assessment of 3.6 and 3.7 is "many of these changes are improvements in the abstract, but haven't been balanced around" 19:30 yay lol 19:30 I understand, ais523, but why with all those horrible degenerations? 19:30 <@shadow_rider> whats the issue with 3.6? 19:30 3.6 is good, 3.7 is bad (except some things like paranoid water) 19:30 <@fredriq> K2: I still prefer 3.4.3 to this day generally over 3.6 19:30 i like 3.6 19:31 can monsters use containers in 3.6 or is that 3.7? 19:31 fiq i know 19:31 not everything about 3.7 (so far) I like 19:31 Thank you, fredriq. 19:31 it's 3.7, isn't it 19:31 <@fredriq> can't judge 3.7, haven't played 19:31 that's 3.7 19:31 docpi: if you like, you can give me a list of specific changes in 3.6 that you think are terrible; the most likely outcome is that I will agree with you, but lack the political power within the DevTeam to do anything about it 19:31 <@fredriq> I do like many 3.6 changes 19:31 in 3.7, lck your boxes 19:31 lock 19:31 imo 3.7 is a mixed bag - some of the changes i like, some i dont 19:31 <@fredriq> but there are also changes that I don't like at all 19:31 fwiw I consider 3.7 superior to 3.6, even though I don't agree with everything 19:31 <@shadow_rider> someone explain why they dont like 3.6 19:31 <@shadow_rider> pls 19:31 i like 3.6 19:32 <@Loggers_VIII> Because they are used to 3.6 19:32 <@shadow_rider> im in an argumentative mood 19:32 <@shadow_rider> :P 19:32 because its not 3.4.3 19:32 :) 19:32 I would, shadow_rider, but I am tired. 19:32 <@Loggers_VIII> Used to 3.4.3 I mean 19:32 <@shadow_rider> booo 19:32 <@Loggers_VIII> cop out alert 19:32 primarily bcos 3.6.7 not 343 19:32 <@Loggers_VIII> I was gonna go to bed but this woke me right up 19:32 the problem with vanilla is that it has to be vanilla. there are expectations that are had of it. i have no idea what those are but i feel like the dt feels a certain pressure to meet those expectations that nobody really even fully understands 19:32 although I do like 3.4.3's alchemy (where you can get lots of full healing potions with less farming than in 3.6) 19:32 3.4.3 is a game where you have to make your own fun, I think ā€“ it is somewhat exploitable and there are many overly powerful strategies, but nothing says that you have to use them 19:33 i like slashem better than 343 because there is even more fun to be made 19:33 3.4.3 + "random conduct ais523 made up on the spur of the moment" is fun even playing exclusively valk 19:33 in 3.7 polymorphing/ polypiling has been severely nerfed' 19:33 people might not realise it, but it has 19:34 is this an indirect nerf, or changes to the mechanic itself? 19:34 because to drop individual stacks of items, you MUST individually name each and every stack 19:34 I don't generally polypile except when the gamestate is pointing towards polypiling being necessary 19:34 it sux 19:34 <@shadow_rider> what 19:34 I know that polypiling was not the direct target, but it is a nerf 19:34 <@shadow_rider> how did that happen 19:34 brb 19:34 I shall write up a list of things I do not like about 3.6, post it on pastebin, and then point to it. Sometime in August. I will be busy until then. 19:34 <@fredriq> @Loggers_VIII Orctown easily tops thelist of things I dislike about 3.6. Beyond that; flipped sokoban levels, bungled cleaver port, the terry pratchett tribute thing are other examples of things I dislike. On phone atm but iirc I had an exhaustive list somewhere 19:35 docpi: fair enough ā€“ if I'm not around you can email it to me 19:35 <@Loggers_VIII> flipped sokoban is 3.7 19:35 what the polypiling nerf means is a LOT more keyboarding to rename everything 19:35 <@Loggers_VIII> What do you mean bungled cleaver port and why is the terry pratchett stuff bad 19:35 which makes it feel like a carpal tunnel nerf 19:35 @fredriq: despite playing quite a bit of 3.6 and 3.7 in Junethack I still haven't actually come across the tribute 19:35 <@fredriq> oh I thought it was 3.6, my bad 19:35 <@shadow_rider> grasshopper what was the original change that caused that 19:35 so I hat e that because I get carpal tunnel 19:35 <@fredriq> fiqhack made cleaver hit in an arc 19:35 so more keyboarding to rename everything sux 19:36 <@fredriq> it avoids peaceful and tame monsters that it would arc-hit 19:36 that nerfing came with 3.7 19:36 <@Loggers_VIII> grasshopper I feel that :c hate typing more than is necessary 19:36 what's the terry pratchett tribute thing? 19:36 <@fredriq> NH3 ported the artifact and removed the peaceful/tame safeguard 19:36 there are novels you can read that give you quotes from Terry Pratchett novels 19:36 <@fredriq> Making the artifact much worse as a result 19:36 <@shadow_rider> thats not a nerf thats just an incredible inconvenience 19:36 <@Loggers_VIII> I kind of like that it can hit peacefuls tbh 19:36 <@shadow_rider> what was the original target of that change 19:36 what's wrong with that? 19:37 No worries ais523, I am notorious for getting noticed. You will not miss it. 19:37 ALSO, when you throw or drop stuff and monsters pick them upo 19:37 <@fredriq> I don't mind it hitting peacefuls, but it ought to require a confirm 19:37 cleaver being able to hit peacefuls makes it almost useless 19:37 same applies to stormbringer 19:37 you lose the identification 19:37 <@shadow_rider> ? how does that make it useless 19:37 <@Loggers_VIII> Noisytoot quite possibly the most ridiculous thing said today 19:37 and that sux, for missile characters (rangers, rogues, wizards) 19:37 -!- Sgeo_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37 <@fredriq> @shadow_rider because then it's like any other weapon 19:37 <@Loggers_VIII> Just play with like a modicum of caution? 19:37 [hdf-us] [nh370] Dirge (Mon Hum Mal Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:10200 19:37 <@shadow_rider> stormbringer and cleaver are great weapons used by many people? 19:37 <@fredriq> you need to confirm to hit peacefuls 19:38 makes anyything othert than a valk a PTA 19:38 PITA 19:38 <@fredriq> cleaver should be no different 19:38 Grasshopper: oh wow, I just realised that that would mean that your big stack of daggers would stop stacking 19:38 it's too easy to accidentally anger peacefuls or kill pets 19:38 <@fredriq> but if you are targeting a hostile 19:38 ais523, yes that 19:38 -!- Sgeo_ has joined #hardfought 19:38 <@fredriq> it should only arc-hit hostiles 19:38 this makes me even more determined to add comparison-ID because it woudl solve that problem 19:38 <@shadow_rider> its a very nethack like thing to have tho 19:38 <@shadow_rider> and its one that is easy enough to play around ime 19:38 alright i apologize for my paranoid liquids take 19:38 so if you play valks all the time, and just bump into monsters to kill them, you won't notice the hassle 19:39 <@Loggers_VIII> Yeah I donā€™t really see the issue. You would still be unable to attack the monster, so itā€™s the same as not attacking monsters with peaceful monsters nearby 19:39 and that all includes pets, which apport your thrown stuff about 19:39 vanilla stormbringer behaviour is mostly a dumb UI screw ("mostly" because it prevents displacing pets which isn't entirely a UI screw) 19:39 there seems to be a huge split in opinion among players/devs between "the game should catch situations where the player inputs a command the character is unlikely to intend" and "players should play more carefully and stop making typos" 19:39 <@shadow_rider> i pretty much exclusively use stormbringer on every chaotic character i play 19:39 the former camp appears to be larger, but it isn't *everyone*, there are plenty of people in the latter camp 19:39 <@shadow_rider> and its fine 19:39 I feel that vanilla is becoming predisposed to valks 19:39 i flipflop on how i feel about paranoid liquids so frequently 19:39 <@Loggers_VIII> Yeah cuz stormbringer is badass as all hell 19:39 for me, paranoid_swim is basically a necessity for tournaments because my connection is so laggy 19:40 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 19:40 <@Loggers_VIII> ^ 19:40 oh yeah laggy connection would do it for me 19:40 no deal 19:40 I liike the paranoid_swim stuff 19:40 the valk quest takes ages just because I have to work out how far I am through the lag before moving at all 19:40 when I'm playing a version or variant without it 19:40 i can see an argument for pretty much anything that using a custom interface would prevent 19:40 <@shadow_rider> lagging in nethack T_T 19:40 playing locally I don't really care, it's probably an improvement, I can survive without it 19:41 <@shadow_rider> i play nethack so that my computer doesnt lag and it still does 19:41 im pro paranoid liquids for now, but im sure i will flip back to the other side soon 19:41 <@Loggers_VIII> lag in NetHack feels fundamentally wrong. Like, you are lagging on this? This fossil of a game? 19:41 because connections are laggy 19:41 the game itself isn't 19:41 right, there's very little lag in the game itself 19:41 but network lag is common when playing online 19:41 [hdf-us] [nh4] cpittman (Kni Hum Mal Law), 34520 points, T:2191, killed by a giant spider 19:41 latency caused by a lot of fragmentation and retransmission needed? 19:41 <@shadow_rider> yeah ikik 19:41 <@fredriq> Grasshopper: yeah, the unID "feature" in 3.7 really dumb 19:41 <@Loggers_VIII> Noisytoot no itā€™s because no itā€™s because the universe hates me :p 19:41 <@fredriq> but I thought it was limited to nymphs 19:42 <@fredriq> if what you say is correct, it is much, much worse 19:42 <@Loggers_VIII> oops typed that bit twice 19:42 this reminds me, I once accidentally wrote a loop that counted to MAXINT whenever you entered Vlad's Tower 19:42 <@fredriq> and makes ranged play borderline unplayable 19:42 modern computers are so fast that I didn't immediately realise what was wrong 19:42 fredriq: I like things that make playing more fun, not mor eof a hassle 19:42 <@Loggers_VIII> literally unplayable 19:42 that's pretty funny ais 19:42 the 3.7 unIDing thing just makes thing less fun, mor ehassle 19:43 accidentally moving into liquids and attacking peacefuls with stormbringer are preventable with a custom interface and so dumb UI screws, stormbringer preventing peaceful displacement is not, cleaver attacking peacefuls partially is (a custom interface could prevent you from accidentally attacking peaceful/tame monsters but not allow you to attack a hostile monster between peacefuls) 19:43 <@shadow_rider> nethack is a hassle in general 19:43 <@shadow_rider> why do we play this game 19:43 so I think it is a total negative 19:43 <@fredriq> imagine you play ranged 19:43 <@fredriq> throw arrows and stuff 19:43 <@fredriq> and now monsters decide to pickup your stuff 19:43 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Yeenoghu, on T:30340 19:43 you MUST name your enchanted arrows/darts/daggers 19:44 <@fredriq> that sounds excessively painful for... what benefit exactly? 19:44 <@Loggers_VIII> Can someone brief me on the unID thing? 19:44 otherwise you won't "recognise" them 19:44 <@fredriq> @Loggers_VIII if a monster picks up an item 19:44 will they still stack if named? 19:44 <@fredriq> you lose knowledge of it 19:44 does this include pets? 19:44 <@Loggers_VIII> Thatā€™s kind of silly 19:44 that's such an epic change 19:44 tl;dr thrown/fired projectiles will unID if a monster picks them up and you don't see them. 19:44 [hdf-us] [nh4] cpittman (Kni Hum Mal Law), 7216 points, T:134, killed by being doused in acid 19:44 so you've fully ID'd your missle weapons, but then you throw it and you lose it 19:44 lose the ID, it is gone 19:44 <@Loggers_VIII> I donā€™t really see the logic behind that. Surely you would recognize your items 19:45 onlyt thing than remains is if you #named the items 19:45 <@shadow_rider> EPI: give and let monsters use enchant weapon on your thrown stuff so they stack even less 19:45 <@fredriq> yeah this encourages naming literally every item you carry 19:45 so you might see "dart named +7" 19:45 <@Loggers_VIII> If youā€™ve named your items youā€™ve already shown that you can recognize them by sight alone therefore the change makes no sense boom I win 19:45 <@fredriq> this sounds like an EPI-grade idea tbh 19:45 yeah so that is just more keyboarding work 19:45 <@fredriq> at least I can understand the reasoning for orctown even if I hate it 19:45 does the commit message for that change help elucidate the intent? 19:46 which IMO is a waste of time and my fingers 19:46 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Fem Law), 23782 points, T:11081, killed by a giant watch captain, while being terrified of a ghost 19:46 or maybe the devs can nerf #naming stuff, and I can stp playing NH altogether 19:46 <@fredriq> ais523: please make this change go away if you can 19:46 becos that is where im at 19:46 tinklebear must have been in a desecrated temple, and angered the Watch. 19:46 <@Loggers_VIII> If the devs nerf #name I will strike the game 19:47 <@fredriq> lol 19:47 I will take my bat and ball and go home 19:47 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:30576 19:47 <@fredriq> jusst play variants instead šŸ˜› 19:47 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:30582 19:47 <@fredriq> I heard a rumor earlier about dnh being a decent variant 19:47 <@Loggers_VIII> What will I do without my shirt named Sergio or my hat named Gustavo or my archon named Guy Montag or my gnomish wizard named Evil Fucker? 19:47 <@fredriq> I don't quite recall where I heard it though 19:47 dnh sucks because it lacks paranoid swim 19:47 <@shadow_rider> hah that brings up an interesting question: what is the littlest change that could be made to vanilla that would make you stop playing it ever again? 19:47 other than that, it's good 19:47 <@Loggers_VIII> Just play evilhack itā€™s peak variant content 19:47 what commit even adds the item forgetting? 19:47 I really don't think they're gonna actually nerf naming 19:48 <@Loggers_VIII> removing the letters 19:48 Umbire, you never know 19:48 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) performed the invocation, on T:30604 19:48 <@fredriq> @shadow_rider making orctown guranteed 19:48 I feel uncomfortable even mentioning it here 19:48 -!- malor has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48 <@Loggers_VIII> Okay to be fair sometimes you actually do know 19:48 ^ 19:48 <@shadow_rider> what does this mean? 19:49 Legitimately what purpose would it serve besides fulfilling the condition of "things you imagined that would inconvenience you?" 19:49 <@Loggers_VIII> no more letters 19:49 <@shadow_rider> ... 19:49 <@shadow_rider> so no game 19:49 <@Loggers_VIII> Umbire that line is so hard actually like Douglas Adams type shit right there 19:49 <@Loggers_VIII> no they can keep the code and everything just no letters 19:49 -!- nurdglaw has quit [Quit: Client closed] 19:50 <@fredriq> @shadow_rider in terms of changed bytes in the code 19:50 Haha I get it because the game would literally be unplayable xd 19:50 <@Loggers_VIII> Someone gets it 19:50 Fucking adventure game prompts every time you want to prompt xdddddd 19:51 I lather my responses in pith but that is genuinely a bit funny to picture. 19:51 <@shadow_rider> i got it the first time i guess... lol 19:51 <@Loggers_VIII> If no one else got me I know Umbire got me 19:51 <@Loggers_VIII> By the way circling back like forty miles fiq you said the terry pratchett changes were bad and Iā€™m actually curious what do you mean 19:51 -!- Sgeo_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51 anyway I don't even disagree that this projectile thing is kinda dumb 19:52 even if it's ultimately more annoyance to me than anything else 19:52 -!- Sgeo_ has joined #hardfought 19:52 clearly the solution is to add xnh stack auto-merging 19:52 /hj 19:52 <@Loggers_VIII> honestly just add all of xnh to vanilla 19:52 -!- Sgeo_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:52 lmao pls 19:52 <@fredriq> ais523: please make this change go away if you can ā† I'm not sure I can, but I may try to pass on the feedback 19:52 <@shadow_rider> maybe that should be my design goal of ridehack: only keeping in and adding things that will inconvenience tha player as much as possible 19:52 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed chickatrice corpse", got "a chickatrice corpse", on T:30824 19:53 <@Loggers_VIII> make everyone move with arrow keys 19:53 -!- Sgeo_ has joined #hardfought 19:53 <@shadow_rider> no not inconvenient enough 19:53 how do you move diagonally with arrow keys? 19:53 <@shadow_rider> you must use number keys 19:53 <@Loggers_VIII> Noisytoot you donā€™t 19:53 <@shadow_rider> but the number keys on the top row 19:53 -!- Sgeo_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53 in NH4, you can use pgup/pgdn/home/end 19:53 as diagonals 19:53 <@fredriq> nothing wrong with arrow keys 19:53 <@fredriq> I used it for years 19:53 <@Loggers_VIII> @shadow_rider you know I do that right 19:53 <@shadow_rider> WAT 19:53 I'm not sure how many people actually do 19:53 <@fredriq> arrow keys + yubn 19:54 <@shadow_rider> no you dont loggers 19:54 there are some people who use arrow keys + yubn or arrow keys + 1379, which is just weird 19:54 <@shadow_rider> take it back right now before i find out where you live 19:54 <@Loggers_VIII> yes I do itā€™s fast 19:54 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed the high priestess of Moloch, on T:30930 19:54 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired The Amulet of Yendor, on T:30943 19:54 <@shadow_rider> no 19:54 <@Loggers_VIII> No 19:54 <@fredriq> ais523: it stemmed from back when I palayed on a pandora 19:55 <@shadow_rider> how could you possibly think that was a good idea 19:55 fwiw, I play the TAS using main keyboard numbers 19:55 obligatory "does anyone need anything wiki'd right now" 19:55 <@fredriq> arrow keys were really convenient on it since it was mapped to d-pad 19:55 <@shadow_rider> what was going through your head 19:55 but that is a weird special case 19:55 <@Loggers_VIII> who 19:55 before I load up Hack'EM and get sucked into that 19:55 <@shadow_rider> you 19:55 <@fredriq> but I needed to be able to use diagonals when approaching monsters 19:55 <@Loggers_VIII> I didnā€™t know hjkl keys existed and I didnā€™t have a number pad lol 19:55 <@shadow_rider> yeah umbire add loggers to notable player page 19:55 <@shadow_rider> notably bad 19:55 <@Loggers_VIII> Wtf :c 19:55 lol 19:55 <@fredriq> I adapted yubn for that 19:56 how easy would it have been to make PMD-style diagonals work? 19:56 legitimately wonder why post even got added to the page on that note 19:56 that is a really good interface for diagonals 19:56 <@Loggers_VIII> How do I get on notable players page? Asking for a friend :p 19:56 when you have a d-pad 19:56 <@shadow_rider> its as easy as making a wiki account 19:56 <@fredriq> ais523: very easy in theory 19:56 pull off "the big one" 19:56 <@shadow_rider> then post about yourself and all your accomplishments 19:56 <@fredriq> but R was mapped to ctrl 19:57 I was gonna say I don't know how I feel about PMD diagonals now I've had a taste of "actual" diagonal movement 19:57 does makes perfect sense for the consoles though 19:57 <@Loggers_VIII> Loggers: famous for playing a lot of con dro and losing quite literally every game 19:57 <@fredriq> but yeah I considered looking into openbox settings 19:57 the terminal control code interface can't handle simultaneous inputs, apart from shift/ctrl/alt 19:57 <@fredriq> and see if I could figure out a way to simulate PMD diagonals 19:57 I think SDL can handle simultaneous arrow keys 19:57 post didn't include himself is the thing, that was the local weirdo-watching contigent 19:58 <@Loggers_VIII> lol 19:58 <@Loggers_VIII> Post is a notable player, Iā€™d argue 19:58 which bugs me in part because guy isn't even much weird all things considered 19:58 on terminals, it is fairly easy to implement shift-to-rotate-45Ā° and NH4 has that as a non-default config, but that's a little unintuitive 19:58 <@Loggers_VIII> Everyone knows post, whether they want to or not 19:58 <@shadow_rider> post has more game knowledge than i do probably 19:58 https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/commit/ad7f2afef9907ef6e52a17dd446b44d1dc774dbe original commit of monsters out of vision picking up an object making the player forget it 19:58 it has some context 19:59 Demo: oddly, one of the major effects of your feedback is persuading me not to play dnethack :-D 19:59 and rationale around the decision 19:59 <@Loggers_VIII> Btw question about dnethack. I know Vladā€™s is above the mines. Do you like.. go there early? Or save it for later 19:59 I get the impression that resource, ID, etc. management is intended to be a less important part of that game compared to vanilla, which is certainly reasonable, but which doesn't fit my personal preferences 20:00 <@shadow_rider> it can be done earlyish 20:00 I once seriously proposed putting Vlad's near Mine's End, unchanged 20:00 <@Loggers_VIII> Also how did demo do that really quick asc at the start of june 20:00 err, well, Vlad was unchanged 20:00 the levels had differents tuff 20:00 <@shadow_rider> demo posted commentary about it loggers 20:00 I get the AoLS early but don't actually kill vlad 20:00 <@Loggers_VIII> Thatā€™s a fun idea ais523 20:00 [hdf-us] [nh370] Dirge (Mon Hum Mal Cha) destroyed Flench's ghost, the former Trailblazer, on T:11277 20:00 <@shadow_rider> in #nethack-variants i think 20:00 I think resource management more just takes a different form than anything else 20:01 in dnh 20:01 it's actually an interesting question of "at what point in the game can a typical character beat lad?" 20:01 *Vlad 20:01 Excalibur seems like it may be disproportionately useful in that due to the drain resistance 20:01 <@Loggers_VIII> I think buffed Vlad could be beaten like around quest with little trouble 20:02 <@Loggers_VIII> Old Vlad is definitely mines end material at mostly 20:02 also depends on which Vlad 20:02 <@Loggers_VIII> *mosy 20:02 <@shadow_rider> vlad is pretty well placed in terms of difficulty i think 20:02 <@Loggers_VIII> *MOST 20:02 mosy 20:02 I was curious as to whether Vlad had been buffed in 3.7; I concluded that I probably wouldn't notice if he had :-D 20:02 <@Loggers_VIII> mosy yourself >:c 20:02 Loggers, "for those interested in a commentary and review of the ndnh speedrun i did at the end of may, here are links to part 1 https://0x0.st/HQba.mkv and part 2 https://0x0.st/HQbS.mkv that will die after about a month i think" 20:02 I will 20:02 right on down to the mines 20:02 :3 20:02 <@Loggers_VIII> pfff 20:03 seriously though, need to fill out armor slots 20:03 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "marker", got "a magic marker", on T:31847 20:03 i think that is now probably a bit less than a month left 20:03 <@Loggers_VIII> maybe I will play some dnh 20:03 <@Loggers_VIII> They need some fresh meat over there 20:03 i think you could definitely do very advanced stuff there 20:03 there is A LOT of room for gameplay optimization in dnh 20:04 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "2 cursed gain level", got "2 potions of gain level", on T:31937 20:04 <@Loggers_VIII> I managed to do some pretty crazy shit with admittedly somewhat limited evilhack options. The pure potential of dnh excites me 20:04 <@Loggers_VIII> But Iā€™ll probably give it a month or two before I try 20:05 oh yeah there's also a lot of room for that general fuckery 20:05 maybe by then i'll have put together a beginner dnh route for the current patch 20:05 <@Loggers_VIII> Anyway, going to bed for real now. Night all o/ 20:05 night 20:05 i want it to be very loose and very "this is an attempt at trying to take a route that a beginner might benefit from taking to avoid complex mechanics" 20:05 ooh, DoktorL's most recent wish shows supreme confidence 20:05 could be an ascension incoming soonish 20:05 also is the beginner route still gonna be some kinda barbarian 20:06 probably barb vamp 20:06 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor (2nd time), on T:32213 20:06 which seems counterintuitive 20:07 but in the grand scheme of things, despite being a nonvanilla race, I think vamp scares off a lot of other complexity by slotlessy getting certain traits 20:07 I was thinking, vampires have great intrinsics 20:08 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor (3rd time), on T:32555 20:08 it makes it a lot easier to put together a kit that doesn't rely on as much new content and is still rock solid 20:09 Playable vamp implementation differs a fair bit between variants 20:09 yeah :/ 20:09 I think dnh would have the "easier" ones 20:09 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "holy fixed +2 cloak of magic resistance", got "a tattered cape", on T:32688 20:09 hackem has the hardest 20:09 in terms of picking up a vamp character and just playing 20:09 vulnerability to fire, hunger at xl10 until recently 20:10 <@shadow_rider> vulnerability to anything sucks 20:10 pretty sure a beginner dnh run would involve skipping almost everything but gatetown and the law quest 20:10 vulnerability to fire sucks especially because it means no regen in gehennom 20:10 Demo: wrt your breaks reading the blog post, I also had to take breaks writing it, it was written over the course of a few days as a consequence 20:10 chaos would vary between runs 20:10 I thought that was just me burning out again, but maybe it really is that hard to get through in one go if other people are struggling too 20:10 not even outlands? 20:11 there's a lot of stuff to explain for outlandw 20:11 vampires are pretty good as a polyform in vanilla 20:11 they may be the easiest polyinit in NH4 20:11 (incidentally, have many people tried polyinit games, in NH4 or any other variant?) 20:11 except they instadeath to cockatrices 20:11 that is the nice thing about the vampire race though, it is pretty intuitive for those familiar with poly as far as the benefits go 20:12 (not in any variant that has a vampire player race that I know of, but in vanilla) 20:12 the instadeath to cockatrices is definitely worth being aware of 20:12 I think it probably happens in NH4 polyinit 20:12 but it shouldn't be too hard to pick up a ranged attack for those? 20:12 [hdf-us] [spl] nabru (Bar Mer Fem Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:1456 20:12 daggers, wands, spells if you're a caster role 20:13 not like you're exactly lacking, at least on paper 20:13 the problem is more accidentally bumping into one 20:13 (said because nh4 does wand skill iirc) 20:13 [hdf-us] [spl] nabru (Bar Mer Fem Neu), 1067 points, T:1494, struck down by an ogre 20:13 not NH4; Fourk and FIQhack do 20:13 right 20:13 and it was me who invented the idea of a wand skill, but I didn't actually implement it 20:14 yellow 'c' is more visible than blue 'e' :-D 20:14 which probably makes chickatrices more dangerous than cockatrices, especially as they often generate in groups 20:14 maybe there should be some sort of warning for this 20:14 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered the Elemental Planes, on T:32911 20:14 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered Plane of Earth, on T:32911 20:14 [hdf-us] [nh4] cpittman (Kni Hum Mal Law), 28152 points, T:1238, killed by a giant spider 20:15 the situation hardly ever comes up in normal games, though, so it's hard to know whether the character would be aware of the issue 20:15 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered Plane of Air, on T:32958 20:16 <@shadow_rider> have people won polyinit before 20:17 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) made her first wish - "blessed fireproof +2 t-shirt of decay", on T:23353 (9:55:41) 20:17 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered Plane of Fire, on T:33011 20:18 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered Plane of Water, on T:33074 20:19 at least a few, yeah 20:19 just not discussed much that I'm aware of 20:19 I recall a Tourist shade in particular 20:20 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered the Astral Plane, on T:33157 20:21 is "t-shirt of decay" a real evilhack item, or is that just screwing around with the wish parser? 20:21 its real 20:21 <@shadow_rider> decay is drain res 20:21 aha 20:21 <@shadow_rider> would polyinit show up on nethack scoreboard or prolly not? 20:21 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Famine, on T:33176 20:22 when i was creating object properties, i initially was going to allow weapons to have the property (would act like stormbringer) and then decided against it 20:22 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 1680054 points, T:33194, ascended 20:22 https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/D/DoktorL/nethack/dumplog/1688581276.nh.html 20:22 but 'decay' stuck around 20:22 grats doktorL 20:23 decay sounds icky 20:23 i like it 20:23 you would! 20:23 :) 20:23 it's better than a thirsty shirt 20:23 or life-drinking 20:23 T-shirt of thirst resistance 20:24 you reckon? 20:24 camelbak tshirt 20:24 no brands! 20:24 but I like the idea 20:24 sponsorship 20:24 thirst is ignored in NH 20:24 EvilHack brought to you by CamelBak 20:25 by Nike, for the speed boots surely 20:26 @fredriq: I just added a debug command to NetHack4 to see where monsters think the player is, and tested it a bit on Astral, and I think I have solved the "riders converge on you" mystery 20:27 the Riders genuinely don't know where you are; but pathfind behaviour for idle monsters in NH4 is to pick random spots on the level and pathfind there, until they get stuck 20:27 and that is very likely to send them through the starting area, where the player begins 20:27 so they aren't beelining to the player, but to the place where the player spwans 20:27 because moving on Astral is slow, they'll probably still be there by the time the Riders spot them 20:27 and then get chased 20:28 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) killed Lord Surtur, on T:23495 (10:06:35) 20:28 There is a mace named Sunspot on my screen 20:28 Thank you random Mordor orc 20:28 <@shadow_rider> aha 20:28 <@shadow_rider> good find ais 20:29 feel free to pull the #muxy command into your variant, if you think it would help with debugging 20:29 #muxy? 20:29 (or even if you don't and just want to stay updated with upstream) 20:30 Umbire: it's the internal name for "where a monster thinks the player is", an abbreviation for mux/muy 20:30 ic 20:31 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:23653 (10:09:35) 20:33 <@Luxidream> I won polyinit zruty in protest of xnethack removing it 20:34 oh wow, more emergent behaviour ā€“ there is specific code to make monsters *forget* where the player is / where they were pathing to on Astral, and that just makes them more inclined to converge on the starting room because they're basically rerandomizing a point to path to every turn 20:34 @Luxidream: beautiful 20:34 xnethack removed polyinit? 20:34 I have no idea how good or bad zruty is as a polyinit form 20:34 @v? zruty 20:34 zruty (z) | Lvl: 9 | Diff: 11 | Spd: 8 | Res: none | Confer: nothing | MR: 0 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 3 | Atk: 3d4 claw physical, 3d4 claw physical, 3d6 bite physical | Align: 0 | genocidable, carnivore, infravis 20:34 or zruties? 20:34 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Sam Hum Mal Law), 1992 points, T:2745, killed by a soldier ant 20:34 that looksā€¦ somewhat suboptimal 20:34 which I guess is part of the fun 20:35 nope, polyinit is still there 20:35 the attacks are nice earlygame 20:35 which is, I guess, the part of the game that really matters 20:35 https://stash.renanbirck.rocks/polyinit.png I started as a shade, FWIW 20:35 <@shadow_rider> epic 20:35 <@shadow_rider> i want to try this out 20:36 yours is probably the one I remember then 20:36 <@shadow_rider> taking suggestions for what to start as 20:36 <@Luxidream> Red mold 20:36 Archon? 20:36 aren't they sessile? 20:36 <@shadow_rider> taking decent suggestions for what to start as 20:36 apparently it removed zruties and put seamonsters on z then restored it 20:36 shadow_rider: lichen 20:37 jabberwock should be fairly good 20:37 and yet limited by inability to wear most armour 20:37 <@shadow_rider> listen you guys 20:37 [hdf-us] [nh4] cpittman (Kni Hum Mal Law), 27103 points, T:1315, killed by a dingo 20:37 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) completed her quest without incident, on T:23929 (10:15:45) 20:37 angel is probably good 20:37 <@shadow_rider> iā€™m willing to play some hot garbage but make it playable 20:37 <@Luxidream> Ghoul 20:37 I like ghoul, you get the rarest intrinsic in the game 20:37 MR, can wear all armour, but also slow 20:37 sickness resistance 20:37 @?ghoul 20:37 ghoul (Z) | Lvl: 3 | Diff: 5 | Spd: 6 | Res: cold sleep poison drain | Confer: nothing | MR: 0 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 10 | Atk: 1d2 claw paralyze, 1d3 claw physical | Align: -2 | genocidable, omnivore, breathless, mindless, poisonous, undead 20:37 eat all the tainted corpses you like 20:38 @?angel 20:38 Angel (A) | Lvl: 14 | Diff: 19 | Spd: 10 | Res: cold sleep shock poison magic | Confer: nothing | MR: 55 | Gen: dungeons | AC: -4 | Atk: 1d6 weapon physical, 1d6 weapon physical, 1d4 claw physical, 2d6 cast magic missile | Align: 12 | flies, seeinvis, nopoly, stalker, infravis 20:38 <@Luxidream> speed 6 no health 20:38 speed 6 is terrible, yes 20:38 <@shadow_rider> is it straight intrinsic unchanging? 20:38 yes 20:38 <@shadow_rider> so regen sucks? 20:38 the NH4 implementation is literally "polymorph at the start of the game and you have intrinsic unchanging" 20:38 <@Luxidream> I think Regen works 20:38 I don't think I even implemented an override for unchanging overrides 20:38 <@cpittman> Who the hell uses a lance and a steed? 20:39 <@Luxidream> why did autocorrect capitalize that 20:39 knight? 20:39 can you pray as lawful undead and get changed back? 20:39 Noisytoot: I think so, at least in NH4 20:39 (and would still have the intrinsic unchanging) 20:39 but that's against the spirit of the option 20:39 newt 20:39 <@shadow_rider> yeah thatā€™s cute but pointless 20:39 <@Luxidream> skeleton, named sans 20:39 [hdf-us] [xnh] nabru (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 2794 points, T:949, killed by a dart, while helpless 20:40 <@shadow_rider> not being scored anyhow 20:40 <@Luxidream> extinctionist 20:40 in NH3.7 you can use the eyes of the overworld in a zen game, which is also cute but pointless (it breaks the conduct) 20:40 <@shadow_rider> no 20:40 @v? storm giant 20:40 does nh4 allow invalid polyforms? 20:40 storm giant (H) | Lvl: 16 | Diff: 19 | Spd: 12 | Res: shock | Confer: shock | MR: 10 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 3 | Atk: 2d12 weapon physical | Align: -3 | genocidable, carnivore, infravis 20:40 xnethack does 20:40 so you can be polyinit angel or archon 20:40 <@Luxidream> @?ogre 20:40 ogre (O) | Lvl: 5 | Diff: 7 | Spd: 10 | Res: none | Confer: nothing | MR: 0 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 5 | Atk: 2d5 weapon physical | Align: -3 | genocidable, carnivore, infravis 20:41 I can't remember, I implemented this a while ago 20:41 I guess this is where polyinit falls down: there aren't any monsters that are really inspiring to play as 20:41 black dragon? 20:41 Wasn't that always the case for zen iirc? 20:41 <@shadow_rider> its ok inspiring forms is not needed 20:41 yes, once it was officially implemented 20:42 in 3.4.3 you can't use the Eyes in a zen game because you aren't allowed to remove the blindfold, so there's no slot to put them in 20:42 <@shadow_rider> ill play something as bad as zruty 20:42 right, right 20:42 electric eel? 20:42 also I feel like a form doesn't have to be "inspiring" per se so much as "interesting" 20:42 @?electric eel 20:42 electric eel (;) | Lvl: 7 | Diff: 10 | Spd: 10 | Res: shock | Confer: shock | MR: 0 | Gen: special | AC: -3 | Atk: 4d6 bite shock, 0d0 touch wrap | Align: 0 | genocidable, carnivore, swims, amphibious, oviparous, infravis 20:42 <@Luxidream> zruty is too strong 20:42 Noisytoot, good luck air drowning and dying to grid bugs 20:42 sea monsters are not recommended for polyinit games, they rapidly drop to 1hp and stay there when out of water 20:42 ā€¦until they get hit, then they aren't at 1hp any more 20:42 <@shadow_rider> how 20:43 ascend before you drop to 1hp 20:43 Noisytoot: well I did remove the turn 2000 barrier in some variant, I hope it was NH4ā€¦ 20:44 NH4 fixes it by starting the alignment cap at 20 20:44 rather than 10 20:44 <@Luxidream> @?zruty 20:44 zruty (z) | Lvl: 9 | Diff: 11 | Spd: 8 | Res: none | Confer: nothing | MR: 0 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 3 | Atk: 3d4 claw physical, 3d4 claw physical, 3d6 bite physical | Align: 0 | genocidable, carnivore, infravis 20:44 <@Luxidream> intrinsic 7 ac 20:44 why do some roles start at 10 alignment and others at 0 in vanilla? 20:45 <@Luxidream> extra attacks 20:45 Noisytoot: flavour 20:45 -!- leah2 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:45 @Luxidream: not just extra attacks, the numbers on those attacks are very good compared to most weapons 20:45 <@shadow_rider> ok ill just go down the list of suggestions 20:45 Cav/Pri/Tou/Val/Wiz start at 0, everything else at 10 20:46 <@shadow_rider> also it seems invalid forms are indeed still invalid 20:46 Hm, still can't find the mines actually 20:46 annoying 20:46 <@shadow_rider> first stop red mold 20:47 I suspect you won't get very far 20:47 @?red mold 20:47 red mold (F) | Lvl: 1 | Diff: 2 | Spd: 0 | Res: fire poison | Confer: fire poison | MR: 0 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 9 | Atk: 0d4 passive fire | Align: 0 | genocidable, breathless, mindless, infravis, vegan 20:47 <@shadow_rider> well thats that 20:48 blue jelly :) 20:48 sessile monsters have their speed increased when used as polyforms, but I think they are still unable to move 20:48 which makes ascending somewhat difficult 20:48 floating eye 20:48 "somewhat" 20:48 actually, I'm not even sure that they do have a speed increase, now that I think about it 20:48 how does the unable to attack floating eyes thing in nh4 work with monsters? 20:48 @?floating eye 20:48 floating eye (e) | Lvl: 2 | Diff: 3 | Spd: 1 | Res: none | Confer: nothing | MR: 10 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 9 | Atk: 0d70 passive paralyze | Align: 0 | genocidable, flies, amphibious, infravis 20:48 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered Sokoban, on T:1545 20:49 Noisytoot: they aren't as intelligent, they attack them and get paralyzed 20:49 the flavour for the "can't attack" is "you realise you made a mistake and look away, but it's hard to hit when you're doing that" 20:49 [hdf-us] [nh4] Ride (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 2129 points, T:184, killed by a grid bug, while stuck in monster form, in polyinit mode 20:49 <@shadow_rider> lol 20:50 shouldn't you still be able to force-attack them? 20:50 flavourwise yes, the flavour doesn't fit the mechanics very well 20:52 maybe I should just remove floating eyes altogether? I wanted to kind-of respect the original vision for them 20:52 even to the extent of wording the messages for not hitting a floating eye in such a way that they'd cause a scary --More-- when playing in 80Ɨ24 20:52 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Sam Hum Mal Law) was bestowed with Snickersnee by Amaterasu Omikami, on T:4129 20:52 but I'm not sure in retrospect that this is a worthwhile goal 20:54 <@Luxidream> polyinit would be more fun if you had hands and a normal carrying capacity 20:54 <@Luxidream> then you could try to win as a quivering blob or whatever 20:55 <@Luxidream> otherwise most of these forms are unplayable 20:55 I wonder whether any handless forms are actually playable 20:57 doesn't slex have handless races? 20:57 Noisytoot: this is not a good argument :-D 20:57 it has everything, including headless ones 20:57 <@shadow_rider> slex lets you attempt to do things you arent allowed to do 20:57 including things you are legally not allowed to do, too 20:58 inclusion in slex is not any real evidence of playability 20:58 <@shadow_rider> with a chance of failling or bad effects 20:58 yeah 20:58 and right, I forgot that mechanic 20:58 <@shadow_rider> its not 20:58 <@shadow_rider> but sessile is quite literally unplayable 20:58 imagine if you grow instead, like a lichen spreading 20:58 but no its too exotic 20:59 HyperRogue has an item that makes you do that 20:59 which one? 20:59 i.e. grow rather than moving normally 20:59 also imagine playing as a marilith, that would be super fun 20:59 one thing I wanted to do in NH4 was to implement slot count changing with polyform 20:59 so that ettins could wear two helmets, etc. 21:00 but it would be a lot of work ā€“ I have the basic idea of how the code would need to look, but there is so much existing code that would need changing 21:01 [hdf-us] [nh370] mobius (Val Dwa Fem Law), 2681 points, T:4130, killed by a chameleon imitating a glass golem 21:01 dnethack allows mariliths to wield 6 weapons (kind of, it uses the (n-2)th weapon in inventory) 21:02 more than 6 if you get more marilith arm attacks 21:12 ais523: I think another reason why wands are more useful than scrolls and potions is that they are easier and safer to ID by engraving than potions and scrolls are by using them 21:13 using unidentified scrolls and potions is a bad idea (especially scrolls because amnesia exists) but engrave-testing unidentified wands is fine 21:15 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 4696 points, T:4345, killed by an incubus 21:18 Noisytoot: there are fairly safe ways to ID potions by using them up, but they aren't nearly as safe as with the wands 21:18 IIRC the only dangerous wand to engrave-ID is create monster, and even then it is nearly always survivable 21:18 tnnt taught me to always apply test 21:18 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 211 points, T:493, killed by a gas spore's explosion 21:19 the school of shredded cloaks and hard knocks taught me to always dip test with a junk item :( 21:19 <@shadow_rider> k jabberwock is too easy 21:19 <@shadow_rider> kinda wanna quit this 21:19 speedrun it 21:20 apply test wands or potions? 21:20 potions 21:20 there is a trophy for discovering oil by apply testing a potion 21:20 that's basically standard for me, has been for a few years now 21:20 you also dip test for sickness + polymorph 21:21 you can* 21:22 it is possible to identify hard gems in zero turns by trying to engrave with them and cancelling it before doing anything (because it says whether it's in the dust or not) 21:26 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27 [hdf-us] [nh370] poppyjams (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1544 points, T:3432, killed by a homunculus, while frozen by a floating eye's gaze 21:30 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 21:31 -!- anselmus has joined #hardfought 21:33 [hdf-us] [xnh] monastic (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 4583 points, T:6323, quit 21:34 [hdf-us] [xnh] monastic (Mon Hum Mal Law), 16 points, T:20, killed by a magic missile zapped by a kobold 21:36 [hdf-us] [dnh] Som (Dhl-Hea Dro Fem Neu) killed the Grue, on T:21870 21:38 [hdf-us] [nh4] cpittman (Kni Hum Mal Law), 27608 points, T:1244, killed by a giant spider, while praying 21:39 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 5312 points, T:3416, killed by a crocodile 21:42 why doesn't ndnh2 have the gnome potion thing? 21:43 it didn't make flavor sense 21:43 and it was generally janky 21:47 I didn't even notice that monsters don't drop corpses in gehennom or the planes in dnethack (because & and A don't drop corpses anyway) 21:47 Gnome potion thing? 21:49 making potions from corpses that do a lot of damage 21:49 https://github.com/demogorgon22/notdnethack-oldarchive/blob/2021.05.21/changelog.txt 22:00 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Croesus, on T:27229 (18:55:17) 22:01 -!- el has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01 -!- el has joined #hardfought 22:09 -!- rld has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10 -!- rld has joined #hardfought 22:10 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v rld] by ChanServ 22:11 -!- rld has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11 -!- rld has joined #hardfought 22:11 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v rld] by ChanServ 22:18 [hdf-us] [dnh] Som (Hea Dro Fem Neu), 32931 points, T:22748, quit 22:19 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) was crowned "The Hand of Elbereth" by Amaterasu Omikami, on T:28150 (4:19:28) 22:22 [hdf-us] [slshm] wsx9000 (Wiz Dop Fem Cha), 1804 points, T:1089, killed by a baby yellow dragon 22:43 [hdf-us] [nh370] vor (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the invisible Master Kaen, on T:28554 22:44 [hdf-us] [nh370] vor (Mon Hum Fem Cha) found the Eyes of the Overworld on the floor, on T:28560 22:44 [hdf-us] [nh370] vor (Mon Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:28560 22:50 -!- cathartes has joined #hardfought 22:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] Aeon (Wiz Hum Fem Cha), 24 points, T:160, killed by a jackal 23:00 [hdf-us] [nh370] vor (Mon Hum Fem Cha) genocided class S, on T:29110 23:05 [hdf-us] [nh370] vor (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the Grand Master, on T:29222 23:12 <@Loggers_VIII> @?gray dragon 23:12 gray dragon (D) | Lvl: 15 | Diff: 20 | Spd: 9 | Res: magic | Confer: nothing | MR: 20 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: -1 | Atk: 4d6 breath magic missile, 3d8 bite physical, 1d4 claw physical, 1d4 claw physical | Align: 4 | genocidable, carnivore, flies, thick hide, oviparous, seeinvis 23:15 [hdf-us] [dnh] Som (Dhl-Hea Dro Fem Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1666 23:27 -!- mode/Beholder [+Ziw] by Beholder 23:27 -!- sodium.libera.chat changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ Ā¤ public irc logs available on website Ā¤ ssh nethack@hardfought.org, nethack@eu.hardfought.org or nethack@au.hardfought.org Ā¤ Junethack 2023 has ended :( Good games everyone! https://junethack.net 23:27 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ 23:27 [hdf-au] [spl] Grasshopper (Tou Gno Fem Neu) read a Discworld novel, on T:1026 23:28 !who 23:28 K2: [hdf-us] habib [nh343] jonosmalls88 [nh370] vor [nh370] omghax [nh370] cpittman [nh4] bouquet [evil] Bourne [dyn] :: [hdf-eu] No current players :: [hdf-au] Grasshopper [spl] 23:28 !whereis omghax 23:28 K2: [hdf-us] omghax [nh370]: (Kni Hum Fem Law) T:1 The Dungeons of Doom level: 1 23:29 [hdf-us] [nh370] omghax (Kni Hum Fem Law), 0 points, T:30, slipped while mounting a saddled pony called Farrah 23:29 hey, you stole post163's death! 23:29 i just borrowed it 23:30 i'll return it in the morning, promise 23:30 aargh 23:40 -!- Bleeko has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:42 [hdf-us] [nh370] jonosmalls88 (Mon Hum Mal Law) entered Sokoban, on T:2922 23:42 <@cpittman> The mourning, rather. 23:43 <@cpittman> My damn saddled warhorse trapped itself in a pit on the 1st level of sokoban. I didn't notice until pushing a boulder too close for it to slip by 23:45 <@cpittman> Now I have to go back and find a pickaxe or magic whistle 23:46 [hdf-eu] [nh370] omghax (Mon Hum Fem Cha), 4 points, T:89, killed by a newt 23:47 [hdf-au] [nh370] omghax (Ran Elf Fem Cha), 0 points, T:2, killed by a falling object 23:47 NetHack 370-hdf updated (all servers) 23:48 ^ new editlevel version, 87 23:49 <@cpittman> Are there any plans to add auto-explore to 3.7? 23:50 [hdf-us] [nh370] vor (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:30975 23:52 @cpittman you'd have to ask the nethack devteam 23:54 [hdf-au] [spl] Grasshopper (Tou Gno Fem Neu), 807 points, T:1902, sent to the grave by a rothe