00:00 -!- introsp3ctive has joined #hardfought 00:03 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor on Dlvl:13, on T:29538 00:08 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) had Werebane bestowed upon her by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:29874 00:12 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) wished for "magic marker", on T:29990 00:13 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 00:14 [hdf-us] [nh362] RedArrow (Sam Hum Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a gray dragon, on T:25723 00:18 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:19 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) entered the Planes, on T:30451 00:19 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor in the End Game, on T:30452 00:21 [hdf-us] [nh362] RedArrow (Sam Hum Fem Law), 418297 points, T:26297, petrified by a chickatrice 00:21 !tell AntiGulp Shouldn't labs have a furnace? 00:21 Will do, aosdict! 00:23 -!- eraserhead has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:32 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) genocided class U, on T:30925 00:32 !tell AntiGulp You("the image of %s shimmers and vanishes!") seems wrong 00:32 I'm on it, aosdict. 00:32 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed Famine, on T:30935 00:33 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed Famine, on T:30969 00:35 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed Death, on T:31044 00:36 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed Pestilence, on T:31096 00:36 grand tour \o/ 00:37 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed the high priest, on T:31111 00:37 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 2206105 points, T:31115, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/b/bouquet/xnethack/dumplog/1549916063.xnh.txt 00:38 finally 00:38 and the purple worm and the purple worm and the purple worm and the purple worm and the purple worm and the purple worm and the purple worm 00:38 considering how many artifacts and gems I took I'm surprised I didn't break 3M 00:38 first weaponless conduct. 00:38 after an astral splat, even. 00:38 thanks for making weaponless conduct easier, aosdict! 00:39 * aosdict tips hat 00:40 -!- sweval has joined #hardfought 00:40 gadzooks, it's taken forever to get weaponless conduct. 00:40 I'm going to bed. 00:43 !tell AntiGulp bug with roaring: since the aggravate() call is in growl_sound, something that roars while you're hallucinating doesn't cause aggravation. 00:43 I'm on it, aosdict. 00:48 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:55 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Mon Hum Mal Law) had Snickersnee bestowed upon him by Shan Lai Ching, on T:11235 01:59 ah, someone fixed the leather jacket thing, good 02:05 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Mon Hum Mal Law) completed Sokoban, on T:12824 02:08 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Mon Hum Mal Law), 37875 points, T:12862, killed by a leocrotta 02:08 -!- sweval has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:14 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 02:18 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 03:30 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:51 -!- Tangles has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:51 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:08 -!- phinxy has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:13 -!- Gaelan has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 04:18 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:21 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 04:21 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 04:25 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:53 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 04:58 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:11 -!- Muad has joined #hardfought 05:21 -!- phinxy has joined #hardfought 05:34 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 05:42 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:48 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.2] 06:16 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:15020 06:21 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) performed his first genocide (class h), on T:15192 06:29 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) genocided class L, on T:16040 06:30 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:40 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed greased fixed bag of holding", on T:17855 06:50 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased +3 pair of speed boots", on T:18605 06:57 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 07:06 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:19504 07:12 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13 [hdf-us] [nh362] davidkent (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1095 07:27 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) polymorphed his first object, on T:21680 07:29 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 07:30 [hdf-us] [nh362] davidkent (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 1756 points, T:2295, killed by a Mordor orc, while sleeping 07:50 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Medusa, on T:22964 07:53 -!- yieriel has joined #hardfought 08:01 -!- yieriel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:06 -!- phinxy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:06 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) entered Gehennom, on T:24076 08:33 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:35 [hdf-us] [nh362] AlbertB (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 934 points, T:3496, killed by a rothe 08:41 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) hit with a wielded weapon for the first time, on T:25991 08:43 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 615 points, T:1377, killed by a pony 08:47 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Und Dop Fem Neu), 2036 points, T:2730, killed by something while blind 09:00 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 881 points, T:1697, killed by a dwarf 09:01 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Master Kaen, on T:27463 09:01 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Und Dop Fem Neu), 1775 points, T:1668, killed by a gnome warrior 09:02 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:27541 09:08 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 520 points, T:1712, killed by a giant bat 09:11 hi 09:11 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 09:12 * K2 pets Beholder 09:12 make install 09:12 whoops 09:12 :) 09:12 <{Demo}4> lol 09:12 i've done that before 09:12 <{Demo}4> is that how we say good morning now? 09:12 or a series of nethack commands in the irc window 09:13 why doesn't Beholder run my makefile commands?? 09:13 hahah 09:13 Beholder - fix all bugs in nethack. GO 09:19 [hdf-us] [nh362] samiam (Arc Hum Mal Law) rejected atheism by offering a gecko corpse on an altar of Quetzalcoatl, on T:4866 09:20 <{Demo}4> I have a great idea for a secret project 09:21 <{Demo}4> hdf plays nethack but nobody knows what's happening 09:21 <{Demo}4> like nobody knows that it's hdf playing nethack 09:21 wasnt that HDFBot from last year? 09:23 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 2369 points, T:3475, killed by a garter snake 09:23 <{Demo}4> no this is like twitch plays nethack but from hdf irc 09:24 <{Demo}4> ppl will spam commands if they know what's happening and that'll be annoying 09:30 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha) had Orcrist bestowed upon him by Set, on T:1392 09:32 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Und Dop Fem Neu), 388 points, T:563, killed by a hobbit 09:33 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 944 points, T:2288, killed by a dwarf 09:34 heh 09:39 {Demo}4 09:40 check out my latest commits to evilhack 09:41 -!- stennowork has joined #hardfought 09:41 -!- stennowork has left #hardfought 09:43 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha) performed his first genocide (disenchanter), on T:2998 09:43 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha) genocided class L, on T:3003 09:47 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 2020 points, T:3878, killed by a giant ant 09:50 <{Demo}4> is this some cruel joke? 09:51 nope 09:51 it is Real™ 09:51 play testing one now 09:51 <{Demo}4> but... centaurs can't wear leather armor I don't think 09:51 they can in evilhack 09:51 <{Demo}4> oh I only looked at the most recent 09:52 look at the last 4 or so 09:56 <{Demo}4> yeah hmm 09:56 Should have genocided Team Ant 10:01 {Demo}4 - yeah hmm what :P 10:01 i'd like to hear any ideas you or anyone may have 10:02 <{Demo}4> I'm not sure what the goal of evilhack is 10:02 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:03 it says it in the description 10:03 'NetHack variant that attempts to merge the best features of GruntHack and SporkHack onto the 3.6.x codebase, along with some new unique custom content' 10:03 and since its a game 10:03 the overall goal would be, to be fun 10:03 and challenging 10:04 <{Demo}4> so what's gonna be the defining drawbacks of centaur other than no feet? 10:04 they suck at casting for starters 10:05 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Und Dop Fem Neu), 3479 points, T:4334, killed by a rabid rabbit 10:06 <{Demo}4> as a valk, why shouldn't I go centaur? 10:06 they are large so they cant ride anything 10:07 ok so, cant wear boots, suck at casting, cant have a steed 10:07 what other limitation do you think a centaur should have? 10:07 [hdf-us] [nh362] AlbertB (Tou Hum Mal Neu) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:3144 10:07 <{Demo}4> not sure 10:07 <{Demo}4> that might be enough 10:08 I think it'd be a bit ironic that centaurs wouldn't be able to wear speed boots, when in vanilla they're faster than you. 10:08 <{Demo}4> I think I might add a formian race to ndnh, not sure 10:09 Andrio they do start with intrinsic speed 10:09 Mm 10:09 yeah they do need another limiting factor i think 10:09 brb work calls 10:11 <{Demo}4> they should be able to gallop, like when you kick a steed 10:13 <{Demo}4> definitely for a short time with a cooldown and hunger implications 10:20 -!- lel has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27 hmm that would be neat 10:28 <{Demo}4> not sure what kind of big drawback to add 10:29 <{Demo}4> gods might not like you too much cause u do too much astrology 10:29 <{Demo}4> not sure 10:29 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 10:30 hmm i know... maybe no cloaks either 10:31 cloak or robe would go past your feet as a humanoid, that'd be awkward for a centaur 10:32 err past your waist 10:32 down close to your feet 10:33 <{Demo}4> I dunno 10:33 <{Demo}4> in dnh cloaks can fit sizes smaller and larger than the size of the cloak, which makes sense 10:34 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:34 <{Demo}4> also banning armor pieces usually doesn't make for a very interesting drawback 10:35 hah... google 'centaur wearing a cloak' 10:36 <{Demo}4> what even/lol 10:37 <{Demo}4> can cavemen play as a large race? 10:37 another drawback is that I didnt allow centaurs to be any kind of casting role except monk, and even they arent primary casters 10:37 yes 10:37 cavemen can be giants 10:37 cavepersons rather 10:38 maybe i should allow a centaur priest... they'd have a tough go at it due to low int/wis stats 10:38 <{Demo}4> you might want to adjust their home level 10:38 centaur isnt a role, its a race 10:39 <{Demo}4> no, caveman 10:39 oh 10:39 that one corridor 10:39 <{Demo}4> look at what dnh does, yeah 10:39 i think unnethack adjusted that too 10:40 yeah good call 10:42 <{Demo}4> you could make centaurs max resistance percent for something that makes sense cap out at like 50% or something, idk 10:43 centaur priests, yes or no? 10:43 <{Demo}4> why not 10:43 yeah thats what i was leaning towards 10:43 that would be a challenge 10:44 in fact some would argue that all races have some sort of shaman/priest 10:45 <{Demo}4> I can think of one person, but maybe not for that reason 10:48 <{Demo}4> why are cavemen able to lawful? 10:49 no idea 10:49 <{Demo}4> oh I see 10:49 <{Demo}4> ugh 10:49 ok centaurs can be priests now. also added elves to be able to be knights (like spokrhack) 10:49 <{Demo}4> caveman is arguably the most confused role in nethack 10:50 <{Demo}4> part of the time the game shows them as like og the caveman, part of the game they are treated as babylonians 10:50 <@luxidream> isn't this evilhack 10:50 yup 10:50 <@luxidream> just add more diagonal crawl spaces 10:51 yeah thats the plan 10:51 <{Demo}4> so you have to poly? 10:51 well, fix the one where you have to squeeze through 10:51 because giant caveman 10:52 cavemen are supposed to be prehistoric, which makes it hard to come up with an appropriate pantheon 10:52 <{Demo}4> they are treated as babylonian many places 10:53 <{Demo}4> in their gods, the fact they can be lawful, their quest, their quest artifact 10:53 either you give them functional names like "The Giver of Blood" or "Boopy" or nonsense grunting words 10:54 <{Demo}4> which makes way more sense to me 10:54 which variant was it that fixed the caveman quest level 10:54 wasnt unnethack or grunthack 10:55 you'd think i would have fixed that for grunthack, they have giants too 10:55 maybe it was fourk 10:56 <{Demo}4> dnh 10:57 yup, fourk did too 10:57 {Demo}4: part of that is that dwarves must be lawful, and dwarves make lots of sense as cavemen 10:58 K2: You may also want to take Fourk's changes to caveman quest text. I'm considering doing that. 10:58 yeah looking at that 10:58 All quest text is now short grunt words. 10:59 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 40 points, T:82, killed by a system shock 11:09 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 1389 points, T:2722, killed by a dwarf, while sleeping 11:14 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 934 points, T:1663, killed by a bolt of cold 11:15 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 11:22 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 11:31 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 11:31 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya] by ChanServ 11:43 I had to share this... our testers asked for some guinea pigs to try some code they wrote. My reply was worthy of a t-shirt quote: https://i.imgur.com/EykreCs.jpg 11:46 rofl 11:57 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 4203 points, T:4477, killed by a human mummy 11:59 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 85 points, T:397, killed by a bolt of lightning 12:09 bleh 12:10 which file is it that determines what each role has for trainable skills 12:10 you'd think it was src/role.c 12:11 it isn't? 12:12 u_init.c 12:12 i'm looking in it again 12:12 ahh 12:13 thanks 12:13 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 2676 points, T:3834, killed by a dwarf lord 12:14 yeah plain as day heh 12:14 -!- Muad has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:15 -!- sweval has joined #hardfought 12:17 -!- Muadd has joined #hardfought 12:22 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 1050 points, T:2527, killed by a dwarf 12:23 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 12:28 [hdf-us] [nh362] AlbertB (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 1624 points, T:6456, killed by an Elvenking, while sleeping off a magical draught 12:30 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 12:35 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:36 -!- sweval has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:42 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 1688 points, T:3262, killed by a watchman 12:44 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 12:49 -!- lel has joined #hardfought 12:52 -!- sweval has joined #hardfought 12:53 huh. I thought vanilla 3.6.2 gave everyone basic skill in riding 12:55 or more correctly, the ability to train riding to basic 12:58 nope doesnt look like it 13:01 !role 13:01 bouquet: nethack4 barbarian 13:02 I was just thinking I should play barbarian! 13:06 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:15 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 2599 points, T:4366, killed by a quasit 13:38 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:7642 13:48 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 719 points, T:1297, killed by a dwarf 13:49 <@Tone> K2: Not that I'm aware of. It does make saddles more common 13:53 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha) made his first wish - "blessed rustproof +2 grayswandir", on T:10194 14:01 @Tone I added that bit to evilhack (all roles can get to basic in riding) 14:01 your minion that appears before you on astral has changed, being able to ride is a Thing™ 14:06 K2: YANI: if your steed dies on astral and you then #chat to the other riders, they mock you for losing your steed. :D 14:07 <@Tone> Cool 😄 14:08 you're not going to have time to chat in evilhack stral 14:08 *astral 14:08 more important considerations ;) 14:10 [hdf-us] [nh362] davidkent (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 848 points, T:1554, killed by a gnome king 14:12 [hdf-us] [nh362] davidkent (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 7 points, T:99, killed by a carnivorous bag 14:31 -!- elenmirie_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31 -!- tacco\unfoog has joined #hardfought 14:44 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 14:44 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu) averted death, on T:2887 14:45 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 1711 points, T:2971, killed by a werejackal 14:57 -!- Gaelan has joined #hardfought 14:59 -!- phinxy has joined #hardfought 15:06 [hdf-us] [nh362] eraserhead97 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 194 points, T:528, killed by a gas spore's explosion 15:12 k2: if you do that sporkhack thing with angels & magic missiles & reflection i will come down there and beat you with partly eaten chickatrice corpse 15:19 Angels with magic missile attacks and reflection, and the sparkle setting is ignored (effectively, always on) on Astral. 15:19 hothraxxa: thats already in evilhack 15:19 from a few weeks ago 15:21 the magic missile bit - https://github.com/k21971/EvilHack/commit/08b519a7ed2d5c7d81dacebf938da17e08e6228a 15:22 ^ affects monsters too, didnt in spork 15:22 reflection bits - https://github.com/k21971/EvilHack/commit/92e32005a47c480f2c6a536196ca8f8a3be6dcff 15:22 <{Demo}4> ok fiq 15:22 hey now 15:22 that was uncalled for 15:22 <{Demo}4> at the "affects monsters too" 15:22 now you've hurt my feelings 15:24 :P 15:24 GruntHack also had significant monster/player symetry. 15:24 I mean, monsters can wish, famously. 15:25 thats coming 15:25 So it would be logical for EvilHack to continue the trend of monster/player symetry. 15:25 Make monsters capable of riding, give the Riders their steeds, ... 15:25 thats already in 15:25 Heck, give Nazgul their steeds. 15:25 that too 15:25 Good. 15:25 :) 15:26 If you're gonna make a variant that's evil to players, it might as well also be technically interesting. 15:28 if you get some time jonadab look through the commits i've made so far 15:28 riders have steeds, nazguls have their 'fell beast' 15:28 i'll be right down as soon as i find some gloves 15:28 you get a steed at astral too, because technically the player is the fourth Rider 15:29 somebody has riders on nightmares 15:29 sprok> splice? one of them 15:29 splicehack, but its the correct horses from lore 15:29 same with evilhack 15:30 hm. maybe it's nazgul who ride nightmares? 15:30 yes i think that's it 15:30 fell beast 15:30 splicehack took that bit from evilhack 15:31 i swear i fought some monster or other riding a nightmare 15:31 dnethack maybe? 15:31 i didnt know any other variant allowed monsters to ride other monsters 15:31 when antigulp made that a thing... so awesome 15:31 nope, never got that far in dnethack 15:31 had to be splice 15:34 So Death on a pale horse, Famine on a black horse, and the player gets red? 15:34 ah. it's headless horsemen 15:35 yup 15:35 to both jonadab and hothraxxa 15:36 <{Demo}4> slamhack 15:37 time to go to the supermarket 15:37 i am making some more progress with my nethack thing 15:38 \o/ 15:38 stenno: Wait, are you gonna be a variant author too? 15:38 nah 15:39 imma tell in ~20 minutes when i'm back from the supermarket 15:47 hah 15:47 i know what stenno is working on 15:47 but i wont steal his thunder :P 15:52 jonadab: it's an api like interhack but written in node 15:53 lol K2 15:53 [hdf-us] [4k] none (Waab) (Bar Gia Mal Cha), 10104 points, T:3765, killed by vicarious suffering 16:02 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 16:03 -!- raisse is now known as Guest21338 16:03 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse 16:04 Ah, a wrapper. 16:05 Also: Eww, you referred to Node.js in a non-disparaging, non-ironic way. 16:05 -!- Guest21338 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:08 <{Demo}4> node good im looking forward to doing dumb shit with this api 16:12 currently still working at the window abstraction 16:16 but i can do some nice things already 16:16 so far everything works as expected 16:16 K2, hmm, do some of those if (Half_spell_damage) checks make monsters benefit from your half spell damage artifact? 16:17 i would imagine so 16:17 only things that confer half spell damage are artifacts though correct? 16:18 yes 16:18 pretty rare case 16:18 would be something like the wizard stealing the EotA 16:18 Note that something like if (Half_spell_damage) probably checks whether the _player_ has half spell damage. 16:19 Though, hmm, that makes an odd sort of sense: if you have half spell damage, your spells do half as much damage :-) <-- EPI 16:20 hah 16:21 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 16:21 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v ais523] by ChanServ 16:29 you know 16:29 it's not easy to teach someone programming who has literally no experience with it 16:29 when you have intuitive understanding of it 16:29 no kidding 16:30 my brother is undergoing a course in programming 16:30 he asks me for help sometimes when he has trouble 16:30 and it's, for me, the most trivial of things 16:30 so it's hard to explain sometimes :P 16:31 -!- Tangles has joined #hardfought 16:31 -!- mode/#hardfought [+o Tangles] by ChanServ 16:35 I know this too 16:35 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:35 i think it has a lot to do with exposure & genuine interest 16:36 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 16:36 yeah 16:36 I get the experience that he mostly does this because he has to 16:36 not because he actually cares about it 16:36 like, he genuinely tries to solve the problems 16:36 I find it helps to have started 35 years ago 16:36 but he cares little for programming otherwise 16:37 i'd say it has to do with a failure to grasp logic 16:37 I don't really believe that 16:37 that's been my experience 16:37 I mean, yes 16:37 people who fail to grasp logic will ultimately be terrible programmers 16:37 but I don't think my brother is one of those 16:37 but rather that he simply doesn't care for programming 16:43 FIQ: my roomate in college (early 90's) worked at Microsoft. He used to help me with my programming. His best advice ever? "Drink a beer before you #define anything". 16:44 yeah that's it exactly 16:44 have to really want to do it, or ur gunna be forever a terrible programmer 16:44 [hdf-us] [nh362] eraserhead97 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 647 points, T:1174, killed by a water demon 16:45 (at some point in your life, i mean) 16:46 bouquet: ha 16:46 ballmer peak 16:46 -!- Gaelan has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:47 what, even numerical constants? 16:47 although I like to use enum for those when I can, sometimes you need #define beause of the inability to set the type of an enum constant 16:48 -!- Gaelan has joined #hardfought 16:50 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:58 Clearly I don't drink enough beer because I suck at programming. 16:59 heh 16:59 i'm getting a little bit better 16:59 slooooooowly 16:59 It helps to have a project. Those C courses that just teach fundamentals are hard to endure. 17:00 currentlly just figured out how grunthack makes most every object in the game a target for erosion proofing 17:00 evilhack is my self-imposed project heh 17:00 bouquet: Ideally you'd want to develop an interest in roguelikes, thus learning pre-ANSI C in 1994... oops 17:00 ok time to go see you all later 17:01 I learned C pre-1994 but it seems to have changed. Also, I haven't employed those skills (or any serious programming) in 20+ years so I'm hella rusty. 17:01 I can read it, but I can't write it. A common problem I've heard. 17:03 C's changes aren't all that large, although some of them are really nice 17:03 if you write post-1989 C in vanilla NetHack, though, someone will shout at you 17:03 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:03 I originally learned Borland C, in school. 17:03 Some time around 1995 or 1996. 17:04 Borland C was C89, though, wasn't it? just with a set of nonstandard libraries bundled that sort-of worked as a second standard 17:04 Dunno. I forgot all that. 17:04 I remember the manuals tried to get you to use conio.h rather than stdio.h 17:04 Re-learned C later (around 1999) using DJGPP, then set it aside, forgot it _again_. 17:04 And then re-relearned it by working with the NetHack codebase. 17:05 This time I think it is mostly sticking. 17:05 ais523: really nice> oh, sure, I mean, I _should_ have learned ANSI C, but since the one C program I was really interested in in 1994 was NetHack... 17:05 Pinkbeast: fwiw, NH4 is written in C11 17:05 so you can compare if you like 17:06 Nah, I'm off cargo-culting DCSS's C++ now 17:06 (although most code that's relatively unchanged from vanilla doesn't make use of C11 features) 17:06 I think my favorite thing about the NH4 codebase is msgprintf. There are other things, but I think that's my favorite. 17:07 msgprintf could be written in C89, I think 17:07 it may not be addable to vanilla, though, because it's somewhat wasteful of memory 17:08 less than a kilobyte most of the time, but still, there may be computers that care about that 17:08 if you write post-1989 C in vanilla NetHack, though, someone will shout at you <-- is this for values of "you" meaning exclusively devteam members? because no one yelled at, say, bhaak for doing things like that in unnethack 17:08 aosdict: yes, this is specifically for if you commit something like that to vanilla NetHack 17:08 thus it won't affect anyone other than devteam members and the windowport teams 17:09 Uh, bhaak could not in unnethack write post-1989 C in vanilla NetHack 17:09 (also, if you declared "this windowport is C11 because it only runs on computers with C11 compilers" you'd probably get away with it0 17:09 s/0/)/ 17:09 hmm, C's historically had updates every 10 years or so, is there going to be a C21 coming up? or have people given up on it? 17:12 GSC's source code has 6 string buffers with no consistent usage of them 17:12 the joy of commercial game programming where you have to meet deadlines and functioning code is more important than longterm-maintainable code 17:14 ais523: Seems like every time you update your compiler you get warnings you never saw before, so I'd say *somebody* hasn't given up on C. 17:14 leads to stuff like this: https://github.com/pret/pokecrystal/blob/master/docs/design_flaws.md#getforesttreeframe-works-but-its-still-bad 17:14 Not sure about new official standards, though. 17:14 one of the most well-designed assembly functions I've seen 17:14 ais523: was there a version of C in between 89 and 11 or no? 17:14 aosdict: two, but C99 is the only well-known one 17:15 -!- Gaelan has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 17:15 jonadab: the only recent major warning change in NH4 for me is the mextra thing 17:15 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Cha) rejected atheism by offering a gnomish wizard corpse on an altar of Set, on T:3273 17:15 there's also POSIX C, and all the various versions of that 17:15 but most people don't think of that as a language standard 17:15 -!- Gaelan has joined #hardfought 17:16 POSIX has a C dialect? 17:17 oh, a standard library 17:17 that's a bit different 17:17 oh right C99 17:18 anyway that's a 12 year gap 17:18 FIQ: it has a bunch of restrictions that aren't part of standard C 17:18 like char being 8 bits wide 17:18 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:20 -!- Gaelan has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:20 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Cha) had Cleaver bestowed upon her by Set, on T:3518 17:20 FIQ: The most recent one is "dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasing rules". 17:20 But there were others a while back. 17:20 I anticipate more in the future, if the pattern holds. 17:21 Whenever I upgrade to beowulf. 17:22 jonadab: that's always been disallowed, it's just that compilers have got better at noticing it 17:23 old codebases tend to be full of pointer casting hacks 17:23 Sure, I don't doubt some of the previous warnings may have been things that shouldn't have been coded that way in the first place, too. 17:23 you can reinterpret things as a different type via memcpy 17:24 ... that sounds insane 17:24 or, in some C versions, writing one field of a union then reading another 17:24 I mean, it sounds like it would _work_, if you really kjnow what you're doing, BUT. 17:25 but what? 17:26 But it also sounds like it would be horrifically error prone if you even slightly misthink. 17:26 And likely not great for maintainability. 17:27 what I mean is, if you have char *p and int i, instead of the illegal i = *(int *)p do memcpy(&i, p, sizeof i) 17:27 [hdf-us] [gh] hothraxxa (Rog Orc Fem Cha) had orcish dagger named Grimtooth bestowed upon her by Kos, on T:1928 17:28 I can't even remember whether memcpy is legal or not 17:28 wow! look at this dagger i got 17:28 there is a legal way to do it but it's confusing and unintuitive 17:29 ais523, it's valid to inspect representations via lvalues of character type or memcpy/memmove 17:30 so that lifts restrictions on alignment and aliasing 17:30 OK, so you have to case to char* and use pointer arithmetic on that, then dereference 17:30 which is how naive memcpy implementations work behind the scenes, so that works too 17:31 compilers will actually optimize the memcpy call I pasted to a normal load (that can read unaligned data) 17:31 isn't there also a rule saying that if you can type-pun structs that have the same first few fields some other way (union? pointer cast?) as long as you only inspect those fields? 17:32 yes 17:35 jilles: Isn't there an ord function you can use for that? 17:35 (To get the index number of a character, I mean.) 17:37 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) had Mjollnir bestowed upon him by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:31826 17:37 jonadab, how do you mean? char will convert to int without a cast, or you can cast to unsigned char first 17:37 h. 17:37 (assuming you mean Pascal-style ord) 17:37 Ah. 17:37 Dunno about Pascal, I'm thinking BASIC or Perl style ord. 17:38 The one that tells you 32 if you give it " " 17:38 Most languages have that, and also one (typically chr()) that goes in the other direction. 17:39 Because it's a really common thing to need to do, and very easy for the computer to manage. 17:41 the operation is less meaningful in a Unicode world though 17:42 depending on what your char type is 17:49 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 17:53 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed spellbook of polymorph", on T:33512 17:54 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:05 -!- Muadd is now known as Muad 18:14 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Juiblex, on T:35047 18:14 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) bribed Asmodeus with 1 zorkmid for safe passage, on T:35092 18:16 [hdf-us] [nh362] ShivanHunter (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 cloak of protection", on T:27457 18:20 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Baalzebub, on T:35471 18:25 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 18:25 [hdf-us] [nh362] jcmaxson (Val Hum Fem Law), 781 points, T:2736, killed by a straw golem 18:30 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:35 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:8052 18:35 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed spellbook of charm monster", on T:36255 18:39 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) became Chih Sung-tzu's Envoy of Balance, on T:36618 18:42 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed spellbook of remove curse", on T:36806 19:02 in vanilla is there a guaranteed source of lava besides the plane of fire? 19:03 cant remember 19:04 just quests, I'm pretty sure 19:05 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 19:10 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:31 It's not like you can build magma forges anyway 19:32 in splicehack you can, sort of 19:32 well, they already exist pre-generated 19:36 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha) polymorphed his first object, on T:13334 19:40 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:14519 19:44 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha) changed form for the first time, becoming a leather golem, on T:15071 19:47 -!- realinari has joined #hardfought 19:57 -!- realinari is now known as inari 19:58 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Orcus, on T:38735 20:01 Muad thanks 20:02 -!- inari is now known as realinari 20:02 been testing some stuff with lava and the plane of fire is just a bit too busy 20:03 ah right, the valkyrie quest 20:03 duh 20:08 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:39395 20:09 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:39503 20:14 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 20:16 K2: You can also wish for "lava" 20:17 doh 20:17 just like an altar huh 20:17 most terrain I think 20:17 so you can wish for any dungeon feature i take it 20:17 not walls, or floors 20:17 but actual features yeah 20:17 if you want water you can do "pool" or "moat" 20:20 thanks 20:21 [hdf-us] [nh362] dgoddard (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 43969 points, T:17977, killed by a troll, while paralyzed by a monster 21:06 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 21:07 [hdf-us] [nh362] davidkent (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 699 points, T:922, killed by a potion of acid 21:11 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:26 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 3593 points, T:2827, killed by a chameleon imitating a baluchitherium 21:31 <{Demo}4> slammed 21:37 [hdf-us] [nh362] davidkent (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 283 points, T:1587, killed by a bolt of cold 21:38 [hdf-us] [nh362] fcloud (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Lord Surtur, on T:53836 21:42 [hdf-us] [nh362] fcloud (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:53838 22:02 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 1476 points, T:2502, killed by an orcish arrow 22:04 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 22:08 [hdf-us] [nh362] eraserhead97 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 4223 points, T:3540, killed by a dwarf lord 22:10 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu) murdered Catnip, his faithful kitten, on T:861 22:10 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 283 points, T:861, killed by a gas spore's explosion 22:16 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 93 points, T:246, killed by a water moccasin 22:31 -!- Adeon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:41 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 2059 points, T:2261, killed by an ice vortex 22:53 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 366 points, T:1184, killed by a gas spore's explosion 22:56 [hdf-us] [fh] Booda (catthedd) (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 47074 points, T:6764, killed by a giant ant 23:05 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Cha), 108951 points, T:19324, killed by a rock troll 23:07 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 23:12 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:35 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 2922 points, T:1316, killed by a black unicorn 23:51 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 119 points, T:328, killed by a water moccasin, while reading a book