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00:02 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 21122 points, T:7681, killed by a blue jelly
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00:04 <rld> <@luxidream> that was rough :/
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00:20 <bouquet> see my previous post about passive agressive attitudes of jellies, especially the blue ones.
00:26 <PavelB> lol random +3 orcish helm
00:31 <bouquet> all I need now is a prompt "you're about to do something stupid. Proceed? [yes/no]"
00:33 <bouquet> master mind flayer pet, nice
00:36 <PavelB> I've been getting quite lucky with armor this game
00:39 <bouquet> !pm
00:47 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [xnh] PavelB (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1317 points, T:3040, killed by a bolt of lightning, while taking off clothes
00:48 <PavelB> Specifically, by a wand of lighting stolen by a nymph
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01:13 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:8318
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01:33 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Mon Hum Fem Cha) made her first wish - "blessed rustproof +2 gauntlets of power", on T:10186
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02:42 <LarienTelrunya> YASI/EPI: triggering a trap (e.g. electric shock trap) on a box/chest doesn't actually remove it, so the next time you try to open the container it triggers again. You have to successfully untrap it to remove the trap.
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08:23 <Tangles> !who
08:23 <Beholder> Tangles: [hdf-us] No current players | [hdf-eu] PeterQ [dnh] | [hdf-au] No current players
08:25 <K2> morning
08:25 <aosdict> lesson learned, don't forget any semicolons in extern.h, it will cause several thousand lines of errors
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08:47 <K2> ;)
08:58 <[Demo]> heh
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10:05 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:2414
10:09 <LarienTelrunya> aosdict: YANI for xnethack: alarm trap on doors, which not only wakes up monsters but also summons a "security force" (of unspecified type, maybe ogres or other intelligent humanoids) on the level's up/downstair who will then come for you ;)
10:15 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:5260
10:20 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:6630
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10:29 <ais523> Beholder: messages?
10:30 <[Demo]> :(
10:32 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Medusa, on T:7413
10:39 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) made her first wish - "2 blessed greased scrolls of charging", on T:7931
10:39 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased wand of polymorph", on T:7931
10:39 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "uncursed fixed greased magic marker", on T:7934
10:40 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased ring of conflict", on T:7973
10:43 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) polymorphed her first object, on T:8143
10:44 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law), 135039 points, T:8237, killed by an invisible storm giant
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11:49 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:44317
11:49 <PavelB> LarienTelrunya: Kops?
11:58 <aosdict> kops could work well if not for the fact that I might get rid of them at some point
12:02 <[Demo]> why would you get rid of them?
12:02 <rld> <@rikersan> cuz they suck
12:03 <rld> <@luxidream> they're pretty good
12:03 <rld> <@luxidream> they keep the shopkeeper from actually getting to you lol
12:03 <rld> <@luxidream> and free food
12:04 <rld> <@luxidream> don't put the keter sephiroth in xnh please
12:05 <rld> <@rikersan> at least without fixing them
12:06 * aosdict wouldn't put anything named sephiroth in the game without playing final fantasy first
12:06 <aosdict> also I have no plans to play final fantasy
12:07 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [fh] Terrapin (terrapin) (Hea Gno Mal Neu), 39188 points, T:14691, killed by a blast of frost
12:09 <PavelB> aosdict: Seriously tho, what's wrong with kops?
12:09 <[Demo]> shit flavor
12:10 <[Demo]> also keter in dnh aren't too unbalanced
12:10 <[Demo]> just don't piss them off
12:10 <[Demo]> or you die
12:10 <aosdict> Well, originally I wanted the K glyph for either dwarves or sea monsters
12:10 <aosdict> but now mind flayers aren't h and sea monsters are z
12:10 <aosdict> so those reasons are gone
12:11 <[Demo]> what are mind falyers now?
12:11 <PavelB> Q
12:11 <PavelB> Sorry, U
12:11 <PavelB> Quantum Mechanics are also U
12:11 <PavelB> Elves are Q
12:11 <[Demo]> what are zruty? Y?
12:11 <hothraxxa> sea monsters are z? i'm sure nobody will get caught out by that
12:11 <PavelB> zruty are removed
12:12 <[Demo]> what
12:12 <rld> <@luxidream> well, they're in the water
12:12 <[Demo]> lmfao
12:12 <rld> <@luxidream> you can tell they're not aquatic zruties
12:12 <[Demo]> xnethack does some cool shit but it also does a lot of goofy shit
12:12 <PavelB> Nah, I like the change
12:12 <hothraxxa> Luxidream2: i am talking about finger memory and genocide
12:12 <aosdict> [Demo]: I think it's pretty likely that if you took vanilla and the ONLY change you made was removing zruties, absolutely no one would notice.
12:12 <[Demo]> mind flayer on U makes sense
12:13 <[Demo]> what colors are they
12:13 <aosdict> purple and bright purple
12:13 <[Demo]> zruty are good food
12:13 <[Demo]> thank god
12:13 <[Demo]> that change is ok
12:13 <aosdict> quantmechs are still cyan
12:13 <[Demo]> it's better than blue on h
12:13 <PavelB> I *do* think Zrutys could have just been moved to a different letter
12:13 <[Demo]> slashem moves them to Y
12:13 <rld> <@luxidream> give zruties swimming
12:13 <rld> <@luxidream> add them back to z
12:13 <[Demo]> zruty could be U
12:14 <aosdict> I considered it, but... what's really the point, they're supposed to be just another sort of giant and we have a ton of those already
12:14 <[Demo]> they are slow
12:14 <[Demo]> and hit hard
12:14 <aosdict> and they have nothing special about them at all
12:14 <aosdict> even H can throw boulders and break doors
12:15 <PavelB> It's such a minor thing it doesn't really matter
12:15 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:46590
12:15 <rld> <@luxidream> LarienTelrunya should add 5 different kinds of zruty to compensaye
12:16 <rld> <@luxidream> for our loss
12:17 <[Demo]> good plan
12:18 <[Demo]> Frost zruty, shock zruty, fire zruty, ice zruty, troll zruty
12:19 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:726
12:19 * aosdict checks slex's monst.c in all its hundreds of megabytes glory to see how many zruties it already has
12:19 <nooodle> make foocubi bisexual, the enforced heterosexuality is weird
12:19 <aosdict> nooodle: the player is assumed to be heterosexual
12:19 <nooodle> yes but they aren't the player
12:19 <nooodle> they're trying to kill you, what do they care
12:19 <aosdict> foocubi probably are bisexual, but they can't seduce someone who isn't attracted to them
12:20 <aosdict> ...wait
12:20 <aosdict> no
12:20 <nooodle> if they can seduce someone holding a trice corpse to remove their gloves and *die* then I think the person's prior desires don't make sense
12:20 <aosdict> why slex
12:20 <nooodle> don't factor in, that is
12:20 <PavelB> Mistakes were made https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/TPtpk3SK/image.png
12:21 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [xnh] PavelB (Val Dwa Fem Law), 217 points, T:1439, killed by a water demon
12:21 <rld> <@luxidream> nymphs can seduce female characters
12:21 <rld> <@rikersan> a moment of silence for your loss
12:21 <aosdict> stop fountain scumming
12:21 <rld> <@luxidream> why is this possible if every nethack PC is straight
12:22 <aosdict> nymphs charm, not seduce
12:22 <aosdict> and iirc there's actually some different nymph behavior if you're female. may just be cosmetic
12:22 <rld> <@luxidream> then why do you start taking off your clothes
12:23 <rld> <@IceBox> my guess would be that, though nethack PC's might be straight, nymphs are not
12:24 <rld> <@IceBox> so they BOTH charm and seduce
12:24 <rld> <@IceBox> charming the PC must loosen up their orientation a bit
12:25 <aosdict> YASI: bicurious intrinsic that times out and makes you susceptible to opposite gender foocubi seduction
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12:26 <PavelB> What does "The kitten whimpers." mean?
12:26 <rld> <@luxidream> how to obtain it?
12:26 <rld> <@luxidream> trap nearby
12:26 <rld> <@luxidream> and your pet is leashed
12:26 <PavelB> Cool
12:26 <PavelB> Does that mean the pet will know not to step on said trap
12:26 <nooodle> the thing is, the foocubus special attack isn't consensual, so... i don't think the preferences of the player matter. But also I question whether "the player is assumed to be heterosexual" is really a thing that should be kept up in the year 2018 of our lord
12:27 <ais523> PavelB: what monsters know and what they do about it are a bit different
12:27 <ais523> it knows about the trap but may step on it anyway, because monster AI logic
12:28 <aosdict> nooodle: well one of slex's nicer features is you can choose your character's orientation.
12:28 <ais523> nooodle: the whole thing is pretty bad taste anyway, I guess that's why it's optional
12:28 <rld> <@IceBox> noodle: that's a really tough question both for gender AND orientation in this, 2018 the year of our lord
12:28 <rld> <@IceBox> i suppose it should be random?
12:28 <rld> <@IceBox> or statistically in line with current sexual orientation demographics
12:29 <ais523> K2: could you update NH4 on hardfought?
12:29 <ais523> no big changes, just an improvement to the keyboard parser
12:29 <nooodle> no, considering the player's orientation ignores the fact that the foocubi are trying to kill you when they seduce you. The player's orientation doesn't matter, so attempts to factor it in feel more like pandering
12:30 <K2> ais523 I'll have to go through Tangles on that one, there's some sort of merge he has to do manually if i recall.
12:30 <PavelB> Are all the foocubi straight tho
12:30 <K2> good thing is thathe'll be at my house in a couple days ;)
12:31 <nooodle> half-hearted attempts at "representation" usually just end up worse than no attempt at all. :p 
12:31 <MiseryMyra> It is kinda shitty to have presumably nonconsensual sex to be a hazard, imo
12:31 <nooodle> miserymyra, *exactly*
12:31 <ais523> you can compile it out of vanilla but nobody does
12:32 * ais523 wonders what would happen if I turned it off by default
12:32 <aosdict> nooodle: I think the way it goes is that a straight (for the sake of argument) man/woman can be seduced into removing clothes, giving consent, etc, by an unearthly beautiful woman/man but would resist someone of the same gender.
12:32 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:1806
12:32 <nooodle> it's an interesting mechanic though, though it does overlap a lot with what nymphs do. I mean, it does make wielding c corpses more dangerous
12:33 <ais523> a disrobing attack generally is probably a reasonable thing to have
12:33 <aosdict> ais523: assuming the changes propagate to a large server like NAO, tons and tons of people would yell at you for removing their level/Pw farming
12:33 <ais523> aosdict: right, the actual game results (other than the disrobing) are dubiously balanced
12:33 <ais523> but maybe important for pacifists
12:34 <K2> ais523 no github repo?
12:34 <ais523> K2: there's a git repo; I'm not personally a fan of github so I don't host the repo there
12:34 <nooodle> it also makes kicking sinks more interesting. So I like the monster idea. I just think they can be unisex or bi and leave it up to the player's imagination. I understand one *can* construct a rationale for why it is the way it is, but... why
12:34 <ais523> I'm pretty sure at least one person is mirroring it on github, but I can't remember where offhand
12:35 <K2> https://github.com/NHTangles/nethack4
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12:36 <MiseryMyra> I'd appreciate better representations of sexuality in video games, but if it boils down to "which genders would you like to maybe have nonconsensual sex with," then it doesn't feel like good representation to me
12:36 <nooodle> ^^^ miserymyra totally agree
12:39 <MiseryMyra> (I'm speaking as a bi person, for what it's worth)
12:40 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) made her first wish - "blessed fixed greased +2 silver dragon scale mail", on T:4546
12:40 <hothraxxa> nhinrl is all i'm sayin
12:41 * hothraxxa doesn't actually run around killing everybody and eating the corpses
12:41 <hothraxxa> most days
12:42 <[Demo]> Yeah I agree with hothraxxa
12:42 <K2> so by ancient lore, succubi are female demons who have sex with sleeping men
12:42 <K2> and incubus are vice versa
12:43 <hothraxxa> aye. when i were a wee a lad, i learned about them and spent a lot of time sleeping for a while
12:43 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) performed her first genocide (class L), on T:5187
12:43 <K2> so perhaps for nethack to keep up with sociological changes for the 21st century, we make a new foocubi
12:43 <K2> one that's bi
12:43 <K2> or two genders that are gay
12:43 <K2> whatever
12:44 <hothraxxa> pretty sure we gave this a thorough going over when antigulp introduced the lord of the foocubi
12:44 <MiseryMyra> In some interpretations, incubi and succubi are the same creatures, and they merely change form based on who they're seducing
12:44 <K2> hmm
12:45 <[Demo]> nethack should have more genders
12:45 <hothraxxa> i noticed that the lord of the foocubi now has a name and did not steal anything while i beat him up
12:45 <K2> i didnt even encounter it in my last game
12:45 <[Demo]> I hate that guy
12:46 <MiseryMyra> [Demo]: Agreed, but unironically
12:46 <hothraxxa> didn't think you could avoid seeing him 
12:46 <hothraxxa> maybe not having to fight
12:46 <[Demo]> blindfold
12:46 <[Demo]> lol
12:48 <hothraxxa> blindfold is how you'd see him
12:48 <hothraxxa> once you perform the onvocation, you're nuts not to scan every level you enter for demon lords
12:48 <[Demo]> fine, irl blindfold
12:48 <K2> hmm idea
12:49 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fixed +2 cloak of magic resistance", on T:6418
12:49 <K2> new option for setting up your character, when you select male or female, you also select whether you're straight/gay/bi etc
12:49 <MiseryMyra> But, yeah, no representation is sometimes better than bad representation (at least in some respects), so if people want to add more representation, there needs to be some effort to make sure it's good
12:49 <[Demo]> You'd need too many options
12:49 <[Demo]> or you'd leave someone out
12:49 <K2> and then based off of those settings, determines which foocibi interact with you and how
12:50 <K2> meaning both succubus and incubus can swing both ways
12:50 <hothraxxa> splicehack amulet run kit: blindfold, potion of paralysis, blessed scroll of time, ring of free action, +7 silver weapon, cursed potion of gain level
12:50 <[Demo]> if someone wants to make gayhack they should
12:50 <[Demo]> that would be funny
12:50 <K2> but to try and include every gender identity in any game would be a bad idea imo
12:50 <K2> too much complexity
12:50 <hothraxxa> i name my first foocubi suckoff and the second succme. just sayin
12:51 <[Demo]> lol
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12:52 <K2> arent there something like 50+ distinct gender identities now?
12:52 <hothraxxa> seems excessive
12:52 <nooodle> i think including every possible gender identity isn't really something anyone has asked for, and would be silly
12:52 <hothraxxa> nhinrl is all i'm sayin
12:53 <K2> wtf does that mean
12:53 <K2> nhinrl
12:53 <[Demo]> nethack is not real life
12:53 <K2> ah
12:53 <hothraxxa> ^^^
12:53 <hothraxxa> i'm a bit shocked here
12:53 <K2> and then physically, i think there's what... 5 actual physically distinct and verified genders within the human race
12:54 <nooodle> those are sexes. But yes, at least 5
12:54 <MiseryMyra> Gender/sex is kind of a more nebulous thing than you'd expect
12:55 <hothraxxa> see this is not the sort of thing you ask the googles about
12:55 <hothraxxa> or maybe you do
12:55 <K2> who else you gonna ask?
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12:55 <MiseryMyra> But, anyway, most people would be satisfied with having pronoun options with corresponding gendered or gender neutral language in games
12:55 <nooodle> miserymyra, that's a good choice, yes
12:56 <raisse> "you
12:56 <MiseryMyra> "He," "she," and "they" cover most people with a lot of distinct gender identities
12:56 <raisse> is nicely gender neutral
12:56 <[Demo]> that's dumb semantics and petty
12:56 <raisse> I know someone who calls themself "they" or "it"
12:56 <K2> so from a quick search online - scientifically (this is not accounting how someone mentally identifies) there are 8 sexes and three genders
12:57 <raisse> for humans?
12:57 <K2> yes
12:57 <nooodle> in real life i am actually nb and use they pronouns, and while i *personally* don't care a lot about being "Cavewoman" or "Caveman", it would be nice to have "Caveperson" with they/them :p 
12:57 <K2> what is nb
12:57 * raisse is baffled at the sexes (and privately thinks there might be more genders but that's only a matter of granularity)
12:57 <raisse> non-binary
12:57 <[Demo]> nonbinary
12:57 <K2> ah
12:57 <raisse> doesn't identify as either man or woman
12:57 <bouquet> I can't believe "tooty zruty" wasn't suggested.
12:57 <bouquet> spews a cloud of poison gas
12:57 * hothraxxa suggest tooty zrooty
12:58 <hothraxxa> +s
12:58 <[Demo]> fruity zruty, a foocubus
12:58 <hothraxxa> this discussion does not account for language differences
12:59 * raisse opts for "zlorfik"
12:59 <hothraxxa> we are ugly bags of mostly water, as i recall
12:59 <MiseryMyra> K2: It's more complicated than that, of course. Scientific definitions for gender and sex are somewhat arbitrary, and they often don't correspond to various cultural ideas of gender that are usually more meaningful in everyday interaction
13:00 <raisse> I'm currently (well, not exactly currently, but in "office" hours) in a conference with an above average contingent of non-gender-conforming people
13:00 <raisse> )
13:00 <K2> so the way i read it... sex determination is physical/genetic. gender would be a social construct
13:01 <nooodle> sex is also socially constructed. But it's based on physical features, ya
13:01 <K2> and of course the social ascept gets complicated
13:01 <raisse> is vienna the only major european city with 1km walk from the main station to the metro?
13:01 <K2> aspect
13:01 <K2> bleh
13:02 <raisse> "ascept" is a nice word and I'll squirrel it away and use it for something
13:02 <K2> nooodle: sex would not be the social bit. sex defined in terms of genetic/physical configuration
13:02 <MiseryMyra> Sure, but even then, "sex" isn't super clear cut. It's based on a combination of genetic traits and physical features, and a lot of people don't correspond to the "usual" combinations associated with male and female humans
13:03 <K2> gender would cover the social aspect
13:03 <K2> which is why you now have 50+ different genders
13:03 <K2> which technically can have no bearing on your physical makeup whatsoever
13:03 <nooodle> Sex is based on physical features, but the "space" of possible configurations of features is vast, and the way scientists have decided to divide that up is somewhat arbitrary / dependent on their social context
13:03 <nooodle> it's not simple like a phase diagram for water
13:04 <K2> of course not
13:04 <K2> heh
13:05 <PavelB> If there are 50+ genders than the concept is meaningless
13:05 <PavelB> I can just "invent" my own if I want
13:05 <MiseryMyra> Go for it. Follow your dreams
13:05 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "2 blessed greased scrolls of charging", on T:9628
13:05 <hothraxxa> as i said earlier, i did. never worked
13:05 <K2> make syou wonder how many males and females are truly XY/XX and how many are of a different sex and are unaware
13:06 <K2> PavelB thats the point i think
13:06 <MiseryMyra> There are a lot of people who are intersex and unaware of it
13:06 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased ring of levitation", on T:9631
13:06 <LarienTelrunya> PavelB: sorry I was afk cooking food, but now I'm back :) kops would work early on, but they probably become irrelevant quickly since their rubber hoses and cream pies do so little damage
13:06 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased ring of conflict", on T:9638
13:07 <LarienTelrunya> also thanks to everyone who suggested various flavors of zruty, will implement :)
13:07 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought
13:07 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fireproof bag of holding", on T:9638
13:07 <MiseryMyra> A lot of babies get surgery if their primary sex characteristics aren't clearly male or female
13:07 <stenno> Luxidream2: why do you stream when i sleep
13:07 <deadnoob> hell yeah what a good discussion to roll into =]
13:07 * deadnoob is enby as heck
13:07 <nooodle> enby <3 <3 
13:07 <K2> what is enby
13:07 <deadnoob> nonbinary -> nb -> enby
13:08 <K2> ah same thing
13:08 <stenno> non-binary
13:08 <K2> i need a cheat sheet
13:08 <deadnoob> people opted to pronounce "nb" as enby and write it that way because NB was already commonly used to refer to non-black people of color
13:08 <[Demo]> it'll probably be outdated by the time it's made
13:08 <[Demo]> genders are like javascript libraries
13:08 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a master mind flayer, on T:9761
13:08 <K2> inbee
13:08 <K2> start using that
13:08 <stenno> its really not that difficult
13:09 -!- hothraxxa has quit [Quit: Page closed]
13:09 <deadnoob> ^ stenno is right
13:09 <MiseryMyra> But, yeah, you don't need to include every gender in your games. It's just nice when the option is there
13:09 <MiseryMyra> Like I said, "he, she, and they" cover most people
13:09 <deadnoob> letting people use he/she/they is a huge step forward and i'm excited to see more games adopting it
13:09 <deadnoob> like for their character's pronoun
13:09 <K2> LarienTelrunya: you could lead the front on this for nethack based games
13:09 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) entered Gehennom, on T:9969
13:10 <K2> include a 'they' identifier
13:10 <LarienTelrunya> K2: huh, you mean with the different genders/sexes/whatnot? someone on 4chan already tried to bugger me into making 32 genders :P
13:10 <nooodle> but this is kind of getting at my original point, which is, if they had just made the player non-gendered from the very beginning (with, say, singular 'they' pronouns), it wouldn't have been an issue... they decided to try to include gender but then did it in a simplistic way.
13:10 <LarienTelrunya> for slex that is
13:11 <LarienTelrunya> but even if I were to make such a thing... how to make them actually different gameplay-wise without stepping on anyone's toes? or the alternative would be to have it just be cosmetic
13:11 -!- hothraxxa has joined #hardfought
13:11 <deadnoob> we need pansexual foocubi
13:11 <MiseryMyra> Just cosmetic is usually fine
13:11 <LarienTelrunya> also "flags.female" (which is a boolean) is used in so many places in the code and one would have to rewrite a ton of stuff
13:11 <K2> simplest appraoch i could think of is what i mentioned earlier in regards to foocubi
13:11 <nooodle> deadnoob: lol that was the original thing that kicked off this discussion
13:11 <deadnoob> i see ;p
13:12 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v hothraxxa] by ChanServ
13:12 <nooodle> i'm surprised to hear that it's used so many places in the code, i can really only think of a few places gender matters in gameplay. Laying eggs... foocubi... pronouns...
13:12 <MiseryMyra> Anyway, sorry to go all SJW on you all
13:12 <[Demo]> Yeah it hurts
13:13 <MiseryMyra> Except for you
13:13 <MiseryMyra> c:
13:13 <deadnoob> ^ mood myra
13:13 <nooodle> i'm glad they didn't do what Demon's Souls does and have different armor that can only be used by one gender, that's annoying af
13:13 <deadnoob> although SJW is just as meaningless as the word cuck nowadays
13:13 <LarienTelrunya> nooodle: I guess slex uses the flag more often, I'd have to grep vanilla's source to see how many of them there are
13:13 <raisse> peaceful pansexual foocubi should ignore you until you #chat to them (and hostile pansexual foocubi attack you regardless)
13:14 <K2> technically, the game referring to male/female as gender would be incorrect
13:14 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Mal Law) averted death, on T:10535
13:14 <MiseryMyra> I generally prefer when gender is a cosmetic thing in games
13:14 <nooodle> same, miserymyra
13:14 <stenno> is there any game where it's really not a cosmetic?
13:14 <MiseryMyra> Plenty
13:14 <stenno> apart from, well, nethack
13:15 <stenno> not the games that i have played then
13:15 <nooodle> ya, as mentioned, in demon's souls it locks you into either male armor or female armor (there are some unisex)
13:15 <MiseryMyra> "Men and women have different stats" is a fairly common thing
13:15 <stenno> oh i'd call that cosmetics
13:15 <raisse> but it can have real impact on gameplay
13:15 <nooodle> stenno, no no, they are totally different types of armor. Like there will be a robe set that gives pluses to spellcasting with no male equivalent
13:15 <stenno> wut
13:16 <deadnoob> ROFL
13:16 <stenno> oh yeah thats stupid then
13:16 <LarienTelrunya> isn't it so that in early D&D women would have their strength capped, which rubs even me the wrong way?
13:16 <deadnoob> that's dumb as heck
13:16 <MiseryMyra> Some RPGs have classes locked to specific genders
13:16 <LarienTelrunya> oh I have another one: the RPG Dungeon Lords has bras as armor, and only female chars can wear them. Male chars can pick them up but they just don't appear in the menu where you can select what you want to wear. So if a male char finds one, the only thing they can do with it is sell it.
13:17 <MiseryMyra> (Like NetHack!)
13:17 <deadnoob> nethack has bras?
13:17 <nooodle> nethack has valkyries
13:17 <PavelB> > Some RPGs have classes locked to specific genders
13:17 <PavelB> > (Like NetHack!)
13:17 <LarienTelrunya> there was someone who used "edible bra" as their fruit name :D
13:17 <nooodle> but... at least in nethack, your gender *barely* matters and amulets of change are common
13:17 <raisse> valkyries don't need bras, their boobs aren't subject to gravity
13:17 <hothraxxa> male valkyries too. i assume they keep the breastplate after the change
13:17 <K2> ^ that
13:18 <nooodle> when i play a valkyrie i usually try to find an amulet of change, just to queer it up
13:18 <PavelB> Valyries don't start with armor though
13:18 <MiseryMyra> I've even played RPGs where the classes were completely segregated by gender
13:18 <PavelB> They're stuck with whatever they find lying around
13:18 <deadnoob> in many other rpgs the player character is usually seen as an extension of the player, in nethack the pc is more of an instrument of the character
13:18 <LarienTelrunya> YANI: circus artist class. Can tame lions, do daring jumps over "bottomless" pits, and catch hostile arrows and crossbow bolts with their bare hands.
13:19 <MiseryMyra> Women can't be knights, men can't be clerics, etc.
13:19 <raisse> men can't be clerics?!
13:19 <hothraxxa> you see here a +9 brass codpiece of great strength and excessive bravery
13:19 <PavelB> In early Final Fantasy games (IDK about later ones) white mages were female, red mages were male, etc., but that was because there was only one sprite for each class
13:19 <raisse> I mean I kind of get (though I don't agree with) "women can't be knights" but cleric is a sort of gender neutral role for me
13:19 <MiseryMyra> In some of the games I've played, yeah
13:20 <LarienTelrunya> Diablo 2 has maiden pikes and matriarchal javelins that only the female amazon can equip, no one else can :D
13:20 <raisse> ooh a matriarchal javelin
13:20 <raisse> I have three grown-up daughters, can I have one?
13:20 <MiseryMyra> Ogre Battle 64 is the most recent one I've played that has complete class segregation by gender
13:20 <stenno> in the pen&paper rpg i played it was made very clear in the introduction that any gender can play any role without getting different stats or w/e and if you don't think so you shouldn't play this game and also you should probably fuck off from the fantasy genre
13:20 <nooodle> i thought i remembered diablo 2, thank you for confirming that. trying to mentally go through all the games i've played where the straights have cocked it up with their straight propaganda (joking)
13:20 <stenno> s/0layed/play/
13:21 * LarienTelrunya starts grinding act 5 hell to procure such a javelin for raisse :)
13:21 <stenno> LarienTelrunya: those are role-specific weapons, not gender-specific weapons
13:21 <MiseryMyra> And, yeah, Diablo 1 and 2 have specific characters for each class, which means they're gender segregated
13:21 <raisse> stenno: that's a sensible game
13:22 <stenno> DSA ftw
13:22 <MiseryMyra> You can't be a female paladin or a male rogue
13:22 <raisse> our homebrew has 1 paragraph saying something like that too
13:22 <LarienTelrunya> Torchlight also has fixed genders: two of the roles (fighter and wizard) are male, the third (archer) is female
13:22 <deadnoob> torchlight2 does not have that, however!
13:22 <raisse> (also we've had trans and intersex PCs and NPCs)
13:22 <stenno> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye
13:22 <PavelB> I love TDE!
13:22 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Lord Surtur, on T:14139
13:22 <raisse> I know someone who taught himself German from that because it hadn't been translated into Dutch when he wanted to GM it
13:22 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:14140
13:23 <PavelB> I picked up the core rulebook last week and have been trying to convince all my friends to play with me
13:23 <nooodle> i feel like morrowind had some gendered gameplay things... can't recall...
13:23 <stenno> nice
13:23 <LarienTelrunya> at least the elder scrolls and fallout games allow you to freely pick your gender, although it's annoying that some fallout 3 clothing items look completely different when equipped by the other gender
13:23 <raisse> (and taught himself English from D&D but that's more usual)
13:23 <raisse> like robes that suddenly develop a cleavage?
13:23 <raisse> if you have boobs to cause a cleavage
13:23 <stenno> i also play minecraft
13:23 <LarienTelrunya> IIRC some pre-war FO3 outfit looks like a gray business suit on a male character and becomes a green skirt on a female
13:24 <stenno> where you are literally just a blob
13:24 <MiseryMyra> I'm okay with some gender differences in games if they narratively make sense, though
13:24 <raisse> I played something that had adjustments for pregnant PCs
13:24 <LarienTelrunya> raisse: yes, in FO3 you can even reverse-pickpocket those outfits onto little girls, and then they suddenly develop breasts!
13:24 <PavelB> TDE core rules do mention gender, in the context of the setting, e.g. this part of the world has a matriarchal society and this part of the world women can't own property 
13:24 <PavelB> But in most locations it doesn't matter
13:24 <MiseryMyra> Men and women generally aren't treated identically in society, and it's okay for games to reflect that sometimes
13:25 <raisse> temporarily more acute senses but less speed
13:25 <MiseryMyra> It can be kind of a bummer to be oppressed in your fantasy world, though
13:26 <nooodle> miserymyra 100% yes ^^^
13:26 <PavelB> Well the cool thing about fantasy worlds is you can burn them to the ground if you want ;)
13:26 <stenno> not so easy in a P&P rpg
13:26 <LarienTelrunya> EPI: if you alchemize a bunch of potions while already having 52 distinct items in inventory and only some of them do get alchemized, whichever potion would occupy slot 53 will fall to the ground and break, exposing you to its fumes.
13:29 <PavelB> stenno: What are you talking about, in a P&P rpg oyu can burn the world with *actual IRL fire*, it's even better
13:30 <stenno> no like, if the local count or w/e comes and molests you, you cannot just kill the count
13:30 <stenno> well you can but then your whole group will probably be annihilated
13:31 <stenno> it more depends on if your GM is sexist in that way though, i guess
13:31 <MiseryMyra> I wouldn't be pleased if my DM fantasy molested my character
13:31 <deadnoob> there's other ways to make the pcs hate an npc
13:31 <PavelB> running away from civilization after collosally fucking up and breaking every law on earth is a core part of the D&D experience
13:32 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Juiblex, on T:15195
13:32 <MiseryMyra> That would be grounds for me dropping out of the campaign
13:32 <deadnoob> i once showed the bullywugs that took over the town disciplining the children as soldiers and to my pcs that was crossing the line. it's super easy for a GM to make pcs feel feeligns about npcs than inflicting trauma on them
13:32 <deadnoob> just have the npc to bad things to other npcs
13:33 <deadnoob> (crossing the line as in the npc they were allies with is now someone they want to kill and drive out of town)
13:33 -!- introsp3ctive has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
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13:34 <stenno> sure that are rules that have to be established before you even start playing
13:34 <deadnoob> ^^^^
13:35 <[Demo]> bluepill me daddy
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13:38 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) averted death, on T:15655
13:38 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) destroyed the invisible Vlad the Impaler, on T:15656
13:38 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:15657
13:39 <Pinkbeast> reverse-pickpocket> reminds me of Lait telling me about early cRPGs where you could pickpocket cows to get steaks
13:39 <stenno> lol
13:40 <[Demo]> that sounds fun
13:41 <PavelB> That needs to be a thing again
13:42 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:17334
13:43 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) polymorphed her first object, on T:17480
13:45 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) genocided class ;, on T:17533
13:45 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) genocided class R, on T:17534
13:46 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "uncursed fixed greased magic marker", on T:17626
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13:52 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:18897
13:52 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:18903
13:52 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) performed the invocation, on T:18952
13:55 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the high priestess of Moloch, on T:19103
13:55 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:19107
13:56 <stenno> livelogging ammy of yendor is vaguely exploitable
13:56 <stenno> as you know that its the real one
13:57 <PavelB> Same with luckstone in minds
13:57 <PavelB> *mines
13:57 <stenno> stahp~ uh uhh
13:57 <stenno> where is my mines
13:57 <LarienTelrunya> lol I read "Amy of Yendor" :P
13:58 <PavelB> Same
13:58 <stenno> you wish lol
13:58 <stenno> sounds pretty cool though tbh
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13:59 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:19856
14:00 <LarienTelrunya> change the plot so that the macguffin is no longer an amulet but a damsel in distress named Amy, whom you have to free from some evil villain :D
14:00 <stenno> and then carry all the way to the planes?
14:00 <LarienTelrunya> nah, escort! a literal escort mission from hell because the ascension run starts in Gehennom after all :D
14:00 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:20169
14:00 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Orcus, on T:20184
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14:02 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] Luxidream (Val Dwa Fem Law), 443736 points, T:20246, killed by a shade (with the Amulet)
14:02 <stenno> at least pet (for a lack of a better word, unfortunately) following is implemented sanily now
14:02 <stenno> oho rip
14:02 <rld> <@luxidream> it was slow
14:02 <stenno> !lastgame luxidream
14:02 <Beholder> stenno: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/L/Luxidream/nh361/dumplog/1534263997.nh361.txt | [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/L/Luxidream/dnethack/dumplog/1530400922.dnh.txt
14:03 <rld> <@luxidream> I was at 1:35
14:03 <rld> <@luxidream> dumb shades took me down from max HP to 2
14:04 <rld> <@luxidream> then I polyselfed and tried to get away
14:04 <rld> <@luxidream> but still ended up dying
14:04 <MiseryMyra> <stenno> livelogging ammy of yendor is vaguely exploitable
14:05 <rld> <@luxidream> just put it in your bag
14:05 <MiseryMyra> To be fair, there's usually no doubt about which one is the right one when you first pick it up
14:05 <rld> <@luxidream> livelogging luckstone is the most exploitable
14:05 <rld> <@IceBox> ^^
14:06 <rld> <@luxidream> also thanks for the follow stenno
14:06 <rld> <@luxidream> do you stream too?
14:07 <stenno> no my djerman excent is two terribel
14:07 <rld> <@luxidream> or at some point
14:07 <stenno> i streamed 5 minutes for a private audience of nethackers once
14:07 <stenno> just to try it out
14:07 <stenno> also i see you are a fan of yume nikki
14:08 <aosdict> wow this discussion certainly went places while I was away
14:08 <rld> <@luxidream> I am. one of my favorite games
14:09 <stenno> played it shortly but couldn't really get into it tbh
14:09 <stenno> same with undertale... i mean its really good but its not like the most mindblowing stuff ever
14:10 <rld> <@luxidream> I don't really enjoy the gameplay. but I really like the concept.
14:10 <rld> <@luxidream> there isn't anything like it except idk
14:10 <stenno> fair
14:10 <rld> <@luxidream> LSD: Dream Emulator?
14:11 <stenno> yeah
14:13 <stenno> man i can't wait to dublin
14:13 <stenno> i wanna eat english breakfast
14:13 <stenno> like you get a plate with all this stuff on it
14:14 <stenno> its my idea of an ideal dish
14:14 <stenno> just a giant plate with all the stuff on it
14:17 <stenno> https://144f2a3a2f948f23fc61-ca525f0a2beaec3e91ca498facd51f15.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/uploads/food_portal_data/recipes/recipe/hero_article_image/1305/letterbox_resizeimage593x426xA6SozL86Xx.jpg
14:18 <MiseryMyra> Yume Nikki is one of my favorites too
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14:21 <MiseryMyra> There are a lot of games that have been inspired by Yume Nikki since its creation, but they're generally kind of obscure
14:22 <rld> <@IceBox> just checked it out on steam, is it largely an exploration game?
14:22 <rld> <@IceBox> someone said it looks like undertale above i think, and that was my first though ttoo
14:23 <rld> <@IceBox> too*
14:23 <rld> <@luxidream> it's far older than undertale
14:23 <rld> <@IceBox> oh just re-released on steam?
14:23 <MiseryMyra> Yeah. There's a "goal," but it's mostly just a big space for you to explore
14:23 <rld> <@luxidream> it was one of the first horror games on RPG maker IIRC
14:24 <rld> <@luxidream> made in 2004
14:25 <rld> <@luxidream> MiseryMyra: what other games do you mean? I don't really count direct fangames, and I don't know how good those are either
14:26 <MiseryMyra> Some of the direct fangames are pretty good. I like Yume Graffiti, personally
14:26 <MiseryMyra> .flow is also pretty popular, but it's not really my thing
14:27 <rld> <@luxidream> yeah, .flow is really gritty
14:27 <rld> <@luxidream> I actually liked 2kki the most
14:27 <rld> <@luxidream> all kinds of stuff there
14:28 <MiseryMyra> There are also games like Neftelia and Neftelia 2, which aren't really fangames, but they're also made with RPG maker and take a lot of inspiration from Yume Nikki
14:28 <rld> <@luxidream> haven't heard of that
14:28 <MiseryMyra> I don't like 2kki personally. It felt more like a mishmash than anything
14:29 <rld> <@luxidream> I guess that can't be avoided when you have so many people working on something
14:29 <MiseryMyra> Yeah, I think it's a "too many cooks" thing
14:29 <MiseryMyra> The other games seem deeply personal in ways that a collaboration really can't be
14:30 <rld> <@luxidream> did you play LCDDEM?
14:30 <MiseryMyra> I've played some of it
14:31 <MiseryMyra> Not enough to have a strong opinion on it
14:31 <rld> <@luxidream> the music is really good imo
14:33 <rld> <@luxidream> I just want a modern game in the same spirit. I followed dream on steam while it was being developed, and was excited about it, but it turned out to be shit
14:34 <MiseryMyra> They made a modern interpretation of Yume Nikki recently. It's okay, but it's a lot more "video gamey"
14:35 <rld> <@luxidream> dream diary?
14:35 <MiseryMyra> Yeah
14:35 <rld> <@luxidream> yeah, it's a unity platformer
14:35 <MiseryMyra> A lot of so-called walking simulators take inspiration from Yume Nikki
14:36 <rld> <@luxidream> I guess they were trying to ride off the popularity of stuff like Little Nightmares? but it doesn't really work here
14:36 <MiseryMyra> There's this game called Anodyne that has a lot of Yume Nikki flavor to it, but it plays like an old Zelda game
14:37 <rld> <@luxidream> this looks interesting
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14:38 <MiseryMyra> But, yeah, Neftelia and its sequel are the games I'd recommend if you'd like to play a game like Yume Nikki that isn't strictly a fangame
14:41 <rld> <@luxidream> awesome! I will give it a shot
14:43 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] samiam (Sam Hum Mal Law) had Werebane bestowed upon him by Amaterasu Omikami, on T:75379
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15:06 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] terrapin (Pir Inf Mal Cha), 127 points, T:434, killed by a sewer rat
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15:07 <PavelB> Is there like a thing you can enable to disable automatic fighting with movement keys
15:07 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 1639 points, T:1781, killed by a gnome, while frozen by a monster's gaze
15:08 <rld> <@luxidream> press m before you move
15:08 <rld> <@luxidream> alternatively, play an NH4 variant
15:08 <rld> <@luxidream> and use pacifist move option
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15:09 <PavelB> (aosdict please add to xnh)
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15:10 <rld> <@luxidream> why are you playing pacifist though
15:11 <PavelB> Not pacific
15:11 <PavelB> Hallucinating
15:11 <PavelB> And don't want to kill my pet
15:11 <rld> <@luxidream> also stop fountain quaffing
15:11 <aosdict> PavelB: doesn't forcefight exist for this
15:11 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [xnh] PavelB (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1499 points, T:3391, killed by a water demon
15:11 <PavelB> GOD DAMMIT WHY CAN'T A GENOCIDE WATER DEMONS
15:11 <aosdict> be careful you don't turn into DogeKip
15:11 <PavelB> aosdict: I don't know, that's why I asked
15:12 <rld> <@luxidream> dogekip?
15:12 <PavelB> For the record, I was dipping for excalibur
15:12 <rld> <@luxidream> !lastgame dogekip
15:12 <Beholder> @luxidream: No last game for dogekip.
15:12 <PavelB> Not fountain quaffing
15:12 <aosdict> guy in #nethack who got himself banned for YELLING ABOUT HIS DEATH IN ALL CAPS every time he died
15:12 <[Demo]> lol
15:12 <rld> <@IceBox> we all know you took a sip, or wanted to
15:13 <rld> <@IceBox> PavelB^^
15:13 <rld> <@IceBox> you have an addiction, the first step is admitting it
15:13 <PavelB> I'm not saying I didn't want to
15:13 <rld> <@DogeKip> GOD DAMN SHADES FUCK
15:13 <aosdict> fountain scumming. it's a more encompassing term than quaffing
15:13 <PavelB> aosdict: Is forcefight an xnh thing? It doesn't seem to be a vanilla option
15:13 <rld> <@Luxidream> forcefight is F
15:14 <PavelB> oic
15:14 <PavelB> I need the opposite of that
15:14 <aosdict> uh it might be a 3.4.3 option that in 3.6 got folded into paranoid hit
15:14 <rld> <@Luxidream> m
15:14 <rld> <@Luxidream> move only
15:15 <PavelB> aosdict: According to the wiki that's just the paranoid confirmation
15:15 <rld> <@Luxidream> I don't think anything will stop you for
15:15 <rld> <@Luxidream> *from
15:16 <rld> <@Luxidream> hitting all monsters while hallucinating
15:16 <rld> <@Luxidream> they all appear hostile
15:16 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Neu) had Cleaver bestowed upon him by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:2810
15:18 <PavelB> I engrave tested with a wand and I got "The engraving now reads: "They say that a ma??s wcn'? min?c word? with vou."?
15:18 <stenno> polymorph
15:18 <PavelB> Thanks
15:19 <MiseryMyra> They say that *incoherent mumbling*
15:23 <stenno> They say that a manes won't mince words with you.
15:23 <stenno> is the original
15:23 <stenno> whatever that is supposed to mean
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15:29 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Neu) hit with a wielded weapon for the first time, on T:4947
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15:33 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Neu) had Giantslayer bestowed upon him by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:5705
15:34 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [xnh] PavelB (Val Dwa Fem Law), 591 points, T:1489, killed by a giant bat, while frozen by a monster's gaze
15:35 <rld> <@Tone> That means manes will quite bluntly tell you what they think of you
15:36 <rld> <@Tone> ie their demon insults
15:37 <rld> <@Luxidream> manes have demon insults?
15:37 <rld> <@Tone> Actually they don't do they
15:37 <rld> <@Tone> The other red i do
15:37 <rld> <@Luxidream> imps
15:37 <stenno> its a false rumor anyway
15:38 <rld> <@Tone> Must be a false rumor
15:38 <rld> <@Tone> Yeah
15:38 <rld> <@Luxidream> they can grow up into lemures
15:38 <rld> <@Luxidream> this breaks dnd canon in a lot of ways
15:40 <rld> <@Luxidream> btw @Tone, did you decide not to post your steam review?
15:40 <rld> <@Luxidream> I kinda wanted to read it
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15:40 <rld> <@Dracunos> And do it in rhyming prose
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15:41 <rld> <@Tone> I haven't had time, been working a lot
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15:44 -!- Luxidream2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:45 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:50367
15:45 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:50379
15:46 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) performed the invocation, on T:50414
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15:47 <[Demo]> I think I'm gonna rewrite this shit bot
15:50 <NeroOneTrueKing> which bot?
15:54 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Neu) made his first wish - "blessed rustproof +2 grayswandir", on T:8003
15:54 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [xnh] PavelB (Val Dwa Fem Law), 270 points, T:933, killed by a wand
15:54 <PavelB> I accidentally zapped a wand of cancellation
15:54 <PavelB> In a bookstore
15:55 <[Demo]> me
15:55 <MiseryMyra> rip
15:55 <bhaak> that sounds like you either are dead or have a lot of time to finally write that novel you always wanted to write
15:55 <hothraxxa> ok there's more to that story
15:57 <[Demo]> like my irc client
15:58 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the high priestess of Moloch, on T:50831
15:58 <[Demo]> right a novel and sell it to shk
15:58 <[Demo]> for your freedom
15:58 <PavelB> What about your irc client?
15:58 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:50839
16:02 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming an orc shaman, on T:9022
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16:03 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] dgoddard (Mon Hum Mal Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:9155
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16:07 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:51148
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16:08 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:51361
16:10 <aosdict> @Luxidream manes can grow up into lemures? wat
16:14 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) wished for "a blessed greased fixed ring of levitation", on T:51838
16:14 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) wished for "blessed historic fixed unlit magic harp named camille & kennerly", on T:47930
16:16 <PavelB> Can you wish for "a scroll labled READ ME"?
16:16 <rld> <@Tone> aosdict Yep. Although I've never seen it happen
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16:19 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:52413
16:21 <aosdict> PavelB: Yes, but if that label doesn't happen to exist, you get a random scroll
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16:27 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) entered the Planes, on T:52644
16:27 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:52645
16:33 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:52853
16:41 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Famine, on T:53059
16:43 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] terrapin (Sam Ang Fem Law) changed form for the first time by mimicing a pile of gold, on T:4897
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16:45 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the high priestess of Shan Lai Ching, on T:53122
16:47 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Famine, on T:53154
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16:51 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Death, on T:53274
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16:52 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed Death, on T:53290
16:53 <stenno> lol
16:54 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha), 3302238 points, T:53317, ascended
https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/h/hypnotist/nh361/dumplog/1534157762.nh361.txt
16:54 <PavelB> > slex
16:54 <stenno> grats nooodle 
16:54 <PavelB> congrats, nooodle 
16:54 <stenno> still rocking that streak?
16:55 <[Demo]> slam em
16:55 <PavelB> !streak hypnotist
16:55 <Beholder> PavelB: [hdf-us] hypnotist Max[nh361]: 10 (2018-07-16 - 2018-08-14)(current).
16:55 <[Demo]> gt srn
17:00 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] samiam (Sam Hum Mal Law) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:79658
17:00 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] samiam (Sam Hum Mal Law) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:79660
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17:03 <rld> <@Tone> 'grats nooodle
17:05 <stenno> hardfought, where the pro kids hang out
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17:06 <[Demo]> theres definitely a good follow up joke to make there but i dont know what it is
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17:10 <stenno> ah well, bedtime
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17:21 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] terrapin (Sam Ang Fem Law) made her first wish - "blessed fixed +3 gray dragon scale mail", on T:6732
17:28 <aosdict> Hmm, the game has very specific flavoring for hiding under objects. You're always hiding under only the topmost object, whatever that is, and you're on top of everything else.
17:29 <[Demo]> hide under grass~
17:29 <aosdict> So if I as a cave spider go hide under the giant pile of Ludios loot, I'm actually hiding only under the boot at the very top of the pile.
17:29 <[Demo]> yeah that is weird
17:30 <aosdict> the flavoring for "hiding under the [feature]" gets a little weird when it's grass, but I can live with it.
17:30 <aosdict> you would normally say hiding *in* the grass, but imo not worth a special case.
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17:37 <jonadab> aosdict: DDTTOE.
17:37 <jonadab> i.e., I think in NetHack such things usually do get a special case.
17:37 <aosdict> Da Devteam Thinks Of Everything?
17:38 <jonadab> Yes.  This is why NetHack is made out of a big pile of special cases and exceptions to the special cases, held together with chewing gum and bailing twine.
17:38 <aosdict> jonadab: since I'm throwing in other terrain types, there are like five different places where you *ought* to vary the language but is "monster hiding under the grave" really going to bother anyone that much?
17:39 <aosdict> jonadab: I was poking fun at the D you used
17:39 <jonadab> Ah.
17:39 <jonadab> TDTTOE then.
17:39 <jonadab> Right.
17:40 <Pinkbeast> aosdict: Makes sense. If you hid under the entire pile, you couldn't leap out and bite someone looking at the boot
17:40 <aosdict> well in the unlikely case that the devteam contacts me and says "hey we want this feature but you gotta make it use totally natural grammar" then I'd be happy to oblige, but for now laziness is the rule
17:42 <aosdict> :O
17:43 <[Demo]> got him
17:43 <[Demo]> go team demo
17:52 <rld> <@rikersan> wow first demo death I've seen here
17:52 <rld> <@rikersan> !lastgame PeterQ
17:52 <Beholder> @rikersan: [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/P/PeterQ/dnethack/dumplog/1533984918.dnh.txt
17:57 <[Demo]> free action works on that vomit now btw
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18:12 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] terrapin (Sam Ang Fem Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:9191
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18:33 <AntiGulp> [backscroll] wait I missed a conversation on gender AND Yume Nikki??? I can’t believe this
18:33 <Beholder> AntiGulp: Messages from @luxidream and hothraxxa have been forwarded to you privately.
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18:38 <AntiGulp> I love talking about both those things
18:38 <AntiGulp> !tell Luxidream I really like this YANI, and I’ll fix the marathon mode bug.
18:38 <Beholder> Will do, AntiGulp!
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18:48 <rld> <@Luxidream> how come the silver key wouldn't let him branchport?
18:48 <Beholder> @Luxidream: Message from AntiGulp at 2018-08-14 18:38 EDT: I really like this YANI, and I’ll fix the marathon mode bug.
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19:01 <aosdict> AntiGulp: Though you missed the discussion, what are your thoughts on the main gameplay topics discussed: a third (or more perhaps) gender option, foocubi seducing regardless of what gender you are, the ability for your character to be non-straight?
19:06 <rld> <@Luxidream> YASI: asexual. you are immune to foocubi and nymphs, but ants gain a seduction attack against you
19:06 <rld> <@Luxidream> probably unplayable
19:06 <PavelB> Why would ants get a seduction attack against you
19:06 <rld> <@Luxidream> (a) sexual
19:07 <PavelB> ._.
19:07 <PavelB> ಠ_ಠ
19:07 <aosdict> asexuality could be interesting...
19:07 <aosdict> you are immune to seduction but that also means you can't get any benefits from it
19:07 <AntiGulp> I think that at the very least a nonbinary option would be great. I’ve actually tried adding it several times, but the way that adding a gender interacts with pronoun code gets kinda funky, and having the game accidentally refer to the player as “it” would be (needless to say) real bad. I know my solution to pretty much everything is “throw stuff in the nethackrc,” but in this case I think it could actually work well. Have a
19:07 <AntiGulp> third option that allows the player to use an identity and set of pronouns defined in the config file. Sexuality gets more complicated, since it has a larger gameplay impact. There’s a good google post somewhere that discusses it in nethack.
19:08 <PavelB> aosdict: If I could be immune to nymphs I would enable that feature in an instant
19:08 <rld> <@Luxidream> I think it would be optimal to be asexual, given the option
19:08 <rld> <@Luxidream> if it has no other drawbacks than not being able to use foocubi
19:08 <rld> <@rikersan> not always
19:08 <aosdict> of course, the more alternate genders or sexualities you add, the weirder the amulet of change and its effects get
19:08 <rld> <@rikersan> if you're like a tourist
19:08 <MiseryMyra> Something about a song about having sex with bees
19:08 <rld> <@rikersan> or a knight with high int/con it's worth it (cuz you can get positive effects)
19:09 <rld> <@Luxidream> yeah but being asexual means you basically genocide nymphs right?
19:09 <rld> <@rikersan> oh true
19:09 <aosdict> oooorrrr... nymph charming could be flavored as not based on sexual attraction and just magical beauty
19:09 <MiseryMyra> AntiGulp: I'm always down for a good gender & Yume Nikki talk
19:10 <MiseryMyra> And, yeah, I generally assumed nymphs stealing things isn't inherently a sexual thing
19:10 <aosdict> s/magical beauty/magical charming/
19:10 <PavelB> There needs to be a way to defend against nymphs
19:10 <AntiGulp> yesss
19:10 <AntiGulp> I’ve also always assumed Nymph theft is nonsexual
19:10 <aosdict> YANI: amulet versus theft.
19:10 <PavelB> pls
19:10 <AntiGulp> ^ I would wish for it...
19:10 <PavelB> anything
19:11 <aosdict> it would be a very weak amulet late game
19:11 <aosdict> compared to reflection or life saving
19:11 <aosdict> clearly we need to make stealing be more of a threat in the late game >:)
19:11 <MiseryMyra> There's a minor change in the text involved with nymph theft versus men and women, but it otherwise works the same
19:11 <PavelB> don't care
19:12 <PavelB> I need it
19:13 <aosdict> The belt-slot proposal also included a belt that protected versus theft, but adding a new slot has a lot more work that needs to be done.
19:13 <PavelB> "oLS is nice and all but not if it *gets stolen by a nymph*
19:14 <AntiGulp> YASI: Belt of belting. It gives you a bonus to unarmed attacks.
19:14 <MiseryMyra> Have a chastity belt that protects against foocubi seduction
19:15 <PavelB> aosdict: But hey, if you do that, you can put belts on `;` 
19:17 <aosdict> well they would probably not deserve their own entire object class
19:17 <aosdict> they'd either be ( or [
19:17 <aosdict> [ would be easier but also make them enchantable
19:17 <AntiGulp> We could use the blindfold code! (flashbacks to how nasty the blindfold code is)
19:19 <aosdict> blindfolds do only _one_ thing. adding a belt slot would add things with several effects >:)
19:19 <PavelB> Just make the blindfold code worse
19:19 <MiseryMyra> Ah, I see there have been a number of changes to xNetHack since I last played
19:20 <MiseryMyra> I may give it another try at some point
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19:20 <MiseryMyra> rip zruties
19:21 <AntiGulp> what happened to zruties???
19:22 <MiseryMyra> They're donezo. Gone the way of the dodo. Wiped out
19:22 <MiseryMyra> Sea monsters took their spot on z
19:22 <AntiGulp> :’(
19:23 <AntiGulp> I guess they didn’t have any special abilities or anything, to be fair.
19:23 <MiseryMyra> I would have personally put them on Y or something, but, yeah, they're not super important
19:25 <PavelB> Also monk and bar quests reworked, don't think the wiki mentions that
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19:25 <MiseryMyra> I appreciate their particular quaintness of being an unremarkable monster with mostly unknown characteristics having a class all to themselves, but I get why they'd be removed
19:31 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) wished for "holy historic diluted partly eaten chickatrice corpse named jack herer", on T:48640
19:32 <aosdict> MiseryMyra: I guess variant devs get access to the super secret scroll of ultragenocide. Which not only removes monsters from a game but from ALL games. Forever.
19:32 <MiseryMyra> rip
19:33 <aosdict> if you want you can go pour out a potion of booze in game
19:34 <[Demo]> rip zruty
19:37 <AntiGulp> Question: Is there an easier way to modify the default tileset than by text editor? I have a long term goal of making splice tiles-compatible, and I’m halfway decent at pixel art but don’t want to do it all in notepad.
19:38 <aosdict> AntiGulp: ask jonadab. He has a perl based tiletool.
19:39 <AntiGulp> aosdict: Thanks, will do!
19:40 <aosdict> it prints out the current state of the tile every time. not ncurses based but close.
19:42 <aosdict> hmm, I'm not seeing it on jonadab's site or in any of his repos...
19:43 <aosdict> ah, found fourk's: https://github.com/tsadok/nhfourk/blob/master/tilesets/util/tiletool.pl
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19:46 <rld> <@Luxidream> if I ascend a zruty in polyinit mode
19:46 <rld> <@Luxidream> will it get livelogged
19:46 <[Demo]> good question
19:47 <[Demo]> we need a zruty tribute run
19:47 <rld> <@Luxidream> he may not be in xnh anymore
19:47 <rld> <@Luxidream> but he will be in the demigod bar with everyone else
19:48 <hothraxxa> Luxidream2: it will not
19:48 <AntiGulp> aosdict: I’m not terribly familiar with perl, but glancing through am I right that this takes in an image and ouputs a .txt file?
19:48 <hothraxxa> i ascended as a woodchuck during junethack. it didn't even show up in the dumplog
19:49 <rld> <@Luxidream> no I mean polyinit
19:49 <rld> <@Luxidream> starting the game as a zruty
19:49 <hothraxxa> oh polyinit. might be different but i doubt it
19:49 <rld> <@Luxidream> in nethack4
19:49 <aosdict> hothraxxa: it didn't even show up as "Hothraxxa the Woodchuck"?
19:49 <hothraxxa> nope
19:49 <aosdict> sounds like a bug
19:49 <rld> <@Luxidream> I tried ascending a woodchuck once. I played wizard
19:49 <rld> <@Luxidream> he was stressed just wearing the starting cloak of magic resistance
19:49 <rld> <@Luxidream> I gave up
19:49 <aosdict> like you unpoly before the dumplog is output or something
19:52 <hothraxxa> Luxidream2: i polyed while on the altar and was overtaxed but you can still offer the amulet. 
19:52 <hothraxxa> when i did, i automatically dropped a lot of stuff and that obliterated the line in the dumplog that indicated i was now a woodchuck
19:54 <aosdict> AntiGulp: assuming the tiletool I have is unedited... what I do is navigate to win/share where the tile files are, then do perl /path/to/tiletool.pl show 243
19:54 <aosdict> replace show with edit, replace 243 with whatever tile number...
19:55 <aosdict> oh and at some point I hardcoded $tilefile to "objects.txt"
19:55 <AntiGulp> aosdict: Gotcha, thank you. I’m going to have some fun with this.
19:56 <aosdict> fun fact: tile 231, leather drum, opens right off with "POOOOP" and continues on to say such things as "LOOOOOOOOL"
19:59 <aosdict> oh and also when I first tried to run it I ran into a lot of problems with perl libraries but it eventually all got installed and fixed. YMMV.
20:00 <AntiGulp> LOL everytime I think I’ve seen all there is in the nethack source code, there’s always more
20:03 <rld> <@Luxidream> bunch of things you never see in game
20:03 <rld> <@Luxidream> there's a message for trying to blow a tin whistle underwater
20:04 <rld> <@Luxidream> like what
20:05 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:49133
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20:07 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:49149
20:10 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) woke the rulers of Gehennom by performing the invocation, on T:49162
20:11 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:49170
20:11 <AntiGulp> Just today I found a commented-out quote from Terry Pratchett in data.base. A lengthy comment explained that they thought the mood it portrayed conflicted with the currently used quote.
20:15 <rld> <@Luxidream> can you write a novel with a magic marker in 3.6.1?
20:18 <aosdict> only if you play the Pratchett role
20:18 <rld> <@Luxidream> I assume that role can only gain EXP from reading novels?
20:19 <rld> <@Luxidream> and writing them of course
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20:36 <aosdict> AntiGulp turns into a bouncy ball!
20:36 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Fem Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:49531
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21:00 <ais523> @messages?
21:01 <ais523> err, wrong bot trigger, but Beholder will give messages on anything :-P
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21:15 <ais523> !tell AntiGulp re: tiles design, NH4 comes with a program "tilecompile" that converts between various tile formats (including text and .png); I think it's currently tied to NH4's monster list but it's probably fairly easy to compile it against a different variant to tie it to its monster list instead
21:15 <Beholder> Will do, ais523!
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21:15 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [spl] terrapin (Sam Ang Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:16297
21:16 <aosdict> tiletool appears to be quite agnostic though
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21:33 <rld> <@Luxidream> !tell ais523 nethack4 bug: if you are polyselfed into a form with more than one attack and melee a floating eye, your other attacks go through anyway
21:33 <Beholder> Will do, @Luxidream!
21:38 <[Demo]> yey cool bug
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22:18 <[Demo]> what if when wielding a wand i could use f to zap it?
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22:38 <rld> <@Luxidream> https://i.imgur.com/uSK94ss.png
22:38 <rld> <@Luxidream> phase one of operation zruty is complete
22:39 <rld> <@Tone> haha
22:39 <[Demo]> oh wow
22:39 <[Demo]> zruty can wield stuff?
22:39 <rld> <@Luxidream> yeah. they have claw
22:39 <[Demo]> wow
22:40 <rld> <@Luxidream> biggest problem is healing. you're stuck with 1 hp per 20 turns I think
22:40 <[Demo]> damn
22:40 <rld> <@Tone> wait, can you depoly?
22:40 <[Demo]> can you get a regen ring?
22:40 <rld> <@Luxidream> I did, right before castle
22:40 <rld> <@Tone> and yeah regen sucks for polyforms
22:40 <rld> <@Tone> You pretty much have to use a regen ring
22:40 <rld> <@Luxidream> I have permanent intrinsic unchanging
22:40 <rld> <@Tone> if you are also going with unchanging that is
22:40 <rld> <@Luxidream> if I die, it's over
22:40 <rld> <@Tone> ah okay
22:40 <aosdict> !whereis luxidream
22:40 <Beholder> aosdict: [hdf-us] Luxidream [nh4]: No details available
22:41 <rld> <@Tone> That's a NH4 game option?
22:41 <rld> <@Luxidream> polyinit is in NH4
22:41 <rld> <@Luxidream> you can play as any monster
22:41 <aosdict> didn't know polyinit came with permanent intrinsic unchanging
22:41 <rld> <@Tone> interesting
22:41 <rld> <@Tone> What are you going to use for MR?
22:41 <rld> <@Luxidream> eota
22:41 <aosdict> stupid nethack4 stealing my ideas before I even come up with them
22:42 <aosdict> :P
22:42 <rld> <@Luxidream> or credit card
22:42 <rld> <@Luxidream> probably credit card
22:42 <rld> <@Tone> Will you use a shield for reflection?
22:42 <rld> <@Luxidream> I am neutral valk under the hood
22:42 <rld> <@Luxidream> already got it
22:42 <rld> <@Tone> ah
22:42 <rld> <@Luxidream> I can't get any protection. zruties can't talk
22:42 <rld> <@Tone> borrowed from Perseus? 😄
22:43 <rld> <@Luxidream> yeah
22:43 <rld> <@Tone> interesting consequence of polyinit is that you are immune to polytraps
22:43 <rld> <@Tone> I assume, at least
22:43 <rld> <@Luxidream> yeah, that didn't come into play though
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22:44 <rld> <@Luxidream> I think zruties are half player speed. this would not have been fun without getting speed at 7
22:50 <aosdict> Polyinit games aren't counted on scoreboards, right? (I mean, the actual difficulty of the game depends on what you are, but still.)
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22:53 <rld> <@Luxidream> they don't count
22:53 <rld> <@Luxidream> hopefully I get a dumplog though
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22:53 <aosdict> a polyinit newt game would be much harder than a regular game
22:53 <[Demo]> add zruty to xnh lol
22:55 <rld> <@Luxidream> if I ascend would you consider it
22:59 <aosdict> also interested to know how polyinit affects stuff that would be affected only by your base race.
22:59 <aosdict> last I checked, demo does not have commit access to xnethack
23:00 <[Demo]> no i do github gave it to me because they agree that zruty should return cause they miss it
23:00 <aosdict> like, if you're a polyinitted Green-elf gnomish healer, can you still use uncursed touchstones as if they were blessed?
23:00 <[Demo]> honestly you shouldnt have said anything, that would have been funnier
23:00 <[Demo]> cause yeah, no one would have noticed
23:00 <aosdict> or not green-elf, something else with hands
23:00 <aosdict> that isn't already a race
23:02 <[Demo]> does the touchstone check Race_if or youracedata?
23:02 <[Demo]> presumably Race_if?
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23:13 <aosdict> I think it uses Race_if. assume it does for the sake of seeing what happens; then would your newty healer still be able to get that benefit?
23:14 <[Demo]> hmm good point good point
23:14 <[Demo]> i assumed it just special cased polymorph
23:14 <[Demo]> but it might be something special yeah
23:17 <aosdict> (of course a newty healer wouldn't be able to use a touchstone at all. ok, polyinitted kobold healer)
23:19 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] ptaff (Rog Hum Mal Cha) had Orcrist bestowed upon him by Kos, on T:7515
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23:23 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [fh] lyta (kelvin) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 21997 points, T:1442, killed by a rothe
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23:29 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] ptaff (Rog Hum Mal Cha) had Ogresmasher bestowed upon him by Kos, on T:8997
23:29 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh361] ptaff (Rog Hum Mal Cha) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:9002
23:40 <rld> <@Luxidream> wait I can't chat quest leader
23:40 <rld> <@Luxidream> noooo
23:41 <rld> <@Luxidream> oh they talk to you anyway
23:47 <bouquet> time to punch stuff!
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