00:00 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:02 [hdf-us] [nh361] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 21122 points, T:7681, killed by a blue jelly 00:04 -!- Tarmunora_ has joined #hardfought 00:04 <@luxidream> that was rough :/ 00:05 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 00:07 -!- Tarmunora__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:13 -!- Luxidream has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20 see my previous post about passive agressive attitudes of jellies, especially the blue ones. 00:26 lol random +3 orcish helm 00:31 all I need now is a prompt "you're about to do something stupid. Proceed? [yes/no]" 00:33 master mind flayer pet, nice 00:36 I've been getting quite lucky with armor this game 00:39 !pm 00:47 [hdf-us] [xnh] PavelB (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1317 points, T:3040, killed by a bolt of lightning, while taking off clothes 00:48 Specifically, by a wand of lighting stolen by a nymph 00:48 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 00:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 01:08 -!- trisk0 has joined #hardfought 01:08 -!- trisk0 has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 01:13 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:8318 01:21 -!- boser13 has joined #hardfought 01:21 -!- boser13 has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 01:22 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 01:27 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:30 -!- introsp3ctive has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:30 -!- SuchWow7 has joined #hardfought 01:30 -!- SuchWow7 has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 01:32 -!- introsp3ctive has joined #hardfought 01:33 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Cha) made her first wish - "blessed rustproof +2 gauntlets of power", on T:10186 01:40 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:52 -!- Tarmunora_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53 -!- Tarmunora_ has joined #hardfought 02:42 YASI/EPI: triggering a trap (e.g. electric shock trap) on a box/chest doesn't actually remove it, so the next time you try to open the container it triggers again. You have to successfully untrap it to remove the trap. 02:50 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:23 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 03:28 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:34 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:50 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 03:51 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 04:07 -!- sacredchao has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:41 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1] 04:54 -!- mdroid has joined #hardfought 04:54 -!- mdroid has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 05:24 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 05:29 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:00 -!- stalled22 has joined #hardfought 06:00 -!- stalled22 has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 06:31 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:25 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 07:31 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:42 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 07:42 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 08:03 -!- thisisbilly0 has joined #hardfought 08:03 -!- thisisbilly0 has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 08:04 -!- sacredchao has joined #hardfought 08:09 -!- sacredchao has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:10 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:23 !who 08:23 Tangles: [hdf-us] No current players | [hdf-eu] PeterQ [dnh] | [hdf-au] No current players 08:25 morning 08:25 lesson learned, don't forget any semicolons in extern.h, it will cause several thousand lines of errors 08:28 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 08:47 ;) 08:58 <[Demo]> heh 09:18 -!- Chris_ANG has joined #hardfought 09:19 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Suddenly, Raisse disappears out of sight.] 09:19 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 09:19 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 09:27 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 09:29 -!- berndj28 has joined #hardfought 09:29 -!- berndj28 has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 09:31 -!- Luxidream has joined #hardfought 09:32 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:33 -!- Luxidream2 has joined #hardfought 09:36 -!- Luxidream has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 10:04 -!- puck___ has joined #hardfought 10:05 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:2414 10:09 aosdict: YANI for xnethack: alarm trap on doors, which not only wakes up monsters but also summons a "security force" (of unspecified type, maybe ogres or other intelligent humanoids) on the level's up/downstair who will then come for you ;) 10:15 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:5260 10:20 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:6630 10:27 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 10:29 Beholder: messages? 10:30 <[Demo]> :( 10:32 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Medusa, on T:7413 10:39 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) made her first wish - "2 blessed greased scrolls of charging", on T:7931 10:39 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased wand of polymorph", on T:7931 10:39 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "uncursed fixed greased magic marker", on T:7934 10:40 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased ring of conflict", on T:7973 10:43 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) polymorphed her first object, on T:8143 10:44 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law), 135039 points, T:8237, killed by an invisible storm giant 10:47 -!- vok` has joined #hardfought 10:47 -!- vok` has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 11:14 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:15 -!- BenLand1008 has joined #hardfought 11:15 -!- BenLand1008 has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 11:28 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 11:33 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:42 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:43 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 11:44 -!- Hrogart has joined #hardfought 11:49 [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:44317 11:49 LarienTelrunya: Kops? 11:58 kops could work well if not for the fact that I might get rid of them at some point 12:02 <[Demo]> why would you get rid of them? 12:02 <@rikersan> cuz they suck 12:03 <@luxidream> they're pretty good 12:03 <@luxidream> they keep the shopkeeper from actually getting to you lol 12:03 <@luxidream> and free food 12:04 <@luxidream> don't put the keter sephiroth in xnh please 12:05 <@rikersan> at least without fixing them 12:06 * aosdict wouldn't put anything named sephiroth in the game without playing final fantasy first 12:06 also I have no plans to play final fantasy 12:07 [hdf-us] [fh] Terrapin (terrapin) (Hea Gno Mal Neu), 39188 points, T:14691, killed by a blast of frost 12:09 aosdict: Seriously tho, what's wrong with kops? 12:09 <[Demo]> shit flavor 12:10 <[Demo]> also keter in dnh aren't too unbalanced 12:10 <[Demo]> just don't piss them off 12:10 <[Demo]> or you die 12:10 Well, originally I wanted the K glyph for either dwarves or sea monsters 12:10 but now mind flayers aren't h and sea monsters are z 12:10 so those reasons are gone 12:11 <[Demo]> what are mind falyers now? 12:11 Q 12:11 Sorry, U 12:11 Quantum Mechanics are also U 12:11 Elves are Q 12:11 <[Demo]> what are zruty? Y? 12:11 sea monsters are z? i'm sure nobody will get caught out by that 12:11 zruty are removed 12:12 <[Demo]> what 12:12 <@luxidream> well, they're in the water 12:12 <[Demo]> lmfao 12:12 <@luxidream> you can tell they're not aquatic zruties 12:12 <[Demo]> xnethack does some cool shit but it also does a lot of goofy shit 12:12 Nah, I like the change 12:12 Luxidream2: i am talking about finger memory and genocide 12:12 [Demo]: I think it's pretty likely that if you took vanilla and the ONLY change you made was removing zruties, absolutely no one would notice. 12:12 <[Demo]> mind flayer on U makes sense 12:13 <[Demo]> what colors are they 12:13 purple and bright purple 12:13 <[Demo]> zruty are good food 12:13 <[Demo]> thank god 12:13 <[Demo]> that change is ok 12:13 quantmechs are still cyan 12:13 <[Demo]> it's better than blue on h 12:13 I *do* think Zrutys could have just been moved to a different letter 12:13 <[Demo]> slashem moves them to Y 12:13 <@luxidream> give zruties swimming 12:13 <@luxidream> add them back to z 12:13 <[Demo]> zruty could be U 12:14 I considered it, but... what's really the point, they're supposed to be just another sort of giant and we have a ton of those already 12:14 <[Demo]> they are slow 12:14 <[Demo]> and hit hard 12:14 and they have nothing special about them at all 12:14 even H can throw boulders and break doors 12:15 It's such a minor thing it doesn't really matter 12:15 [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:46590 12:15 <@luxidream> LarienTelrunya should add 5 different kinds of zruty to compensaye 12:16 <@luxidream> for our loss 12:17 <[Demo]> good plan 12:18 <[Demo]> Frost zruty, shock zruty, fire zruty, ice zruty, troll zruty 12:19 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:726 12:19 * aosdict checks slex's monst.c in all its hundreds of megabytes glory to see how many zruties it already has 12:19 make foocubi bisexual, the enforced heterosexuality is weird 12:19 nooodle: the player is assumed to be heterosexual 12:19 yes but they aren't the player 12:19 they're trying to kill you, what do they care 12:19 foocubi probably are bisexual, but they can't seduce someone who isn't attracted to them 12:20 ...wait 12:20 no 12:20 if they can seduce someone holding a trice corpse to remove their gloves and *die* then I think the person's prior desires don't make sense 12:20 why slex 12:20 don't factor in, that is 12:20 Mistakes were made https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/TPtpk3SK/image.png 12:21 [hdf-us] [xnh] PavelB (Val Dwa Fem Law), 217 points, T:1439, killed by a water demon 12:21 <@luxidream> nymphs can seduce female characters 12:21 <@rikersan> a moment of silence for your loss 12:21 stop fountain scumming 12:21 <@luxidream> why is this possible if every nethack PC is straight 12:22 nymphs charm, not seduce 12:22 and iirc there's actually some different nymph behavior if you're female. may just be cosmetic 12:22 <@luxidream> then why do you start taking off your clothes 12:23 <@IceBox> my guess would be that, though nethack PC's might be straight, nymphs are not 12:24 <@IceBox> so they BOTH charm and seduce 12:24 <@IceBox> charming the PC must loosen up their orientation a bit 12:25 YASI: bicurious intrinsic that times out and makes you susceptible to opposite gender foocubi seduction 12:25 -!- deadnoob has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:26 What does "The kitten whimpers." mean? 12:26 <@luxidream> how to obtain it? 12:26 <@luxidream> trap nearby 12:26 <@luxidream> and your pet is leashed 12:26 Cool 12:26 Does that mean the pet will know not to step on said trap 12:26 the thing is, the foocubus special attack isn't consensual, so... i don't think the preferences of the player matter. But also I question whether "the player is assumed to be heterosexual" is really a thing that should be kept up in the year 2018 of our lord 12:27 PavelB: what monsters know and what they do about it are a bit different 12:27 it knows about the trap but may step on it anyway, because monster AI logic 12:28 nooodle: well one of slex's nicer features is you can choose your character's orientation. 12:28 nooodle: the whole thing is pretty bad taste anyway, I guess that's why it's optional 12:28 <@IceBox> noodle: that's a really tough question both for gender AND orientation in this, 2018 the year of our lord 12:28 <@IceBox> i suppose it should be random? 12:28 <@IceBox> or statistically in line with current sexual orientation demographics 12:29 K2: could you update NH4 on hardfought? 12:29 no big changes, just an improvement to the keyboard parser 12:29 no, considering the player's orientation ignores the fact that the foocubi are trying to kill you when they seduce you. The player's orientation doesn't matter, so attempts to factor it in feel more like pandering 12:30 ais523 I'll have to go through Tangles on that one, there's some sort of merge he has to do manually if i recall. 12:30 Are all the foocubi straight tho 12:30 good thing is thathe'll be at my house in a couple days ;) 12:31 half-hearted attempts at "representation" usually just end up worse than no attempt at all. :p 12:31 It is kinda shitty to have presumably nonconsensual sex to be a hazard, imo 12:31 miserymyra, *exactly* 12:31 you can compile it out of vanilla but nobody does 12:32 * ais523 wonders what would happen if I turned it off by default 12:32 nooodle: I think the way it goes is that a straight (for the sake of argument) man/woman can be seduced into removing clothes, giving consent, etc, by an unearthly beautiful woman/man but would resist someone of the same gender. 12:32 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:1806 12:32 it's an interesting mechanic though, though it does overlap a lot with what nymphs do. I mean, it does make wielding c corpses more dangerous 12:33 a disrobing attack generally is probably a reasonable thing to have 12:33 ais523: assuming the changes propagate to a large server like NAO, tons and tons of people would yell at you for removing their level/Pw farming 12:33 aosdict: right, the actual game results (other than the disrobing) are dubiously balanced 12:33 but maybe important for pacifists 12:34 ais523 no github repo? 12:34 K2: there's a git repo; I'm not personally a fan of github so I don't host the repo there 12:34 it also makes kicking sinks more interesting. So I like the monster idea. I just think they can be unisex or bi and leave it up to the player's imagination. I understand one *can* construct a rationale for why it is the way it is, but... why 12:34 I'm pretty sure at least one person is mirroring it on github, but I can't remember where offhand 12:35 https://github.com/NHTangles/nethack4 12:36 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 12:36 I'd appreciate better representations of sexuality in video games, but if it boils down to "which genders would you like to maybe have nonconsensual sex with," then it doesn't feel like good representation to me 12:36 ^^^ miserymyra totally agree 12:39 (I'm speaking as a bi person, for what it's worth) 12:40 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) made her first wish - "blessed fixed greased +2 silver dragon scale mail", on T:4546 12:40 nhinrl is all i'm sayin 12:41 * hothraxxa doesn't actually run around killing everybody and eating the corpses 12:41 most days 12:42 <[Demo]> Yeah I agree with hothraxxa 12:42 so by ancient lore, succubi are female demons who have sex with sleeping men 12:42 and incubus are vice versa 12:43 aye. when i were a wee a lad, i learned about them and spent a lot of time sleeping for a while 12:43 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) performed her first genocide (class L), on T:5187 12:43 so perhaps for nethack to keep up with sociological changes for the 21st century, we make a new foocubi 12:43 one that's bi 12:43 or two genders that are gay 12:43 whatever 12:44 pretty sure we gave this a thorough going over when antigulp introduced the lord of the foocubi 12:44 In some interpretations, incubi and succubi are the same creatures, and they merely change form based on who they're seducing 12:44 hmm 12:45 <[Demo]> nethack should have more genders 12:45 i noticed that the lord of the foocubi now has a name and did not steal anything while i beat him up 12:45 i didnt even encounter it in my last game 12:45 <[Demo]> I hate that guy 12:46 [Demo]: Agreed, but unironically 12:46 didn't think you could avoid seeing him 12:46 maybe not having to fight 12:46 <[Demo]> blindfold 12:46 <[Demo]> lol 12:48 blindfold is how you'd see him 12:48 once you perform the onvocation, you're nuts not to scan every level you enter for demon lords 12:48 <[Demo]> fine, irl blindfold 12:48 hmm idea 12:49 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fixed +2 cloak of magic resistance", on T:6418 12:49 new option for setting up your character, when you select male or female, you also select whether you're straight/gay/bi etc 12:49 But, yeah, no representation is sometimes better than bad representation (at least in some respects), so if people want to add more representation, there needs to be some effort to make sure it's good 12:49 <[Demo]> You'd need too many options 12:49 <[Demo]> or you'd leave someone out 12:49 and then based off of those settings, determines which foocibi interact with you and how 12:50 meaning both succubus and incubus can swing both ways 12:50 splicehack amulet run kit: blindfold, potion of paralysis, blessed scroll of time, ring of free action, +7 silver weapon, cursed potion of gain level 12:50 <[Demo]> if someone wants to make gayhack they should 12:50 <[Demo]> that would be funny 12:50 but to try and include every gender identity in any game would be a bad idea imo 12:50 too much complexity 12:50 i name my first foocubi suckoff and the second succme. just sayin 12:51 <[Demo]> lol 12:51 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 12:51 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 12:52 arent there something like 50+ distinct gender identities now? 12:52 seems excessive 12:52 i think including every possible gender identity isn't really something anyone has asked for, and would be silly 12:52 nhinrl is all i'm sayin 12:53 wtf does that mean 12:53 nhinrl 12:53 <[Demo]> nethack is not real life 12:53 ah 12:53 ^^^ 12:53 i'm a bit shocked here 12:53 and then physically, i think there's what... 5 actual physically distinct and verified genders within the human race 12:54 those are sexes. But yes, at least 5 12:54 Gender/sex is kind of a more nebulous thing than you'd expect 12:55 see this is not the sort of thing you ask the googles about 12:55 or maybe you do 12:55 who else you gonna ask? 12:55 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 12:55 But, anyway, most people would be satisfied with having pronoun options with corresponding gendered or gender neutral language in games 12:55 miserymyra, that's a good choice, yes 12:56 "you 12:56 "He," "she," and "they" cover most people with a lot of distinct gender identities 12:56 is nicely gender neutral 12:56 <[Demo]> that's dumb semantics and petty 12:56 I know someone who calls themself "they" or "it" 12:56 so from a quick search online - scientifically (this is not accounting how someone mentally identifies) there are 8 sexes and three genders 12:57 for humans? 12:57 yes 12:57 in real life i am actually nb and use they pronouns, and while i *personally* don't care a lot about being "Cavewoman" or "Caveman", it would be nice to have "Caveperson" with they/them :p 12:57 what is nb 12:57 * raisse is baffled at the sexes (and privately thinks there might be more genders but that's only a matter of granularity) 12:57 non-binary 12:57 <[Demo]> nonbinary 12:57 ah 12:57 doesn't identify as either man or woman 12:57 I can't believe "tooty zruty" wasn't suggested. 12:57 spews a cloud of poison gas 12:57 * hothraxxa suggest tooty zrooty 12:58 +s 12:58 <[Demo]> fruity zruty, a foocubus 12:58 this discussion does not account for language differences 12:59 * raisse opts for "zlorfik" 12:59 we are ugly bags of mostly water, as i recall 12:59 K2: It's more complicated than that, of course. Scientific definitions for gender and sex are somewhat arbitrary, and they often don't correspond to various cultural ideas of gender that are usually more meaningful in everyday interaction 13:00 I'm currently (well, not exactly currently, but in "office" hours) in a conference with an above average contingent of non-gender-conforming people 13:00 ) 13:00 so the way i read it... sex determination is physical/genetic. gender would be a social construct 13:01 sex is also socially constructed. But it's based on physical features, ya 13:01 and of course the social ascept gets complicated 13:01 is vienna the only major european city with 1km walk from the main station to the metro? 13:01 aspect 13:01 bleh 13:02 "ascept" is a nice word and I'll squirrel it away and use it for something 13:02 nooodle: sex would not be the social bit. sex defined in terms of genetic/physical configuration 13:02 Sure, but even then, "sex" isn't super clear cut. It's based on a combination of genetic traits and physical features, and a lot of people don't correspond to the "usual" combinations associated with male and female humans 13:03 gender would cover the social aspect 13:03 which is why you now have 50+ different genders 13:03 which technically can have no bearing on your physical makeup whatsoever 13:03 Sex is based on physical features, but the "space" of possible configurations of features is vast, and the way scientists have decided to divide that up is somewhat arbitrary / dependent on their social context 13:03 it's not simple like a phase diagram for water 13:04 of course not 13:04 heh 13:05 If there are 50+ genders than the concept is meaningless 13:05 I can just "invent" my own if I want 13:05 Go for it. Follow your dreams 13:05 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "2 blessed greased scrolls of charging", on T:9628 13:05 as i said earlier, i did. never worked 13:05 make syou wonder how many males and females are truly XY/XX and how many are of a different sex and are unaware 13:06 PavelB thats the point i think 13:06 There are a lot of people who are intersex and unaware of it 13:06 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased ring of levitation", on T:9631 13:06 PavelB: sorry I was afk cooking food, but now I'm back :) kops would work early on, but they probably become irrelevant quickly since their rubber hoses and cream pies do so little damage 13:06 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased ring of conflict", on T:9638 13:07 also thanks to everyone who suggested various flavors of zruty, will implement :) 13:07 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 13:07 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fireproof bag of holding", on T:9638 13:07 A lot of babies get surgery if their primary sex characteristics aren't clearly male or female 13:07 Luxidream2: why do you stream when i sleep 13:07 hell yeah what a good discussion to roll into =] 13:07 * deadnoob is enby as heck 13:07 enby <3 <3 13:07 what is enby 13:07 nonbinary -> nb -> enby 13:08 ah same thing 13:08 non-binary 13:08 i need a cheat sheet 13:08 people opted to pronounce "nb" as enby and write it that way because NB was already commonly used to refer to non-black people of color 13:08 <[Demo]> it'll probably be outdated by the time it's made 13:08 <[Demo]> genders are like javascript libraries 13:08 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a master mind flayer, on T:9761 13:08 inbee 13:08 start using that 13:08 its really not that difficult 13:09 -!- hothraxxa has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:09 ^ stenno is right 13:09 But, yeah, you don't need to include every gender in your games. It's just nice when the option is there 13:09 Like I said, "he, she, and they" cover most people 13:09 letting people use he/she/they is a huge step forward and i'm excited to see more games adopting it 13:09 like for their character's pronoun 13:09 LarienTelrunya: you could lead the front on this for nethack based games 13:09 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) entered Gehennom, on T:9969 13:10 include a 'they' identifier 13:10 K2: huh, you mean with the different genders/sexes/whatnot? someone on 4chan already tried to bugger me into making 32 genders :P 13:10 but this is kind of getting at my original point, which is, if they had just made the player non-gendered from the very beginning (with, say, singular 'they' pronouns), it wouldn't have been an issue... they decided to try to include gender but then did it in a simplistic way. 13:10 for slex that is 13:11 but even if I were to make such a thing... how to make them actually different gameplay-wise without stepping on anyone's toes? or the alternative would be to have it just be cosmetic 13:11 -!- hothraxxa has joined #hardfought 13:11 we need pansexual foocubi 13:11 Just cosmetic is usually fine 13:11 also "flags.female" (which is a boolean) is used in so many places in the code and one would have to rewrite a ton of stuff 13:11 simplest appraoch i could think of is what i mentioned earlier in regards to foocubi 13:11 deadnoob: lol that was the original thing that kicked off this discussion 13:11 i see ;p 13:12 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v hothraxxa] by ChanServ 13:12 i'm surprised to hear that it's used so many places in the code, i can really only think of a few places gender matters in gameplay. Laying eggs... foocubi... pronouns... 13:12 Anyway, sorry to go all SJW on you all 13:12 <[Demo]> Yeah it hurts 13:13 Except for you 13:13 c: 13:13 ^ mood myra 13:13 i'm glad they didn't do what Demon's Souls does and have different armor that can only be used by one gender, that's annoying af 13:13 although SJW is just as meaningless as the word cuck nowadays 13:13 nooodle: I guess slex uses the flag more often, I'd have to grep vanilla's source to see how many of them there are 13:13 peaceful pansexual foocubi should ignore you until you #chat to them (and hostile pansexual foocubi attack you regardless) 13:14 technically, the game referring to male/female as gender would be incorrect 13:14 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Mal Law) averted death, on T:10535 13:14 I generally prefer when gender is a cosmetic thing in games 13:14 same, miserymyra 13:14 is there any game where it's really not a cosmetic? 13:14 Plenty 13:14 apart from, well, nethack 13:15 not the games that i have played then 13:15 ya, as mentioned, in demon's souls it locks you into either male armor or female armor (there are some unisex) 13:15 "Men and women have different stats" is a fairly common thing 13:15 oh i'd call that cosmetics 13:15 but it can have real impact on gameplay 13:15 stenno, no no, they are totally different types of armor. Like there will be a robe set that gives pluses to spellcasting with no male equivalent 13:15 wut 13:16 ROFL 13:16 oh yeah thats stupid then 13:16 isn't it so that in early D&D women would have their strength capped, which rubs even me the wrong way? 13:16 that's dumb as heck 13:16 Some RPGs have classes locked to specific genders 13:16 oh I have another one: the RPG Dungeon Lords has bras as armor, and only female chars can wear them. Male chars can pick them up but they just don't appear in the menu where you can select what you want to wear. So if a male char finds one, the only thing they can do with it is sell it. 13:17 (Like NetHack!) 13:17 nethack has bras? 13:17 nethack has valkyries 13:17 > Some RPGs have classes locked to specific genders 13:17 > (Like NetHack!) 13:17 there was someone who used "edible bra" as their fruit name :D 13:17 but... at least in nethack, your gender *barely* matters and amulets of change are common 13:17 valkyries don't need bras, their boobs aren't subject to gravity 13:17 male valkyries too. i assume they keep the breastplate after the change 13:17 ^ that 13:18 when i play a valkyrie i usually try to find an amulet of change, just to queer it up 13:18 Valyries don't start with armor though 13:18 I've even played RPGs where the classes were completely segregated by gender 13:18 They're stuck with whatever they find lying around 13:18 in many other rpgs the player character is usually seen as an extension of the player, in nethack the pc is more of an instrument of the character 13:18 YANI: circus artist class. Can tame lions, do daring jumps over "bottomless" pits, and catch hostile arrows and crossbow bolts with their bare hands. 13:19 Women can't be knights, men can't be clerics, etc. 13:19 men can't be clerics?! 13:19 you see here a +9 brass codpiece of great strength and excessive bravery 13:19 In early Final Fantasy games (IDK about later ones) white mages were female, red mages were male, etc., but that was because there was only one sprite for each class 13:19 I mean I kind of get (though I don't agree with) "women can't be knights" but cleric is a sort of gender neutral role for me 13:19 In some of the games I've played, yeah 13:20 Diablo 2 has maiden pikes and matriarchal javelins that only the female amazon can equip, no one else can :D 13:20 ooh a matriarchal javelin 13:20 I have three grown-up daughters, can I have one? 13:20 Ogre Battle 64 is the most recent one I've played that has complete class segregation by gender 13:20 in the pen&paper rpg i played it was made very clear in the introduction that any gender can play any role without getting different stats or w/e and if you don't think so you shouldn't play this game and also you should probably fuck off from the fantasy genre 13:20 i thought i remembered diablo 2, thank you for confirming that. trying to mentally go through all the games i've played where the straights have cocked it up with their straight propaganda (joking) 13:20 s/0layed/play/ 13:21 * LarienTelrunya starts grinding act 5 hell to procure such a javelin for raisse :) 13:21 LarienTelrunya: those are role-specific weapons, not gender-specific weapons 13:21 And, yeah, Diablo 1 and 2 have specific characters for each class, which means they're gender segregated 13:21 stenno: that's a sensible game 13:22 DSA ftw 13:22 You can't be a female paladin or a male rogue 13:22 our homebrew has 1 paragraph saying something like that too 13:22 Torchlight also has fixed genders: two of the roles (fighter and wizard) are male, the third (archer) is female 13:22 torchlight2 does not have that, however! 13:22 (also we've had trans and intersex PCs and NPCs) 13:22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye 13:22 I love TDE! 13:22 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Lord Surtur, on T:14139 13:22 I know someone who taught himself German from that because it hadn't been translated into Dutch when he wanted to GM it 13:22 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:14140 13:23 I picked up the core rulebook last week and have been trying to convince all my friends to play with me 13:23 i feel like morrowind had some gendered gameplay things... can't recall... 13:23 nice 13:23 at least the elder scrolls and fallout games allow you to freely pick your gender, although it's annoying that some fallout 3 clothing items look completely different when equipped by the other gender 13:23 (and taught himself English from D&D but that's more usual) 13:23 like robes that suddenly develop a cleavage? 13:23 if you have boobs to cause a cleavage 13:23 i also play minecraft 13:23 IIRC some pre-war FO3 outfit looks like a gray business suit on a male character and becomes a green skirt on a female 13:24 where you are literally just a blob 13:24 I'm okay with some gender differences in games if they narratively make sense, though 13:24 I played something that had adjustments for pregnant PCs 13:24 raisse: yes, in FO3 you can even reverse-pickpocket those outfits onto little girls, and then they suddenly develop breasts! 13:24 TDE core rules do mention gender, in the context of the setting, e.g. this part of the world has a matriarchal society and this part of the world women can't own property 13:24 But in most locations it doesn't matter 13:24 Men and women generally aren't treated identically in society, and it's okay for games to reflect that sometimes 13:25 temporarily more acute senses but less speed 13:25 It can be kind of a bummer to be oppressed in your fantasy world, though 13:26 miserymyra 100% yes ^^^ 13:26 Well the cool thing about fantasy worlds is you can burn them to the ground if you want ;) 13:26 not so easy in a P&P rpg 13:26 EPI: if you alchemize a bunch of potions while already having 52 distinct items in inventory and only some of them do get alchemized, whichever potion would occupy slot 53 will fall to the ground and break, exposing you to its fumes. 13:29 stenno: What are you talking about, in a P&P rpg oyu can burn the world with *actual IRL fire*, it's even better 13:30 no like, if the local count or w/e comes and molests you, you cannot just kill the count 13:30 well you can but then your whole group will probably be annihilated 13:31 it more depends on if your GM is sexist in that way though, i guess 13:31 I wouldn't be pleased if my DM fantasy molested my character 13:31 there's other ways to make the pcs hate an npc 13:31 running away from civilization after collosally fucking up and breaking every law on earth is a core part of the D&D experience 13:32 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Juiblex, on T:15195 13:32 That would be grounds for me dropping out of the campaign 13:32 i once showed the bullywugs that took over the town disciplining the children as soldiers and to my pcs that was crossing the line. it's super easy for a GM to make pcs feel feeligns about npcs than inflicting trauma on them 13:32 just have the npc to bad things to other npcs 13:33 (crossing the line as in the npc they were allies with is now someone they want to kill and drive out of town) 13:33 -!- introsp3ctive has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:34 -!- nooodle has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34 sure that are rules that have to be established before you even start playing 13:34 ^^^^ 13:35 <[Demo]> bluepill me daddy 13:35 -!- introsp3ctive has joined #hardfought 13:38 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) averted death, on T:15655 13:38 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) destroyed the invisible Vlad the Impaler, on T:15656 13:38 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:15657 13:39 reverse-pickpocket> reminds me of Lait telling me about early cRPGs where you could pickpocket cows to get steaks 13:39 lol 13:40 <[Demo]> that sounds fun 13:41 That needs to be a thing again 13:42 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:17334 13:43 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) polymorphed her first object, on T:17480 13:45 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) genocided class ;, on T:17533 13:45 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) genocided class R, on T:17534 13:46 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "uncursed fixed greased magic marker", on T:17626 13:47 -!- nooodle has joined #hardfought 13:52 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:18897 13:52 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:18903 13:52 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) performed the invocation, on T:18952 13:55 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the high priestess of Moloch, on T:19103 13:55 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:19107 13:56 livelogging ammy of yendor is vaguely exploitable 13:56 as you know that its the real one 13:57 Same with luckstone in minds 13:57 *mines 13:57 stahp~ uh uhh 13:57 where is my mines 13:57 lol I read "Amy of Yendor" :P 13:58 Same 13:58 you wish lol 13:58 sounds pretty cool though tbh 13:58 -!- raisse has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:59 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:19856 14:00 change the plot so that the macguffin is no longer an amulet but a damsel in distress named Amy, whom you have to free from some evil villain :D 14:00 and then carry all the way to the planes? 14:00 nah, escort! a literal escort mission from hell because the ascension run starts in Gehennom after all :D 14:00 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:20169 14:00 [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Orcus, on T:20184 14:01 -!- Humvee12 has joined #hardfought 14:01 -!- Humvee12 has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 14:02