00:30 [hdf-us] [nh370] a1 (Sam Hum Fem Law) attained the rank of Kokushu (level 18), on T:33588 00:35 [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Goblin King, on T:1199, rt[1:27:44] 00:38 [hdf-us] [nh370] quervo1 (Arc Hum Mal Law), 1185 points, T:1286, killed by an orc zombie 00:43 [hdf-us] [nh370] secra (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 3575 points, T:4159, killed by a gold golem 00:43 [hdf-us] [nh370] a1 (Sam Hum Fem Law) made her first wish - "3 blessed scrolls of charging", got "a scroll labeled FNORD", on T:33655 00:45 [hdf-us] [nh370] a1 (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 silver dragon scale mail", got "a greased silver dragon scale mail", on T:33655 00:48 [hdf-us] [nh370] a1 (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed amulet of life saving", got "an amulet of life saving", on T:33681 00:49 [hdf-us] [nh370] a1 (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 gauntlets of power", got "a greased pair of fencing gloves", on T:33686 00:52 [hdf-us] [nh370] a1 (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "uncursed magic marker", got "a magic marker", on T:33694 00:53 [hdf-eu] [nh370] HarmathZsolt (Val Hum Mal Neu) found the Orb of Fate on the floor, on T:42985 01:01 [hdf-us] [nh4] secra (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 30732 points, T:2602, killed by a wererat 01:07 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Hea Gno Fem Neu) reached Mine Town, on T:1425 01:11 [hdf-eu] [nh370] HarmathZsolt (Val Hum Mal Neu) killed Lord Surtur, on T:43138 01:12 [hdf-eu] [nh370] HarmathZsolt (Val Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:43141 01:16 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) received Excalibur from a strange woman laying about in a pond, on T:3099, rt[0:17:25] 01:19 -!- chao has joined #hardfought 01:21 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:23 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed the invisible Gollum, on T:3531, rt[0:24:10] 01:25 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law), 1335 points, T:3558, killed by a giant bat 01:26 [hdf-us] [evil] telegarn (Wiz Trt Mal Neu) became literate by reading a book, on T:3753, rt[1:16:26] 01:29 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Hea Gno Fem Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a werejackal, on T:3388 01:39 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Hea Gno Fem Neu), 374 points, T:5320, killed by a grid bug, while fainted from lack of food 01:40 <@Earth Traveler> i hate lycanthropy 01:42 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law), 415 points, T:2276, killed by a hobbit pickpocket 01:55 aosdict: Alright, so I wanna re-key this thiefstone to the Quest home. I cancel it, and then dip into restore ability on the desired level, right? 01:55 such a cool item 01:55 good luck doing that 01:55 idk how they work but it is conceptually so cool 01:55 -!- rld has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56 -!- rld has joined #hardfought 01:56 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v rld] by ChanServ 01:56 I've done this before, it's just been forever since I had a thiefstone so I forget the particular 01:56 s/particular/particulars 01:56 ah yeah, I've never used one but I ought to and do a run of modern xnh 01:57 Thiefstones have been around a while 01:57 I remember it being as I described in the question above but I wanna be sure 01:57 they are as old as the variant iirc 01:57 i love that kind of thing 02:01 I love player defined networks through the dungeon 02:01 idk why 02:03 -!- rld has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03 -!- rld has joined #hardfought 02:03 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v rld] by ChanServ 02:04 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) received Excalibur from a strange woman laying about in a pond, on T:3265, rt[0:21:34] 02:04 -!- cathartes has quit [Quit: fly away] 02:07 chargeable rings stop fucking exploding at +1 challenge [Difficulty: IMPOSSIBLE] 02:07 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) became literate by reading the fortune inside a cookie, on T:3889, rt[0:24:43] 02:14 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:4707, rt[0:31:43] 02:16 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha), 1553 points, T:1992, killed by a fire ant 02:25 -!- chao has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:27 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) changed form for the first time by mimicking a pile of gold, on T:6166, rt[0:43:49] 02:30 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha), 2025 points, T:1531, killed by a giant spider, while praying 02:30 <@Earth Traveler> ugh 02:32 <@Earth Traveler> i guess at least that time i didn't step onto a trapdoor i KNEW was there 02:36 Oh, locate is bones eligible 02:36 <@Earth Traveler> bones eligible quest levels sound gross 02:37 NONONONONONONO 02:37 MY PET DEMONS FROM BEFORE JUST DROPPED YEENOGHU ON ME 02:38 and I tried to level tele out and got dropped to the quest goal instead 02:39 Oh this is the most dogwater development possible 02:41 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) chose an elven broadsword to be named "Orcrist", on T:7663, rt[0:58:20] 02:41 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) chose an elven dagger to be named "Sting", on T:7663, rt[0:58:36] 02:44 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha), 1573 points, T:2282, killed by a wand 02:45 <@Earth Traveler> ugh no luck at all today 02:59 -!- a-1 has quit [Quit: Client closed] 02:59 -!- a14 has quit [Quit: Client closed] 03:04 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 03:11 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed the Goblin King, on T:8700, rt[1:10:12] 03:14 [hdf-us] [evil] lgxia (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed Gollum, on T:8950, rt[1:13:25] 03:26 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 03:32 -!- anselmus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33 -!- fakepass has joined #hardfought 03:33 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Arc Dwa Fem Law) killed Schliemann, on T:29779 03:34 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Arc Dwa Fem Law) found Itlachiayaque carried by a monster, on T:29779 03:35 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Arc Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:29784 03:38 [hdf-us] [nh4] muck (Bar Hum Fem Neu), 44096 points, T:6629, killed by an owlbear, while fainted from lack of food 03:56 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Arc Dwa Fem Law) made her first wish - "blessed gray dragon scales", on T:30311 04:00 -!- Semilg has joined #hardfought 04:11 [hdf-eu] [evil] elenmirie (Sam Dwa Fem Law) had Demonbane bestowed upon her by Amaterasu Omikami, on T:69986, rt[19:54:24] 04:17 [hdf-eu] [evil] elenmirie (Sam Dwa Fem Law) had a steel dwarvish spear entrusted to her by Amaterasu Omikami, on T:70594, rt[19:59:45] 04:26 [hdf-eu] [nh370] maneatingcow (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 23166 points, T:15325, killed by a soldier ant 04:26 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Arc Dwa Fem Law), 160950 points, T:30688, killed by a human mummy, while paralyzed by Yeenoghu 04:26 dogwater 04:27 simply doomed the moment he entered play 04:31 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Con Hum Mal Cha), 1191 points, T:1547, killed by a little dog 04:34 Umbire sounds like demons are a dangerous pet to keep 04:34 They were from bones. 04:39 oh that makes sense 04:47 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Cav Dwa Mal Law) reached Mine Town, on T:1323 04:54 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Con Hum Mal Cha), 10518 points, T:2210, killed by an owlbear zombie 04:57 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Con Hum Mal Cha), 148 points, T:205, killed by a newt 05:10 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:13 [hdf-au] [un] Orcranger (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed Durin's Bane, on T:33919 05:17 -!- chao has joined #hardfought 05:24 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:2333 05:26 -!- mobileuser has joined #hardfought 05:27 <@Earth Traveler> this minetown sucks, there's only Izchak's and a food shop 😦 05:28 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Cav Dwa Mal Law) became literate by reading the fortune inside a cookie, on T:3092 05:28 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Cav Dwa Mal Law) consulted the Oracle, on T:3118 05:29 <@Earth Traveler> aaaand the level below minetown is the bones of a guy who died on the stairs surrounded by monsters so let's see what's going on at soko 05:30 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Cav Dwa Mal Law) eschewed atheism, by dropping a silver concave amulet on an altar, on T:3369 05:35 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Con Hum Mal Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:4046 05:40 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Cav Dwa Mal Law) entered Sokoban, on T:4228 05:41 -!- chao is now known as stenno 05:48 [hdf-eu] [evil] elenmirie (Sam Dwa Fem Law) polymorphed her first object, on T:71135, rt[21:31:02] 05:53 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:4975 05:55 [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Inf Dem Mal Una) performed his first genocide (alhoons), on T:45537, rt[1 day, 17:32:51] 05:56 [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Inf Dem Mal Una) genocided two random monsters from class L, on T:45541, rt[1 day, 17:33:55] 05:56 [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Inf Dem Mal Una) genocided two random monsters from class L, on T:45542, rt[1 day, 17:34:00] 06:01 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Con Hum Fem Cha) was given Luck Blade, on T:6476 06:08 [hdf-eu] [xnh] UmberConductor (Cav Dwa Mal Law), 3037 points, T:6589, killed by a giant mimic 06:09 oh what i can't wish for dragon scales in xnh? 06:09 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Con Hum Fem Cha), 56267 points, T:7316, killed by a gnome 06:16 what should i wish for in xnh then? if it were vanilla i would go for GDSM 06:17 do you mean scales or scale mail? 06:18 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/XNetHack search for "dtsund-DSM" 06:19 mobileuser yeah i can't wish for DSM in xnh 06:19 mobileuser so i'm debating what i would otherwise wish for now, getting MR would be nice, as would the huge boost from GSDM but that's not quite possible now ... 06:19 <@Earth Traveler> did you follow that link? 06:20 Earth I did 06:20 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Con Hum Mal Cha), 189 points, T:222, killed by a jackal 06:20 <@Earth Traveler> so you could still wish for gray dragon scales 06:20 so i would have to wish for grey scales separately, then craft it 06:21 but until i get an enchant armor scroll, i'd have to use it as a cloak, which currently i'm using my cloak slot for a cloak of invisibility 06:21 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Con Hum Mal Cha), 76 points, T:155, killed by a grid bug 06:21 <@Earth Traveler> i would swap a cloak of MR for a cloak of invisibility in a heartbeat but it's up to you 06:22 it's also ambiguous how fused scales affect the >=+3 enchantment vanishing limit 06:23 like if i have a +0 armor, does fusing scales make it +3, which means i can then only safely read one enchant armor on it 06:23 or does the armor stay as +0 and the 3 AC is added to the "base AC" of the armor 06:24 <@Earth Traveler> well it says it "gains" +3 AC not that it gets enchanted to it so i would assume the latter 06:25 so then i guess the question is what's the best armor to fuse it with? 06:25 right now i have +2 leather studded armor 06:25 <@Earth Traveler> guess so 06:26 -!- mobileuser has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:26 -!- mobileuser has joined #hardfought 06:30 so the best would be a mithril coat, but xnh has changed that too... and it's also unclear if mithril elven ring mail has 5AC or 2AC 06:30 <@Earth Traveler> what class are you? 06:32 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha), 9817 points, T:7319, killed by a troll 06:32 <@Earth Traveler> man 06:32 <@Earth Traveler> tough spot 06:32 <@Earth Traveler> too much health to pray but not enough to survive 06:33 Earth gnomish healer 06:33 trolls are nasty 06:33 <@Earth Traveler> go with something nonmetallic i guess then 06:34 Earth like the studded leather armor i already have on? 06:35 alternatively i have some wooden elven ring mail (i think 2AC) 06:36 <@Earth Traveler> well i guess i'd try to get something better before going with that 06:37 Earth what would you recommend? 06:38 <@Earth Traveler> if it's still like it is in vanilla then i guess crystal plate mail 06:39 <@Earth Traveler> but i saw xnh made glass less durable so idk 06:40 Earth crystal plate mail is heavy 06:43 one idea is to check the gear of ascended games 06:44 https://nethackscoreboard.org/ascended.xnh.html 06:45 I notice I just used mithril dwarvish ring mail 06:46 but then spellcasting in xnethack is much more liberal (no failure, but you use more power) 06:46 my wizard used leather studded armor I see 06:48 mobileuser good advice, i'm seeing a lot of splint, plate and banded mail 06:48 well i can't wish for mithril drawvish ring mail, since i can't wish for materials, so i'd have to find it 06:53 ah ok, i've found some plate mail 06:53 bone plate mail? 06:54 mobileuser no, normal plate mail, so 450 weight 06:55 heavy :-( 06:55 yeah, looking at all of the ascension logs, people have generally found better materials 06:58 wow, gold banded mail, that's heavy 07:04 [hdf-eu] [hackm] stenno (Mon Cen Fem Neu), 10723 points, T:2814, killed by a chameleon imitating a banshee, while praying 07:09 [hdf-us] [dnh] Disruptor (Brd Swn Fem Cha) killed Aglaope, on T:52420 07:09 -!- mobileuser has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:13 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:18 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:20 [hdf-eu] [hackm] stenno (Mon Cen Fem Neu) destroyed zor the giant zombie, and former Adept, on T:987, rt[0:07:10] 07:20 [hdf-eu] [hackm] stenno (Mon Cen Fem Neu) destroyed zor the elf zombie, and former Assistant, on T:988, rt[0:07:11] 07:20 at some point i have to disable bones 07:21 [hdf-us] [dnh] Disruptor (Brd Swn Fem Cha) wished for "blessed magic marker", on T:52654 07:22 my goodness, withering is crazy 07:33 -!- mobileuser has joined #hardfought 07:35 <@malor> Stenno don’t you get extra treasure from the former players? Or does it not give you that in hackem? 07:36 Moult have some junk silver items ready, rubbing them cures withering (but corrodes the silver) 07:37 @malor i get the normal inventory 07:37 <@Earth Traveler> invoking your quest artifact also cures it 😄 07:37 @malor but i think its really unbalanced 07:37 <@Earth Traveler> i think bones are at least partially balanced by the need to kill whatever killed your predecessor 07:44 depends 07:45 free comr early game wizards :) 07:45 sometimes you are really lucky and get an ascension kit for free, sometimes you just get mauled by a former pet that is 20 levels out of depth 07:45 imbalanced 07:45 <@Earth Traveler> yfw you run into the DL12 mines bones my healer left with a black dragon and jabberwock on it 07:46 entropy != balance 07:51 mobileuser yeah i happened to have 2 silver items, both now gone. the mummy still isn't dead either. really nasty. 07:55 [hdf-us] [evil] nabru (Mon Cen Fem Neu) murdered Madonna, her faithful kitten, on T:65, rt[0:02:49] 07:58 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 547 points, T:733, poisoned by an orcish arrow 08:03 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) averted death (killed by a crossbow bolt), on T:439 08:05 [hdf-au] [xnh] Moult (Hea Gno Mal Neu) made his first wish - "blessed +2 gray dragon scales", on T:33489 08:10 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 1300 points, T:1082, killed by a pony 08:20 <@Earth Traveler> honestly reading about withering i'm surprised aosdict didn't crib it from sl*x 08:20 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 08:22 i don't think its that bad 08:24 <@Earth Traveler> okay yeah it's not that bad 08:24 oh lol i foudn a vanilla bug 08:25 not sure how i should report it 08:25 <@Earth Traveler> but the part where you have to destroy items that are probably rare and potentially valuable to get rid of it just seems like a "f**k you" 08:25 its a 3.7.0 bug 08:25 <@Earth Traveler> what's the bug 08:25 MG_BW_ICE and MG_BW_SINK have the same value (0x00200) 08:26 <@Earth Traveler> ...so what does that do? 08:26 <@Earth Traveler> make ice and sinks look identical on some interfaces? 08:26 yes 08:27 actually thats probably not a bug then 08:27 hmm or is it, not sure lol 08:28 #define MG_BW_ICE 0x00200 /* similar for ice vs floor */ 08:28 #define MG_BW_SINK 0x00200 /* identical for sink vs fountain [note: someday 08:28 * this may become a distinct flag */ 08:28 [hdf-us] [dnh] Disruptor (Brd Swn Fem Cha) killed Lungorthin, on T:53757 08:29 <@Earth Traveler> uh yeah i think that's a bu 08:29 <@Earth Traveler> *bug 08:29 the 'identical' thing confuses me 08:29 <@Earth Traveler> it says "identical for sink vs fountain" 08:29 'this may become a distinctflag' 08:29 <@Earth Traveler> which seems clear that sink and fountains are supposed to share a tile 08:30 no 08:30 <@Earth Traveler> is the one after that 0x00201 or 0x00202 08:31 those are background hilight flags when in TTY more 08:31 iirc, when nocolor, then ice and sink are hilighted with reverse 08:33 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:34 [hdf-us] [evil] nabru (Inf Orc Fem Una), 829 points, T:842, killed by a bugbear 08:35 but MG_BW_LAVA is distinct 0x00100 08:35 ask pat, not my code 08:35 i reported it already 08:35 just did that :P 08:36 really like that 0x00001 is the hero now 08:40 https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/commit/1f6c1d0f426ae57c1fd62e221ca8e3fde3269f8f 08:43 - The tile ordering in the win/share/*.txt tile files has been altered, 08:43 other.txt in particular. 08:43 oh no 08:43 nodehack is totally outdated now 08:44 <@Earth Traveler> man trap doors have really been trying to mess me up today 08:46 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha), 732 points, T:1237, killed by a rothe 08:47 [hdf-eu] [hackm] SeamusMcRed (Ice Ith Mal Cha), 2087 points, T:1956, killed by a goat 08:47 found it 08:47 I started to give sink its own mapglyph flag but then got lazy and 08:47 used the same value as ice. 08:48 so not a bug 08:48 damn i should i have read the commit message before reporting lol 08:52 Xnh definitely seems to Nerf the power spike with DSM and wishes. I'm finding the transition to mid game significantly harder. 08:52 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 1251 points, T:1985, killed by a killer bee, while praying 08:53 next up, fixing the spike of suddenly gaining a ton of holy water 08:55 [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Inf Dem Mal Una) killed the invisible Orcus, on T:46573, rt[1 day, 18:49:30] 08:59 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:1964 09:01 [hdf-us] [evil] karibou (Rog Elf Fem Neu) became literate by engraving "Lilje", on T:3764, rt[0:44:31] 09:02 "wahhh, you're nerfing all the FUNNNNN!!!11!" 09:04 [hdf-us] [evil] karibou (Rog Elf Fem Neu), 2153 points, T:3997, killed by a jaguar 09:05 it's not great how the dtsund dsm change has turned strategy from "just wish for dsm" to "just wish for silver/gray scales". indicates there's still a problem 09:06 <@Earth Traveler> yeah, players still want to use the most powerful options available to them 09:06 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 09:12 <@Umbyre (he/him)> You don 09:12 <@Umbyre (he/him)> You don't* destroy them, just corrode them, and legitimately with the whole objmats thing you can carry around any junk silver stuff you can find 09:12 [hdf-au] [nh370] wbn (Ran Elf Mal Cha), 806 points, T:2204, killed by a bolt of fire 09:13 <@Earth Traveler> hmm okay 09:13 <@Earth Traveler> guess i figured even with that silver would still be rare 09:13 <@Umbyre (he/him)> You also have enchant armor/weapon in the event you're forced to use one of those 09:13 <@Umbyre (he/him)> can also also just avoid melee with mummies, which isn't ultra hard to do 09:14 <@Umbyre (he/him)> far as dtsund I went gray scales only because I had a Yeenoghu problem which I was better off trying to play around entirely (hindsight and all) 09:15 aosdict: it indicates that Mr and ref are still critical and too rare to obtain otherwise? 09:15 <@Umbyre (he/him)> it does provide far more options for players who already have both through some means 09:16 <@Umbyre (he/him)> enough that getting there in the first place is a bit more dependent on build, it doesn't eliminate the reflex wish entirely though 09:17 <@Umbyre (he/him)> but it makes it conceivable that I have the Soko amulet say, and go "okay how about CoMR + orange scales for free action" 09:17 It seems weird I can't wish for something with a particular material 09:19 Umbire the silver does get destroyed after the corrosion 09:19 a number of changes are to encourage use of found objects, rather than kitting up with wished-for gear. if you could wish for optimal materials it would lead to asc kit sameness 09:19 <@Umbyre (he/him)> no 09:20 <@Umbyre (he/him)> not to my knowledge, I think it has to be a certain level of corrosion 09:20 <@Umbyre (he/him)> bit on the fence about it (in the 65/35 sense) but it ultimately does make finding stuff organically cooler 09:20 Yeah on the second rub my silver got destroyed 09:20 rubbing silver to cure withering adds 2 levels of erosion and destroys the item if this brings it past thoroughly corroded 09:21 (if you have enough withering for the rubs not to cure all of it without going that far) 09:21 [hdf-us] [evil] karibou (Rog Elf Fem Neu), 581 points, T:1813, killed by a goblin 09:21 Yeah but the problem then is you're not sure whether you're going to spend enchant armor or fusing, or just wait until you find something better 09:22 <@Umbyre (he/him)> there's a lot where you're able to just make do for the whole game honestly 09:22 <@Umbyre (he/him)> mithril chain, wooden banded/splint, etc. 09:22 <@Umbyre (he/him)> also with silver projectiles and stackables in particular my assumption is you can split one off from the stack to rub in case 09:22 hmm uncertainty about your strategic choices so there is no single overarching optimal strategy to follow? sounds like it is working properly 09:23 which variant is under discussion? Sorry, just srting my first coffee 09:23 xnethack 09:23 The weight affects whether the rub helps, so small stackablea also aren't useful 09:23 <@Umbyre (he/him)> I see 09:24 I wonder if vanilla also considers the "obvious optimal strategy" as a flaw 09:25 rubbing a single silver dart won't do much but it will do something 09:25 also part of getting truly good at nh imho is being able to gauge whether or not you have "enough" regardless of if it's optimal 09:25 rubbing 10 silver darts will do 10x as much since it's 10x the weight 09:25 And the material also seems to change the ac, so a wooden banded has less ac than another material 09:25 this is known, expected, and fine 09:26 wooden banded is a relatively light 5 AC, mithril dwarven ring mail is 5 AC at the same weight as leather light armor 09:26 the 'problem' with vanilla as such is more about how there's relatively little incentive in the game itself to not want to hyper optimize 09:26 and it's a habit you have to develop yourself 09:27 for lack of a better phrase 09:28 in vanilla, you just want to get gdsm or sdsm, period. regardless of your character details (except maybe monk, though even they can overcome its accuracy penalty). you typically spend a first wish on it if you don't already have it, and any other body armor you acquire is just temporary. I find this pretty boring 09:29 xnh you need to know enchant armor to do that, and you'll also want suitable armor to use it on 09:29 the materials thing ensures you have a wider variety available, enough that you'll even consider waiting for something suitable to come along 09:29 so it puts a severe dent in wish-fishing 09:29 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:2362 09:30 Yeah i get the argument, these are just first impressions of someone discovering variants 09:30 even if the ultimate result is still to prio MR/reflection, that's still very much up to circumstances (you might get it from bones, you might get lucky, so on), it's still more work compared to vanilla to even get in the position of making scaled armor 09:31 The big difference is that by this point in vanilla I'd be a walking DSM tank for the next 8 dlvls whereas now I'm still umming and ahhing 09:31 and even then various other changes means it's not as much an """insta-win""" or make your kit completely inflexible from that point 09:31 and as aosdict stated that's the intended impression 09:32 Yeah 09:33 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 4572 points, T:2452, killed by a rope golem 09:33 So is the xnh castle wand hardcoded to 2 wishes? And the other wands elsewhere (vlad, etc) 1 wish only? 09:36 if you want to further de-emphasize gray/silver scales you'd have to do something about what warrants their use cases primarily 09:37 reflection is generally "don't autolose to most wands", magic missile is "don't autolose to actual deathtouches and rays" 09:37 (off of me spitballing anyway) 09:37 <@Earth Traveler> don't forget polytraps 09:38 the other dragon armor in vanilla have two effects. i think that somewhat balanced them against the silver and gray 09:38 mhm 09:38 castle wand is 2 wishes, others have 1 09:38 I might take one from the castle wand during gehennom overhaul 09:39 that's the other thing, other scales remain relevant via secondary extrinsics even if you get the property they normally provide intrinsically 09:40 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 496 points, T:903, killed by a gnome, while fainted from lack of food 09:41 black DSM is drain res for builds that can't Excal/Stormbringer or else can't get enough damage from them, gold gives personal lighting + hallu protection 09:41 etc. etc. 09:42 former also works so you don't lose it to a bullwhip/slippery fingers/etc. 09:43 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:7044 09:46 [hdf-us] [hackm] zor (Und Dwa Fem Neu), 393 points, T:1196, killed by a telamon 09:49 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha) destroyed wbn's ghost, the former Lookout, on T:7729 09:51 [hdf-au] [slshm] eggra (Cav Hum Mal Law), 1233 points, T:1313, killed by a hill orc 09:52 @l?telamon 09:52 No such monster. 09:52 <@Earth Traveler> wiki said it's from splicehack 09:52 [hdf-us] [ndnh] zor (Sam Clk Mal Law), 157 points, T:643, killed by a djinni 09:52 <@Earth Traveler> didn't seem remarkable 09:52 @sp?telamon 09:52 telamon (g) | Lvl: 2 | Diff: 3 | Spd: 10 | Res: poison petrification | Confer: nothing | MR: 20 | Gen: gehennom dungeons | AC: 4 | Atk: 1d12 claw physical | Align: 3 | genocidable, breathless, thick hide 09:56 [hdf-au] [slshm] eggra (Cav Hum Mal Law), 626 points, T:813, killed by a rabbit, while helpless 09:56 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 1417 points, T:1678, killed by a dwarf 09:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 22 points, T:131, killed by a sewer rat 10:00 [hdf-us] [dnh] Disruptor (Brd Swn Fem Cha) killed the Grue, on T:57677 10:01 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed amulet of reflection", got "a spherical amulet", on T:11997 10:04 [hdf-us] [nh370] StatueSurfer (Bar Orc Fem Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:9088 10:06 [hdf-us] [ndnh] zor (Pri Sal Fem Cha) entered the adventure town for the first time, on T:1720 10:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 1024 points, T:967, killed by a gnome 10:13 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 282 points, T:743, killed by a small mimic 10:15 [hdf-us] [dnh] Disruptor (Brd Swn Fem Cha) wished for "blessed rustproof Helping Hand", on T:58867 10:15 [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Inf Dem Mal Una) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:47733, rt[1 day, 19:45:28] 10:15 [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Inf Dem Mal Una) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:47734, rt[1 day, 19:45:36] 10:19 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 269 points, T:493, killed by a gnome, while praying 10:21 [hdf-us] [ndnh] zor (Pri Sal Fem Cha), 28043 points, T:4059, killed by an ice vortex 10:21 -!- Umbire has quit [Quit: Umbire zaps a wand of digging!] 10:24 [hdf-us] [hackm] zor (Ran Orc Fem Cha), 358 points, T:588, killed by a mithril dwarvish spear 10:26 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law), 4880 points, T:7072, killed by a warg 10:28 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Vis (Con Hum Mal Cha), 173 points, T:322, killed by a jackal 10:30 <@hackemslashem> In variants with partial reflection I think wishing for silver dragon scales is much less of a priority; unfortunately the player's answer is Just Get Crowned. Still not sure what I think of that 10:32 <@Earth Traveler> i mean, in a game where a single death ends all your progress, players will naturally try to use the most consistent high-quality strategy available 10:33 happy new years everyone \o/ 10:34 <@Earth Traveler> happy new year 10:35 [hdf-us] [ndnh] zor (Pir Hum Mal Cha), 846 points, T:1087, killed by a water moccasin, while fainted from lack of food 10:35 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Kontroller (Bar Hum Mal Cha) wished for "blessed fixed greased +3 polished silver shield", got "a greased polished silver shield", on T:49295 10:36 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 1004 points, T:1466, killed by a dwarf 10:37 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Kontroller (Bar Hum Mal Cha) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of charging", got "2 scrolls of charging", on T:49300 10:41 [hdf-us] [ndnh] zor (Con Bat Fem Cha), 236 points, T:415, killed by a grid bug, while fainted from lack of food 10:45 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law), 250 points, T:850, killed by a small mimic 10:49 happy new year, K2 10:50 [hdf-us] [dnh] Disruptor (Brd Swn Fem Cha) killed Illurien of the Myriad Glimpses, on T:60399 10:52 o/ 10:52 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 1610 points, T:1566, killed by a gnome, while praying 10:53 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 4 points, T:49, killed by a sewer rat 10:53 -!- attie has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:55 -!- attie has joined #hardfought 10:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 253 points, T:787, killed by a bat 10:58 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Kontroller (Bar Hum Mal Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:49843 11:02 [hdf-us] [nh370] ioa (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 2235 points, T:3914, killed by a leather golem 11:11 [hdf-us] [nh370] desertgreg (Ran Orc Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:30093 11:16 -!- cathartes has joined #hardfought 11:20 [hdf-eu] [nh370] post163 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 27 points, T:110, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 11:20 <@Earth Traveler> ouch 11:21 [hdf-us] [evil] Frozty (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:34223, rt[2 days, 7:23:43] 11:21 [hdf-us] [evil] Frozty (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:34224, rt[2 days, 7:23:59] 11:21 [hdf-eu] [nh370] post163 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 5 points, T:37, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 11:33 [hdf-us] [evil] Frozty (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) performed the invocation, on T:34270, rt[2 days, 7:30:29] 11:43 [hdf-eu] [hackm] stenno (Mon Cen Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, acquiring a magic marker, on T:5395, rt[1:06:48] 11:50 [hdf-eu] [hackm] stenno (Mon Cen Fem Neu) destroyed stenno's ghost, the former Initiate, on T:5748, rt[1:14:14] 11:57 you have a grudge against that guy, don't you? 12:02 [hdf-eu] [hackm] stenno (Mon Cen Fem Neu) had Gauntlets of Defense bestowed upon her by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:8035, rt[1:25:46] 12:03 dnh doesn't have the "just wish for gdsm" balance problem 12:04 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed the Goblin King, on T:4571, rt[0:37:41] 12:05 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Kni Hum Mal Law) entered the Bigroom, on T:16253 12:07 [hdf-us] [nh370] a1 (Sam Hum Fem Law) found the Tsurugi of Muramasa carried by a monster, on T:35587 12:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] a1 (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed Ashikaga Takauji, on T:35615 12:10 [hdf-us] [slshm] markp (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 34629 points, T:14202, killed by a gargoyle 12:10 [hdf-us] [nh370] a1 (Sam Hum Fem Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:35616 12:15 [hdf-us] [nh370] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:4417 12:16 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a kobold mummy, on T:4872, rt[0:48:59] 12:20 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Kni Elf Fem Cha) stole 50 zorkmids worth of merchandise from Aklavik's delicatessen, on T:24226, rt[13:16:08] 12:21 [hdf-us] [slshm] markp (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 636 points, T:1518, killed by a small mimic 12:22 [hdf-us] [nh370] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha), 12751 points, T:5616, killed by a soldier ant 12:22 !lastgame dragonsidedd 12:22 nabru: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/D/DragonSidedD/nethack/dumplog/1672591415.nh.html 12:23 [hdf-us] [evil] nabru (Mon Gia Fem Neu) killed the Goblin King, on T:534, rt[0:04:36] 12:25 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) destroyed Kas, on T:116876, rt[1 day, 0:50:27] 12:30 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) murdered her faithful genetic engineer, on T:117186, rt[1 day, 0:56:06] 12:35 [hdf-us] [evil] Frozty (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) killed the human high priestess of Moloch, on T:34494, rt[2 days, 8:19:08] 12:35 [hdf-us] [evil] Frozty (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:34496, rt[2 days, 8:19:38] 12:37 [hdf-us] [slshm] markp (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 1241 points, T:1627, killed by a dwarf 12:38 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) destroyed Vecna, on T:117541, rt[1 day, 1:03:53] 12:40 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (two random monsters from class L), on T:117558, rt[1 day, 1:05:35] 12:40 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) genocided two random monsters from class L, on T:117558, rt[1 day, 1:05:38] 12:40 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) genocided alhoons, on T:117561, rt[1 day, 1:06:14] 12:41 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) genocided master mind flayers, on T:117562, rt[1 day, 1:06:21] 12:41 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) genocided mind flayers, on T:117563, rt[1 day, 1:06:26] 12:41 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) genocided two random monsters from class V, on T:117565, rt[1 day, 1:06:43] 12:41 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) genocided two random monsters from class V, on T:117566, rt[1 day, 1:06:50] 12:45 genocide all the things 12:46 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed magic marker", on T:117597, rt[1 day, 1:11:26] 12:49 -!- anselmus has joined #hardfought 12:52 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Bar Hum Fem Neu), 1565 points, T:1952, killed by a dwarf queen 12:54 [hdf-eu] [nh370] spontiff (Hea Gno Mal Neu), 263 points, T:1995, killed by a bolt of fire 12:58 [hdf-us] [evil] Nightsorrow (Sam Hum Mal Law), 6544 points, T:6700, killed by a Woodland-elf 12:58 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) killed Geryon, on T:117984, rt[1 day, 1:24:18] 12:58 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Gia Fem Neu) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Odin, on T:940, rt[0:05:46] 13:04 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) killed Mephistopheles, on T:118148, rt[1 day, 1:30:03] 13:05 [hdf-us] [evil] Frozty (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) killed Lucifer, on T:34595, rt[2 days, 8:48:22] 13:06 [hdf-us] [evil] Frozty (Wiz Gno Mal Neu) killed Lolth, on T:34598, rt[2 days, 8:49:07] 13:06 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Gia Fem Neu) had a pair of high boots entrusted to her by Odin, on T:1839, rt[0:13:19] 13:11 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) killed Orcus, on T:118540, rt[1 day, 1:36:27] 13:25 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Gia Fem Neu) killed the invisible Gollum, on T:4410, rt[0:32:32] 13:33 [hdf-us] [ndnh] zor (Arc Hlf Mal Neu), 188 points, T:314, killed by a newt 13:34 [hdf-us] [nh370] wispofvapor (Arc Hum Fem Neu), 252 points, T:622, killed by a gas spore's explosion 13:34 [hdf-us] [evil] dbanethacker (Val Gia Fem Neu) killed the Goblin King, on T:4924, rt[0:41:33] 13:35 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) killed Tiamat, on T:119459, rt[1 day, 2:00:57] 13:38 [hdf-us] [nh370] nmlkj (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 811 points, T:1340, choked on a food ration 13:41 [hdf-us] [nh370] wispofvapor (Arc Hum Fem Neu) found Cleaver in a shop, on T:1657 13:44 [hdf-us] [ndnh] zor (Pri Bat Fem Neu), 1336 points, T:1230, died of starvation 13:47 -!- a-1 has joined #hardfought 13:49 [hdf-us] [nh370] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:3938 13:50 [hdf-us] [nh370] DragonSidedD (Mon Hum Mal Cha) eschewed atheism, by dropping a cubical amulet on an altar, on T:3963 13:55 [hdf-us] [ndnh] zor (Nob Hum Fem Cha), 3623 points, T:1346, killed by a gnomish wizard 14:01 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:120617, rt[1 day, 2:27:09] 14:01 [hdf-us] [evil] elron (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:120617, rt[1 day, 2:27:10] 14:04