00:09 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) had a yellow spellbook given to him by Anhur, on T:38508 00:09 [hdf-au] [xnh] spectre (Val Dwa Fem Law) reached Minetown, on T:1408 00:11 <@ShivanHunter> lol I know 42 spells and STILL NO POLYMORPH 00:12 [hdf-au] [xnh] spectre (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1060 points, T:1742, killed by a giant spider, while fainted from lack of food 00:13 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 00:13 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya] by ChanServ 00:14 !who 00:14 Tangles: [hdf-us] bugsniper [evil] ShivanHunter [evil] demios1311 [nh370] Thidwick [un] charles [4k] | [hdf-eu] microlance [dnh] | [hdf-au] Tangles [spl] 00:19 !tell riker bigscript trap has existed in slex like, for eons... :P 00:19 LarienTelrunya: Message from amateurhour at 2020-08-06 17:28 EDT: first level of the mines appears to be some form of special level, yet I'm a sokosolver, is that normal? can show you tomorrow 00:19 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 00:20 !tell amateurhour random chance I guess? filler levels can randomly be replaced with random special levels, or it might also have been bones from someone else's run 00:20 No worries, LarienTelrunya, I've got this! 00:22 !tell riker why specialcase spells like that instead of just doing the easy way of adding a "really exit with no direction selected?" prompt for all directional spells/wands as I did :P 00:22 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 00:23 also lol why did andro mirth get nerfed (I don't even know what that is but omg why did it get nerfed???) 00:24 anyway, yet another early shift today so I'll have to leave now *sadface*, but tomorrow is one of those rare days on which I have no tour at all, yay! 00:24 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 00:25 <@riker> peace amy, gnight! 00:25 @riker: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2020-08-08 00:19 EDT: bigscript trap has existed in slex like, for eons... :P 00:25 @riker: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2020-08-08 00:22 EDT: why specialcase spells like that instead of just doing the easy way of adding a "really exit with no direction selected?" prompt for all directional spells/wands as I did :P 00:25 <@riker> or, good morning, or whatever 00:26 <@riker> amy: do you really condone 1d5+3 turns of stunlock(+ 3.4.3 sneak attack) on any monster, with no save possible? lol 00:27 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 1104 points, T:956, killed by a giant beetle 00:29 -!- Heliokopis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31 -!- Menchers has joined #hardfought 00:45 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:44785 00:54 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:45114 00:54 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:45116 00:59 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) woke the rulers of Gehennom by performing the invocation, on T:45178 00:59 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) performed the invocation, on T:45178 00:59 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:02 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed the high priest of Moloch, on T:45221 01:02 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) acquired The Amulet of Yendor, on T:45222 01:04 <@riker> !gt Tangles 01:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Sam Hum Mal Law) attained the rank of Ninja, on T:3508 01:13 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Baphomet, on T:45539 01:14 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Sam Hum Mal Law) reached Mine Town, on T:3971 01:14 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Sam Hum Mal Law) entered a temple, on T:4007 01:17 [hdf-us] [xnh] Starlock (Kni Hum Mal Law), 133 points, T:175, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 01:18 [hdf-us] [nh370] MHL (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:8164 01:21 [hdf-us] [nh370] MHL (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a werewolf, on T:9135 01:23 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Yeenoghu, on T:46072 01:26 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Pazuzu, on T:46157 01:28 -!- oh6 has joined #hardfought 01:32 [hdf-us] [nh370] MHL (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 17920 points, T:12203, killed by a leocrotta 01:33 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Mephisto, on T:46357 01:34 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Sam Hum Mal Law) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:5918 01:37 thx @riker :) 01:37 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Kostchtchie, on T:46442 01:39 [hdf-us] [xnh] Starlock (Arc Gno Fem Neu), 884 points, T:1267, killed by a killer bee 01:45 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Geryon, on T:46681 01:47 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:50 Hahah I thought I got out of fighting Orcus because OrcusTown was bones, and he was gone 01:50 -!- spicycat has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:50 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed the invisible Orcus, on T:46949 01:53 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed the invisible Demogorgon, on T:47072 01:57 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Zuggotomoy, on T:47227 01:59 K2, your zombies keep making me stupid 01:59 <@ShivanHunter> BRAAAAAAAAAINS 01:59 <@ShivanHunter> evilhack zombies are awesome tbh 02:10 yeah, just need a better way to deal with them 02:16 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) killed the Platinum Dragon, on T:18907 02:19 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) wished for "blessed spellbook of identify", on T:47567 02:21 -!- Mencherino has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:21 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:47591 02:22 R - a magic marker (0:12) Hopefully I can write charging with it. 02:23 The creeping coins misses the centipede. The giant zombie bites the lava gremlin. The giant zombie's brain is eaten! The Aleax looks rather ill. 02:24 hallucination makes it look as though there's retribution on the zombies 02:24 heh 02:27 The baby black dragon mumbles, "BRAAAAAAAAINS...". 02:33 [hdf-us] [evil] bugsniper (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 4190 points, T:3944, killed by a blue jelly 02:35 -!- spicycat has joined #hardfought 02:55 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 02:56 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 02:57 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:58 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:00 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) killed Oona, on T:19443 03:22 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Dispater, on T:47743 03:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Sam Hum Mal Law), 9768 points, T:7365, killed by a chameleon imitating a minotaur 03:26 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) entered the Planes, on T:47945 03:26 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) entered the Planes, on T:47945 03:27 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor (5 times), on T:47947 03:27 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Envy, on T:47949 03:29 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) wished for "2 blessed tins of red dragon meat", on T:47983 03:29 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) destroyed the Arsenal, on T:19833 03:35 -!- drunkmonkey has joined #hardfought 03:41 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Gluttony, on T:48080 03:51 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Lust, on T:48279 03:51 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) averted death, on T:21287 03:52 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) killed Cerberus, on T:21340 03:54 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:21546 03:56 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:48417 03:58 I remember reading somewhere that there are extensions/addons for nethack, thinks that keep track of your intrinsics ect. 03:59 does anyone know what I should be looking for? 04:06 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 04:24 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:23215 04:25 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Fem Law) reached Mine Town, on T:2878 04:28 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Fem Law) entered a temple, on T:3090 04:36 -!- j6p has joined #hardfought 04:53 [hdf-us] [nh370] Silverwater (Val Hum Fem Neu), 140 points, T:473, killed by a jackal 04:57 -!- drunkmonkey has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58 -!- drunkmonkey has joined #hardfought 04:59 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Fem Law) made her first wish - "blessed greased +2 silver dragon scale mail", on T:4364 05:04 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Fem Law) entered Sokoban, on T:4726 05:12 [hdf-us] [slshm] mac (Wiz Dop Fem Cha), 26289 points, T:11770, killed by a jaguar 05:25 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed Greed, on T:48616 05:25 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) entered the Astral Plane, on T:48648 05:26 Haha I just tripped into Astral because I thought there would be a second water plane (all the others had two) 05:26 That's a nasty surprise! 05:27 -!- tacco\unfoog has joined #hardfought 05:28 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha) killed the invisible Famine, on T:48653 05:33 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:37 just ate my first cockatrice egg, didn't know they existed. Lucky I could pray my way out of it. 05:37 [hdf-au] [spl] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha), 3629584 points, T:48683, ascended 05:37 https://au.hardfought.org/userdata/T/Tangles/splicehack/dumplog/1595690130.splice.html 05:44 Splicehack endgame is intense! 05:54 [hdf-us] [slshm] mac (Wiz Dop Fem Cha), 2016 points, T:1847, killed by a dwarf, while helpless 05:55 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:7331 06:00 -!- mobileuser has joined #hardfought 06:02 Congrats Tangles! 06:04 Splicehack Convict, nice! 06:10 Thanks :) 06:13 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:52389 06:14 congrats tangles 06:14 congrats 06:17 [hdf-eu] [dnh] vimla (Bar Orc Mal Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2240 06:18 thanks rebatela and drunkmonkey! 06:33 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:2700 06:38 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 dragonhide speed boots", on T:52784 06:39 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Fem Law) endured an absurd aquatic ceremony, and now wields Excalibur, on T:8071 06:40 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 dragonhide cloak of magic resistance", on T:52790 06:40 [hdf-eu] [dnh] vimla (Bar Orc Mal Cha), 30541 points, T:4409, killed by Ms. Pameunpeuk, the shopkeeper, while praying 06:40 UGH. The reflection globe around me disappeared and literally on the next turn I lost half my rings to something 06:41 second time in this game that's happened lol 06:43 ooo just got a magic harp while polypiling to replace them though ! 06:44 +5 ring of protection is going to be hard to replace. Annoyingly, I swallowed like 10 of them earlier trying to get the intrinsic AC 06:44 <@ShivanHunter> rip 06:45 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) averted death, on T:3654 06:45 [hdf-eu] [dnh] vimla (Tou Inc Fem Neu) was given Magicbane, on T:1220 06:46 and I got poison resistance from the killer bee corpse when I was done 06:47 [hdf-eu] [dnh] vimla (Tou Inc Fem Neu) was given the Holy Moonlight Sword, on T:1713 06:48 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:3860 06:48 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) entered a temple, on T:3860 06:48 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) eschewed atheism, by dropping a square amulet on an altar, on T:3864 06:49 nice oh6! 06:49 <@ShivanHunter> !rng wish for dragonhide T-shirt | keep trying to polypile it 06:49 @ShivanHunter: keep trying to polypile it 06:49 did you know it was life saving ? 06:49 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) entered a shop, on T:3946 06:50 shivanhunter: how does that work ? Does dragonhide gear turn into dragonhide gear? I'm not sure I've ever gotten anything dragonhide from polymorph come to think of it 06:51 <@ShivanHunter> I have, it's just the usual 1% chance when the new item is generated. The material is completely rerolled 06:51 <@ShivanHunter> at least, as far as I can tell. But that seems right and I've been polypiling like mad all game 06:52 <@ShivanHunter> would be cool though to have a chance for items to try and keep their materials, and a very low chance for items to keep their materials even if it's invalid for the new object ;) 06:52 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Fem Law) attained the rank of Woman-at-arms, on T:8896 06:53 <@ShivanHunter> oooooooh I forgot I can kill the Oracle for an extra wish 06:53 how do you do that?!?!? 06:54 <@ShivanHunter> evilhack: she drops the Magic 8-Ball artifact, which has a 1/10000 chance to grant a wish when (applied, I think) 06:54 [hdf-eu] [dnh] vimla (Tou Inc Fem Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2723 06:54 <@ShivanHunter> so just grab that, get a =oSD, fill up soko with acid blobs, and keep trying for thousands of turns via copy+paste 06:54 <@ShivanHunter> main downside is all the forgotten spells 06:55 right 06:55 yeah. I see people with this magic 8 ball. I knew it had something to do with oracle 06:56 just lost my ring of slow digestion from that reflection wearing off incident... I have hundreds of lembas wafers so I don't really need it at this point 06:56 <@ShivanHunter> rip 06:56 everyone's dead in my game except demogorgon and rodney 06:57 but i'm not ready to do the run yet and i keep making dumb mistakes 06:58 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) made his first wish - "blessed fixed greased +3 silver dragon scale mail", on T:4393 06:59 good grief, three magic lamps in this minetown 07:01 <@ShivanHunter> niiice 07:01 well, two now :) 07:01 [hdf-eu] [dnh] vimla (Tou Inc Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +2 small double lightsaber", on T:3150 07:04 <@ShivanHunter> Huh. Evilhack covetous monsters hang around by the upstairs and won't teleport to you all the way across the level anymore 07:04 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) killed Asmodeus, on T:53416 07:05 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 07:08 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:53611 07:09 <@ShivanHunter> I never expected to be this impressed with gauntlets of power as a wizard 07:11 they are awesome once you are buff enough that they don't interfere with casting 07:11 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Fem Law) performed her first genocide (mind flayers), on T:9979 07:11 i had them for a while earlier (they're even better for monk w/ martial arts) 07:12 <@ShivanHunter> indeed. I'm thinking of wishing for glass ones so I can even cast FoD with impunity 07:12 i think I'm going to use last wish for dragonhide gauntlets of protection though 07:12 My monk can cast FoD at 0 fail :) I don't think i've ever used it 07:13 <@ShivanHunter> I've found it to be great for things like Rodney 07:13 Does FoD work on pestilence and famine like a death wand ? 07:13 <@ShivanHunter> yep 07:13 <@ShivanHunter> it misses less often than a wand too... IIRC... idk how the math works on that one 07:13 somehow it's gone up to 7% fail. oh well 07:14 <@ShivanHunter> but it has something to do with your level in the to-hit calculation instead of a fixed wand level 07:14 oh that's huge then 07:14 i always lvl all the way up simply for the spellcasting 07:14 magic missile does more damage 07:14 <@ShivanHunter> same. I'm level 30 now 07:15 <@ShivanHunter> lots of gain level pots from Evilhack's player monster loot pinatas 07:15 nice 07:15 yeah i love encountering them 07:15 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) killed Baalzebub, on T:53727 07:16 <@ShivanHunter> GoP + +7 silver elven dagger = he didn't even get to teleport away before he was dead 07:16 -!- amateurhour has joined #hardfought 07:17 dammit. alchemy 3 BOOMS in a row 07:18 ouch 07:19 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) killed Axus, on T:25362 07:23 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Oracle, on T:57260 07:24 it's shivanhunter's fault! 07:24 <@ShivanHunter> hehe 07:24 <@bubbles> there shoul dbe a confimration if you want a boom or not 07:25 <@ShivanHunter> what's this dungeon branch in Gehennom that goes to this massive cavern with TONS of vampires 07:25 lol bubbles 07:25 what did I miss 07:25 amateurhour: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2020-08-08 00:20 EDT: random chance I guess? filler levels can randomly be replaced with random special levels, or it might also have been bones from someone else's run 07:25 ShivanHunter that's vlads 07:25 <@ShivanHunter> huh. 07:25 shivanhunter: don't fall! 07:25 <@ShivanHunter> well that's something 07:26 first floor is really dangerous, don't drop anything in that pit 07:26 <@ShivanHunter> illithid :D I can fly 07:26 oh ok :) 07:26 <@ShivanHunter> "You drop a gold piece. The gold piece falls away and disappears." hmmmmm 07:27 <@ShivanHunter> ...would my game be unwinnable if I dropped the Bell of Opening rn 07:27 the invocation artifacts are treated specially 07:27 they land on demogorgon's floor I think 07:28 <@ShivanHunter> ah 07:29 do you have drain resistance? 07:29 <@ShivanHunter> noooope 07:29 vlad might be really annoying 07:29 then again as a level 30 megawizard he might still be easy 07:30 he's got megafast speed and a really annoying artifact sword 07:30 <@ShivanHunter> aww this layer of vampires here is all regular vampires, not random ones 07:30 what, you'd rather it be a hoarde of vampire mages? 07:30 I have found every damn spellbook in this game I think (EXCEPT identify) 07:30 <@ShivanHunter> oh no there's a few lords here 07:31 <@ShivanHunter> I had to write ID lol. No regrets 07:31 and my god keeps giving me spells i already know 07:31 yeah, I'm not a wizard 07:31 I could try to write it.. 1/3 chance, but it's pointless now 07:31 You will meet vampire mages ShivanHunter 07:31 i'm just surprised I haven't seen it with all the polypiling i've done 07:32 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) wished for "blessed fixed +2 godhands", on T:25799 07:32 mobileuser: so this is true, that this bag of holding really isn't giving me MC 1??!? I'm debating whether to wish for protection gloves 07:33 or do I need to walk around wielding it ? 07:33 Or wait for K2 to push a fix? ;-) 07:34 I don't suppose you can afford to wear an amulet of guarding? 07:34 no, not really 07:34 I swallowed a few of them, to no avail 07:34 heh 07:35 I got a some increase damage rings to work though 07:35 But when I poly'd back from a gelatinous cube I lost like 100 max hp 07:36 wielding the superbag actually gives +1 MC 07:36 right... But what would happen if i go to hit and i'm wielding it? 07:37 i'm playing weaponless. I don't think it takes a turn to switch back to weaponless, but i'm not sure 07:37 <@bubbles> Should gaining extrinsic stoning resistance fix a slow-petrify? 07:37 <@bubbles> (I think it should) 07:38 try for SCIENCE ;-) No, you would need to unwield first. But wouldn't break weaponless. 07:51 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:474 07:55 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Cookiedough (Bin Orc Fem Non) killed Asmodeus, on T:73129 07:56 killed asmodeus, nice 07:58 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Cookiedough (Bin Orc Fem Non) killed Daemon, on T:73346 07:58 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) wished for "blessed fixed +5 quicksilver", on T:27092 08:06 FINALLY got identify from praying lol 08:06 and I just read it. I didn't have to id it because it's the only item in the goddamn dungeon not id'd 08:06 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Cookiedough (Bin Orc Fem Non) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:74843 08:09 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) was given the Grappler's Grasp, on T:5934 08:11 lol if you've id'd everything else what was the point in trying to get identify? :P 08:20 heh. exactly 08:20 but wand charges and suvh 08:20 such 08:20 and BUC 08:20 I REALLY want all the ID scrolls i had to use throughout the game back to polypile 08:21 same goes with magic mapping. I love blanking all those scrolls 08:22 <@bubbles> Always kill asmo (as binder) 08:22 <@bubbles> no point in not doing it 08:22 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Cookiedough (Bin Orc Fem Non) performed the invocation, on T:75050 08:24 -!- musicdemon has joined #hardfought 08:25 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) killed Illurien of the Myriad Glimpses, on T:28212 08:25 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) read the necronomicon for the first time, on T:28224 08:27 <@bubbles> why can I not find the door tot he sanctum? 08:27 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Cookiedough (Bin Orc Fem Non) killed the elder priest of Moloch, on T:75616 08:28 <@bubbles> ah fuck I got punished 08:32 that's not that bad 08:32 you'll probs have a bajillion remove curse scrolls by this point? 08:34 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:8402 08:36 YANI: generate a small fraction of Kops with bananas (for slipping on, obviously) 08:39 -!- tacco\unfoog has joined #hardfought 08:39 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Cookiedough (Bin Orc Fem Non) entered the Planes, on T:76912 08:42 bubbles where are you playing ? 08:43 [hdf-us] [dnh] Alasnuyo (Arc Hum Mal Neu) was given Xiuhcoatl, on T:6300 08:44 they're Cookiedough rebatela 08:44 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:45 Cookiedoug the Gnostikos :-) 08:46 hmm, if my name were Doug, Cookie Doug would be a pretty good screen name 08:50 sweet. that's the game i was watching anyway :) 08:52 <@bubbles> ahh ffs 08:52 <@bubbles> rebalata eu 08:52 <@bubbles> also 08:52 <@bubbles> fucking archon storm 08:52 <@bubbles> it all went wrong because I accidentally unbound andro 08:52 <@bubbles> A spirit who gives me protection from theives 08:52 <@bubbles> and also sneak attacks 08:53 <@bubbles> but I used an item to try and reduce my sanity 08:53 <@bubbles> but it was stolen, which breaks andro's taboo 08:53 <@bubbles> Even though andro is supposed to auto-id stolen items 08:53 <@bubbles> then I got robbed 08:53 <@bubbles> now I just lost my flying 08:53 <@bubbles> so I think I am totally fucked 08:54 do you have a tele wand? 08:54 could break it 08:55 snap tele wand when surrounded like that 08:55 <@bubbles> oh 08:56 <@bubbles> lol empty 08:56 it's good to do it with wands that have like 1 charge left 08:56 ^ 08:56 <@bubbles> hmm 08:57 what are you trying to do? 08:58 <@bubbles> I know the portal is at the top right 08:58 ah 08:58 maybe try lure them all to west 08:58 <@bubbles> Lost my fly9ingboots 😦 08:59 <@bubbles> ok I have 500 turns left of free action 08:59 oh dear 08:59 <@bubbles> not hat should be enough 08:59 <@bubbles> I think this is a bad idea 08:59 <@bubbles> I don't do enough damage is the main issue 08:59 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Cookiedough (Bin Orc Fem Non) averted death, on T:78197 09:00 <@bubbles> So it is withing 6 tiles of here 09:01 <@bubbles> WE DONE IT 09:01 phew 09:01 <@bubbles> fuck 09:01 <@bubbles> it was RIGHT at the top 09:01 <@bubbles> ugh this is so bad 09:02 <@bubbles> oh god 09:02 <@bubbles> where is my pen 09:04 <@bubbles> I cannot see wher this surya deva is 09:04 -!- aoei has joined #hardfought 09:04 <@bubbles> I have lost my pen 😢 09:05 i'm going to go out on a limb, and guess that confused gold detection doesn't work in dnh? 09:05 <@bubbles> I think it does 09:05 <@bubbles> but Ic annot become confused 09:06 oic 09:06 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 09:06 <@bubbles> (level 30 binder is immune to confuse and stun) 09:06 gothca 09:06 <@bubbles> well, with numina bound, but yeah 09:06 <@bubbles> hmmmm 09:08 -!- musicdemon has left #hardfought 09:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] klintos (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:25647 09:09 <@bubbles> 892 turns to andro 09:10 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) was given their Quest, on T:32221 09:11 <@bubbles> oh now I am not 30 lol 09:12 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Cookiedough (Bin Orc Fem Non) wished for "magic marker", on T:78746 09:13 <@bubbles> can I be stunned and confused or need to be just confused? 09:13 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) killed Sara, the Last Oracle, on T:32394 09:14 stunned and confused is fine in vanilla... 09:14 <@bubbles> got it 09:14 <@bubbles> but might chill here for a bit 09:14 <@bubbles> can't believe I lost my pen 09:15 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha), 2212686 points, T:32425, killed by a changed 09:16 <@bubbles> oh fuck 09:16 <@bubbles> I am level 15 09:17 <@bubbles> ah it has all gone to fuck 09:18 <@bubbles> err ok wtf how is this thing attacking me during garnet rod??? 09:19 <@bubbles> yolo 09:20 [hdf-eu] [dnh] Cookiedough (Bin Orc Fem Non), 6845242 points, T:78840, killed by a weeping angel (with the Amulet) 09:20 :( 09:20 <@bubbles> crappy run 09:20 <@bubbles> weeping angel 09:20 <@bubbles> all because I screwed up andro 09:20 <@bubbles> I feel aggrieved because he is supposed to ALWAYS show which items are stolen 09:20 <@bubbles> but such is life! 09:20 <@bubbles> the criket is going well at least 09:22 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) was given the Shield of the Resolute Heart, on T:12754 09:23 for the record, in most variants (can't speak for dnh) cursed gold detection shows all traps as $. usable on earth and air, not so much on fire. as for water, well, fuck water 09:25 in dnh you can swim through relatively fine so it's less awful than vanilla 09:25 <@bubbles> Yeah it is poo on fire 09:25 <@bubbles> and yes with space mead water is ok 09:25 <@bubbles> I just screwed up the binding timings really really badly with the andro loss 09:25 <@bubbles> and a binder without bindings 09:25 <@bubbles> I got robbed on earth 09:25 <@bubbles> (because no andro bound) 09:29 binder sounds really complicated 09:31 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) was given the Tie-Dye Shirt of Shambhala, on T:16233 09:35 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) was given Frost Brand, on T:17228 09:37 -!- drunkmonkey has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 09:44 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) was given the Gauntlets of Spell Power, on T:18734 09:48 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:3041 09:53 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) was given their Quest, on T:20300 09:54 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 09:54 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya] by ChanServ 09:58 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha) was given the Rod of Lordly Might, on T:4310 10:01 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed greased fixed +5 dragonhide gauntlets of protection", on T:62080 10:01 !tell riker eh, dnethack is about getting as OP as possible anyway because certain monsters are also OP, so that weapon would fit right in... :P 10:01 I'm on it, LarienTelrunya. 10:04 Amy do spirits have 'level feelings' like angbanders? 10:04 spirits?! 10:04 yes, the race 10:04 uhh no, why would they? 10:04 because I am a spirit and I am getting level feelings 10:04 if you want level feelings, you need to pick the angbander race normally 10:04 also getting random inventory id 10:05 are you the angbander hybrid race? (can Ctrl-X to test that) 10:05 no, I am just sokosolver 10:05 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 194274 points, T:21176, killed by invisible Master Kaen 10:05 wait what 10:05 can I see your inventory please? 10:05 why am I an angbander now 10:05 oh nevermind :D 10:05 I literally didn't select this 10:05 -!- pots163 has joined #hardfought 10:05 I just pressed 'yes' for using my rc file 10:05 can I see your discoveries screen please, specifically the scrolls? 10:05 * amateurhour goes to check rc file 10:06 hmm, nothing obvious there 10:06 you might have triggered a hybridization trap then 10:06 for what it's worth it's been this way since dlvl 1 10:06 ugh... I'll check the ttyrec 10:06 OPTIONS=hybridsokosolver in rc file 10:07 yeah I see that 10:07 got wand of enlightenment if that helps with anything 10:07 it probably does not 10:07 gimme a minute or two to scan the ttyrec 10:07 what if there's a bug where reading from rc file for hybrid races puts a random one on too 10:07 uggggggghh the ttyrec is from Mines:13, need to go back to the previous one 10:08 yeah but I still have to look at the ttyrec for that 10:08 I'll find the right ttyrec for you no worries 10:09 https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/a/amateurhour/slex/ttyrec/2020-08-07.22:26:28.ttyrec.gz 10:09 wow it says angbander at the start too 10:09 yeah I literally just finally got it to open and see it 10:09 so there is indeed a minor bug 10:10 but I already did something that should prevent it from happening: OPTIONS=!randomhybrids 10:10 could this explain that game where I had 10 million special floors as angel sokosolver in any way? 10:11 probably not 10:11 maybe? it might have had the specialist hybrid race too 10:11 also wow I can no longer access the search bar in windows explorer, it literally disappeared 10:11 fuck windows 7 so damn much lol :P 10:12 w7 is EOL 10:12 time to update to a modern system 10:12 :) 10:13 yeah I'd install XP if I knew how 10:13 [hdf-us] [evil] hothraxxa (Inf Orc Mal Una), 2734 points, T:2631, killed by a dwarf king 10:13 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha) was given the Limb of the Black Tree, on T:6804 10:13 XP? why not windows 95? 10:14 think of how many windows 95 vms you could spin up on a modern pc 10:15 what about going back to the days of DOS? 10:16 -!- pots163 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16 that's a good idea 10:16 there's ssh clients for DOS so it's not like it'd get in the way of anything important like nethacking 10:17 heh, if I want dos I use dosbox 10:17 (and also if I want win 3.1) 10:17 time to switch to linux like a sensible person 10:19 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the invisible Demogorgon, on T:63213 10:20 i've been running linux since 97. damn 10:22 lol now I started a new explorer window and suddenly the search button is back. I changed *nothing.* 10:22 for real though it is end of life'd so it is worth moving on... 10:22 this is certainly the work of Gates trying to implant a chip into me via my laptop. :P 10:23 why would he do that if he can, ya know, just have the chip in the laptop 10:25 [hdf-eu] [slex] amateurhour (Mon Esp Mal Law), 98451 points, T:8187, quit 10:26 wtf why'd you quit? 10:26 because angbander is aids 10:26 lol 10:27 soko floors with bazillions of traps and monsters is the least fun I've had so far 10:27 ahh I see, yeah that combo is actually turbo aids, I agree 10:27 and randomly spawning walls that I couldn't reach with pickaxe, bleh 10:29 did you add OPTIONS=!randomhybrids to your rcfile? it should prevent your chars from starting with additional unwanted hybrid races 10:30 I'll add that now 10:30 ...shouldn't that be the default? 10:31 there's a problem with the implementation, but I guess I could make it so that "use the ones you set in your config file?" auto-sets it 10:31 if you just let the game pick a random char, the default should be that random hybrids are possible 10:31 anyway, I'll add it to my todo list, pretty sure I can figure out a solution 10:32 You can't ride cockatrices, right? 10:32 Does nethack have all this code for handling sitting on a petrifying steed just in case someone might add one down the road? 10:33 in slex you can, and it causes you to randomly turn to stone every once in a while IIRC 10:33 Vanilla. 10:33 I specifically had to add a way to become immune to that (player has to wear all of shirt, armor and cloak) 10:33 well vanilla might never add such a monster but I'm glad that they had code to handle it so I didn't have to write it myself, is what I wanted to imply ;) 10:34 also vanilla has a message for eating flint stones which is something that the player can never do, because lithivores also only exist in slex (and the message can be seen there) 10:35 Oh, lithivores *exist* in vanilla, they just don't eat rocks. :) 10:35 you mean rock moles, they only have a name that implies they could, but all they do is tunnel (and eat metal IIRC?) 10:35 Actually rock moles seem to eat the rock spaces they tunnel through 10:37 [hdf-us] [fh] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 20508 points, T:1046, killed by a kitten 10:43 <@bubbles> I think there was some code in dnh for petrifying steeds 10:51 Wait, sewer rat! There's a monk named amateurhour hiding under a wagon! 10:52 aww all iron bars are nonphasable if you're a spirit 10:52 sokosolver* 10:55 LarienTelrunya, evilhack is not about getting as OP as possible 10:55 K2: uhh I was talking about dnh 10:56 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha), 123866 points, T:12600, killed by Axus, while praying 10:56 you said 'eh' 10:56 meaning 'eh' the sound lol 10:56 you literally meant eh? 10:56 that means she's secretly canadian 10:56 ok eh? 10:57 do you not just say 'eh' as a sound to signify disagreement? 10:57 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 10:57 * aosdict is happy because no one says 'xnh' as a sound or common nethack abbreviation 10:58 fiq has this problem with people abbreviating full healing too 10:58 i pronounce xnethack as 'zee-nethack' 10:58 just cuz 11:04 is it all 3.4.3 variants that have the missing stairs thing? 11:04 where you can't find the stairs if the glyph is obscured in any way 11:08 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1328 11:08 xenathack 11:08 amateurhour: no. at least 3.4.3-nao and unnethack shouldn't have that problem 11:09 doing '_<' works then if there's items on the stairs? 11:09 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 11:09 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya] by ChanServ 11:10 amateurhour: yes 11:17 [hdf-us] [nh370] klintos (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) chose a runed broadsword to be named "Orcrist", on T:27063 11:19 <@bubbles> ooh that should be ported to dnh 11:19 <@bubbles> Might try a pr 11:20 nice one 11:26 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) was given Frost Brand, on T:351 11:29 Amy if I have two pairs of shoes that are basically the same but one is sexy flats and the other high heels 11:29 which would be better to pick? 11:31 well the AC bonus from skill is the same, so sexy flats would ultimately give more AC (higher skill cap) but takes longer to reach 11:31 is it even possible to get to grandmaster within a normal lifetime? :P 11:31 not sure, but it's much faster if your char is female 11:32 but has nasty downsides, right? 11:32 well a form of aggravate monster 11:48 -!- AntiGulp has joined #hardfought 11:48 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v AntiGulp] by ChanServ 12:02 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) was given the Fluorite Octahedron, on T:3850 12:04 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:09 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased +2 premium heart", on T:4115 12:12 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 12:13 Amy a throne is letting me unrestrict a skill, what would you recommend? 12:13 there's so many to pick from 12:13 uhhhh... 12:13 I'm a spirit monk 12:13 well I guess all the weapon skills are out since you don't want to use weapons 12:14 any spell school you plan on using that you don't have the skill for? if not, one of the combat skills 12:14 can I two-weapon martial arts? 12:15 ah, yes, so that might actually be a good choice 12:15 nice 12:18 oh, 'spirits aren't able to fight two-handed' 12:18 lol 12:18 oh well 12:18 gah 12:19 sorry :( however, if you polymorph into something with two weapon attacks, you still can 12:19 no worries 12:20 is Ruggo's teleport scroll a levelport? 12:20 and if so is he in the mines somewhere? 12:20 well he has a scroll of root pw, which always acts as a levelport scroll when read by a monster 12:20 the only times I've killed him have been when his tele fails 12:20 he might be in the mines, or he could have gone above it, i.e. dungeon level 1-2 or maybe 3 depending on how deep the entrance was 12:22 ah but never floors below? 12:22 is that true of other annoying levelporting things? like blad 12:22 uh, vlad 12:22 it shouldn't go below the bottom of the current branch, but I'm not sure 12:23 the scroll is the same (and obviously works the same) regardless of which monster uses it 12:25 the glyph changing nastytrap is such an eyesore lol 12:25 OMG you have the wing yellow changer nastytrap 12:26 (name inspired by my roommate, but I take the blame for the actual effect :P) 12:26 * amateurhour heads to the wiki to check what that does 12:26 uhh I'm afraid it might not be in the list, but it changes the glyphs as you see (and that's all it does) 12:26 it's not 12:26 it's awful lol 12:27 indeed! 12:27 really messes with the brain 12:27 [hdf-eu] [slex] amateurhour (Mon Esp Mal Law) killed Ruggo the Gnome King, on T:3996 12:27 yaaaaaaay 12:28 food time 12:37 <@riker> !pom 12:37 @riker: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2020-08-08 10:01 EDT: eh, dnethack is about getting as OP as possible anyway because certain monsters are also OP, so that weapon would fit right in... :P 12:37 @riker: The moon is waning gibbous; new moon in 9 days. 12:37 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu) averted death, on T:7335 12:45 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 150677 points, T:7669, killed by a blast of acid 12:51 [hdf-us] [xnh] every1 (Ran Gno Fem Neu) attained the rank of Scout, on T:40250 12:53 [hdf-us] [slex] MaxLunar (Ass Ang Fem Cha), 141 points, T:347, killed by a monster (the King in Yellow) 12:53 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Arc Hum Fem Neu), 549 points, T:273, killed by a dwarf, while frozen by a potion 12:55 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 472 points, T:765, killed by a rock piercer 12:56 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Arc Hum Fem Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:532 12:56 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Arc Hum Fem Neu), 808 points, T:557, killed by a flaming sphere 12:59 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Arc Hum Fem Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:380 12:59 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 13:00 [hdf-eu] [slex] amateurhour (Mon Esp Mal Law), 52797 points, T:4498, quit 13:00 wut 13:01 soko puzzles looked awful with that trap on lol 13:01 heh 13:01 then tried to uncurse my 4 healthstones but didn't and just thought 'meh, ima try spirit specialist' 13:01 without sokosolver 13:02 checked what races Tariru ascended with to see if any sounded nicer than angel 13:02 and spirit sounded interesting 13:02 heh, yeah spirit can be pretty powerful 13:02 gonna go make a coffee then play spirit specialist I think 13:03 nasty traps wouldn't be so bad if they couldn't last like 50k turns 13:04 like if I knew it would be say 5k turns I'd #quit less often I think 13:04 if it's 'early' enough in the game it's not worth fighting against them if you get me 13:04 heh, they work as intended :P 13:08 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Arc Hum Fem Neu), 4116 points, T:1822, killed by a marid 13:09 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha) wished for "blessed fixed +5 the holy moonlight sword", on T:7109 13:10 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 8 points, T:22, killed by a jackal 13:16 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +2 tensa zangetsu", on T:967 13:22 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1253 13:23 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha) killed Sir Garland, on T:7945 13:23 [hdf-us] [evil] bugsniper (Hea Dwa Mal Neu), 1451 points, T:3217, killed by a snake, while sleeping 13:27 -!- AntiGulp has quit [Quit: *dissolves into golden butterflies*] 13:43 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha) was given the Rod of Lordly Might, on T:8925 13:51 elenmirie_, I found your evilhack corpse 13:51 and it has the amulet of yendor 13:51 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha) was given their Quest, on T:9528 13:52 sounds like fake news :P 13:53 are bones AoY not auto identified as fake ones? 13:54 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:6517 13:57 they aren't 14:00 [hdf-us] [evil] bugsniper (Wiz Gia Mal Neu) destroyed elenmirie's ghost, the former Heathen, on T:2129 14:02 -!- tacco\unfoog has joined #hardfought 14:07 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Sam Clk Fem Law), 7804 points, T:1382, quit 14:11 gtg now, one last tour and then it's actually weekend for me. amateurhour: good luck in your run, and if you find out what the opera cloak is I'd be interested in reading about it :) (but don't go out of your way to ID it, it might in fact be total garbage) 14:12 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 14:13 is it an artifact do you know? 14:13 have a nice tour, seeya :) 14:13 oh they're already gone, d'oh 14:17 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Nob Vam Fem Cha), 210662 points, T:10672, killed by the Rebel Ringleader 14:27 [hdf-us] [dyn] Hildur (RossinK) (Val Hum Fem Law), 13165 points, T:18860, killed by Lord Surtur 14:34 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (And-Ana And Fem Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2370 14:38 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:40 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) was given Magicbane, on T:14107 14:42 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1752 14:46 [hdf-eu] [slex] amateurhour (Mon Esp Mal Law) killed Ruggo the Gnome King, on T:5807 14:52 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (And-Ana And Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased +2 cloak of the unheld one", on T:3457 14:58 !tell LarienTelrunya opera cloaks are cloaks of conflict 14:58 No worries, amateurhour, I've got this! 15:00 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Neu), 22758 points, T:3822, killed by a lightning bolt 15:01 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 15:01 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v ais523] by ChanServ 15:05 -!- amateurhour has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06 -!- amateurhour has joined #hardfought 15:13 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Vis (Arc Hum Mal Law), 1781 points, T:2639, killed by a boulder 15:17 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Vis (Arc Hum Mal Law), 110 points, T:742, killed by a jackal 15:19 [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Arc Gno Mal Neu), 2364 points, T:4403, killed by a paper golem, while frozen by a monster's gaze 15:20 -!- amateurhour has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21 -!- amateurhour has joined #hardfought 15:23 !tell LarienTelrunya lol the hangup message is quite angry isn't it, heh 15:23 I'm on it, amateurhour. 15:30 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Cha) was given Premium Heart, on T:1464 15:36 is slex still trying to massively penalise recoveries / hangup saves? 15:36 or has it changed in that respect? 15:37 <@riker> still does I believe 15:38 the attitudes of developers towards trickeries / save file modifications are interesting 15:38 not mine, I have no attitude towards it whatsoever 15:38 in AceHack I outright removed the majority of trickery detection (for games that were still loadable), deciding that it was beneficial to minimize the number of players' games that were lost to bugs and making them easy to recover 15:39 whereas some developers really dislike any sort of outside-the-game cheating 15:39 aosdict: so presumably you just left the trickery code untouched, because your lack of opinion meant it wasn't worth spending time changing the status quo 15:39 correct 15:39 <@riker> if you find an exploit you just gotta submit a patch and exploit it until its fixed 15:39 I guess that's an opinion in its own way 15:40 if we assume server operators aren't cheating on behalf of the players, then those are the only truly legitimate games, because in your own local copy you could have done whatever you wanted with the trickery code anyway. 15:41 [hdf-eu] [slex] amateurhour (Mon Esp Mal Law) killed the mastermind of bugsniper, the former Far Herald, on T:7498 15:41 I guess my attitude is that if players want to cheat in local play, they're going to do so regardless 15:41 bug-sniper: don't get too excited, I'm playing infidel 15:41 we start with the amulet :D 15:41 so it's best to make sure that anti-cheating measures don't interfere with anything the player might want to do 15:41 [hdf-eu] [slex] amateurhour (Mon Esp Mal Law) killed the weirdboy of spicycat, the former Crazy One, on T:7504 15:41 multibones, nice 15:41 and the ghost hoard one will be a cheap plastic copy 15:41 meanwhile, it's worth helping out server operators with respect to anti-cheat 15:42 but only really in cases where it seems necessary and won't interfere with legitimate recoveries 15:43 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Vis (Arc Hum Mal Law), 540 points, T:1988, killed by a gnome lord 15:46 can giants in evilhack make good use of the spell repair armor? 15:46 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana And Fem Neu), 83960 points, T:5361, burned by a tower of flame 15:46 hangup cheating does affect it for other people though when there's things like scoreboard or tournaments ais523 15:47 bug_sniper: there's a staff that can severely lower the failure rate 15:47 <@atheistcanuck> well that's why you have anti-cheat mechanisms on servers. 15:47 amateurhour: that's a case where it's important for server play 15:47 that said, preventing widespread hangup cheating is difficult 15:47 <@atheistcanuck> but for people's local copies, imo people can do whatever they like. 15:47 for sure 15:47 NH4 manages it in most contexts, but fails spectacularly during the game over sequence 15:48 <@riker> gotta leave a wizmode bones with a +127 wand of wishing 15:48 I remember writing an anti-cheat for NAO that detected certain types of attempts to hangup cheat and prevented the game leaving bones, so that hangup cheating wouldn't affect other players' games 15:48 <@riker> on dlvl 1, and just startscum until you roll that bones file 15:49 I think some recent versions of vanilla mark wizmode bones and only load them in wizmode games 15:50 it's still possible to cheat, ofc, but you'd have to edit the game executable or the save file 15:50 (not 100% sure on this) 15:50 can you get bones on dlvl1? 15:50 <@riker> "3.6 isnt a real version" -- amy 15:51 sort-of, it allows loading bones but doesn't allow leaving them 15:51 <@riker> amateurhour I've done it before in 3.4.3 to test things 15:51 so there's no legitimate circumstances in which it should be a bones level 15:51 <@riker> yeah I comment out the check for when to leave bones 15:51 <@riker> if you care enough then just put it on mines 1 or smth 15:51 'every game is winnable' 15:51 arch lich dlvl 1 15:51 :^) 15:52 mines:1 and dungeons:4 are the shallowest levels that can legitimately have bones left there 15:52 enable bones for dlvl 1 for greater fun for the players pls 15:52 can someone on the devteam please fix dl1 spider rooms 15:52 oh look, a devteam member 15:52 :) 15:53 what do you mean by "spider rooms"? 15:53 there's a type of themed room that generates a bunch of giant spiders 15:53 all well and good, but themed rooms currently obey no depth limits 15:54 so you can spawn on dl1 with the only way forward being through a nest of giant spiders 15:54 at a first guess I would blame bhaak for this, although I might be wrong 15:54 I made https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/pull/344 to allow themed rooms to specify max and min depth 15:54 I agree that this sort of monster generation probably should have a depth limit 15:55 (I'm aware of the idea of theme rooms generally, but haven't looked at the specific list of theme rooms that exist) 15:55 what does dragonbane do in evilhack? 15:56 it's appearantly a pair of gloves 15:57 yeah if the spider rooms go as-is into the release of 3.7.0 that will be bad 15:57 they're the number one complaint by 370-dev players 15:58 I would hope that theme room balance will be fixed by release, and if I remember, will complain about it if someone attempts to release before fixing it 15:58 bug_sniper it's a pair of dragonhide globes that grant reflection and acid resistance 15:58 gloves* 15:58 awesome artifact actually 15:59 the glove slot does seem like a particularly powerful place to put reflection 15:59 it's great for monks since no body armor 15:59 especially awesome for giants 15:59 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2061 15:59 who also can't wear armor 15:59 yep 16:00 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) had Stormbringer bestowed upon him by Kos, on T:6929 16:01 bugsniper https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/EvilHack has lots of great info 16:01 mobileuser: congrats on the infidel ascension! i just saw that ! 16:02 heh, thx! 16:02 That was good fun! But very tough. 16:04 not on dragonbane though, I had to check artilist for it 16:04 dragonbane is mentioned on the page 16:04 also, how do you get elbereth from the oracle? 16:04 [hdf-us] [evil] bugsniper (Wiz Gia Mal Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3978 16:05 I think it might be one of the rumors eventually 16:05 giants are hard, but super fun 16:05 a more reliable way to learn elbereth is to read it in sokoban or mine's end 16:06 ^ 16:06 pick up every boulder you see 16:06 wiki: Dragonbane has been switched to a pair of dragonhide gloves that provides reflection, warns against dragons, and provides acid resistance. 16:06 rebatela: next evilhack version fixes a bug where stacks of boulders only weight 8 16:07 instead the stack weight will be 8*size of stack 16:07 * amateurhour regrets pointing it out to evil K2 16:07 ugh 16:07 still a stack of size like 20 or something isn't _too_ bad... 16:08 what role you playing as bug_sniper? 16:08 I had noticed that it didn't matter 16:08 not sure why you TOLD HIM though ;) 16:09 because he beats me if I hide bugs from him 16:09 lol 16:09 <@riker> rebatela make a list of bugs for me to ignore and I wont fix them :p 16:09 lol 16:10 <@riker> I was the one who fixed the boulder stack thing - k2 keeps a running list of bugs like that 16:10 ah is that how you heard of it, from the etherpad? 16:10 I thought you mean check evilhack logs for the word bug 16:10 <@riker> dont chill in #evilhack 16:10 <@riker> is it logged by hdf? 16:11 no 16:11 <@riker> doesnt have a rld in it 16:11 <@riker> yeah that wretched hive is a black box to me 16:11 yet another point in favor of irc supremacy 16:11 about 50% of the chat there is demanding justice for doggos 16:12 <@riker> ...? 16:12 I want the starting pet to have some form of protection against being instakilled by zombies 16:12 bobble hats for doggos! 16:12 up the revolution! 16:12 K2 likes watching kittens and doggos die 16:13 we demand justice! 16:13 <@riker> ah I see 16:13 that's why he makes this thing called evilhack 16:13 amateurhour: summon some tame zombies around ozzy and koa 16:13 and also homunculii, no one remembers them 16:13 [hdf-us] [evil] bugsniper (Wiz Gia Mal Neu), 4285 points, T:5130, zombified by a hobbit zombie 16:14 there, you see? 16:14 injustice. 16:15 healer 16:16 those zombies are kinda evil. Maybe I need to highlight the fatal illness in the status 16:16 is there a nethackrc for that? 16:17 <@ShivanHunter> I discovered after losing an embarrassing amount of pseudodragons that "cure sickness" is now a directional spell - I wonder if it'd be game-breaking to do the same to unihorns so you can cure your pet 16:17 <@ShivanHunter> bug_sniper: mine does, just a sec 16:18 <@ShivanHunter> ah, I just use "OPTIONS=HILITE_STATUS: condition/major-troubles/orange" 16:18 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:63643 16:18 smoky potion. sweet! 16:18 <@ShivanHunter> heh, nice 16:18 0:89 taboot! 16:18 you're best off just compassionately abandoning it on dlvl1 for most roles 16:18 * elenmirie_ holds up sign: Bobble hats for doggos! 16:19 doggo hats for bobbles! 16:19 :D 16:19 <@ShivanHunter> lol 16:19 bug_sniper: don't stop and fight the zombies. Try to avoid them. They resurrect anyway 16:19 or throw them in lava or tin them if you can 16:19 then they don't come back 16:19 they used to be faster when the game first came out and they were a real bitch 16:20 the only good use of a forge :^) 16:20 sometimes they spawn in great numbers 16:20 and the kill your pet 16:20 or the shopkeeper (which can be good) 16:20 * elenmirie_ shouts: bobble hats for doggos! 16:20 shopkeepers spawn with hats in evil, why not pets? 16:20 i found your bones in a scroll shop this game elenmirie 16:21 there were a lot of zombies on the oracle level 16:21 you had all sorts of stuff and i couldn't afford it, but then something killed the shopkeeper! 16:21 I'm sure my bones are spread all over the damn dungeon, lol 16:21 and everything was free! huzzah! 16:21 yeah, but you're good. So you leave good bones :) 16:21 :D 16:21 do bones tend to get all cleaned up when someone ascends a game, or do plenty still stick around? 16:21 yeah!! everything was free and now I'm about to kill rodney 16:22 go on then! 16:22 i semi superstitiously try not to play a variant right after someone wins one 16:22 go go go!!! 16:22 I always support killing Rodney, he's my ex. 16:22 lol 16:22 rodney has a book, can't be trusted, better kill 'im 16:24 Too right he can't be trusted. 16:28 *sigh* that's what you get for marrying an ancient wizard at the Candlelight Chapel in Vegas. Nothing but trouble. 16:30 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:54709 16:30 did you meet his twin and find there was Double Trouble? 16:30 <@ShivanHunter> well that was easy 16:30 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:54710 16:30 nice 16:30 [hdf-us] [nh370] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:2762 16:31 vlad decimated my giant monk when I got that far, lol 16:31 amateurhour: that's a very good question! possibly 16:32 * K2 adds hats to pet dogs starting inventory, but doesnt allow them to wear it 16:32 muhahahaha 16:32 K2: well that's really nice of you... wait. 16:32 <@riker> give them a hat that doesnt protect vs Z 16:32 K2: you evil so and so. 16:32 dog sweaters instead 16:32 awww so cute 16:32 doggie hoodies? 16:33 with hats attached 16:33 cute! 16:33 [hdf-us] [evil] bugsniper (Wiz Gno Mal Cha), 317 points, T:937, killed by an ancient pseudodragon 16:33 * elenmirie_ paints more signs 16:33 nasty bones 16:34 wasn't me! 16:34 for oncet 16:34 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 16:34 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya] by ChanServ 16:36 A haiku: The loyal doggos/ Zombies feast upon brains/ player is saddo. 16:36 amateurhour: every single maintained 3.4.3 variant and variants of those (nh4+frends) have it so that things obscuring stairs cause the tile to have a red background 16:37 yeah, though autotravel doesn't find it anymore 16:38 and in the case of slex there's cases where the stairs can have their glyph just straight up deleted 16:38 I'd like both, but I can cope with one or t'other, as long as I know which set of rules I'm playing by 16:38 can imagine that true in the others, but more contrived to do so 16:38 involves having a trap on the stairs then removing the trap 16:39 I was going to say, that's a remote corner case, then I remembered that we are talking about nethack 16:39 ais523: the "gleefully exploit bugs ti force people to fix it" is the means I encouraged people to take when it came to junethack logpoints 16:40 did it work? 16:40 most people thought the scoring category dumb and counterproductive but nobody on junethack dev side bothered to remove it 16:40 so I encouraged people to exploit it to have it gone 16:40 yes, it did 16:40 \o/ 16:40 ok 16:40 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3007 16:40 amateurhour: most variants I play have travel work on those covered stairs 16:41 but I mostly play nh4-derivatives 16:41 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 1312 points, T:1891, killed by a dog 16:41 I believe dnh works too 16:41 dnh is 3.4.3-based 16:41 <@riker> does not 16:41 <@riker> sadly 16:41 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:3166 16:41 @riker seriously? 16:41 <@riker> I've been meaning to fix that for ages 16:42 @Chris_ANG please fix this 16:42 <@riker> wrong chris pinged lol 16:42 consistency is king 16:42 what 16:42 the problem was fixed 16:42 like over a year ago 16:42 why is it back 16:43 did someone fiddle with the webhook again? 16:43 <@riker> who knows 16:43 * elenmirie_ tries using the webhook as a bow for my fiddle 16:43 the funny thing is, total points would probably have been less broken than logpoints 16:43 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: sorry for my connection] 16:43 !tell ais523 slex doesn't "massively penalize" hangup cheating right now, but it tracks the # of possibly-cheating-hangups (ones at prompts as opposed to ones when it was the player's turn anyway) 16:43 LarienTelrunya: Message from amateurhour at 2020-08-08 14:58 EDT: opera cloaks are cloaks of conflict 16:43 LarienTelrunya: Message from amateurhour at 2020-08-08 15:23 EDT: lol the hangup message is quite angry isn't it, heh 16:43 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 16:43 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 16:43 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v ais523] by ChanServ 16:43 the funny thing is, total points would probably have been less broken than logpoints 16:43 ais523: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2020-08-08 16:43 EDT: slex doesn't "massively penalize" hangup cheating right now, but it tracks the # of possibly-cheating-hangups (ones at prompts as opposed to ones when it was the player's turn anyway) 16:43 logpoints just favours short games 16:44 ^^that, yes 16:44 [hdf-us] [nh370] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Cha) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:4574 16:44 and applying logpoints to NH4 scoring is just broken because the scoring categories are logarithms anyway 16:44 [hdf-us] [nh370] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Cha) hit with a wielded weapon for the first time, on T:4597 16:44 ais523: wasn't log points your idea initially :v 16:44 amateurhour: well I guess it is re: hangup message; if only I could implement a real fix for that problem I wouldn't have to deal with that nonsense again 16:44 so you end up with a log of a log which is, effectively, just a constant 16:44 stenno: I don't think so 16:44 [hdf-us] [nh370] MHL (Wiz Hum Fem Neu), 1704 points, T:2906, killed by a gnome, while sleeping 16:45 my main scoring idea was "most ascensions in 24 hours" but it got kind-of skewed away from the original idea 16:45 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:45 well we did that as a trophy thingy 16:45 most exploited scoring category, poss? 16:45 which was to create a "most X" thing that didn't favour spamclans, and to do so by requiring all the games to both start and end in a single 24-hour period 16:45 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) attained the rank of Thaumaturge, on T:3547 16:46 but parking 16:46 makes it meaningless 16:46 ^ 16:46 just silly, who can park the most games 16:46 ais523: when I played pathos I thought it had a far more interesting score model than nethack 16:46 the original idea was immune to parking, but other junethack people thought that it wouldn't be inclusive enough for inexperienced players 16:46 parking requires coordination 16:46 lol @ "most parked ascensions all finished on the last day of the tournament" BS. sadly FIQ's plan to exploit things to get them removed apparently didn't work on that one (yet?) 16:46 and then let them off all at once 16:46 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) became literate by reading a book, on T:3624 16:46 it works on a "completionist" system 16:46 FIQ: so does NH4 16:47 in the sense that there are huge diminishing returns in most categories, and many of them can reasonably be 100%ed 16:47 I don't really like the logarithmic aspect of NH4 though 16:47 I think it just causes weird scoring 16:47 well, it's log if the category is unbounded, beause anything else grows too quickly 16:47 and sqrt if it's bounded 16:47 I doubt that teamsplat was the first to exploit that, but we did 16:47 it probably isn't perfect, but I think it's a lot better than vanilla 16:47 I think the same system would work better but have it not scale using log 16:47 Oh sure definitely 16:48 But I think log makes it worse than simple linear scoring 16:48 I was trying to avoid issues where, e.g., gold carried and kills completely outweigh all other scoring categories in vanilla for maxscore 16:48 if you find a glitch to increase your carry capacity (and to fill it with gold) then gold dominates, if you don't then kills dominate 16:49 this seems like a natural issue if you have unbounded categories in the scoring, thus the logarithms 16:49 pathos still scores your inventory, but it's capped to twice the score you have from other means 16:49 maybe it would be correct to remove the sqrt on the bounded categories, though? 16:49 neeto-torpeedo 16:49 are we discussing scoring systems for junethack here or particular variants' ingame score? 16:49 FIQ: ugh, I don't like that 16:50 amateurhour: currently, the latter 16:50 [hdf-us] [nh370] MHL (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 1248 points, T:1803, killed by a bugbear 16:50 could the JNH scoreboard reinterpret NH3 scores using NH4 (or another)'s method? 16:50 is it possible to do a decent tournament scoring system without a decent ingame scoring system? 16:50 or is the log insufficiently detailed to allow re-interpretation 16:50 because at the moment, we have neither 16:50 <@FIQ> For reference 16:50 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/741760374797238303/Screenshot_20200808-225006.jpg 16:50 yes if the tournament score is unrelated to ingame score 16:51 did u rly just sign in to discord just to post an image lol 16:51 I think you're right, amateurhour 16:51 many ingame scoring categories aren't visible in the xlog, not even in the expanded xlogs some variants use 16:51 [hdf-us] [nh370] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Cha), 9082 points, T:5900, killed by a gnome king 16:51 but we still don't have it right, lol 16:51 things like gem value and kill score, in particular, aren't tracked in the xlog 16:51 and for comparision, http://home.fiq.se/nh4_score.png 16:51 but surely it would help if we had it? Paint me idealistic! 16:52 and many scoring categories are lumped into the variable u.urexp so even the game doens't know where the score came from 16:52 (the scores cap at 30k in NH4) 16:52 (e.g. ID points for using unIDed items) 16:52 <@riker> @FIQ believe the webhook being disabled in some places dates to when somebody pinged everyone 16:52 FIQ: was that a pacifist game? 16:52 @riker but that's fixed everywhere 16:53 or is that, "survival: unknown" so it's still ongoing 16:53 ais523: just checked, it is! 16:53 I had forgotten about that paci game lol 16:53 but yeah it's unfinished 16:53 the scoring categories didn't obey the normal correlations 16:53 it's a screenshot I made just now for fiqhack 16:53 <@riker> @FIQ really? pretty sure webhooks can still ping everyone 16:53 from an ongoing game 16:54 @riker @NetHack doesn't work 16:54 <@riker> that's not the same 16:54 it was disabled alongside everyone-pings 16:54 <@riker> role pings vs everyone pings are treated differently for discord bots 16:54 @here doesn't work either 16:54 <@riker> then probably not any good reason to make it work liek that anymroe 16:54 at least it's a good thing that the devteam's email address doesn't ping everyone, now 16:54 FIQ: that just pinged me 16:55 [hdf-us] [nh370] MHL (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 712 points, T:1358, killed by a homunculus, while sleeping 16:55 LarienTelrunya: but you're on IRC 16:55 throwing an idea out there: each variant has some amount of points, maybe 1000, and each variant is worth 1000/(number of ascensions) points 16:55 that sounds like z-score 16:55 but for variants rather than roles 16:55 cue a huge brawl about which variant is worth how many points 16:56 ascending with different race/role/variant has been a pretty great scoring method, really lets fans of different variants combine their efforts, encourages trying new things 16:56 z-score for roles would be kind-of dominated by slex, if ascending it were at all reasonable 16:56 make all the variants the same I guess, it'll balance out by people ascending 16:56 but yes 16:56 because it would be easy to find roles that hadn't been ascended yet, and probably only moderately difficult to find roles that hadn't been ascended yet and were less than completely insane 16:56 forget about roles for the scoring except duplicates for clans are discarded imo 16:56 replacing 24h ascensions with variant z-score ascensions is an interesting idea 16:56 since it encourages ascending in a lot of different variants 16:56 <@riker> i like ^ as an idea 16:56 and reduces the impact of spamclans 16:57 FIQ: I like that idea 16:57 <@riker> and i'ts a mild luxidream nerf 16:57 not to zero -- more clan members are still better -- but it's reduced 16:57 if a spamclan decides to play variants then they still have an advantage I think 16:57 luxidream can realibly ascend every variant except slex 16:57 idea: slex ascensions count tenfold because of the bigger amount of time required to get one :P 16:57 the only way to really hurt spamclans is to have some sort of "skill gate" in a category, meaning that weaker players don't count at all 16:57 what's a spamclan? Is teamsplat considered that? 16:57 hmm, now I'm wondering how different variants compare in terms of realtime to win for a skilled player 16:57 just curious 16:57 tbh Amy, if someone ascends slex in junethack they can have the whole pot of points lol 16:58 elenmirie_: spamclans are clans that win by having a lot of players in it 16:58 can count on one hand the number of people that could do it 16:58 elenmirie_: a spamclan is one who recruits a large number of lower-skilled players and wins as a consequence 16:58 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased +2 gray dragon scale mail", on T:17960 16:58 neither teamsplat of ootc, the usual contenders for top dog, are spamclans 16:58 *or ootc 16:58 it's been less of a problem recently 16:58 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) killed Yeenoghu, on T:55496 16:58 we generally do well, not necessarily win, by having a lot of players that each do well 16:58 does that make us a spamclan? 16:58 although, some previous tournaments have turned into interesting competitions between a true spamclan and an elite clan 16:58 there's a big debate about limiting clan size 16:58 however, the impact of a single very good player carrying a clan should probably be nerfed 16:59 amateurhour: heh, if slexcensions counted like that then maybe there would be an incentive for more players to "git gud" and actually pull it off :P 16:59 right, the "Luxidream's clan wins" problem is sort-of the opposite of the spamclan problem 16:59 <@riker> slex ascensions should count as 10 ascensions or something stupid 16:59 although, arguably in many cases Luxidream's clan /should/ win 16:59 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 2407 points, T:4535, killed by a chameleon imitating a gargoyle 16:59 while ootc's members besides luxidream are very much capable players, luxidream's sheer skill usually dominates everyone else, within and outside the clan 16:59 in TNNT, ootc would have won without luxidream 16:59 <@riker> sheer skill & dedication to play 16:59 and could probably almost win junethack in a clan all by himself 17:00 I think we should also try to avoid pressuring players into playing variants that they don't agree with 17:00 <@riker> the dude probably plays more nethack that month than most other people 17:00 many players will refuse to play particular variants for various reasons 17:00 there's enough variants that surely that isn't a problem... 17:00 hmm… we could compare clans by, say, how well their third-best players did 17:00 @riker not true I think 17:00 <@riker> yeah i refuse to play evilhack due to k2's crimes against doggos 17:00 luxidream just have a very high asc% rate 17:01 he wins most of his games 17:01 when I recruited for teamsplat I got a lot of folks that said, I only play vanilla, to which I said, okay. 17:01 amateurhour: well, if some variants are worth nothing and some are worth a huge amount, that puts a large amount of pressure to go for the high-scoring ones 17:01 just play vanilla then 17:01 so I don't think he plays more as much as just better 17:01 elenmirie_: you find the wand balance patch distasteful, right? 17:01 ais523: if they're not worth very much it'd be because a bazillion people ascend it 17:01 those folks included, Tangles, K2, Grasshopper and others 17:01 <@riker> what's wrong with the wand balance patch other than turbobuffing soldiers? 17:01 ais523: z-score would encourage playing different variants while not significantly penalizing avoiding 1-2 variants in particular you dislike 17:02 some of them might have moved on as a direct result of playing in Junethack 17:02 FIQ: perhaps 17:02 but giving each variant a different score would be a very bad idea 17:02 I can just imagine a situation, though, where the intentionally hard variants became worth a lot and all the easier variants worthless 17:02 spicycat: less than I used to 17:02 @riker: the wand destruction patch means that you can never safely carry wands out in the open :P (or at least the versions of it that I experienced were like that) 17:02 tbh the only one that I could see being relatively 'worthless' in junethack would be nao vanilla 17:02 am curious if wand balance, or built-in curses ui, is enough to make the nh4+f variants unplayable for any folks 17:02 which has most of the games played 17:02 not only could it encourage people to play variants they don't want to play, it may also (at least in theory, but I think the current variant devs are mature enough for this to be a non-issue) offend variant developers if their particular variant is worth less 17:03 <@riker> amateurhour: nh4? 17:03 although one advantage of z-score is that it makes all the variants equally valuable by definition, because in each variant you have x people who each score 1/x points 17:03 so the same number of points enter the system from each variant 17:03 https://junethack.net/activity 17:03 amateurhour: z-score would also encourage those who insist on staying with vanilla to at least *try* other variants 17:03 yeah 17:04 the variant gamut runs wide enough that there's probably one variant for everyone 17:04 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Vis (Arc Hum Mal Law), 579 points, T:764, killed by a bat 17:04 i agree with FIQ, making z-scores weighted based on variant would be Bad™ 17:05 that is not what I said at all 17:05 its just one of those known things, some variants are more challenging than others 17:05 kek 17:05 it is 17:05 <@riker> k2 do you have a rough scale in mind? 17:05 <+FIQ> but giving each variant a different score would be a very bad idea 17:05 what I said was that having variants be scored *differently* based on something arbitrary like subjective difficulty is a terrible idea 17:05 <@riker> like, 1/2 the pts for the easy ones, 1x for medium, 2x for hard ones? 17:05 K2: I think the idea is to award 1 point per variant, split evenly among all ascensions of that variant 17:05 thats what I just agreed with 17:05 weirdo 17:06 <@riker> easy being like 3.4.3 vanilla, maybe nh4, evilhack, etc. 17:06 like, I think grunthack is a pretty easy variant 17:06 wait, evilhack is easy? 17:06 <@riker> ah wait, i think both me and fiq misread k2 17:06 while unnethack is a hard variant 17:06 most people think the opposite 17:06 there are also issues like vanilla Slash'EM, which is very easy if you know how to exploit it and very hard if you don't 17:06 this is probably a result of my playstyl 17:06 difficulty is relative to a degree 17:06 *playstyle 17:07 <@riker> are there any variants (other than slex and slex-based variants) that could be easily recognized as "hard"? 17:07 (and I can imagine a hypothetical variant that's random to the extent that a skilled player's asc rate won't be much better than an unskilled player's, so ascending is mostly a matter of persistence) 17:07 to my knowledge, evilhack's "difficulty" comes from having a lot of gotchas 17:07 which I am not a fan of at all 17:07 it has grunthack beholders, for example 17:08 thats not a goctha 17:08 gotcha even 17:08 there are some variants that nerfed things from vanilla without much compensation 17:08 do you even know what a gotcha is 17:08 <@riker> i like things like buffing dragons 17:08 i do and you're dead wrong about evilhack 17:08 grunthack beholders has a ranged instadeath 17:08 and thus are obviously more difficult 17:08 the grunthack beholder should be level 6 and display as warning level 2 :P 17:08 but vanilla's balance is very flexible 17:08 that doesn't respect NetHack's typical ranged rules since it's a gaze 17:08 and the resistance against the instadeath is not hard to come by 17:08 does it pierce reflection? 17:08 yes 17:08 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) was given their Quest, on T:19163 17:09 beholders have ranged petrification instadeath 17:09 FIQ: what makes unnethack hard for you? 17:09 grunthack beholders stoning gaze is instant, just like medusa 17:09 that is hard to resist in vanilla 17:09 presumably it's easier in evilhack? 17:09 they also have a cancel attack which is annoying but not game-ending 17:09 cancel is resisted by MR in Slash'EM 17:09 and a disintegration attack that are IIRC resisted by magic res 17:09 ais523, beholders in evilhack, their stoning gaze is slow stoning 17:09 *is 17:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) acquired the Mines' End luckstone, on T:9485 17:09 I don't think it can be used by monster against player in vnilla 17:09 K2: oh that's different 17:10 it was instapetrify earlier 17:10 initially yes 17:10 and I asked you once to change it, and you said no 17:10 no 17:10 bhaak: I don't fully recall, it was years ago I played unnethack 17:10 but I think it was midgame things hurting more than I instinctually know they should 17:10 NetHack has a very simple logic for slow versus insta: if it's the fault of something the player did, insta, otherwise slow 17:10 unnethack in my experience is moderately more difficult than vanilla 17:10 probably some nerf somewhere I'm unfamiliar with 17:10 but not too much 17:10 although, I think the game might possibly be improved by making all petrification sources into slow stoning 17:10 am I the only player who feels that unnethack is an easy variant? I mean, even I ascended it so it can't be so hard... 17:11 ais523 ^^, slex did that 17:11 I think it's harder than vanilla, but that may not make it hard in an absolute sense 17:11 unnethack is harder than vanilla, yes 17:11 hmm, now I'm wondering how many actual unpreventable instadeaths slex has 17:11 I think this is an objective fact 17:11 <@riker> do things like "you can't have magic resistnace" count ais? 17:11 ais523 if you made all stoning of the slow stoning type, might as well just remove medusa 17:11 my guess would be, not many, but in many cases the cues are bad and the ways to avoid slow instadeaths are obscure and might not be accessible 17:11 <@riker> since it's borderline unpreventable to not die to a Death attack like that 17:12 ais523: you can randomly not be allowed to have poison resistance lol 17:12 @riker: I'm counting death attacks as a type of instadeath, as opposed to being incapable of gaining immunity as a type of instadeath 17:12 ais523: Tariru ascended slex 4 times in a row 17:12 so it's definitely possible to realibly win it 17:12 *reliably 17:12 most of the most evil things in slex have very low probability 17:12 LarienTelrunya: wut? do you consider yourself not an expert nethack player? 17:12 tariru's slex ascension ratio is 1.0 17:13 and yeah this was when slex had like 400 floors 17:13 grunthack: very difficult early game, but once you get your first wish and you know what to wish for, game gets a fair amount easier. sporkhack: much like vanilla early game but progressively gets more difficult 17:13 and even then are often avoidable 17:13 let's not pretend superhumans are relevant for the conversation 17:13 lol 17:13 but, I'm not sure that this necessarliy means the game is balanced :-P 17:13 bhaak: nah, I didn't ascend spork, evil or fiqhack, so I'm certainly not a very good player 17:13 sporkhack is harder than grunthack imo 17:13 fiqhack's main difficulty lies with its lategame 17:14 I played some spork back in the early days of variants, and felt that its balance was off, not necessarily in a "hard vs. easy" sense 17:14 but in the sense of inconsistent nerfings meaning that some things that were interesting decisions became uninteresting 17:14 I "fixed" the difficulty curve in fiqhack by sheer accident 17:14 improving the AI, giving it more tools and making the mines guranteed to be lit will do that for you 17:14 since the former makes lategame harder and the latter makes earlygame easier 17:14 ais523: did you ever actually playtest slex? I'd be very interested in knowing what you think of its balance 17:15 LarienTelrunya: there are some things in slex that offend me to the level that I'm not interested in playing it 17:15 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) killed Orcus, on T:55951 17:15 lol 17:15 i like to think evilhack is difficult from start to finish but mobileuser keeps ascending, so I'll need to make some tweaks :P 17:15 it's unbalanced af, one moment you're fine and the next moment there's 3 frag grenades beneath you and you're being farted at by little girls 17:15 :P 17:15 Heh K2 17:15 iirc my furthest progress in slex is castle 17:15 <@ShivanHunter> RIP Orcus's wand of death :( :( :( 17:15 I died to something arbitrary, I forgot what 17:15 lol @ that supposedly being unbalanced. but in vanilla it's balanced that you can be at full health with fat armor and everything and the next turn a little dart hits you and you instantly die? :P 17:16 FIQ: my furthest in slex is clearning out minetown. then promptly quit 17:16 *clearing 17:16 LarienTelrunya: I would not consider that unbalanced if the poison instadeaths started happening late enough that you could reasonably get protection against them before then 17:16 amateurhour: we're not talking about what happened to you yesterday at the bar but about nethack variants. please, stay on topic 17:16 (I appreciate that that isn't the case at the moment) 17:17 hah 17:17 ais523: I've never understood why there is poison instadeath at all, that seems completely off especially considering how common poison attacks are. 17:17 at the bar? that's his home life 17:17 descriptions of what occurs in slex do indeed sound like fever dreams 17:17 LarienTelrunya: are you aware of how Angband is balanced? 17:17 in my variant, and I believe most other ones, poison instadeath was changed to something else nasty 17:17 in fi qhack's case, it reduces constitution "permanently" (not possible to recover with restore ability) 17:17 *fiqhack's 17:17 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:1252 17:17 considering that reducing con also reduces your max HP, this is quite harmful 17:18 ais523: "The Drolem breathes--More-- You die. Please farm for 200000 turns to get poison resistance next time you go below floor 46." 17:18 so yes, the basic idea behind Angband's balance is that there are a series of, basically, monsters or level features that will kill you if you go into their areas unprepared 17:18 this gives an incentive to prepare on earlier levels before going later 17:18 which Angband needs as it has very little mechanism to prevent you going anywhere at any time 17:19 and lets you grind for as long as you wany 17:19 * want 17:19 NetHack has some vestiges of a balance system like that; poison instadeath is one of them 17:19 heh, breaths in Angband also deal so much damage and often have so many nasty side effects that if you get caught by them in the open on deep levels, even with max HP and all resists covered, you can get killed instantly 17:19 iirc recent angband versions have dungeon permanence on per default 17:19 in Angband, if you randomly teleport on a deep level and end up in a room full of time/inertia/plasma/whatever hounds, they'll all breathe at you at once and kill you from full HP no matter what 17:20 ah, OK; I'm trying to talk about a traditional-style Angband here, both because there are hundreds of Angband variants and because that's how the game was created 17:20 poison instadeath, as a result, is something that encourages people to take risks to get poison resistance before they get killed through lack of it 17:20 evilhack has a different take on poison instadeath, because resistances arent binary 17:20 this probably doesn't quite work, because there are limits to your /ability/ to take risks to get poison resistance 17:21 ais523: do you think the exercise/abuse system is flawed? would removing it entirely make things worse? 17:21 but I don't think it's inherently unbalanced, it's just that the rest of the game doesn't work around it 17:21 once you reach 35% poison res, poison instadeath goes away, you take a fair amount of damage instead (relative to the % of poison res) 17:21 FIQ: I'm not sure if the entire idea behind it is inherently flawed, but I don't think the current numbers work and I think it may be that there are no numbers that work 17:22 i think more poeple would play fiqhack if soldiers couldnt be skilled with wands 17:22 :P 17:22 part of the issue is that game balance fundamentally comes down to a series of resource-trading decisions 17:22 with exercise/abuse, the output of the resource conversion makes sense, but the input is probably broken 17:22 K2: honestly they've never been a huge problem for me 17:22 they're dangerous 17:22 but they *should* be dangerous 17:23 and there are a lot of workarounds to that (such as the exercise caps) but that don't fix the underlying problem 17:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 1240 points, T:1390, killed by a bolt of fire 17:23 [hdf-eu] [slex] amateurhour (Mon Esp Mal Law), 115077 points, T:9938, quit 17:23 waaaaaaaaat amateurhour what went wrong this time that lead you to quit? 17:23 !lastgame amateurhour 17:23 LarienTelrunya: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/a/amateurhour/evilhack/dumplog/1589035969.evil.html | [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/a/amateurhour/slex/dumplog/1596906153.slex.txt 17:23 ais523: maybe the solution is to remove all sources of exercise/abuse completely and redo the entire system from scratch 17:23 oh, that 17:23 well, go team green sline I guess :P 17:23 LarienTelrunya he noticed he was playing slex 17:23 *slime 17:23 #quit 17:24 LOL K2! 17:24 I got hurt by a weregreenslime but the real problem was the floor below was a floor from dnh 17:24 <@ShivanHunter> lol 17:24 where there were ten million soldiers throwing frag grenades 17:24 @ShivanHunter how was orcus? 17:24 cannot deal with that _and_ be a slime 17:24 and yeenoghu 17:24 <@ShivanHunter> he died in a few hits but he took a few MaxHP with his not-wand of death 17:24 FIQ: actually, a thought that has come to me (as a result of this conversation) that any balance discussion in NetHack needs to start by identifying what the fundamental limitation on the player that drives them forward is 17:24 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:24 <@ShivanHunter> yeenoghu never touched me at all , I think 17:25 huh 17:25 say we want to reward players for going around burdened with higher STr 17:25 that is open for blatant abuse 17:25 lock yourself into a safe place 17:25 oh you're playing wiz, probably AoE'ed him to death 17:25 wander around to exercise str 17:25 how do we prevent people from playing normally, then running around burdened for a few thousand turns? 17:25 -!- LarienTelrunya10 has joined #hardfought 17:25 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya10] by ChanServ 17:25 <@ShivanHunter> since they don't teleport right back to you - they only go a few tiles at a time, and tend to hand around by the upstair - I just went in and picked them off with magic missile 17:25 right, my point is that this mechanic is a) potentially interesting, b) obviously abusable in its basic form 17:25 wtf disconnect, did I miss anything? 17:26 what's the last you saw? 17:26 yes 17:26 <@ShivanHunter> also Evilhack's wiki page says that revenants only spawn in the Ice Queen's Realm, but there's a few here in Orcus town - bug or wrong wiki page? Also they should have rocket launchers 17:26 I was saying that I couldn't handle the floor below while also being a slime 17:26 we all voted to remove slex from the interwebz 17:26 <@riker> ais523 was talking about how he really loves the fleecy bundles though 17:26 you werent here to vote 17:26 <@riker> and was considering trying to get them into 3.7 17:26 K2 reaffirmed that he enjoys it when dogs die in his game 17:26 the last message I saw was the one about being a green slime and having to deal with soldiers I think? 17:27 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Vis (Arc Hum Mal Law) reached Mine Town, on T:2707 17:27 @ShivanHunter yeah... any .des file that has Z random spawn, revenants can spawn 17:27 [hdf-eu] [nh370] Vis (Arc Hum Mal Law), 1498 points, T:2712, killed by a bolt of fire 17:27 i kinda like that 17:27 amateurhour: prayer was out? 17:27 so i should remove that bit from the wiki 17:27 LarienTelrunya10: you mostly just missed the start of a balance discussion 17:27 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed the Master of Thieves, on T:20395 17:27 <@ShivanHunter> ahh, k 17:27 ais523: funny you should suggest that because carrying stuff is one of very few ways to exercise strength in ADOM 17:27 FIQ: actually, a thought that has come to me (as a result of this conversation) that any balance discussion in NetHack needs to start by identifying what the fundamental limitation on the player that drives them forward is 17:27 ais523: ah I see 17:27 say we want to reward players for going around burdened with higher STr 17:27 leading low-str players to intentionally burden themselves in order to exercise it 17:27 how do we prevent people from playing normally, then running around burdened for a few thousand turns? 17:28 LarienTelrunya10: does prayer even work as a spirit? every time I tried the god just laughed at me 17:28 I think there are multiple possible answers to this but they will fundamentally change the way the game works 17:28 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28 -!- LarienTelrunya10 is now known as LarienTelrunya 17:28 ais523: are players actually doing that? I thought in vanilla the main way to turbo-train strength is to push a boulder for a couple hundred turns 17:28 for example, is NetHack a game where a) you encounter obstacles too hard for you and then backtrack to grind some more? b) you move forward at all times and adjust your strategy so that you will be prepared for later levels, and cannot achieve anything useful by significant backtracking? 17:29 LarienTelrunya: probably not, it was a hypothetical example (that does actually work in current vanilla but that's coincidence) 17:29 but I tried to pick something that would be reasonable for a game to implement 17:29 amateurhour: weird, it should work? what was the particular message you were getting? 17:29 in NetHack, being burdened enough to exercise str is not a good idea 17:29 because it is a debilitating weakness 17:29 right, but even if you did choose to do it, there wouldn't be a tradeoff 17:30 <@riker> anybody here know what "mrg" is in objects.c (defined for tools, second arg of BITS) 17:30 because you can just do it on levels that you can go through easily 17:30 @riker stacking afaik 17:30 <@riker> there's like, 4 different devs chatting rn one of y'all has to know 17:30 @riker: whether multiple identical objects can merge into a single stack 17:30 <@riker> oh, "merge" 17:30 <@riker> neat 17:30 'How dare you contact me' or something idk Amy 17:30 <@riker> thanks 17:30 the two times I prayed both had that^ 17:30 IMHO the problem is not that the player can train strength by weight lifting or boulder pushing, but that it has too much of an impact, i.e. the regular strength training from just playing the game normally isn't high enough :P 17:31 amateurhour: ahh, you're undead and not chaotic, in that case your prayer can randomly fail, 50% if lawful and 10% if neutral I think? 17:31 ah. 17:31 oddly, this is actually a vanilla mechanic 17:31 although the exact effects of praying while undead may be different 17:31 ais523: in my current pathos playthrough, a) seems to be the way the game is balanced, and it is IMO the worst part of the game 17:31 IIRC in vanilla it's guaranteed to fail when lawful and also more likely than 10% if neutral 17:31 I very much prefer a game balanced around b) 17:32 I hate backtracking fwiw 17:32 <@ShivanHunter> ooooooh. Wiz towers are embedded in a Mines-like level now. I like 17:32 perhaps you might backtrack to go into a different branch or similar, but literally stalling because going forward is too hard is something the game shouldn't aspire to do IMO 17:32 :) 17:33 altar camping and polypiling are really boring for me as well 17:33 I can see an argument that the correct fix is just to remove downtime by making backtracking more dangerous 17:33 FIQ: do you know what I absolutely despise about vanilla? that you need to backtrack/stall/farm forever to be able to do the quest in vanilla which is something that you *have* to do because it's required to win the game! 17:33 yeah^ 17:33 ais523: one solution is to make corpses give next to no nutrition 17:33 I know dtsund was in favour of "first time bonuses" in levels that made the first trip through them easier 17:33 so you can still eat them for resistances, but they will not provide you with sustenance 17:33 LarienTelrunya: just continue with the game as normal beyond the quest, and visit it when you naturally become strong enough to do it 17:34 a few variants lowered the level req for the quest 17:34 shivanhunter: are you playing no genocide? 17:34 LarienTelrunya: yes, I reduced the XL requirement to 10 to allow you to realibly do it once you've cleared out castle 17:34 what and backtrack from deep in gehennom ais523?! 17:34 which usually brings you to around level 11-13 17:34 <@ShivanHunter> yep, pretty much always do 17:34 nice 17:34 I have weaponless going. F no geno in evil though lol 17:34 encounter an alhoon yet? 17:34 amateurhour: I think the game's balance should be such that you naturally hit quest entry by the end of Valley, if you haven't done so already 17:34 <@ShivanHunter> yep. He died 17:35 well that's good 17:35 <@ShivanHunter> ;) 17:35 (Y) 17:35 [hdf-us] [dnh] phaperplane2 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) wished for "a magic marker", on T:166533 17:35 if this is not the case, then the quest entry level might be worth changing 17:35 heh. why does there have to be such a level requirement at all (yeah I know I keep asking that). if it's supposedly "too difficult" to do the quest at, say, XL5, why can't I try anyway? if I die, my fault, but at least I'm not getting patronized by the game :P 17:35 ais523: you reach around 12-14 by the end of the valley 17:35 nethack is not my dad, I can go wherever I want to go! 17:35 assuming you don't do wraith-luring which is IMO a degenerate mechanic 17:35 yeah i'm watching your game. you are kicking ass. did you do the ice queen side branch? 17:35 FIQ: I normally reach 12 by Castle and 14 by Valley, I wonder if I somehow play in a way to gather more experience than most players do? 17:35 I died the last couple games there. she is no joke 17:36 actually a fix to that is to have a monster flag "generated in graveyard" 17:36 so you gain nothing from luring monsters away from them 17:36 ais523: in 3.6 with the changed MC mechanics, it's very easy to actually lose a few levels in the valley, further stalling progress toward XL14... 17:36 this is assuming no !oGL usage and no wraith-luring, but eating wraith corpses that naturally generate 17:36 but now there's an artifact bag and if my limited c knowledge is correct, a small chance of a marker? :: gasp :: 17:36 LarienTelrunya: oh, I can understand that, that may be a good reason to change Quest entry mechanics 17:37 …and the simplest fix would be a few guaranteed !oGL in the Valley, come to think of it 17:37 LarienTelrunya: iirc 4k's quest requirement is 1 or 14+ 17:37 I think this was mostly done to allow pacifists to do the Quest 17:37 FIQ: that's also totally annoying and arbitrary, no one stays at XL1 because you'll have like 14 max HP 17:37 FIQ: oh, I love that, although it would be a little hard to flavour 17:37 just lower it to 10 imo, why not 17:37 without having to fiddle with foocubi 17:37 my idea for entry to the quest: no exp requirement, you can go in whenever you like. but the lower your exp level, the higher the spawn rate and the tougher the monsters are (cap at exp level 14) 17:37 that sounds fun 17:37 LarienTelrunya: the usual pacifist is healer, which spawns with several healing potions 17:38 ^ that 17:38 with a bit of prayer strategy you can usually reach around 40 max HP 17:38 without getting a single level 17:38 people who dislike quest entry requirements: say we put three !oGL (BCU generated according to the normal algorithm) in a side area of the Valley, to what extent would that fix your concerns? 17:38 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) killed Geryon, on T:56429 17:38 FIQ: the cyclops will say "lol I just covetous warped to you and killed you in one hit lol because you're still XL1 and my weapon drains levels muahahahaha :P" 17:38 It sucks if you want your quest artifact for MR so you can do the castle, but you aren't 14 17:38 LarienTelrunya: 4k has several XL freebies 17:38 ais523: not at all, the game should never be streamlined like that 17:39 you can unlock the quest, backtrack to the Oracle and level up there 17:39 it'd be slightly less annoying than currently but rewards players who are 'usually' fine with a free 3 levels? 17:39 LarienTelrunya: how is that more streamliney than just allowing people in immediately? 17:39 sokoban also has a free level up 17:39 bear in mind that levels beyond 14 are mostly pointless 17:39 ais523: because it means everyone gets those potions; "fixing" a problem that wouldn't even have to exist otherwise by placing some guaranteed resources so the player can "circumvent" the problem... why not just fix the problem itself 17:39 ais523: not for spellcasters 17:40 magic missile scale of XL 17:40 FIQ: indeed 17:40 *scale by XL 17:40 the solution is to cure the source, not the symptoms! 17:40 or for monks where there's a few intrinsics 17:40 LarienTelrunya: we're disagreeing as to what the problem is, I see the problem as "maybe someone has no way other than grinding or going deep into Gehennom to unlock the quest, thus increasing backtracking" 17:40 also I view extra XLs as far from pointless, you get more HP and Pw and especially skill slots, of which you have very few in vanilla 17:41 skill slots almost never matters 17:41 huh? only wizards normally come anywhere near close to skill slot capping 17:41 right 17:41 to the extent that I see one of the major benefits of the wand balance patch as creating more skill slot competition and making the allocation more interesting 17:41 what if my samurai also wants to skill shuriken and polearms? maxing out long sword and dual-wielding already eats up all the skill slots I gain until XL12 or so 17:41 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha), 124189 points, T:11786, killed by a maid 17:42 that is not true 17:42 a samurai needs 8 skill points to max out long sword and two-weapon combat 17:42 no wait 17:42 6 17:42 long sword = 2 (from basic to skilled) + 3 (from skilled to expert), dual-wielding = 1 (from unskilled to basic) + 2 (from basic to skilled) + 3 (from skilled to expert) 17:42 that's 11 slots, which requires XL12 17:42 ? 17:43 it doesn't take 3 skill poitns from skilled to expert 17:43 *skillpoints 17:43 well I played enough samurai during junethack to remember that it took a loooooong time until I was finally able to max out both skills 17:43 **skill points 17:43 it costs 4 skill points to get from unskilled to expert, in 3.4.3 17:43 I just looked it up 17:43 ais523: yeah, and samurai has basic in both the above skills 17:43 so it takes 6 to max them out 17:43 -!- Menchers has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:43 3 from basic to expert 17:44 you have a number of skill slots equal to (level - 1), plus your starting skills don't count against this 17:44 also whose idea was it to make the weapon skills not train at all while dual-wielding :P I fixed that in slex 17:44 I don't remember if samurai has skill in shuriken or not but you'd be able to reach expert in all 3 skills by XL10-11 17:44 so at level 14, you have 13 additional skill slots on top of your starting skills 17:45 depending on whether they start at unskilled or basic in shuriken 17:45 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) polymorphed his first item, on T:9698 17:45 -Rodney- Samurai can achieve Expert skill in short swords, long swords, two-handed swords, bows, shuriken, and two-weapon combat. 17:45 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) killed Dispater, on T:56701 17:45 I think they start at unskilled 17:46 so 3+3+4, so they need to be xl11 to max out those three skills 17:46 and shuriken is so rare that you probably wont be able to max it out until you have the points for it anyway 17:46 ammo availability is something that hurts many of the weirder projectiles 17:46 ...that's not how it works, for weapons it definitely takes three to go from skilled to expert, which is ridiculous considering it adds all of +1 damage 17:47 no 17:47 it takes 2 17:47 It costs one skill slot to advance a weapon skill from Unskilled to Basic, two to go from Basic to Skilled, and three to go from Skilled to Expert. 17:47 source: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Skill 17:47 do you need me to wiztest this? the cost of 2 comes from a well-regarded 3.4.3 spoiler 17:47 1 from unskilled to basic, 1 from basic to skilled, 2 from skilled to expert, for a weapon skill 17:47 heh, I wish it was like you describe 17:48 or, hmm 17:48 it depends on the skill actually 17:48 ais523: 3.6.x might have changed this? 17:48 as I said, I played maaaaaaaany samurai during junethack. And I always groaned that I had to wait forever to finally max out my skills. 17:48 it is 1,2,3 for weapon skills, but 1,1,2 for fighting skills 17:48 sorry 17:48 fighting skill includes two-weapon combat 17:48 so I guess at XL10 I was maxed out, still felt like an eternity though 17:49 two-weaponing uses 1,2,3 anyway though despite that classification 17:49 maybe because you don't gain XP in vanilla :P (see also: unable to reach XL14 by normal play and need to grind) 17:49 LOL 17:49 <@riker> amy: dnh master race? 17:49 then I was actually maxed out at XL12 as I said 17:49 <@riker> re: xp 17:49 LarienTelrunya: vanilla Slash'EM uses a totally different XP formula from vanilla NetHacl 17:49 vanilla slash'em makes it unreasonably hard to get levels early 17:49 for no apparent reason 17:49 ais523: hahaha I've read the old document where it was explained why they deemed it a good idea to make early levels require twice as much XP 17:50 the "reason" sounds like it was written by a complete noob at the game 17:50 dnh's levelling is great 17:50 supposedly barbarians were too strong and therefore all classes got the shaft just because one class may have had too fast power growth 17:50 fh and xnh has the best level curve 17:50 @riker: not very familiar with that 17:51 <@riker> i'm suspicious of fiq supporting fiqhack's content 17:51 hmm 17:51 huh 17:51 in dnh you just play the game normally and... you still level up 17:51 dnh has changed its level curve 17:51 it used to be much easier to get XL30 17:52 @riker: think of it this way: if FIQ thought that a particular level curve were superior to FIQHack's, he would probably have changed FIQHack's to match it 17:52 max was 450k iirc 17:52 <@riker> that's true 17:52 now it's 1M 17:52 <@riker> fiq: i know i'ts gone through various revisions, i'm ok with where it is right now 17:52 same as slash'em but with not nearly as strange a formula 17:52 <@riker> i'ts doable to hit xp30 without quaffing by murderhoboing your way through the dungeon 17:52 in vanilla, levels past 16 or so have irrelevant XP requirements anyway, because you will nearly always reach them via some mechanism other than XP gain 17:52 these xp tables remind me of Pokémon 17:52 <@riker> but it's not unusual to not hit 30 if you don't wipe the alignment quests 17:53 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Experience_level#Total 17:53 Pokémon itself has changed XP mechanics frequently over the years 17:53 oh, the slex experience chart has changed since the last revision of that page actually 17:53 B2W2 probably has the most *fun* XP mechanics, it is feasible to grind a Pokémon to 80 or so within a few hours via giving it an Exp.Share and taking it into the hardest areas of White Treehollow 17:53 in having various formulas have wildly different numbers and some being better than others at different stages of the game 17:53 used to be that one would reach XL30 halfway through gehennom just by playing the game normally; I obviously fixed that 17:54 allthough fh/xnh is always strictly easier than vanilla 17:54 or equal 17:54 never harder 17:54 huh, vanilla's exp curve caps out at 100 million 17:54 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Vam Fem Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2165 17:54 no wonder noboady ever gets there via exp grinding 17:55 <@riker> ok, no wonder 17:55 <@riker> yeah 17:55 <@riker> dnh adds like double the things to kill and it's plausible to not reach 1M? lol 17:55 high-level monsters just give too little experience lol, even a Demogorgon only gives about 3k?! would need to kill hundreds of thousands of Demogorgons to reach XL30 17:56 as in, having an ice box full of cockatrice corpses and infinite mana for stone to flesh :P 17:56 FIQ: related to the earlier "backtrack to grind" discussion, one thing I think NetHack /does/ do well is to give you the tools to run away and try again upon encountering an unexpected/unprecedented situation 17:56 -!- rebatela has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:56 [backscroll] I disagree with the premise that the "normal" game progression should be to complete the valley before being allowed into the quest. (Though with fiqhack/xnh exp curve, you'll almost certainly be 14 by then) 17:56 this is one of the few ways in which it's kind to unspoiled players, and I think it does much better than many of its competitors in that regard 17:57 dcss orc priests 17:57 xnh drops the quest XL threshold to 10, my reason being that if you're underleveled and get yourself killed, well maybe you should have waited rather than charging in 17:57 aosdict: you can also, e.g. spend a wish on gain level to get entry if you want to do so earlier 17:57 if you're always allowed in, there's no strategy and no tradeoffs, if your quest is easy you just do it immediately 17:57 will almost certainly kill you several times until you realize how they work 17:57 no one will spend a wish when there are lurable wraiths 17:57 (or someone tells you) 17:57 because the quest artifact is so broken 17:58 ais523: quest redesign is a component here 17:58 FIQ: let me guess, they work like Sigmund, in that when you encounter them at their natural depth you either run away and don't come back for a looooong time or you're dead? :P 17:58 FIQ: huh, I didn't think they were necessary a spoiler issue (there are plenty of things in DCSS that are) 17:58 if a quest is easy enough that you can do it at any level, it should be made less easy 17:58 I think the quest artifact being broken is very much intentional 17:58 a big component of that IMO is blocking levelport to quest floors you haven't yet visited 17:58 LarienTelrunya: they have smite targeting and their damage is just as fun as dcss damage in general is 17:58 aosdict: I can buy that the quests should be made hard enough that players can't do them at typical quest entry depth, if that were the case then removing the entry barrier would make sense 17:58 not quite exploding dice, but almost as bad 17:59 FIQ: isn't the fact that they have a ranged attack (if not smite-targetting in general) fairly obvious from the messages? 17:59 ais523: the problem is the damage 17:59 they'll spend 5 attacks doing like 2-3 damage 17:59 then suddenly one hit does 20 17:59 ah right 17:59 this is a problem with almost everything that damages you in DCSS though 17:59 ais523: I like XL 10 because it still preserves the leader preventing you from going in when you're obviously underprepared, but you'll generally hit 10 by Medusa in a standard game 17:59 the damage formula is about as unspoiled-player-unfriendly as possible 17:59 FIQ: heh yeah, you just get turbokilled by that spam, and unlike the ranged attacks a player would typically have at that depth, it goes through their buddies and is guaranteed to hit you 18:00 ais523: and the problem is that yo ucan't easily run away 18:00 once you've decided to pursue them 18:00 because they did like no damage 18:00 like, the orc priest behind his 20 orc warriors can still smite you whenever he wants to, but if you try to shoot back with something it just hits one of those cannon fodder guys 18:00 DCSS has a perennial problem with the balance of running away 18:00 it is intended to be a major tactic that players use, but it is hard to prevent it either being too weak or too strong 18:01 it's IMO the worst part of the game 18:01 the focus dcss puts on running away I mean 18:01 it's also one of the major things that turned me off DCSS; I don't like having to run away from threats as a matter of course, I find it to be unfun gameplay 18:01 it's just not fun IMO to constantly run away 18:01 and pick on targets one by one 18:01 it slows the game down to a.. well, crawl 18:01 some of the biggest fun I've had in DCSS was when a unique spawned immediately inside the entry staircase to Lair 18:01 in DCSS I can also never tell whether I can handle a given monster or not, so in the case of doubt I'm running away from monsters until there is nowhere left to run to and then I get killed 18:02 which is one of the few places where there is one staircase rather than three, and thus the usual tactic of simply running away and using a different staircase was unavailable 18:02 and is the main reason I never play casters in dcss 18:02 despite them usually being my favorite way ot play 18:02 because it ramps the running away bit even more 18:02 *ramps up 18:02 *to play 18:02 also running away can wake up more mobs and if my DCSS char can't handle a single adder/yak/gnoll/whatever then how the hell am I supposed to handle half a dozen? 18:02 LarienTelrunya: I'm not used to agreeing with you about a lot of things, but I definitely agree with you on this one, it's something I used to complaining at the Crawl devs repeatedly about 18:02 and they just dismissed me on the basis that "Crawl is less spoiler-dependent than NetHack" 18:03 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 1465 points, T:2121, killed by a killer bee 18:03 ...what? I wish there were good spoilers for crawl because since I don't know any, I just won't ever get good because from my experience I just get killed by random garbage monsters 18:03 (with respect to not being able to tell whether you can handle a given monster) 18:04 maybe it's just me having grown up on nethack where there's a wiki that has all the info; in DCSS, I have no grip on how good or bad skills are, or the importance (or lack thereof) of skill levels, enchantment values etc. 18:04 ais523: speaking of spoilers, one thing I considered was adding a brogue-like "avg/min/max hits to kill" to monsters 18:04 assuming full HP 18:05 "oh, I have a +7 dagger, that gnoll should be a piece of cake... wtf I died??? and my dagger still misses more often than it hits?" 18:05 that's what DCSS feels like to me 18:05 FIQ: that's hard to figure out because NetHack's weaponry is much more complicated than Brogue's, but something like that would be worthwhile if the information were useful 18:05 LarienTelrunya: dcss' worst offense by far is the inconsistent damage 18:05 Crawl has/had a spoilerbot but I can't remember how to use it 18:05 [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Arc Hum Mal Neu) averted death, on T:2604 18:06 it works the same as Pinobot iirc 18:06 @v?hill orc 18:06 hill orc (o) | Lvl: 2 | Diff: 4 | Spd: 9 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: gehennom dungeons | AC: 10 | Attacks: 1d6 weapon physical | Alignment: -4 | Flags: genocidable, omnivore, infravisible 18:06 yes, a pinobot-alike 18:06 one problem is that there were three main Crawl bots and they kept changing which of them did what 18:06 so I can't even rememer which bot I have to query 18:07 also, wow hill orcs have terrible stats 18:07 I don't remember them ever having been a problem, that is probably why 18:08 hmm, never really felt that inconsistent damage, I just felt that in DCSS the player character's power growth is so slow compared to the monster's that I ultimately just get killed by something far too strong for me 18:08 anyway I really should go to bed now, night guys! 18:09 o/ 18:09 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 18:09 <@riker> peace amy 18:11 hmm, let's frame the question differently: suppose a NetHack player goes into a difficult area unprepared, loses much of their HP quickly, then levports back to the early Dungeons to escape 18:11 <@riker> i've done that 18:11 from the perspective of "what would lead to the most fun game balance", what happens next? 18:12 I'm not sure I know the answer, but this feels like an important question to have the answer to 18:12 ais523: weapon attacks add the damage bonus of their weapon too 18:12 I don't know what they usually spawn with but they do more than just 1d6 18:14 ah right 18:14 it took me a while to figure out the context, but you were talking about hill orcs 18:16 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) killed the invisible Demogorgon, on T:57784 18:17 <@riker> nice shivanhunter 18:17 ais523: the likely thing the player DOES is to start backtracking back down through the dungeon knowing that their natural regen will have them topped up by the time they get back to the threat 18:17 then they'll be able to take a more considered approach to the threat 18:17 <@ShivanHunter> would have been a lot easier if he didn't heal so quickly 18:17 in practice some players might return to their stash 18:17 <@ShivanHunter> still rekt him though 18:18 if there are unvisited branches, this would be a good time to do them, I guess 18:18 is it worth looking for more items? my guess would be no 18:18 in vanilla, there is unlikely to be significant danger on the route back; there will be many monsters encountered but they are likely to be trivial to defeat 18:19 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) had Ogresmasher bestowed upon him by Kos, on T:11317 18:19 I have done what aosdict said above most of the time 18:20 the stash is something that I hadn't thought of, and this is one of the better arguments I've seen in favour of stashing 18:20 considering how most players seem to not want to venture much beyond level 10 until they've completed both the mines and sokoban (unless they already have a luckstone, really hate sokoban, e.g. not planning on completing them) 18:21 I don't think the likelihood of unvisited branches is high 18:21 I agree with aosdict here 18:21 I think this is possibly a mistake in the current branch structure 18:22 how would you have it differ? 18:22 I think it might be preferable to have a shorter main dungeon but more branches, especially in Gehennom 18:22 that's an idea 18:22 we all know gehennom is awful 18:22 ideally with the difficulty progression if you go "straight down" being too fast, but levelled out somewhat if you use the side branches 18:23 (this is something that DCSS almost gets right) 18:24 best gehennom I've seen so far is dnh's 18:25 another thought experiment: suppose you clear Gehennom backwards (i.e. start by levporting to the VS level, then progress through Gehennom bottom to top) 18:25 is there any appreciable difference from doing it the normal way? should there be? 18:25 ais523, I do that sometimes with the amulet 18:25 and no, there's not a huge difference 18:26 except for like Rodney showing up from time to time 18:27 (strictly speaking some bits have to be done first in order to invoke but you get what i mean) 18:27 i regularly skip loads on the way down 18:27 I guess a side question is: what, if anything, is the benefit from actually visiting Gehennom levels pre-invocation? 18:27 very little 18:27 imo 18:27 the only things I can think of offhand are locating the invocaiton artifacts 18:27 Orcus level can be useful 18:27 and yeah the invocation artifacts of course 18:28 some of the other demon levels have nice loot but it's loot you can also collect on the way up 18:28 they're often good for a few scrolls and pots 18:28 Orcus is extra loot heavy if you geno m 18:30 I rarely do it in practice, but it can be rewarding 18:30 I think the mysterious force is meant to be one of the main incentives to "pre-clear" Gehennom, because it lets you find and clear short routes from stairway to stairway 18:31 but it probably isn't good enough at this and players hate it for other reasons 18:31 if you have enough magic mapping and digging wands it makes not one iota of difference 18:31 digging wands are usually plentiful 18:32 magic mapping sometimes not so much 18:32 oh! that's the reason to clear Gehennom 18:32 for the digging wands 18:32 they're much more common in there than outside 18:32 even without clearing gehennom I end up with loads of digging wands by the time im doing the asc run 18:32 and i find more on the way up 18:32 so i still don't buy it 18:32 hmm, I normally find only just enough for the way I play 18:32 like, I'm often down to one digging wand by the time I reach the Planes 18:33 -!- VaderFLAG has joined #hardfought 18:33 oh yeah i'll end up using them all up 18:33 but i rarely feel like I haven't got enough 18:33 i just use them more heavily the more i have 18:35 I guess that digging paths and locating digging wands happen at approximately the same rate whether you're doing it on the way down or on the asc run 18:35 exactly 18:35 so the only actual benefit to pre-exploration is finding the stairs 18:35 (something which can alternatively be done using magic mapping effects) 18:35 which is painstaking and annoying 18:36 so I prefer to map if I can, whether I'm going up or down 18:36 now the benefit of doing it in *reverse* is you can L map 18:36 that doesn't work on the way down 18:36 but if you have purp-Ls and telepathy 18:36 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 1172 points, T:2020, killed by a giant spider 18:36 easy stair finding 18:36 on the way down, you only have to map every second level 18:36 hmm true 18:36 because you can stair dip to find the other end of the stairs, and dig down even without knowing where the downstairs are 18:36 and many players hate L so much they geno them 18:37 so L mapping is out 18:37 yeah, that's a big saving in scrolls, to be fair 18:37 i normally start by levporting to potential Vladstair levels and map each of those completely 18:37 or each one until I find vladstair 18:37 oh right, Vlad stairs 18:38 you can easily miss those if you only map every second level 18:38 but that's only a small section that has to be mapped per-level 18:38 the rest you can do your trick no problem 18:38 …maybe the game would benefit from some sort of branch-stairs locator 18:38 also re L mapping it's not something to count on 18:39 just saves you the occasional scroll when there *are* purp-Ls around to show you the way 18:39 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 18:40 tho sometimes you can get a few levels out of the same purp-L since they might run away 18:40 they also might do nasty stuff and curse your gear but hey 18:40 that's the price you pay for free mapping 18:40 amateurhour: I agree on dnh having the best Gehennom in the game 18:40 er, across variants 18:41 clairvoyance is also great for the asc run when you haven't already mapped everything 18:41 if you have, it's a bit redundant 18:41 tho it triggers randomly so it's not the most reliable tool 18:41 what makes d's Gehennom good? 18:42 I'm not experienced with it 18:42 in 3.4.3 there's an exploit to remove the random triggering 18:42 I can't remember if this got fixed for 3.6 18:43 I remember fixing it in something but it was probably NH4 18:43 ais523: instead of a million mazes, it first has 5 much smaller mazes in a circle level ("the endless staircase"), wiztower, demon1, fakewiz1, demon2, fakewiz2, demon3, asmo, VS 18:43 the "demonN" are sets of pools with a random demon lord and demon level 18:43 so no dnh run is the same 18:43 oh, so it's basically very short and has only the special levels? 18:43 and they range from fine to really scary 18:43 and most/all demon lords provide a different set of challenge 18:44 s 18:44 ah right 18:44 ais523: more or less 18:44 but what I really like is the replayability 18:44 there's a *ton* of demon lords, and none is alike 18:44 yeah each time I made it through it went completely differently 18:44 OK, I can see why that would be a good thing 18:44 and you're strongly encouraged to figure out how to _avoid_ the demon lords where possible 18:44 including on the way up? 18:44 that bit i dont like 18:44 some of them are almost unbeatable 18:44 yes 18:44 ais523, yeah I was about to ask, whether they fixed the walking into walls hack for clairvoyance 18:45 it's so dynamic, really great fun 18:45 not only is dnh not the worst part of the game, it's IMO arguably the *best* 18:45 *dnh gehennom 18:45 yeah 18:46 i gotta try dnh gehennom 18:46 dnh is an absolute blast honestly 18:46 <@riker> its an experience 18:46 ais523: the endless staircase is the only part of Gehennom that has the mysterious force, and while I still dislike the MF as a concept, it's not nearly as bad as a result, and gives it its own gimmick without actively making the game much worse 18:46 gotta have a go at that android i got saved 18:47 <@riker> some of the charm is lost once you start having dreams about the secret doors being in the wrong places 18:47 <@riker> but the lairs are generally pretty cool 18:47 lamashtu's lair is a bit evil... 18:47 <@riker> locking makes it trivial 18:47 I forgot which one lamashtu was 18:47 if you know what you're doing ahead of time 18:48 the one with a similar level to demogorgon? 18:48 <@riker> demo's tower, but has 2 open drawbridges each on the north / south sides, so you have to zap across them to lock them 18:48 <@riker> yes 18:48 right 18:48 I remember now 18:48 if you're an amateur and it's currently amateur hour lamashtu is rather evil, heh 18:48 <@riker> brown colorscheme, rest of the level is mazewalked floor & corridor 18:48 you used to be able to dig past everything 18:48 because chris messed it up :P 18:48 <@riker> you can still phase through the bottom 18:48 <@riker> lol 18:49 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) attained the rank of Pilferer, on T:11827 18:53 -!- aoei has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:56 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 dragonhide T-shirt", on T:59010 18:58 <@ShivanHunter> hmm... only -68 AC :/ 18:59 <@ShivanHunter> It's okay-ish but it'd be nice to get it lower 18:59 <@riker> go for 69 18:59 you could have added an object property to that 18:59 <@ShivanHunter> ohhh, forgot about that 18:59 <@ShivanHunter> most object properties in evil are pretty meh though 18:59 <@riker> drain res? 18:59 drain resistance is a popular choice 18:59 ^ not meh 19:00 <@ShivanHunter> ah, I could have done that 19:00 <@riker> YASI: you can wrap t-shirts around your hands to make a temporary pair of gloves, preventing you from being stoned by touching a c corpse 19:00 <@riker> or punching a c directly i suppose 19:00 or a towel 19:01 [hdf-us] [nh343] pavelek (Mon Hum Mal Cha), 20573 points, T:6827, killed by a giant beetle, while frozen by a monster's gaze 19:01 a dragonhide towel of excellence 19:02 <@ShivanHunter> still wondering about going for glass GoP since these iron ones are wrecking some of my spell failure rates 19:02 but the towel can get dirty and contaminate food 19:02 [hdf-eu] [slex] amateurhour (Mon Esp Mal Law) killed the monk of amateurhour, the former Student of Stones, on T:3273 19:03 <@riker> k2: dragonhide t-shirt of fire and excellence 19:03 <@riker> it's just a flaming rag wrapped around your hands, but it's an excellent one 19:03 @ShivanHunter, go for either bone, wood or stone 19:04 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Vam Fem Cha), 66626 points, T:8332, died of starvation 19:05 <@riker> bone is clearly the most badass option here 19:06 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 bone gauntlets of power", on T:59047 19:06 <@ShivanHunter> \m/ 19:06 <@riker> got the +3? 19:06 <@ShivanHunter> nooope 19:06 <@ShivanHunter> but I have tons of enchant armor scrolls 19:08 <@ShivanHunter> hmmmmm. I could use a small shield now... it puts FoD at 11% fail... idk 19:08 <@ShivanHunter> it's all 0% otherwise and that's niiice 19:08 <@ShivanHunter> but my AC D: 19:09 <@ShivanHunter> gotta say, putting together an ascension kit in evilhack is way more interesting than vanilla, where there's like 2 valid builds 19:11 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Val Dwa Fem Law), 524 points, T:1004, killed by a giant spider 19:16 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:14883 19:19 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha), 4653 points, T:2339, killed by a dwarf lord zombie 19:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) attained the rank of Thaumaturge, on T:3132 19:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 1705 points, T:3182, killed by a jaguar 19:24 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 19:24 darn it. I was waiting to get some tobacco before i made the ascension run, and I was able to do that, but now my cat has escaped 19:25 RL cat not the faithful one I murder all the time... 19:25 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Val Dwa Fem Law) entered Sokoban, on T:1202 19:25 :( 19:25 i guess I will watch shivanhunter play and wait for her return lol 19:26 my knucklehead friend let her out accidentally... but she always comes back 19:26 <@ShivanHunter> lol oh no D: I'm about to start making pizza and contemplating the ascension run 19:26 -75 AC huh: 19:26 ? 19:26 you're OP for sure lol 19:26 <@ShivanHunter> yeah, need moar AC :P 19:26 I do crazy damage with martial arts grand master because I swallowed some increase damage rings... 19:27 <@ShivanHunter> I'm at that spot where I think I've got everything ready, but I have no idea what I might not be anticipating 19:27 <@riker> have fun when the first monster you see cancels that 19:27 ate a lot of protection rings and guarding amulets too, but got nothing because i had already gotten a bunch of divine protection 19:27 <@ShivanHunter> oh! wait there's a new dungeon branch in Evil isn't there 19:27 <@ShivanHunter> where is that 19:27 yes 19:27 i was asking you about that 19:27 it's level before medusa 19:27 ice queen is tough 19:27 i've died a couple times there 19:27 but you'll be finew 19:28 <@ShivanHunter> imma go check it out then :D 19:28 [hdf-eu] [nh370] blinkleo (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 545 points, T:2462, killed by a gnome, while frozen by a trap 19:28 I charmed all the pets (there's a woolymammoth or two to ride...) and let them clear evwerything out 19:28 i'm 'assuming you know charm ? 19:28 <@ShivanHunter> yep 19:28 just make sure you are flying 19:28 <@ShivanHunter> illithid :D 19:28 if you are on ice and someone zaps fire = game ovwer 19:28 oh that's right :) 19:28 ride the wollymammoth if you can 19:28 they are badass 19:29 and ther's an artifact bag of holding there 19:29 <@ShivanHunter> oooooooooh I forgot about that 19:29 (and from source diving, a 10% chance of a MARKER) 19:29 <@ShivanHunter> 1/6 weight instead of 1/4 19:29 somewthign likeo that 19:29 <@ShivanHunter> :O 19:29 and it's supposed to grant MC 1 but doesn't currently unless wielded... 19:29 that's why i wished for gauntlets of protection 19:30 it's a fun level, but just be careful when you get to her 19:30 nasty spells 19:30 do you have acid resistance 19:30 ? 19:30 i was riding a wooly mamoth with a titan for pet (from medusa level ) for most of the game 19:31 and then I was riding thew pegasus that is there and is tameable 19:31 <@ShivanHunter> no acid res 19:31 she hurt me for like 100hp real quick 19:31 just be aware, and you'll be fine 19:31 I highly recommend charming things. It worked really well for me 19:32 <@ShivanHunter> yeah charm monster is OP even at level 5 19:32 shhhhhhhh 19:32 don't finish the ice queen off with a multiattack spell like fireball ShivanHunter 19:32 something that could kill her then hit her again 19:32 <@ShivanHunter> oh right, she's supposed to turn peaceful right? and like level 99999 19:32 not sure if bouncing magic missile counts for that 19:32 <@riker> she turns peaceful and gets substantially more swole 19:32 I try not to even discuss strategy on here somtiems lol because fear of it getting nerfed 19:32 evil K2 detects unsanctioned fun is occurring and removes it :^) 19:32 it's a fun branch, shivan .we shouldn't even be spoiling it for you 19:33 i dont nerf fun. i fix bugs 19:33 yeah, just avoid multiattacks and know that it can be rather dangerous and you'll be fine 19:34 need to figure out how to prevent a multi attack from making her angry 19:35 <@riker> safe to assume the only multiattacks would be spells, right? 19:35 what happens with multishot arrows etc? 19:35 i think aosdict suggested something like she shouldnt transform until the attack is over but i dunno how to do that 19:35 <@riker> hm true amateurhour 19:35 amateurhour same thing would prob happen 19:35 bounced magic missile? 19:35 same 19:36 <@riker> @K2 easiest way i can think of is to set her hp to a specific number or smth (like, give her 9999 hp/maxhp) and check for that in allmain.c 19:36 <@riker> when she "dies" 19:36 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1474 points, T:2172, killed by a lizard, while frozen by a monster's gaze 19:36 <@riker> if her maxhp is now 9999, then treat it as if you killed her & proceed with healing koa/ozzy & making her groovy with you 19:37 her transformation is triggered in mondead() though 19:37 <@riker> that's an easy enough thing to copy-paste out of mondead 19:37 <@riker> i'm looking at it right now 19:37 <@riker> lemme test some things.. 19:37 k 19:37 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:17807 19:39 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) killed the Abominable Snowman, on T:60093 19:41 @riker there are some recent commits, you'll wanna pull again 19:41 <@riker> ty 19:41 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:44 <@riker> is it possible to lure kathryn the ice queen off the level? 19:45 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Val Dwa Fem Law), 373 points, T:1154, killed by a sewer rat 19:49 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 19:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v ais523] by ChanServ 19:50 need to figure out how to prevent a multi attack from making her angry ← just delay the pacifying until the end of the turn 19:50 <@riker> ais: where's the easiest place to put that? 19:50 <@riker> testing in dochug right now 19:51 -!- TheGigaBrain has joined #hardfought 19:51 ais523: would encoding a dice value as an int to make specifying variable damage easier be a bad idea? 19:51 FIQ: what sort of encoding are you thinking of? 19:51 @riker: trying to work it out now 19:51 let's say with weapons for example 19:52 you want, say, a 2d4 weapon 19:52 currently these cases need to be handled specifically as a special case in dmgval 19:52 which not everything uses, and which uses ugly hacks to "undo" double damage and similar shenanigans 19:52 one option is to simply add another parameter to objects.c 19:52 <@riker> fiq: thoughts on storing a struct of dmg instead? dnh stores them as 19:52 but I think maybe a better solution would be to encode it as a single data type 19:52 <@riker> #define DMG__(ocn, ocd, bonn, bond, flat) ({ocn, ocd, bonn, bond, flat, 0, 0, 0}) 19:53 which can be used elsewhere as well 19:53 what is bonn and bond 19:53 [hdf-us] [evil] ShivanHunter (Wiz Ith Mal Cha) defeated the invisible Kathryn the Ice Queen, on T:60441 19:53 oh I get it 19:53 so you can do like 2d3+4d3-4 for example? 19:54 @riker: my suggestion would be to allow the Ice Queen to die as normal, but to set some sort of flag on her monster struct when she dies; then resurrect her + make her peaceful in or immediately before dmonsfree() 19:54 <@riker> :/ what's the best flag to use for that purpose? 19:54 doing it inside would have more robust properties if a hangup save happens mid-attack 19:54 @riker yeah this is probably the ideal solution 19:54 <@riker> i'm assuming mid is a bad thing to change? 19:54 if you need more complicated damage formulas than this, you're doing something wrong 19:54 <@riker> fiq: yes, that's probably the weirdest dnh gets for damage bonuses in there 19:54 -!- TheGigaBrain has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:55 mid isn't supposed to have duplicates, but apart from that changing it in a running game won't hurt 19:55 <@riker> weapon.c has other ones (mostly for charged weapons and some artis) 19:55 because its main purpose is to handle save file encoding 19:55 and you can have macros like d(n,d) 19:55 for the usual case 19:55 that said, it might possibly be used for something else, because this is NetHack 19:55 <@riker> fiq, i don't condone but you may want to look at nero's macromagic 19:55 <@riker> it's worth noting that change made obj.c go from like a 10s compile time to around 35s for me :/ 19:56 @riker that makes no sense 19:56 monst.c already uses like a million macros 19:56 <@riker> variable argument ones? 19:56 <@riker> that translate into MORE macros? 19:56 -!- TheGigaBrain has joined #hardfought 19:56 <@riker> but yeah it adds D([n, ]d) and F(n) as macros i think 19:56 ah personally I solved that by just having 4 macros 19:56 macros that translate into more macros is common 19:56 for monst.c 19:57 MON, FMON, AMON, AFMON 19:57 <@riker> https://github.com/Chris-plus-alphanumericgibberish/dNAO/blob/devel-3.19.2/include/macromagic.h 19:57 -!- TheGigaBrain has quit [Client Quit] 19:57 -!- TheGigaBrain has joined #hardfought 19:57 FIQ: I have no object to the concept of some sort of "damage formula" data type; however, I am not convinced that complex damage formulas are useful 19:57 <@riker> i'm not even sure how that works but it's evil 19:57 MON is the standard, FMON has a female name too, AMON has a custom HP/Pw gain per level 19:58 AFMON is just both combined 19:58 <@riker> yeah, dnh has that for monsters with different DR rules 19:58 <@riker> mostly in the LVL macros 19:58 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 19:59 <@riker> lvl, lvl with natural DR, level with dex bonus to AC, level with special dr iirc, lvl with all of those 19:59 <@riker> or something like that 19:59 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 19:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v ais523] by ChanServ 19:59 @riker: that header file is silly because __VA_ARGS__ is C99, in which case you could be using designated initializers for the same purpose 19:59 [hdf-us] [nh370] Frozty (Kni Hum Mal Law) averted death, on T:42051 19:59 struct mythingA = {.name="name", .flags=0x8|0x1}; 20:00 ais523: anyway the reason I was considering this (but I think @riker's solution is better) is because I was considering a centralized object for the purpose of damage 20:00 unless I've misunderstood what it does, which given how chaotic it is, is entirely possible 20:00 <@riker> fiq, i 100% condone the course of action of "merge obj damage into the obj def", but i'm open to cleaner solutions if they exist 20:00 that contains damage amount (using this type or struct as discussed), where it came from (object, monster, trap, breath, possibly several of these at once) 20:00 and similar 20:00 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Cha) was given the Garnet Rod, on T:2624 20:01 <@riker> (dnh also ended up with a function in weapon.c that just returns the damage breakdown, for inspection purposes) 20:01 FIQ: can one damage structure contain multiple instances of damage? or does each have its own structure? 20:01 one damage structure contains one instance of damage 20:01 I can imagine splitting, say, a d6+d4 weapon into two damage structures, one listing d6, one listing d4 20:02 ais523: I think in those cases I'd much prefer the suggestion @riker had 20:02 #define FILL(...) FIRSTFOUR(dummy, ##__VA_ARGS__, 0, 0, 0, 0) ← this is a gcc extension, it isn't portable 20:02 <@ShivanHunter> well, the Ice Queen was easier than I expected, but then again I have -75 AC :P All in all a pretty cool dungeon branch 20:02 with a 5-parameter struct -- 2 sets of damN, damD and a flat modifier 20:02 a 3rd set should never be needed 20:02 that also seems reasonable 20:02 and if I ever need it, I'd probably end up considering an array instead 20:03 but it should be unneccessary 20:03 that said, I'm not sure what sort of balance decision would need to draw a distinction between, say, d4+d12 and 2d8 20:03 ais523: this was purely for the purpose of improving code quality 20:03 they are different formulas, but they're not different enough for that level of fine balancing to be needed, I'd guess 20:03 <@riker> what is mtmp->mid normally like? 20:03 what I wanted to do, mainly, was to eventually go over to using callbacks instead of huge switch tables for most things 20:04 @riker: mtmp->m_id? it's an arbitrary positive integer, which gets higher for monsters that were generated later 20:04 and is different for each monster 20:04 it may have been mid without the underscore in 3.4.3 20:04 -!- TheGigaBrain has left #hardfought 20:04 it's m_id in fiqhack 20:04 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) wished for "blessed fixed greased +2 grey dragon scale mail", on T:2398 20:04 @ShivanHunter, thanks 20:04 and I highly doubt I changed it 20:04 <@riker> so there's no real magic cookie to set it to easily to prove that we killed the ice queen 20:04 so it was probably m_id in 3.4.3 too 20:04 @riker what are you trying to do? 20:05 when the game wants to track a /particular/ monster (such as the starting pet), it stores the m_id in a variable to record that 20:05 <@riker> actually, wait, i think i could just check mvitals for the ice queen 20:05 ^ I think this is what it does with Rodney 20:05 ice queen is a unique, so... 20:05 <@riker> ^ 20:05 afaik the game doesn't care about the starting pet at all 20:05 if she has a unique permonst, you can just check that 20:06 FIQ: huh, 3.7 has an is_starting_pet macro, and the code supporting it, but doesn't use it for anything 20:06 @riker what are you trying to do out of curiousity? 20:06 so it doesn't care, but still tracks it for some reason 20:06 <@riker> [4:34 PM] K2: need to figure out how to prevent a multi attack from making her angry 20:06 ais523: perhaps the idea was to track if you ascended with your starting pet? 20:07 FIQ: trying to make it so that the ice queen doesn't become hostile due to being hit by multiple attacks in the same turn 20:07 some variants do iirc 20:07 <@riker> when the ice queen dies, she's revived peaceful as a different monster, whihc you do'nt want to aggro 20:07 why would a multi-attack make her hostile any more than a single attack would? 20:07 oh 20:07 oh :) 20:07 she gets revived by the first hit, becomes pacified, then the second hit aggroes her 20:07 when a monster dies, you stop attacking it further 20:08 FIQ: even after a lifesave in mondied()? 20:08 this is true even if LS iirc, let me double check 20:08 the transformation for the ice queen currently occurs in mondead() 20:09 FIQ: for AoE code like explode(), it's hard to see how the attack could stop after one monster dies 20:09 because it might need to hit others 20:09 -!- j6p has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:09 does the revived ice queen use the same permonst as the original? 20:09 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2908 20:10 if not, it should be as simple as a permonst check in dmonsfree() to remove the "monster dead" flag (mhp == 0), and do the other changes you want 20:10 ok I just checked 20:10 <@riker> ais: no, it doesn't 20:10 a two-weapon hit does not proc the 2nd hit if the monster dies and lifesave after 1 hit 20:10 but you're right wrt explode 20:10 FIQ: what if the first weapon is Cleaver? 20:10 and rays 20:10 (asking because this conversation might have uncovered a potential vanilla bug) 20:10 <@riker> multi-hit projectiles? 20:11 <@riker> multi-hit projectiles? 20:11 <@riker> *multishot 20:11 <@riker> *multishot 20:11 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Val Dwa Fem Law) entered Sokoban, on T:1961 20:12 cleaver does not stop 20:12 in fiqhack at least 20:12 wiki suggests it doesn't stop for multishot 20:12 and I think 3.6's cleaver just stole fiqhack's code 20:13 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Multishot 20:13 so it should work the same 20:13 oh right, cleaver is two-handed 20:13 yep 20:13 I was wondering what would happen to the offhand weapon in this case 20:13 but there can't be one 20:13 indeed 20:13 @riker anyway, I see what you mean 20:14 I think the solution here is to give the IQ invulnerability after the initial resurrection for that turn only 20:14 gameplaywise 20:14 code-wise you could just check for this flag 20:14 I don't think monsters have an invulnerability flag in d? 20:14 in setmangry 20:15 ais523: they don't 20:15 but either way you need to change code basically everywhere 20:15 since monsters doesn't have a centralized losehp like players do 20:15 *monsters don't 20:15 the flag that's normally used for this sort of thing is age, but that only exists for objects, not monsters 20:15 so I figured it wouldn't be a major issue to add 20:15 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Cha) was given the Arkenstone, on T:3333 20:15 you can then use it for other things later 20:15 such as making monsters able to pary 20:15 *pray 20:16 FIQ: how would being invulnerable help? the act of being attacked makes her angry 20:16 K2: well, allowing you to hurt her after resurrection sounds like a bad mechanic either way 20:17 so 1: add the flag, 2: then check in all cases where you cause monsters damage for this flag 20:17 in fact 20:17 I ought to add mlosehp in fiqhack 20:17 hmm 20:17 the fact that monsters' HP is just modified directly is dumb 20:17 and leads to a million if cases 20:17 all over the place 20:17 if you want a spare flag, mlstmv should be usable for this purpose 20:17 "if monster is dead: handle it" 20:18 rather than just if (monster hp loss led to death): handle it 20:18 at least with 3.7's mlstmv handling; 3.4.3's might be a bit harder 20:18 it's silly boilerplate 20:18 FIQ: part of the reason for this is that there are multiple monster death codepaths depending on whose fault the death was 20:19 and, to some extent, what caused the death 20:19 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 488 points, T:912, killed by a hobbit 20:19 mongone just removes a monster entirely, mondead handles death+lifesaving but not other consequences, mondied handles corpses and so on, killed is used for kills by the player 20:20 ais523: well, currently basically every single place handling monster damage works something like this: 20:20 a centralised mlosehp would require a number of flags to handle fault and leaving corpses and so on 20:20 mhp -= N; if mhp <= 0: mondied(mon) 20:20 it would still be preferable, but merging all the monster HP loss codepaths wouldn't be trivial 20:20 FIQ: not always mondied, though, the actual function that's called changes 20:21 ais523: fault is easy, just check flags.mon_moving 20:21 oh, monstone also appears to bypass the normal death handling 20:21 that is almost never wrong 20:21 and you can handle the one-offs seperately 20:21 FIQ: monster walks into a landmine laid by the player 20:21 "almost never" :) 20:22 in general, mon_moving checks tend to really bother me, I feel like there must be lots of cases where it gives the wrong answer 20:22 basically I'd just add a flag for "don't handle monster death in mlosehp" 20:22 and handle those cases seperately 20:22 ais523: in fiqhack I actually extended it 20:22 so that flags.mon_moving is actually a monster ID 20:22 or 0 for the player 20:22 oh, that seems like an improvement 20:22 that way I can credit other monsters for indirect deaths 20:23 do we credit the player if their steed kills a monster? 20:23 no 20:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) attained the rank of Thaumaturge, on T:3391 20:23 hmm, now I'm wondering whose turn the steed attacks on 20:24 steed handling is something I've always been a bit unclear on 20:24 retalitory kills are credited appropriately because mhitm doesn't care for mon_moving at all 20:24 (it's one of the things that doesn't work at all in DeuceHack) 20:25 iirc nh4 dragons use their breath even if mounted 20:25 which is cool 20:25 hmm 20:26 since fiqhack monsters can be "very fast", knights on warhorses get a silly movement speed 20:26 iirc very fast is *(5/3) 20:26 so avg speed 40 20:27 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 655 points, T:842, killed by a kobold werewolf 20:27 very fast air elementals are speed 60 20:29 ais523: would making amnesia wipe out spells completely be too harsh? it could be a nerf to casters which tend to be rather strong lategame 20:29 I don't mean clear the spell list, but remove spells 20:29 individually per hit 20:30 one thing worth pointing out is that fiqhack spellbooks are one-use but gives 60k turns 20:30 so the amnesia hit would be harsher 20:30 than vanilla 20:30 FIQ: isn't that what it used to do in 3.4.3? 20:30 if amnesia could wipe out spells and spellbooks are one use only, thats pretty harsh 20:30 I don't like amnesia but my main issue with it is UI 20:30 wiping out map knowledge and items 20:31 I don't have an issue with amnesia otherwise per se 20:31 it got changed to reducing spell memory to 0 both to make it easier to remove spells near the start of the list, and to avoid screwing with spell letters 20:31 ais523: well in fiqhack, spell letters is a non-issue since they don't change 20:31 does it do the NH4 thing where every spell has its own default letter? 20:31 also what do you mean with "near the start of the list"? 20:31 yeah it does 20:32 [hdf-us] [xnh] Ardub (Kni Hum Mal Law) made his first wish - "blessed greased fixed bag of holding", on T:17056 20:32 https://0x0.st/i3x1.png <- apparently I have a horde of orcs that were eager to celebrate me finishing Sokoban 20:32 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) entered the Bigroom, on T:22067 20:32 nabru: haha 20:33 also that's an interesting yellow 20:33 what palette is this 20:34 K2: ais523: the main reason I considered it was because lategame spellcasters are OP 20:34 so I wouldn't mind something to specifically target those 20:34 One of the defaults that came with Konsole, I think 20:34 https://0x0.st/i3xj.png 20:34 fiqhack already does this to some extent though, since it has player cancellation 20:34 FIQ: 3.4.3 amnesia always deletes the spell at the end of the spell list, it doesn't randomize 20:34 most players don't realise this, but when you realise it, it can be exploited 20:34 which works similar to what some roguelikes call "silence" 20:35 this is because deleting things in the middle of an array is hard :-) 20:35 except that fiqhack's player cancellation -- just like for monsters -- is permanent 20:35 and needs to be cured 20:35 ais523: I see, that's fair 20:35 [hdf-us] [nh370] nabru (Val Dwa Fem Law), 6488 points, T:5165, killed by a gargoyle, while sleeping 20:36 actually no it's not 20:36 but meh 20:36 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:4886 20:37 -!- amateurhour has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:39 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 3511 points, T:5060, killed by a yeti 20:43 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Cha), 33578 points, T:4753, killed by a blast of frost 20:46 <@riker> k2: pull request for the ice queen multihit submitted 20:46 nice 20:46 <@riker> tossed it in dmonsfree with some handling so it doesn't spam "you defeat kathryn" every extra attack you make 20:46 * K2 goes to look 20:46 <@riker> praying on travis rn 20:47 heh 20:48 really glad i started using travis. its helped catch a few things that needed to be corrected 20:48 plus it makes a windows binary possible easy-peasy 20:48 no idea if anyone even uses that 20:50 ais523: can I make a bitflag array of an arbitrary size?? 20:50 I was considering merging the M1, M2 and M3 flags into a single array since they basically only exist because one ran out of room 20:51 FIQ: yes, but the initializers for it will get more complex 20:51 I suppose it wouldn't exactly be a major memory consumption to just define it as an array of chars, but it seems wasteful :P 20:51 you'll need an extra {} around the M_ fields 20:52 the bitfield (or consecutive bitfields) is more efficient than the string version in pretty much every respect 20:52 and also leads to clearer code if you ever want to check two flags at once 20:53 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 289 points, T:1033, killed by a small mimic 20:53 @riker nice 20:54 merging, will test it out 20:56 kitty came back! 20:57 k2: I've decided after reading some backscroll and hanging my head in shame for a coupel days, that after this ascension i will no longer starcum games on hdf 20:57 in my defense, I didn't realize how much it screwed things up. I can totally play with whatever they give me 20:57 in fact, I think anyone not letting the game choose their character is degenerate... that's the real way to play 20:58 role and all 20:58 (kidding) 20:58 heh 20:59 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1182 20:59 in vanilla when there's a 1/5 of a chance of a marker it's so hard to not do lol . But i think i've gotten to the point where i don't need to 20:59 hell, I used to play priest all the time on nao and scum or ID spellbook... BUt i never learned the game doing that. 20:59 Price id, unicorn horns etc. process of elimination. That's half the early game i 21:00 so anyway, I'm sorry for real 21:07 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) killed Cerberus, on T:6357 21:08 ais523: how did deucehack handle the quest? 21:09 did each player get its own instance of it? 21:11 some areas were instanced, I think the Quest was one of them 21:12 also did you see what I wrote some days ago? not sure if you were on or not 21:12 I probably wasn't 21:12 and even if I was I don't think I was paying attention 21:12 but one thing I considered to make multiplayer less annoying was to, with a quick keypress, be able to set your player to be AI-controlled or player-controlled 21:12 oh, I don't remember you saying that, but it's an interesting idea 21:12 so that, during downtime when nothing is happening, you can leave control to an AI that acts as a pet to a single player "leader" 21:13 although, one of the main annoyances is manual control happening at inconvenient times 21:13 and during combat, you can easily regain control 21:13 in deucehack, it's quite easy and common to use, say, a travel or autoexplore command to let the other player on the level micromanage in peace 21:13 but then you find something interesting, or reach the point you were travelling to, or a monster turns up, then their actions get interrupted 21:14 I see what you mean 21:14 an AI switch sounds like it might fix that to some extent, but I'm not sure it'd be enough of a fix 21:14 this is why my intention for any future NetHack multiplayer project would be for full-asynchronous play in which the players can move independently on different timescales, even on the same level 21:14 I've never really tried multiplayer 21:15 nethack 21:15 so I can't really attest to how nice an experience it would be 21:15 or horrible :P 21:15 anyway I'm contemplating implementing nethack multiplayer atm 21:15 NetHack, the MMORPG 21:16 I was always planning to reimplement it if we ever ended up with full player/monster symmetry 21:16 although there are some things that it's fundamentally hard to make monsters do 21:16 engulfing and riding were the two largest offenders 21:16 fiqhack isn't quite that far yet 21:16 but I think it's far enough for it to be made interesting 21:17 in DeuceHack, I simply banned riding to implement things, and attempted to fix engulfing but it didn't work 21:17 and in all versions, getting engulfed causes a panic 21:17 some variants actually have monster riding 21:17 fiqhack is *not* one of them 21:17 (it isn't meant to, but it does) 21:17 I ought to check the implementation at some point 21:18 I think the ideal fix for monster engulfing is probably to put them on the migration chain and run special AI for the case 21:19 because the normal rules don't apply so the normal AI would make no sense to run 21:20 the reason to put them on the migration chain is to make them out of the way of general "do all the monsters" things 21:21 maybe NetHack would benefit from a place to put temporarily unused monsters that isn't tied to any particular purpose, like the migration chain is 21:21 at least two trading card games that I know of ended up having to create such a place several years after initially being created, in order to solve some otherwise unresolvable rules issues 21:21 something similar in principe could work for mounts but I don't think putting mounts on the migration chain is a good idea 21:21 maybe the same phenomenon applies to video games too 21:21 since most "do all the monsters" things should still apply to mounts 21:22 NH4 has the floating objects chain, but that's basically just there so that we can figure out what happened to the objects in the case of, e.g., a midturn save 21:23 and objects aren't meant to be kept there between turns 21:23 yeah it's nont meant to have any kind of permanence 21:23 right 21:23 it's basically to make sure objects are stored *somewhere* during moving between chains 21:23 so it can be cleaned up without causing memory leaks 21:23 I wonder if monsters have something similar 21:23 I don't think so 21:24 monsters are very rarely stored anywhere other than the level's chain 21:24 even dead monsters are on the level's chain, up to the point where they get removed entirely 21:24 so re-chaining is an operation that happens much more frequently for objects than monsters 21:24 right 21:25 the main exception I can think of is for monsters stored in, e.g., fields of corpses or statues, in case they get resurrected 21:25 the floating object chain is also more or less mandatory ot handle throwing objects 21:25 it's possible that NH4 would memory leak if you did a hangup at that moment 21:25 the alternative would be a single object global 21:25 for it 21:27 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) had Magicbane bestowed upon her by Anhur, on T:2281 21:27 K2: evilhack monsters can have mounts, right? how is this displayed in-game? 21:27 it probably isn't worth finding alternatives to the floating object chain; it isn't a lot of code, it makes things a lot clearer, and almost nothing needs to care about it 21:28 hmm 21:28 ais523: right 21:28 so in evilhack, I know you can only charge death wands once... So if I poly one and it comes 1:5, I can't charge right? 21:29 rebatela: if it works like wands of wishing, yeah 21:29 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:4731 21:35 well you can never poly for a wand of wishsing.. 21:36 it's not like i actually charged the death wand, but i guess the polypiling for it makes it unchargeable 21:36 (i'm fine with this, just making sure 21:36 now that orcus doesn't actually have a death wand I got a little scared about astral 21:36 alkthough I can know cast finger of death at 9% fail 21:36 now 21:37 ais523: is there a way using vanilla statushilites to use something akin to NH4's "basefg"? 21:37 and I have a couple 0:1 death wands that I just need to use wands and charge 21:37 off to kill the wizard again 21:37 I feel like i'm gonna splat, but whatever 21:37 for 3.6.x I ended up coloring my attributes according to various in-game modifiers since they're more important than the actual values of the attributes 21:38 what I want to do is that if an attribute changes, I want to underline it 21:38 but not change the color 21:39 FIQ: I'm not familiar with the statushilites code 21:40 sorry 21:40 my guess is no, but I might well be wrong 21:40 hmm 21:40 speaking of this makes me want to add statushilites to fiqhack 21:40 while the defaults are *far* saner than NH3, they ought to be customizeable 21:41 in general the statushilites code is a pain to change, both because it requires a lot of interaction with the config file system, and because it needs to be implemented on a wide range of platforms 21:41 on one hand I found the statuscolors code superior 21:41 on the other, that isn't really portable between platforms ta all 21:41 *at all 21:41 forgot I have a wish left. I will probably wish for one more death wand 21:41 for instance, the curses interface needed to completely reimplement the statuscolors code 21:41 I have somewhat controversial rules on customization: I feel that it is a bad idea to add a customization option for something if one value is adequate for everyone, because this just raises the chance that someone will accidentally set it to something worse than the default 21:42 high priest has a marker hope it it's 0:99 21:42 FIQ: yes they can. a monster riding another monster, the glyph is inverted 21:42 on the other hand, this did allow me more flexibility ot mess around with the look of the status bar in curses, something that 3.6 simply doesn't allow at all I think 21:42 code is from splicehack 21:42 K2: does this depend on use_inverse 21:42 I guess the balancing test should be, is it more likely that someone will customize this to something that is better for them than the default, or that someone will customize this to something that is worse for them than the default? 21:43 i dont recall 21:43 K2: how is this distinguishable from tame monsters? 21:43 i kind of wand a magic harp though... 21:43 if they attack you they arent tame 21:43 yeah 21:43 :) 21:43 can't say I'm a fan of this 21:43 k2: how do I message you privately so it doesn't show up in this feed. like a chat ? 21:43 bad implementation IMO 21:43 anyway, in vanilla, people customizing things to become worse than the default happens surprisingly often, often in cases where non-default values are very unlikely to be useful 21:44 ais523: yeah but I think this is more because vanilla's defaults are utterly insane 21:44 FIQ i disagree 21:44 heh, a few days ago, someone reported the "null" option as a bug, thinking that the name of the option had failed to load, or something like that 21:44 no one has complained about it 21:44 so once they decide to fidle with some, they figure to test all the options 21:44 its a hella cool feature 21:44 and once they don't immediately notice a difference, may keep it 21:44 despite it being worse 21:45 and got a response explaining that the option controls whether the terminfo library is told to send appropriate padding characters to control timing over a serial link 21:45 K2: you misunderstand 21:45 only other option would be an underline, or maybe they blink 21:45 I think monster mounts in general is a great idea 21:45 blinking would be weird 21:45 I just don't like the way it's displayed 21:45 blink would be crazy, yes 21:45 (the crazy thing about this is that the option is useless even for its intended purpose: the terminal library should be aware of what padding, if any, is required, so it doesn't make sense for the user program to override it) 21:45 nitrohack did that for object piles iirc 21:45 it drove people crazy 21:46 to the point where they ended up jujst disabling it alltogether 21:46 but given that padding characters are only useful on slow serial connections, which nobody uses for their terminals nowadays, the option is going to do nothing for over 99% of players 21:46 anyway K2, have you ever heard of terminal background colors? 21:46 rebatela i pm'ed you 21:46 FIQ yeah 21:46 they're a somewhat new concept I know, only been around since around 1990ish or so? 21:46 (there is probably someone still playing NetHack on their serial terminal, because what else are you going to do with your serial terminal?) 21:46 they drastically increase the freedom you have to display uniqueness 21:47 FIQ: I'm trying to whether if I actually disabled that feature for NH4, or whether I just turned it off by default 21:47 both 3.4.3 and NH4 uses it for stuff 21:47 and I think 3.6's habit of using inverse is a regression 21:47 * whether I 21:47 so if monster has a mount, background color = fleecy 21:47 FIQ: 3.4.3 doesn't use it, NAO may have done 21:47 ais523: you removed obvject piles alltogether 21:47 I ended up re-implementing it in fiqhack 21:47 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) hit with a wielded weapon for the first time, on T:64412 21:47 *object piles 21:47 FIQ: NitroHack does monster/background blink 21:47 FIQ run that by AntiGulp 21:48 e.g. blinking between < and f when there is a cat on the upstairs 21:48 I think I probably replaced that with the background colours 21:48 K2: ok I will 21:48 ais523: hmmm I've actually considered tile animations myself 21:48 its a neat suggestion, i bet she goes for it 21:48 not fo rthat particular case, mind you 21:48 but for other things 21:49 for example, flickering "z" if a monster is asleep 21:49 one thing worth mentioning is that NitroHack's CPU usage goes way up when it's blinking tiles at you 21:49 every 5 or so seconds 21:49 would that be too distracting you think? 21:49 you probably can't make the zs small enough on an ASCII interface 21:49 that sort of thing works in tiles, but probably doesn't even need the flicker 21:50 ais523: the idea was to replace the entire tile with a z briefly 21:50 right 21:50 it probably works better if you get rid of zruties 21:50 oh but nobody would miss those 21:50 from my point of view as a player, the worst thing about blink was seeing something on the map that looked less dangerous than it was 21:50 (e.g. a set of stairs rather than a monster) 21:51 3.6 statues annoy me for a similar reason 21:51 mhm 21:51 if you are flashing something that isn't otherwise in the game, it's less of a problem 21:51 yeah I'm not a fan of 3.6 statues 21:51 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) attained the rank of Thaumaturge, on T:3068 21:51 I would be happier with 3.6 statues if the statue color wasn't used for any non-statue monsters 21:51 I was pondering if I could get away with making them unique in curses 21:51 but never bothered in the end 21:52 I do get the flavour of "it looks like a monster until you look closely", but that shouldn't require actual farlook 21:52 gray+underline is what I had in mind 21:52 and might be more trouble than it's worth even if it doesn't 21:52 we could always use… italics 21:52 does any terminal support that 21:52 FIQ: are there any plans to allow players to configure menucolors and status highlights in fiqhack? 21:52 which does actually work in most terminals even though they hardly seem to be acknowledged anywhere 21:52 K2: yes 21:52 in fact 21:52 I intended to implement menucolors yesterday 21:52 but I got distracted 21:52 nice 21:53 like 'ooh shiny!' distracted? 21:53 :P 21:53 I had a likely win going on in pathos 21:53 figured I'd play it until I won once 21:53 ah 21:53 I still have 21:53 but I'm stuck 21:53 no idea how to proceed past medusa and the discord proceeded to be utterly unhelpful 21:54 going to investigate it more when I get around to it 21:54 i revisited age of empires II again 21:54 downloaded the latest remake of it on steam 21:54 the graphics are way way better 21:56 'definitive edition' 21:58 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:65152 21:59 first time I've done that with finger of death. very fun.. now I need to get out of here ! 22:00 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:65157 22:00 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Cha) was given Frost Brand, on T:6784 22:06 -!- Menchers has joined #hardfought 22:07 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) performed the invocation, on T:65165 22:08 <@Sig> K2: Definitive Edition is really cool. I like the new civs they added too 22:09 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 1207 points, T:1483, killed by a rothe 22:10 i really hope i don't get high score or top 3 or whatever because I already have 1 and 2 spots and we all know those all really LAST place lol 22:11 -!- TheOtherNabru has joined #hardfought 22:11 -!- TheOtherNabru has quit [Client Quit] 22:12 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 138 points, T:214, killed by a jackal 22:13 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 112 points, T:230, killed by a kobold wererat 22:14 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 29 points, T:61, killed by a kobold werejackal's bolt of cold 22:16 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the invisible high priest of Moloch, on T:65367 22:16 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:65372 22:19 -!- Menchers has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:19 oh boy 8.0x monster gen now. 22:19 sometimes I'd rather have the mysterious force 22:20 [hdf-us] [dnh] lapis (Mon Bat Fem Cha), 64510 points, T:7430, killed by a hedrow zombie 22:21 <@riker> !lastgame lapis 22:21 @riker: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/l/lapis/dnethack/dumplog/1596933842.dnh.txt | [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/l/lapis/nh343/dumplog/1561356114.nh343.txt 22:23 looks like someone is playing extinctionist on hdf 22:23 @Sig I havent jumped that far into aoe2 yet, just trying it out with a standard game 22:24 jonadab: how come 4k doesn't have enhanced watchmode? 22:25 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) reached Mine Town, on T:4331 22:25 ais523: scrolls of mail should probably not be able to be used to navigate while in the plane of air 22:26 thank you for using the word jump there. I need to remember I'm hasting and wearing jumping boots1 22:26 allthough iirc there was a rather fun first-time ascension on NAO mentioned on nhqdb where everyone ended up sending the guy mail to help him navigate the Plane 22:26 nothing wrong with mail! 22:27 i lvoe that feature 22:27 quite the cooperation :P 22:28 -!- Menchers has joined #hardfought 22:32 it would be great if the mails scrolls were polypileable... 22:34 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a silver dragon, on T:17745 22:35 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Val Hum Mal Law), 156550 points, T:17759, quit 22:35 -!- drunkmonkey has joined #hardfought 22:35 oh no i got lycanthroy 22:35 lost my shirt/robe 22:36 can't get holy water out of my bag 22:36 should I just wait for it to go away 22:36 THIS SUCKS 22:36 or I polymorphed or something 22:36 i don't understand 22:37 oh i'm a weredemon 22:37 [hdf-us] [evil] tinklebear (Wiz Ith Mal Cha), 3730 points, T:8897, zapped himself with a wand 22:37 i guess I can wish for a dragon shirt 22:37 and i should have a spare robe at stash 22:37 when I get killed I'll return to human? 22:38 ok i'm back to human but no robe or shirt ugh 22:38 drank a holy water 22:38 lost 20 AC 22:39 [hdf-us] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 dragonhide t-shirt of drain resistance", on T:65721 22:41 i should be wearing cloak of MR anyway and hiding the artifacts 22:41 [hdf-us] [nh370] aximili (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed Juiblex, on T:30885 22:41 -!- AntiGulp has joined #hardfought 22:41 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v AntiGulp] by ChanServ 22:41 K2: What were you trying to get FIQ to run by me? 22:41 AntiGulp: Message from @riker at 2020-08-07 23:21 EDT: intentional that spl magic markers/tinning kits use grease rules for their initial charges? 5+rn2(21) 22:41 AntiGulp: Message from @riker at 2020-08-07 23:33 EDT: found the issue with markers/tinning kits (assuming it was accidental), submitted a PR to revert the bug(?) 22:41 a 22:41 <@riker> apologies :/ 22:42 AntiGulp: specific background color for monsters riding mounts 22:42 K2: Excellent idea 22:42 I recently updated monster mounts so they display a unique tile in tiled builds of the game, but that doesn’t solve ascii confusion. 22:43 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 4127 points, T:2411, killed by a giant beetle 22:43 Well, tile modifier. Basically, a little “R” appears in the left hand corner of a rider pair tile. 22:43 i saw, that was a great idea 22:44 I’d wanted to do it pretty much since the beginning, but it took a while to figure out. 22:45 eldritch ki-rin 22:45 I had one tamed earlier and went to find a saddle and then couldn't tame again 22:45 but I do not want to deal with it right now 22:46 Eldritch? 22:47 is there anyway to get a WoD that a monster drops in lava? 22:47 can i freeze? 22:48 [hdf-us] [nh370] aximili (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed the invisible Asmodeus, on T:31299 22:48 <@riker> antigulp: chaotic ki-rin in evilhack 22:48 Ah 22:48 <@riker> rebatela, you should be able to freeze & dig out? 22:49 <@riker> they exist as an equivalent to ki-rin for dark knights, since knights can only tame the ki-rin of their alignment 22:49 i froze and then dug and the hole filled with lava again 22:50 [hdf-us] [nh370] aximili (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed the invisible Baalzebub, on T:31383 22:50 oh well, it was only a wand of death... 22:50 <@riker> was there lava adjacent/ 22:54 yeah that must have been it 22:54 it was a salamander w/ a wand of death 22:55 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) had Magicbane bestowed upon him by Anhur, on T:1974 22:55 i might have enough charges anyway, plus finger of death (which I've never cast until this game and am falling love with lol) 22:58 [hdf-us] [ndnh] bagun (Pir Hum Mal Neu), 1006 points, T:1166, killed by a swamp kobold 23:00 when did I lose weaponles??? 23:00 wtf 23:00 <@riker> F 23:00 pickaxe has been gone a long long time 23:00 maybe I had my shuriken wielded and didn't quiver 23:00 that sucks 23:00 dammit 23:01 i had weaponless still going when I went to kill rodney. I know i did 23:03 AntiGulp: what background do you intend to use? 23:04 -!- VaderFLAG has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04 ais523: what was the trouble with white bg? is it fixed yet in modern versions? 23:04 nice just got a WoD from player monster 23:06 FIQ: I’m not sure. Something distinct from objectpile? 23:06 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) polymorphed her first object, on T:5680 23:06 ais523: on balancing options and weighing whether more people will customize it to better/worse than the default: better and worse are subjective so you'll inevitably end up making the game harder on those that customized it to what you see as worse but they see as better, by deleting the option 23:07 There are people who prefer playing with !color. 23:07 [hdf-us] [nh370] ssnufd (Tou Hum Mal Neu) hit with a wielded weapon for the first time, on T:3102 23:07 Despite the vast majority of the player base liking it. 23:07 AntiGulp: for comparision with other variants: blue for obj pile and tame monsters, red for hidden stairs, cyan for hidden traps, purple for detected monsters, green for dnh zombies 23:07 * AntiGulp screenshots this for later 23:08 these colors are what NH4+friends, dynahack and dnethack uses 23:08 other 3.4.3-derivatives have object piles and hidden stairs as well be blue and red respectively, but doesn't have the other colors 23:08 but there's no outright conflicts 23:08 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 1131 points, T:2957, killed by a grid bug, while frozen by a monster's gaze 23:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] oh6 (Rog Hum Mal Cha) attained the rank of Robber, on T:24048 23:09 [hdf-us] [nh370] ssnufd (Tou Hum Mal Neu) became literate by engraving "Elbereth", on T:3175 23:09 Since you don't really have any other choices in color, you could use green if you don't have dnh zombies 23:09 <@riker> you should add dnh zombies 23:09 or gray since it's unused, but afaik gray bg gives a certain terminal issues 23:10 I can't remember, does NH4 semantic tiling keep the original foreground color of an item/monster when assigning it a semantic background? 23:10 like if you drop an emerald ring and create an obj pile, does it render as green = on blue bg? 23:10 dammit i forgot to grab the marker from high priest 23:10 i didn't even see it 23:10 NH4 specifically renders that as an actual green = because NH4 does not have object piles 23:10 should i go back? lol 23:11 leave the amuelt here and go back, right? 23:11 DynaHack, FIQHack and (maybe?) 4k renders it as a green = on a blue bg 23:11 -!- VaderFLAG has joined #hardfought 23:11 leading to possible garishness 23:11 aosdict: what is the alternative? 23:12 thanks for the help everyone. Do you guys play these games? lol j/k 23:12 wait, doesn't 3.6 use inverse for obj piles? 23:12 maybe curses kept the 3.4.3 colors 23:12 yes. did 3.4.3 not? 23:12 the curses interface uses blue bg for obj piles 23:12 similar to 3.4.3-nao and all variants do 23:12 (all 3.4.3 variants I mean) 23:13 I wonder if it kept hilite hidden stairs too 23:13 <@riker> antigulp: whatever you do, try to find a different color than the purple/hot pink that some variants use for detected monsters 23:13 <@riker> it sucks 23:13 nope, no red bg for hidden stairs 23:13 @riker yeah I hate that color 23:13 as far as I'm concerned, for variants that don't need to introduce new meanings for ascii glyphs such as monsters riding monsters, there's no need to expand semantic hilighting beyond inverse for object piles and pets 23:13 I disable it when I play NH4+friends 23:13 <@riker> calling it "purple" is like calling fuschia "maroon" 23:13 i guess not 23:13 I also advised against using it for chris 23:14 but it appears that he used that color in the end anyway lol 23:14 <@riker> rebatela: do you need the marker? 23:14 <@riker> fiq: for me, it's not hot pink anymore. i dont' remember changing it but it's just, normal 23:14 aosdict: the curses interface uses blue for obj piles for historical reasons 23:14 it could be changed, but I'm not going to fix it since I prefer it that way :) 23:15 <@riker> or its like, a dark dark purple 23:15 Thought: No object piles. Every item takes up one tile :) 23:15 I know that hilighting hidden stairs and traps are valid things that exist in vanilla, but hidden stairs can be remembered with #terrain now, and traps can be remembered with #terrain and, ideally, a paranoid trap option 23:15 @riker you can disable it 23:15 which I did 23:15 on dnh and NH4+friends 23:15 AntiGulp: Ever played One Hour One Life? 23:15 <@riker> oh wait that's my terminal 23:15 [hdf-us] [nh370] ssnufd (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered the Gnomish Mines, on T:3466 23:15 <@riker> hot pink is $868CA6 23:15 aosdict: hilite hidden stairs does NOT exist in vanilla 23:15 <@riker> *#868CA6 23:15 or traps 23:15 aosdict: I haven’t, although I’ve played at least one roguelike that functions that way. 23:16 AntiGulp: mystery dungeon games have a single item per tile 23:16 FIQ: yes I know. but they're things that could be argued for adding semantic hilighting into vanilla (e.g. a game without monster steeds etc) 23:16 items try to realign up to 2 tiles away but if they fail still, they're destroyed outright 23:16 aosdict: right 23:17 related: the omnipresent debate over How Do We Indicate Statues 23:17 that's not as much a debate as "some people think it sucks, some people don't care" 23:17 I don't think I've ever seen someone that *like* the new statues 23:18 …I like the new statues 23:18 I like the new statues 23:18 shhhh 23:18 I love the new statues. you mean in 3.6? 23:18 but fair enough 23:18 <@riker> new statues? 23:18 such a weird thing that the 3.43 peopel complain about 23:18 but I think there should be an option to have them back as ` if you hate the new statues 23:18 <@riker> like, statues showing as the monster glyph? 23:18 well they're not as much new as just displayed differently 23:18 they were strange at first, but now they make total sense to me 23:18 yeah @riker 23:18 What aosdict said 23:18 it looks like the monster and then you realize it's a statue 23:18 <@riker> i have no strong feelings but i personally prefer them on `, probably just because i'm used to it 23:18 and yeah I want to disable it 23:18 <@riker> it annoys me because dnh actually has monsters with those colors :/ 23:18 there is actually a way to replace dungeon tiles in the config with S_symbols or whatever it's called 23:19 but for whatever reason, statues are specifically exempt 23:19 I have trouble seeing ` onscreen so I like new statues. 23:19 <@riker> good pt 23:19 The actual sticking point with the new statues is "I can't tell if that white T is an ice troll or just a statue" 23:19 hence, the debate 23:19 do we underline them, etc 23:19 fiqhack does the exact reverse 23:19 it keeps them at ` but colorizes them based on the monster color 23:20 I should probably change the ` into something more visible 23:20 Ooh, I like that 23:20 if I want to do that 23:20 as of right now vanilla could go the route of underlining them, but I would much prefer that peaceful underline gets the nod 23:20 since it's barely noticeable atm 23:20 AntiGulp: oh yeah I forgot, peacefuls use brown bg 23:20 in the list above 23:20 Huh! 23:20 <@riker> fiq, that's like the weirdest compromise 23:20 <@riker> colored ` 23:20 <@riker> its not bad but its.. weird 23:21 that makes no sense to me 23:21 I’d really enjoy if NetHack used the extended ascii codepage. It would be nice to have more symbols to work with. 23:21 [hdf-us] [nh370] ssnufd (Tou Hum Mal Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3561 23:21 @riker it wasn't as much a compromise as "it's kinda cool" 23:21 AntiGulp: you mean DECgraphics/IBMgraphics? 23:21 Yeah. 23:21 <@riker> antigulp: what, and drop support for all those ancient operating systems? never! 23:21 AntiGulp: you know you can enable it, right? 23:21 I mean, it does use that. 23:21 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) chose an elven dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1556 23:21 I find IBMgraphics superior but my terminal has no support for it 23:21 so I end up using DECgraphics 23:22 because either is superior to ascii 23:22 and its shitty walls 23:22 I mean, I have them enabled and I like them, but from a design standpoint I never want to use IBMgraphics or DECgraphics for new things since I know not everyone’s terminal can display them. 23:22 yes, problem is that there are too many systems out there that only support one of the extended ascii graphics 23:22 clearly the solution is universal adoption of libuncursed 23:22 I can actually get "IBMgraphics", but only in NH4+friends 23:22 through libuncursed 23:23 and it's completely transparent 23:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] aximili (Sam Hum Mal Law) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:33261 23:23 because my libuncursed port for the curses NH3 interface gave me IBMgraphics support for free 23:23 [hdf-us] [nh370] aximili (Sam Hum Mal Law) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:33265 23:23 went back and got the marker. phew 23:24 the reason for this is the unicode autodetection 23:24 <@riker> markers are overrated 23:24 <@riker> just wish every scroll you need 4head 23:24 basically, during initialization, libuncursed checks the terminal for whether it has unicode support or not 23:24 if not, it assumes CP437 and tries to configure it as such 23:24 It took me a while to adjust to 3.6. But then I saw most people were playing it (on NAO) so I just accepted the changes 23:25 if it has unicode support, it both supports unicode directly if desired, but also will transparently translate >=128-byte characters to their CP437 appearance 23:25 oooo 23:25 this is why using libuncursed for the NH3 curses interface -- which doesn't know about unicode at all -- gives IBMgraphics support for free 23:25 since unicode terminals has CP437 characters as part of unicode 23:26 and other terminals almost certainly support CP437 natively 23:26 the one exception I've seen for this was some bizarre no-name terminal application for android I tried once several years ago 23:26 it was so shitty that I quickly stopped using it 23:28 the reason NH3 curses interface never got a proper libuncursed port despite my work on it was because libuncursed is not code-compatible with ncurses at all 23:28 [hdf-us] [dnh] Alasnuyo (Arc Hum Mal Neu) was given the Shield of Yggdrasil, on T:8177 23:29 while adding the necessary functions for libuncursed initialization isn't hard by itself, there were bizarre issues, mostly concerning screen redraw, that I never got working properly before I stopped working on it in favour of other things 23:29 iirc it was related to key input causing redraws on libuncursed but not in ncurses 23:29 and the curses windowport assumed it doesn't 23:30 causing the game to constantly flicker 23:31 [hdf-au] [nh370] drunkmonkey (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 947 points, T:3619, killed by a large cat 23:33 [hdf-us] [nh370] dvorkian (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) entered Sokoban, on T:7683 23:34 -!- AntiGulp has quit [Quit: *dissolves into golden butterflies*] 23:42 [hdf-us] [gh] Heliokopis (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 342 points, T:780, killed by a goblin 23:42 [hdf-us] [nh370] Frozty (Kni Hum Mal Law) averted death, on T:42498 23:42 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) killed the invisible Grue, on T:16674 23:46 -!- rebatela has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:46 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 23:47 trying to polypile at 8.0x monster generation is quite the challenge... 23:48 especially not being able to teleport. I might go hide the amulet again and try to find a safe space 23:48 [hdf-us] [nh370] Frozty (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed amulet of life saving", on T:42501 23:48 I put it under a boulder when i went back to the sanctum for the marker 23:49 [hdf-eu] [dnh] microlance (Ana Dro Fem Cha) averted death, on T:17087 23:55 backscroll: riker THANK YOU FOR talking to me... yah I kinda needed the marker.. It was pretty easy to back and get (without the amulet) 23:56 polypiling is really hard so i'm basically gonna just write scrolls 23:56 <@riker> lol 23:56 i'm not sure if i'm gonna do this now or wait til mornign 23:56 <@riker> i'm telling ya - just wish eveyrthing 23:56 wishes are gone 23:56 i had one left but i lost my shirt/robe when i got lycanthropy 23:56 wished up another shirt... had a spare robe 23:57 i ate a some increase damage rings so i can one/two shot a lot of things with grandamaster 23:57 i'm pissed i broke weaponless 23:57 must have JUST Happend 23:57 and it wasn't a pickaxe 23:58 really wanted the conduct i don't usually care about 23:58 oh no.. they got to my stash