00:00 <@luxidream> that would be far too powerful 00:00 well, there aren't that many acid potions around. 00:01 which is also the limiting factor on gem alchemy. 00:01 <{Demo}1> check out ndnh gnome alchemy kit patch 00:01 <@luxidream> oh, acid, I can't read. it's not an offensive item, is it? 00:01 <@luxidream> actually, it is 00:02 <@luxidream> still, probably not broken 00:03 <@luxidream> I can't think of a way to exploit brewing outside of the really long and unreliable gain level recipe that takes more resources than what it's worth, and also still requires you to have levitation 00:03 and how about the base system without newts 00:04 <@luxidream> it sounds helpful for having a confusion source for end game if you ever decide to remove forgotten spell confusion 00:05 it would potentially increase the options for smoky farming, since assuming you really want lots of them, you can mass produce fruit juice and ferment into whichever of these 5 types is smoky 00:05 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 17023 points, T:7372, killed by a jaguar 00:07 <@luxidream> you could just make it impossible for those types to be smoky? 00:07 of course, if dissolving newt corpses in acid is a hit, there are other possibilities, like dissolving floating eyes to produce levitation 00:08 YANI ^ 00:08 <@luxidream> shouldn't that produce monster detection 00:08 you could make an argument for that, but it's weaker than the argument for levitation I think 00:08 <@luxidream> I guess they are the only levitating monster 00:09 and floating eyes don't have full monster detection. so a potion made from them probably shouldn't give you extra powers from nowhere 00:10 oddly, the original patch doesn't have lichen or shrieker fermenting into anything. I guess because they're not molds. 00:11 <@luxidream> does it let you squeeze slime molds into water to make fruit juice though 00:11 that was one of the ideas on the roster yes 00:12 it probably wouldn't *ferment*, taking time, though 00:12 more like #dip a slime mold in water -> slime mold is used up, potion instantly becomes juice, you get a message about squeezing the juice out 00:13 it would obviously be diluted juice 00:14 <@luxidream> YANI: if you deliberately dip something into water, it only takes dip to turn it into water. Player dumps out the contents of the bottle and fills it with water. 00:14 <@luxidream> takes 1 dip* 00:15 What if you're deliberately trying to dilute, in order to make it stack with something else? 00:15 aosdict: Sucks to be you / in general if the effect of diluted potions was reduced you wouldn't want to do this and also the worst abuses of alchemy would be fixed 00:16 Pinkbeast: if the effect of diluted potions was reduced, in alchemy mixing? 00:16 Like, if you're dipping diluted healings into speed, you get fewer extra healings? 00:17 On quaffing - most obviously, a diluted potion of *healing grants half the max HP. But yes, also, halve alchemy outputs. 00:17 flagging as YANI since this hasn't actually ever come up ^ 00:18 Diluted gain level gives less XP, diluted cursed gain level leaves you stuck in the floor 00:18 aosdict: Huh, I suggest it often enough I suspect I might be a bore about it 00:18 Maybe it's never been this concrete before. 00:19 Usually I avoid putting up ideas on the list that are too vague. 00:29 doesn't un implement something like that? 00:30 I remember accidentally blanking a huge stack of healing last junethack 00:52 -!- tacco\unfoog has joined #hardfought 00:52 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Law), 18118 points, T:6354, killed by a deeper one 00:53 -!- phinxy has joined #hardfought 00:56 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 464 points, T:593, killed by a bat 00:58 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 00:59 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 121 points, T:260, killed by a hobbit 01:08 [hdf-us] [fh] carl (carlarc) (Mon Elf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed wand of debugging", on T:1 01:08 [hdf-us] [fh] carl (carlarc) (Mon Elf Fem Cha), 1809 points, T:3, escaped, in explore mode 01:09 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 1400 points, T:1465, killed by a jaguar 01:11 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "uncursed amulet of life saving", on T:36640 01:15 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:36674 01:16 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 01:18 -!- eraserhead97 has joined #hardfought 01:20 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (mind flayer), on T:36692 01:21 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:22 <@carlarc> !tell FIQ YANI: if having a quarterstaff in your alternate weapon slot, you automatically switch to it when casting a spell for the bonus (maybe make it an option) 01:22 No worries, @carlarc, I've got this! 01:36 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) killed the invisible Asmodeus, on T:37824 01:48 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) killed Juiblex, on T:38789 01:56 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:56 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya] by ChanServ 01:57 -!- Gaelan has joined #hardfought 01:58 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) bribed Baalzebub with 4 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:39411 02:02 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 345 points, T:710, killed by a gnome lord 02:04 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:05 aosdict: yeah I did see the log ;) but I thought the bug I don't stop complaining about is the (now apparently "fixed", although casting confuse monster on astral is still done at your own risk and monsters can cast it too) bug where monsters read genocide and wipe you out 02:05 LarienTelrunya: Message from PavelB at 2019-01-17 23:48 EST: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/OzhLZKl8/image.png 02:06 @Luxidream: thanks for all the wonderful new scroll names you have brought me ♥ 02:08 <@carlarc> that one's fixed 02:08 <@carlarc> i in fact had a vampire lord blessed genocide @ near me 02:08 I'm dumb and I need to do the nhqdb captcha, What symbol represents a goblin? 02:08 <@carlarc> o 02:08 thanks 02:08 <@carlarc> which meant no more nurses and soldiers, but it wasnt allowed to genocide roles 02:09 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/535717310623776778/unknown.png 02:10 @carlarc: nah the bug was different, it happened when I was on the samurai quest because there are also samurai player monsters and one of them must have been confused I think? so he genocided himself... and me as well 02:10 <@carlarc> oh my god that's great 02:11 or maybe the samurai were just fighting each other and one of them had genocide and thought "hey! I hate that samurai, so I'll get rid of him by reading the scroll! who cares if it also kills me?" 02:11 and because he was a samurai himself, that genocide was permitted 02:12 FIQ said that he had fixed it, but I wonder what would happen if you're on astral with conflict on and something throws a potion of confusion at a player monster of your own role and that player monster has a scroll of genocide and suddenly decides to read it. 02:12 <@carlarc> i'm gonna try to test that out 02:12 [hdf-us] [fh] carl (carlarc) (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "cursed figurine of a samurai", on T:1 02:12 <@carlarc> damnit 02:13 [hdf-us] [fh] carl (carlarc) (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed fixed scroll of charging named SCIENCE", on T:5 02:14 [hdf-us] [fh] carl (carlarc) (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fixed +2 Grayswandir", on T:5 02:15 [hdf-us] [fh] carl (carlarc) (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed fixed +2 silver dragon scale mail", on T:9 02:15 [hdf-us] [fh] carl (carlarc) (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed +2 fixed speed boots", on T:22 02:15 <@carlarc> i hate this wish spam 02:15 [hdf-us] [fh] carl (carlarc) (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed scroll of genocide", on T:25 02:15 [hdf-us] [fh] carl (carlarc) (Sam Hum Fem Law) wished for "cursed potion of confusion", on T:36 02:20 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 02:23 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf 02:28 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:41007 02:28 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:41008 02:29 [hdf-us] [nh362] eraserhead97 (Wiz Gno Fem Neu), 2073 points, T:3271, killed by a giant spider 02:33 -!- eraserhead97 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:33 <@carlarc> hmm 02:44 -!- phinxy has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:44 -!- phinxy has joined #hardfought 02:54 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 02:54 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:57 -!- Gaelan has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 03:17 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 03:22 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:56 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:59 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 04:00 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 04:23 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:39 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:42 [hdf-us] [nh362] arnibald (Rog Hum Mal Cha) wished for "rustproof greased blessed +2 cloak of protection", on T:25803 05:03 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:06 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 05:11 @carlarc is that explore mode/wizmode ? 05:11 oh yeah it seems 05:13 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Pri Elf Mal Cha) was chosen to steal souls for the Glory of Manannan Mac Lir, on T:34220 05:32 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse 06:01 stennowork: Hi... since you know vscode... when I commit things on command-line, vscode still shows changes in the editor as if nothing was commited (those blue bars on the left side). 06:02 stennowork: Any ideas why? 06:19 Mandevil, tbh i don't really use vscode that much 06:19 at work we have licenses for a commercial IDE 06:19 and at home i don't really program much anymore 06:25 -!- spontiff has joined #hardfought 06:39 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 29851 points, T:7964, killed by an invisible vampire lord 06:49 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 170 points, T:840, killed by a small mimic 07:00 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 07:04 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:57 -!- ais523_ has joined #hardfought 07:57 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v ais523_] by ChanServ 07:59 -!- spontiff has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:01 -!- noty_ has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.2] 08:09 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:10 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 08:10 Beholder: messages 08:10 apparently not (sorry for missing the question mark) 08:11 -!- ais523 is now known as ais523_ 08:21 ais523_: I think I did have a message for you but forgot to !tell it. here it is: 08:21 The RNG made me a troll. How ironic. 08:22 regarding your "ok to generate one out of difficulty monster from time to time", polytraps actually could be a good vector for that, but only if they symmetrically went away once the monster had transformed, just like the player. 08:23 (Of course, this is if you do think it's okay to generate an out of difficulty monster from time to time, which I don't without a lot of extra controls layered on top) 08:24 you would probably need the controls 08:24 I should write an article about this, I've been meaning to for years 08:25 in particular, most roguelikes benefit from having a metered number of enemies which will require consumables to beat; too few and the consumables are pointless (thus greatly reducing tactical and strategic depth), too many compared to the frequency of consumables and the game becomes unfairly difficult or impossible 08:46 -!- Anerag has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.x-git-37-ad7e447b - https://znc.in] 08:51 -!- Anerag has joined #hardfought 08:54 there's something of a continuum though; at one extreme you have roguelikes like Pokémon Mystery Dungeon where pretty much every enemy requires consumables to defeat 08:54 and the game is mostly about trying to match the consumable to the monster as efficiently as possible (and/or running away, you do that a lot) 08:55 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: meeting] 09:01 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 09:05 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:06 <@Tone> I think the early game in nethack often expects the player to use consumables if they aren't a strong melee role 09:08 <@Tone> Especially in the early-mid game when you still have weaknesses but start running into stronger monsters, and have found some consumables to use 09:10 <@Tone> A tourist game I'm currently playing has required the use of many attack wands, healing pots, tele scrolls 09:19 @Tone especially the wizard and healer, who start with some identified ones 09:20 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 09:20 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya] by ChanServ 09:26 hi! 09:26 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 09:27 PDC migration complete 09:27 other than print services to windows 7 machines, all good 09:27 <@Tone> Yep, the tricky part is actually knowing what your consumables do early on 09:27 <@Tone> Wands and tele scrolls are easy enough to ID, but outside of that... 09:28 <@Tone> I wonder if delis sold healing pots like health food stores do if that would help on that front 09:29 eh delis are not that common 09:30 or too small to reasonably expect them to generate a specific item 09:30 subways should sell PB&J 09:30 but no 09:30 they sell PB&J if you set your fruitname to that 09:32 <@Tone> Yeah changing the base price would be more direct and effective 09:34 i really like playing with sparse resources 09:35 like it's a totally different game when you're clearly.. underprepared and have to do extreme resource management 09:35 <@Tone> Why should healing and extra healing have the same base price anyways 09:36 I like the idea of healing being 80 and xhealing being 120, but the problem is it just makes price id even more necessary 09:39 <@Tone> It will be hard to change that, I think 09:40 <@Tone> Unless there was some resource that narrowed down the pool of items that an item might be 09:42 <@Tone> GKH has a neat take on this - all potions are grouped into sets of 3 random potions, which you know when you see them 09:43 xnh has done some of the things for better informal id of a couple object classes (rings, spellbooks). Scrolls, amulets and potions still elude me though. 09:46 <@Tone> What if you could smell a potion without consuming it 09:46 oh wait, I did do something for potion id 09:46 but it involves dumping the potion down a sink 09:46 so you lose it 09:46 <@Tone> The messages would probably have to be a little different than what they are already, but it could help with the ID mini game 09:47 that is basically the "controlled smell" effect, it subjects you to vapor effects (and I increased vapor effects so that most potions can be identified or narrowed down a lot by breathing their vapors 09:48 <@Tone> Another possibility could be for diluted potions had a diminished effect, and have a method to dilute a potion to get a clue towards what it might be 09:50 <@Tone> Either by using a fountain or some other dungeon feature, or maybe pouring some on the ground a la wands. "You spill out some of the brilliant blue potion onto the floor. The bugs on the floor speed up!" 09:50 soon we're going to hear about notdnethack's gnome vaping kits 09:50 @Tone Problem is, you can do that indefinitely. 09:51 <@Tone> Could be similar to using sinks too but you fill the vial back up at the tap 09:51 <@Tone> Yeah I don't know if reducing the efficacy of the potion is enough of a cost for that ID info 09:52 Hmm, so you displace half of the potion and get its vapors, in exchange for the other half getting diluted which is _not_ repeatable? 09:52 YANI ^ 09:53 <@Tone> Yep. But I think diluted potions should be less effective in this system 09:54 Well, if diluted potions are less effective, that's a reason not to informally ID them at all, isn't it? 09:55 <@Tone> Possibly, depending on how you value the difference between a full and diluted potion vs the identity data it could give you 09:56 <@luxidream> if you have 5 potions, it's still incredibly useful to take one off the stack to ID all of them 09:56 Well, yeah, but that already is true in xnethack's system where the potion gets used up in order to get its vapors. 09:57 <@Tone> Can't you already get potion vapors in vanilla by throwing it at a wall? 09:58 yes you can 09:58 and in xnethack that is identical to dumping it down a sink, in terms of ID. Hmm. 10:00 I didn't know that. 10:02 <@Tone> It's not something I see players do often 10:02 the sink diluting thing could also square with luxidream's idea for deliberate dipping into water sources to dilute it to water in one go 10:02 by providing a way to dilute deliberately if you want 10:04 Ultimately, is the problem just that the expected utility of a single potion after it's formally discovered is higher than the utility of sacrificing it or degrading it now to learn what it is? 10:04 BTW, what happens to the bottle when you use up the potion? 10:05 Mandevil: see https://nhqdb.alt.org/?1987 10:06 Heh. 10:07 <@Tone> aosdict: I think so, yes. I think most potions either aren't useful enough that you'll need them identified now or they are useful enough that you don't want to waste them to ID them, except for healing pots probably which are often ID'd by monsters 10:07 I'm not sure Zelda should be trusted as a reliable source of strategic advice for NetHack. 10:07 <@Tone> I usually don't fuss around with potion ID mini games and just price ID then formally ID 10:07 I wonder how this worked in Dungeon Master. 10:08 @Tone With a couple of special exceptions, NetHack potions are mostly useful in stacks, rather than individually. 10:08 Since empty bottles certainly were a thing in it. 10:08 Because you either want to do alchemy on the stack, or else you want to convert the entire stack into holy water. 10:09 <@Tone> Neither of those are really hurt much by consuming one potion in the stack 10:09 Notable exceptions include already-blessed gain energy/ability and full healing potions, and cursed gain level. 10:09 Oh, and you need *one* blessed see invisible, per game. 10:10 <@Tone> heh, yeah 10:10 And one blessed invisibility, if you get it before the wand. 10:10 simultaneously, you only need one wand zap ever, despite monsters spawning with it all the time 10:11 this is why I want to make permanent invis/see invis extrinsic-only 10:11 <@Tone> I'm definitely a proponent of that 10:11 Permainvis is stupid. 10:11 ^ 10:11 so you wanna do what sporkhack did 10:11 It's fine if you are wearing a ring or cloak that's designed to do that. 10:12 K2: What did it do? 10:12 Permainvis is more trouble than it's worth until you're ready for the ascension run. 10:12 perm invis is not a thing in sporkhack nor is see invis 10:12 jonadab: Not really, it's pretty optimal to get the minute you have a noncursed mummy wrapping 10:12 you have to wear a ring/cloak to always have it 10:12 K2: That sounds good. 10:12 otherwise its a temporary effect (wand/potion/eating stalker corpse) 10:12 aosdict: Having to take off your MC3 cloak every time you go into a shop, and then forgetting to switch back, is quite annoying. 10:13 Though once you have telecontrol that is less of a problem. 10:13 I think that's more than made up for what with monsters not always being able to hit the space where you actually are. 10:13 K2: It's permanent if you eat the stalker corpse while already invisible, I believe? 10:13 Not in spork. 10:13 Evidently. 10:13 Ah. 10:14 jonadab: not in sporkhack 10:14 In my mind, permanent see invisible actually does a lot more to make the late game boring than permanent invisibility. 10:15 Once you get it, the entire mechanic of being hit by stuff you can't see and pinpoint goes poof. 10:15 And all those monsters zapping make invisible at themselves doesn't do anything. 10:16 <@luxidream> aosdict: invisible monsters aren’t significantly more interesting without NH4 AI 10:17 <@luxidream> they tend to attack you stay in place 10:17 <@luxidream> and stay* 10:17 <@luxidream> making them as easy to target as normal monsters 10:19 I've played Brogue. I don't think Phantoms are one of the more interesting monsters. One of the more deadly, yes. One of the more interesting, no. 10:19 <@luxidream> If an enemy in NH4 knows you cannot see it it will move around you while attacking 10:19 Yeah, but the factor of *something* unknown suddenly attacking you out of nowhere will continue to increase the variety of the late game, even if it moves predictably. 10:20 YANI: allow monsters to zap wands of make invisible at fellow hostile monsters, so you can end up attacked by things like invisible green slimes that wouldn't normally get to be invisible 10:20 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:21 aosdict: FIQHack has that. 10:23 <@luxidream> aosdict: from experience playing without see invis it’s just not terribly interesting 10:23 <@luxidream> It only really matters at castle 10:24 it may not be terribly interesting, but it's still more interesting than it is now. 10:24 Like, there's no argument being made that monsters the player actually can't see should only appear in the early game. 10:27 I mean, I'm not deeply opposed to making blessed see invisible only give you like 10x as many turns as uncursed. 10:27 But I don't think it will be a significant improvement to the game. 10:29 [hdf-us] [un] Delraven (Rog Orc Mal Cha), 3491 points, T:3836, killed by a mumak 10:29 -!- Gaelan has joined #hardfought 10:29 Maybe it won't be a significant improvement, but it will still be an improvement. 10:30 * jonadab shrugs 10:30 jeez I thought this was a popular idea 10:31 -!- jilles has quit [Quit: restarting client] 10:35 -!- jilles has joined #hardfought 10:39 heh, my opinion will likely not matter at all but making blessed see invisible next to useless is an actual *de*provement of the game in my eyes :P it just adds one more extra resource for the player to keep track of and thus makes the annoying item micromanagement even worse 10:40 if the duration is generous for a blessed potion, you'll "only" have to carry around maybe three extra potions or so, but that's still 15 weight units even with a blessed bag... and if the duration is too short, you'll not have enough carry capacity to carry around the huge amount of potions you'll need, so you end up just not seeing invisible monsters 10:44 In general terms, I do feel that idempotency is usually not good for game balance. Anything you want exactly once. 10:45 yeah but making it timed means you always need to watch out because it might run out, and unless you use MSGTYPE you might not even notice that it did 10:45 But there *are* exceptions. For example, I am *not* advocating for a system where each key is good to open one locked door and then is used up. That would NOT be an improvement to NetHack. 10:46 considering the amount of time it takes to carve your way through boringgehennom... if the potion lasts for 1000 turns, you'd need at least half a dozen for the entire Gehennom unless you also have a dozen magic mapping scrolls 10:46 LarienTelrunya: In practice, you'd keep several in your bag and use one when you need it, e.g., when facing a particularly dangerous invisible monster. 10:47 <@luxidream> Or you could just put on your blindfold 10:47 jonadab: that's just what I meant, it requires you to carry around even more items than before! and I'm already always exactly one scroll short of being burdened in nonslex lategame 10:47 @luxidream : Good point. 10:48 Come to that, it also buffs ESP and maybe warning. 10:48 Not sure if that is good or bad. 10:49 <{Demo}1> do potions weigh too much? 10:49 {Demo}1: if you ask me, yes, they definitely do 10:49 but if you ask me, everything weighs too much :P for me, the official nethack anthem is "Heavy" by Linkin Park 10:50 <{Demo}1> I don't want to hear weight from u Amy I know how u feel 10:50 <{Demo}1> I wouldn't be opposed to entertaining the idea of making potions weight 15 10:55 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 10:57 I think relative object weights in general need to be looked over carefully, but I keep putting it off because a thorough job would be a lot of work. And realism is far less important than balance here. 10:58 I think it's correct that spellbooks weigh a lot. Not certain about potions they might weigh slightly too much. I'm pretty sure armor weights need a hard look. 10:58 The real problem with potion weights may not be the weight, though. 10:59 The real problem with potion weights is that the game very strongly rewards potion hoarding. 10:59 jonadab: spellbooks also weigh way too much especially since you somehow don't get extra spell memory regardless of how often you cast the spell, so after 20k turns you need to tediously go back to where you stashed it... what's the point of that? 10:59 It just makes it more tedious by increasing the length of the game! 10:59 LarienTelrunya: Nobody goes 20k turns without revisiting their stash, anyway. 10:59 but you don't even get to do something interesting in the thousands of turns it takes to walk back to where you stashed the books! all you do it for is so you're "allowed" to cast the spell again! 11:00 how does that even make sense that my wizard, who casts force bolt hundreds of time over the course of 20k turns, suddenly no longer knows how to cast it? 11:01 -!- stenno_ has joined #hardfought 11:01 Spell memory is, in any case, a separate issue from book weight. 11:01 -!- stenno_ has quit [Changing host] 11:01 -!- stenno_ has joined #hardfought 11:01 Books weigh a lot in order to not encourage carrying them around much, which is correct IMO. 11:01 -!- stennowork has quit [Killed (barjavel.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 11:01 -!- stenno_ is now known as stennowork 11:01 nah they belong together, because if spellbook weight weren't so high you could carry around the important books to ensure you don't forget important spells at a critical time 11:01 Spell memory... there may be a better way to handle spell memory, I'll concede that sure. 11:02 Not sure I know exactly what the right way to handle spell memory *is*, but I'm not stuck on the current system. 11:02 in SLASH'EM (yes even the regular one) your spell memory increases a little whenever you cast a spell, that's exactly how it's supposed to be IMHO :D 11:02 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 11:06 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:08 jonadab, one simple option would be to remove spell memory entirely (once learnt, a spell can always be cast) 11:08 jilles: And make books disintegrate when read? 11:09 jilles: or the old system with "spell stock" could be brought back! every time you read a book, you get a certain amount of spell stock, reading it again adds some spell stock, but books have a finite amount of charges, and if you cast the spell enough you'll run out and can't cast it anymore 11:09 jonadab, pretty much (assuming mind flayers and ?amnesia can't make you forget spells either) 11:10 polypiling books would have to be nerfed somehow 11:10 Oh, amnesia, right, I forgot vanilla still has that. 11:10 (Fourk got rid of it a long time ago.) 11:10 LarienTelrunya, spell stock seems to make spellcasting much like zapping wands 11:11 I think having books disintegrate when read makes polypiling books somewhat more reasonable. 11:11 You'd only polypile identified ones, presumably. 11:11 LarienTelrunya: I don't like the SLASHEM spell memory system because it encourages micromanaging of your spell retention and periodic casting of the spell for no reason at all 11:11 And a percentage of them would be lost in polypiling, like anything. 11:11 aosdict: well the vanilla system encourages micromanaging of your stash location and going back to your stash for no reason at all! :P 11:12 generally, in vanilla, once I have a blessed bag of holding I don't use any stashes at all anymore and just leave crap on the ground 11:12 but then again I don't play wizards often 11:12 Some things are dangerous to leave on the ground. Monsters will use them against you. 11:12 Though this is more true in FH than in vanilla. 11:13 eh, nothing wrong with monsters zapping wands of magic missile at me, I reflect them anyway :D 11:13 -!- Gaelan has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:13 and really dangerous stuff that I don't want to use? uhh not sure if that exists, but if it does, in the case of doubt there's always some chest to put it into 11:13 Sure, I leave magic missle wands on the ground. 11:13 <@Tone> jilles: Do you think polypiling spellbooks is still overpowered in 361? 11:14 Also striking once I have the 2-3 wands of striking I want. 11:14 striking I usually only need one in vanilla but like 5 in unnethack because of the special levels ;) 11:14 I'd only need one if it were full. 11:14 But usually by the time I get them, they've been zapped at me several times already. 11:21 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) killed the invisible Orcus, on T:42438 11:22 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) killed Yeenoghu, on T:42445 11:28 @Tone not very much experience with polypiling in 3.6.x, but it now seems reasonable compared to polypiling in general 11:35 -!- Gaelan has joined #hardfought 11:43 <@Tone> jilles: Polymorphing a spellbook increments the read counter now, so you can basically get 2 spells from one before you have to reset the read counter and start over, iirc 11:50 -!- Gaelan has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:51 -!- Gaelan has joined #hardfought 12:00 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu) averted death, on T:4006 12:03 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 4849 points, T:4124, killed by a dwarf 12:05 -!- Gaelan has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:14 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 12:16 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 827 points, T:1613, killed by a dwarf, while fainted from lack of food 12:35 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:40 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:44551 12:51 [hdf-us] [nh362] Tmasher (Ran Elf Mal Cha) averted death, on T:60108 12:54 @Tone and if you polypile an already read-identified spellbook, you get one shot at a useful spell, then you need to blank it and start over. 12:55 However, blank books can still be polypiled into non-blank, so I'm not sure it really makes a big difference. 13:22 <@Tone> jonadab: Do you know what resets the read counter? I've blanked spellbooks and poly'd them only for them to be too faint to read 13:22 [hdf-us] [nh362] Tmasher (Ran Elf Mal Cha) killed Yeenoghu, on T:60318 13:26 let's find out! *dives into source again* 13:27 tone: if you formally id them you can write the spellbook 13:27 when a book is created, spestudied is 0 13:28 when you read a book that is now too faint, it turns into blank paper and its study count is NOT set to 0, it's set to 0-[current study count minus 1] 13:30 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:31 when a book is polymorphed, it increments study count by 1 and then immediately checks to see if it's too blank. if it is, it does the random 0 to current study count thing. 13:33 writing doesn't change the book otyp, it actually destroys the blank book and creates a new one, so it gets a study count of 0 13:34 so it's plausible that you read a book too many times, it turns study count to 0, you re polymorph it and it goes to 1 13:36 [hdf-us] [un] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) genocided vorpal jabberwocks dungeon wide on T:56852 13:38 <{Demo}1> someone add obesity to nethack 13:39 hmm, anyone know which defines have the biggest impact on the nethack binary filesize? 13:39 Well eating too much abuses dex 13:39 to make it smaller that is 13:41 <@Tone> hothraxxa: but that uses marker charges, it's better to avoid that if possible 13:45 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:46 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:47 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Pri Elf Mal Cha) killed Medusa, on T:36203 13:48 <@Tone> aosdict: Interesting, that explains why what I've observed has felt random 😄 13:49 <@Tone> I had assumed that spestudied was reset to 0 at some point, but I see that is only guaranteed if you write a new one 13:50 <@Tone> Makes me wonder if it might actually be optimal to write a low ink spellbook when polypiling in some situations 13:52 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:55 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 13:57 pellsson: Oh please don't go trying to build nethack on some old system that was used 25 years ago, it will totally captivate the attention of the devteam to the point where they stop working on actual features 13:58 in other news, patr appears to be reverting to the old behavior of not emailing me back about my bug reports 13:58 [hdf-us] [un] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) killed Orcus, on T:57515 13:59 <{Demo}1> well he cant get in trouble with the community for saying nothing 13:59 <{Demo}1> thats what happens when u bite their heads off when they go another direction 13:59 <{Demo}1> they hide back in their shell 14:02 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:06 <@luxidream> Demo: there is obesity in fourk 14:06 <@luxidream> if you are too satiated you move slower 14:06 <{Demo}1> thats not obesity 14:06 <{Demo}1> i mean like as a long term instadeath 14:07 <{Demo}1> like uh.... the wisdom thing in dnethack and slex 14:07 <{Demo}1> contamination 14:08 <@luxidream> considering you're in the dungeon for a couple of days at most 14:08 <@luxidream> I don't think you're in there long enough for obesity to kill you 14:08 <{Demo}1> if its a day at most why do i have to eat so many meals? 14:08 [hdf-us] [nh362] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law), 11184 points, T:4533, killed by the wrath of Tyr 14:12 [hdf-us] [nh362] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law), 270 points, T:1520, killed by a wand 14:12 <@kritixilithos> you need lots of energy 14:13 <@kritixilithos> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHack_units "Because the hero burns through food rations faster than normal humans, each ration can sustain the hero for a much shorter time." 14:16 yes, and let me know when you can scarf down a day's worth of food in the amount of time it takes for a goblin to hit you five times, or eat a packaged military meal in the time it takes for it to hit you once. 14:16 @Tone I think writing them with a marker resets the counter. 14:18 <@luxidream> K2: can you eat a K-ration in one round? 14:19 I guess the adventurer just handing food down their throat might explain why they choke so easily 14:19 <@luxidream> we need to know 14:19 <{Demo}1> ive never choked to death on food 14:19 <{Demo}1> and ive eaten a lot of food 14:22 [hdf-us] [un] Delraven (Arc Hum Mal Law), 236 points, T:607, killed by a shuriken 14:22 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 373 points, T:706, killed by a dwarf 14:22 <@luxidream> well, we assume you also aren't eating entire dragons in a minute and a half 14:23 <@luxidream> entire raw dragons, I might add 14:23 <@luxidream> with your bare hands 14:24 I don't know, I've been to college. One of the things you learn is how to scarf. Cafeteria "opens" at 11:15, takes ten minutes to get you through the line, and you have an 11:30 class? No problemo. 14:24 maybe dragons in the dungeon are less dense or something 14:24 like, the wizard just throws them together with spells and dark matter 14:25 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu) performed his first genocide (cockatrice), on T:84 14:25 Hmm, YASI: when a black dragon dies, it should release an area-of-effect disintegration blast, instead of dropping a corpse. 14:26 Actually, that might qualify as an EPI. 14:26 aosdict: lol :') 14:26 I guess a plain YASI would be if it just self-disintegrated instead of leaving a corpse. 14:26 i think its safe 14:26 <@luxidream> Ignores reflection, gg player 14:35 b - 2 topaz stones. c - 2 opals. i - a wand of polymorph (0:4). 14:35 \o/ 14:36 I've heard "old system"? 14:36 so outdated, I could have kids of its own? 14:36 which would require lots of workarounds and ugly hacks to the existing code? 14:38 [hdf-us] [spl] Noah (Rog Inf Fem Cha), 508 points, T:1358, killed by a volatile mushroom's explosion 14:39 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 1540 points, T:1511, killed by a rothe 14:39 [hdf-us] [spl] Noah (Rog Inf Fem Cha), 10 points, T:37, mowed down by a sewer rat 14:49 [hdf-us] [nh362] Karnac (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 677 points, T:1095, killed by a giant ant 14:50 -!- SlappyMcSlappers has joined #hardfought 14:50 -!- SlappyMcSlappers has quit [Client Quit] 15:16 rip 15:16 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) made his first wish - "blessed eye of the aethiopica", on T:1526 15:17 -!- j has joined #hardfought 15:17 -!- j is now known as rebatelaj 15:17 -!- rebatelaj is now known as rebatela 15:23 [hdf-us] [nh362] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 1868 points, T:2362, killed by a werewolf 15:23 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 15:23 -!- rebatela has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:37 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 15:37 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya] by ChanServ 15:43 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 1189 points, T:396, quit 15:44 bhaak: what are you talking about 15:44 FIQ: Messages from @carlarc have been forwarded to you privately. 15:44 <@Tone> Damn 15:44 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 28 points, T:48, killed by a sewer rat 15:45 @carlarc what? 15:45 what has been forwarded to me? 15:50 bhaak: stuffing it directly into the bios of an old 486, doubt the mainbranch will care much to support that ;) 15:50 FIQ: I made a comment about how someone trying to develop on an old system will so captivate the devteam's attentions that they pause working on vanilla 15:51 oh I see the comment referred to now 15:51 haha 15:51 Didn't carlarc also have a fh crash, or has that been resolved? 15:52 if you mean the potion bug 15:52 then yes, it was resolved 15:57 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 15:57 <@carlarc> no, not that 15:58 <@carlarc> @FIQ 15:58 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/535925970482233344/unknown-217.png 16:01 * LarienTelrunya still doesn't understand why an impossible was made to look like a panic. the error in that screenshot is an impossible, right? and "repair the game state" will let the game continue? 16:01 <@carlarc> repair game state puts me 1 turn before the crash 16:01 <@carlarc> so it just puts me inside a loop 16:01 @carlarc thanks 16:02 do you have a save with the error? 16:02 <@carlarc> yeah 16:02 K2: can you give me it 16:05 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:08 pellsson: never say never. the amount of VMS and DOS talk on the mailinglist is frightening 16:09 I don't think there are many #defines left in 3.6 that would bring down the code size significantly. 16:10 but maybe making all struct (packed) and using -Os might make a difference? 16:13 but nethack has never cared about size. that's the unix legacy. old 16 bit machines already had problems running it in the 80s 16:18 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:21 [hdf-us] [un] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) killed Vlad the Impaler, on T:59763 16:27 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 11532 points, T:4710, killed by a dwarf king 16:29 [hdf-us] [slshm] luxor (Val Dop Fem Neu), 148 points, T:195, killed by a giant rat 16:36 FIQ see private msg 16:39 [hdf-us] [sp] k2 (Wiz Dwa Mal Neu) wished for "blessed spellbook of identify", on T:41221 16:40 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 16:43 [hdf-us] [sp] k2 (Wiz Dwa Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased +5 helm of brilliance", on T:41268 16:44 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:46 [hdf-us] [nh343] UltimateThule (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Medusa, on T:74045 16:46 -!- eraserhead97 has joined #hardfought 17:00 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Pri Elf Mal Cha) polymorphed his first object, on T:38554 17:01 [hdf-us] [nh362] Xaleth (Val Hum Fem Law), 2566 points, T:2727, killed by a watch captain 17:04 [hdf-us] [nh362] Grouchy (Bar Hum Fem Neu) polymorphed her first object, on T:44779 17:18 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 17:22 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:22 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23 doh - sacrificed an orc as an orc at Orcish town and got Yeenoghu 8^P 17:24 now, both Juiblex and Yeenoghu are here 8^P 17:25 <@carlarc> i hate that 17:25 <@carlarc> they just teleport next to you all the time 17:25 <@carlarc> very Annoying 17:27 yeah - makes my play super-slow 'cause I'm afraid of aggro'ing them 17:29 eraserhead97, dump them in the levels below 17:29 jilles: how do I do that? Just be adjacent to me when going down and NOT when coming up? 17:33 yuppers - seems to work - thx 17:51 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 17:54 <@carlarc> oh my god 17:54 <@carlarc> i accidentally gave the priest in minetown all my money while trying to racket 17:54 <@carlarc> fuck 17:55 [hdf-us] [nh362] eraserhead97 (Bar Orc Fem Cha) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:4302 17:56 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:56 yeah that probably should be fixed. If you accidentally type an extra digit and specify more than you have, it just hands the whole lot over. Should really just fail and say "You don't have that much!" or something. 17:59 if I attack and get a smite message, do I get some bonuses (to hit or dmg)? 17:59 + 18:00 <@carlarc> i heard that it's just for flavor 18:01 <@carlarc> https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/40p7kg/whats_the_difference_between_hitting_normally_and/ yeah 18:03 carlarc: ic - thx ^^ 18:08 [hdf-us] [nh362] eraserhead97 (Bar Orc Fem Cha) had Cleaver bestowed upon her by Set, on T:4829 18:09 Cleaver's AoE always makes me a little nervous. Suppose I hit a mob that's standing next to Yeenoghu - if the AoE hits Y, I'll aggro him, right? 18:10