00:04 [hdf-us] [nh370] Kevkat (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor (5 times), on T:39417 00:11 -!- AntiGulp has quit [Quit: *dissolves into golden butterflies*] 00:27 [hdf-us] [nh370] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 1506 points, T:2180, killed by an owlbear 00:57 [hdf-us] [nh370] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 407 points, T:828, killed by a manes 01:00 -!- rebatela has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06 [hdf-us] [xnh] Ardub (Arc Gno Fem Neu) made her first wish - "blessed greased fixed +2 helm of brilliance", on T:16794 01:09 [hdf-us] [xnh] Ardub (Arc Gno Fem Neu) made her first artifact wish - "blessed fixed +2 Grayswandir", on T:16802 01:18 In a cloud of smoke, a djinni emerges! The djinni speaks. "You disturbed me, fool!" 01:18 "I think I'll keep this wish for myself!" The djinni makes a wish for a dusty cloak! 01:18 hahahah 01:27 !who 01:27 K2: [hdf-us] tjw [nh370] Ardub [xnh] | [hdf-eu] No current players | [hdf-au] No current players 01:29 [hdf-us] [xnh] Ardub (Arc Gno Fem Neu) killed Asmodeus, on T:17608 01:29 EvilHack updated (all servers) 01:30 ^ some bug fixes and some neat new features 01:31 SpliceHack updated (all servers) 01:31 ^ significant bugfix 01:33 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:38 gnite all 01:42 [hdf-us] [xnh] Ardub (Arc Gno Fem Neu) genocided class U, on T:18125 01:52 [hdf-us] [xnh] Ardub (Arc Gno Fem Neu) killed Juiblex, on T:18476 01:57 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 01:58 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:58 -!- moony has quit [*.net *.split] 02:58 -!- Moult has quit [*.net *.split] 02:58 -!- hackedhead has quit [*.net *.split] 02:58 -!- Lymia has quit [*.net *.split] 02:58 -!- klintos has quit [*.net *.split] 02:58 -!- winny has quit [*.net *.split] 02:58 -!- tungtn has quit [*.net *.split] 02:58 -!- khoR has quit [*.net *.split] 03:02 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 03:02 -!- winny has joined #hardfought 03:02 -!- tungtn has joined #hardfought 03:02 -!- khoR has joined #hardfought 03:02 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v tungtn] by tolkien.freenode.net 03:05 -!- elenmirie__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:37 [hdf-us] [nh370] dbanethacker (Val Hum Fem Neu), 11340 points, T:5034, killed by a dwarf king 03:41 -!- Umbire has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:45 -!- Moult has joined #hardfought 03:45 -!- moony has joined #hardfought 03:45 -!- hackedhead has joined #hardfought 03:45 -!- Lymia has joined #hardfought 03:45 -!- klintos has joined #hardfought 04:11 -!- stenno2 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:16 -!- Umbire has joined #hardfought 04:26 -!- Umbire has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50 -!- stennowork has joined #hardfought 05:17 -!- stennowork has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:52 -!- attie has joined #hardfought 05:57 -!- attie has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:49 [hdf-us] [slshm] xyzzy (Wiz Dop Fem Cha), 38946 points, T:10004, killed by an ochre jelly 07:34 greased and fixed magic marker? 07:35 am I missing something or is fixed just the "catch all" on any equipment and greased fixed is redundant and not needed on a magic marker? 07:35 you are correct 07:36 it's for nothing other than their own enjoyment 07:36 Er... shurely greased fixed is not redundant for all items 07:36 fixed won't do anything on a marker, but if you wish for greased you will actually get grease 07:37 EPI: writing with a greased magic marker has a much higher failure rate, because have YOU ever tried to write something correctly when your writing implement is slick with grease? 07:46 [hdf-us] [slshm] xyzzy (Wiz Dop Fem Cha), 3112 points, T:3077, killed by a gray unicorn 07:48 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) killed Yeenoghu, on T:37068 07:51 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) killed Glasya, on T:37215 07:55 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) killed Daemon, on T:37451 08:06 thx, started to wonder if I were just lucky with all my magic marker wishes 08:20 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:38373 08:20 !tell LarienTelrunya https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/esoyhj/gnollhack_a_new_nethack_variant_in_public_beta/ and https://github.com/hyvanmielenpelit/GnollHack 08:20 I'm on it, K2. 08:24 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) destroyed Lich, the Fiend of Earth, on T:38763 08:32 anyone checked this out yet? https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/esoyhj/gnollhack_a_new_nethack_variant_in_public_beta/ 08:51 <{Demo}1> thanks to the ppl that repost the shit in the reddit that actually matters here 08:52 <{Demo}1> I'm gonna look at what they have and if I think they deserve it, cast open wounds on it 08:57 Sorry, Gnome, you have been removed as a race. 08:57 well fuck that 08:58 <{Demo}1> they r finnish 08:59 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:40079 09:00 <{Demo}1> I'm still gonna autistize the shit out of their repo I guess 09:00 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) performed the invocation, on T:40152 09:02 amy has already raped it 09:03 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) killed the elder priest of Moloch, on T:40294 09:03 -!- stennowork has joined #hardfought 09:05 <{Demo}1> oh has she? damn 09:05 <{Demo}1> I'm sure there are bugs I'll catch that she won't 09:05 <{Demo}1> and vice versa 09:05 well she says she's gonna, so 09:08 -!- aosdict|work has joined #hardfought 09:12 <{Demo}1> like plunder their maps and monsters or like shit spam the fuck out of the repo with her thoughts and observations? 09:14 the former 09:15 <{Demo}1> I'm gonna look at it when I have time 09:20 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Val Hum Mal Law) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of charging", on T:45118 09:21 there are some interesting changes mentioned 09:21 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Val Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed rustproof +2 gray dragon scale mail", on T:45121 09:22 whats that abotu? 09:24 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Val Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed amulet of reflection", on T:45130 09:24 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) entered the Planes, on T:41741 09:27 <{Demo}1> so far i've gleaned they arent perfect at version control 09:29 <{Demo}1> i expect this may be a bit like slashem? 09:30 <{Demo}1> mdbon but its based on PM with a lot of elseif... bleh 09:32 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) destroyed Death, on T:41955 09:33 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) destroyed Pestilence, on T:42023 09:36 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law) destroyed Famine, on T:42099 09:37 [hdf-us] [dnh] malor (Pri Bat Mal Law), 6587630 points, T:42117, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/m/malor/dnethack/dumplog/1579346921.dnh.txt 09:38 [hdf-us] [nh370] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 1841 points, T:2107, killed by a tengu, while praying 09:38 you are ascending a lot, malor 09:38 congracts 09:39 congrats even 09:39 [hdf-us] [nh370] klintos (Ran Orc Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:60988 09:39 [hdf-us] [dnh] Heliokopis (Sam Inc Mal Law) killed Croesus, on T:44541 09:39 grats again @malor 09:39 <@malor> thanks stenno and K2 09:40 {Demo}1 gnollhack is very slash'em like (first impression) 09:40 <@malor> also K2 I sent you a message via discord when you have a chance. Not urgent at all 🙂 09:40 k 09:40 <@malor> that was my first bootless ascension 🙂 09:41 !streak malor 09:41 stennowork: [hdf-us] malor Max[dnh]: 3 (2019-10-28 - 2019-12-07). Current[dnh]: 2 (since 2020-01-15). 09:41 no boots? 09:41 nice nice 09:41 are you crazy man? 09:41 :P 09:42 bootless sounds like a great idea for a conduct 09:42 did you spam haste self then? 09:42 it's probably a conduct in fourk 09:42 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Val Hum Mal Law) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of genocide", on T:45175 09:42 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Val Hum Mal Law) performed his first genocide (class L), on T:45175 09:42 [hdf-us] [nh370] samiam (Val Hum Mal Law) genocided class ;, on T:45176 09:42 so a gnoll healer starts with a lot of shit i don't know what it does 09:43 also, has weights displayed in pounds 09:43 how imperial 09:43 selling gehennom by the pound 09:43 aosdict|work: Well, there's nudist. 09:44 DIGESTING GEHENNOM BY THE POUND 09:45 fourk has things like amuletless and ringless, why not bootless? 09:45 Yum 09:45 :P 09:45 kitten starts at level 2 15 xp 09:45 aosdict|work: It has nudist and jewelryless. 09:46 er hp 09:46 And toolless. 09:46 wtf? 09:46 how would toolless be possible 09:46 I assume invocation items are exempt 09:46 You can #invoke the Bell and the Candelabrum. 09:46 if only fourk didn't have the nasty nh4 interface :( 09:47 jonadab, oh so basically apply-less? 09:47 Essentially, yes. You also can't loot containers. 09:47 can i wield/hit with weapon tools? 09:47 I forget. 09:47 fair 09:48 jewellryless sounds like an interesting challenge, toolless ... sounds way too hard for my taste lol 09:48 <{Demo}1> so im starting from the start of their commits 09:48 <{Demo}1> what the fuck is this shit 09:48 {Demo}1, what repo? 09:48 Also, Fourk improves on the NH4 interface by allowing you to turn off extrawin (the window that shows e.g. help info at times). 09:49 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) killed the Master Assassin, on T:44306 09:49 <{Demo}1> gnollhack 09:49 and what is that 09:49 stennowork: check reddit 09:49 imma look it up 09:49 foudn it 09:49 oh boy 09:49 is it on hdf yet? :P 09:49 https://github.com/hyvanmielenpelit/GnollHack 09:49 no 09:49 <@malor> chiptorean can't wear boots 🙂 09:49 thanks 09:49 [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Rog Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:44309 09:49 they only made windows binaries for it 09:50 <{Demo}1> its some goofy finnish mentaql health non profits pet 09:50 linux build is borked 09:50 [hdf-us] [nh370] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 521 points, T:1044, killed by a gas spore's explosion 09:50 <{Demo}1> is it? fuck 09:50 aosdict was going to compile it, its not configured for *nix 09:50 <{Demo}1> can u fix it? 09:50 'janne-hmp', never heard of them 09:50 <{Demo}1> thats finnish for some-one 09:50 wait, based on which nethack 09:50 it's basically slashem. adding tons of items, spells, monsters 09:50 and not all that much else? 09:50 apparently they're going to release a version for macOS and linux soon 09:50 stenno codebase is 3.6.2 beta I think 09:50 yeah they're going to release *binaries*. no thanks 09:50 Is a binary-only release of NetHack even legal? 09:51 jonadab: The source is public so probably. 09:51 aosdict|work: The _modified_ source is public? 09:51 Based on NetHack 3.6.2. 09:51 good good 09:51 ... do variants need to distribute vanilla along with their variant? 09:51 what puts me off on this variant - right off the bat they want donations 09:52 heh. WE WORK FOR FREE 09:52 :) 09:52 <{Demo}1> they r a finnish non profit and u can just say no 09:52 <@malor> Who is doing this variant? 09:52 <{Demo}1> like what r the finnish gonna do, be cold at u? 09:52 some dudes from Finland 09:52 Cast brand new high-level spells such as Wish 09:52 seems balanced 09:53 <{Demo}1> sounds like slashem 09:53 they ask for feedback on balance 09:53 a healer starts with a de-petrification spell 09:53 <@malor> is it a company? Or just some dude? 09:53 <{Demo}1> this variant sounds potentially dope 09:53 but balancing after the fact is the slashem philosophy 09:53 @malor looks like a small team 09:53 <{Demo}1> can get linux build working? 09:53 features now, balance later 09:53 spellcasting is wayyy different 09:53 <@malor> interesting. 09:53 aosdict|work: No, variants don't need to distribute vanilla. As I understand it, they only need to distribute the source that they are built from. 09:53 <@malor> is it playable "online" (i.e. REAL) or just via downloading it? 09:54 (And the license...) 09:54 @malor right now its just windows binary 09:54 also, i started in a room with a co-aligned altar and a chest called hothraxxa's stash with some stuff in it 09:54 <{Demo}1> and the source code 09:54 just invited them to #hardfought on reddit 09:54 <@malor> interesting. 09:54 cool 09:54 lets see if they come 09:54 <@malor> nice good idea stennowork 09:55 cool 09:55 honestly what they're doing seems a bit like KR Cartographer 09:55 maybe KR Cartographer is one of these guys 09:55 definitely interesting, i will play some more locally. i want to see how it handles my evilhack.rc 09:55 <@malor> what is KR cart? 09:55 which is my best tuned atm 09:55 discord user 09:56 "Over 100 new X", for several values of X, feels like Slash'EM Extended to me. Sans shoes, hopefully. 09:56 except I don't think they're the same person because KR is still at the ideas stage 09:56 finkel IS einhorn! 09:56 is that a WoW reference 09:56 no 09:56 ace ventura (movie) 09:57 oh 09:57 Oh, I see, there's a git repo. That solves the legality issue. 09:57 there is a big beast in hearthstone, which spawns a 'finkle einhorn' when its killed 09:57 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4fI3TruAOw 09:57 <@malor> are you guys just guessing they based it off slashem? Or is that for sure? 09:57 its based off of 3.6.2 09:57 <{Demo}1> it isnt based on slashem 09:57 so there is no relation to slash'em 09:57 <{Demo}1> its just conceptually sinmilar 09:57 <@malor> Ok, thanks stennowork 09:58 <@malor> I see, my misunderstanding the comments. 09:58 there is no relation to slash'em except the general philosophy seems to be adding lots of new stuff with little regard for balance 09:59 <{Demo}1> I see no new roles..? 09:59 <@malor> well balance isn't exactly a requirement since some role+race should be easy and some should be hard. 09:59 gnome is out, gnoll is in 09:59 in my mind, nethack gnomes look like orcs 09:59 @malor dunno how role/race balance is changed, but things like "added a spell of wish" are clearly not really thought out 10:00 well 1.3d had spell of genocide... 10:00 maybe its balanced by permanet pw loss 10:00 <@malor> maybe it does something like drain attributes (a lot) or something. 10:00 like, 200 PW cost, 100 maxpw permanently lost 10:01 <{Demo}1> thats waht slex does with wishing 10:01 I guess we'll have to read the code 10:01 <{Demo}1> can i just adapt xnh makefiles for this? 10:01 <@malor> I've had very few games where I didn't finish with a wish or two to spare anyway. 10:01 no you can't 10:01 <@malor> where are you finding the "changes from nethack" which you guys are looking at? 10:01 @malor github 10:01 https://github.com/hyvanmielenpelit/GnollHack/wiki/Detailed-Features 10:01 the problem is the first commit isn't from vanilla 10:02 so if they changed anything from vanilla in the first commit it could fly under the radar 10:02 -!- AntiGulp has joined #hardfought 10:02 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v AntiGulp] by ChanServ 10:03 "ogres and pomegranates give constitution" 10:03 wat 10:03 AntiGulp: check reddit 10:03 Logging onto IRC from a bus because Gnollhack discussion is happening 10:03 Oh, I saw 10:03 ah you saw already 10:03 hah 10:04 AntiGulp i updated splice last night on all the servers 10:04 AntiGulp they're moving in on your territory 10:04 the slashem 3.6 10:04 K2: Oh no… that one still had a debug line left in 10:04 <{Demo}1> warn msearle lol 10:04 ah 10:04 Players regenerate mana at the rate of MaxMana/450 per turn. Replenishment doubles that. 10:04 uh 10:05 so if you have Pw:10, 45 turns for 1 pw? 10:05 aosdict: Eh, I honestly don’t see this as SLASH’EM 3.6 at all. It feels like it’s diverged far enough from the base gameplay that it’s something else entirely. 10:05 -!- Bliss56 has joined #hardfought 10:05 paranoid_water_walk 10:05 <{Demo}1> slashem would add more roles 10:05 wodner if they also have paranoid_lava_valk 10:05 walk lol 10:05 valks shouldn't be paranoid of lava given their question 10:06 QUEST 10:06 valks *should* be paranoid of lava! 10:06 too much coffee today 10:06 I live for the Orc and the Pie reference. That’s gold 10:06 dex increases AC - that sounds familiar 10:06 thats slashem 10:06 <{Demo}1> " Zruty is now in 'Y'." slashem confirmed 10:06 There is a warning prompt, when you try to put a bag into a bag. 10:06 (also a modified version of that in evilhack) 10:06 I personally really don’t like female characters having their strength penalized. I thought we were past that : / 10:07 what?? 10:07 yeah i saw that 10:07 bad idea 10:07 wtf? 10:07 how to get people not to play your variant, exhibit A 10:07 well i will play not that 10:07 !tell AntiGulp thanks! No biggie, I'm proud of my astralsplats. AFAIK, only Rodney and Quest Nemesis are covetous. How did the player monsters end up that way? 10:07 No worries, bouquet, I've got this! 10:07 [hdf-us] [nh370] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 233 points, T:512, killed by a coyote, while frozen by a potion 10:07 exhibit B is making it unbuildable on public servers 10:07 ohai bouquet 10:07 AntiGulp: Message from bouquet at 2020-01-23 10:07 EST: thanks! No biggie, I'm proud of my astralsplats. AFAIK, only Rodney and Quest Nemesis are covetous. How did the player monsters end up that way? 10:08 bouquet: I accidentally swapped a few MH and M3 flags. They’re the same size, so the game compiled just fine and didn’t warn me. Coincidentally, MH_HUMAN happened to get read as M3_COVETOUS. 10:08 i was looking at that 10:09 darn humans, ruining everything 10:09 how you got away with a clean compile, no idea 10:09 [hdf-us] [un] post163 (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 919 points, T:848, killed by a falling object 10:09 because they're all ints 10:09 ^ 10:09 ah 10:09 I dunno how you would enforce typing on that. make them enums and make struct permonst use enums instead of int types? 10:10 <{Demo}1> hmm my attempt to build gnollhack on linux ha failed 10:11 hopefully 3.7 will bring lua-based permonst and object definitions 10:12 aosdict|work: Oh god please 10:12 I need that 10:12 it's been mentioned as something that would be nice but might not happen 10:12 Overall, I don’t feel great about GnollHack yet. The penalizing female character strength for a charisma bonus really bothers me, the windows binary only is strange, and asking for donations for a nethack variant feels weird to me. 10:12 the donations isn't as bad as NetHack Legacy 10:12 Ugh, I remember that 10:13 <{Demo}1> if its any good and someone gets a linux build working could it be hosted on hdf? 10:13 but yes, every variant dev so far isn't cool with the idea 10:13 {Demo}1 most likely not 10:13 well i wont play it until that sexist bullshit is gone 10:13 the female stats thing, instant no-go 10:13 -!- ichbinmiah has joined #hardfought 10:13 yup 10:14 found grayswandir on dlvl1 yesterday. I never get that weapon when I'm a valk or knight, only when I'm chaotic. 10:14 maybe we can talk with them if they join #hardfought 10:14 that'd be good 10:14 i remember we had similar situations with slex when it was first announced 10:15 side topic - Star Trek: Picard debuts tonight! 10:15 I don't think even the original D&D considered genders differently for stats, did it? 10:15 <{Demo}1> and then u realized that amy was crazy and that somehow that made it not only ok, but hilarious? 10:15 bouquet 1st edition might have 10:15 i'd need to look 10:15 the pen & paper RPG's usually put a lot of emphasis on gender equality 10:15 I'd have to go to my parents basement to find my old books. 10:16 I don’t… think 1e did? Honestly, 1e is the only edition of D&D that I haven’t played at some point in my life. 10:16 Oh gosh, I have to watch Star Trek: Picard. 10:16 {Demo}1 the only issue i had with slex was that amy had a lot of comments and in-game stuff that was insulting to other varient devs and the devteam 10:16 is it with patrick steward? 10:16 *variant 10:16 stenno yes 10:16 {Demo}1, i think she removed some offending parts 10:16 [hdf-us] [dnh] post163 (Kni Clk Fem Law), 754 points, T:916, slipped while mounting a saddled pony 10:16 actually i think Tangles cleaned it up for server use? 10:17 amy did at my request 10:17 ah 10:17 it as basically 'if you want this hosted on hardfought, fix this this and this' 10:17 *was 10:18 stennowork: Yup, Patrick Stewart is in it! 10:18 <{Demo}1> would anyone really complain if slex had messages talking shit about nethack legacy though :P 10:18 love that dude 10:18 and there's appearances from other actors from TNG also 10:18 i think he is a genuinly awesome person 10:18 and voyager 10:18 remember 7 of 9? 10:18 Yup, seven of nine is back! 10:18 yeah 10:18 she's in it 10:18 haha awesome 10:18 what about riker 10:18 * AntiGulp is now revealing herself as a huge star trek nerd 10:18 riker 10:18 and deanna troi 10:19 and data 10:19 bring back wesley! 10:19 oh wow 10:19 lol wil wheaton 10:19 he would like to be in that 10:19 <@John VI> The real twist, the entire dungeon was just a Q trick 10:19 yeah i have a big giant nerd boner 10:19 I think the point from the beginning in D&D was that you're a "hero". Whether you're a female or male hero you're obviously in the top 0.0000001% of your race and have optimal stats that align with your class. 10:19 i cant stand up 10:19 love this shit 10:20 been into star trek since i was 4 yrs old watching the original series with my dad 10:20 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:20 <@malor> 1st edition did have less strength for female 10:20 [hdf-us] [spl] post163 (Wiz Gul Mal Neu), 134 points, T:310, killed by a bear trap 10:20 <@John VI> Star Trek is great 10:20 <@malor> That was the only one. As they had no bonus for female at all so just strictly worse 10:20 I just hope it will not suck 10:21 i dont think Stewart would have agreed to come back if the story wasnt top notch 10:21 thanks, malor. I've been googling for that. 10:21 gtg 10:21 -!- AntiGulp has quit [Quit: *dissolves into golden butterflies*] 10:21 <@John VI> He was playing a poop emoji in the Emoji Movie 10:21 we do not talk about the emoji movie 10:23 I miss the old star trek movies where story revolved around philosophical points instead of blowing shit up. TOS and TNG were my favorites. 10:23 <@John VI> Same 10:24 first contact <3 10:24 BORG 10:24 locutus of borg or w/e he's called 10:24 and this is why I'm jaded about all popular culture. 10:25 [hdf-us] [nh370] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 811 points, T:1381, killed by a snake 10:26 The problem with the Star Trek franchise is Nemesis. I mean, Nemesis was a fantastic movie, and from a literary perspective, killing off Data was absolutely the right thing to do, because his character was pretty much fully explored. 10:26 -!- Bliss56 has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 10:27 But it creates this dilemma, afterward, where you can't make another movie that comes after Nemesis, because you either have to make it without the most beloved character, or else you have to take the cheesy way out and turn B4 into the new Data, which forces you to focus on Data's already-fully-explored character some more, which is absolutely the wrong thing to do. 10:28 The really correct solution probably would've been to go a hundred years or more after Nemesis and create an entirely new cast of characters, but you can't do that in a movie, because you've only got 90 minutes. You need at least two seasons of TV episodes with the new characters before people start to get real feels for them. 10:29 They never found a good solution for this, and the franchise basically died. 10:30 which franchise? 10:30 Star Trek. 10:31 no, because picard, discovery, and there's supposed to be another series in the works 10:31 your definition of death and mine must not be compatible 10:31 They tried to solve it by going the opposite direction, and doing a prequel (Enterprise), but while a prequel can be reasonable in a movie context, an entire TV series done as a prequel has serious issues. 10:32 Nothing that has been done since Nemesis has been anywhere near as popular as TNG/DS9 were in their day. 10:33 <@ChrisANG> I feel like the problem is that the writing on Voyager and Enterprise just wasn't very good. 10:33 hmm there was a star trek movie i watched, with spock 10:33 And THEN they let J.J. Abrams touch it, and he broke The One Cardinal Rule of Star Trek (single canon), and I have no further interest in the franchise AT ALL after that. 10:33 and at the end, there was spock talking with a whale? 10:33 was super sad for me when i was a kid 10:33 <@ChrisANG> Enterprise was far enough in the past that they probably could have made it work. 10:33 stennowork: STIV:TVH. 10:34 I'm surprised how quick the gnollhack discussion veered into star trek 10:34 <@ChrisANG> You might be combining two movies, there. 10:34 Star Trek is more interesting than GnollHack. 10:34 ah that was it 10:34 hmm 10:34 wait 10:34 was thhat the one where spock dies? 10:34 probably not 10:34 <@ChrisANG> Three movies? 10:34 i'm glad star trek is finally writing events in the future past TNG and not in the past 10:35 haha 10:35 No, he dies at the end of, umm, II. 10:35 STII:TWOK. 10:35 s/past/beyond 10:35 <@ChrisANG> He dies in in the 2nd movie (Khan), comes back in the next one, and then they do the whale thing in the movie after that. 10:35 ok 10:35 jonadab they cant go too far in the future otherwise they couldnt have picard back :) 10:35 i think it was specifically the whale movie 10:35 <@ChrisANG> The first movie has a space cloud and a lady with no pants. 10:35 Honestly, those three movies can be watched together in a single sitting, if you have all day. 10:35 but i agree, i'd like to see a far future star trek 10:35 lol 10:36 don't remember that one, maybe i didn't watch it 10:36 The first movie, ST:TMP, wasn't very good, objectively. 10:36 VGER 10:36 Though it had a lot of stuff that, at the time, passed for special effects. By which I mean, a flashing light. For hours. 10:37 II - IV were good. 10:37 yes 10:37 And VI was pretty good. 10:37 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 10:37 And then you get into TNG-cast ones. 10:37 those were alright 10:37 nemesis, meh 10:37 the one with the borg and travel back to earths past, good 10:38 I love that Viceroy's voice, though. "Enterprise. We are the Reman warbird scimitar." 10:38 K2: First Contact. 10:38 yeah 10:38 jonadab: 100%. Abrams was the wrong person for Trek 10:38 I think that was the second TNG-cast one, after Generations. 10:38 bouquet: They should've let Abrams do a Batman movie. 10:38 yeah the star trek reboot, 1st movie good, 2nd movie good, 3rd wtf 10:38 or just point a camera at exploding barrels for 90 minutes. 10:39 The Batman franchise couldn't really be significantly harmed by yet another reboot. 10:39 i found the new one where they show how they were cadets in the star fleet really crappy 10:39 No matter how bad. 10:39 then again i am not exactly a star trek nerd 10:39 but i diddn't like it as a film 10:39 I'm tempted to say that, _as a film_, the best ST film might be Insurrection. 10:40 Though The Wrath of Kahn has some things going for it as well. 10:40 I'd like to see a Batman movie in the original Adam West style written by Charlie Kaufman. Dark and silly at the same time. 10:41 is that the one where they have the 'bat xxx' things 10:41 bouquet: Starring Jim Carey? 10:41 all kind of stupid 'bat' things 10:41 Or, no, wait. Adam Sandler as Batman. 10:41 That could work! 10:42 christian bale for batman was awesome, then again i am a huge christian bale fan 10:42 Couldn't be that much more ridiculous than that one Penguin. 10:42 De Vito 10:43 <@John VI> >Danny Devito penguin 10:43 <@John VI> I'M THE PENGUIN MAN, I EAT PENGUINS 10:44