00:20 -!- QueenDairy has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.1] 00:33 [hdf-us] [fh] TaxiPone (Kni Hum Fem Law), 18208 points, T:800, killed by a coyote 00:39 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 full limited moon", on T:31944 00:41 -!- Menche has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 00:44 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) genocided class 'h', on T:54123 00:54 Can someone try cloning the NH4 repo? It's not working for me and I'd like to know if it's something wrong on my end or their end. `git clone http://nethack4.org/media/nethack4.git` 01:05 -!- raisse\splat has joined #hardfought 01:05 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse\splat] by ChanServ 01:06 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 01:22 [hdf-us] [spl] DrakeMarshall (Car Ang Fem Law), 14 points, T:61, killed by a water moccasin 01:32 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 tie-dye shirt of shambhala", on T:34509 01:33 Junethack: Wolfechu ascended a game of NetHack 3.6.1 on nethack.alt.org! 01:39 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) destroyed the invisible Center of All, on T:35495 01:40 -!- AmyBSOD\srn has joined #hardfought 01:40 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed Axus, on T:35564 01:47 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed Oona, on T:36117 01:53 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) destroyed the Arsenal, on T:36429 01:58 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed Sir Garland, on T:37033 01:59 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed the Nightmare, on T:37166 02:01 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) destroyed Lich, the Fiend of Earth, on T:37445 02:02 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed Kary, the Fiend of Fire, on T:37470 02:02 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed Kraken, the Fiend of Water, on T:37535 02:03 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed Tiamat, the Fiend of Wind, on T:37589 02:05 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed Garland, on T:37882 02:05 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) destroyed Chaos, on T:37977 02:08 !tell Lymia you should totally make a "Lovelymiahack" variant ♥ 02:08 AmyBSOD\srn: Message from AntiGulp at 2018-06-11 17:17 EDT: Apparently my earlier message didn’t go through, aaagh. I *always* appreciate feedback! Sorry the demon swarm happened to you, you actually found something I totally missed. I was using the randomteleportlevel() function, which is biased toward nearby levels, and has a good chance of not teleporting the monster to a new level at all. I changed it to a simple rn2 check for now, that should be nicer for people to deal with. 02:08 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 02:09 [hdf-us] [4k] BigTitMcgee (mighty) (Mon Hum Fem Neu) entered the Sokoban zoo, on T:11745 02:10 also re: blessed gain ability, it's nerfed in slex too because I likewise consider it OP; in slex, the blessed potion has a chance of increasing more than one stat, but it's not guaranteed 02:12 -!- stenno\ito has joined #hardfought 02:14 what kind of name is that 02:14 Lymia: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-12 02:08 EDT: you should totally make a "Lovelymiahack" variant ♥ 02:14 no 02:14 -!- raisse\splat has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:14 "Love-Lymia-Hack" :D 02:14 but seriously you should make a variant, it'll be great! 02:19 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) defeated the Wizard of Yendor, on T:58152 02:19 wow AntiGulp nerfed the lord of overpoweredness... I guess too many people complained about him being OP? :P 02:19 slex will have the original version, of course 02:29 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) performed the invocation, on T:58656 02:32 So I can watch Tariru get 4/4 ascensions in another game, huh. :P 02:32 Lymia: what do you mean there's no repeatable way to cure attribute loss in slex? the spell of restore ability still exists, and so do unihorns ;) 02:33 Unihorns don't always work, and... you have to find spellbooks. :D 02:33 they both have been hit by the n-word stick (read: nerfed), but at least there's a way at all 02:33 "Consistent" as in, you can find a solution earlygame. 02:34 well as you and others have said, a renewable source that "always works" means stat loss is completely irrelevant as soon as you have it; SLEX fixes that ;) 02:35 also, if you look at Tariru's SLEX ascensions, you will see that most of his stats are maxed anyway 02:36 * Lymia shrugs 02:36 My core goal, really, would probably be to rewrite the Nethack codebase to be way easier to add stuff to. :D 02:36 !tell luxidream whoa yeah I was worried about those willowisps too, they never managed to nail any of my wands or rings but I guess genociding them may be a good idea (lightning OP, nerf plz :P) 02:36 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 02:36 If I can actually do so, it helps other new variants too. 02:38 oh I'm just reading in the backscroll that you asked aosdict\ito whether you can add new terrain types, mechanics and stuff? 02:38 slex already has a bunch of new terrain types, except they're not quest-specific or anything but can appear anywhere :) 02:39 Well. 02:40 The implication there is, "in a sane way, without horrible code debt." 02:42 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) defeated the high priestess of Moloch, on T:59261 03:04 !tell K2 ooh did I read that right, you (and maybe Tangles) are the maintainer of sporkhack now? you might want to look into the bugged drawbridge then, which cannot be opened with a tonal instrument. ;) 03:04 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 03:05 !tell K2 LOOOOOOOOOL evilhack??? seriously? you're going to combine grunt and spork to make the most evil variant in existence? hilarious :D it will make SLEX look like disneyland by comparison! 03:05 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 03:07 sporkhack IMHO "fixes" the "melee is too powerful" thing, by making it so that your samurai with maxxed long sword skill still does only scratch damage and requires 5 hits for a BUGBEAR. If the intention of the dev was to make melee not capable of handling every situation, he succeeded ;) 03:07 . o O (if (!strncmpi(plname, "Tariru", 6))) 03:08 Lymia: what, does that actually exist somewhere? 03:08 No :p 03:08 slex does have the following in do_wear.c though: if (!strncmpi(plname, "Ella", 4)) 03:16 I don't actually know if I'll be able to finish a Nethack rewrite :D 03:16 But I can try. 03:16 (... now) 03:16 (Do I base the mechanics off 3.4.x or 3.6.x 03:19 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) entered the Planes, on T:61248 03:21 heh I have an idea: Lymia, how about making a variant of SLEX :D 03:22 I'd prefer to start from a state where I'd add things rather than remove things :P 03:23 you heretic! why would you remove things :( 03:32 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 03:32 -!- MisteryMyra has joined #hardfought 03:33 [hdf-us] [un] Luxidream (Val Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased +2 shield of reflection", on T:2397 03:35 I don't want to make Evil Variant 2. :P 03:36 -!- MiseryMyra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:36 well K2 is apparently planning to do that already (Evil Variant 1 is Grunthack) 03:38 I've had quite a few issues in slex with there being too many monsters for color/glyph combinations to tell you everything you need to know, I guess :D 03:39 Tapioca monsters do the e freeze-on-hit effect without being as noticeable on first sight. 03:39 Where do egotypes originate? 03:39 ToME 03:39 i.e. that's where I got the idea from 03:40 Is that the game with >1000 achievements 03:41 yes 03:41 you're probably thinking of MajEyal, but I mean the old ToME, i.e. 2.3.5, back when it still was an Angband variant 03:42 (is it still a nethack variant if it's completely rewritten?) 03:43 https://abload.de/img/tm0285h3uqv.png ("Emperor Mimic" is the monster and "Shrieker" is its egotype in this case) 03:44 well, not sure, the thing that mcw is programming still looks very NetHack-like to me, so I could probably consider it a NetHack variant if it stays true to the original 03:45 What is mcw doing? 03:46 making a roguelike in, I think it's C++ 03:47 ah 03:47 I'd be using Rust, and I doubt it will look like Nethack's code :D 03:47 I'd definitely be porting most of the gameplay, thugh 03:47 though* 03:48 this happens about twice a year, somebody showing up wanting to rewrite nethack in a different language 03:48 nobody has succeeded yet 03:48 so good luck 03:49 (in the last 10 years or so) 03:49 ^^ that's why I would recommend making "LoveLymiaHack" an actual variant of an existing nethack variant instead of attempting the huuuuuge task of porting everything to a different language 03:50 but I guess in theory it can be done 03:50 it would require lots of time though 03:51 to be honest, you should try to write your own roguelike and let yourself get inspired by some of nethacks mechanics maybe 03:51 there you have artistic freedom 03:51 'should' as in, that is something you could do 03:54 I mean, the whole thing I did with Civ V left me asking "why didn't someone do this before" too. It'll never get done if nobody tries because others have failed before. 03:55 [hdf-us] [4k] BigTitMcgee (mighty) (Mon Hum Fem Law) entered the Rogue tribute level, on T:16223 03:57 [hdf-us] [dnh] Luxidream (Dnb-Nob Dwa Mal Law) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1249 03:58 well of course its a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy 03:59 and after all you can do what you want so 03:59 but you might maybe find soon enough that its not an attractive project at all 04:04 there is a reason those people failed and it wasn't that they were bad programmers 04:05 anyway, time to go to work 04:05 I will note, didn't Nethack itself originate as a rewrite of an earlier game? 04:12 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:16 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1] 04:23 -!- stenno\ito has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:27 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:30 [hdf-us] [dnh] Luxidream (Dnb-Nob Dwa Mal Law) completed Sokoban, on T:10664 04:31 !tell FIQ how did you manage to get FIQhack to keep getting Travis builds? for slex it stopped once github decided to deprecate services :( my travis.yml is very similar to yours yet I'm not getting builds, do I have to set up webhooks or something? 04:31 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 04:32 !tell K2 I've backported a couple bugfixes from upstream to the slexjunethack222 branch - can you update? (please make sure not to pull the master branch :D) 04:32 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 04:33 [hdf-us] [dnh] Luxidream (Dnb-Nob Dwa Mal Law) was given the Armor of Khazad-dum, on T:11574 04:34 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 04:34 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 04:40 -!- raisse\splat has joined #hardfought 04:40 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse\splat] by ChanServ 04:41 cobra in the first room! 04:41 I had conduct tracking on for pacifist, but still started with gloves not worn. Is this intentional? (I didn't pick nudist.) 04:55 [hdf-us] [dnh] Luxidream (Dnb-Nob Dwa Mal Law) was given the Profaned Greatscythe, on T:14421 04:56 <@luxidream> what the hell is this 04:56 @luxidream: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-12 02:36 EDT: whoa yeah I was worried about those willowisps too, they never managed to nail any of my wands or rings but I guess genociding them may be a good idea (lightning OP, nerf plz :P) 04:57 <@luxidream> amy: they got my ring of slow digestion really early in the game. super annoying 05:00 [hdf-us] [dnh] Luxidream (Dnb-Nob Dwa Mal Law) was given Friede's Scythe, on T:14993 05:00 <@luxidream> what 05:00 -!- AmyBSOD\srn_ has joined #hardfought 05:01 argh this stuuuupid irc client became unresponsive 05:01 ha, sounds like my ex 05:01 and apparently my answer got eaten... I said "the worst part is that the only protection is to make absolutely sure you never let the willowisp get a melee turn against you" 05:01 seriously, item destruction in vanilla is insane, and some variants actively make it worse 05:01 SLASH'EM is guilty of that too, with the arc/lightning/whatever bugs 05:02 -!- AmyBSOD\srn has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02 also, in SLASH'EM, if they nail a wand, it does whatever the wand normally does, so if you were carrying a wand of death, you get a death field. Guess what that can do. 05:02 -!- AmyBSOD\srn_ is now known as AmyBSOD\srn 05:05 <@luxidream> yeah. antigulp might think that it encourages diversity or something by making you use ranged attacks, but really it's just an annoyance that forces you to bag your rings 05:05 There's no countermeasures against item destruction, which is what really kills it :c 05:05 <@luxidream> if there were some defence against it like the ring of shock resist in FIQhack it would be fine 05:07 <@luxidream> honestly the rest of splice was pretty alright 05:07 how did you deal with the lord of overpoweredness (foocubi)? 05:08 <@luxidream> read 3 scrolls of time and beat him to death 05:08 <@luxidream> how did you kill him? 05:09 polyself into purple worm and devour him in one round; got lucky that my polymorphed HP lasted long enough because he got the first turn 05:11 <@luxidream> ouch 05:12 <@luxidream> I assume he deals a ton of damage, but I wasn't sticking around to find out 05:12 <@luxidream> mephisto was actually kinda tough. he did 50+ per round 05:12 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 05:13 Mephisto appeared along with Demogorgon and Yeenoghu on the VS level in my game; it was "cursed gain level or YASD" really, but AntiGulp apparently fixed that in the next version by making it less likely to have a bunch of them sticking around on the VS 05:15 Buer, on the other hand, was a pain in the rear end when he appeared close to the end of my ascension run. There's a reason why SLEX changes the covetous AI :P 05:15 <@luxidream> I don't know if I like how you can use cursed gain level to bypass them anyway. but in your case it was kinda unfair 05:16 -!- deadnoob_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:16 <@luxidream> I didn't even see buer, whacked him a couple times and he read a scroll of teleportation 05:16 <@luxidream> still have no idea what he does 05:17 he just dishes out abnormal amounts of physical damage and has no other abilities, but that alone was enough to annoy me endlessly while I was making my way to the upstair 05:21 <@luxidream> I assume you tried going downstairs to kill him already? 05:22 nah, I unfortunately forgot to do that, or maybe my mind was still in the "it didn't work against the lord of the foocubi so it's pointless to even try" state 05:23 because that bastard always stole something and entered flee mode, so he just would not follow me downstairs! ARRGH 05:31 [hdf-us] [nh361] dizzylizzy (Kni Hum Mal Law), 341 points, T:1160, killed by a gnome lord, while frozen by a potion 05:35 <@luxidream> amy, where can I find the list of scroll labels for slex? 05:38 objects.c 05:38 in the src folder 05:39 wait, I can get a link 05:39 https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SLASHEM-Extended/SLASHEM-Extended/master/src/objects.c 05:46 I wonder if modular patches is something that'd attract variant devs to a new engine, if I can get one actually up to vanilla level. 05:46 ... wait. oh no 05:53 so I don't mean to complain 05:54 but I'm playing unnethack and I entered a room FULL of brown puddings, rust monsters, and disenchanters 05:55 -!- Menche has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 05:58 <@luxidream> dilapidated armory, yes 05:58 dizzylizzy\ito: that's an armory, be glad it doesn't have disintegrators too 05:58 <@luxidream> and? 05:58 <@luxidream> if the downstairs isn't in there don't go in 06:05 <3 sphere spells 06:05 Very good for rooms full of nope 06:05 until you run into a room full of nopes with resists 06:05 :( 06:05 -!- rebatela has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:08 luxidream for real 06:14 -!- deadnoob_ has joined #hardfought 06:19 -!- deadnoob has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:22 I think stairs can't be in special rooms, or can they? 06:23 dizzylizzy\ito: so you want to complain about a room full of armor free of charge? 06:24 bhaak: "Free of charge"... 06:25 bhaak: It only costs you all that disenchantment and erosion the monsters inflict on you. 06:29 doesn't un still have the vanilla nethack cheat code though? :P 06:30 are you talking about the sacred e-word 06:30 It does. 06:31 yes :D 06:31 and I know that I'll never be admitted into hdf's exclusive circle if I don't have at least one elberethless ascension under my belt, but... 06:32 it's only a cheat code inasmuch as slex is like putting the difficulty on "Bananaphone" 06:33 very easy to go e-less in 3.6.1 vanilla 06:33 AmyBSOD\srn: You make it seem like elberethless is something to write home about. 06:33 well, in the original version of nethack (or it might even have been in hack), Elbereth was indeed an undocumented cheat code 06:34 -!- raisse\splat has quit [Quit: Suddenly, Raisse disappears out of sight.] 06:34 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 06:34 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 06:34 -!- raisse is now known as raisse\splat 06:34 Mandevil: well I guess you can ascend elberethless in your sleep; my level of skill is far lower though, and my "kamikaze strategy" with the samurai relies on it quite a bit early on 06:35 lotsa things were undocumented I'm bettin 06:35 AmyBSOD\srn: In 3.6.1 the Elbereth is so useless, that you might actually not bother at all. 06:37 hmm, I still find it useful there, although of course burning one is a complete waste of a wand charge 06:38 much better to zap the enemy with that charge and hopefully kill it :P 06:42 Mandevil: you can disenchant a naked man 06:42 Mandevil: you can't disenchant a naked man 06:45 or maybe you can? is there a variant that let's disenchanters remove the intrinsic protection? 06:46 what unspeakable cruelty is this 06:46 next you'll suggest it can drain abilities back to their starting values 06:47 * bhaak takes notes 06:49 slex has negators, which are disenchanters that can disenchant your gear down all the way to -20, but that also requires you to be wearing equipment in the first place like the regular disenchanter attack 06:49 that's evil 06:49 I don't know if that even needs to be said, amy 06:49 if I come up with an idea, I'm gonna guess slex has it or something like it ;) 06:52 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +2 cloak of protection", on T:47489 06:52 slex is a WIP project, if I like your idea and it isn't already in slex it may be implemented in a future version :D 06:56 I'm beginning to believe that Amy may be evil 06:57 "beginning" 06:58 chaotic neutral, actually, according to the D&D alignment test :D 07:04 no way, no German ever was evil 07:19 Slash'EM Extended updated (all servers) 07:19 K2: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-12 03:04 EDT: ooh did I read that right, you (and maybe Tangles) are the maintainer of sporkhack now? you might want to look into the bugged drawbridge then, which cannot be opened with a tonal instrument. ;) 07:19 K2: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-12 03:05 EDT: LOOOOOOOOOL evilhack??? seriously? you're going to combine grunt and spork to make the most evil variant in existence? hilarious :D it will make SLEX look like disneyland by comparison! 07:19 K2: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-12 04:32 EDT: I've backported a couple bugfixes from upstream to the slexjunethack222 branch - can you update? (please make sure not to pull the master branch :D) 07:19 yay! thanks K2! 07:20 you're just now realizing that we've been maintaining sporkhack? :) 07:20 its been about a year now 07:22 and i dount EvilHack ever sees the light of day. I don't have the skill to make my own variant 07:22 doubt 07:22 i hate this keyboard 07:24 aww... I'd play it just to see how much it can screw me over ;) 07:24 also, sporkhack samurai is fine 07:25 that was my first ever spork asc 07:26 wtf? I've tried one too and the katana needed 5 hits for a bugbear despite my skill being maxxed! how do you become capable of killing stuff in spork? my kamikaze strategy that basically works in all the other variants simply fails in spork :( 07:27 you cant base your conclusion off of just one encounter 07:27 it may have been an outlier 07:28 was it wearing armor? was your luck low or negative? 07:28 etc etc 07:28 or just bad tohit rolls 07:28 a 1 always misses ya know ;) 07:28 happened with gnome lords and several other low-level stuff, whereas a vanilla character at that point could probably two-shot a mumak... 07:29 maybe spork gives monsters damage reduction when they're wearing armor? 07:29 i havent looked in the code, maybe have a look at the source Amy and see if there were any changes to combat 07:32 AmyBSOD\srn: [backscroll] We were actually discussing the melee is too powerful thing yesterday; it *would* be nice to have some challenges in the game that melee can't solve or is very bad at, though obviously not for stuff like standard bugbears 07:32 @luxidream Eh, cursed gain level is an acceptable strat when you consider that currently splice has the nastiest implementation of demon lords, even more so than Grunt (you encounter all of them, AND they covetous warp to you.) 07:32 Mandevil: 3.6.1 Elbereth is useless? Wut? 07:33 I don't think it's useless but there's a lot more constraint than in 3.4.3 07:33 aosdict\ito: It has so many limitations, that I just don't care. 07:36 Really, it's only useless if the only thing you used it for was stuff like standing on the upstairs of a Gehennom lair and whacking a demon lord while he fled away until he died 07:36 No, I used it in many cases when I was suddenly mobbed by c?oCM spawns etc. 07:36 There burned Elbereth was invaluable. 07:37 That use is gone. 07:38 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:40 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 07:40 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 07:53 I'm surprised they also nerfed it to eventually fade 07:53 (Regardless of source) 07:53 The "You feel like a hypocrite" isn't enough? 07:54 This feels like a variant's overnerfing 07:54 3.6.1 is a variant of 3.4.3 golden standard :--) 07:56 :D 07:57 the 3.4.3/3.6.x divide is almost as much of a holy war as the D&D edition wars, I guess 07:58 That will end when NAO shuts down 3.4.3. 07:58 Which will happen by the end of June. 07:59 Mandevil: hardfought still has 343-nao 08:00 and apparently will continue hosting it 08:01 for a n00b (like me), is one better then the other, or is it just different flavours? 08:01 If one was plainly better the question would not arise 08:02 Mandevil: also, long time players would continue to moan about it even after 343 gets removed from all servers 08:02 true 08:02 Mind you, ~no-one kept playing 3.3, 3.2; only a few holdouts stuck with 3.1.3. I suspect 3.4.3 would have faded away if 3.6.0 had been released 3 years later rather than 3.4.3 getting stuck in people's heads forever. 08:02 Pinkbeast: Well. Mechanics wise, 3.4.3 E is definitely better. 08:02 K2: Remove 3.4.3 please ;-) 08:02 K2: After Junethack. 08:02 aosdict\ito: Sez you - I disagree. 08:03 Pinkbeast: Better in the sense of its power for the player - there's nothing 3.6.1 E can do that 3.4.3 E can't 08:03 heh 08:03 farfar: however, I'd recommend not worrying about 3.4.3 E if you're new 08:03 the way it works in 3.6.1 is not horribly overpowered 08:04 aosdict\ito: Ah. I see what you mean but I didn't think that was the sense of farfar's question 08:04 if you really want 3.4.3 to fade away into the sunset, all these popular variants that are still on its code base need to move away from it and go to 3.6.x or nh4 08:04 Yeah, that's the kicker. 08:04 3.3, 3.2, those didn't have variants built on them. 08:05 I guess SLASH'EM persisted, somehow. 08:05 And dNetHack, right? 08:05 And we still occasionally have little problems where a SLASH'EM thing doesn't work the same way as in 3.4.3. 08:05 Obviously, SLASH'EM is irrelevant. 08:05 aosdict\ito: then 3.6.1 it is :) 08:05 Mandevil: I was pretty sure dnethack was a 3.4.3 variant 08:06 FWIW I don't want 3.4.3 to fade away (nor for it not to, I don't really have an opinion), I just think its longevity is why it hasn't - of course that longevity is why it has so many variants 08:06 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 08:06 Lymia: I just saw what you wrote earlier, in 3.6.1, elbereth uses the same rules for fading over time as in 3.4.3. 08:07 some of the variants probably spawned because we all thought no official new nethack version would ever come after 3.4.3 ;) 08:07 aosdict\ito: That's just not true. 08:07 Thus, a burned engraving lasts forever as long as you don't hypocrite it away. 08:07 aosdict\ito: Burned doesn't degrade??? 08:07 Mandevil: in 3.6.0, it does, very slowly 08:07 that was reverted in 3.6.1 08:08 ah 08:08 That's good 08:08 They got their senses back :D 08:08 aosdict\ito: Aha, didn't know that. 08:08 honestly, I didn't have any real problems with 3.6.0's Elbereth behavior either... just had to know that a dust engraving won't help if more than one enemy is attacking at the same time 08:09 Mandevil: also, the "makes a degrade attempt when it scares a monster" was removed in 3.6.1 too. 08:09 Okok. 08:10 anyway, I think overall I agree with what someone said earlier - E seems like it works much better if you assume everyone's playing unspoiled and has to discover it on their own. 08:10 !who 08:10 Grasshopper: [hdf-us] Eleven [nh361] hothraxxa [un] 08:10 Grasshopper: [hdf-eu] elenmirie [nh4] Raisse [nh343] Graznop [nh361] Muad [un] 08:10 Grasshopper: [hdf-au] Grasshopper [nh361] Tangles [4k] 08:11 But today you can visit the wiki homepage and be pelted with featured articles about E, role strategy articles about E, etc. 08:12 Even back then 08:12 People could source dive, no? 08:12 Lymia: I don't think there ever was a "back then". 08:12 Elbereth was in the Guidebook waaaaaay back when in early 90's 08:13 As in, it was practical to get spoiled as much as you liked via rgrn. 08:13 Wizard mode was always there too. 08:13 ok, but it doesn't change my overall opinion - E works best if the player doesn't know about it from the outset and eventually learns about it in-game, without source diving or debug tools. 08:14 Back in the 90's I played almost completely unspoiled, except for a wishing spoiler 08:14 this goes to what I want to do in grunthack (or evilhack if i can ever make it) - E word wont work until the hero discovers it in-game 08:14 but never liked the idea of E 08:14 aosdict\ito: what if the E simply didn't work at all until you discovered it in-game? 08:14 AmyBSOD\srn: well, see K2's comment 08:14 damn, ninja'd by K2 :P 08:15 i've been saying this for last couple years now ;) 08:15 K2: Basically dNetHack.... 08:15 but in grunthack of all things??? because grunthack isn't evil enough? :P 08:15 just merge in spork's elbereth change ;) 08:15 GruntHack isn't that evil anyway. 08:15 ^ 08:15 K2, but the idea of E is to allow squishy lv1 characters a chance to survive 08:16 Add "rest until healed" for that 08:16 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) killed Juiblex, on T:49931 08:16 i would rather rely on skill 08:16 dnethack's wards system has the problem that in the beginning you know no wards, so the soldier ant swarm or is going to end you. Later on, when you have all the wards, you're also powerful enough to simply steamroller everything without needing wards :D 08:16 I blame the shopkeeper of the ~3x15 food store that wouldn't let me in. 08:17 tbh 08:17 Muad\ito: You're an escaped felon. 08:17 I think Nethack 3.6.x has the right approach, in principle 08:17 E works as a survival tool earlygame (to some extant) 08:17 Muad\ito: He could have picked up his phone and called the wardern Arianna. 08:18 But is limited enough (especially the Hell limitation) to not persist into the lategame 08:18 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 08:18 K2: Yeah, earlygame E has this very very cemented status. It'll be *hard* to make players swallow any nerf to it. 08:19 for example, if I nerfed it somehow: aosdict: why do you hate healers 08:19 ;) 08:20 if i ever make EvilHack, that's the change to E i'll make 08:20 cant use it until you discover it in game 08:20 Lymia: The reason I don't like E as an earlygame survival tool is it doesn't cost anything and is limitless. 08:20 K2: That's just dNetHack ward system, but you only have one ward. 08:20 K2: And you need to get to top of Soko to get it. 08:20 ahh 08:21 aosdict\ito, isn't this good for newer players? 08:21 unfortunately i dont play enough dnethack 08:21 Neither do I. 08:21 dNetHack is daunting. 08:21 Lymia: Actually I think not; if you tell newer players that this is an important survival tool, they end up using it as a crutch 08:22 what if instead of Elbereth there were a wand of fear that, when zapped, is basically like saying Elbereth, but has limited charges and isn't all that common as a randomly generated item? 08:22 sweet 08:23 \to tangles livelog 08:23 AmyBSOD\srn: then you either have to do something awful like give all starting players such an item, or have people complain because $FAVORITEROLE doesn't get one. 08:23 Mandevil, but I had a lot of money I, er, found lying around.. I could've paid triple for any food! 08:23 Re earlygame survival, besides add "rest until healed", make the pet clingier / more controllable. 08:24 Muad\ito: You could have also been shot at sight. 08:24 Muad\ito: Convicts are hard. 08:24 Muad\ito: And if you think they are not hard enough, there's vampire convict. 08:24 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 08:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 08:25 Who lets shopkeeps survive past level 10 anyway? 08:25 Lymia: Why kill them? 08:25 Pinkbeast: Natural bloodthirstiness. 08:26 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:26 Pinkbeast: They get in the way. 08:26 Pinkbeast: They are arrogant. 08:26 So you can save your money, and take their money, then use it to buy protection. 08:26 :D 08:26 Pinkbeast: ...and many more. 08:26 Mandevil, yeah, I tried one earlier and starved. 08:26 "Thou art arrogant, shopkeeper." 08:27 Muad\ito: Vampire alone is pretty hard to keep alive. 08:27 Muad\ito: Vampire convict is insane. 08:27 Well there is a 14-conduct vampire convict ascension... 08:27 yeah they are 08:27 Lymia: If I want to take their money I'll use a pet (which as a non-Chaotic I'd need to kill them anyway), keeping them around provides price-ID, money is going to become irrelevant soon anyway 08:27 they are fun but you can run out of 'food' quickly 08:27 AmyBSOD\srn: That's something that boggles mind. 08:27 You basically depend on getting =oSD before you starve. 08:28 https://ascension.run/userdata/SolarFlare/dynahack/dumplog/2017-06-03%2012_52_27,%20Arrhythmia-Con-Vam-Fem-Cha,%20died.txt 08:29 Mandevil: I guess automated start scumming till you find a ring in the starting room could work. 08:29 atheist foodless wieldedweaponless genoless polyobjectless polyselfless wishless elberethless bonesfileless 08:29 I got vampiric wizard into deep Mines. 08:29 But that's about how far I get. 08:29 I ascended a vamp wiz last junethack, it was fun 08:29 How you keep it alive? 08:29 anyway, gotta go now, will be back later to execute my master plan that will let the nymphets win junethack :P (just kidding!) 08:29 Or did you scum for the ring of sd? 08:30 -!- AmyBSOD\srn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:31 I don't startscum and I don't think I started with one naturally. 08:31 I remember resource-managing the gnomes in the Mines, leaving a couple alive on each level as fresh blood sources 08:31 As wiz, I find that I almost don't cast because it costs extra nutrition. 08:31 And you also want to melee to drain lifeblood. 08:31 I'll have to see if the compiler can handle this abstraction well later :D 08:32 If it works, yay, 0 cost extensible event handler system. 08:32 Also you have to drain the corpses in 3 turns, which I find absolutely abhorrent. 08:32 Mandevil: I really liked having an incredibly powerful base form (extra attacks, flying, hungerless regeneration) - the blood need was something that could be worked around. 08:33 "hungerless regeneration" 08:35 well, you know, hunger ticking by 1 per turn instead of 2. 08:35 I once got intrinsic regeneration by eating the ring of regen. 08:36 After short elation I realized, that I made a terrible mistake. 08:36 I think I ascended that game anyway. 08:36 Mandevil: Surely this was at the point where food had become irrelevant (mind you, later ring regeneration becomes near-irrelevant too) 08:36 ring of regen is good even late in the game. 08:37 No, it isn't. 08:37 It provides only a small fraction of natural regeneration. 08:37 Pinkbeast: I dunno, in my most recent game I failed to plan out my food, lost my lembas wafers, and barely had enough k-rations and pancakes to make it past famine 08:37 I suppose I could have levelported to the Castle and back to grab more, but didn't. 08:38 aosdict\ito: That seems like a self-inflicted difficulty, then. 08:43 i love encountering enormous rats in unnethack 08:43 we just watched 'the princess bride' the other day 08:43 rodents of unusual size > enormous rats 08:43 weee 08:43 K2: how did your daughter like it 08:44 LOVED it 08:44 I was talking to someone yesterday who wanted to show it to her sons but didn't think they'd watch it based on the title 08:44 inconceivable! 08:44 I do in fact think that word means what you think it means. 08:44 someone pointed out that that was the whole point of the little boy's character 08:45 iocaine powder... i'd bet my life on it 08:45 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:45 hahahahah 08:45 when my daughters were learning fencing (preteen age) the instructor set The Princess Bride as homework 08:45