00:00 Famine had "oLS :/ 00:02 grand tour \o/ 00:05 congrats Tangles! Any further or overall feedback? 00:05 thanks aosdict :) 00:06 \o/ 00:06 Umm nothing much other than the things I already mentioned. 00:06 congrats Tangles! 00:06 I like the lit astral. 00:06 bask in the gods' radiance 00:06 Thanks K2 :) 00:08 I like the intro messages for all the uniques. Though I don't think I got one for Death or Pestillence. Definitely did for famine though. 00:08 ugh 00:09 then there's still something wrong 00:10 I mean.. maybe I did, I'm not the world's most observant player. 00:11 I got the famine one when he was still in the next room (but I could see him with astral vision) 00:11 well astral vision is just the sort of thing that could throw a wrench in things 00:12 you probably shouldn't get the entry message through walls 00:13 wait, where are your ttyrecs of this game 00:14 I only see dumplogs and ttyrecs from March 13 00:15 [hdf-us] [nh362] every (Rog Orc Fem Cha) killed the Master Assassin, on T:38804 00:15 [hdf-us] [nh362] every (Rog Orc Fem Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:38806 00:25 [hdf-us] [slshm] Disruptor (Ice Vam Mal Cha), 22852 points, T:9418, petrified by a chickatrice 00:44 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:24 [hdf-us] [nh362] gunnervi (Val Dwa Fem Law) eschewed atheism, by dropping a circular amulet on an altar, on T:3055 01:36 [hdf-us] [nh362] gunnervi (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:3836 01:37 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 01:46 [hdf-us] [nh362] gunnervi (Val Dwa Fem Law) became literate by reading the fortune inside a cookie, on T:4657 01:55 [hdf-us] [nh362] gunnervi (Val Dwa Fem Law), 5723 points, T:5196, killed by a watchman, while sleeping 02:03 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 02:23 -!- elenmirie_ has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 02:23 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 03:02 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 03:02 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v LarienTelrunya] by ChanServ 03:21 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:34 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 04:04 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:05 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 07:06 [hdf-us] [nh362] arnibald (Rog Hum Mal Cha) polymorphed his first object, on T:15818 07:07 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 07:11 [hdf-us] [nh362] arnibald (Rog Hum Mal Cha) performed his first genocide (class L), on T:15876 07:27 aosdict: sorry had to disappear. ttyrecs should be on the au server. 07:33 -!- kritixilithos has joined #hardfought 07:34 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.2] 08:55 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:15 -!- rld has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15 -!- rld has joined #hardfought 09:15 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v rld] by ChanServ 09:24 [hdf-us] [sp] hothraxxa (Hea Dwa Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed historic partly eaten magic marker named aislin", on T:31661 09:46 -!- kritixilithos has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:53 defeated by a small mimic. 'defeated' sounds so much worse. 09:53 Well, it's the #3 death for a reason 09:54 another game, another general store... a silver long sword named Demonbane (30000 zorkmids) 09:54 Another small mimic? 09:54 Well yes, besides that. 09:54 Revenge? 09:54 hah no 09:55 If you're careful and patient, small mimics can be killed 09:55 I think picking that up is death for an infernal. 09:58 Andrio: please don't explain to me how to deal with mimics. I was commenting on the splicehack death message, that's all. 09:58 sorry. 09:58 no worries :) 10:00 It's late here. I should just go to bed. Are you in the same timezone as me, Andrio? (I think you pasted something with a timestamp once and it had my local time on it) 10:01 UTC+11? 10:01 yeah 10:01 It is pretty late, yeah. 10:01 Where abouts are you? 10:02 Melbourne 10:02 oh cool :) I was down at Phillip Island a couple of months ago for the motoGP 10:03 Didn't quite make it as far as melbourne though. 10:03 Ah, nice 10:03 I'm based in Canberra 10:09 -!- kritixilithos has joined #hardfought 10:10 -!- kritixilithos has quit [Changing host] 10:10 -!- kritixilithos has joined #hardfought 10:12 anyway I'm off. good night. 10:13 Sleep well.. 10:32 -!- greqrg has joined #hardfought 11:04 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 11:06 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:56911 11:19 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:57207 11:20 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:57217 11:21 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) performed the invocation, on T:57244 11:27 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 11:27 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v ais523] by ChanServ 11:28 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the high priest of Moloch, on T:57457 11:28 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:57458 11:31 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 11:32 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v ais523] by ChanServ 11:51 -!- Luxidream has joined #hardfought 11:55 K2: does hdf apply RNG patch? NAO just had an RNG manipulation ascension that won in 7 min and 2087 turns 11:55 no 11:56 whats the patch? 11:59 https://bilious.alt.org/?349 12:00 <@carlarc> where's that ascension? 12:00 <@carlarc> oh nvm 12:00 thats an old patch 12:00 I'm not sure how easily that would apply to 3.6.x 12:00 why has devteam not implemented it or something like it? 12:00 K2: there's a bandaid in 3.6.x but it doesn't work well enough 12:01 !lastgame 12:01 LarienTelrunya: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/g/gunnervi/nh361/dumplog/1546731055.nh361.txt | [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/A/AmyBSOD/slex/dumplog/1546165071.slex.txt | [hdf-au] https://au.hardfought.org/userdata/T/Tangles/splicehack/dumplog/1546784577.splice.txt 12:04 not sure if i should get excited about this or not 12:05 how easy is it for someone to exploit? 12:06 it takes effort, but it's just been done on NAO 12:06 so someone's apparently willing to put in the effort 12:06 & it would be extremely effective for bones griefing, so it's not mostly harmless 12:08 <@Tone> It could be used more subtly to give a player free wishes through a game or streak without drawing much attention 12:08 good point 12:09 does this patch translate well to 3.6.x? or would it need some work 12:10 the content of the patch should translate just fine, fitting it into the build system may be harder 12:11 <@carlarc> wow his ttyrec is unintelligible 12:11 <@Tone> Well the full game is played in 90 seconds 12:12 so, faster than humanly possible. so botting was involved, at least? 12:12 -!- phinxy has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:12 <@Tone> 100% 12:12 not neccessarily botting 12:12 how much can you paste into a terminal 12:12 <@Tone> They milk a fountain for ~90 wishes in a few seconds 12:13 Can someone link the ttyrec, please? 12:13 nht has pasted entire ascensions into unnethack/acehack 12:13 <@Tone> Pinkbeast: https://alt.org/nethack/userdata/S/SWAGGINZZZ/ttyrec/2019-01-05.23:56:16.ttyrec 12:13 Thanks. 12:14 <@Tone> Yes it could have been pasted, not necessarily a bot 12:14 i'd guess pasting - the low turncount and the ttyrec implies it 12:18 yeah this needs to be addressed sooner rather than later 12:18 definitely before tournament season (June) 12:19 you shouldn't do your own crypto 12:20 just read from /dev/urandom or use something similar to unnethack 12:20 i fi remember correctly, the chroot we setup on hdf uses /dev/urandom 12:21 Oh, did 3.6 never fix the old RNG issue? 12:21 Huh. 12:21 bhaak: the patch isn't roll-your-own crypto, it's using standard crypto algorithms 12:21 jonadab: it has a fix but it's too small, just a slightly improved seeding 12:21 yup urandom 12:22 ais523: it implements them. you don't know if Adeon made a mistake. 12:22 well, we know he made mistakes. "Update: fixed two minor mistakes that throw away the old state of the PRNG" 12:23 bhaak: that sort of mistake could be made anywhere, though, not necessarily in the crypto 12:25 I would note that Bilious patch 349 was created by and is considered secure by a person who demonstrably had an adequate understanding of crypto to shoot palpable holes in the vanilla RNG. 12:25 So although I don't know that it's perfect, I am confident that it's an improvement. 12:26 However, I can't really argue against "just use urandom". 12:26 that would be useful for hdf 12:26 ais523: sure. but the less code the less potential errors 12:26 but of course you cannot use it in platform-independent code 12:27 jonadab: yeah. you would have to work hard to come up with something better than urandom 12:27 stenno: Ok, so #ifdef LINUX use_urandom() #else use_insecure_vanilla_rng(); #endif 12:27 Apart from Linux, the only other OS anybody's going to run a public server on is BSD. 12:28 there's only one Finn I trust more than Adeon 12:28 that would be paxed? 12:29 paxed's not a Finn. 12:29 waaaait? 12:29 no, not paxed 12:30 kimi raikonnen? 12:30 I was assuming he was referring to Torvalds, though I have no reason to believe he personally wrote the urandom code. 12:31 ... how is paxed not a Finn? 12:31 Pinkbeast: Isn't he Swedish? 12:31 i thought paxed was pasi kallinen 12:31 which sounds suspicously finnish 12:31 He has a Finnish name, lives in Finland, speaks Finnish... 12:31 he could be a Swede 12:31 Ok, I could be wrong. 12:32 focus people 12:32 haha 12:32 Wikipedia says urandom was by Theodore Ts'o originally. 12:32 you never know, though. people have been migrating for thousands of years 12:32 K2: so as urandom is already used, hdf should be safe from this kind of prediction? 12:32 I am guessing that he is not a Finn. 12:32 no one cares what nationality he is, so long as he isnt german 12:32 Perhaps confusion with Torvalds being a Swedish-speaking Finn? 12:32 K2: hey wat 12:32 ;) 12:32 :P 12:32 K2: was that a stab against Poettering? 12:32 one of the greatest players were german 12:33 marvin, stth, stenno.. 12:33 * stenno coughs 12:33 somebody who speaks German can't be a bad person 12:33 stenno: urandom - I hope so 12:33 No way are we ever letting Poettering write our crypto. 12:33 that simposons reference 12:33 bhaak: What if they speak terrible German, like me? 12:33 i wouldnt mind someone trying to use RNG exploit against hdf so we can tell for sure 12:34 Pinkbeast: at least you are trying, that makes you an aspiring person 12:34 I speak, like, twenty words of German. 12:34 jonadab: to be blunt, your orthography has been questionable :P 12:34 stenno: Heh, unsurprising. 12:35 i have trouble with english 12:35 * K2 first language is english 12:35 K2: not surprising as an American 12:35 'murica 12:35 I bet your american is much better than your english 12:35 HYUCK YEAH 12:35 I'm American, as well, and my English is generally passable. 12:35 heh 12:35 * stenno can now distinguish cantonese from mandarin by listening 12:35 'american' would be any number of native american dialects 12:36 stenno: Nice. 12:36 stenno: I can distinguish Japanese from Mandarin by listening, does that count? 12:36 fair enough 12:36 even though they share some words like the numbers i think? 12:36 Oh, there's a lot of loan words. 12:37 the letters are the same, thats for sure 12:37 kanji is traditional chinese after all 12:37 Japanese has Chinese loan words in much the same way that English has French loan words. 12:37 more or less 12:37 It's a good chunk of the vocabulary. 12:37 But the languages are otherwise not especially similar. 12:37 Not nearly as similar as Cantonese and Mandarin. 12:37 yeah 12:37 any of you know how to execute RNG exploit used against NAO recently? 12:38 FOCUS :P 12:38 K2: we still guess a bit how exactly it was done 12:38 it's the "classic" exploit but also guessing the PID somehow 12:38 fun fact: in lots of translated German books in the beginning there's a note "translated from the American". 12:38 and aosdict suspected hitherto unknown seed leaking 12:38 right, we're not 100% sure how it was done; I can think of a few ways to do that sort of thing but none of them were obviously used 12:39 kerio might know 12:39 might he? 12:39 when i saw the character name i had to think of kerio first, tbh 12:39 heh 12:41 ugh 12:42 either this head cold is really screwing up my sense of taste, or that leftover chinese food was just awful 12:44 maybe the 6 minutes of idle time were used to calculate the rng manipulation needed after figuring out the seed 12:50 K2: Could be a combination of both. 12:51 stenno: That seems very plausible. 12:58 stenno: the problem with this argument is, how did they get the game into a known state to use prerecorded inputs? or was the entire run calculated in those 6 minutes? 12:59 the second is what i assume (without any actual knowledge on how long those kind of calculations would take) 13:00 hrm 13:05 would that make more sense: they figured out a preferred seed and the game, and then waited for a good opportunity to obtain that seed? 13:06 Even with 2^32 possible seeds you'd have to wait a while for your preferred one to come around, let along 2^64. 13:07 would knowing the PID drastically reduce entropy? 13:08 hrm hrm 13:08 -!- kritixilithos has quit [Quit: :q] 13:08 it doesn't really add up nicely yet 13:10 so if you know the PID, you can do the 'classic' prediction, right? 13:11 ais523 | so start a bunch of games on other accounts and reverse-engineer the PID from the layout of dlvl 1 13:12 meh i am getting too much into territory where i am just too dumb for it 13:12 you could do that for forcing a particular seed 13:12 although you'd have to be starting way more games than anyone else to /force/ the seed 13:12 it crosses my mind that it would be easier if the start time, in hexadecimal, ended with lots of zeroes 13:12 what was the start time of that run? 13:13 Game began 2019-01-05 23:56:16, ended 2019-01-06 00:03:33. 13:14 build was d4ebae12f1a709d1833cf466dd0c553fb97518d2 13:14 https://s3.amazonaws.com/altorg/dumplog/SWAGGINZZZ/1546732576.nh361.txt 13:16 $ timestamp=`date +%s -d '2019-01-05 23:56:16'`; printf "%d %x\n" $timestamp $timestamp 13:16 1546732576 5c314420 13:16 five zeroes in binary, probably not enough 13:17 -!- Luxidream has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:21 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:37 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:49 -!- bobbydurrett has joined #hardfought 13:52 stenno: do you have a link to the ttyrec handy? I've forgotten how to ask Rodney for it 13:52 https://alt.org/nethack/userdata/S/SWAGGINZZZ/ttyrec/2019-01-05.23:56:16.ttyrec 13:52 thanks 13:52 §https://alt.org/nethack/userdata/S/SWAGGINZZZ/ttyrec/2019-01-05.23:56:16.ttyrec 13:53 thanks 13:53 [hdf-us] [nh13d] Grandolar (Elf Mal), 126 points, T:39, homunculus 13:54 oh, seems I did ask correctly, Rodney was just being slow 13:56 [hdf-us] [nh13d] Grandolar (Elf Mal), 58 points, T:70, hobgoblin 13:59 [hdf-us] [nh13d] Grandolar (Elf Mal), 50 points, T:152, imp 14:07 seems that i still have some jetlag to catch up to 14:25 -!- bobbydurrett has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:26 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 14:27 -!- tacco\unfoog has joined #hardfought 14:28 [hdf-us] [nh13d] Grandolar (Elf Mal), 1201 points, T:2334, giant ant 14:28 -!- Luxidream has joined #hardfought 14:31 [hdf-us] [nh13d] Grandolar (Elf Mal), 101 points, T:217, imp 14:37 [hdf-us] [nh13d] Grandolar (Elf Mal), 290 points, T:489, poisonous corpse 14:38 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:45 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) entered the Planes, on T:58017 14:54 -!- AlbertB has joined #hardfought 15:02 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Death, on T:58322 15:08 [hdf-us] [nh362] oh6 (Mon Hum Fem Law), 1773534 points, T:58389, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/o/oh6/nh361/dumplog/1546470517.nh361.txt 15:08 <@Tone> grats oh6 15:09 thanks @Tone! 15:09 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 15:18 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:24 -!- Luxidream has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:29 Is it o.k. to eat a tin of white unicorn as a chaotic elven wizard? 15:29 eating unicorns is fine 15:30 it's not harry potter, you don't get cursed 15:30 thanks. 15:35 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Suddenly, Raisse disappears out of sight.] 15:35 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 15:55 You see here a spellbook of detect foot. 15:55 another one 15:56 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 15:59 detect *foot*, I wonder what that would do 15:59 exactly what it sounds like I think 16:00 AlbertB: is it more fun to read the dark one as an edgy teen rather than a powerful adult? 16:01 <@carlarc> absolutely terrifying 16:01 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/531578139990687744/unknown.png 16:04 <[Demo]6> pretty sure the dark ones xp lvl is his age 16:04 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 16:04 what *is* the dark one's xp level? 16:04 I don't think I've ever checked with a stethoscope 16:06 I had no stethoscope either. 16:08 did someone fix the spiders? 16:08 I haven't been stuck in a web for ages and I've seen lots of spiders around 16:09 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:11 <[Demo]6> all i know is everyone says it is low 16:14 <@Tone> raisse: Yes, I believe that change was reverted. 16:15 <@Tone> https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/commit/6ff9753029ab187ca238169d68beb9313efea031 16:15 @carlarc I think you fell into The Hobbit 16:15 PavelB: lorimer has a strange sense of humor 16:16 Am I about to find out that detect foot wasn't a typo 16:16 Pretty sure it is not a typo. 16:16 it's certainly is no typo 16:16 * aosdict clones sporkhack, opens objects.c 16:17 <@Tone> "There are two right under you!" 16:17 i just found my third spellbook of detect foot 16:17 So what *does* it do? 16:17 * aosdict switches to spellc. 16:17 spell.c 16:17 it detects feet 16:17 it is level 7, and has 100% fail even when i wield a staff of divination 16:17 "Your nose tingles and you smell feet!" 16:17 so i don't know what it does 16:18 ^5 aosdict 16:18 "You see here a foot on the end of your leg." 16:18 IIRC lorimer was of the opinion there aren't enough high level spellbooks around 16:18 Is it special cased for polyselfs without feet? 16:18 I somehow doubt that this fixes the problem correctly 16:18 PavelB: yes 16:18 [hdf-us] [nh362] eraserhead97 (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 248 points, T:452, killed by a dart 16:18 you see here a spellbook of polyfodder 16:19 PavelB: it has literally no effect at all 16:19 you've cast it? 16:19 no, I'm reading the code 16:19 that was my next guess 16:19 because i don't think anyone can cast it 16:20 you could extend it to be a detect monsters for monsters with feet 16:21 It should at *least* tell you if your feet are injured 16:21 I would say "patches welcome" but the development of sporkhack is frozen 16:21 frozen? why? 16:22 It's winter 16:22 -!- AlbertB has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:22 I thought it was just in probably-never-going-to-get-another-update mode 16:22 lorimer got his programming brain eaten after switching to C# on his job 16:23 Could be worse. His employer could've switched over to everything-is-Node.js mode. 16:24 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 16:28 C# is good 16:29 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:44 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 16:46 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:49 [hdf-us] [nh362] eraserhead97 (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 633 points, T:1674, killed by a werejackal 16:50 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:54 'detect lost car keys' would be a better spell 16:55 on a serious note - any further updates to sporkhack would just be bug fixes really 16:55 <[Demo]6> instead of spork, evilhack 16:57 sort of 17:14 right now i'm working on importing all of the features from spork/grunt that I like, modifying them as i feel they need to be 17:15 and a few bits from others variants as well 17:15 then i'll start in on custom content 17:18 technically there already is some new custom things i've added, but i mean actual new levels/branches 17:22 <[Demo]6> you could steal some ndnh adventure branches for ideas 17:22 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:23 oh i already know what my first custom branch will be 17:23 just need to fill in the details 17:23 my daughter will be the boss you have to defeat at the end 17:23 she wanted to be a monster in nethack 17:23 so *poof* new branch 17:33 what are her powers? 17:33 kill by cute? 17:37 think Elsa from the movie 'Frozen' ;) 17:37 yay, cute *and* evil 17:38 (well, Elsa in the movie was only situationally evil, not intrinsically) 17:38 right 17:38 cone of cold at high level 17:38 leaning towards following the same track 17:48 -!- Luxidream has joined #hardfought 18:05 <@carlarc> i need help on the slash'em Yeoman quest if anyone knows it, the wiki says there's a secret door just west of the watchman but i've thoroughly checked and there's just a normal wall there, any help? 18:05 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/531609346656960573/unknown.png 18:10 <@Tone> Will a blessed scroll of magic mapping help? 18:13 <@carlarc> probably, but i haven't really IDed it yey 18:13 <@carlarc> yet* 18:13 <@carlarc> my current plan is to cast clairvoyance once i reread the book 18:18 wand of secret door detection, detect unseen 18:18 or cast knock at any spot where the door can be 18:18 or force bolt 18:18 if you're not in danger of hitting anything peaceful with it, yes 18:19 * raisse will go upstairs and cast sleep at self 18:23 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:25 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 18:26 <@carlarc> yeah but i only have magic missile 18:26 <@carlarc> and it takes ages to regen pw 18:30 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:40 [hdf-us] [slshm] Disruptor (Ice Vam Mal Cha), 3123 points, T:2093, poisoned by a killer bee 18:52 <@luxidream> https://pellsson.github.io/ 18:52 <@luxidream> ais523, K2 18:53 @luxidream: I saw it, was busy posting it in the devteam channel 18:53 <[Demo]6> what 18:53 [hdf-us] [nh362] eraserhead97 (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 346 points, T:1000, killed by a gnome 18:53 reading it now 18:53 <[Demo]6> lmfao 18:53 <[Demo]6> this is great 18:53 who is this? 18:53 looks like "brute force with checkpoints" 18:53 someone I've seen on irc before under pellsson 18:55 <[Demo]6> this is great 18:56 <[Demo]6> "raise suspicion" is this not allowed? 18:56 welp, that's my speedrunning career 18:57 it was fun while it lasted 18:57 Luxidream: the devteam want to prevent this working by Junethack 18:57 at least, some of us do 18:58 it didn't work on NAO 3.4.3, but the fix was post-3.4.3-release and never made it into 3.6.0 due to being platform-specific 18:58 that would be great 18:58 this technically isn't TAS, so it "legitimately" beats Adeon 18:58 and speedycat 18:58 TNNT rules say "don't abuse the RNG" so that would be off limits there 18:58 i'm still drooling over that htop screenshot 18:59 aosdict we dont allow bots either 18:59 so rng manipulation or not, it would be a no-go 18:59 Luxidream: how is it technically not TAS? it's a replayed TAS 19:00 <[Demo]6> this is great 19:00 <[Demo]6> god ive said that 3 times 19:00 also, it doesn't beat that game which overflowed the turn counter, which has to be at least as legitimate as this one 19:00 Luxidream: using all this computing power to hash starting attributes is definitely tool assisted 19:00 this is true 19:00 two 72-core AWS instances... geez 19:01 want 19:01 the six-minute wait is easy enough to explain, too, that's how long it took for a human to TAS finding the fountain 19:03 makes me wonder to what extent RNG manipulation is allowed in speedruns of older games that are easy to manipulate, like some gameboy games 19:04 <[Demo]6> my favorite part is the part where he finds the seed 19:06 Luxidream: it's commonly used in games where it helps a lot 19:07 but not pellsson-style, it's usual to force a particular seed and input memorized inputs from there rather than deduce your current seed and have a bot make a TAS for you 19:08 Cor, I had rejected generating a corpus of every starting position as obviously impractical. 19:08 ... mind you, I think I was thinking of 2^64 of them 19:09 Pinkbeast: why? Adeon's done it b efore 19:09 create a rainbow table of seeds, that is 19:09 -!- Luxidream2 has joined #hardfought 19:09 ais523: Well, a) thinking 2^64 but more b) just a gut feel estimate that was wrong 19:09 I think the person may not have been aware of the 2009 stuff 19:09 at least the writeup doesn't sound like it 19:09 and you can even save a lot of storage by creating a rainbow table for specific timestamps only 19:09 alternative to tourist inventory is wizard discoveries list 19:10 Pinkbeast: for a while, NH4 had a bug which caused it to iterate over all integers upon entering Vlad's 19:10 I noticed that it was being a bit slow, but computers count to 4 billion so quickly these days :-) 19:10 technically it's probably 36 CPU WAS instances because AWS counts hyperthreads as "cores" misleadingly because it sounds better 19:10 that's where I thought it's so inefficient, who wants to pay for that :) 19:10 ais523: Just as well that wain't in 64-bit :-) 19:11 Adeon: did you ever actually /use/ the rainbow table? I know you created it, but am not sure if you did anything with it 19:11 yes it was used for something 19:11 it was 10 years ago and there are no writeups 19:11 but in vague memory the rainbow table was used for some seed lookup 19:11 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: sorry for my connection] 19:12 I think it might have been the artifact naming thing 19:12 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 19:12 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v ais523] by ChanServ 19:12 I think it might have been the artifact naming thing 19:12 oh right, using fingerslips to find the seed dynamically 19:12 for crawl I did simliar thing but the table would not uniquely identify the seed because there's not that much randomized 19:12 that would mean you wouldn't have to store the whole rainbow table 19:12 so the first step would create a candidate set 19:12 and thenI run actual crawl process for the remaining values 19:13 -!- Luxidream has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:13 i.e. the first step replicates enough crawl code to do it fast without actually running crawl 19:13 I think I did not do that for nethack 19:13 unnecessary because the stuff is unique enough already you can infer from inventory and discoveries 19:15 the most impressive part of this thing is the bot that ascends right after you get to fountain 19:15 that is pretty crazy logic to make a bot ascend 19:17 [hdf-us] [slshm] Disruptor (Ice Vam Mal Cha), 4448 points, T:3081, killed by a little dog 19:18 Adeon: it's much simpler than it seems, it's basically just do random things until something good happens, it's a TAS so there are no consequences 19:18 the strategy for the sanctum was, apparently, literally just "jump at random until you get the amulet" 19:19 which doesn't work in normal games, but does if you keep brute-forcing until it happens 19:19 <@carlarc> amazing 19:19 yeah that part 19:20 that is impressive 19:20 the turncount might look good, but it's actually pretty bad for a TAS 19:20 at least for me 19:21 the time saving over, say, bones-stuffed gametime runs is probably entirely or almost entirely from mysterious force and portal locations (nearby + knowing where they are) 19:23 [hdf-us] [slshm] Disruptor (Ice Vam Mal Cha), 90 points, T:787, killed by Mr. Haynin, the shopkeeper 19:24 Luxidream2: "legitimately" would then by that definition also include Adeon's original "killed by kicking a wand of wishing" nonsense. 19:25 I thought that was Sartak? 19:25 <@Tone> When I watched the ttyrec earlier, I noticed that the jumping pattern was pretty odd. This definitely explains that. 19:25 ah that was actually someone else 19:25 sartak 19:25 or eidolos 19:25 or whatever name he uses 19:25 both, same person 19:26 I just don't know to what extent this would have been okay. If the seed had been determined and an ordinary playthrough occurred without the bot would that have been considered a normal speedrun? 19:27 <@Tone> ais523 Yeah I noticed several points where turns were wasted unnecessarily after turn 2000 19:27