00:05 -!- Umbire is now known as Guest1485 00:05 -!- Guest1485 has quit [Killed (sodium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))] 00:05 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 00:16 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 00:17 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) made her first wish - "blessed fixed greased +3 gray dragon scale mail", got "a greased gray dragon scale mail", on T:12516 00:19 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) had 17 shuriken entrusted to her by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:2603 (1:05:04) 00:38 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) averted death (killed by an elf zombie), on T:3818 00:44 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) had 19 shuriken entrusted to her by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:2808 (1:30:17) 00:48 [hdf-us] [nh343] habib (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1627 points, T:2052, quit 00:48 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) had 17 shuriken entrusted to her by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:3180 (1:34:31) 00:49 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) tasted meat for the first time, by eating a lizard corpse, on T:3266 (1:35:17) 00:50 -!- crunchbubba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:00 <@cpittman> Damn, I had a fourk game crash without an error. The save says I'm on Mines 12 around turn 10k, but tries to load where I left off in Dungeon 17 around turn 14k. 01:04 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) consulted the Oracle, on T:7479 01:04 jonadab, ^ 01:05 <@cpittman> Thank you. I wasn't 100% if that was the person to talk to 01:05 He's the dev to my recollection 01:07 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a giant beetle, on T:4305 (1:52:49) 01:07 <@cpittman> Yeah, I remember mentioning a bug to him before after you said the name 01:18 [hdf-us] [slshm] yury (Wiz Dop Mal Cha), 551 points, T:844, killed by a rabbit 01:23 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:4686 (2:09:08) 01:27 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 24929 points, T:4899, zombified by a human zombie 01:30 [hdf-au] [evil] Orcranger (Ran Hob Mal Neu), 903 points, T:1654, killed by a rabid rat 01:30 -!- Chris__ANG has joined #hardfought 01:31 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha), 29633 points, T:11065, killed by an owlbear 01:33 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:2176 01:34 -!- Chris_ANG has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:37 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered a shop, on T:1274 (0:08:58) 01:39 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed the Goblin King, on T:1866 (0:27:10) 01:40 -!- dingotron has joined #hardfought 01:40 You know one thing you don't want to run into in the gnomish mines? Arch Liches 01:41 by some miracle my singular scroll of tele landed me near enough the upstaris to GTFO. 01:42 But I think it;s going to be a while before we come back looking for any luckstones down here.... 01:42 -!- dingotron has quit [Client Quit] 01:43 <@cpittman> One time I ran into an Arch-Lich on the 2nd level of the main dungeon. 01:45 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered the Gnomish Mines, on T:1422 (0:16:23) 01:45 [hdf-us] [nh370] Numenorean (Sam Hum Fem Law) destroyed xororand's ghost, the former Acolyte, on T:1999 01:48 Luckstones occur randomly within the rock walls of the dungeon. 01:50 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Goblin King, on T:888 (0:23:26) 01:54 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered Minetown, on T:1823 (0:26:05) 01:55 [hdf-us] [nh370] arthur (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) destroyed xororand's ghost, the former Acolyte, on T:2388 01:56 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered a temple, on T:1876 (0:27:29) 01:57 -!- cathartes has quit [Quit: fly away] 02:00 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 2310 points, T:1576, killed by a wand, while moving through the air 02:07 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law), 1324 points, T:2632, killed by a giant leech 02:08 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, acquiring an amulet of reflection, on T:9432 (2:53:17) 02:12 [hdf-us] [nh370] arthur (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 2476 points, T:4258, killed by an Uruk-hai 02:12 [hdf-us] [nh370] masterofpi (Bar Orc Mal Cha) made his first wish - "blessed greased +2 gray dragon scale mail", got "a greased gray dragon scale mail", on T:4067 02:12 -!- fakepass has joined #hardfought 02:12 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2155 02:18 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:22 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 02:23 -!- Umbire has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 02:28 <@cpittman> I just ran into one of post163's ghosts... Who knows how many more there could be on this level... 02:29 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Neu), 20948 points, T:4303, petrified by a gnome 02:30 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law), 384 points, T:1028, killed by a gecko 02:31 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:15014 02:33 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered Sokoban, on T:3526 (1:05:07) 02:34 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 1640 points, T:3111, killed by a rothe, while praying 02:36 -!- mobileuser has joined #hardfought 02:36 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha), 536 points, T:1266, killed by a giant rat 02:40 [hdf-us] [nh370] masterofpi (Bar Orc Mal Cha) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:4740 02:42 [hdf-eu] [nh370] thorsb (Hea Gno Mal Neu), 47336 points, T:20998, killed by a minotaur 02:51 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Sir Garland, on T:35115 02:59 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) destroyed Lich, the Fiend of Earth, on T:35650 03:00 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:3779 03:01 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the invisible Kary, the Fiend of Fire, on T:35688 03:05 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:19512 03:09 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law), 1313 points, T:1575, killed by a large spider 03:09 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:4337 03:09 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) completed Sokoban, acquiring a silver amulet of reflection, on T:8573 (4:56:22) 03:15 [hdf-au] [evil] Orcranger (Tou Hob Fem Neu), 7972 points, T:6107, killed by a bolt of lightning 03:16 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha), 8825 points, T:5237, drowned in a moat by a giant eel 03:21 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Kraken, the Fiend of Water, on T:36246 03:38 why does nethack promote racism/discrimination with surcharging 03:42 so there's no way to even turn off color in nh4? 03:48 -!- neoxy has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in] 03:53 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Sam Hum Mal Law), 6495 points, T:7354, killed by a rabid rat, while frozen by a monster's gaze 03:59 <@cpittman> There's a palette in the options but I don't know if any of them are black & white or can be changed 04:00 since floating eyes are nerfed in nh4 i guess it's not a big deal, but 04:00 dark blue still looks unreadable 04:01 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Fem Law), 1134 points, T:1189, killed by a jaguar 04:02 welp thanks to color just angered a bunch of peaceful elves 04:02 there were 3 trapped in the soko pits that i couldn't see because they were same color as the pits 04:04 wtf 04:05 stupid tame garter snakes hatched from eggs, then one of them hid in an object 04:05 <@cpittman> I thought there was an option to change out peacefuls look but I can't find it 04:05 and when i tried to move it off an item that it was hiding in 04:06 <@cpittman> draw_tame? 04:06 You kill the poor garter snake! You hear the rumble of distant thunder... 04:07 you would think this variant would be perfected by now 04:08 so draw tame should be off 04:08 !whereis anselmus 04:08 Umbire: [hdf-us] anselmus [nh4]: No details available 04:08 <@fredriq> anselmus: fiqhack added a bunch of options to emulate the NH3 look, but people were never satisfied with my attempts. Ultimately I concluded it a lost cause for now until I could perhaps look into creating a fully accurate tty windowport emulator 04:08 let's try that 04:08 Legit is it even still actively developed 04:09 I never bothered to ask about that 04:09 <@fredriq> fiqhack fixes annoyances with hiding peacefuls/pets, I don't remember what I did though 04:09 fredriq: well this is nh4 04:09 <@fredriq> might just have made it so that they never decided to hide 04:10 <@fredriq> yeah I know it isn't helpful for you, sorry 04:10 ok lol 04:11 <@fredriq> anyway, out of curiousity, what is the issue with colors in nh4? 04:11 i know ais is still around, so i assumed if he wasn't still working on it that it was considered completed 04:11 <@fredriq> if this is an accessibility problem, I could look into addressing it and throw a PR K2's way 04:12 hidden monsters due to same color 04:12 think there was another variant recently with that same issue 04:12 <@fredriq> what do you mean? 04:12 trapped peaceful elves in soko pits were invisible 04:12 <@fredriq> hm 04:12 <@fredriq> ohh I understand what you mean 04:13 actually still invisible after becoming hostile 04:13 <@fredriq> they aren't invisible, the issue is that tiles with traps are colored with cyan background 04:13 <@fredriq> and this overrides everything else 04:13 <@fredriq> also, the default NH4 palette is awful 04:14 <@fredriq> you might want to mess with that setting to get more distinct colors 04:14 found it thanks 04:14 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) was sent a magma elemental by His Holiness, on T:10568 (6:01:03) 04:14 <@fredriq> I would suggest not disabling draw_tame or draw_peaceful 04:14 k 04:15 <@fredriq> unless you know the implications 04:15 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) killed the Largest Giant, on T:57609 (1 day, 7:42:09) 04:15 <@fredriq> the settings will highlight tame and peaceful monsters respectively with blue and brown background 04:15 <@fredriq> the issue wrt the trap thing is that trap bg trumps peaceful (and tame) bg 04:16 <@fredriq> but if you do want those backgrounds gone, you might also want to disable draw_detected 04:16 <@fredriq> it highlights monsters seen with telepathy with purple bg 04:17 <@fredriq> I never liked this feature so I tend to disable it either way 04:17 no i think i'm getting used to bg 04:17 <@fredriq> ok 04:17 <@fredriq> draw_detected's background overrides tame and peaceful bg 04:17 this is only like my third game so the real bitching is still to come 04:17 <@fredriq> which is a major reason I usually disable that setting 04:18 i'll see if that makes a difference 04:18 <@fredriq> because I don't really care to know when I can only see monsters due to telepathy, but I do want to know when a monster is peaceful or tame 04:19 <@fredriq> !tell ais523 idk why you decided to implement the draw_detected option, but IMO it really shouldn't override tame and peaceful bg 04:19 Will do, @fredriq! 04:20 wow, so if a pet garter snake is hiding in an item, moving into it will attack it without prompting 04:20 that doesn't seem right 04:21 <@fredriq> iirc nh4's movecommand default isn't ideal 04:21 <@fredriq> try to set it to "attackhostile" 04:21 <@fredriq> as opposed to.. whatever the default is 04:21 <@fredriq> this way, you need to prefix peaceful/tame attacking with F 04:22 i don't see attackhostile or safepet 04:22 <@fredriq> it's under movecommand 04:22 <@fredriq> in Game options 04:22 <@fredriq> I am on phone so I can't printscreen the option 04:22 <@fredriq> sorry 04:23 well it didn't work lol 04:23 <@fredriq> that sounds like a bug 04:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] efw (Pri Hum Mal Law) attained the rank of Curate (level 14), on T:11147 04:24 <@fredriq> I'm on phone so I can't look into it atm but will try to figure it out later 04:24 <@fredriq> sorry for the inconveniences 04:25 you've been very helpful :) 04:25 these garter snakes are unbelievably annoying 04:25 * anselmus just murders them 04:25 <@fredriq> btw what did you mean with "why does nethack promote racism/discrimination with surcharging"? 04:26 <@fredriq> Yeah that was typically my own way of... ah, "dealing" with tame hiders in NH 04:26 just bitching about price id 04:26 <@fredriq> hmm I should really finish idcheck in my variant 04:26 <@fredriq> I'm sure there will be no controversy about it whatsoever 04:27 sometimes you see 266, 352 and all you feel is rage 04:28 <@fredriq> (idcheck is a command in fiqhack designed to show you a table of possible things that an object can be alongside probabilities based on what you know of the object so far) 04:29 <@fredriq> it currently only handles weight, but I meant for it to handle everything; price knowledge, engraving effect, sink outcome etc 04:29 oh you're the fiq dev 04:29 <@fredriq> yep 04:30 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) destroyed arthur's ghost, the former Thaumaturge, on T:3038 04:30 thought it was aosdict 04:30 <@fredriq> aosdict works on xnethack 04:30 ah 04:31 i made it to orcus in fiq this june 04:33 <@fredriq> YANI: instead of a random dummy tax, shop keeper asking price for items varies on a per-shop basis between 1x-2x of base price biased towards the lower end (square root of 1x-4x or similar) 04:33 <@fredriq> Heh, nice 04:33 <@fredriq> what happened at Orcus? 04:35 didn't have fire res and didn't know about dragon breath so died to a red D 04:35 yeah i don't know why surcharging exists except to annoy players 04:35 <@fredriq> ahh I see 04:36 <@fredriq> fire res within Gehennom generally isn't recommended in any variant 04:36 <@cpittman> Are all shopkeepers human? 04:36 it has no impact on the game itself 04:36 <@fredriq> since fire traps reduce max HP if you lack fire resistance 04:36 i've seen openly racist shopkeepers in some variants 04:37 yeah this being junethack i didn't have the luxury of preparing or even learning about the variant lol 04:39 I don't think it fits the term "promoting" if you hate them. 04:39 bhaak: Message from @Spider74656 at 2023-06-30 02:14 EDT: the Junethack.net website isn't letting people log into their user accounts; both anselmus & I tried, and couldn't log in. 04:39 Beholder: this is even truer now than it was then 04:40 lol 04:41 <@cpittman> My DM threw in a slightly racist shopkeep in one of our games. It turned into a small campaign to annoy him, but ended with accidentally running his business into the ground... ) : 04:42 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) rejected atheism by offering a dwarf corpse on an altar of Hermes, on T:5238 04:42 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) was bestowed with Demonbane by Hermes, on T:5238 04:43 [hdf-us] [nh4] cpittman (Bar Hum Mal Cha), 28416 points, T:1552, killed by a giant bat 04:44 they could maybe stop giving them muslim names lol 04:47 [hdf-us] [nh370] efw (Pri Hum Mal Law) killed Nalzok, on T:11829 04:47 [hdf-us] [nh370] efw (Pri Hum Mal Law) found the Mitre of Holiness carried by a monster, on T:11829 04:47 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:58247 (1 day, 8:06:30) 04:47 [hdf-us] [nh370] efw (Pri Hum Mal Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:11830 04:48 ...Muslim names? 04:48 well that's what they sound to me 04:48 <@fredriq> in fiqhack, the mitre of holiness is adorned with antennae to strengthen reception to your god, meaning you can pray even in Gehennom 😛 04:49 "middle eastern" 04:49 may or may not be a you problem 04:49 Evil's Mitre also does that iir 04:49 <@fredriq> what monster is named islamic names? 04:49 i live in america, so yes it could be a problem for some 04:50 <@fredriq> I know some variants give seducing monsters names 04:50 <@fredriq> I assume we aren't talking about those 04:50 he's talking about shopkeepers 04:50 <@fredriq> (also those names are Greek iirc) 04:50 <@fredriq> ahh 04:50 <@fredriq> aren't shopkeepers named after contributors? 04:51 <@fredriq> I think that's the case in vanilla 04:51 shopkeep names comes from multiple locations 04:51 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Goblin King, on T:2729 (1:38:42) 04:51 and just at a glance majority of them sound everything but Arabic/West Asian/what have you 04:52 half the time I look to see if it's somebody's (user)name backwards or an anagram first 04:53 [11:50] <+rld> <@fredriq> aren't shopkeepers named after contributors? 04:53 whoops 04:53 <@fredriq> hmm? 04:53 https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/blob/NetHack-3.7/src/shknam.c#L32 04:53 are we not talking about vanilla? 04:53 tool shopkeep names are dev anagrams 04:54 oic 04:54 hell of a lot more eastern european names than even I pegged 04:54 <@fredriq> as a Swede, I don't recognize a single one of these "Scandinavian" names 04:55 i certainly recognize finnish names in there 04:55 <@fredriq> "Lulea" is semi-close to a Swedish place (Luleå) but that's about it 04:55 ha had no idea it became so international 04:55 i think the swedish ones are fells mostly? 04:56 oh hardy har har 04:56 who can forget y-crad 04:57 that's one of the dev anagram ones 04:57 <@fredriq> Southern Sweden is basically all forest. We have some fells in Northen parts, but I think Norway is more famous for it 04:58 <@fredriq> @paxed Finland isn't Scandinavia though 😛 04:58 <@fredriq> "only" Nordic 04:58 <@fredriq> and yeah a lot of those names do look Finnish 04:58 so Tibet, Indonesia, and basically half of Europe then 05:15 -!- docpi has joined #hardfought 05:16 <@fredriq> YASI: naming a demon Maxwell will print a YAFM about Maxwell lowering entropy each time it attacks 05:24 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:7913 05:27 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 15349 points, T:10410, killed by a mountain centaur 05:29 <@cpittman> "Finland isn't Scandinavia, though" me: "Are you sure?" - That's some peak American for July 4. 05:37 [hdf-us] [hackm] Umbire (Wiz Ith Fem Cha) destroyed the invisible 9629's ghost, the former Bandit, on T:5995 (1:50:34) 05:37 ...oh well they died on a magic trap 05:37 so I have see invis now 05:37 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41 [hdf-us] [nh4] cpittman (Kni Hum Mal Law), 34427 points, T:1909, killed by a soldier ant 05:42 [hdf-us] [dnh] Snuffburger (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2217 05:43 <@cpittman> Damn ants. Was on the oracle level and about to go downstairs to find sokoban when I hit 5th level. Decided to try for excalibur since there were a bunch of fountains. There was a soldier ant right around the corner and poisoned me 05:43 Go team a! 05:43 [hdf-eu] [nh343] Raisse (Sam Hum Fem Law), 74 points, T:12, killed by an exploding rune 05:47 -!- moon-child has quit [Server closed connection] 05:47 -!- moon-child has joined #hardfought 05:48 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) eschewed atheism, by dropping 22 wooden darts on an altar, on T:3291 (2:35:28) 05:50 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 356 points, T:1688, killed by an iguana 05:53 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 232 points, T:878, killed by a land mine 05:55 <@cpittman> I don't think I've ever made it to Sokoban at xp:3 05:55 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Sokoban bag of holding, on T:24458 05:55 <@cpittman> Or under 1,000 turns 05:57 <@fredriq> YANI: Amulets of life saving are only generated accompanied with a lich. Killing the lich off permanently requires that you destroy the amulet, otherwise the lich comes back after 1k turns. Genocided liches causes amulets of life saving to stop working 05:58 !PoM 05:58 APic: The moon is full for 2 more days. 06:00 -!- anselmus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00 <@cpittman> I mean, the first 2/3 of that idea isn't bad. I don't get why genociding liches would cause amulets to stop working. But a maybe better version of that idea is to give some/all liches a phylactory. 06:01 <@cpittman> I was almost killed by a cornered leprechaun punching me to death 06:05 That's the idea, the AoLS is the phylactery in that setup 06:07 <@cpittman> Yeah, I was just saying the last part doesn't make sense 06:08 No liches, no phylacteries, thus no coming back to life 06:08 For them or you 06:09 Though, I'm assuming the amulet revives you as normal if worn 06:11 <@cpittman> That might be what they meant, but that's not how I read it 06:12 -!- Bleeko has joined #hardfought 06:12 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Mal Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:4238 06:13 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) was chosen to take lives for the Glory of Mars, on T:25436 06:18 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed Gollum, on T:1256 (0:36:06) 06:28 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 8798 points, T:3820, killed by an owlbear 06:29 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2339 06:39 [hdf-us] [ndnh] bleeko (Acu Swn Fem Law), 36 points, T:197, killed by Amon 06:40 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed the Goblin King, on T:2827 (0:46:46) 06:40 -!- CAT_S has joined #hardfought 06:41 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law) made his first wish - "blessed +2 Grayswandir", on T:2863 (0:47:56) 06:54 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Leeroy (Mon Hlf Mal Law), 9048 points, T:4222, killed by a watchman 06:54 YANI: Variants with playable giants that give them intrinsic hunger should also apply the same to players that polymorph into any giant (or titan). 06:59 [hdf-us] [ndnh] bleeko (Acu Swn Fem Law) killed Andrealphus, on T:627 07:00 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law) rejected atheism by offering a rock gnome corpse on an altar of Amaterasu Omikami, on T:5236 (1:06:55) 07:05 <@fredriq> !tell aosdict https://nethack-yanis.github.io/yanis/1838.html no it is not implemented in FIQHack 07:05 No worries, @fredriq, I've got this! 07:05 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:14175 07:15 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) wished for "blessed +2 dragonhide toque of drain resistance", on T:58686 (1 day, 8:53:35) 07:15 [hdf-us] [nh4] cpittman (Kni Hum Mal Law), 44645 points, T:5096, killed by a fall onto poison spikes 07:16 <@cpittman> I was hoping Excalibur would spot a spiked pit before I ran into it. 07:17 Not something you wanna rely on 07:20 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law) had Snickersnee bestowed upon him by Amaterasu Omikami, on T:7560 (1:27:04) 07:20 <@cpittman> Yeah, but how many poisoned spike pits are there before gnome town? 07:21 It's the Mines 07:21 lmao 07:21 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law), 14475 points, T:7668, killed by a wand 07:21 <@cpittman> Fair point 07:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) wished for "blessed luckstone", got "a stone called luck", on T:28178 07:22 <@cpittman> Knew I couldn't trust a sword that some lady was handing out at a fountain. 07:25 it certainly isn't a solid basis for a system of government 07:26 [hdf-us] [ndnh] bleeko (Acu Swn Fem Law) entered the adventure town for the first time, on T:1252 07:26 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (class L), on T:28280 07:40 -!- Umbire has quit [Quit: Umbire zaps a wand of digging!] 07:41 [hdf-us] [ndnh] bleeko (Acu Swn Fem Law), 5013 points, T:1566, killed by Ahazu 07:46 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) wished for "blessed +2 dragonhide Hawaiian shirt of acid", on T:58994 (1 day, 9:13:11) 07:47 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) made her first artifact wish - "blessed fixed +2 Bat from Hell", on T:59008 (1 day, 9:14:23) 07:52 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) wished for "magic marker", on T:59013 (1 day, 9:19:13) 07:53 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:2688 (0:10:29) 07:54 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 07:54 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 3653 points, T:2918, killed by a warg 07:55 -!- Umbire has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06 [hdf-us] [hackm] Umbire (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 16179 points, T:15017, killed by a bullet ant 08:07 [hdf-us] [nh370] inlawBiker (Hea Hum Mal Neu) was bestowed with Cleaver by Hermes, on T:14956 08:12 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 918 points, T:935, killed by a rock gnome, while sleeping 08:13 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:16754 08:15 [hdf-us] [hackm] Umbire (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 985 points, T:1302, killed by a rabid dog 08:16 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) had a pair of cloth gloves entrusted to her by Mog, on T:71708 (22:32:59) 08:21 [hdf-us] [nh370] inlawBiker (Hea Hum Mal Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:16437 08:22 -!- Bleeko has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:26 <@Umbyre (he/him)> Got decently far for how much I misplayed my first game but I think I can get used to Hack'EM 08:26 <@Umbyre (he/him)> anyway Origin is in this shop, whatever that is 08:31 <@Umbyre (he/him)> and stolen, whoo 08:32 [hdf-us] [nh370] rancat (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed the invisible Orcus, on T:35975 08:33 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) wished for "7 candles", got "7 candles", on T:31751 08:35 [hdf-au] [xnh] Moult (Hea Gno Mal Neu) was bestowed with Giantslayer by Hermes, on T:21093 08:36 uh 08:36 is that useful at all 08:37 <@Umbyre (he/him)> It's an artifact you can use so almost by definition 08:38 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) wished for "blessed Wallet of Perseus", on T:59518 (1 day, 9:47:16) 08:38 <@Umbyre (he/him)> unfortunately it's not much more useful to you currently than the vanilla one would be 08:39 according to https://thinkmoult.com/nethack-damage-calculator.html it seems as though my unicorn horn outperforms giantslayer quite a bit 08:39 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:31899 08:39 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:31901 08:41 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) performed the invocation, on T:31956 08:42 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor (2nd time), on T:31965 08:42 -!- froggles has joined #hardfought 08:43 i guess all it means is that it's now going to take longer before i get my next sacrifice artiweapon :( 08:52 [hdf-us] [nh370] inlawBiker (Hea Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Sokoban amulet of reflection, on T:21132 08:53 <@Umbyre (he/him)> imma dip for now 08:53 <@Umbyre (he/him)> later 08:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) killed the high priestess of Moloch, on T:32234 08:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) acquired The Amulet of Yendor, on T:32236 08:59 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:03 [hdf-us] [xnh] Gouhan (Sam Hum Mal Law) was given Excalibur by the Lady of the Lake, on T:2133 09:05 <@cpittman> Grayswandir is just sitting in a shop in Gnome Town 09:07 <@cpittman> With that kind of luck the amulet next to it is reflection or life saving 09:08 -!- Graznop_ has joined #hardfought 09:08 -!- Graznop is now known as Guest5313 09:08 -!- Graznop_ is now known as Graznop 09:09 -!- Guest5313 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:11 [hdf-eu] [xnh] breadmaster (Sam Hum Fem Law) entered Sokoban, on T:4911 09:12 [hdf-us] [xnh] Gouhan (Sam Hum Mal Law) became literate by engraving "abc", on T:3190 09:13 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) changed form for the first time by mimicking a pile of gold, on T:18450 09:14 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) attained the rank of Arbalester (level 18), on T:32908 09:16 [hdf-us] [evil] nabru (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:923 (0:09:39) 09:20 [hdf-us] [evil] nabru (Inf Ith Fem Una), 2102 points, T:1203, killed by an arrow 09:28 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 09:40 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) entered the Elemental Planes, on T:33611 09:40 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) entered Plane of Earth, on T:33611 09:41 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor (3rd time), on T:33612 09:43 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) entered Plane of Air, on T:33677 09:44 -!- neoxy has joined #hardfought 09:44 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Inc Fem Neu) killed the first wraithworm, on T:12012 09:44 -!- neoxy has quit [Client Quit] 09:45 -!- neoxy has joined #hardfought 09:45 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) wished for "blessed tooled horn", got "a horn called tooled", on T:33712 09:46 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) entered Plane of Fire, on T:33729 09:46 [hdf-us] [nh370] inlawBiker (Hea Hum Mal Neu) entered the Bigroom, on T:23825 09:47 <@fredriq> @cpittman or strangulation 09:47 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) entered Plane of Water, on T:33737 09:47 <@fredriq> RNG giveth, RNG takes away 09:47 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) genocided class ;, on T:33737 09:47 <@cpittman> It's vs poison. But given how the last 2 games ended, that's still pretty lucky 09:48 <@cpittman> I actually made it to Mine's End 09:49 -!- neoxy has quit [Client Quit] 09:49 -!- neoxy has joined #hardfought 09:50 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) entered the Astral Plane, on T:33830 09:51 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu) killed Pestilence, on T:33836 09:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Ran Gno Fem Neu), 2091128 points, T:33860, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/P/Prokythera/nethack/dumplog/1685324666.nh.html 09:57 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Cha) was given the Marauder's Map, on T:7091 10:00 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 10:00 -!- raisse has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:00 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Inc Fem Neu) was given their Quest, on T:14407 10:08 [hdf-us] [nh370] Flench (Tou Hum Fem Neu) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1587 10:09 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) destroyed Kas, on T:60676 (1 day, 10:49:47) 10:12 [hdf-us] [xnh] Gouhan (Sam Hum Mal Law) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:8692 10:18 [hdf-us] [nh370] Flench (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 1566 points, T:2308, killed by a cave spider 10:22 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) was bestowed with Magicbane by Camaxtli, on T:12630 10:23 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:12430 10:23 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse 10:26 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Inc Fem Neu) killed the Master of Thieves, on T:17470 10:27 [hdf-us] [un] bismatum (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed Medusa, on T:83078 10:27 -!- froggles has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:30 -!- Bleeko has joined #hardfought 10:33 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a homunculus, on T:13258 10:36 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) became literate by engraving "asdfasddf", on T:6482 (0:46:54) 10:38 [hdf-eu] [nh343] Raisse (Sam Hum Fem Law), 8299 points, T:2907, killed by a spotted jelly 10:41 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:3265 (0:13:07) 10:45 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Elf Fem Cha), 11730 points, T:9827, killed by a troll 10:46 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3985 (0:18:10) 10:51 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) made his first wish - "blessed greased The Eye of the Aethiopica", got "a greased amulet of ESP named the Eye of the Aethiopica", on T:13815 10:52 -!- neoxy has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in] 10:53 -!- neoxy has joined #hardfought 10:53 I wonder whether demons hear mortal souls branchporting through the Dungeon with the Eye just like people hear their upstairs neighbors pushing their furniture around on the floor all the time. 10:57 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Inc Fem Neu) killed the invisible Medusa, on T:22419 10:58 -!- neoxy has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in] 10:59 [hdf-us] [xnh] Gouhan (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered Sokoban, on T:13818 11:00 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:14828 11:01 -!- neoxy has joined #hardfought 11:03 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 11:06 [hdf-us] [hackm] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Mal Neu) had Drowsing Rod bestowed upon him by Hermes, on T:5076 (2:37:33) 11:06 -!- wvc has joined #hardfought 11:06 -!- neoxy has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in] 11:07 Hello I'd like to report a bug/strange behaviour in xNetHack 11:07 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Hum Fem Neu), 44 points, T:102, killed by a magic missile zapped by a goblin 11:09 If a large mimic holding you and you scare him with Magicbane it is possible that mimic can flee away from you without releasing you first 11:09 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) destroyed Vecna, on T:61088 (1 day, 11:19:01) 11:09 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Elf Fem Cha) chose an elven dagger to be named "Sting", on T:3 11:11 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) changed form for the first time, becoming a werejackal, on T:4268 11:13 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 11:13 -!- neoxy has joined #hardfought 11:14 So you mean, wvc, that you are still stuck in place, but the mimic has moved away? 11:15 -!- neoxy has quit [Client Quit] 11:15 -!- neoxy has joined #hardfought 11:16 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 11:20 [hdf-us] [xnh] Gouhan (Sam Hum Mal Law), 20873 points, T:16174, killed by a fire elemental 11:21 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Mon Hum Mal Law) acquired the Sokoban bag of holding, on T:8296 11:21 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:22 docpi: yes the mimic was two tiles away but I got message that I can't escape from the mimic 11:23 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 432 points, T:955, killed by a wand 11:24 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 11:25 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) had Kiku-ichimonji bestowed upon her by Amaterasu Omikami, on T:12398 (1:35:55) 11:28 -!- cathartes has joined #hardfought 11:32 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Aphrodite, on T:11440 (6:37:30) 11:35 -!- Graznop has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:35 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law), 1340 points, T:1366, poisoned by a rotted human corpse, while praying 11:35 -!- Bleeko has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:38 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) completed Sokoban, acquiring an amulet of reflection, on T:14224 (1:48:48) 11:38 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 20970 points, T:10373, killed by a gnoll hunter 11:44 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:3893 11:48 -!- Graznop has joined #hardfought 11:48 -!- Noisytoot has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:49 -!- cathartes has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:51 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:4858 11:53 [hdf-us] [xnh] merget (Arc Hum Fem Neu), 513 points, T:1385, killed by a gnome lord 11:53 -!- Noisytoot has joined #hardfought 11:54 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:5505 11:57 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:59 -!- cathartes has joined #hardfought 12:00 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Sokoban amulet of reflection, on T:16851 12:04 YASI: dipping an object into a potion of enlightenment makes it lighter 12:04 ais523: Message from @fredriq at 2023-07-04 04:19 EDT: idk why you decided to implement the draw_detected option, but IMO it really shouldn't override tame and peaceful bg 12:05 @fredriq: I implemented it because it was in vanilla 12:05 and I didn't really want to go backwards with respect to UI options 12:05 maybe there isn't a reason to keep it in, though? 12:05 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Cha) killed Cerberus, on T:16541 12:06 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) polymorphed his first item, on T:12004 (7:10:40) 12:07 [hdf-eu] [xnh] DeVoid (Pri Hum Mal Neu) was bestowed with Demonbane by The Lady, on T:18099 12:08 ais, that is already the logic with gain level 12:08 enlightenment+levitation = gain level is a joke like that i think 12:08 hmm, possibly? it's less obvious 12:11 YASI: eating an amulet of reflection gives enlightenment: "You reflect on your inner self." 12:14 YASI: priest monsters can quaff a potion of hallucination to become high priests 12:16 [hdf-us] [hackm] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Mal Neu) made his first wish - "historic very thoroughly unlit rustproof unlabeled locked very platinum yendorian express card named charge!", on T:6747 (3:47:52) 12:17 -!- crunchbubba has joined #hardfought 12:17 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the invisible Orcus, on T:37905 12:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered Sokoban, on T:7555 12:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:38324 12:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:38326 12:25 [hdf-eu] [xnh] DeVoid (Pri Hum Mal Neu) was bestowed with Ogresmasher by The Lady, on T:19848 12:26 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) attained the rank of Excavator (level 14), on T:19068 12:28 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 12:33 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed Gollum, on T:835 (0:04:46) 12:35 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 1111 points, T:1278, killed by a bolt of cold 12:36 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Mon Hum Fem Law) destroyed xororand's ghost, the former Acolyte, on T:4863 12:37 -!- stoicjin has joined #hardfought 12:37 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:3011 12:38 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 5658 points, T:4961, killed by a warg 12:39 hello 12:39 Hello stoicjin, Welcome to #hardfought 12:40 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) entered the Bigroom, on T:25828 12:40 -!- stoicjin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41 -!- stoicjin has joined #hardfought 12:44 -!- stoicjin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45 -!- stoicjin has joined #hardfought 12:45 -!- Bleeko has joined #hardfought 12:45 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) killed Aphrodite, on T:18879 (2:31:38) 12:47 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:4269 12:47 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) consumed animal products (fortune cookie) for the first time, on T:4338 12:48 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:2981 (0:12:25) 12:50 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Grund, on T:13271 (7:55:33) 12:52 -!- Dingotron2 has joined #hardfought 12:55 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:5576 13:00 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Elf Fem Cha), 3065 points, T:4678, quit 13:01 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) performed his first annihilation (disenchanters), on T:13303 (8:06:34) 13:03 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) destroyed thorsb's ghost, the former Dresser, on T:28022 13:06 [hdf-us] [nh370] masterofpi (Bar Orc Mal Cha) was bestowed with Cleaver by Set, on T:11245 13:08 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) was bestowed with The Apple of Discord by Huan Ti, on T:6628 13:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Mon Hum Fem Law) entered Sokoban, on T:5850 13:11 K2 malor (I think you are the only ones connected that are mentioned in the nethack scoreboard About page) I see a whole lot of zeros when I try to look at zscores, such as https://nethackscoreboard.org/zscore.nh.html      just a heads up 13:11 oop mobileuser 13:13 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) consulted the Oracle, on T:7516 13:14 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) became literate by naming Sting, on T:2291 13:14 crunchbubba: might be interested in #nethackscoreboard, and I think they already know about it 13:15 thanks. I was just trying to figure out what I should play to perhaps increase my zscore, and didn't figure I was the first to notice (probably) 13:15 yup malor runs the NHS 13:15 i just stand around and look pretty 13:16 sort of 13:16 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) was bestowed with Orcrist by Anhur, on T:39409 13:17 keep up the good work, then, K2 13:17 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) tasted meat for the first time, by eating a floating eye corpse, on T:8265 13:18 [hdf-eu] [nh370] nurdglaw (Rog Orc Fem Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:2886 13:18 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 5514 points, T:9944, killed by a giant mimic 13:19 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:8752 13:22 -!- stoicjin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) had an orcish scimitar bestowed upon her by the storm, on T:61488 (1 day, 11:28:18) 13:23 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Cha) was given their Quest, on T:21274 13:24 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 9332 points, T:7625, killed by a blue jelly 13:24 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) performed his first genocide (class ;), on T:21594 13:25 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Tiamat, the Fiend of Wind, on T:36518 13:25 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) killed Croesus, on T:21617 13:25 -!- guestosao has joined #hardfought 13:28 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Garland, on T:36766 13:28 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed Gollum, on T:1097 (0:04:46) 13:31 [hdf-eu] [nh370] nurdglaw (Rog Orc Fem Cha) became literate by engraving "Elbereth", on T:3484 13:32 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:1718 (0:08:27) 13:33 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 2327 points, T:1852, killed by a warg 13:35 [hdf-us] [hackm] Ardub (Yeo Cen Mal Neu) killed Ruggo the Gnome King, on T:14671 (8:39:38) 13:39 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 8391 points, T:7940, killed by a gold golem, while fainted from lack of food 13:41 [hdf-eu] [nh370] nurdglaw (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 1552 points, T:3634, killed by a Woodland-elf 13:41 <@fredriq> @ais523 ...you realize that vanilla uses inverse for both telepathy and tame, right? 13:41 Wow dragon scales have additional effects now? 13:42 Like blue dragon scales give speed 13:42 <@fredriq> so it makes no decision on what to priority because both are equal 😛 13:42 -!- guestosao has quit [Quit: Client closed] 13:46 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the invisible Gollum, on T:3096 (0:13:29) 13:47 [hdf-eu] [xnh] DeVoid (Pri Hum Mal Neu) attained the rank of Curate (level 14), on T:22315 13:47 wvc: I have a suspicion that the additional effects were balanced against 3.4.3 ideas of which dragon colors were strongest, rather than 3.7 ideas 13:48 the strongest dragon colors in 3.4.3 are silver, gray, then (a long way back) yellow 13:48 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) polymorphed her first item, on T:3493 (0:14:58) 13:48 in 3.7, I suspect that for ascension kit purposes (rather than as a piece of armor on its own), blue is strongest even without the added speed 13:48 and thus, giving it possibly the best secondary effect is a mistake 13:49 but I think it's more interesting to wait a version or two to see what happens in the DSM metagame than it is to balance that pre-emptively 13:50 @fredriq: it strikes me that perhaps a better change in general would be to somehow distinguish which map squares were out of sight whether or not there was a monster on them 13:50 then, detected highlighting would be redundant 13:50 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Mon Hum Mal Law) hit with a wielded weapon (pick-axe) for the first time, on T:11035 13:50 but, at least in 16-color terminals, there probably aren't enough different-looking ways to render in order to make that viable 13:51 you could do it in a truecolor terminal by dimming the foreground and background of out-of-sight squares slightly 13:51 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Mon Hum Mal Law) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:11149 13:51 <@fredriq> ais523: What made blue DSM stronger? 13:52 <@fredriq> It gives shock immunity and nothing else (well, until now I guess?) 13:52 it protects wands and rings from shock attacks 13:52 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 2010 points, T:3085, killed by a werewolf 13:52 <@fredriq> Wait, really? Are we talking about vanilla? 13:52 yes, vanilla 13:52 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) killed the Goblin King, on T:4545 (0:19:17) 13:52 this, combined with the MC nerf 13:52 <@fredriq> Extrinsics providing immunities is a thing in some variants, but at least in the past, that wasn't a thing in vanilla 13:53 <@fredriq> MC was nerfed again? 13:53 not beyond 3.6 levels 13:53 <@fredriq> Oh ok 13:53 but those are enough to make shocking spheres a real threat 13:53 <@fredriq> >@fredriq: it strikes me that perhaps a better change in general would be to somehow distinguish which map squares were out of sight whether or not there was a monster on them 13:53 <@fredriq> NH4 has been doing this for a long time, no? 13:53 to the extent that I've considered adding them to the "summon nasties" list (although that would have bad interactions with mosnters that polymorph into nasties) 13:54 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Cha) destroyed Blackbeard's Ghost, on T:22838 13:54 <@fredriq> in fact, I think even vanilla has that nowdays with "darkroom" 13:54 NH4 and vanilla both do it for floors, but treat them as out of sight if they're unlit but coudlsee 13:54 * couldsee 13:54 I just wear non-metallic gloves and stick all my wands in a bag. extrinsic shock protection isn't that necessary 13:54 <@fredriq> ^ this has been my standard strategy for years, even before lightning became more of a threat 13:54 for characters with infravision, you can see most monsters on couldsee && !cansee squares, and those don't count as detected 13:55 <@fredriq> For what it's worth, I really dislike ring destruction 13:55 are you playing wizards? 13:55 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Inc Fem Neu) averted death, on T:24443 13:55 <@fredriq> Because I consider rings to be gear rather than consumables 13:55 <@fredriq> And gear shouldn't be that easy to destroy imo 13:55 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Cha) wished for "blessed fixed greased +2 Tie-Dye Shirt of Shambhala", on T:22853 13:55 <@fredriq> Yeah I play wiz most of the time 13:55 ah, that makes more sense 13:55 I'm playing many different roles. 13:55 don't need gauntlets of power 13:55 melee bashers are rather reliant on wands in current NetHack and it's tedious to bag and unbag them all the time 13:56 <@fredriq> ais523: Maybe that's why I didn't consider wand destruction to be as big of a problem as others 🙂 13:56 -!- docpi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:56 (and you need a second bag for wands of cancellation, assuming you use a BoH like most people) 13:56 [hdf-us] [nh370] Prokythera (Mon Hum Fem Law), 10285 points, T:8942, killed by a rabid rat, while frozen by a floating eye's gaze 13:56 <@fredriq> for a long time in fiqhack, I stood firm wrt "you don't like your wands destroyed? put them in a bag then" 13:56 <@fredriq> I still think there's nothing wrong with this, but I added measures to reduce wand destruction because nobody agreed with me lol 13:57 I think it's OK for wands/scrolls/potions to be destroyable but there should be ways to mitigate it, for the characters who care 13:57 also that "just bag it except when using it" isn't a very interesting way to mitigate it 13:57 <@fredriq> ais523: That might be true, but it was still a valid defense is what I was saying 13:57 I'm currently writing a Junethack playtesting review in which I'm arguing that there should be ways other than bagging to mitigate scroll/potion destruction that are usable in the early game (and that don't necessarily have to be usable late game) 13:58 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had Secespita bestowed upon her by Moloch, on T:5915 (0:24:38) 13:58 <@fredriq> People constantly complained about item destruction in the wand balance patch 13:58 <@fredriq> Some people called it the "Wand Destruction Patch" as a result lol 13:58 as for gear destruction, I think it isn't necessarily a bad thing but the game isn't very balanced around it at the moment 13:58 I call it that cause I think its a funny name 13:58 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 13:58 <@fredriq> I think it's like 90% of the reason as to why the wand rebalance patch was as controversial as it was 13:59 I didn't even know thats why it got called that 13:59 <@fredriq> Nowdays in fiqhack, extrinsics protect against item destruction 13:59 -!- anselmus has joined #hardfought 13:59 I think extrinsics protecting against item destruction is just generally a good thing for lots of different reasons 13:59 <@fredriq> And since fiqhack has object properties, you can equip shock immunity if you want to have wands out without fear of destruction 14:00 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had a pair of water walking boots entrusted to her by Moloch, on T:6361 (0:26:53) 14:00 <@fredriq> (Continuing the trend of the elemental rings being mostly useless, but oh well) 14:00 <@fredriq> hmm I wonder what DSM intrinsics was added 14:01 <@fredriq> several variants have several different ways to balance them 14:01 most of them are marginal, but blue = extrinsic speed is a pretty big deal 14:01 <@fredriq> in terms of which bonus intrinsics you get 14:01 black = drain resistance is probably relevant for some playstyles 14:01 and orange is free action, I think? not sure on that one 14:02 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Dragon_scale_mail 14:02 <@fredriq> fiqhack's list is as follows: Red=Infra+Warn+SeeInvis, White=Waterproof+FIQHackAutosearch+Swim+MBreath, Orange=FreeAction, Black=DrainRes, Blue=Speed+AntiSlow, Green=SickRes, Yellow=PetrifyRes, Shimmer=StunRes 14:03 <@fredriq> ah it's on the wiki already? cool 14:03 green = sickness res, gold = hallu res, orange = free action, red = infravision, white = slow digestion, yellow = stoning resistance 14:03 slow digestion on white may actually be a nerf rather than a buff :-D 14:03 <@fredriq> interesting choice for white 14:04 <@fredriq> Red and white gives a ton of additional things because nobody used them even after the initial buffs 14:04 <@fredriq> in fiqhack that is 14:04 red should give flight 14:04 I think there should be some color that gives flight 14:04 but none of them really fit flavorwise 14:04 <@fredriq> in the end I think they are comparable for the most part, but Luxidream considers blue DSM to be the strongest 14:04 <@fredriq> due to how dangerous Slow is 14:04 heat rises 14:05 <@fredriq> ais523: gold could give flight, "holy" 14:06 flight+light is a linguistically interesting combination 14:06 <@fredriq> speaking of DSM buffs, ais523 have you seen the changes FIQHack did to searching? it's on the wiki https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Search#FIQHack 14:07 I sort-of understand what properties I want a searching mechanic to have, but it's hard to design one with those properties 14:07 -!- Chris_ANG has joined #hardfought 14:08 you want it so that players can determine deterministically whether there is a trap/secret door/(secret corridor, but those maybe shouldn't exist at all and if they do should be less obvious) on a given square 14:08 <@fredriq> the goal of my changes to searching was to make it less frustrating to find hidden places, and to make extrinsic searching more worthwhile 14:08 but that guessing wrong a lot has a penalty, e.g. nutrition in current NetHack 14:08 I play with extrinsic searching a *lot*, it is nice to have even in vanilla, it would probably lose the slot competiton to many other trinsics though 14:08 [hdf-eu] [ndnh] Noisytoot (Bar Eth Mal Neu) consulted the oracle for the first time, on T:6077 14:08 <@fredriq> the most notable changes my variant does is: at base Luck, a manual search will 100% of the time find a secret door or corridor next to you 14:08 but my default is to use Excalibur 14:09 <@fredriq> and that extrinsic search now has a radius 14:09 I do like the 100% chance, but think it should cost more than 1 turn, otherwise it's probably optimal to just alternate between 's' and movement commands 14:09 like, it would make sense to me to implement "'s' takes 20 turns and always finds everything adjacent" but that would have lots of undesirable knock-on impacts 14:10 <@fredriq> and iirc I removed Excalibur's bonus search property 14:10 e.g. you'd need some other way to do combat searching (finding invisible monsters during combat) 14:10 <@fredriq> because it didn't need the buff 14:10 what do red and white do in fiqhack? 14:10 it indeed doesn't really need the buff 14:11 -!- mode/Beholder [+Ziw] by Beholder 14:11 -!- molybdenum.libera.chat changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ ¤ public irc logs available on website ¤ ssh nethack@hardfought.org, nethack@eu.hardfought.org or nethack@au.hardfought.org ¤ Junethack 2023 has ended :( Good games everyone! https://junethack.net 14:11 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ 14:11 !ping 14:11 K2: Pong! 14:11 welcome back Beholder 14:11 did you just update it? 14:11 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) acquired the Sokoban amulet of reflection, on T:15388 14:12 yup 14:12 !who 14:12 K2: [hdf-us] masterofpi [nh370] oh6 [nh370] killer [nh370] samiam [nh370] lukas [un] KrO2 [dnh] DragonSidedD [xnh] krm26 [evil] omghax [gnoll] hothraxxa [hackm] :: [hdf-eu] nurdglaw [nh370] DeVoid [xnh] wvc [xnh] Noisytoot [ndnh] lacca [evil] mobileuser [hackm] :: [hdf-au] Arahael [evil] 14:12 !whereis omghax 14:12 K2: [hdf-us] omghax [gnoll]: (Val Dwa Fem Law) T:1 The Dungeons of Doom level: 1 14:12 [hdf-us] [gnoll] omghax (Val Dwa Fem Law), 0 points, T:15, killed by a hermit 14:13 !lastgame omghax 14:13 K2: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/o/omghax/gnollhack/dumplog/1688494321.gnoll.html :: [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/o/omghax/nethack/dumplog/1685412221.nh.html :: [hdf-au] https://au.hardfought.org/userdata/o/omghax/nethack/dumplog/1685412285.nh.html 14:13 hah they made everything huge font-wise 14:13 YUGE 14:14 I don't like that 14:14 It's far too big 14:14 i agree 14:14 <@fredriq> the exact search statistics is as follows; doors and corridors are found a/(20x2^(Distance - 1)) of the time capped at 5 tiles away. a is 20 + Luck + (ring enchantment × 5), plus 5 with lenses, mincapped at 1. Traps must, in addition to passing the above check, also pass a b/6 check, where b is 1 with intrinsic search or 2 + ring enchantment with extrinsic search. Autosearching proc 1/3 of the time with intrinsic search, or (3 + ring enchantment)/6 14:14 of the time for extrinsic search 14:15 <@fredriq> <@ais523> although, it makes for a great "newbie" weapon for learning the game with 14:15 <@fredriq> while I don't mind some roles being easier or harder, I want to mostly restrict that to the actual role choice rather than in-game items 14:16 <@fredriq> to avoid an item being an obvious "best in slot" such as Excalibur arguably is for lawfuls 14:16 Excal isn't really so much best-in-slot, as good enough and very easy to obtain 14:16 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 14:16 <@fredriq> technically Grayswandir is probably better, but Excal is trivially easy to obtain 14:16 in 3.7 valks don't start with a long sword any more 14:17 which makes it a bit harder to get Excal 14:17 (knights have a long sword, but their starting stats are bad compared to those of a valk) 14:17 <@fredriq> I think I like what SporkHack did in this case, even if I disagree with a lot of other things SporkHack did 14:17 <@fredriq> namely, only Knights can dip for Excal 14:18 <@fredriq> YANI: Archeologists never get slapped with the "dummy tax" in shops, because they would know if a shopkeeper is trying to pull a fast one in terms of object value 14:18 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Elf Fem Cha) chose an elven dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1 14:19 Allowing only knights to dip for Excalibur is bad unless you allow lawful crowned players as well 14:19 or you get nothing unless you're wielding a long sword when crowning 14:20 grayswandir is best weapon for most roles in vanilla 14:20 regardless of skill and alignment 14:20 [hdf-us] [nh370] killer (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) attained the rank of Enchantress (level 14), on T:32989 14:20 I'm not convinced, the silver damage isn't relevant against some of the most threatening monsters in the game 14:20 <@fredriq> K2: why do the dumplogs ignore zoom level?????? 14:20 the real balance issue there is that even without silver damage, it still beats most other weapons… 14:20 magicbane is best because of curse resistance 14:20 <@fredriq> both gnollhack and nethack ones do this 14:20 <@fredriq> rip accessibility 14:21 magicbane is interesting, it's a terrible weapon but a decent choice for the weapon slot 14:21 <@shadow_rider> magicbane is not terrible 😢 14:21 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: why would lawful crowned characters need to dip for excalibur when they already have it from their god? 14:21 well, it's terrible at being a weapon, but good at being a wield item 14:21 magicbane is part of the reason I had to say "most roles" 14:22 <@fredriq> in fiqhack I made magicbane a quarterstaff 14:22 fredriq: because you only get excalibur if you're wielding a long sword when you get crowned, unlike neutral/chaotic crowning 14:22 <@fredriq> I left it untouched otherwise 14:22 <@fredriq> in fiqhack, quarterstaves don't prevent spellcasting if cursed (despite you having no free hand), and they confer the same spellcasting bonus as robes (but they don't stack) 14:22 <@shadow_rider> magicbane is p good weapon imo 14:23 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: I thought the god just straight-up gave you Excal? 14:23 @fredriq no idea 14:23 <@shadow_rider> compared to some other neutral weapons i hate 14:23 <@fredriq> but yeah, I don't see why not to allow dipping for excal for crowned lawfuls 14:23 quarterstaff is a very poor weapon 14:23 that's not the case in vanilla at least 14:23 <@fredriq> in case the player somehow failed to get excal from this exercise 14:23 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:5462 (0:44:17) 14:24 <@fredriq> Demo: Athames aren't very good weapons either 🙂 14:24 athames are one-handed 14:24 quarterstaff does d6 14:24 <@fredriq> Quarterstaves do more damage than athames, and gets a damage multiplier for being 2-handed 14:24 which is bad for a two-handed weapon but not bad in an absolute sense 14:24 a qstaff in vanilla should get two dice 14:24 <@fredriq> from fh changelog: >Two-handed weapons now get a x1.6 multiplier to enchantment damage. This stacks with double damage from the Tsurugi of Muramasa 14:24 instead of just one 14:25 worse than a (one-handed) scimitar (d8) 14:25 <@fredriq> in FIQHack, the indisputably best weapon if you want raw damage is the Tsurugi of Muramasa 14:25 [hdf-us] [nh370] rancat (Tou Hum Mal Neu) found Frost Brand carried by a monster, on T:36446 14:25 [hdf-us] [nh370] masterofpi (Bar Orc Mal Cha) entered the Bigroom, on T:12812 14:26 <@fredriq> on top of the already great damage output of the base weapon, it now gets double damage on top of the general enchantment damage multiplier for being 2-handed (the one I pasted above) 14:26 <@fredriq> I do not see this as a bad thing, since it's a quest artifact 14:26 <@fredriq> It doesn't really do anything else besides being a very strong weapon 14:26 this seems reasonable 14:28 <@fredriq> Sceptre of Might was unchanged, but invokable conflict is already a good enough effect. The Longbow of Diana gets +1 multishot, always safely returns arrows, and prevents arrows from mulching 14:28 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Mon Hum Mal Law), 43565 points, T:14999, killed by a winged gargoyle 14:28 <@shadow_rider> an actually good two handed weapon 14:28 <@shadow_rider> that’s a first 14:29 [hdf-us] [nh370] masterofpi (Bar Orc Mal Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:12935 14:29 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: I would argue that all 2-handed artifacts in fiqhack are good; Magicbane (not as a weapon, but for general utility), Sceptre, Longbow, Cleaver, Muramasa 14:29 <@fredriq> actually Sceptre is a 1-handed weapon, so nvm that 14:29 <@fredriq> but the rest 14:30 <@shadow_rider> how are longbow and cleaver changed 14:30 longbow is two-handed? 14:30 <@shadow_rider> magicbane not cool enough to be used imo 14:30 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: it's a longbow... those are 2-handed, no? 14:30 bows are one-handed in vanilla 14:31 <@fredriq> Cleaver in fiqhack hits in an arc, vanilla actually ported this feature. Exclusive to fiqhack, it can be invoked to uncurse (this is mostly a band-aid fix to the "no free hand" problem) 14:31 <@fredriq> Really? That's... odd, but ok 14:31 that is very strange 14:31 <@fredriq> FIQHack cleaver doesn't hit tame or peaceful monsters unless your main target is tame/peaceful 14:31 <@shadow_rider> that makes it worse >:| 14:31 <@fredriq> Vanilla didn't port this feature for whatever reason 14:31 in real life, some crossbows can be fired one-handed, but it's basically impossible to do that with a longbow (and some crossbows are too heavy to hold one-handed) 14:32 <@fredriq> I have no idea why 14:32 <@fredriq> It makes cleaver much worse 14:32 <@shadow_rider> i might actually like cleaver if it didn’t arc attack 14:32 <@shadow_rider> oh 14:32 <@shadow_rider> even still i wouldn’t use 14:32 <@fredriq> how come? 14:32 <@shadow_rider> cleaver damage not cool enough 14:32 <@fredriq> it's very good if you are surrounded 14:32 <@shadow_rider> and two handed doesn’t let me shield/twoweapon 14:32 <@fredriq> something that isn't uncommon in places like Astral 14:32 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) made his first wish - "Blessed fixed +2 mjollnir", got "a blessed war hammer named Mjollnir", on T:2570 14:33 <@shadow_rider> if i’m surrounded then i probably don’t want to attack in pretty much every variant except fiq lol 14:33 <@fredriq> FIQHack indirectly nerfs twoweaponing due to enchantment contributing x1.6 to overall damage for two-handed weapons 14:33 <@shadow_rider> so i guess maybe it would be better in that way 14:33 <@fredriq> so 2-handed weapons aren't obviously outclassed like they typically are in vanilla 14:33 <@shadow_rider> you should have opened with that 14:34 <@shadow_rider> unless maybe you did and i just didn’t read 14:34 [hdf-us] [nh370] poppyjams (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1245 points, T:1651, killed by a water demon 14:34 <@fredriq> It was the very first thing I said about 2-handed weapons 😛 14:34 <@shadow_rider> :p 14:34 [hdf-us] [nh370] rancat (Tou Hum Mal Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:36839 14:34 <@fredriq> it was mentioned as part of a major Tsurugi buff 14:34 [hdf-us] [nh370] rancat (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:36841 14:34 dnh's double dbon solution for 2 handers is better 14:35 <@fredriq> Isn't that basically the same thing? Just a slightly higher bonus? 14:35 but theres a considerable amount more power creep 14:35 you dont have to enchant the item to get the bonus 14:35 so off the gate it is better, assuming decent str 14:35 <@fredriq> The reason I went with x1.6 as opposed to x2 is because I didn't want to make twoweaponing pointless 14:35 [hdf-us] [nh370] rancat (Tou Hum Mal Neu) found Sunsword carried by a monster, on T:36863 14:35 dnh also makes max dbon bonus from str 8 instead of 6 14:36 <@fredriq> IMO twoweaponing should still probably do more overall damage, but it shouldn't be the obvious best choice for every role that can twoweapon 14:36 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) was bestowed with Trollsbane by Huan Ti, on T:18611 14:37 <@shadow_rider> let me twoweapon twohanders 14:37 <@shadow_rider> what variant let me do that 14:37 <@fredriq> that could be a perk for Giant race 14:37 <@fredriq> in the variants that have that 14:37 honestly modern dnh isn't even really a good thing to bring into discussions around this because it is just too mature 14:37 <@fredriq> iirc Giant race in variants are just... bad, generally 14:37 <@fredriq> so it could be a fun way to compensate for their poor armor compatibility 14:38 giant race in evilhack is actually pretty fun 14:38 the viable build diversity in dnh makes vanilla look like a joke 14:38 evilhack giant lets you do that fiq 14:38 <@fredriq> ooh neat 14:38 dnh has the concept of object sizes which interact with the player size and the bimanuality of weapons is decided based on that 14:38 and for discussion sake, bows and crossbows in evilhack are two-handed (drow have a smaller one-handed crossbow) 14:39 <@shadow_rider> now add giant to fiqhack so i can two weapon op tsurugi and cleaver 14:39 <@fredriq> You would still not be able to twoweapon artifacts 😛 14:39 heh 14:39 <@shadow_rider> now add fiqhack twoweaponing to evilhack so i can twoweapon op tsurugi and cleaver 14:40 <@fredriq> and Cleaver would probably be forbidden from twoweaponing in general, or lose the arc feature if you do (rendering it mostly pointless) 14:40 <@shadow_rider> *fiqhack twohanders 14:40 yeah in evilhack if cleaver is dual wielded, no arc attack 14:40 instead of trying to 'fix' cleaver, just made more desireable artifacts 14:40 <@shadow_rider> you all suck i’m gonna make my own fork 14:41 dnh lets barbs offhand cleaver (and ARS). realistically this cannot be done without polymorphing into a much larger form. in ndnh, as some ent species, you can do this without polymorph 14:41 <@fredriq> I really dislike how vanilla didn't port the avoidance of tame/peaceful monsters that cleaver in fiqhack has 14:41 @shadow_rider do it, no balls 14:41 <@fredriq> It makes the weapon something that I wouldn't ever touch 14:41 can't you do this as an eth in ndnh? 14:41 since cleaver/ARS is medium and you are large 14:41 <@fredriq> like how I avoid Stormy 14:41 <@shadow_rider> don’t test me i will 14:41 DO EET 14:41 they are too heavy 14:42 you can technically do it, but the tohit will be abysmal 14:42 and you won't be able to hit anything 14:42 -!- Dingotron2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:42 <@shadow_rider> i was gonna start with the tutorial on r/roguelikedev cuz they started today 14:42 <@shadow_rider> but i’m basically done with it alr lol 14:42 <@shadow_rider> so ig it’s time 14:42 <@fredriq> I should totally add the djinn race to fiqhack, it was a race idea I had a while bac 14:42 <@fredriq> k 14:43 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) entered the Bigroom, on T:6242 14:43 <@fredriq> The idea of the race was that you got 3 wishes, one at XL10, 20 and 30 14:43 does ymir affect maximum offhand weapon weight? 14:43 <@fredriq> but you can't use any other wishing sources 14:43 @shadow_rider how was hack'em difficuly compared to everything else iyo? 14:43 do you have to use the wishes when levelling up or can you save them for later? 14:43 <@shadow_rider> fiq would it get any other benefits 14:43 !who 14:43 K2: [hdf-us] stagnate [nh343] masterofpi [nh370] KrO2 [dnh] merget [xnh] DragonSidedD [xnh] arrow [xnh] krm26 [evil] hothraxxa [hackm] :: [hdf-eu] spontiff [nh370] xororand [nh370] DeVoid [xnh] wvc [xnh] lacca [evil] omghax [gnoll] :: [hdf-au] Arahael [evil] 14:44 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:6255 14:44 !whereis omghax 14:44 K2: [hdf-eu] omghax [gnoll]: (Kni Dwa Mal Law) T:1 The Dungeons of Doom level: 1 14:44 <@fredriq> It would have the usual djinn attributes (innate fire immunity, etc) but nothing "special" beyond the wishes no 14:44 in ndnh, yes 14:44 <@fredriq> it was the main feature of it 14:44 [hdf-eu] [gnoll] omghax (Kni Dwa Mal Law), 0 points, T:20, killed by a hermit 14:44 <@shadow_rider> k2 it was harder than everything except evil felt like, also note i was playing a pretty busted combo and it didn’t feel op at all 14:44 gotcha 14:44 [hdf-eu] [nh370] xororand (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 3931 points, T:6289, killed by an invisible stalker 14:44 <@shadow_rider> although 14:44 @?djinni 14:44 djinni (&) | Lvl: 7 | Diff: 8 | Spd: 12 | Res: poison petrification | Confer: nothing | MR: 30 | Gen: special | AC: 4 | Atk: 2d8 weapon physical | Align: 0 | flies, poisonous, nopoly, stalker, infravis 14:45 judging from the commits recently, next version of hack'em will be a bit easier 14:45 would it have flight? 14:45 <@shadow_rider> i hear hackem ported slashthem vecna 14:45 <@fredriq> hack'em 14:45 <@shadow_rider> but still gets evil’s reward 14:45 <@shadow_rider> that sounds op as hell 14:45 <@fredriq> what does hack'em add? 14:45 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) attained the rank of Spelunker (level 18), on T:24685 14:45 <@fredriq> I should look at nethack wiki 14:45 an eth barb with ymir bound could do 90 aum offhand with skilled two wep i think 14:45 @fredriq yeah good idea. in a nutshell, its modern slash'em, used evilhack as a base 14:45 so you'd be -30 tohit on the offhand cleaver and -60 on ARS 14:46 it retains some evilhack code but a lot of it has already been stripped out or changed 14:46 what if you made them mithril with silver flame? 14:46 <@fredriq> ok 14:47 <@shadow_rider> i’m really quite impressed with hack’em, lot more interesting mechanics and changes than i thought he had planned for 14:47 <@shadow_rider> and having evil base was a good decision 14:48 yeah 14:48 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) made her first wish - "fixed +3 frost brand", on T:14634 (1:15:01) 14:48 <@shadow_rider> lowkey if/when i attempt my own variant i’d want to base it off of hackem 14:48 <@shadow_rider> problem is it’s buggy and new 14:48 adding all of the slash'em stuff has brought over its bugs as well but the devs are actively squashing those 14:48 mithril halves their weight 14:48 <@fredriq> >Removed "Need +x weapon to be hit" property from SLASH'EM monsters 14:48 <@fredriq> good idea, I always disliked the idea of that feature 14:49 which means cleaver with no ymir on an eth, and ARS with ymir 14:49 that's a very ad&d thing 14:49 needing a weapon with a certain enchantment to be able to hit 14:49 I don't like how monsters can zap polymorph at you and polymorph your stash 14:49 It's also probably abusable for polypiling without breaking the conduct 14:49 <@fredriq> yeah but in D&D, the DM could help you if you are confused about the feature 14:49 dont stand on your stash :) 14:49 <@fredriq> can't exactly do that in NetHack 14:50 you can't access it without standing on it 14:50 there's a solution to that in evilhack at least. dunno what all hack'em retained or changed 14:51 crystal chest :) 14:51 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: polyzap is something monsters do in GruntHack, EvilHack and FIQHack too afaik (well I know they do in fh, pretty sure but not 100% that they do in gh and evil) 14:51 @fredriq i was mulling over the idea of adding 'need +x enchantment to hit certain monsters' but because monsters can offensively use cancellation against you, i'm pretty much decided against doing that 14:51 fiq, they do in gh and evil 14:52 <@fredriq> I never liked the idea of monster wand zaps affecting your inventory personally 14:52 in gh monsters can use the wand or cast the spell, in evil its just the wand 14:52 <@fredriq> they should affect the monster (i.e. you) 14:52 <@fredriq> but not the inv 14:52 <@fredriq> unless selfzap 14:52 [hdf-us] [hackm] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Mal Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:10643 (6:18:36) 14:52 fiq polyzap doesnt affect things in your inventory 14:52 only things on the ground in the line of fire 14:52 selfzap of polymorph doesn't affect your inventory even 14:52 <@fredriq> Yeah I know it's specifically a cancel thing 14:52 I can see "need a particular sort of weapon" to hit monsters but don't think it should be based on enchantment 14:52 <@fredriq> But I dislike it 😛 14:53 e.g. maybe skeletons are immune to sharp weapons because of the nature of their body, you have to use a blunt weapon to attack them 14:53 <@shadow_rider> if i zap cancel at a monster does it cancel their inventory? 🤔 14:53 <@fredriq> I preferred my own variant's cancellation, haha 14:53 <@fredriq> (in fiqhack, monsters can cancel you) 14:53 dnethack has that 14:53 <@shadow_rider> fiqhack cancel is also bogus 14:53 <@shadow_rider> no offense :P 14:53 <@fredriq> why? 14:53 although you can still hit with the wrong weapon, it won't do as much damage 14:53 <@fredriq> it makes perfect sense 14:53 its a bit harsh 14:54 i get it 14:54 <@fredriq> cancel prevents a monster from using its magical abilities 14:54 <@shadow_rider> it makes sense yeah 14:54 but yeah it sucks getting cancelled in fiqhack 14:54 <@shadow_rider> it’s also bogus 14:54 <@fredriq> ah you mean you dislike from a gameplay perspective 😛 14:54 <@fredriq> you can #find a magic trap 14:54 <@shadow_rider> yep 14:54 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) polymorphed her first item, on T:28509 14:54 can players resist like monsters can? 14:54 do players have monster-style MR? 14:54 <@fredriq> they are far more likely to explode if a cancelled monster steps on it 14:54 <@fredriq> uncancelling them 14:54 <@fredriq> You can also just drink gain energy, or read confused charging 14:55 <@fredriq> Plenty of ways to deal with it 14:55 <@shadow_rider> wand of uncancelling 14:55 <@fredriq> lol 14:55 heh 14:55 <@fredriq> FIQHack's wand of make invisible does work that way 14:55 wand of 'fuck this, i'm going home' 14:55 <@fredriq> If you are skilled enough, it toggles 14:55 [hdf-eu] [nh370] spontiff (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed the Oracle, on T:2044 14:56 [hdf-eu] [xnh] DeVoid (Pri Hum Mal Neu) killed Croesus, on T:24145 14:56 <@shadow_rider> im always salty about wands balance patch but maybe part of the issue is i never use wands enough to get any skill in them 14:56 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: Players don't have willpower at the moment in fiqhack no, but it's something I want to add 14:56 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had a spellbook given to her by Moloch, on T:16151 (1:23:06) 14:56 <@shadow_rider> give me incentive to use them sooner 14:56 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: Wands are useful at basic already (basic is vanilla-level for the most part) 14:57 <@shadow_rider> correct i never used them enough to get basic :p 14:57 <@fredriq> Most roles start at basic I think 14:57 <@shadow_rider> it amazes me how anyone could use so many wands to get higher than that 14:57 <@shadow_rider> unless the skilling is special cases 14:57 <@fredriq> I think only barbarians and cavemen start unskilled (and barbarians are restricted) 14:58 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had a spellbook of finger of death given to her by Moloch, on T:16283 (1:24:50) 14:58 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) found Sting carried by a monster, on T:22396 14:59 <@fredriq> Just double-checked 14:59 <@fredriq> All roles except for barbarians and cavemen start at basic wand skill 14:59 <@fredriq> Cavemen start unskilled and cap out at basic 15:00 <@fredriq> Barbarians can't get any wand skill at all 15:00 <@shadow_rider> yeah i’m probably just complaining about nothing it was a while ago and i haven’t played enough 15:00 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: btw, even if you never bother to train wand skill up, blessing a wand will increase the baseline skill level by one 15:00 <@fredriq> meaning that if you have Basic wand skill, blessed ones count as Skilled 15:00 <@fredriq> which already makes them better than vanilla 15:00 <@shadow_rider> huh 15:01 <@fredriq> (This works for Barbarians too btw, they get Basic wand skill that way) 15:01 <@shadow_rider> i actually like that as a concept, just making cursed wands worse and blessed wands better 15:01 <@fredriq> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Wands%20Balance%20Patch why is this a 403? 15:02 so, just whip up what's "better" and what's "worse" for each wand effect? 15:02 <@fredriq> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Wands_Balance_Patch has a list of wands and their effects at different skill levels 15:02 <@shadow_rider> yeah whatever fiq did 15:02 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3150 15:02 <@fredriq> (No role can get "Master" in wand skill, but Expert + blessed gives those effects) 15:03 cba 15:03 <@shadow_rider> but in any case i will return with ridehack which will introduce #threeweaponing of any artifacts and twohanded weapons 15:03 <@shadow_rider> be warned 15:03 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had a cloak of invisibility entrusted to her by Moloch, on T:16777 (1:30:26) 15:03 threeweaponing 15:04 lol 15:04 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Inc Fem Neu), 1130348 points, T:24554, killed by a marilith 15:04 what's the third arm @shadow_rider hmmm?? 15:04 <@fredriq> paxed: General theme of skill levels: unskilled = weak effects, mostly meant to make earlygame monsters with wands less threatening. For example, ray wands has this unskilled effect: "3d6 or 40% maxHP damage, whichever is less" 15:04 HMM? 15:04 <@fredriq> Basic is for the most part the same as vanilla 15:04 <@shadow_rider> left as an exercise for the reader 15:04 hah 15:05 !who 15:05 K2: [hdf-us] stagnate [nh343] oh6 [nh370] Superfly [nh370] bismatum [un] KrO2 [dnh] merget [xnh] DragonSidedD [xnh] arrow [xnh] terrapin [evil] krm26 [evil] Nightsorrow [evil] hothraxxa [hackm] :: [hdf-eu] spontiff [nh370] DeVoid [xnh] wvc [xnh] Graznop [evil] lacca [evil] mobileuser [hackm] :: [hdf-au] omghax [gnoll] 15:05 !whereis omghax 15:05 K2: [hdf-au] omghax [gnoll]: (Pri Hum Fem Cha) T:1 The Dungeons of Doom level: 1 15:05 in dnh you can three+ weapon if you have marilith arms 15:06 [hdf-au] [gnoll] omghax (Pri Hum Fem Cha), 0 points, T:11, killed by a hermit 15:06 GnollHack updated (all servers) 15:06 ^ new version, 4.1.2.3 15:06 @jannehmp @Tommi ^ 15:06 <@shadow_rider> new artifact idea: the hand of marilith 15:06 <@shadow_rider> this will also be added to ridehack 15:06 <@fredriq> Skilled ray-based wands will, upon hitting a target with reflection, be "disrupted", causing an explosion. This for the most part has the same damage as if a ray hit you normally, but death magic explosions don't instakill. Other wands generally become better than basic too, for example, wands of light get a bigger radius, probing gives enlightenment from a monster's POV if zapped on them (or yourself). Wands of make invisible toggles invis at this 15:06 point, and wands of speed monster gives intrinsic speed (on top of additional turns of extrinsic speed) 15:07 what does it do? 15:07 <@shadow_rider> it gives you a marilith hand to go along with your marilith arms 15:07 @shadow_rider new artifact for riderhack - The Red Stapler of Milton 15:08 <@fredriq> Expert for the most part has the same effect as skilled, but with one important caveat: it can bypass resistances (Magic missile deals 50% damage against magic resistant target at Expert, wands of death will drain a level, for example) 15:08 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 1423 points, T:3364, killed by a killer bee 15:08 <@shadow_rider> what is a red stapler of milton 15:09 someone has never watched clerks 15:09 <@fredriq> Master for ray wands will, upon hitting a monster, cause d5+1 explosions, the first one centered on the target. Master also has very great effects for basically all wands in the entire game, with few exceptions (nothing, opening, wishing) 15:09 [hdf-us] [evil] terrapin (Rog Dro Mal Cha) killed Gollum, on T:19097 (5:07:17) 15:09 <@shadow_rider> is that an hothraxxa/k2 aged thing? 15:09 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqxjRzzGn8k 15:09 <@fredriq> For example, master wands of light will light up an entire level, secret door detection will detect all doors, corridors and traps on a level, wands of locking will replace a doorway with a secret door 15:10 <@fredriq> meaning that monsters can't get through 15:10 wishing at master should give extra wishes, opening at master should open everything in the dungeon, nothing at master should do more nothing 15:10 <@fredriq> (unless they have a pickaxe, phase, etc) 15:10 <@fredriq> I have used master wands of locking in Astral in the past to block monsters from pursuing me 15:10 [hdf-us] [hackm] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Mal Neu) made his first artifact wish - "very historic thoroughly unlocked blessed rustproof diluted very +5 dragonbane named glistening gloves", on T:10973 (6:36:59) 15:10 does it work for riders? 15:11 <@fredriq> you can lock out Riders that way 😛 15:11 <@fredriq> paxed ^ there you have short summaries of each skill grade 15:11 <@fredriq> with examples of effects 15:12 is this info on the wiki FIQ? 15:12 <@fredriq> yes 15:12 <@fredriq> but paxed said "cba" when I linked the wiki lol 15:12 <@fredriq> he did ask about the effects so I figured I'd add a short description of effects here 15:13 fredriq: you missed enlightenment from your list of wands that are unchanged at master 15:13 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) performed his first genocide (class L), on T:23676 15:13 and sleep 15:13 <@fredriq> The biggest controversy wrt wands balance patch isn't so much your skillset however; it's monster use of wands 15:13 <@shadow_rider> let sleep become wand of paralysis at master 15:14 <@fredriq> The most notable part probably being the fact that at skilled and above, rays bypass reflection 15:14 and soldiers are skilled 15:14 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) killed the Abominable Snowman, on T:78559 (1 day, 1:06:01) 15:15 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) killed Schliemann, on T:25970 15:15 paxed always says 'cba' 15:15 :P 15:15 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) found Itlachiayaque carried by a monster, on T:25970 15:15 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) attained the rank of Scout (level 14), on T:29900 15:15 [hdf-eu] [xnh] wvc (Arc Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:25972 15:15 <@fredriq> hothraxxa: The basis for that is basically; soldiers in real life typically use guns in combat. I imagine that wands basically serve a similar purpose in NetHack's universe, they are tools that have charges that do bad stuff when zapped at opponents 15:16 paxed is entirely without arse 15:16 <@fredriq> So for that reason it made sense IMO to give them skilled in wand skill 😛 15:16 <@fredriq> even if K2 disagrees 15:16 yes i know the reasoning. doesn't help when i'm being zapped to death 15:16 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) was bestowed with Ogresmasher by Huan Ti, on T:23890 15:16 <@fredriq> I did nerf deathzaps 15:17 <@fredriq> they no longer instakill w/o MR if you have reflection 15:17 <@fredriq> They still hurt, mind you, but aren't fatal 15:17 i could the officer ranked soldier types being skilled. not the grunts 15:17 *could see 15:17 <@fredriq> K2: I considered nerfing the basic soldier to basic, and giving captains expert 15:17 but we've argued this before 15:18 that wouldnt be bad 15:18 <@fredriq> (while keeping red+blue @s skilled, I don't recall their names) 15:18 <@fredriq> er, red+green 15:18 sergeants and lieutenants 15:18 <@fredriq> ah 15:18 <@fredriq> clearly it was too long ago I played NetHack 😛 15:19 if it were up to me - soldiers no wand skill, sergeants basic, lieutenants/captains skilled. no non-wizard should ever have expert skill with a wand 15:20 <@fredriq> I disagree, because don't consider NetHack wands as requiring magic affinity to use 15:20 <@fredriq> they're tools that someone else enchanted 15:20 * K2 shrugs 15:20 <@fredriq> so someone else did the hard part wrt that 😛 15:20 harry potter enters chat 15:21 <@fredriq> I always figured that Muggles in the HP universe would be perfectly able to use Time Turners, for similar reasons; I do not consider the tool to require any magic skill of the user themselves 15:22 <@fredriq> Of course in HPverse, wands do require magic ability. But NetHack wizards don't really work that way, they cast spells from an innate reservoir of magic 15:22 <@fredriq> and unlike xnethack, in fiqhack, wands do not help you with spellcasting at all 15:23 [hdf-us] [evil] terrapin (Rog Dro Mal Cha) had a copper saber entrusted to him by Kos, on T:19608 (5:20:47) 15:24 [hdf-us] [nh370] Dirge (Mon Hum Mal Cha) murdered his faithful kitten, on T:765 15:31 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) completed Sokoban, acquiring an amulet of reflection, on T:21700 (1:58:13) 15:32 -!- docpi has joined #hardfought 15:33 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) killed Medusa, on T:25830 15:33 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Elf Fem Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:3645 15:34 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) wished for "blessed fixed stethoscope", on T:38120 15:35 [hdf-us] [nh343] stagnate (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Oracle, on T:49046 15:35 -!- stoicjin has joined #hardfought 15:37 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had a spellbook of confuse monster given to her by Moloch, on T:22468 (2:04:32) 15:38 @fredriq: soldiers can appear before the Sokoban prize, so they shouldn't be able to effectively use wands of death 15:38 <@fredriq> that sounds very much out of depth 15:38 <@fredriq> aren't they difficulty 13 or something? 15:39 <@fredriq> I guess they can in 3.6+ due to sokoban being far more dangerous there 15:39 <@fredriq> personally I don't really like that change, it makes mines vs sokoban first into less of a choice 15:40 @v? soldier 15:40 soldier (@) | Lvl: 6 | Diff: 8 | Spd: 10 | Res: none | Confer: nothing | MR: 0 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 10 | Atk: 1d8 weapon physical | Align: -2 | genocidable, omnivore, nopoly, stalker, infravis 15:40 <@fredriq> huh 15:40 I was surprised too, but it's only difficulty 8 15:40 <@fredriq> I thought it was much more than that 15:40 <@fredriq> guess not 15:40 so did I, until one of them killed me 15:40 <@fredriq> was this in vanilla? 15:40 yes 15:40 <@fredriq> because even at difficulty 8, it's unlikely for soldiers to appear in pre-3.6 soko 15:40 <@fredriq> since highest Dlvl for soko is 9 there 15:41 right, this was with Sokoban difficulty going upwards, which isn't technically required but does make it much more likely 15:43 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 1367 points, T:2082, killed by a dwarf 15:43 -!- rld has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44 -!- rld has joined #hardfought 15:44 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v rld] by ChanServ 15:46 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) killed Cerberus, on T:62376 (1 day, 12:40:16) 15:47 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:62386 (1 day, 12:41:20) 15:48 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had Ogresmasher bestowed upon her by Moloch, on T:23981 (2:14:44) 15:51 -!- wvc has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) was given their Quest, on T:38944 15:55 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Bar Orc Fem Cha), 1333 points, T:1721, killed by a large cat called Benny 15:56 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Bar Orc Fem Cha), 152 points, T:76, killed by a gnome lord 15:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] Dirge (Mon Hum Mal Cha) found Demonbane on the floor, on T:2525 16:01 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Bar Orc Fem Cha), 260 points, T:776, killed by a gnome lord 16:02 a wand would be equivalent to something like a bayonet that you wouldn't necessarily have skill in 16:10 [hdf-us] [hackm] stoicjin (Val Dwa Fem Law) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3294 (0:21:26) 16:15 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:29206 (2:42:06) 16:17 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Master Kaen, on T:40363 16:21 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 3286 points, T:4321, killed by a dwarf 16:22 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Cha) averted death, on T:25516 16:22 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Pir Hum Mal Cha), 340789 points, T:25520, killed by an invisible hedrow blademaster of Eilistraee, while sleeping 16:24 Well, too bad Vis was sleeping. hedrow did not get to introduce himself to Vis. 16:33 [hdf-us] [hackm] stoicjin (Val Dwa Fem Law), 6287 points, T:6186, killed by a bolt of lightning 16:33 -!- stoicjin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36 !lastgame stoicjin 16:36 cbus: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/s/stoicjin/hackem/dumplog/1688500114.hackem.html 16:36 ouch bounce from their own wand 16:40 mm in nh4 feels properly op 16:40 which mm? magic marker? magic missile? something else? 16:41 magic mapping? :D 16:41 missile 16:41 or maybe just mm chocolate 16:41 <3 chocolate 16:41 the wand is actually kind-of bad, but the spell is pretty good lategame 16:41 -!- stoicjin has joined #hardfought 16:41 some variant had them nerfed but in return you had faster pw regen 16:43 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) had a spellbook of turn undead given to her by Moloch, on T:34052 (3:10:30) 16:52 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54 perm E, so delightful 16:54 I have been playing Elberethless a lot recently – I'm not convinced the game is properly balanced around it, but I think the game would be better if it did manage to remove Elbereth and balance around that 16:55 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:62948 (1 day, 13:21:32) 16:55 [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 115756 points, T:35703, killed by a sasquatch, while fainted from lack of food 16:56 you should look into how dnethack wards work 16:56 if it was that unbalanced you'd see a lot more streak i think 16:57 [hdf-us] [evil] terrapin (Rog Dro Mal Cha) killed the Abominable Snowman, on T:23682 (6:37:51) 16:57 [hdf-us] [dnh] guest99987 (Bin Hlf Fem Non), 590 points, T:1222, killed by a gnome 16:58 oh, I mean the game isn't balanced well around E missing 16:58 not that it isn't balanced well around E existing 16:58 -!- fakepass has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58 <@shadow_rider> that sounds very difficult to balance 16:59 <@jannehmp> @k21971 Great, thanks a lot! 17:00 <@shadow_rider> if you get caught between monsters in a hallway early on what do you do 17:00 making E a soko prize seems like a good start 17:01 <@shadow_rider> how do you make stuff like soldier ant packs still dangerous while making it reasonable for most roles to dispose of them without being able to scare them 17:01 attack one of them, I guess? 17:01 not that i think E needs nerfing 17:01 anselmus: the game's difficulty is frontloaded, the vast majority of the most difficult situations in the game come prior to the end of Sokoban 17:03 (or *are* the end of Sokoban, that is one of the most dangerous points in the game if it's played in the "normal" order, to the extent that in 3.6/3.7 I often do Sokoban just for the random items and skip the zoo and prize) 17:03 that's why i said it's a start :p 17:05 I can imagine a world in which a wizard can dispose of soldier ant packs by retreating into a corridor and zapping force bolt down it repeatedly 17:06 <@shadow_rider> not saying it’s impossible just that it would be tricky :) 17:06 <@shadow_rider> also be prepared that kind of change would be hugely unpopular with a ton of the playerbase 17:06 [hdf-us] [dnh] Som (Hea Dro Fem Neu), 896 points, T:3143, killed by a living lectern 17:07 or make writing E more unreliable 17:07 <@shadow_rider> even if it was balanced from the get go 17:07 I am not planning to remove E, although I am probably going to balance as though it didn't exist 17:07 didn't 3.6 already nerf E significantly? 17:07 compared to 3.4.3 that is 17:07 yes 17:07 [hdf-eu] [evil] Graznop (Inf Hum Fem Una) killed the Oracle, on T:8521 (4:06:43) 17:07 and then 3.6.1 unnerfed it a little 17:08 for some reason I'm less scared of the E nerf than of nerfing MC, but I might just be seeing this wrong 17:08 that said, sokoban end is one of those places where E is or would be very useful 17:08 because you want to control the flow of monsters out of the zoo so you can fight just one or two at a time 17:09 i admit you probably shouldn't be allowed to fight on E 17:09 the MC nerf was very impactful, but I think the impacts were primarily positive 17:09 <@shadow_rider> mc mostly matters lategame when you can get away with p much anything 17:09 so giving E as a price for sokoban end would be kind of a taunt 17:09 <@shadow_rider> you can’t get away with too much early on 17:09 there are some specific issues caused by it, e.g. fire ants are much more dangerous now 17:10 …maybe some otherwise bad body armors should have high MC values? 17:11 it's not that the MC change is bad, I'm just scared of it because it's new. nerfing E isn't a new idea, people were talking about it all the time, variant devs were trying different approaches, and players did various voluntary conducts to restrict it 17:11 [hdf-us] [evil] terrapin (Rog Dro Mal Cha), 194929 points, T:23901, killed by a woolly mammoth 17:11 but the MC nerf was a complete surprise 17:11 the unihorn nerf is somewhere in between, that also scares me 17:11 but it's not something that people hadn't considered earlier 17:12 wards are a great solution 17:14 the MC nerf wasn't so much of a surprise to me (I wasn't on the devteam at the time, but it seemed like the sort of change that was necessary) 17:15 I had suggested making MC cap at 5, rather than 3 – the devteam's actual approach was to keep the cap at 3 but make MC3 slightly less effective and greatly reduce most MC values so that 3 is hard to hit 17:15 most of my ascensions in 3.6+ have been with MC1 17:17 or maybe limit E to X uses since it's only mostly useful early on 17:18 [hdf-eu] [evil] Graznop (Inf Hum Fem Una), 16690 points, T:8941, killed by a champion of Grumbar 17:20 <@shadow_rider> make elbereth less effective the more you use it 17:21 <@shadow_rider> don’t ask where i got that idea from 17:21 [hdf-eu] [nh370] nurdglaw (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 1226 points, T:3579, killed by a Woodland-elf 17:21 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha) killed Lolth, on T:63276 (1 day, 13:39:40) 17:22 why do covetous liches generate with athames? by the time you meet them (in gehennom), elbereth isn't useful anymore 17:22 elbereth radiation that slowsly metastasizes into cancer 17:22 [hdf-us] [dnh] guest99987 (Bin Vam Fem Non), 4553 points, T:2134, killed by a giant zombie 17:22 flavour? 17:23 also, I guess it compensates you if you do manage to beat a covetous lich early 17:23 covetous liches don't generate early 17:23 [hdf-eu] [hackm] mobileuser (Pir Orc Fem Cha), 1432392 points, T:63281, killed by Baphomet, while moving through the air 17:23 yikes, rip mobileuser 17:23 !lastgame mobileuser 17:23 NetSysFire: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/m/mobileuser/notdnethack/dumplog/1685042052.ndnh.txt :: [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/m/mobileuser/hackem/dumplog/1687872338.hackem.html 17:23 (although I can't think of ways to generate one early that would also give it its starting inventory) 17:23 damn 17:24 should have branchported out sooner 17:25 * anselmus cancels plan to try hackem again after soko 17:25 lol 17:25 <@shadow_rider> T_T 17:25 <@shadow_rider> how much hp were you at a turn ago? 17:26 I would have to see the ttyrec :-) 17:26 but his weapon was mithril and I am an orc 17:26 <@shadow_rider> ah that would hurt 17:26 covetous lich was very useful in my nethack4 ascension when I camped at an altar and had a lich summon nasties. when I damaged the lich, it would teleport to the stairs and escape outside of the level to heal, healing for long enough that it gives me time to fight and sac and eat the other monsters, but not too long so I didn't have to wait, so I could easily control the pace by hitting the lich. 17:26 <@shadow_rider> scroll of time crying in the bag 17:27 well I should have left earlier and come back prepared 17:27 of course this and all my other slow strategies only really worked because at that point nethack4 had the bug where I got too easy monsters because the difficulty calculation ignored my high xl 17:27 <@shadow_rider> as well as life saving amulets 17:27 yeah rub it in :-) 17:27 I would probably still be playing that same long game if the game hadn't started to punish me using forgotten spells and fading spellbooks and no way to get new spellbooks 17:27 <@shadow_rider> :p sorry 17:27 as well as FH potions 17:28 <@shadow_rider> i know it’s a preference thing but i simply don’t understand you crazies who prefer wearing other amulets over life saving 17:28 well, bedtime :-( 17:28 with a bit of care I almost never need life saving 17:29 that was the shortest clock the game had, and made me ascend after like 120_000 turns 17:29 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law), 56298 points, T:21123, killed by a zruty, while paralyzed by a monster 17:29 I do like that nethack lets you play slow, unlike crawl 17:30 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Client closed] 17:30 had I known about the spellbooks *in advance*, I would have played for much longer 17:30 oh nh4 has a read limit for books? 17:32 [hdf-us] [nh370] Dirge (Mon Hum Mal Cha) rejected atheism by offering a gnomish wizard corpse on an altar of Huan Ti, on T:3060 17:32 anselmus: no, in theory you can get as many as you want, but they are rare. the problem was that I used up all the spellbooks, using polypile, to learn almost all the spells, instead of saving them for later. I had plenty of markers from polypiling and thought that rewriting a spellbook with ink would refresh its fading. it doesn't. they just remain faded. it's the paper that wears out from reading, 17:33 not just the ink. 17:33 <@shadow_rider> i almost never need lifesaving either but when i do i’m glad i wore it the other 25 times 17:33 had I known how spellbooks work I'd have learned only the more important spells and saved up extra books. 17:34 <@shadow_rider> b_jonas how does crawl not let you play slow? 17:34 this wiz *started* with mm f yeah 17:34 <@shadow_rider> it’s like any other roguelike, you can stop and thinking for as long as you want whenever you want :)) 17:34 mind you, I ascended as a val-neu-hum and had plenty of armor and artifact weapons, so I could have just played on and ascended without using spells. but ascending a spellcasting valkyrie who no longer remembers any spells is not fun, so I ascended while I still could cast some spells. 17:35 rld: it doesn't let you play slow in game time, not real time 17:36 you can play slow real time, and probably should until you learn it well 17:36 rld is a relaybot, you probably want to ping some specific person on Discord instead 17:36 ah yes, it's a bridge 17:36 [hdf-us] [nh370] Dirge (Mon Hum Mal Cha) was bestowed with Sting by Huan Ti, on T:3123 17:36 shadow_rider: ^ 17:36 you'll never get anyone here to admit that they make any mistakes that would require ls 17:36 <@shadow_rider> no no it is i rld 17:36 I sometimes wear lifesaving with the intention of running out of HP and using it as a heal 17:37 "why would i need ls if i play perfectly?" 17:37 it's like a potion of full healing but harder to dilute accidentally 17:37 <@shadow_rider> heh well yes that is what they say 17:37 it's also good protection against typos, which is particularly relevant as my connection is really laggy 17:37 <@shadow_rider> but people aren’t perfect as we all prove time and time again 17:37 better to die with honor than to cling to a puny amulet 17:37 <@shadow_rider> so why not wear it 17:37 <@shadow_rider> isn’t that the whole point of nethack cbus? :p 17:37 fwiw I usually end up not using my amulet of lifesaving, but I still generally design my asc kits around it because the late game isn't all that hard 17:37 and player error is more likely to kill than a weak character 17:37 <@shadow_rider> clinging to a puny amulet 17:38 I was wearing an amulet of lifesaving for most of my ascension 17:38 I just see it as a game to become your true self 17:38 WAR 17:38 <@shadow_rider> oh wait 17:38 the 4th rider 17:39 <@shadow_rider> you were saying the same thing i was 17:39 <@shadow_rider> i was not funny 17:39 <@shadow_rider> i’ll go sit in the sad corner 17:39 <@fredriq> reading backlog, speaking of E 17:40 <@fredriq> I considered making elves in fiqhack able to use Elbereth 17:41 fredriq, in hackem hobbits/elves start with elbereth 17:41 <@fredriq> causing you to be unable to attack them in melee (trying just wastes your turn) 17:41 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) was chosen to take lives for the Glory of Anhur, on T:40930 17:41 [hdf-us] [nh370] stoicjin (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) was bestowed with spellbook of finger of death, on T:40930 17:41 the rest need to learn it evilhack style (probably some other variants too) 17:41 <@fredriq> cbus: not really the same thing 17:41 oh and orcs cant elbereth :P 17:41 theres a YAFM if you try 17:41 <@fredriq> can you sneak in the word by engraving it partially? 17:42 <@shadow_rider> fiq you are the master of making changes that make sense logically but make players hate the game :p 17:42 <@shadow_rider> not actually but more like annoyances 17:42 You have difficulty writing a word you've never learned. 17:42 You wipe out the message and write Elizabeth instead. 17:42 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: are you aware of fiqhack's goals? 😛 17:42 <@shadow_rider> lmao 17:42 <@shadow_rider> is it on the wiki? 17:43 thats not the orc one btw but I will let you find that one out :P 17:43 <@fredriq> fiqhack has 3 main goals: improving quality of life/UI convenience, improving the monster AI, and improving monster/player symmetry 17:43 <@fredriq> in order from least to most controversial 17:43 does fiq have fast travel that doesnt choke pets in leash?+ 17:44 it is something I want to add to hackem 17:44 <@fredriq> I don't think I've ever used a leash in fiqhack 17:44 <@fredriq> since pets follow you just fine on their own 17:44 <@fredriq> pets are far more convenient in general in fiqhack 17:44 even when fast travelling and being faster than them? 17:45 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: "monster/player symmetry" in this case means that, anything a player can do, a monster can also do. And anything that can afflict a player can also afflict a monster and vice versa 17:45 <@shadow_rider> see that’s the problem fiq 17:45 <@shadow_rider> improving the monster ai makes them smarter than me which i don’t like 17:45 <@shadow_rider> i play like an idiot 17:45 <@fredriq> I've had to change some mechanics in the game to make the game more playable with the implications of the above 17:46 <@fredriq> For example, consider the humble wand of create monster 17:46 can monsters ascend in fiqhack? 17:46 <@fredriq> In vanilla, monsters basically never use it, ever 17:46 I think some variant (maybe evilhack) has that 17:46 I love that evil has monster wishes 17:47 <@fredriq> But, well, there is no reason not to swarm a player with hostile monsters 17:47 it also allows player monsters to steal artifacts/invocation items/the amulet which is stupid and asymmetrical because players can't do that 17:47 <@fredriq> So monsters used to spam the wand 17:47 <@fredriq> Constantly 17:47 <@fredriq> They still do this btw, but I nerfed summons a lot, and the wand is much, much rarer 17:47 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: Player monsters can ascend, yes 17:47 <@shadow_rider> but if monsters get to summon more monsters on their team why can’t the player use the same wand to summon friends 17:48 <@fredriq> And monster can wish 17:48 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: they can! 17:48 <@fredriq> fiqhack changed the mechanics of create monster 17:48 <@fredriq> it makes tame monsters nowdays 17:48 <@fredriq> if you use it 17:48 <@shadow_rider> oh 17:48 <@fredriq> Oh also, there was another adjustment made to summons in general (not just create monster) 17:48 <@shadow_rider> you really are good at sticking to your goals :p 17:48 <@fredriq> They aren't permanent anymore 17:49 which btw makes sacfesting even more annoying 17:49 can mostercs use scare monster on you? 17:49 <@fredriq> Monsters in fiqhack can also use genocide, but I had to do a slight adjustment to how genocide works to make it work in a more sensible way 17:50 <@fredriq> Namely; instead of the player race and player role always being genocideable, they can't be genocided, similar to other playable roles and races. However, you can always genocide yourself 17:50 <@fredriq> This also goes for monsters 17:50 [hdf-us] [dnh] Som (Dhl-Hea Dro Fem Neu) consulted the oracle for the first time, on T:3105 17:50 <@fredriq> And if a hostile monster knows BUC of cursed genocide scrolls, they'll gladly revgeno in nasties 17:51 <@fredriq> cbus: No, but that's mostly because I don't really know the most appropriate effect for it 17:51 <@fredriq> If I do make elves able to use Elbereth at some point, I'll probably make monsters use scare monster in a similar way 17:51 no reason to assume monsters would even know what a wand is 17:52 <@fredriq> anselmus: Monsters in fiqhack always know base item type, but they don't know BUC, enchantment or charges 17:52 <@fredriq> They have to learn that on their own 17:52 <@fredriq> This does mean that a monster won't immediately know when a wand is out of charges 17:52 <@fredriq> until they uselessly zap a wand 17:52 <@fredriq> (and possibly accidentally wrest it) 17:52 <@shadow_rider> some variants have a fear effect 17:53 <@shadow_rider> dunno if you’ve seen it 17:53 <@fredriq> Fear is a vanilla effect, but I considered that unfair 17:53 <@fredriq> because it's a paralysis 17:53 <@fredriq> which isn't what happens for monsters 17:54 [hdf-us] [dnh] guest99987 (Bin Vam Fem Non) consulted the oracle for the first time, on T:2755 17:55 Can you undo genocide? 17:55 and does monster genocide break the conduct? 17:55 <@shadow_rider> aha now that would be an actual good reason to put undo genocide in 17:55 <@shadow_rider> so useless in other variants 17:56 obviously monsters have a significant numerical advantage over the player, so not sure why symmetry would be necessary 17:56 <@fredriq> Monster genocide doesn't break the conduct 17:56 <@fredriq> anselmus: Note what I said above; "Namely; instead of the player race and player role always being genocideable, they can't be genocided, similar to other playable roles and races. However, you can always genocide yourself" 17:56 <@fredriq> a random hill giant can't genocide the player 17:57 <@fredriq> only player monsters of the same role can do that 17:57 <@fredriq> or gnomes/dwarves if the player is playing those 17:57 would they ever do that? 17:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] Dirge (Mon Hum Mal Cha) hit with a wielded weapon (pick-axe) for the first time, on T:4245 17:57 if confused 17:57 <@fredriq> (but that would also instantly kill them, so they don't generally dod that) 17:57 <@fredriq> If confused, yes 17:57 <@fredriq> Otherwise, no 17:57 so magicbane is very bad 17:58 depends who you ask 17:58 <@fredriq> Just be careful in the rare circumstances when it comes up 😛 17:58 there's 2 kinds of fiqhack players, those that have been genocided by a monster and those that haven't 17:58 <@fredriq> Demo: the only player who has been genocided in fiqhack has been genocided as a result of an AI bug 17:58 <@fredriq> nothing could have helped them there 17:59 <@shadow_rider> has any player monster ever ascended? 17:59 <@shadow_rider> i wonder what the livelog of that would be 17:59 <@fredriq> I don't think so? They don't try very hard 17:59 <@fredriq> they'd need to somehow get hold of the Amulet 18:00 <@fredriq> and currently, monsters don't abuse nymph polyself or similar 18:00 <@fredriq> so the player would need to drop the Amulet for whatever reason 18:00 <@fredriq> at which point I'd say the only have themselves to blame 18:00 Noisytoot - players most certainly can steal things from monsters, even in vanilla nethack 18:00 <@fredriq> (The player also need to be at the correct altar, of course) 18:00 K2: without polyself? 18:00 its easier to do in variants like evilhack where thievery is an actual skill 18:01 <@shadow_rider> k2 has a player monster ever ascended in evil 18:01 no 18:01 one came close 18:01 <@fredriq> I should make it a junethack trophy to have Rodney genocided 18:01 <@fredriq> 😛 18:02 I think it should be limited to player monsters that get the thievery skill 18:02 <@shadow_rider> maybe i have the patience to let a player monster win 18:02 which I think is convicts and rogues 18:02 <@shadow_rider> that sounds funny 18:02 <@fredriq> (If the player does somehow manage to cause it, all wizard harassments immediately halts) 18:02 <@shadow_rider> wait what would it take for that to happen 18:03 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Mon Hum Mal Law), 1403 points, T:2283, killed by a large cat called Benny 18:03 <@fredriq> Engineer Rodney to carry a scroll of genocide, confuse him and have him read the scroll 18:03 <@fredriq> All of those 3 things are possible, at least in theory 18:03 <@shadow_rider> oh 18:03 <@shadow_rider> for some reason i was envisioning something else 18:04 <@fredriq> I have confused him, and I have seen him read genocide when I've tried hard enough 18:04 <@fredriq> but not both 18:04 <@shadow_rider> would that not kill you also 18:04 <@fredriq> No? 18:04 <@fredriq> Rodney is Rodney 18:04 <@fredriq> not the player 18:04 <@fredriq> Confused genocide genocides the genocider 18:05 can monsters controlled-polyself? 18:05 <@fredriq> No 18:05 [hdf-us] [nh370] Dirge (Mon Hum Mal Cha) was bestowed with Fire Brand by Huan Ti, on T:4574 18:05 controlled-teleport? 18:05 <@fredriq> I've considered adding it, but haven't currently 18:05 <@fredriq> Yeah, they can do controlled teleports 18:05 <@fredriq> (even vanilla has this) 18:05 <@shadow_rider> did i misunderstand what you meant earlier 18:06 <@shadow_rider> about how a monster could theoretically geno the player 18:06 [hdf-us] [dnh] guest99987 (Bin Vam Fem Non), 44771 points, T:3946, killed by a lightning paraelemental 18:06 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: OK, so in vanilla, you can't genocide player roles and player races except for gnomes, dwarves (I don't know why) and the role+race corresponding to yourself 18:06 -!- Graznop has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06 <@fredriq> In FIQHack, the player role+race isn't arbitrarily exempt 18:07 other monsters are still arbitrarily exempt 18:07 <@fredriq> I also added gnomes+dwarves to the "can't be genocided" list, I don't know why vanilla lacks them atm 18:07 because gnomes and dwarves are randomly generated 18:07 elves, humans, and orcs aren't 18:07 <@fredriq> However, self-geno bypass inability to genocide 18:07 <@fredriq> Meaning that the player can always genocide themselves, mimicking how vanilla works 18:08 <@fredriq> But.. so can other monsters who normally can't be genocided 18:08 <@fredriq> This means that, as long as the ungenocideable monster is intelligent enough to read genocide, it can genocide itself 18:08 <@fredriq> whether it's an Aleax, an Archon, or the Wizard of Yendor 18:09 can the riders self-genocide? 18:09 <@fredriq> In theory yes, but I'm not sure if they use the item (do Riders even use items?) 18:09 <@shadow_rider> ok that makes more sense 18:09 @?death 18:09 Death (&) | Lvl: 30 | Diff: 34 | Spd: 12 | Res: fire cold sleep shock poison petrification drain | Confer: nothing | MR: 100 | Gen: unique | AC: -5 | Atk: 8d8 touch Death, 8d8 touch Death | Align: 0 | flies, regen, seeinvis, nopoly, stalker, infravis 18:09 I think they're intelligent enough 18:09 <@shadow_rider> riders will use potions at least 18:09 @fredriq: Pestilence will quaff !oSickness to heal itself 18:10 <@fredriq> Oh right, that's true 18:10 I'm not sure if Death will zap /oDeath at itself; that might be somewhat broken 18:10 <@fredriq> but do they pickup items? 18:10 <@fredriq> they'd need to pickup genocide 18:10 <@fredriq> ais523: hmm, now I wonder if they can do that in FIQHack... 18:10 <@fredriq> Death rays are considered "helpful" to Riders for the purpos of scoring 18:11 <@fredriq> meaning that hostile monsters don't care about hitting Death in crossfire if they zap Death 18:11 All of them? 18:11 <@fredriq> Just death 18:11 <@fredriq> Death ray on Death the rider, that is 18:11 Can Death learn finger of death and cast it at itself? 18:12 <@fredriq> (to clarify: monsters, when using ray/immediate wands, will look at all monsters that it will hit, not just the actual target, and calculate a usefulness score based on it) 18:12 <@fredriq> this means that monsters can raybounce 18:13 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: hmm, I'm not sure if Riders can generate with spells 18:13 <@fredriq> but I don't think Riders have any skill with spells 18:13 <@fredriq> Finger of death is level 7 18:13 <@fredriq> so it wouldn't learn it anyway 18:14 <@fredriq> speaking of monster spell generation 18:14 <@fredriq> I consider spellbook generation in FIQHack to be a vast improvement over vanilla.. and the funny thing is that I didn't even set out to do that 18:14 <@fredriq> it was a side effect of the way monsters are assigned spells 18:14 [hdf-us] [dnh] Som (Dhl-Hea Dro Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:5903 18:15 <@fredriq> FIQHack will assign random spells to monsters based on whether or not they're a spellcaster, and based on their skills in various spell schools 18:15 <@fredriq> And when a monster is given a spell, they have a chance to also generate with the corresponding book 18:15 Can the player cast double trouble? 18:15 <@fredriq> This means that higher-level books are more common the deeper you go 18:15 <@fredriq> Double Trouble is exclusive to the Wizard of Yendor. It's also nerfed 18:16 <@fredriq> Because with the improvement to monster AI, there was no reason for Rodney to cast it ASAP whenever there wasn't 2 Rodneys 18:16 <@fredriq> So for a time, it was much more tricky to kill Rodney in fiqhack, because killing one would usually just lead to the other immediately casting Double Trouble 18:17 <@fredriq> He still does this, but there is now a timer before the spell kicks in 18:17 <@fredriq> it kicks in after 2d6 turns 18:18 <@fredriq> Also, monsters know how turn undead works 18:18 <@fredriq> This made the above pre-nerf Double Trouble even worse 18:18 <@fredriq> because in some cases, if he spawned with turn undead learned, he could cast Double Trouble, then revive his own corpse 18:19 <@fredriq> iirc hothraxxa once had a game with 3-4 Rodneys running about 18:19 <@fredriq> this was what caused me to nerf the spell 18:19 did hothraxxa win that game? 18:19 <@fredriq> I think so? this was on Earth 18:19 <@fredriq> so it was easier to deathzap them all 18:20 in that case, there might not be a problem :-D 18:20 <@fredriq> lol 18:20 [hdf-us] [dnh] KrO2 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) wished for "blessed fixed ring of polymorph control", on T:40916 18:20 -!- stoicjin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20 <@fredriq> hothraxxa has a somewhat interesting way of dealing with fiqhack astral 18:21 can monsters pray? 18:21 <@fredriq> "monsters is going to summon a billion more? fine, I'll just use a magic harp" 18:21 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: It's on the todo 18:21 [hdf-us] [slshm] yury (Wiz Dop Mal Cha), 4087 points, T:1885, killed by a dwarf 18:21 <@fredriq> to make player monsters and all priests able to pray 18:21 <@shadow_rider> i don’t want to experience fh astral again 18:22 <@shadow_rider> and apparently i didn’t even get the full experience 18:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) found Sunsword on the floor, on T:31083 18:22 how can players get corpses for sacrificing if create monster creates hostile monsters? 18:23 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: a few days ago, I made some adjustments to covetous-warping, which opened up some alternative Astral strategies. I don't fully know the implications, but it'd be interesting to see someone abuse it 18:23 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: I assume you mean tame monsters (and even if it did create hostiles, all summons are now transient and doesn't leave corpses). FIQHack allows sacrificing gold and permafood 18:24 yes 18:24 <@fredriq> This change was done as part of changing how monster summons work, because I didn't want to nerf altar sacrifices 18:24 <@fredriq> So the changes were done to compensate 18:25 in some really early version of NetHack, or possibly even Hack, there was a bug where you could get huge benefits from sacrificing food rations 18:25 <@fredriq> anyway, wrt covetous-warp: Covetous-warping once again works in all areas, including the Planes, and the 500-turn cooldown was removed. However, it will only allow you to covetous-warp to objects that you covet 18:25 because the code just looked at the nutrition value of what was sacrificed 18:25 <@shadow_rider> interesting 18:25 <@shadow_rider> i just read the commit 18:25 <@shadow_rider> did you have any ideas? 18:26 <@shadow_rider> i have one :) 18:26 uuuugh glass all over the kitchen floor 18:26 dragons seem like very good steeds in fiqhack (flying, 20 speed, reflection-bypassing breath attack) 18:26 <@fredriq> This, combined with the fact that object teleportation ignore noteleport, means that you can throw the Book of the Dead on the floor, zap it with tele, and then covetous-warp to whatever location it ended up at 18:26 <@shadow_rider> hah yeah that’s what i was thinking 18:26 how can the player covetous-warp? 18:26 empty glass milk jug fell off the top of the fridge and shattered, glass everywhere. all clean now but uuugh 18:26 <@fredriq> By polymorphing into a monster that covet the Book 18:26 let me ask you this, would you willingly implement a change that you know players would hate 18:27 dnethack has a spirit that allows player covetous warping (dantalion) but it's blocked on astral 18:27 you can still use enki's power to teleport to open doorways though 18:27 <@fredriq> anselmus: If I know it will be universally hated, no. This is why pets can't choke on food 18:27 anselmus - all players or just a few? 18:27 <@shadow_rider> lol i would love for pets to choke on food 18:27 <@shadow_rider> sorry that came out wrong 18:27 acehack has that 18:28 just wanted to gauge his level of commitment to his principles or whatever 18:28 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: technically it isn't really covetous-warping, but yeah, I had a ton of fun with Thought Travel 18:28 rarely do you get a condition where 100% of all players hate something. even with the mysterious force, some players still think its a good idea 18:28 <@fredriq> back when it was fully unrestricted 18:28 [hdf-us] [xnh] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) attained the rank of Student of Metals (level 18), on T:27903 18:28 K2: for me, the existence of the mysterious force makes the way *down* through Gehennom more fun, and the fun I get from that is more than the annoyance I get from it on the way up 18:28 <@fredriq> it was a lot of fun to use covetous-warp shenanigans as a player 18:28 so for me, it's a net positive 18:28 <@shadow_rider> fiq how does covetous warping work if there is more than 1 thing you want to on the level 18:29 why is it more fun to dig everything out than to not? 18:29 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: one sec, let me show 18:29 K2: no u i'm the most reasonable person here! 18:29 hah 18:29 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/1125916351865831534/image.png 18:29 <@shadow_rider> cool 18:30 <@shadow_rider> you should keep talking 18:30 <@fredriq> it's not possible to covet more than one thing in fiqhack as a player 18:30 <@shadow_rider> the more you talk about your game the more i like it 18:30 Noisytoot: a) it gives you something to do in Gehennom, b) it requires resources so it means you think more about what you need to carry with you, c) if things go disastrously wrong and you have to manually run through Gehennom twice or more, it makes the subsequent trips less tedious 18:30 <@shadow_rider> ah 18:30 <@fredriq> because only demon lords and Rodney covet more than 1 thing, and the player can't polymorph into those 18:30 @shadow_rider until you experience soldiers with wands. then you'll hate it 18:30 :P 18:30 like that time Rodney read a cursed scroll of teleportation and I had to scan the entire dungeon looking for the Book of the Dead 18:30 <@shadow_rider> oh i have :) 18:30 i only bitch about injustices, for the children 18:30 <@fredriq> but I created the above interface, in case there ends up being multi-item cases the player can polyself into in the future 18:30 ais523: it only requires food if you do it with a pickaxe, and you have a lot by that point 18:31 a) it requires fitting the pickaxe into the "set of things I carry", b) in 3.7 there are levels that need other items to make shortcuts 18:31 <@fredriq> ais523: that reminds me of an idea I had for an adjustment to scroll of recall yesterday 18:31 <@shadow_rider> wands we’re fine i thought if you can crown before you run into soldiers 18:31 lava levels, for example, you need wands of cold, or maybe scrolls of earth 18:31 <@fredriq> (it's a scroll in fiqhack) 18:31 or just permanently wear an amulet of flying 18:31 <@fredriq> namely, if cursed and there is no monster on the level, look at other levels and summon a monster from elsewhere 18:31 <@fredriq> prioritying uniques 18:32 is this a magic whistle effect? or something more complex? 18:32 <@fredriq> if I did that, I could reasonably allow monsters to invoke artifacts as a strategy 18:32 <@fredriq> without making the Dark One impossible to deal with 18:32 @fredriq if you got back into updating fiqhack that'd be nice. could flag fiqhack as 'actively developed' instead of current 'rarely maintained' 18:33 something that amuses me is that in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon, the magic whistle effect is on a single-use consumable that's flagged as being unusable in boss battles, and it's *still* really powerful 18:33 k2: it already had changes for junethack 2024 18:33 <@fredriq> ais523: Scrolls of recall work like this: Cursed=summon hostiles on the level to you, Uncursed=summon tames on the level to you, Blessed=same, but works across the entire dungeon. Confused does the reverse, it teleports you to them instead 18:33 heh, all three BCUs of that seem pretty useful, as does the confused effect 18:33 could that be used to skip the ascension run? 18:33 <@fredriq> It was added as a way to deal with level teleporters for pets 18:33 although, magic whistles duplicate the uncursed effect 18:34 park a dog on level 1, confused recall to level 1 with the amulet 18:34 I assume the Amulet blocks it, as usual for levelport effects 18:34 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: The Amulet blocks level teleportation 18:34 <@fredriq> (In both directions) 18:34 what if the pet has the amulet and you teleport it to you? 18:34 <@fredriq> That's what I meant iwth "in both directions" 18:34 ah, I see 18:34 anselmus there have been two commits to fiqhack this year (june 23rd and july 2nd). before that, a year passed since the last one 18:34 what about using the cursed effect to summon Rodney out of his tower, or the HPoM to the Sanctum upstairs? 18:35 <@fredriq> No steed branchport skip bug 😛 18:35 that is not 'actively developed' 18:35 <@shadow_rider> heh i was about to ask 18:35 well maybe he took a sabbatical lol 18:35 actually, no, isn't the HPoM flagged as peaceful until you set foot in the temple? 18:35 <@fredriq> @ais523: Both of these should work, but neither level are exactly empty 18:35 our pastor took his after 7 years too 18:35 maybe it's just complete 18:35 <@fredriq> so it sounds like quite the hassle 18:35 no reason to update it if it's already perfect and has no bugs 18:35 i remember when fiq used to push out new commits daily. miss that 18:35 the top level of Rodney's tower is mostly made of fish 18:35 Noisytoot LOL 18:36 <@fredriq> and monsters outside the tower 18:36 there are land-dwelling monsters there but not that many 18:36 that's hilarious 18:36 <@shadow_rider> hearing fiq explain the design goals it feels pretty complete 18:36 <@fredriq> K2: not quite a year passed 18:36 so perfect that there's no need to even play it 18:36 <@fredriq> only 364d 23h 30min 🙂 18:36 <@shadow_rider> not totally but done a great job 18:36 heh 18:36 30 min 18:37 <@fredriq> but yeah, I was mildly amused when I realized it was almost exactly a year on the dot 18:37 i think it's safe to round up 18:37 the angle of the axis the clock rotates around the earth on means you can round 18:38 in all serious, FIQ has some great ideas 18:38 <@fredriq> ais523: There are already ways to bypass wiztower to deal with Rodney 18:38 <@fredriq> so I don't consider recalling him to be an issue 18:38 but they're all fucked up because of the wand balance patch 18:38 * K2 gasps 18:38 :P 18:38 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) found the Longbow of Diana on the floor, on T:32517 18:38 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) killed Scorpius, on T:32519 18:39 <@fredriq> There are the vanilla means (drum of earthquake, mind flayer blast), and the recent covetous-warp change is likely the most efficient method by a significant margin 18:39 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:32520 18:39 <@fredriq> and there is scroll of recall 18:39 I got my tows blown off my a solider in the tourist quest 18:39 toes 18:39 *seriousness ugh 18:39 fwiw I don't consider skipping Rodney's to be particularly broken 18:39 <@fredriq> agreed 18:39 in my last few games I levported from the beehive up to the top level 18:39 which is basically a skip, just a little more convoluted 18:39 <@fredriq> incidentally my first few ascensions skipped wiztower alltogether 18:39 because you couldn't figure out how to get in?# 18:40 <@fredriq> IIRC both of those games used an arch-lich to lure Rodney outside 18:40 another "skip" is reading blessed magic mapping on Rodney's level to find his secret doors 18:40 <@shadow_rider> are there any new monsters that can covet warp 18:40 <@shadow_rider> or just the usual one 18:40 <@shadow_rider> ones 18:40 <@fredriq> the 2nd game was pacifist, so I had a pet archon and an arch-lich 18:40 <@fredriq> I don't know why I had an arch-lich the first game... I might have used polyself, I don't remember 18:41 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: in FIQHack? FIQHack only adds a single monster to the game 18:41 <@fredriq> shimmering dragons 18:41 they shimmer 18:41 <@fredriq> (and its baby form, so 2 monsters I guess) 18:42 <@fredriq> They have intrinsic displacement 18:42 <@fredriq> Which is fully operational in fiqhack, unlike all other variants which tend to cheat 18:42 <@fredriq> GruntHack comes the closest, but doesn't take care of the mvm bit 18:42 passive attack for shimmering dragon - all your stuff gets covered in glitter that will never fully wash off 18:42 <@shadow_rider> dangit i was hoping shimmering dragons would have covetous warp 18:42 <@shadow_rider> :p 18:42 <@fredriq> They also breath a stunning gas 18:42 <@fredriq> which is why their DSM grants displacement and stun res 18:42 oooh that's evil 18:43 <@shadow_rider> i think i genocided dragons when i played 18:43 <@shadow_rider> and fiq was like that’s cheating :O 18:43 <@fredriq> Yeah, I've noticed many fiqhack players do that 18:43 <@fredriq> I've considered making DSM unattainable if you do that 😛 18:44 I have done that even in vanilla 18:44 do it fiq 18:44 <@fredriq> since, well, you can't get corpses.. so why should you be able to get DSM? 18:44 it seems wrong for DSM to be better by that much than everything else 18:44 <@shadow_rider> will it destroy dsm retroactively tho 18:44 I like the dtsund-DSM idea 18:44 you know what has pretty balanced dsm? dnethack 18:44 ais523 its been great 18:45 <@fredriq> ais523: I did buff some of the other armor types, but people still tend to keep to DSM 18:45 <@fredriq> Some of that is obviously just inertia from vanilla, but I do suspect that DSM is still the strongest 18:45 i think fourk had it first, then xnethack, now evilhack and by extension hack'em 18:45 its been well received 18:45 <@fredriq> Shadow_Rider: what happens to corpses if you geno? 18:45 <@fredriq> if they vanish, DSM should likewise 18:45 <@shadow_rider> ahah 18:45 <@fredriq> and vice versa 18:46 are there any good guides/walkthroughs for dnh now? 18:46 been a year since i tried it, and the wiki was wanting 18:46 <@shadow_rider> anselmus it’s called nethack-variants 18:46 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed the Goblin King, on T:1731 (0:29:35) 18:46 its hard to have up to date info 18:46 <@fredriq> I think the strongest item in fiqhack might be potions of wonder 18:47 <@fredriq> in hindsight, I think implementing them might have been a mistake, but I'm not going to remove them now lol 18:47 <@fredriq> also they're fun to drink 18:47 <@fredriq> even if it's not really the optimal use for them 18:47 shadow: well you didn't ascend it without spoilers right? 18:48 I think they may be the good sort of mistake? 18:49 i don't think there was even a general tips page 18:49 fiq has a good one 18:49 <@fredriq> ais523: something I noticed after implementing them is that like 50%+ of wishes are for potions of wonder 18:50 <@fredriq> trumping markers as general purpose wish 18:50 there's an awkward balance between consumables and gear in NetHack 18:50 most players prefer the gear approach to things 18:51 a couple of years ago I was playing a lot of Netrunner (a collectible card game) and it really got me thinking about that quite a lot 18:51 what do you do it you get something very bad like slow from drinking them? 18:51 is it permanent? 18:51 the obvious way to play is to build up a big board state with lots of gear, but then I discovered it was a lot of fun to play entirely with consumables 18:51 <@fredriq> yes and no 18:52 <@fredriq> it will last forever, but there are ways to deal with it 18:52 <@shadow_rider> anselmus: which is your fav variant (or least bad) out of curiosity? 18:52 <@fredriq> iirc prayer can remove permanent slowness 18:52 YANI: potions of wonder give both a positive and a negative effect, on both dip and quaff 18:52 does monster polymorph time out? 18:52 (for FIQHack) 18:52 <@fredriq> and if that isn't an option, blue DSM blocks the property 18:52 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: it's on the todo, I need to figure out a way to feasibly get good pets in fiqhack first 18:52 <@fredriq> (that don't involve wishes) 18:53 i might try to put together some dnh early game stuff + a beginner route 18:53 what about conflict or polymorph? 18:53 (from potions of wonder) 18:53 <@fredriq> Conflict is on the todo, I have already figured out what I want to do with it 18:53 the idea of what a beginner route first asc run should look like for dnh is starting to shape up and the "optional" parts to skip are becoming a lot more obvious 18:53 <@fredriq> I just haven't implemented it yet 18:53 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Potion_of_wonder 18:54 shadow: obviously i like the ones that are similar to 343, but it's hard to try out all the variants and i wish there was a learning mode so you can experiment without starting over 18:54 <@fredriq> I intend to overhaul the way conflict works, so I can make it symmetrical in a way that makes sense 18:54 <@fredriq> Instead of messing with AI, it will make it so that at the end of a turn, all monsters on the level picks a nearby monster at random, and does a melee attack at it for free 18:54 one yasd/yaad and i'm ready to swear off that variant 18:55 <@fredriq> and doesn't care about "allegiance" of the monster (tame/peaceful/hostile) 18:55 anselmus: there is 18:55 it's called explore mode 18:55 <@shadow_rider> yeah wiz mode would be nice 18:55 ^ this 18:55 <@shadow_rider> and yeah some let you do explore mode on server 18:55 what Noisytoot said 18:55 <@fredriq> This will not afflict the one causing conflict, unless another monster is also causing conflict 18:55 you can do explore mode with any of the nethack 3 based variants (dunno about nh4 based) 18:55 <@fredriq> Causing conflict affects all monsters within 8 tiles (this is already a thing in vanilla IIRC) 18:56 nethack4.org allows explore mode games 18:56 <@fredriq> Multiple conflict-causing monsters don't stack effects (monsters will only get one free attack, not several) 18:56 you need to turn explore mode on in the options before you start the game, though 18:56 yup 18:56 I think hardfought NH4 probably also allows them, although I'm less sure on that 18:56 <@fredriq> If I implement this, the AI would likely learn how to abuse conflict; either with tame monsters, or situation involving cockatrices 18:56 K2: all the easy ones are well known to me already hehe 18:56 (it might even allow wizard mode games? that's blocked in the server code but hdf isn't using that) 18:57 heh 18:57 ais523 you can set explore mode for nh4 on hardfought 18:57 <@fredriq> (consider this situation: a player is standing next to trice) 18:57 no wizmode games 18:57 <@fredriq> in such a situation, causing conflict will give the trice several free turns to attack the player 18:57 fwiw I'm not entirely against the idea of wizmode on public servers, but there is too much scope to interfere with other players' games unless it's carefully thought through 18:57 <@fredriq> also, if a player isn't wielding weapons or wearing gloves, oops 18:58 <@shadow_rider> anselmus you were mentioning hackem earlier, i was doing explore mode on hdf to test out things without compiling it 18:58 <@shadow_rider> helps test out unknown mechanics too if you don’t want to try it out for the first time in the middle of a key moment or sum 18:59 <@fredriq> one YANI I have is adding eyes in FIQHack that have auras, similar to Archons, zombies and floating eyes 18:59 sure i can look into that 18:59 <@fredriq> both positive and negative 18:59 <@fredriq> there could be one with an aura of conflict 😛 18:59 <@fredriq> but that's just tentative ideas, nothing I have actually planned 18:59 but i don't really need 100 pages of spoilers, just like a checklist of things you need before X etc would be helpful 19:00 <@fredriq> ais523: what do you think of fiqhack's adjustments to floating eyes? 19:00 <@fredriq> I dislike the NH4 effect so I changed it to an effect of my own 19:00 what's your effect? 19:01 <@shadow_rider> i’d be happy to write some basic strategy for variants in more comfortable with 19:01 <@shadow_rider> which is not many 19:01 <@fredriq> Floating eyes cause an aura of slowness, and hitting it melee give you a very long duration of slowness (hundreds of turns) 19:01 -!- stoicjin has joined #hardfought 19:01 although I could probably write a basic strategy guide for NH4, it wouldn't look significantly different from one for 3.4.3 (and indeed, if it is different, that's probably ab u) 19:01 * a bug 19:01 <@fredriq> Also, it's part of a general fiqhack change to telepathy 19:01 -!- stoicjin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02 in general I dislike things that force you to slow down on laggy connections 19:02 just write one, i'm sure it will be good 19:02 <@fredriq> FIQHack implements something called "cooperative telepathy". All telepathic monsters can sense every other telepathic monster on the level 19:03 Did you find that monster selfzapping polymorph crash bug? 19:03 <@fredriq> This means that you can sense tame monsters who have acquired intrinsic telepathy, plus floating eyes and mind flayers in general, if you have intrinsic telepathy 19:03 <@shadow_rider> nh4 guide: 3.4.3 except with awesome autoexplore so be sure to spam it 19:03 evilhack has that 19:03 <@fredriq> Noisytoot: are you talking to me? 19:03 no, ais523 19:03 <@fredriq> Oh ok 19:03 I didn't look for it, sorry 19:03 it helps a lot to have a save file that can reproduce the bug 19:04 that game was on hardfought and has since died 19:04 crash bugs in NH4 are usually 100% determinisic and happen again if you reload the save 19:04 <@fredriq> NH4 has enhanced watchmode on hdf, right? 19:04 should do, even if there's no way to access it 19:04 I don't know whether hdf keeps game replay files around, but if it does, the same game conditions would be easy to recreate 19:04 <@fredriq> "Enhanced watchmode" is what I call my efforts to adapt it to dgamelaunch 19:04 <@fredriq> I am fairly sure nh4 has it 19:04 ah, I see 19:05 <@fredriq> It was initially added to fiqhack, iirc I submitted a PR/patch to K2 to add it for nh4 19:05 I think it does 19:05 I wonder if it would be possible to set up some sort of automated "back up the save file whenever the desync dialog comes up" system 19:05 when I watch nh4 games on hdf, it adapts to my terminal size 19:05 for public servers, to make recreating crash bugs trivial 19:05 same for fiqhack 19:05 @fredriq Tangles added it to nh4 on hardfought, yes 19:05 <@fredriq> Yeah it's there 19:05 been there for a good long while 19:05 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/1125925490557984818/image.png 19:06 there are some commands that can be used in watchmode in NH4, presumably that still works even through dfl 19:06 * dgl 19:06 <@fredriq> "Size: N/A" in watchlist is a giveaway 19:06 K wl d 19:06 * I wonder whether disconnecting is 'q' or 'S' 19:06 <@fredriq> IIRC both works 19:07 <@fredriq> "WATCH MODE (watching FIQ, 'm' to mail, 'S' to stop watching)" 19:07 (sorry about the typos, I'm in a dark room where I can't really see the keyboard, and sometimes my fingers are so misaligned I accidentally hit return rather than backspace) 19:07 q is not a command that can reasonably be used while watching 19:07 <@fredriq> Yeah, q (really, whatever the player has quaff bound to) works 19:07 …unless the watch party wants to snaffle some booze from the player's inventory, I guess 19:08 <@fredriq> ais523: The client hijacks quaff 19:08 <@fredriq> and movecommand 19:08 <@fredriq> similar to how replaymode hijacks movement commands 19:08 right, it makes sense to take commands that make no sense when watching and repurpose them 19:08 <@fredriq> I liked how I could reasonably map S as a mnemonic to "stop watching" 19:09 <@fredriq> it's really just the save command 😛 19:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) chose an elven dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1299 19:09 NH4 doesn't really have a save command, *every* command saves 19:09 S just closes the client 19:10 …which is why it was the natural choice for stop-watching / stop-replaying 19:10 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Elf Fem Cha), 3405 points, T:4203, quit 19:10 <@fredriq> hmm, I had almost forgotten that fiqhack made S! useless 19:10 <@fredriq> I think I was concerned about accidental typos 19:11 <@fredriq> on a bad connection 19:11 S!y was chosen specifically to be almost impossible to type by mistake 19:11 <@fredriq> you need q!y in fiqhack to quit 19:11 I guess it's maybe a typo from Sy? 19:11 <@fredriq> it is a single button away from Sy 19:11 <@fredriq> yes 19:11 but ! doesn't even do anything in NetHack, and is nowhere near S, y or n 19:12 <@fredriq> I'm pretty sure ! does do something in the game. Nothing useful though 19:12 I think the solution I used in AceHack was for #quit to not autocomplete 19:12 you always had to type the whole thing 19:12 <@fredriq> doesn't it open a shell or something? 19:12 ! opens a shell 19:12 <@fredriq> Which is inaccessible on server, obviously 19:12 it is generally inferior to ^Z unless you are, for some reason, playing on an OS that does not support multitasking 19:12 and neither is particularly usable if you are on an OS that has multiple virtual terminals 19:12 * particularly useful 19:13 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:3059 19:13 this basically narrows things down to "DOS on bare metal" which is a possible configuration but not a likely one 19:13 …and even then, you could save and reload, there isn't much need to keep the process alive 19:13 <@fredriq> I might also have wanted to be more friendly to NH3 users. I don't really remember, this was years ago 19:13 why q!y? 19:13 q is quaff 19:14 <@fredriq> sorry, M-q 19:14 <@fredriq> #quit works too of course if you can't use M-q 19:14 I was going to say, then how to people quit if using alt_is_esc? 19:15 <@fredriq> btw ais523, would you have any idea over why gnollhack shows gibberish in curses UI for me on hardfought? 19:15 <@fredriq> it looks like this 19:15 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/1125927903905976370/image.png 19:16 yes, this is a common error that is not entirely trivial to explain 19:16 <@fredriq> hm I wonder if the colored messages were inspired by that one nh4 message channel system, I forgot what the general change was called 19:16 <@fredriq> ais523: it only occurs for gnollhack specifically 19:16 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law), 2364 points, T:1917, killed by a barrow wight of Raijin 19:16 <@fredriq> it makes it pretty much unplayable on hardfought for me 19:16 basically, there are a range of different ways to do DECgraphics at the terminal control code level 19:17 none of them work in 100% of situations 19:17 <@fredriq> hmm, but this is a 3.6+ variant, which means I think it uses my code that attempts to make it agnostic 19:17 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 1740 points, T:3521, quit 19:17 <@fredriq> by using curses-specific code handling 19:17 but the way to think about it is that there are basically two levels of indirection: each character output can be output as either a G0 or G1 character, and the meaning of "G0" and "G1" can further be redefined at runtime 19:17 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law), 1863 points, T:2980, killed by a magic missile, while jumping around 19:18 <@fredriq> (and besides, it doesn't explain the borders) 19:18 now, there are two approaches to DECgraphics: a) configure G0 to be letters and G1 to be line-drawing, and then output letters as G0 or G1 appropriately 19:18 that looks like a room full of mummies 19:18 b) use only G0, but redefine what G0 means with every character output 19:18 @fredriq change symset:IBMgraphics to symset:curses 19:18 in your gnollhack cfg 19:18 <@fredriq> K2: doesn't help 19:18 <@fredriq> also, note the borders 19:19 <@fredriq> the curses borders I mean 19:19 yup i know 19:19 <@fredriq> it's not just the symset that is broken 19:19 <@fredriq> if the symset was the only issue, I could just play with plain graphics 19:19 b) does not work on all terminals; however, a) requires the terminals to be configured correctly, and some terminal code databases assume a particular G0 and G1 configuration without actually telling the terminal that that's the configuration they want 19:19 <@fredriq> it'd be a hassle (I don't like playing that way), but at least it'd be... adequate 19:20 <@fredriq> the whole codepage confusion is basically the main reason I wanted to replace curses with libuncursed 19:20 oh, there is *also* more than one way to specify that a character should be coming from G1, and the method that the curses library is using is apparently not compatible with the terminal 19:20 in putty to repvent that, there's a setting you can enabled that's called 'enable VT100 line drawing even in utf-8 mode' 19:20 *prevent 19:20 <@fredriq> but libuncursed has subtle changes beyond just the minor API changes, that makes NH3 cursesgraphics fundamentally incompatible with it 19:20 does your terminal have such a thing? 19:20 <@fredriq> I am using Windows Terminal 19:21 I did not find a 100% reliable way to do DECgraphics that works in all terminals, which is why libuncursed doesn't use it, and sticks to IBMgraphics or UTF-8 19:21 <@fredriq> I'm not talking about the utter garbage that is the CMD... thing 19:21 anyway, this error normally only happens when the terminal and curses library are running on different operating systems 19:21 <@fredriq> but that one terminal they made semi-recently that is a legitimate Linux-like terminal in terms of featureset 19:21 i'm not sure windows terminal allows you to be that granular with settings 19:21 but it sounds like that's the case in this case (@fredriq is on Windows, and hardfought… isn;t) 19:21 honestly if you're using windows OS, putty is the way to go 19:21 <@fredriq> ais523: The issue also happened back when I used linux 19:21 <@fredriq> it's not a Windows issue 19:22 basically the cause is that the terminal definition (which curses relies on) for the terminal doesn't match the behaviour of the actual terminal 19:22 windows command prompt and its new windows terminal has come a LONG way but putty is still the best to use 19:22 <@fredriq> K2: I am running wsl 19:22 yup 19:22 what i said still stands 19:23 <@fredriq> K2: Command prompt is awful 19:23 true 19:23 <@fredriq> I do not use it 19:23 but its still better than what it used to be 19:23 just saying 19:23 <@fredriq> What are the limitations of the windows terminal out of curiousity? 19:23 if on windows, use putty (or kitty) 19:23 in putty to repvent that, there's a setting you can enabled that's called 'enable VT100 line drawing even in utf-8 mode' ← thanks for telling me about that, PuTTY not doing VT-100 line drawing in UTF-8 mode is a longstanding bug that I had to warn people about when they tried to play NetHack; nice to know that they fixed it, although the fact that it's behind a flag makes it seem as though it's actually a misfeature? 19:23 <@fredriq> Seems to be about on par with your average linux terminal IME 19:23 it might be interesting to run termtest on it 19:24 (which, sadly, I never actually finished writing) 19:24 or the older version 19:24 <@fredriq> ais523: got a link? 19:24 give me a moment; it's online but I've forgotten where, I'm going to ls a few directories on the server 19:24 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 4193 points, T:2294, killed by a yeti 19:24 [hdf-us] [nh370] Skillfulhacks (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 272 points, T:1464, killed by a large kobold 19:24 [hdf-eu] [ndnh] Noisytoot (Bar Eth Mal Neu) destroyed the Lokoban Pinata, on T:7742 19:25 <@fredriq> K2: I just did some tests 19:25 <@fredriq> it works fine in xterm-256color 19:25 <@fredriq> which is what my $TERM is set to normally outside tmux 19:25 <@fredriq> in tmux (screen-256color), it does the above 19:26 @fredriq: the old version is a set of files: http://nethack4.org/media/vt100/charset.vt100 http://nethack4.org/media/vt100/colors.vt100 http://nethack4.org/media/vt100/cursormotion.vt100 http://nethack4.org/media/vt100/strings.vt100 19:26 you basically just cat those files to the terminal and take a screenshot 19:26 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/1125930669273518110/image.png 19:26 charset is probably the relevant one for this 19:26 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) murdered Clifford, her faithful little dog, on T:1456 (0:09:42) 19:26 @fredriq aaaaah 19:27 <@fredriq> DECgraphics still breaks, but default (cursesgraphics) works 19:27 IIRC the "screen" terminal type in curses generally relies on a particular G0/G1 config 19:27 i havent played with windows terminal settings in awhile, where do you set $TERM ? 19:28 <@fredriq> DECgraphics breaking means it probably doesn't have my DECgraphics improvements to curses 19:28 <@fredriq> I sent a PR some years ago, merged in vanilla nowdays, that translates DECgraphics characters to the curses macros 19:28 [hdf-eu] [hackm] UristMcRaven (Wiz Elf Fem Neu), 904 points, T:1815, killed by a kobold, while fainted from lack of food 19:28 <@fredriq> since those are far more likely to work as they should in curses 19:28 the newer terminal tester is an executable which can be compiled from the source code at http://nethack4.org/pastebin/termtest.c 19:28 <@fredriq> (and if they don't, there are bigger problems) 19:28 but it's a) incomplete and b) has no good way of reporting the results 19:30 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/1125931724891771039/image.png 19:30 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/1125931725130825748/image.png 19:30 <@fredriq> results of the above files 19:30 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 4820 points, T:6519, killed by an invisible stalker 19:31 OK, those outputs are correct, so it's simply a case of the curses library failing to configure G0 and G1 correctly before using them 19:32 it would not surprise me if catting charset.vt100 before running Gnollhack suddenly caused Gnollhack to work 19:32 (correct for the subset of codes that Gnollhack is trying to use, at least) 19:33 it doesn't seem to support the colon-based syntax for 256-color mode, nor IBMgraphics 19:33 but these are reasonable omissions 19:33 <@fredriq> ais523: it doesn't, but then again, it probably reconfigures stuff as part of the ssh initialization 19:33 <@fredriq> for dgl 19:34 oh right 19:34 there were lots of echoed capital Ms 19:35 that looks a bit like Gnollhack is using the meta bit for specifying G1, rather than SI/SO – that isn't supported on most modern terminals because it clashes with UTF-8 19:35 <@fredriq> I am pretty sure GnollHack doesn't mess with the curses code at all 19:35 the work-around there is to use a terminal type that defines either a UTF-8-based or a 7-bit terminal 19:35 <@fredriq> so there might be some sort of librarry linking confusion or something? 19:36 the way curses is linked is really confusing, it actually broke aimake at one point 19:36 curses is two libraries nowadays, libncurses and libtinfo 19:36 [hdf-us] [nh370] Goran (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 630 points, T:1778, killed by a dwarf queen 19:36 <@fredriq> but NH4 doesn't use curses? 19:36 indeed, but I have tried to build programs that did with aimake in the past 19:36 including, I think, old versions of NH4 19:37 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed Gollum, on T:1161 (1:00:22) 19:37 aimake 1 was written in a week, because I wanted to release NH4 by April 1 19:37 but couldn't get it to build 19:37 <@fredriq> ais523: iirc a major hurdle I had with trying to get libuncursed to even run in the first place alongside my experimentation with porting the curses windowport to libuncursed, was the NH3 build system 19:37 <@fredriq> I didn't really understand it 19:37 libuncursed build is a little complex because of its use of shared libraries 19:37 <@fredriq> so it's possible that NH3's weird build system is causing problems too 😛 19:38 (which NH3 doesn't use at all) 19:38 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Goblin King, on T:1424 (1:01:46) 19:38 I had this vision that people could take an existing libuncursed-using executable, and combine it with their own interface plugin to add an entirely new interface 19:38 also, this means that if you build (say) a combined SDL/terminal executable, you can run it in terminal mode without having libsdl2 available 19:39 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3318 (0:22:10) 19:39 the tradeoff is probably worth it in some cases? but not worth it in others 19:39 <@fredriq> I recall libuncursed SDL having severe rendering problems 19:39 so do I 19:39 <@fredriq> I think I addressed some of them in fiqhack 19:39 <@fredriq> most importantly the blink spam 19:39 some of them appeared to behave differently between using software and hardware rendering 19:40 <@fredriq> because it made it flat-out unplayable 19:40 which means that either a) it's a bug in SDL or b) libuncursed was invoking undefined behaviour somehow 19:40 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Fem Law), 630 points, T:835, killed by hitting herself in the face 19:40 <@fredriq> the windowport I used at the time (probably openbox) did some really weird things with libuncursed SDL 19:40 <@fredriq> moving a window would quque up like a million resize events 19:41 <@fredriq> so once you let go of the window after moving it, it would blink for a while 19:41 oh, libuncursed SDL has had bugs with resizes for ages 19:41 <@fredriq> IIRC I made libuncursed SDL chew up excess resize events 19:41 <@fredriq> which fixed the most glaring issues 19:41 -!- Menchers has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:41 <@fredriq> but it's still not a very good experience IIRC 19:41 I think I fixed some or all of them? but there were bugs where, e.g., you could resize the window and it would gradually slide towards the corner of the screen 19:41 the basic problem is that if you resized the window, libuncursed would output a code that said "OK, I think the window size is now x by y" for ttyrec purposes 19:42 and some terminals, upon seeing that, would resize the window to the size it already had and for some reason this wasn't a no-op 19:42 <@fredriq> hence the blink 19:42 like, it would move slightly, or output more terminal-size-changed messages, or the like 19:43 in retrospect the obvious fix is for *libuncursed* to ignore terminal-size-changed messages if they change the size to the size it already thinks the window has 19:43 but even then you can have problems if a window is being continuously resized, e.g. if you're dragging one of the edges 19:44 fwiw, I now think the correct way to do things is a) libuncursed to be purely terminal-based: no graphical equivalent; b) to write a terminal executable designed for use with libuncursed, that handles things like vt_tiledata 19:44 although the problem with that is that the game executable can't easily specify a tileset 19:44 the big advantage is that it'd work for tiles over ssh 19:44 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law), 516 points, T:383, killed by a gnome lord 19:45 <@fredriq> wstty does handle tilesets I think 19:45 <@fredriq> so it has clearly been done in the past 19:45 -!- docpi has quit [Quit: braaaaaainnnss!] 19:46 <@fredriq> one thing I want to do in fiqhack but can't atm is 256color 19:46 <@fredriq> so I can do fancier animations 19:46 <@fredriq> and more bgcolor freedom 19:47 how should libuncursed handle 256color on a terminal that can't handle it? just output the codes anyway and break? 19:47 <@fredriq> just for fun I once tested PMD-like low HP warnings, but I never made it publically available 😛 19:48 doesn't NH4 already have those? 19:48 border of the entire interface goes red 19:48 <@fredriq> not the blinking 19:48 ah right, not the blinking 19:48 I think some people have suggested turning the player's @ red on low HP 19:48 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) became literate by reading a book, on T:3834 (0:31:51) 19:48 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 3325 points, T:2271, killed by a homunculus, while frozen by a monster's gaze 19:48 there is a hunger warning too for Weak, which is also inspired by PMD 19:49 <@fredriq> as for 256color: you can detect 256color support with cursor pos, right? 19:49 (although, when you enter the max-hunger status in PMD, you get three force-Mores in a row) 19:49 sort of, but there are terminals which understand the 256color codes but cannot render them 19:49 so the cursor position moves correctly and then everything comes out in gray 19:49 <@fredriq> ahh, yeah that could cause trouble 19:49 additionally, the semicolon-based code (which is more widely implemented) is ambiguous 19:50 and can sometimes form a valid command for non-256color terminals 19:50 <@fredriq> and there is no way to detect this failure? 19:50 what? isn't that the IRC color codes that's ambiguous? 19:50 no, because the terminal understands the code, everything you do to check if it understands the code will act as though it's supported 19:50 with the possible exception of asking the terminal for the palette 19:50 but very few terminals will actually tell you their 256-color palette on request 19:51 <@fredriq> hmmm 19:51 because it's a rare thing for programs to ask, and most terminals are implemented by observing what programs do rather than by following a spec 19:51 <@fredriq> yeah at that point you can do little more than ask the player 19:51 <@fredriq> unfortunate 19:51 like, if you ask a terminal what truecolor color 100 corresponds to, and get an answer 19:51 it is *probable* that the terminal understands 256-color mode 19:52 but, there are lots of terminals that support 256-color mode but couldn't answer that question 19:52 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) killed Croesus, on T:34257 19:52 <@fredriq> hmm I wonder what putty does 19:52 lots of terminals even echo codes they don't understand, even though there are is a standard for parsing terminal control codes that lets you know where any given code ends 19:52 <@fredriq> iirc at least in the past it lacked 256color support 19:52 <@fredriq> but probably understood the codes 19:53 I honestly don't like more than 16 colors in the terminal. 16 colors is small enough that I can make my own palette of 16 colors that I like, just as I can make my own font. when you use the 60 or 256 color extension then I can't really do that, that's more close to absolute color where nethack determines the colors. that goes against what I want from an ascii terminal interface. 19:53 IPBT does that, which IIRC was based on PuTTY source 19:53 <@fredriq> as in, it lacked 256color rendering 19:54 oh wow, xterm has "palette push" and "palette pop" nowadays 19:54 (for reference it's -bg \#000000 -fg \#c0c0c0 --colorBD \#ffffff --color0 \#000000 --color1 \#aa0000 --color2 \#00aa00 --color3 \#aa5500 --color4 \#0000ff --color5 \#aa00aa --color6 \#00aaaa --color7 \#c0c0c0 --color8 \#555555 --color9 \#ff5555 --color10 \#55ff55 --color11 \#ffff55 --color12 \#5588ff --color13 \#ff55ff --color14 \#55ffff --color15 \#ffffff -cr \#c0f0a0 19:54 I wonder how many terminals implement those? there is an obvious application for them 19:54 ) 19:54 <@fredriq> b_jonas: either way it wouldn't be forced on players, but a config setting 19:54 <@fredriq> since I'd need to have a fallback in place 19:54 fredriq: yep, it's a setting 19:55 and if it's not then I will patch my terminal again, as I have once done to force programs to not use the terminal mouse support 19:55 <@fredriq> like how palette is a custom setting in nh4+friends 19:55 <@fredriq> and unlike nh4, fiqhack defaults to not touching the palette 19:55 <@fredriq> it's very rude 19:56 <@fredriq> especially since many terminals don't support restoring default pal 19:56 yeah 19:56 <@fredriq> so you are overriding user's pal and then leaving the dirtywork 19:56 <@fredriq> forcing them to restart the terminal or similar 19:57 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law), 477 points, T:359, killed by a ball of cold, while jumping around 19:57 by the way, once very long ago I also used a modified palette with orange instead of pink for a rubik's cube program 19:57 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) destroyed hothraxxa's ghost, the former Embalmer, on T:4759 (0:40:44) 19:58 not to play nethack or other applications, just for the rubik's cube applications 19:58 <@fredriq> reminds me of the pal I use for nh4+friends 19:58 <@fredriq> NH4 has a bunch of pal options, I personally run what it calls "alternate 3" 19:58 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) tasted meat for the first time, by eating a bugbear corpse, on T:3786 19:58 <@fredriq> which is... a strange pal 19:58 the one shown above is the one I used for nethacks. that one definitely needs purple. 19:59 I also made a detailed wishlist that changed the letters and colors of every monster, but that never got implemented. 19:59 <@fredriq> the most noticeable quirk of the palette is that it swaps the purples 19:59 I couldn't find an NH4 palette that worked well on my current screen 19:59 <@fredriq> so bright purple is darker than "dark" purple 19:59 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 2198 points, T:3488, killed by a blast of frost exhaled by a winter wolf cub 19:59 gamma issues strike again 19:59 lots of devs has a different monster letter reform proposal 19:59 NH4 doesn't change any monster letters apart from space → W 20:00 I am not opposed to changes, there just didn't seem to be a need 20:00 <@fredriq> b_jonas yeah, it's a major reason I haven't touched mlets 20:00 the *color* changes, on the other hand, are really helpful 20:00 <@fredriq> eveb if I think it could be improved 20:00 I have to farlook brown 'd's so often in vanilla 20:00 also, purple h and purple @ 20:00 ais523: sure, this was more a future-pointing optional thing, and it is admittedly hard to implement given that the nethack implementation relies on the letters and order in so many places in the code 20:01 <@fredriq> because it feels like half of the learning experience for some variants is "ok so what did this variant remap mlets to?" 20:01 I didn't really do much with colors, but if you change the letters then you have to change the colors too to avoid clashes 20:02 vanilla has clashes even without changing letters 20:02 sure 20:02 jackal versus werejackal is a huge one 20:02 <@fredriq> one big plan I have that I still kinda want to do, but hasn't gotten anywhere, is to overhaul all intelligent monsters under a combined monster role+race+special grid 20:02 those monsters are kind-of pretty different in impact! and often appear at the same time! 20:03 <@fredriq> so that there would be "races" like the playable ones plus giant, kobold, centaur etc 20:03 <@fredriq> then there would be "roles" like fighter, mage, etc 20:03 <@fredriq> and "special" which is LMVZ 20:04 L is clearly a wizard 20:04 <@fredriq> yeah, in hindsight I don't think making L a general purpose "extra trait" is necessary 20:04 <@fredriq> V mages should serve a similar purpose for the most part as "highlevel casters" 20:05 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 1814 points, T:4847, killed by a death ray 20:05 fredriq: that would be nice. I think there was some variant that started it. would the special mean {base material plane living, fiendish, celestial, zombie, skeleton, vampire, lich, half-elemental, intelligent construct} where some of the options mean a genetically unrelated species that look similar and have similar stats as the base creature? 20:05 !variant 20:05 nabru: dnethack 20:05 <@fredriq> while L should remain its own thing 20:06 <@fredriq> b_jonas: That was sort of the idea yes, but I limited it to just LMVZ 20:06 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 60 points, T:371, killed by a fox 20:06 I see 20:07 <@fredriq> the roles would be categorized as melee, ranged and casters of different grades, 4 for each iirc 20:07 <@fredriq> the letter would denote race while the color would denote role 20:07 fredriq: would soldiers be integrated into roles, or are those their own thing? 20:08 <@fredriq> special would override race letter-wise (this does mean ambiguity between different special races, I didn't figure out a better solution) 20:08 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 0 points, T:45, killed by a fox 20:09 <@fredriq> b_jonas: I don't remember, I think shopkeepers, priests and the Yendorian Army was also folded under the role system 20:09 I see 20:10 <@fredriq> note that this was fiqhack context, so underline meant effectively having 30 "color" options 20:11 nice, then you could sometimes spawn a special shop with an undead shopkeeper 20:11 [hdf-us] [spl] nabru (Bar Mer Fem Neu) had Cleaver bestowed upon her by Crom, on T:788 20:11 [hdf-eu] [hackm] UristMcRaven (Wiz Elf Fem Neu), 2281 points, T:2308, killed by a giant eel 20:11 I believe there's at least one variant with racial shopkeepers, which may hate you if you are of a race they oppose 20:11 hate as in mark up prices, not as in spawn hostile 20:11 mark up prices and insult you 20:11 evilhack 20:12 <@fredriq> many variants has this 20:12 sporkhack had it first afaik 20:12 grunthack also 20:12 <@fredriq> GruntHack had it first iirc 20:12 yeah one of those 2 20:12 <@fredriq> lol K2 beat me to it 20:12 the racial shopkeepers in evilhack were modelled off of the sporkhack implementation 20:12 heh 20:13 <@fredriq> grunt does it best imo 20:13 <@fredriq> grunt is what my above role+race system was inspired by 20:13 evilhack is significantly removed from either at this point 20:13 for racial shopkeepers 20:13 fixed several bugs 20:14 [hdf-us] [spl] nabru (Bar Mer Fem Neu) was sent an acid elemental by Crom, on T:1470 20:14 @sp?acid elemental 20:14 acid elemental (E) | Lvl: 8 | Diff: 12 | Spd: 6 | Res: fire cold poison acid | Confer: nothing | MR: 30 | Gen: special | AC: 2 | Atk: 3d6 claw acid, 0d4 passive acid | Align: 0 | swims, phases, amphibious, breathless, mindless, unsolid, thick hide, passes-bars, vegan 20:15 is that a hallu monster? 20:15 no 20:16 nope, it's a variant 20:17 splicehack 20:17 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 20:18 [hdf-eu] [hackm] UristMcRaven (Wiz Elf Fem Neu), 1090 points, T:1172, zombified by a gnome zombie 20:18 aww poor ozzy. neighbors shooting fireworks, he immediately puts himself under my desk 20:19 :( 20:19 he's not a fan of loud noises 20:19 [hdf-eu] [hackm] UristMcRaven (Wiz Elf Fem Neu), 34 points, T:82, killed by a serval 20:19 i did my 4th of july celebrations last night so im all clear to go to bed tonight 20:20 [hdf-eu] [hackm] UristMcRaven (Wiz Elf Fem Neu), 64 points, T:184, killed by a bear trap 20:21 https://ibb.co/NCJLs2N 20:21 ^ pic 20:21 [hdf-eu] [hackm] UristMcRaven (Wiz Elf Fem Neu), 143 points, T:106, killed by a fox 20:22 K2: splice game just crashed, mind recovering it? 20:22 (also, check if it left a core dump) 20:22 yes. yes i do 20:22 :P 20:22 :P 20:23 yeha there's a coredump 20:23 something to do with a bag of tricks? 20:23 the bag tricked the game into crashing 20:24 K2: yep 20:24 was using a bag of tricks 20:24 https://termbin.com/2l4oq 20:24 game is recovered 20:24 thanks! 20:25 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the invisible Gollum, on T:1258 (0:13:02) 20:26 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 1158 points, T:1369, killed by the Goblin King 20:27 heh i cant move, he's resting his muzzle on my foot 20:27 (ozzy) 20:28 july 4th is dangerous even in germany, a cat landed a crit on my arm 20:31 yup he's asleep 20:31 until the next firework goes off 20:35 [hdf-us] [spl] nabru (Bar Mer Fem Neu) had Chains of Malcanthet bestowed upon her by Crom, on T:1938 20:35 [hdf-eu] [hackm] UristMcRaven (Wiz Elf Fem Neu), 1772 points, T:1688, killed by a ball of cold 20:36 mexicans in LA koreatown were quite fond of illegal fireworks 20:38 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 2012 points, T:5020, killed by an orc zombie, while frozen by a floating eye's gaze 20:40 [hdf-us] [spl] nabru (Bar Mer Fem Neu), 6570 points, T:2387, killed by a bolt of lightning 20:42 [hdf-us] [nh370] masterofpi (Bar Orc Mal Cha) acquired the Sokoban amulet of reflection, on T:15729 20:42 [hdf-us] [nh370] Goran (Pri Hum Mal Neu) made his first wish - "blessed fixed +1 gray dragon scale mail", got "a blessed gray dragon scale mail", on T:476 20:44 !rng nethack lseep sleep 20:44 nabru: sleep 20:47 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 20:49 [hdf-us] [nh370] Superfly (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 435 points, T:1812, killed by a gnome king 20:51 [hdf-eu] [hackm] UristMcRaven (Wiz Elf Fem Neu), 1361 points, T:2282, killed by a giant bat 20:54 [hdf-us] [hackm] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law), 27856 points, T:12862, killed by a gray unicorn, while praying 20:55 !lastgame bouquet 20:55 nabru: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/b/bouquet/hackem/dumplog/1688512618.hackem.html :: [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/b/bouquet/nethack/dumplog/1576989832.nh.html 20:56 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Mal Law), 2945 points, T:3139, killed by a black unicorn 20:56 unicornacolypse! 20:57 as president of yendor I will eradicate the unicorn menace from our dungeons! 20:59 -!- crunchbubba has left #hardfought 20:59 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) tasted meat for the first time, by eating a pony corpse, on T:3179 21:08 [hdf-us] [evil] xialg (Val Hum Fem Law) killed Croesus, on T:47501 (11:36:44) 21:10 [hdf-us] [dyn] Bourne (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 18053 points, T:9356, killed by an owlbear 21:14 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) was bestowed with Magicbane by Thoth, on T:34128 21:14 about time 21:15 [hdf-us] [nh370] Goran (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 1710 points, T:2355, killed by a werewolf 21:19 -!- eggandhull has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:21 -!- eggandhull has joined #hardfought 21:24 <@cpittman> Not sure what's up with my cat tonight. Fireworks were loud enough to wake me up from a nap and I see him stand up in the cat tree, stretch, and start cleaning himself. This is the same cat that had a baby sqirrel come in through the chimney and accidentally chase him around the house. The squirrel was panicked and trying to find an exit and the cat thought it was chasing him 21:25 [hdf-eu] [ndnh] Noisytoot (Bar Eth Mal Neu) was given their Quest, on T:13173 21:26 [hdf-eu] [nh370] DoktorL (Tou Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:7566 21:29 @cpittman: was the squirrel OK? 21:29 [hdf-us] [slshm] wsx9000 (Wiz Dop Fem Cha), 539 points, T:1399, killed by a maggot 21:29 (I assume the cat ended up OK, if a little scared) 21:30 it's like the opposite of a ring of conflict, make all monsters flee from each other 21:30 @d?Thoth Amon 21:30 Thoth Amon (@) | Lvl: 16 | Diff: 22 | Spd: 12 | Res: poison petrification | Confer: nothing | MR: 10 | Gen: unique | AC: Nat 0/Dodge 0/Prot 10 | Atk: 1d6 weapon physical, 0d0 cast spell, 0d0 cast spell, 1d4 claw steals-quest-artifact | Align: -14 | omnivore, nopoly, stalker, covetous, infravis 21:30 tooled horn 21:33 <@cpittman> The squirrel did eventually make it out, but it did knock itself out for a minute when it ran full-speed at a closed window... There's a small hole in the back of my fireplace I can't get to but is the perfect size for animals to hide. The squirrel found it and hid there for a while. Problem is my cat is also very fond of that hiding place... He went to hang out there, found the squirrel and they both started running around the house trying to get 21:33 away from each other. 21:34 some wild animals avoid this problem by looking at the other animal's behaviour: if it's chasing they run, if it runs from them they chase it 21:35 I'm not sure what happens when two such animals of different species encounter each other 21:35 <@cpittman> My cat came and hid under the bed for the rest of the day but the squirrel eventually found the window I left open for it 21:35 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Ran Hum Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:39744 21:35 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) killed the Goblin King, on T:2352 (0:17:56) 21:38 this conversation makes me realise why the "cat video" genre of videos is so popular 21:40 [hdf-eu] [ndnh] Noisytoot (Bar Eth Mal Neu) killed Thoth Amon, on T:14307 21:41 -!- Menchers has joined #hardfought 21:42 <@cpittman> Anyways, it sucks I have a fireplace I can't use because there's no way to tell if there's an animal hiding in it (the gap is between the exterior wall of the fireplace and the back of the section you put wood in), but fireplace weather is not super common here. In the winter I can usually just HVAC off 21:44 that's quite a contrast in climates, I live in a country where few houses have air conditioning 21:44 and most of them need heating in the winter (but fireplaces are generally not used because they aren't very efficient) 21:50 [hdf-us] [hackm] Umbire (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) murdered his faithful freezing sphere, on T:6359 (1:32:45) 21:50 <@cpittman> The only houses I've seen without AC were made before 1930. 21:51 <@cpittman> I'm genuinely surprised how long my neighbors have kept the fireworks up. Almost non-stop for the last 3hrs. 21:52 <@cpittman> Plus an hour or two yesterday and a couple previews over the weekend 21:53 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Hum Fem Law), 506 points, T:1693, killed by the Goblin King 21:53 <@cpittman> But I think they're getting into the finale because it's lighting up the interior of the house 😄 22:12 [hdf-us] [dnh] Som (Dhl-Hea Dro Fem Neu) killed Cerberus, on T:14749 22:15 [hdf-us] [dnh] Som (Dhl-Hea Dro Fem Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:15092 22:15 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 22:16 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 22:19 -!- qt has quit [Server closed connection] 22:22 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 22:29 -!- Sgeo has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30 -!- Sgeo has joined #hardfought 22:47 [hdf-eu] [ndnh] Noisytoot (Bar Eth Mal Neu) read the necronomicon for the first time, on T:16005 22:55 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Sokoban bag of holding, on T:35824 22:55 geez that took a lot, at least the last part 22:56 at least the bag came with a potion of booze inside 22:58 * anselmus has occasionally heard a neighbor discharging a firearm 22:59 I heard about neighbours complaining about their neighbours discharging firearms 22:59 until they became targets themselves 23:00 glad to have a holdy bag now 23:00 eep 23:00 this game has been eating turns 23:00 RNG dared to start me with an INT:14 wizard. Ugly too CHA:7 23:01 once a while in fun tho, not like a backyard shooting range 23:01 just tell the cops 23:02 speaking of shooting ranges, this soko got so hard because of an elvenking with a wand of fire 23:02 since i was invited to same party, i don't think that would've been polite 23:02 and a big long corridor for him to zap it at me 23:02 so I had to bail out with /o digging 23:02 but that left a big hole with no way to fill 23:03 so after I finally got the elvenking (he got one of my pet cats, bastard) 23:03 I had to try to "escape" the hole... I think it worked on try #20 23:04 anselmus, if you need to call the cops, call the cops, regardless of whether you're invited 23:05 they won't be offended 23:07 a neighbor did get arrested and his guns confiscated, but i think he was threatening someone 23:07 rings of gain strength unironically goated for illithid 23:08 but this being california, no one gets punished 23:08 probably doesn't have as much late game purchase but still neat to not be immediately stressed for a change 23:08 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) had Snickersnee bestowed upon her by Amaterasu Omikami, on T:5354 (0:52:05) 23:10 true perhaps, but at least then the cops know what is going on, and can be better prepared when they need to be 23:10 est history etc 23:11 <@cpittman> There were a handful of gunshots mixed in the the fireworks. I think the neighbors' neighbors were holding off on their finale, because it sounded like the explosions got further and further away every few minutes. It's just calmed down in the last 15 minutes 23:12 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) destroyed the invisible tinklebear's ghost, the former Esquire, on T:5730 (0:55:38) 23:12 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) destroyed the invisible tinklebear's ghost, the former Esquire, on T:5826 (0:56:04) 23:14 <@cpittman> I'm good with the neighbor shooting in his backyard every once in a while, as long as it's before 10 PM. 23:17 [hdf-us] [xnh] arrow (Ran Hum Fem Neu), 2584 points, T:3717, quit 23:17 <@cpittman> Also fine with all the strangers visiting to buy drugs. It's incentive to keep all the real crime away. Like, I've never had a package stolen off the front porch. : D 23:17 -!- shadowrider38 has joined #hardfought 23:19 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 23:19 * anselmus somehow guessed alcohol/drugs were involved 23:21 well, you said it was California 23:22 <@cpittman> No, we're two separate people with neighbors that like to shoot guns in the backyard. On opposite sides of the country 23:22 got this pet water troll, he's great n all but too darn fast. Faster than me 23:23 now NH370 has nerfed wands of speed monster, my wiz is still annoyingly at normal speed 23:23 our neighborhood is safe but some kid in a delivery truck just ran over a bunch of toddlers crossing a (well-marked) crosswalk in broad daylight 23:23 and I just can't get a door closed and locked fast enough to keep water troll out 23:24 that's the only death around here i'm aware of 23:26 kid probably on drugs 23:26 You want a potion of speed 23:26 I'm not anti-drugs, but not fond of people driving on them 23:27 Speaking of speed I just learned haste self and with tech I can spam it basically forever I imagine 23:27 time to do the scooby-doo 23:27 Umbire, yes I do that all the time with my wizards 23:27 once I get the spell 23:27 yeah i'm in favor of mandatory ignition interlock 23:28 then toss the speed boots into a dark corner closet 23:28 as if you could trust drunks to control themselves 23:28 and meth, coke 23:29 pot is pretty-much OK except for noobies on skunk 23:29 if you drink alcohol the device should be mandatory 23:29 and lying about it should send you to prison 23:30 -!- Bleeko has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:30 well, that's a lot of shoulds 23:31 <@cpittman> I'm very anti-impaired driving, but more anti-ignition interlock. If they worked perfectly, it'd be fine. But it'd be an extra expense for everyone, and they have to be regularly calibrated, and can still be tricked. 23:32 <@cpittman> Imagine you're late for work and you swish some mouthwash as you run out the door. It won't start. Or the alcoholic parent that gets their kid to blow into the tube. 23:32 driverless cars 23:33 <@cpittman> I think proper driverless cars would require a ton of extra sensors along the roads, and we don't pay for proper infrastructure upkeep now. 23:33 you've seen the people in the news with 10 dui's and suspended licenses and registrations, nothing else is gonna actually stop them from drunk driving 23:34 and punishing them after the fact is a tad too late 23:35 Origin reduces spellcosts too 23:36 <@cpittman> Yeah. My dad had his license suspended once for DUI, but he still drove to work. Or at least to his employee's house, who drove the rest of the way. There's not a good way to stop it from happening, besides removing access to either drugs or cars 23:38 [hdf-us] [hackm] shadowrider38 (Yeo Cen Mal Neu), 919 points, T:1421, killed by a dung worm, while frozen by a monster's gaze 23:38 the only thing a drunk understands is having his drink taken away, and that means prison 23:38 <@cpittman> Man, that's a shit way to die, shadow. rimshot 23:39 then they can l;earn how to be a *real* criminal 23:39 <@cpittman> And alcohol is surprisingly easy to make. 23:40 my godson has been in more than out for his entire post-pubescent life 23:40 he prefers it in prison, structure, acommodation, regular meals, ... 23:41 <@cpittman> He might actually do well in the military, but I'm not sure if they'd take him at this point. 23:41 not a chance 23:42 last time I saw him he was driving around in a car with a bullet hole in the windscreen 23:43 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) destroyed tinklebear's ghost, the former Gallant, on T:6233 (0:57:45) 23:44 california even got rid of three strikes, so felonies are meaningless now 23:44 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) destroyed tinklebear's ghost, the former Esquire, on T:6349 (0:58:37) 23:46 <@cpittman> When did that happen? That dates A LOT of movies/tv shows, then. 23:46 hm, giant mantis is poisonous 23:47 <@cpittman> I just realized the fireworks finally stopped 23:47 <@cpittman> Just before midnight 23:47 <@cpittman> ...nevermind. Just heard a couple mortars. 23:49 to the trenches then 23:50 -!- Dingotron2 has joined #hardfought 23:52 fairly recently so the courts are jammed now with idiots trying to get their murder convictions reopened lol 23:53 for some reason they all fail 23:53 <@cpittman> Ok, fireworks are definitely over, because they're resorting to firecrackers now 😄 23:55 <@cpittman> I'm playing a knight (almost no experience with them) and pulled out an apple to feed one of the horses I found. Immediately ran into another horse, but I think the tame one sensed what was going on and straight-up murdered the wild one. 23:56 [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Sam Gia Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a wererat, on T:8222 (1:09:59) 23:56 [hdf-au] [nh370] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) was bestowed with Frost Brand by Thoth, on T:36512 23:56 think some guy got his hand blown off by an illegal firework 23:57 that happens every year 23:57 good ol Frost Boy, good to see you 23:57 [hdf-us] [hackm] willisllama (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 980 points, T:1845, killed by a boulder 23:57 think that was in Northern Territory, Australia 23:58 could be mistaken, was just browsing news 23:58 <@cpittman> We should actually change July 4 to Left-Handeness Day. 23:58 <@cpittman> More left-handers are created today than any other day of the year 23:58 as a tech and mech guy, i learn to use tools with either hand 23:59 but not like ambidextrous or anything, still a righty