00:03 <[Demo][srn]> heh 00:03 <[Demo][srn]> I don't know if those are parsed for much though 00:03 Junethack? :P 00:04 hmm 00:04 So you can't call something a tab 00:04 <[Demo][srn]> junethack checks xlivelog 00:04 Where is this processed 00:04 <[Demo][srn]> specific messages for trophies 00:04 xlivelog? 00:05 <[Demo][srn]> I'm not sure ask someone that's implemented jnh trophies into a variant 00:05 <[Demo][srn]> I'm at the point where I'm just awake enough to type 00:09 -!- a_boudelia has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.1] 00:11 [hdf-us] [slex] NotLymia (Mah Wis Mal Cha), 0 points, T:35, killed by a monster (fluffy cat called )death=ascended (with the Amulet) 00:11 hm 00:12 [hdf-us] [nh13d] rustmonster (Priest ### Mal ###) killed the ghost of °, the former Priest, on T:4420 00:12 -!- a_boudelia has joined #hardfought 00:13 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) genocided class 'L', on T:35395 00:13 Reading the code, \t shouldn't be filtered from here 00:13 -!- a_boudelia has quit [Client Quit] 00:21 [hdf-us] [4k] Dildozo (mighty) (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 11205 points, T:4015, killed by a Mordor orc 00:27 [hdf-us] [un] k2 (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 23881 points, T:11097, killed by a Woodland-elf 00:28 [hdf-us] [slex] NotLymia (Kni Lol Mal Cha), 4 points, T:14, ascended (with the Amulet) https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/N/NotLymia/slex/dumplog/1528691261.slex.txt 00:29 LOL 00:29 It worked 00:29 yeah, sort of ;) 00:29 K2: Message from aosdict\ito at 2018-06-10 23:24 EDT: Why are there so many random water E on the Plane of Air? Leads to a lot of message spam about "The water elemental has difficulty controlling its movements." 00:30 xlogfile wont show that you ascended 00:31 death=slipped while mounting a monster (a saddled pony called ) death=ascended (with the Amulet) 00:32 [hdf-us] [4k] DongMonster (mighty) (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 5625 points, T:1071, killed by a piranha 00:33 [hdf-us] [nh13d] rustmonster (Pri Mal), 10694 points, T:5761, owlbear 00:33 [hdf-us] [un] k2 (Sam Hum Mal Law), 64 points, T:282, killed by a sewer rat 00:37 It kinda does, depending on how you parse it 00:37 The naive way (without checking for duplicates) will show as death=ascended (with the Amulet) 00:37 Which is what Beholder did 00:37 death=ascended (without the amulet, spooky) 00:39 K2, https://www.hardfought.org/nethack/slex-zscores/ < To show the trickery works 00:39 hrm 00:40 i can fix that most likely 00:40 https://www.hardfought.org/nethack/nh343-zscores/ when does this update 00:40 zid immediately 00:41 I have a hardfought nh343 ascension but no z-score 00:41 lemme check 00:41 Lymia you tricked the NHS also 00:42 !tell Mandevil trickery ascension with slex, look at your scoreboard and look at this - https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/N/NotLymia/slex/dumplog/1528691261.slex.txt 00:42 Will do, K2! 00:42 [hdf-us] [slex] NotLymia (Kni Lol Fem Cha), 9 points, T:5, trying an illegal ride 00:42 <[Demo][srn]> yey nice 00:43 .... illegal ride? 00:43 huh 00:43 my mother is an illegal ride 00:43 zid what server did you ascend on? 00:44 eu 00:44 be it not syncing 00:44 [hdf-us] [slex] XSS (Kni Lol Mal Cha), 0 points, T:89, ascended (with the amulet) (sorry, no dump exists for slex:XSS) 00:44 hardfought scoreboard currently only tracks hdf-us server games 00:44 so.. it's useless then, gotcha 00:44 its on the to-do to cover them all 00:44 It should not be only SLEX that is affected 00:44 and the answer was actually 'never' 00:44 zid 00:45 you forgot the "pls" 00:45 stop talking 00:45 no 00:45 wtf 00:45 fyi 00:45 This isn't a slex-specific thing 00:45 Lymia didnt think so 00:45 It should work on any NH variant that supports *name= and uses tabs in xlogfile 00:45 ban me or admit it's a useless page to me, idk which 00:45 telling me to shut up instead? lol 00:46 zid not my problem if you dont like the answer ;) 00:46 except for it was a lie 00:46 the answer was 'never', not 'immediately, I pointed that out and you got pissy 00:46 i thought you played on us server 00:46 my bad 00:47 I'd just play on nao 00:47 * K2 shrugs 00:47 anyways 00:48 horsename=)\tname=Tariru\tdeath=trickery : 00:48 :^) 00:48 yeah, idk how to fix this 00:48 Easiest way is probably to reject duplicate fields 00:49 And ignore the xlogfile entry entirely 00:49 oh, someone's been messing with the parser? 00:49 hmm 00:49 I did that on nao, killed myself to a newt named document.href=barbie.com; 00:49 sorry paxed :p 00:49 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:49 .... did it work XD 00:49 yrd 00:49 omg 00:49 yes 00:49 I also did a RCE in rodney 00:50 It's basically the same attack as the classic header splitting thing on HTTP 00:51 https://nhqdb.alt.org/?180 00:52 opps 00:53 wasn't escaping ` properly in one of the hard-coded commands 00:54 Soso 00:54 Question 00:54 do i 00:54 execute this on NAO 00:54 :^) 00:55 Doesn't the regex just need a ^ sticking at the front 00:56 K2, https://i.imgur.com/tnlEhAb.png 00:56 btw 00:56 if you want something extra-spooky 00:57 It also hit nhs 00:59 heh, the rc editor strips rather than escaping it 00:59 it truncates the line where the < would be 00:59 fixed hdf scoreboard 01:00 added extra criteria 01:00 What'd you do, exactly? 01:00 I can make invisible rcfiles at least 01:00 ;) 01:01 ah I didn't realize xlogfile was in the format it's in, I guess : needs escaping to be completely safe to parse 01:03 [hdf-us] [slex] NotLymia (Kni Lol Mal Cha), 0 points, T:12, trying an illegal ride 01:04 [hdf-us] [slex] NotLymia (Kni Lol Mal Cha), 4 points, T:33, ascended (with the amulet) https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/N/NotLymia/slex/dumplog/1528693388.slex.txt 01:04 name=NotLymia death=ascended (with the amulet picks up 10 gold pieces {0}. 01:04 kek 01:05 K2, gg ;) 01:05 you broke your logs though 01:05 https://i.imgur.com/kXjMBH8.png 01:06 which screen is that from? its not the top scores 01:07 oh i see 01:08 and you mean YOU broke my logs ;) 01:09 or maybe it was an already existing issue with the slex scoreboard 01:10 nao escapes = to _ 01:12 -!- raisse\splat has joined #hardfought 01:12 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse\splat] by ChanServ 01:13 [hdf-us] [slex] NotLymia (Kni Lol Mal Cha), 0 points, T:45, killed by a riding accident 01:13 rip Beholder being funny 01:14 [hdf-us] [slex] NotLymia (Kni Lol Mal Cha), 0 points, T:11, trying an illegal ride 01:14 [hdf-us] [slex] NotLymia (Kni Lol Mal Cha), 0 points, T:4, trying an illegal ride 01:14 actually slipping isnt so easy 01:15 [hdf-us] [slex] NotLymia (Kni Lol Mal Cha), 0 points, T:26, slipped while mounting a monster (a saddled pony called ) 01:16 call it horsie worsie 01:17 4horsie worsie I mean 01:24 good find Lymia thanks for letting me know 01:24 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 01:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 01:32 [hdf-us] [4k] BigTitMcgee (mighty) (Mon Hum Fem Cha) entered the Minetown temple, on T:2939 01:45 K2, I'm going to see if any unholy trickery works ;) 01:45 What makes trickery unholy? well... you'll see if it works 01:46 -!- AmyBSOD\srn has joined #hardfought 01:47 Hi Amy~ 01:48 morning Lymia! 01:49 [hdf-us] [4k] BigTitMcgee (mighty) (Mon Hum Fem Neu) reached the bottom of the Mines, on T:4015 01:53 It seems that there will be no unholy trickery :D 01:53 Thankfully 01:54 Can't get a \r in the horse name 01:54 Tabs seem to break Nethack's curses handling though, so. 01:54 ... you know 01:54 If you feel evil enough 01:54 You can put tabs in your fruit name 01:54 :D 01:56 and what would that do exactly? 01:57 screw up a persons game if they came across that fruit while in curses mode? 02:19 !tell AntiGulp well, those polymorphed quest guardians certainly continued polymorphing, even when one of them ended up on the level below he still polymorphed every few turns 02:19 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 02:27 -!- MisteryMyra has joined #hardfought 02:30 -!- MiseryMyra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35 <@earlyaccessgorgon> !who 02:35 @earlyaccessgorgon: [hdf-us] k2 [un] mighty [4k] 02:35 @earlyaccessgorgon: [hdf-eu] farfar [nh343] Raisse [nh343] Muad [sp] 02:35 @earlyaccessgorgon: [hdf-au] Grasshopper [nh361] Tangles [4k] 02:37 [Demo][srn]: the monster color changes are there for exactly one reason: screwing over the player who is used to monsters looking like they normally would. I complained numerous times about that but apparently it's going to stay the way it is now. :( Worst part is the recoloring isn't consistent across variants that recolor monsters. 02:40 -!- AmyBSOD\srn has quit [Quit: gtg now] 02:42 Status of AmyBSOD (lawful): Level 15 HP 72(72) AC 1, peaceful. 02:43 (i resurrected her) 02:47 nice patch idea: being rewarded with a hero's dinner when you complete your quest (restore hp and reduce hunger) 02:48 nice patch idea: the same or some other reward when you find your quest leader once you have the amulet of yendor, and not just words of encouragement 02:48 by the way, is there a variant in which the quest leader and guardians can actually do some fighting? 02:49 Muad\ito, now tame her :D 02:49 !who 02:49 bug_sniper: [hdf-us] Luxidream [dyn] k2 [un] mighty [4k] 02:49 bug_sniper: [hdf-eu] farfar [nh343] Raisse [nh343] Muad [sp] 02:49 bug_sniper: [hdf-au] Grasshopper [nh361] Tangles [4k] 02:54 Lymia, can't tame, she's human :( 02:54 i could polymorph her first 02:55 my dragon killed her before I could tame her 02:55 (she was some kind of demon at that point) 02:57 Junethack: vaffanculo ascended a game of NetHack 3.6.1 on em.slashem.me! 03:00 -!- Announcy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01 -!- Announcy has joined #hardfought 03:12 !ping 03:12 Grassy: Pong! 03:13 !ping 03:13 Mandevil: Message from K2 at 2018-06-11 00:42 EDT: trickery ascension with slex, look at your scoreboard and look at this - https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/N/NotLymia/slex/dumplog/1528691261.slex.txt 03:13 Mandevil: Pong! 03:13 Yes, people have to muck with this when I am away and can't fix it quickly. 03:14 -!- MiseryMyra has joined #hardfought 03:15 But the real fix is that the game won't allow user putting field separator into anything that ends up in the xlogfile. 03:15 -!- MisteryMyra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:15 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:15 Because the fix is really a dirty workaround. 03:15 Not real fix. 03:17 - $l{$1} = $2; 03:17 + $l{$1} = $2 unless exists $l{$1}; 03:17 This should fix it for NHS. 03:24 -!- raisse\splat has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24 -!- raisse\splat has joined #hardfought 03:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse\splat] by ChanServ 03:40 OK, fix deployed. 03:41 r - a long bow named Yoichi no yumi (unpaid, 3600 zorkmids) {12}. 03:41 ... I guess this is viable for me to use 03:45 I thought the standard xlogfile masked the separator. where did slex get its implementation? 03:45 bhaak: Message from Mandevil at 2018-06-10 15:38 EDT: Is it supposed to be possible to generate tree on top of stairs in Un? I have such an situation on the Aphrodite level. 03:45 It's also in use in 3.6.1 it seems 03:45 <@earlyaccessgorgon> !who 03:45 @earlyaccessgorgon: [hdf-us] Lymia [slex] 03:45 @earlyaccessgorgon: [hdf-eu] Raisse [nh343] Muad [sp] 03:45 @earlyaccessgorgon: [hdf-au] Grasshopper [nh361] Tangles [4k] 03:50 Successful artifact theft :D 03:50 I hope the mines > isn't on dlvl2 03:51 -!- Chris_ANG has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:57 Mandevil: tree on stairs can obviously happen, find an axe to cut it down (no, a pick-axe doesn't work as I have found out yesterday) 04:00 a wand of digging works as well 04:00 ... 04:00 "red stick" in an "ammo store" is dynomite isn't it 04:00 Let's not anger another shopkeep :D 04:01 * bhaak takes notes 04:10 bhaak: Not sure what's "obvious" on a tree on top of stairs. 04:10 bhaak: But thanks for the hint. 04:10 bhaak: I know about axe, but not aboud wand of digging. 04:10 about 04:11 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:11 "obvious" as in "obviously it can happen as it happened to you" :) 04:12 I'd say it shouldn't happen, but that's just me. 04:12 Trees are dungeon features? 04:12 don't be alarmed if the staircases disappear if you use the wand. they are still there, just not shown 04:13 Invisible stairs? 04:13 yeah, it shouldn't happen. 04:13 I guess trees cannot be teleported? 04:14 rather "the wand of digging code doesn't expects to remove a dungeon feature with another dungeon feature at that location" 04:14 I might just wait for an axe. 04:14 <@luxidream> bhaak: how come wands of fire don't destroy trees 04:15 Fire resistant wood, duh. 04:15 oh. no, they can't but they should. thinking about it, you should be able to teleport a sink as well, considering what a ring of teleportation does to a sink 04:16 by that logic you should be able to polymorph a sink with a poly wand 04:17 @luxidream the devteam didn't think of everything. 04:18 Like not putting field delimiter into item/monster names. 04:18 raisse\splat: it should, considering what a ring of polymorph does to a sink 04:19 Mandevil: I looked at the 3.6 code and there \t is considered. so it's a slex fuckup 04:19 Aha, ok 04:19 But you can still put in ':'? 04:20 I didn't expect otherwise, Pat wouldn't let something like this slip through. 04:21 How do you get lots of arrows when you can't #untrap 04:21 Longbow of Diana. 04:21 why can't you #untrap? 04:21 No hands 04:21 how do you use arrows when you have no hands? 04:21 Lymia is playing SLEX. Nuff said. 04:21 Mandevil: yes, ':' is allowed 04:21 ah right 04:22 bhaak: So my heuristics can still fail... 04:22 Might be a fork issue too 04:22 Mandevil: what is your heuristics? count the : and the \t? 04:22 Maybe this was patched in the past? 04:23 bhaak: Yes. 04:35 "squad fire elemental" oh hey another implemented EPI 04:39 -!- winny has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1] 04:39 Mandevil: it's the best you can do without configuring what separator each xlogfile uses. I mean, we are not handling live-or-death or financial data here, we can use a little leeway 04:39 -!- winny has joined #hardfought 04:41 that makes life much easier for this tourist! 04:42 bhaak: I would configure the separator, but there are some (at least one) which changes the separator in the middle of things. 04:44 xlogfile should probably really use JSON or something 04:44 but nethack is in C and from the 1980s :D 04:44 Gamedumps should use JSON. 04:44 xlogfile with simple record structure is fine IMO. 04:45 JSON libraries will handle actually serializing arbitary types properly 04:45 including potentially user controlled strings 04:45 -!- stenno\ito has joined #hardfought 04:46 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 04:46 Lymia: In C? 04:46 Lymia: I don't think you can do this very simply in C like you can do in higher level languages. 04:46 I hope there's a decent C json library at least :c 04:46 -!- Chris_ANG has joined #hardfought 04:46 Lymia: That's not just question of JSON libary. 04:47 Lymia: But overall, it should be doable. 04:47 Lymia: And I have toyed with the idea of attempting to writing a pach for that. 04:47 It could use an approach like those stream-based XML libraries 04:48 Decoder returns events, encoder takes events like "start array", etc 04:48 Yeah, something like that. 04:50 I didn't think hallucinating was this dangerous 04:50 ? 04:50 I apparently have cold resistance from... some unknown source 04:50 Maybe it was something I ate and didn't realize 05:03 I lost my pet :( 05:03 Hopefully not dead to that swarm of fire elementals 05:23 Mandevil: interesting, which one does change the separator? multiple versions sharing the same xlogfile with a newer one using tabs? 05:26 Fourk does it. 05:27 [hdf-us] [nh361] dizzylizzy (Arc Gno Fem Neu), 337 points, T:820, killed by a boulder 05:27 an archeologist got killed... by a rock 05:28 ironic... he could not save himself 05:31 that rock belongs into a museum! 05:32 idea... arc quest nemesis? dwayne THE ROCK johnson 05:33 dun dun DUNNN 05:34 the item the museum wants back is the Heart of the Rock, a gem/crystalball 05:39 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1] 05:40 -!- stenno\ito has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:42 -!- raisse\splat has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:48 [hdf-us] [slex] Lymia (Mah Wis Mal Cha) killed Jaken, the Small and Annoying Minion, on T:8932 05:49 @le?Jaken, the Small and Annoying Minion 05:49 Jaken, the Small and Annoying Minion (j) | Lvl: 10 | Diff: 16 | Spd: 4 | Res: fire sleep disintegrate petrification | Confers: nothing | MR: 10 | Generates: unique | AC: 7 | Attacks: 1d4 weapon physical, 1d1 touch physical, 1d4 non-contacting-beam fire, 1d4 non-contacting-beam physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: omnivore, nopoly, stalker, vegan 06:04 [hdf-us] [nh343] rebatela (Pri Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed greased fireproof +3 robe", on T:53301 06:04 -!- AmyBSOD\srn has joined #hardfought 06:07 [hdf-us] [nh343] rebatela (Pri Hum Mal Neu) wished for "2 blessed scroll of charging", on T:53467 06:08 [hdf-us] [nh343] rebatela (Pri Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed +3 silver dragon scale mail", on T:53468 06:11 -!- deki has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:13 bhaak/Mandevil: if the separator in slex's logfiles is causing an issue because it's different from the one used in other variants, feel free to tell me; I'm not opposed to changing it if it helps fix the "lol 11-conduct ascension in 33 turns" scoreboard exploit. 06:13 [hdf-us] [slex] Lymia (Mah Wis Mal Cha) killed Jack, on T:10695 06:19 AmyBSOD\srn: it's not the separator as such but that the separator isn't filtered/replaced when necessary. especially commit 01ee47d42 where you removed the munge code 06:19 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:20 * Pinkbeast scores an escape-the-dungeon, sigh 06:20 bhaak: oh hmm... don't remember why we removed the munge code but it was causing some sort of issue 06:21 if only I remembered why that was... 06:21 Sorry for ruining everything :( 06:21 Lymia: nah, the bug would have been there either way 06:25 -!- deki has joined #hardfought 06:25 [hdf-us] [nh343] rebatela (Pri Hum Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:53722 06:27 Amulet of Swimming won't save my inventory, will it 06:27 nope 06:27 and if it's made of rustable material, it can be destroyed by the water too, which is a Very Bad Thing(TM) 06:27 hmm, ascension.run doesn't count my hdf xnethack asc (in celestial disgrace) as an ascension 06:28 Unnless I'm missing something here isn't that because it's not an ascension? 06:29 it certainly isn't scored as one, got the 10% discount 06:29 that qualifier seems new to xnh tho, and the word ascended *is* technically there 06:30 Well 06:31 This run isn't going bad anymore at least 06:31 It's not going well either :D 06:31 killed by a kobold lord named Ascended <-- LOOPHOLE BABYYY 06:33 I would never expect a celestial disgrace to count as anything but an exasperating loss 06:33 [hdf-us] [nh343] rebatela (Pri Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 pair of speed boots", on T:53956 06:34 s'just, last-minute alignment changes in vanilla nethack are totes fine 06:34 and they DO count as ascensions for junethack 06:34 Sure. But they don't produce celestial disgrace. I feel I'm missing something here. 06:34 i think *i'm* the only person missing something 06:34 pretty sure you're spot on 06:35 Oh. 'When you ascend with a non-starting alignment, the end-of-game reason is "ascended (in dishonor)"' 06:35 yeah that 06:36 But that's not a celestial disgrace (although I would expect it to be scored like one and counted as a loss, given what the intention seems to be) 06:39 Lymia: of course xnh has vikeys, that's what I use all the time, I don't even have a numpad. 06:40 Junethack: New user Darip76 registered! https://junethack.net/user/Darip76 06:41 You are now wearing a wet towel around your anterior segment. 06:42 that's right you item-stealing upstair-warping unbalanced motherfucker from HELL! eat instakill! 06:42 Eat instakill> I bet it's sat at its keyboard complaining about how OP you are 06:43 now I have to find a way to unpolymorph though 06:44 dizzylizzy\ito: xnh doesn't have such a thing as "ascended (in celestial disgrace)". It has "ascended (in dishonor)", is that what you meant? 06:44 hundo percent, that's what I meant sorry 06:45 I attribute any stuff like that to naive parsing of the death field 06:45 do YOU count it as an ascension? 06:45 !tell AntiGulp holy hell is your lord of the foocubi a motherfucker, literally. How are you supposed to defeat him without abusing one of the instakills he's susceptible to? 06:45 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 06:45 to be clear, I consider that an ascension since you *did* obtain immortality, just it's a way of showing that you didn't stay true to the original god 06:46 ahh ok 06:46 i'll message the ascension.run folkses then 06:46 later haters :) 06:46 aosdict\ito: More plainly, is it a win? 06:46 Pinkbeast: Yes, I'm not changing what is considered a win or not. 06:46 Huh. That is not what I expected, but fair enough. 06:46 But it's not the high-scoring "super big win". 06:47 ^ above quote is from a real comment in the source :D 06:47 gotchagotcha 06:47 wtf why is the succubus called "Rika", what a weird name! she should be called Rita instead :P 06:48 I'm not sure what to make of that since I've always thought of NetHack games as having a score of 0 or 1 06:48 Pinkbeast: If I essentially defined using a hooa as not a win, then that would accomplish nothing except making everyone mad, so what's the point? 06:48 aosdict\ito: Remember I'm a Spork fan, that would _be_ the point (ha ha only serious) 06:49 By which I mean, the HOOA thing always struck me as a bit cheesy, making Astral easier than it should be (yeah, sometimes you luck out and Famine has the altar you wanted anyway), and perhaps not making a lot of sense. 06:49 Junethack: New user 200th registered! https://junethack.net/user/200th 06:49 well junethack counted dizzylizzy\ito's ascension as an ascension, and that's all that really matters, right? 06:50 I'm curious to know how aosdict\ito thinks especially since it's not what I expected they thought 06:50 also I'm wondering, if your anachrononono-nononono in dnethack ascens without saving the future, will junethack count it as the ascension it is? 06:51 I especially don't want to pull the rug out from other people such as dizzylizzy\ito right when it's a relatively new feature right before junethack. 06:51 imagine if that happened to AmyBSOD\srn 06:51 * AmyBSOD\srn will always consider a HoOA ascension as an ascension 06:51 I would never hear anything else out of her 06:52 aosdict\ito: yep :P I ascended as a chaotic samurai in fourk, jonadab would be bombarded with messages every day if it didn't get counted as an ascension :P 06:52 and there'd be at least two dozen messages mocking added to slex if it happened to me 06:53 Yabbut you do that anyway. :-P 06:53 * Lymia note to self: Add a won=1 flag to her variant if she starts one, to avoid any ambiguity 06:54 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 06:56 Pinkbeast: Anyway, there _is_ a subtler penalty: with a hooa ascension, you're unlikely to get the highest score (because your score gets multiplied by either 1.5, which is hard to do, or 1, instead of 2 for a regular asc) 06:56 relevant in jnh 06:56 aosdict\ito: Mmm, tho' as discussed I don't really believe in scores :-) 06:57 holy shit this soldier had vorpal blade, I'm very lucky I didn't get instakilled 06:58 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:18309 07:00 wtf how did Asmodeus wake up, does splicehack still have 3.6.x's aggravate spell bug??? I thought we've gotten past those days... guess not... 07:00 reminder to self: dig down immediately on Rodney's level 07:02 get off the upstair you lamer of a demon lord! 07:06 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 07:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 07:07 -!- elenmirie is now known as elenmirie\splat 07:10 is it variant paranoia or did AntiGulp increase the odds of a monster spawning with scrolls/wands of create monster? 07:11 also, here's another "fun" new feature of 3.6.x that makes Gehennom even better: mazes with invisible walls 07:11 like, what were they thinking??? 07:13 Wait 07:13 Did 3.6.x actually do that 07:14 yes, see my current splicehack game 07:14 [backscroll] Lymia you didnt ruin anything, its good to bring to light bugs like that (the scoreboard thing) 07:14 I'm exploring this maze and there are ā–‘ā–‘ā–‘ as corridors and literally blank tiles (that look like unexplored areas) as walls 07:15 Is this sh or 3.6.x that did it 07:15 3.6.x 07:16 https://i.imgur.com/rlOEeEv.png 07:16 Muad\ito good luck! 07:16 This doesn't look *so* bad? 07:16 Lymia: the walls literally look like unexplored areas, making it much harder to keep track of where you've explored! 07:16 aaah 07:16 I see 07:16 yea 07:16 that's bad 07:16 there could be the Vlad upstair on a tiny little square that wasn't in my lamp's light radius and I wouldn't know 07:16 honestly 07:17 The maze levels are... bleh 07:17 Those should be very rare if they exist at all, not a whole branch 07:18 I was seeing if mail still worked in variants :D 07:18 it does! 07:18 AmyBSOD\srn: Yeah, I'm not a fan of those. 07:18 NH 3.6.x mazes are better than they were before, at least 07:18 aosdict\ito: sadly I didn't survive in xnethack long enough to actually see your revamped Gehennom 07:18 Braid mazes are somewhat less horrid than the old perfect mazes. 07:19 (Is it bad if I wanna do variant work partly for map generator work :D) 07:19 Conveniently, my changes to xnh gehennom mean that all levels except Baalz aren't those yucky corridor mazes anymore :D 07:19 of course those stupid "marjids" can summon monsters and curse items! 07:19 as if nalfeshnees weren't already annoying enough... 07:19 Aren't those vanilla since 3.4.x? 07:19 Lymia: if you want to work on _only_ map generator stuff, I have a semi-active project to proof-of-concept level generators in python 07:20 not in python tho :D 07:21 In what way is black and gray mazes "hell" :D 07:22 Unexplored areas> well, kind of consistent with the way vanilla corridors are unwallified (which is also bad) 07:22 Wait, Amy, do you use autodig? 07:22 yes 07:22 ah 07:22 without it, things would be even more annoying! 07:22 ... doesn't everyone? 07:23 as it is, it's time-consuming enough to always have to switch back and forth between pick-axe and Excalibur if a monster appears 07:23 The Excalibur keeps making me think you're Valk :D 07:23 oh 07:23 So 07:23 Is it still perfect mazes without you pickaxing it? 07:23 YANI: if you're sufficiently strong, you can also dig with your bare hands, but it takes much longer 07:23 well level 36 has loops, so I guess not 07:24 wtf the elf-lord had a tsurugi 07:24 Dig with hands> http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Formicid :-) 07:24 those aren't randomly generated in vanilla... I guess this is changed here? 07:24 Pinkbeast: the Excalibur is because AmyBSOD\srn never plays anything except Samurai. 07:24 Or it's a bones file that had your quartifact, although who would drop it for monsters to pick up 07:25 aosdict\ito: OK but I'm not Lymia 07:25 agh 07:25 invisibilibiliblity 07:26 ooh 07:26 are you two-handing a pickaxe and Excalibur? 07:27 nah, I have a shield of reflection 07:27 So you're just playing fast 07:27 noted :D 07:27 also, Excalibur sadly has to be in the main hand in non-SLASH'EM :( 07:28 Is polytrap still dangerous at that dlvl? 07:29 not really, but I want to remove them anyway just in case 07:30 I could play much faster without this stupid lag 07:30 heh :D 07:30 my connection seems to be shaky again 07:30 If I connect to eu, it's laggy 100% of the time 07:33 Is Vlad still a scrub in this variant? 07:33 dunno, it's the first time I got this far in splicehack 07:34 3.6.x vampires are so boring, they're basically big fat sacks of extra hitpoints that take way too long to kill 07:34 "way too long" = 5 hits? 07:34 well, if they didn't have that "lol I'm a vampire bat first and once you kill that I'm a vampire with full health", they'd go down in 3! 07:38 yaaaaaawn this graveyard is absolutely filled with them! 07:38 Junethack: Achievement "Walk In The Park" unlocked by Luxidream! 07:38 i can see how it's way to long now 07:39 they're also literally zero threat to me 07:39 -!- raisse\splat has joined #hardfought 07:39 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse\splat] by ChanServ 07:39 funnily enough, if they transform into a vampire of their own will, as opposed to because I killed them, they'll then go down in one hit 07:42 btw 07:43 Amy 07:43 yes? 07:43 Why aren't bad eggs marked as M3_POKEMON in slex 07:43 oh :D 07:43 Pinkbeast: Formicids in Crawl dig with their mandibles. 07:43 I'll change that ;) 07:44 [hdf-us] [un] richards (Val Hum Fem Law), 9197 points, T:5086, killed by a gas cloud 07:44 orcus was apparently a scrub 07:44 of course the level below Orcus has to be Rodney! if Orcus casts aggravate here, things will get shitty 07:45 oh 07:45 he just went down the stairs :D 07:45 GAH 07:46 someone made the floors undiggable 07:46 it's now a roll of the dice whether I can get to the downstair without Rodney waking up 07:46 What's under that dlvl? 07:46 more of the wizards tower (at least in vanilla) 07:46 Why would you make it undiggable? 07:46 maybe it even is undiggable in vanilla, I don't know 07:47 but it means I have to stay far away from any spellcasters lest Rodney is woken 07:47 Can you not kill Rodney? 07:48 or would it just be a pain 07:48 it would be a pain because if I kill him, he'll respawn again and again for the rest of the game 07:48 ah 07:48 so if he does wake up, I have to get off the level without allowing him to follow 07:48 You don't plan on waking him anytime soon 07:48 SHIT, golden naga 07:49 phew 07:49 Don't call wands that 07:50 okay unless the Vlad upstair randomly spawned on Rodney's level, we're in the clear for now 08:08 Wait 08:08 That map doesn't look like a horrid mess :O 08:08 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:10 Lymia: which one? 42 in my game? yeah sometimes you get wide-corridor mazes, which are much more tolerable 08:10 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 08:10 I'm afraid Vlad's upstair really is on Rodney's level, though. 08:10 The 3x3 maze youre on 08:11 shit, Vlad's can really be from 36-40 it seems 08:11 so I must have missed it 08:11 oh well, gonna finish mapping Gehennom first 08:13 <[Demo][srn]> so as a wizard with mm spam as my main and pretty much only attack, how do I do amulet part? 08:13 <[Demo][srn]> in xnh 08:13 ais523: in your function as a vanilla dev, what's your stance on the "aggravate monster wakes Rodney and demon lords" bug? because it seems that at least splicehack is still plagued by it 08:14 didn't we fix that for 3.6.1? 08:14 ais523: Message from K2 at 2018-06-10 21:17 EDT: thanks for the heads up 08:14 <[Demo][srn]> Oh the monster spell? 08:14 at least in terms of inside vs. outside the tower 08:14 yeah I also thought so, but here in Splicehack, Asmodeus was woken up that way 08:15 right, because that wasn't inside vs. outside the tower 08:15 oh 08:15 so demon lords waking up that way is intentional? okay 08:15 seems to be 08:15 I wasn't involved in the change myself 08:15 but I wouldn't have had to handle the golden naga with extreme care on Rodney's level? 08:15 but the whole point of the agg monster spell is that the monsters are alerting other monsters on the level 08:15 it strikes me as weird that you're /complaining/ that a monster in Gehennom did something relevant ;-) 08:16 most players tend to complain that the monsters down there aren't relevant enough 08:16 ais523: the problem with vanilla gehennom is that the relevance is limited to the boss monsters, everything else is mind-numbingly boring 08:16 there are at least six problems with vanilla gehennom 08:17 And the solution has name ... SLEX. 08:17 splicehack's "solution" seems to be to add additional monsters that will literally fuck you up 08:17 boss monsters, that is 08:18 hmm, guessing: 1) mazes, 2) chaff monsters, 3) too long with too much filler, 4) not particularly flavorful terrain, 5) 6) ??? 08:18 yeah the # of pure maze levels could be halved and it literally wouldn't hurt gameplay at all 08:19 Doesn't SLEX have like 100 dlvls? 08:19 Mandevil: More than that. 08:19 especially since the demon lords all come rather early, so once you're past them you literally have no special levels in Gehennom at all anymore! 08:19 Like 260. 08:19 aosdict\ito: All of them uniquely interesting, right? 08:19 AmyBSOD\srn: well wizard towers and fake wizard towers... yeah. 08:20 Mandevil: you should ask Tariru, he played through the entire thing 4 consecutive times 08:20 I like how grunt puts Demogorgon as the very lowest special level, below even the fake towers. 08:20 in fact, I'm interested in his opinion on boring/interesting myself 08:20 He also did it in a streak. 08:21 <[Demo][srn]> does splice nerf demo? 08:27 [hdf-us] [nh361] knavery (Rog Orc Mal Cha) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:12327 08:32 yay vibrating square find! 08:35 <[Demo][srn]> same 08:35 <[Demo][srn]> but the problem is im screwed 08:39 the hell where is the vlad upstair 08:40 !tell AntiGulp please make it so that staircases covered by an item are highlighted! it's no fun if you have to _ < to find Vlad's stair because it was under a pile of rocks 08:40 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 08:42 [hdf-us] [slex] Lymia (Mah Wis Mal Cha), 321116 points, T:17882, killed by a monster (leocrotta) 08:42 rip Lymia :( 08:42 AmyBSOD\srn: The #terrain command is explicitly for this. 08:42 :( 08:43 <[Demo][srn]> man i got a good yendor zoo 08:43 <[Demo][srn]> full of burpers and stoners 08:43 <[Demo][srn]> conflict cleared it rapidly 08:44 I guess 08:44 General strategy 08:45 How do you find good armor earlygame in slex? So far, it seems shops works bet 08:45 best* 08:45 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:22471 08:45 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:22472 08:45 -!- stenno\ito has joined #hardfought 08:46 armor shops are IMHO the best shops in the game, at least in slex 08:48 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) performed the invocation, on T:22665 08:49 [hdf-us] [slex] Lymia (Mah Wis Fem Cha), 0 points, T:221, killed by a poisonous cloak 08:49 AmyBSOD\srn: I'd probably agree with you even in vanilla and (most if not all) variants. 08:49 :) 08:49 yeah, the chance of getting a comr or sor or gop or similar makes it worth it 08:50 I usually play Wizard, so 08:50 CoMR isn't my main concern, at least :D 08:50 -!- stenno\ito has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:50 Because at that stage of the game, 1) armor is easy to price-check for magic or enchanted gear, 2) easy to curse-test, 3) increases survivability a lot, 4) likely covers some gaps in your armor set such as gloves or boots even if there aren't any magic ones, 5) not bad odds of finding magic ones 08:51 oh and 6) the magic ones are largely useful from the beginning, and remain so for a while 08:51 -!- MiseryMyra has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:51 but the survivability increase is really the big one. 08:52 wait 08:52 vlad isn't a scrub? 08:52 they buffed his stupid covetous AI it seems 08:52 because covetous AI isn't at all broken in vanilla already :P 08:53 so many of 3.6.x's changes are just there to annoy the player... 08:53 Your monsters throw grey rocks at the player to screw them over. 08:54 finally killed the ! 08:54 ... is that why that floor is undiggable 08:54 well good thing it is, because it prevented him from playing that neener-neener game for 8 more levels 08:54 Lymia: in before "but I expect all other variants to be well balanced and straightforward" 08:55 ... and I guess you can't /oD a V 08:55 aosdict\ito: I expect slex to be well balanced too; if it isn't, I shall fix it 08:55 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:22850 08:55 [hdf-us] [4k] Stephanie (Tmasher) (Hea Hum Fem Neu), 7950 points, T:2944, killed by an ape 08:55 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 08:56 Mine's end is dangerous af in slex :( 08:56 Because apparently mobs use the grey stones on you 08:59 yeah, that can happen 08:59 I greatly toned down the chance of it though 08:59 oooh, wait 08:59 slex didn't make stone to flesh an unreasonable spell level? 08:59 :O 09:00 yeah you can turn those stupidstones into meatballs, be sure to put all valuable stone items away before you zap yourself though 09:01 I don't actually know what to do with the Mah quest reward either. I assume the intent is to go full spellspam mode, but :D 09:02 there's no obligation to use your quest artifact; if it's a shitty one, feel free to discard it 09:03 It's not exactly bad, it is a blob of very strong instrinsics but no weapon in the weapon slot, though. 09:04 Doesn't seem like armor shops are common in mines 09:04 so 09:04 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the invisible high priestess of Moloch, on T:23154 09:04 Maybe should go down dungeon first 09:06 <[Demo][srn]> i have no idea how im gonna do the plane of air 09:08 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:23170 09:08 [Demo][srn]: no ring of conflict? 09:12 u tension room ._. 09:12 get tame ponies and unihorns there! 09:13 it's on! 09:13 well shit... someone had the great idea to make it so that pits are generated periodically now... 09:13 this will be *ultra* annoying 09:14 I got two unicorns 09:14 unihorns* 09:14 3* 09:22 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) had Excalibur thrown at him by some watery tart, on T:24676 09:22 wha 09:22 ... I apparently forgot to pick up the blasted bell of opening 09:23 Lymia: what, the watery tart thing? haven't you seen that before? 09:23 Nope 09:24 !setmintc 5000 09:24 Mandevil: Min reported turncount for mandevil set to 5000 09:24 AmyBSOD\srn: I cancelled it once, that was happy fun time 09:24 Pinkbeast: ouch 09:24 P - a blessed +4 pick-axe {32}. 09:24 woah 09:24 [hdf-us] [slex] ssjs (Ama Ang Fem Law), 1032 points, T:1315, quit 09:25 too bad I don't have pickaxe skill available 09:25 I think you dig faster with an enchanted pickaxe, too 09:26 !who 09:26 bug_sniper: [hdf-us] Lymia [slex] ssjs [slex] Luxidream [spl] rebatela [nh343] Eleven [nh361] knavery [nh361] aosdictj [4k] Demo [xnh] 09:26 bug_sniper: [hdf-eu] elenmirie [nh4] blackshift [spl] AmyBSOD [spl] Raisse [nh343] damerell [nh343] Muad [sp] 09:26 bug_sniper: [hdf-au] Grasshopper [nh361] Tangles [4k] 09:26 woah 09:26 so many players 09:27 there seems to be some kind of tournament on :-) 09:27 Beholder should say how many. 09:27 AmyBSOD\srn, which button is travel? 09:27 _ 09:27 aha 09:27 Same as in vanilla. 09:28 I don't make a habit of using it, so 09:30 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:24635 09:31 [hdf-us] [slex] ssjs (Pal Nag Mal Law), 275 points, T:87, killed by a monster (leprechotta) 09:31 It should say "(that she left in the quest for %d turns)" if it's more than, like 1000 turns after finishing quest :) 09:31 epi: make the captchas in slex sometimes require you to type unicode 09:32 It's a nastytrap, it's already a EPI :( 09:33 <[Demo][srn]> requiring unicode? 09:33 what's the point of a captcha trap anyway? to prevent bot ascensions? 09:33 why is deafness a status effect? it's preventing my unihorn from curing actually important status conditions :( 09:34 Please enter name of Japan in hiragana: 09:34 yeah, that's even worse 09:34 slightly 09:34 ę—„ęœ¬ 09:34 that isn't hiragana 09:35 oh is it katakana? got it from wikipedia 09:35 you have to use google translate and then a converter 09:35 <@IceBox> tis kanji, yo 09:35 I always get that wrong 09:35 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) entered the Planes, on T:24921 09:35 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:24921 09:35 gogo Demo[srn]! 09:35 hiragana would be 恫恻悓 I think, but I'm not an expert so I might be wrong 09:36 <@IceBox> yep, hiragana is "simple" and curvy looking katakana is "simple" and blocky looking 09:36 Isn't nippon still in rare use? 09:36 Clearly it should roll a dice to determine which it actually means 09:36 :) 09:36 katakana would be ćƒ‹ćƒ›ćƒ³, but it isn't a loanword so doing that would be the equivalent of writing the name in italics 09:37 Enter the name of the current dalai-lama in tibetan script (or die in the attempt): :-) 09:37 Problem here is how to guard against pastes from Wikipedia. 09:37 Lymia: anyway, the watery tart message is from Monty Python and the Holy Grail 09:38 Mandevil: these questions would be /easier/ for a bot than a human 09:38 as it could just look up the expected answer from the source code 09:38 The point isn't bot ascensions, it's to murder players 09:38 It seems 09:38 :P 09:38 Lhamo Thondup but I don 09:39 't know how to do that in tibetan script 09:39 Tibetan script is notoriously difficult to master. 09:39 hi 09:39 Hello FIQ, Welcome to #hardfought 09:39 or Jetsun Jamphel Ngawang Lobsang Yeshe Tenzin Gyatso 09:39 REportedly worse than japanese writing system. 09:39 ais523: it's just yet another interface trap 09:39 it's not meant to protect against bots 09:40 [hdf-us] [slex] ssjs (Trc Ang Mal Cha), 1361 points, T:372, killed by a bullet 09:40 does slex have a trap that rot13s the controls, yet? there's a rot13 trap but I think it just affects messages and maybe the map 09:40 it should probably also force vikeys 09:40 Please don't give Amy ideas. 09:40 :D 09:40 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) genocided class ;, on T:25060 09:40 (EPI: after unifying monster and player mechanics, control monsters with the combat core of an ascension capable bot.) 09:41 Elenmirie had nice idea... have a one tile somewhere, totally undetectable by any means. Stepping on the tile would end the game instantly. 09:41 it is very easy to make monsters incredibly obnoxious to fight 09:42 Another SLEX idea: every turn, you have a chance to suddenly die. 09:42 Mandevil: the first time someone told me about NetHack I didn't know much about it (obviously), and they didn't describe it very well 09:42 but that doesn't neccessarily mean it's good design 09:42 so I got the impression that the vibrating square message would only come up once per game, at a random point 09:42 some monsters sure, but not everything 09:42 Vibrating square _massage_. 09:42 and also that the game didn't map for you so you had to remember where it was via connections and how you got there routing-wise 09:42 ... but an ascension-capable bot wouldn't be it, since _it_ assumes its opponents will rush up to it with cries of joy 09:42 see smart kobold 09:42 come to think of it, this is basically HyperRogue :-D 09:42 ais523: Lol. 09:42 for what I mean 09:43 You feel like you are being watched... Created Buer.Created Yeenoghu. Created the invisible Geryon.Created the invisible Dispater. Created the invisible Mephisto. Created Demogorgon. 09:43 ais523: Sounds like SLEX YANI. 09:43 sounds like someone forgot to remove their debug lines 09:43 HyperRogue's asc run equivalent is both a) very very clever and b) not very balanced 09:43 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:25142 09:44 It seems better when it tells you exactly what horribleness you're going to face. :D 09:44 @spl?buer 09:45 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed Famine, on T:25167 09:45 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed Famine, on T:25170 09:46 -!- stenno\ito has joined #hardfought 09:47 [hdf-us] [slex] ssjs (Che Ent Mal Law), 408 points, T:569, killed by a monster (cultist) 09:47 wait, amy 09:47 You don't have wishing id'd? 09:47 ais523: my father-in-law brought a Dutch computer magazine with an article about nethack on the occasion of the release of 3.6.0, and the writer of that article obviously didn't know that you can eat corpses without picking them up 09:47 I have, that was the wand I originally thought was wishing 09:47 ah 09:47 .. price ID? 09:47 I was wondering what's "maybe wishing" :D 09:48 yay I can walk the fire traps because none of the wands was sdd 09:48 die you motherfucking elder priest :P 09:49 (yes I know it's not really an elder priest) 09:49 Yeah, you're not dead. :p 09:50 Bags protect items from stone to flesh, right? 09:50 yes 09:50 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) averted death, on T:25235 09:51 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) averted death, on T:25237 09:51 -!- stenno\ito has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:51 yeah right - Mephisto, Demogorgon and Yeenoghu are on this level 09:51 Controlled tele to stairs? 09:51 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed Pestilence, on T:25240 09:51 oh 09:52 or that 09:52 :D 09:52 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) wished for "amulet of life saving", on T:25242 09:52 <@luxidream> lmao 09:52 Wait, cursed gain level works with the amulet? 09:52 in non-slex it does 09:52 <@luxidream> you have to phase into the yugioh quest 09:52 I'll be afk for a bit 09:52 !gt @ 09:52 <@luxidream> what bs is this 09:52 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) averted death, on T:25247 09:53 <[Demo][srn]> welp im fucked 09:53 <[Demo][srn]> theres only one way out 09:53 [hdf-us] [xnh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Law), 875726 points, T:25248, escaped (in celestial disgrace) 09:54 <[Demo][srn]> worth the same number of trophies 09:54 <[Demo][srn]> not worth an ascension 09:54 Lol :) 09:54 <@luxidream> what happened 09:54 <[Demo][srn]> i thought the first altar i hit was neutral 09:54 <[Demo][srn]> turns out it was lawfuL? 09:54 yugioh quest? 09:54 <[Demo][srn]> idk, thought it was at lawful altar 09:54 !whereis luxidream 09:54 FIQ: [hdf-us] luxidream is not currently playing on this server. 09:54 !whereis Luxidream 09:54 FIQ: [hdf-us] Luxidream is not currently playing on this server. 09:54 <[Demo][srn]> high priest of thoth ot ptah kept reaming me, not sure which one 09:54 <@luxidream> FIQ: I'm playing splice 09:54 <[Demo][srn]> he didnt like being teleported 09:55 Splice has a yugioh quest? 09:55 <@luxidream> cartomancer 09:55 <@luxidream> it's the yugioh 09:55 <@luxidream> role 09:55 -!- oh6 has joined #hardfought 09:55 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v oh6] by ChanServ 09:56 minetown shops are useless 09:57 <@luxidream> you get cards instead of scrolls 09:57 <@luxidream> and a minuscule chance of keeping scrolls after you use them 09:57 <@luxidream> otherwise it's tourist 09:58 do the cards do anything interesting? 09:58 or just regular scroll effects? 09:58 YANI: scroll of pot of greed 09:59 <[Demo][srn]> they are just renamed Scrolls 09:59 t - an uncursed +0 enchanted (of teleportitis) small shield (being worn) {12} 09:59 what a wonderful item 09:59 ok I'm back 10:00 <[Demo][srn]> hows the splice hack run? 10:00 -!- MiseryMyra has joined #hardfought 10:00 Lymia: teleportitis that can easily be turned on and off seems pretty useful, actually 10:00 well I'm on the ascension run, but terrified of trapdoors because Demogorgon lurks below 10:00 <[Demo][srn]> I fucked over my xnh run 10:01 In the long term, yeah 10:01 Not earlygame :D 10:01 AmyBSOD\srn: So if someone proposed removing helms of opposite alignment from the game, you'd be against that? 10:01 <[Demo][srn]> got to the altar I needed and everything 10:01 jonadab: I'd be against the removal of *any* item. 10:01 I see. 10:01 <[Demo][srn]> But then thought somehow it was a neutral altar and ended up going elsewhere 10:01 AmyBSOD\srn: Do you miss any of the items Fourk _did_ remove? 10:01 [Demo][srn]: huh, you're on astral already??? 10:02 jonadab: If you tell me what they are, I'll tell you that I miss every single one of them, yeah. 10:02 Including the scroll of amnesia :P 10:02 * Pinkbeast makes the remove-full-healing face 10:02 !who 10:02 K2: [hdf-us] ssjs [slex] Lymia [slex] Luxidream [spl] oh6 [nh343] rebatela [nh343] IceBox [fh] Eleven [nh361] richards [un] 10:02 K2: [hdf-eu] elenmirie [nh4] blackshift [spl] AmyBSOD [spl] Raisse [nh343] damerell [nh343] Muad [sp] Graznop [nh361] 10:02 K2: [hdf-au] Grasshopper [nh361] Tangles [4k] 10:02 Oh, I forgot about scroll of anmesia. 10:02 I'd be against removing or adding items without an idea why you're doing so personally :D 10:02 That one's actually significant, in principle. 10:02 !whereis Luxidream 10:02 K2: [hdf-us] Luxidream [spl]: (Car Hum Mal Law) T:30609 The Dungeons of Doom level: 21 10:03 "Reasons to not use test everything" is definitely a reason for items to exist 10:03 * Pinkbeast would say rather that the introduction of viable use testing would be brilliant 10:03 Lymia: Fourk still has reasons to not use-test everything. 10:03 Pinkbeast: !oFH works just fine in small quantities 10:03 also, use-testing of potions and wands are both entirely viable in NetHack 10:04 * jonadab does engrave-test wands. 10:04 Slex has some horridly nasty scrolls, but use testing is still *viable* (since they're not common) 10:04 It's just risky. 10:04 ais523: Provided you're fine with amnesia. 10:04 if I were trying to rework the ID game I'd make engrave-testing wands less useful somehow 10:04 Mandevil: I can't think of a potion or wand that causes amnesia in vanilla 10:04 Mandevil: there's no potion of amnesia except in Lethe variants. 10:04 Ah. 10:04 ?oPoly is pretty bad 10:04 Sorry. 10:04 I missed that. 10:04 Er 10:05 !oPoly 10:05 Yes, wand/potions are fine to use test. 10:05 Yes, polymorph is the most dangerous potion. 10:05 ais523: Wands, sort of (you use them in a special way); potions, I disagree, because while it works in a sense, it wastes resources without really offering a benefit, partly because of the way there are few good immediate-buff potions but almost every potion is a long-term resource. 10:05 And yes, the _real_ reason to not use-identify potions is that it wastes most of them. 10:05 And they're not a high-priority to ID early. 10:06 Because they're most useful when aggregated. 10:06 ... and also you know semi-infinite scroll ID is coming later 10:06 (And unsafe to carry in open inventory past about level six or seven.) 10:06 Pinkbeast: most top players will just blank all unIDed potions 10:06 ais523: Nerf wand engraving by making cold, sleep, and death not give messages? (EPI?) 10:07 (So you can't really use them as an emergency item in the early game.) 10:07 (I do wonder what Amy'd think of the kind of variant I'd make :P) 10:07 Is wand engraving such a huge problem? 10:07 ais523: ... er? Surely only once you've IDed all the useful ones, which implies you've IDed nearly all of them. 10:07 jonadab: the most /obvious/ nerf is to make engraving with /oW waste the charge with no message 10:07 They're already easy enough to use test 10:07 Pinkbeast: nope 10:07 aosdict\ito: The most important wands to identify are fire, lightning, digging. 10:07 if the potion hasn't naturally IDed itself yet by a monster using it, you blank it 10:08 jonadab: Only with 3.4.3 E mechanics, really... 10:08 All the wands you care about, you can ID by zapping at a monster 10:08 and if it has, you probably blank it anyway 10:08 aosdict\ito: Oh, hmm. Maybe. 10:08 aosdict\ito: I think with 3.6.1 too, though. 10:08 Just not 3.6.0, obviously. 10:08 [backscroll] I dislike the term "teleportitis", it seems like a medical term referring to inflammation 10:08 but it's way too widespread 10:08 "inflammation of the far door" 10:09 The door is inflamed. The door bursts out of its frame! 10:09 ais523: Thinking. Mmm. Indeed, monsters do drink most of the ones you care about so I guess one could keep track and just start diluting once they've all turned up, although (being far from a top player) it does seem a bit of a needless optimisation with infinite scroll-ID, yeah I know some variants don't have that 10:10 the point is that the potions are likely to be useless once you ID them, whereas the holy water is useful right awawy 10:11 I see what you're getting at, but I think I would expect by the time I know _every_ useful potion, I also know a sufficient number of junk potions to get a holy water supply for now 10:11 !who 10:11 bug_sniper: [hdf-us] ssjs [slex] Lymia [slex] Luxidream [spl] oh6 [nh343] rebatela [nh343] IceBox [fh] kingcitrus [nh361] richards [un] 10:11 bug_sniper: [hdf-eu] elenmirie [nh4] blackshift [spl] AmyBSOD [spl] Raisse [nh343] damerell [nh343] Graznop [nh361] 10:11 bug_sniper: [hdf-au] Grasshopper [nh361] Tangles [4k] 10:12 Especially unihorn testing will both weed out a few useless ones and start the water supply 10:12 !tell AntiGulp Your idea with the demon lords on vibrating square might be nice, but 1. you forgot to remove the debug lines that tell the player who got summoned and 2. half of them were on the VS level itself, meaning you either use cursed gain level or get overwhelmed by them. 10:12 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 10:13 Why a /oC named Asmodeus? 10:13 so that I know Asmodeus used up most of the charges 10:13 <[Demo][srn]> no I already lost 10:14 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) made his first wish - "uncursed fixed greased magic marker", on T:31668 10:14 Pinkbeast: I unihorn test when I'm not playing fast 10:14 [Demo][srn]: whaaaaaaaaaaat :( rip 10:14 <[Demo][srn]> I literally went to the right altar, thought it was the wrong one, and ended up finding the wrong altar 10:14 when I am, a nice guideline I've found is "quaff immediately if you know what it is and it's useful, otherwise leave it behind", although some potions (like full healing) are worth taking with you 10:15 <[Demo][srn]> and dying to the high priest there like 4 times cause my dumb ass tried to teleport him 10:16 <[Demo][srn]> *somehow* i thought the lawful altar was a neutral altar 10:16 <[Demo][srn]> i have no clue how 10:16 <[Demo][srn]> or why 10:17 I like splicehack's addition of dipping in acid will corrode a corrodeable item. 10:17 <[Demo][srn]> and im not sure what im supposed to learn from this failure 10:17 Why can't intelligent pets just tell you where the > is :( 10:17 epi: attacking a priest of moloch should cause a deadly lightning bolt to strike you even if it starts out hostile 10:17 Demo[srn]: to pay attention? :-p 10:18 <[Demo][srn]> i did 10:18 <[Demo][srn]> i was certain that altar was neutral 10:18 <[Demo][srn]> maybe there were two neutral altars? 10:19 this is bullshit, death rays miss way too often 10:19 on astral? 10:19 * raisse\splat has a vision of a player monster converting an altar with a handy purple worm corpse 10:19 <[Demo][srn]> yeah the first one i went to was neutral so i left it and then i got to the second one barely alive cause i tried to teleport a horde of whtie @ that happened to include the high priest 10:19 <[Demo][srn]> so i was all helmed up and i check the altar and what, it was neutral too? 10:19 I broke a wand of teleport that I thought was empty next to the high priest of ptah 10:20 so he killed me 10:20 <[Demo][srn]> ptah is lawful, yes? 10:20 AmyBSOD\srn: There's probably some more intelligent way to handle ray hits or misses overall, AC seems like a weird metric to use. 10:20 yes 10:20 and I was chaotic, being an orc 10:20 aosdict\ito: AC simulates EV in NetHack. 10:20 well actually a EV/Def split like has been discussed would handle that 10:20 <[Demo][srn]> doesnt dex increase wand tohit? 10:21 [Demo][srn]: I don't think so, monsters don't have dex 10:21 <[Demo][srn]> no i mean like when you zap shit 10:22 how do you split stacks in 3.6.x? 10:23 I want to split these 9 elven arrows to have dummies that catch the stuuuuuuupid curse items spell 10:23 aosdict\ito: ^^ 10:23 AmyBSOD\srn: #adjust with a count 10:23 I forget where you put the count 10:23 #adjust 1n 10:23 it's either before the #adjust or before one of the inventory letters 10:23 doesn't seem to work 10:23 #adjust, 2d, e 10:23 ah now it works, thanks 10:24 there was that bug recently where you could get two stacks on the same inv letter >.> 10:24 <[Demo][srn]> neato 10:24 I reported it and aosdict\ito fixed it, worse luck 10:24 I should have kept it to myself :-) 10:25 xnethack-specific, or can you do it in vanilla? 10:25 you used to be able to get two stacks on # in vanilla 10:25 no, this was the ordinary letter 10:25 by throwing with a count 10:25 no, wielding with a count 10:25 note that doubling up on letters won't let you fit more items into your inventory, so it's mostly just a way of showing off rather than an exploit 10:25 w1a would wield one dagger and leave the other daggers also in the a slot 10:25 and you could still throw the other 'a' daggers! 10:26 <[Demo][srn]> Grunt, nh4, fh, or 3.6.1 next? 10:27 U - a +0 enchanted (of speed) pair of light footwear (being worn) {2} 10:27 oh hey 10:27 ghetto speed boots 10:27 [Demo][srn] go for grunt 10:27 Qa, w1a, fl = put all your dagger s in the a slot, wield one of them (and the rest stays quivered, but both the wielded and the quivered daggers are on a) 10:27 grunt ascensions will be highly regarded 10:27 and then throw them in a direction and only those in the quiver get thrown 10:30 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:33504 10:31 <@luxidream> beep beep 10:31 aosdict\ito watched your grunthack game. then you parked it. sad face ;) 10:32 I haaaaaaaaate 3.6.x 10:32 @4k?lord surtur 10:32 Lord Surtur (H) | Lvl: 15 | Diff: 0 | Spd: 12 | Res: fire petrification | Confers: fire | MR: 50 | Generates: unique | AC: 2 | Attacks: 2d10 weapon physical, 2d10 weapon physical, 2d6 claw amulet steal | Alignment: 12 | Flags: omnivore, nopoly, stalker, covetous, infravisible 10:33 <[Demo][srn]> how aren't you gonna die? 10:33 <[Demo][srn]> also are the arrows curse bait? 10:34 did I have any watchers? I'm back in the game now 10:34 AmyBSOD\srn, what happened? 10:34 well, interface screw that I had to fix via msgtype 10:34 (insert torrents of swear words here) 10:34 <[Demo][srn]> watching on phone 10:35 aosdict\ito: I hope xnethack fixes that: when applying a stethoscope and you're deaf, you get a message and no direction prompt, which means you waste a turn due to muscle memory (baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad) 10:36 <[Demo][srn]> it doesn't 10:36 <[Demo][srn]> it's awful 10:36 <[Demo][srn]> I've nearly died cause of it 10:36 well at least msgtype lets me fix it 10:36 <[Demo][srn]> good 10:36 I have to remember to not stethoscope air elementals from the inside while deaf 10:36 What makes you deaf anyway? 10:36 <[Demo][srn]> I've never done air without lev or flying 10:36 <[Demo][srn]> lightning 10:36 <[Demo][srn]> on air 10:36 ah 10:36 <[Demo][srn]> or magic traps 10:37 lol the air elemental lost to that vortex! 10:37 Junethack: New user MiseryMyra registered! https://junethack.net/user/MiseryMyra 10:38 yay one of my unIDed boots was levitation after all 10:38 wanted to wait until I'm inside a vortex to be able to test them without being interrupted all the damn time 10:38 slex wine cellar still contains no bad grey stones, right? 10:39 well, unless some of them are random 10:39 even vanilla wine cellar can generate them randomly, they just aren't guaranteed 10:42 <[Demo][srn]> amy you stumbled into the planes pretty unprepared 10:43 What's the green #s? 10:43 stinking clouds 10:43 ah 10:43 <[Demo][srn]> i think they are good 10:43 Is that new to 3.6.x or this variant 10:43 <[Demo][srn]> 3.6.x 10:45 <[Demo][srn]> why are there velociraptors on the plane of water? 10:45 <[Demo][srn]> why not air? 10:46 goddamn marjids 10:46 conflict ftw? 10:46 <[Demo][srn]> what are they and what do they do? 10:46 they cast spells 10:46 <[Demo][srn]> oh 10:46 <[Demo][srn]> so like nalfs of the sea? 10:46 yep 10:47 because clearly what vanilla needs is more summonstormers 10:47 <[Demo][srn]> yeah idk why so many variants make so many bad choices 10:47 <[Demo][srn]> or rather why they are tolerated by the players 10:48 -!- raisse\splat has quit [Quit: Suddenly, Raisse disappears out of sight.] 10:49 -!- raisse\splat has joined #hardfought 10:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse\splat] by ChanServ 10:49 FIQ: You should invite me to your clan 10:50 <[Demo][srn]> why did antigulp make water worse 10:50 <[Demo][srn]> its already awful why add summonstormers? 10:51 <[Demo][srn]> is 3.6.x astral different from 3.4.3? 10:51 yes 10:51 most importantly, the riders are much more aggressive 10:51 <[Demo][srn]> is the bottom part bigger and has more stuff? 10:51 <[Demo][srn]> or is it just me? 10:52 they move monsters out of the way so you can't hide behind the ants 10:52 Demo[srn]: one possible layout has a larger bottom area yes 10:52 <[Demo][srn]> theres more than one layout? 10:53 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Astral_Plane 10:53 both maps shown 10:53 [hdf-us] [slex] Lymia (Mah Wis Fem Cha) killed the invisible Ruggo the Gnome King, on T:6531 10:53 <[Demo][srn]> whyyy 10:53 <[Demo][srn]> why is that a thing 10:53 because? 10:54 <[Demo][srn]> what warranted this change? 10:54 the throne gave up after one #sit 10:54 I don't know, I'm not in the dev team 10:54 <[Demo][srn]> why is the dev team taken seriously? 10:55 They were infected by the variant devs :^) 10:55 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) had Cleaver bestowed upon her by Crom, on T:29131 10:55 -!- rebatela has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:56 <[Demo][srn]> ouch 10:56 <[Demo][srn]> that helm of brilliance 10:56 MiseryMyra: junethack username? 10:56 <[Demo][srn]> lucky 10:56 MiseryMyra 10:56 invited 10:56 you can also join ##OrderOfTheCockatrice-nethack 10:57 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Medusa, on T:38179 10:57 <[Demo][srn]> quality quiver 10:57 Wait, did she find a helmet of opposite alignment 10:57 Susanoo is the chaotic god, isn't she 10:58 <[Demo][srn]> no she found the altar 10:58 ah 10:58 I mighta misraed 10:58 misread* 10:58 <[Demo][srn]> yey! 10:58 <[Demo][srn]> congrats 10:58 <[Demo][srn]> !gt srn 10:58 god I'm trembling 10:59 :D 10:59 I should run a 3.4.x game so I can actually ascend at least once :( 10:59 sorry for all the others I forgot, I only had 9 arrows ;) 10:59 congrats Amy! 10:59 Lymia: that's what I'm doing now :-) 10:59 Lymia: but tourist so it's hard anyway (at least to get started) 10:59 congrats AmyBSOD\srn! 10:59 thanks guys and girls! ā™„ā™„ā™„ā™„ā™„ā™„ā™„ free hearts for everyone today! ā™„ā™„ā™„ā™„ā™„ā™„ā™„ 11:00 <[Demo][srn]> what variant comes next? 11:00 not sure 11:00 maybe dnethack 11:00 [hdf-us] [gh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 81261 points, T:18425, quit 11:00 gz AmyBSOD\srn 11:00 thx! 11:02 wha 11:02 I stone to fleshed a boulder and got a meatball? :( 11:02 yeah slex changed that, you only get the huge chunk occasionally 11:03 rude 11:03 5% chance per boulder 11:03 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) wished for "a blessed greased +3 elven leather helm", on T:40099 11:03 good game 11:04 My slex run has not gone horribly wrong yet 11:04 !whereis icebox 11:04 FIQ: [hdf-us] IceBox [fh]: (Val Hum Fem Cha) T:40106 The Dungeons of Doom level: 29 11:04 I hope this continues :D 11:04 also 11:04 nice patch idea: don't allow monsters to curse bags of holding so that we don't see people putting holy water into a sack like in that last dumpfile 11:04 pair of lead gloves - This is a piece of armor. Color: gray. Material: platinum. 11:04 lol 11:04 <[Demo][srn]> Amy u know how dnh samurai works, right? 11:04 any heavy grey metal is the same, apparently 11:05 [Demo][srn]: not really, I'll use the same kamikaze strategy that I always use with samurai 11:05 <[Demo][srn]> females start with shit weps 11:05 <[Demo][srn]> males start with normal 11:05 whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat 11:05 genderism, transmisogyny bla bla bla I'll start a tumblr blog about that now :P (just kidding!) 11:05 <[Demo][srn]> do you know what the sword of the deeps is? 11:05 nope 11:06 gotta admit I have next to no knowledge about dnh artifacts, apart from the fact that you always wish for premium heart and the tie-dye shirt 11:06 <[Demo][srn]> so on the neutral quest in a deep one throne room there's a cursed +12 long sword 11:06 <[Demo][srn]> that's it's name 11:06 maybe huge chunks of meat should rot like corpses instead of being so hard to find 11:06 Junethack: AmyBSOD ascended a game of SpliceHack on eu.hardfought.org! 11:06 that would reflect reality better 11:06 <[Demo][srn]> at xlvl 30 you can rename it some funny asian thing and it becomes an op arti 11:07 congrats AmyBSOD\srn! 11:07 Being a +12 long sword isn't already OP? :D 11:07 bug_sniper: I guess it would make sense (and meatballs too) 11:08 wow I also got the fastest turncount ascension 11:08 <[Demo][srn]> not by dnh standards 11:10 !tell AntiGulp Since I don't want to only bitch at you constantly, I hereby want to thank you for making Splicehack. I just ascended it. While I don't agree with a bunch of your changes, I absolutely appreciate that you continue working on it. Keep up the good work, I'm looking forward to see 0.32! :) 11:10 Will do, AmyBSOD\srn! 11:10 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased wand of polymorph", on T:38864 11:11 [hdf-us] [xnh] MiseryMyra (Val Hum Fem Law), 1107 points, T:2048, killed by an acidic corpse 11:12 I totally meant to do that 11:13 okay, thunderstorm rolling into my area, will be off for a while! good luck guys, and may the RNG be with you in all your games! :) 11:13 -!- AmyBSOD\srn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:13 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) polymorphed his first object, on T:38914 11:17 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) wished for "blessed ring of teleport control", on T:40585 11:18 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) wished for "blessed +3 ring of protection", on T:40585 11:22 I see there have been a few changes to xNetHack since I last played 11:23 no gameplay changes since june, except a minor one (=oRegen auto-ids) 11:24 but it's june now 11:26 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a xorn, on T:40366 11:27 https://i.imgur.com/7zAfz5U.png 11:27 ... oh 11:32 [hdf-us] [xnh] MiseryMyra (Val Hum Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:1744 11:33 [hdf-us] [xnh] MiseryMyra (Val Hum Fem Law), 1747 points, T:1786, killed by a watchman, while praying 11:33 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of charging", on T:40847 11:35 <[Demo][srn]> !who 11:35 [Demo][srn]: [hdf-us] Lymia [slex] Luxidream [spl] IceBox [fh] amelie [nh361] hypnotist [nh361] knavery [nh361] Eleven [nh361] 11:35 [Demo][srn]: [hdf-eu] elenmirie [nh4] Raisse [nh343] damerell [nh343] Muad [sp] Graznop [nh361] 11:35 [Demo][srn]: [hdf-au] attie [nh343] Grasshopper [nh361] Tangles [4k] 11:36 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Dal Zethire, on T:42311 11:37 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:42321 11:39 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 86435 points, T:25704, killed by a gold golem, while frozen by a monster's gaze 11:40 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 115 points, T:234, killed by a boulder 11:42 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 11:43 <@luxidream> !tell AntiGulp is it intended behaviour that you're forced to phase into the cartomancer quest 11:43 Will do, @luxidream! 11:47 jonadab: can't name items on the floor in fourk? am I going to have to name some item "GARVEN DEH = scare monster"? 11:48 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 1226 points, T:1961, killed by a rabid rat 11:57 -!- raisse\splat has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:57 Oh, just give me a full ID, NetHack 11:59 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) wished for "blessed ring of levitation", on T:41298 12:07 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 12:08 [hdf-us] [slex] Lymia (Mah Wis Fem Cha), 122886 points, T:12609, killed by a monster (pile of creeping gold coins), while praying unsuccessfully 12:09 * Lymia sigh 12:09 Didn't approach that room carefully enough 12:09 I shouldn't have died there :c 12:13 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) wished for "blessed amulet of life saving", on T:41868 12:17 jonadab: now I found a loadstone on the ground, is there *any* way to name it so I can recognize another one? 12:18 C? :P 12:18 aosdict\ito: since you asked jonadab, I assume you are playing 4k 12:18 in that case, you can name by appearance 12:20 !players 12:20 K2: [hdf-us] rebatela [nh343] oh6 [nh343] IceBox [fh] hypnotist [nh361] knavery [nh361] amelie [nh361] hothraxxa [un] k2 [un] aosdictj [4k] 12:20 K2: [hdf-eu] elenmirie [nh4] blackshift [slex] damerell [nh343] Raisse [nh343] 12:20 K2: [hdf-au] Grasshopper [nh361] 12:20 -!- raisse\splat has joined #hardfought 12:20 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse\splat] by ChanServ 12:21 FIQ: how do I know the appearance, it's just "gray stone", there are four of them 12:21 also how do I name by appearance 12:21 oh found it 12:22 trial and error 12:22 gray stones don't show up in the name by appearance list? 12:23 no * do 12:25 This tengu corpse tastes terrible! You finish eating the tengu corpse. You feel very jumpy. 12:25 this will not end well 12:28 aosdict\ito: It's NH4-based. You can #name any item in the game by appearance, whether you've seen it or not. 12:28 aosdict\ito: Also, there's a shortcut for any recently broken item. 12:29 In the #name menu. 12:29 jonadab: Ok, that clears up my scare monster woes, but as for the loadstone, I see no GEM_CLASS objects in the "Name an item type by appearance" menu. 12:29 Right, gray stone is a special case, since four items share the same appearance exactly. 12:30 So, there's no way to type-name this loadstone short of picking it up? 12:30 I don't think so. 12:30 Ugh. 12:31 FR: name item on the floor. 12:32 aosdict\ito: ah 12:32 sorry then 12:32 aosdict\ito: That would trivialize loadstones in a probably-undesirable way. 12:32 jonadab: How so? 12:32 They're already trivial 12:32 I have identified this stone as a loadstone via kick-test. 12:33 nobody sane picks up random gray stones without kicking them 12:33 They're sometimes trivial, out in the open where you can kick, yes. 12:33 But sometimes they also occur e.g. in containers. 12:33 it just means some stones cannot be picke dup because they're in corners 12:33 but now, if I find a gray stone in a box or something, I can't be safe taking it out 12:33 however, if I took the plunge here and now and picked up *this* one, and then remove cursed or whatever, I would recognize future loadstones in boxes 12:34 being able to id them without picking them up very very very rarely helps, the case where you know of a loadstone, didn't pick it up, but later find a stone in a box 12:34 True. 12:34 Tha'ts a trade-off. 12:34 Yeah, but it makes absolutely no sense. 12:34 <@Tone\ootc> That's happened to me in both of my last two games I think 12:34 My character can clearly look at the stone on the ground, and can tell its type apart from other gray stones. 12:34 <@Tone\ootc> 361 though so I could name them on the floor 12:34 Hmm. 12:35 But the interface just doesn't provide a way for me to name that type for my own reference. 12:35 Short of picking it up, which is a trap. 12:35 solution: gray stone/grayish stone/grey stone/greyish stone 12:35 If it were simply a question of being able to tell different ones apart easily and learning which is which by looking at them, IMO, then they should have distinct (but shuffled) appearances. 12:36 They were clearly given the same name on purpose. 12:36 <@luxidream> @?spl lord of the foocubi 12:36 No such monster. 12:36 Dunno. 12:36 Muad\ito: grey stone, small rock, dark pebble 12:37 I'm not entirely sure I like loadstones as a mechanic at all, tbh. But I'm also not entirely sure I want to nerf them that hard. Which is... inconsistent of me, I guess. 12:37 Well, if you were going to make that philosophy consistent, then you would make all individual gray stones ignore oc_name_known or oc_descr - whenever you find a new gray stone, you need to identify it (directly or indirectly) to see what it is. 12:37 <@luxidream> @?sp lord of the foocubi 12:37 No such monster. 12:37 @luxidream pinobot doesn't have splice monsters yet 12:37 pinobot doesnt track splicehack nor xnethack 12:37 too new 12:37 K2: well I don't have any new monsters :D 12:38 <@luxidream> I need to figure out how to beat this guy D: 12:38 did you adjust any? 12:38 so many variants to track 12:38 only colors and letters, I think, not stats 12:38 @luxidream wand of death? 12:38 <@luxidream> isn't this thing a demon 12:38 or potion of paralyze 12:39 i think hothraxxa said he killed it with /oD 12:39 yea but why is reddit down 12:39 "The crossbow grows roots" - wha? 12:39 <@luxidream> alright 12:39 that's the demon that killed my promising splicehack game, be careful 12:40 <@luxidream> how much does bob steal per round 12:40 bob can stun you, so multiple potentially 12:40 I'm pretty sure the fact that it steals is a bug anyway 12:40 due to antigulp confusing AD_SEDU and AD_SSEX 12:41 hah 12:41 SSEX is slutty sex? 12:41 maybe leave it as is 12:41 bob is a real challenge 12:41 zid: a very pointed "succubus seduction extended" 12:41 SSEX is foocubus seduction; SEDU is nymph charming. 12:41 Yes, it's confusing. 12:42 <@luxidream> the stun is from it taking off your clothes right? 12:42 <@luxidream> it doesn't seem to have a stunning attack 12:42 bob the pervert? 12:42 SSEX came later, and SSEX attacks default to SEDU if the SEDUCE compile time option is turned off (for what, I dunno, maybe for a server of 11 year olds?) 12:44 zid: bob can be tanya or sally or whatever also 12:44 multisexual 12:44 ;) 12:45 or 'gender fluid' I guess is the term used today 12:45 <@luxidream> the changelog doesn't say anything about a scare monster nerf 12:45 <@luxidream> against uniques 13:01 [Lymia the Schoolkid] St4 Dx4 Co6 In9 Wi15 Ch14 MahWisMalCha+X S0 13:01 Let's take a bet 13:01 How long until something str drains me to 3 and I die horribly 13:01 :D 13:07 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) wished for "2 blessed fixed greased scrolls of genocide", on T:44519 13:07 <@luxidream> oh 13:07 -!- raisse\splat has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:07 <@luxidream> forbidden card = genocide 13:08 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) performed his first genocide (class L), on T:44522 13:08 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) genocided class h, on T:44522 13:08 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) genocided class R, on T:44524 13:08 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) genocided class ;, on T:44525 13:22 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased spellbook of magic missile", on T:45846 13:26 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) entered Gehennom, on T:45907 13:29 blessed gain ability increases only a single stat in unnethack? this seems wrong 13:30 that's by design 13:30 blessed gain ability increases a single stat that can be increased 13:30 what does uncursed do? 13:30 Probably decides which stat to increase, and only increases it if it's not maxed? 13:30 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed the invisible Asmodeus, on T:46306 13:31 jonadab: the difference being...? 13:31 The obvious middle ground (between vanilla and un on this issue) is to let the player pick which one stat to increase. 13:31 uncursed tries a few times to increase a stat and then gives up, if it can't find one 13:31 hothraxxa: What happens if most of your stats are maxed already, but you care about one that's not. 13:31 none of my stats are anywhere near max 13:32 Is variant design philosophy nowadays "If it's useful, nerf it"? 13:32 Gain ability was never an issue, was it 13:32 ._. 13:32 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed the invisible Baalzebub, on T:46460 13:32 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Juiblex, on T:46465 13:33 i started with ch: 8. i sat one a throne and got knocked back to 3. i drank blessed restore ability and only went back to 6. blessed gain ability chose to make that 7 13:33 YASI: uncursed gain ability _exercises_ all of your stats; blessed exercises them all and increases one of them, chosen at random. Cursed abuses them all and drains one. 13:33 I think I shouldn't be accountable for code I wrote 10 years ago 13:33 oh you're yellah eh? 13:34 man up! own yer sins 13:34 I don't consider my gain abilities nerf a sin :) 13:35 the jury is still out on the color alchemy though 13:36 [hdf-us] [dnh] monstergrin (Ana Elf Fem Cha) killed Cerberus, on T:12643 13:36 we hates colour alchemy 13:36 in my game none of the desirable potions can be alchemized 13:36 [hdf-us] [dnh] Tmasher (Con Bat Mal Cha), 69 points, T:116, killed by a sewer rat 13:38 -!- raisse\splat has joined #hardfought 13:38 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse\splat] by ChanServ 13:38 generally I don't like nerfing things 13:38 because it annoys people and myself 13:39 it seems common to block successful (and clever) strategies just because they succeed 13:40 i think not enough consideration is given to whether the such nerfing makes the game less enjoyable 13:42 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Orcus, on T:47121 13:42 also, i think developers lose sight of the abilities and strategies of the average player and try to make the game challenging for the most successful players 13:43 the average players hardly uses potion of gain ability 13:43 so nerfing it helps how? 13:43 I dunno what variant you're thinking of, Spork being long ago and the only one that really tried to be hard (and quite rightly) 13:43 -!- Menche has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43 really? let me introduce you to grunthack 13:44 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 5704 points, T:4944, killed by a tengu 13:44 <@luxidream> what's the difference between uncursed and blessed in un 13:44 <@luxidream> they seem to do the same thing 13:44 grunthack had other goals. making it harder was "just" a side effect 13:44 i've played a lot of variants a fair amount, and all of them have examples of what i just said 13:44 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (class L), on T:37958 13:44 unicorn horns being a prime example 13:44 @luxidream blessed will find a stat to increase if there is one. uncursed might not. 13:45 you can;t sya unoihorns aren't used by the average player 13:45 you can't say i can type either 13:45 I am seriously tempted to attempt a variant on my own, at this point. :D 13:45 And hopefully do things right. 13:45 @luxidream I won't claim that this is the best possible change to gain ability. but blessed gain ability is ridiculous 13:46 lymia: fiq hack is the only variant that is significantly different in philosophy, unless you count slex 13:46 vanilla unicorn horns make gain ability almost useless. quaff one or two blessed potions of gain ability and then unihorn yourself for any stat loss 13:46 well there's dnethack. i have no idea what that is 13:46 <@luxidream> what if blessed gain ability raised a stat of your choice by one point 13:46 bhaak: make restore ability almost useless? 13:46 bhaak: itym restore ability 13:47 oh, right. it's so useless, I even forgot it exists 13:47 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 66 points, T:4, killed by a boulder 13:48 slex nerfs unihorn attribute recovery, and, unfortunately, it makes attribute loss too nasty. 13:48 I'm not keen on unihorn limitations not because they're not inherently a good idea but because then the exercise mechanics introduce a lot of boring-but-optimal things to do 13:48 The best idea, really, might actually be putting unihorns on charges. 13:48 Lymia: There's a lot of unicorns to murder :-/ 13:49 Eh, adjust unicorn spawn rate or unihorn charges until balanced :D 13:50 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:47809 13:50 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:47815 13:50 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 451 points, T:915, killed by a giant bat 13:50 FWIW I don't have the answer here, I think all of "unihorns too good", "if unihorns nerfed, exercising means a huge lot of makework", "pity to just remove exercise" 13:50 removing the potion of restore ability would make more sense (I'm not keen anyway on effects that exists as potions and spells). collapse restore and gain ability into one potion and give blessed and uncursed some sensible effects 13:51 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 76 points, T:153, killed by a fox 13:51 I could live with that: uncursed does restore, blessed does gain, cursed does drain? 13:52 sounds sensible 13:52 [hdf-us] [dnh] Tmasher (Con Bat Mal Cha), 985 points, T:1479, killed by a giant bat 13:52 [hdf-us] [dnh] monstergrin (Ana Elf Fem Cha) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:12966 13:52 Another approach could be something like... 13:52 Removing attribute restore entirely from unihorns, and making attribute loss a minor problem 13:53 Lymia: Hey, that's not bad. 13:53 why not both? :) 13:53 The core issue with nerfing unihorns is that there is no other easily accessible mean of attribute restoration. 13:54 well, for what attributes is attribute loss a big problem? I guess intelligence and strength are most problematic and then? 13:55 Con 13:56 -!- mcw has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:57 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 660 points, T:1553, killed by a pony 13:58 It would be both better and worse if Con changes changed your max HP retroactively Angband-style 13:59 <[Demo][srn]> time to play... grunt? 14:00 <[Demo][srn]> theres a TASer a friend of mine used to quote somtimes called SokobanSolver so that should be the name of a trophy for doin soko in all variants 14:00 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a black dragon, on T:38684 14:01 In my slex games, Str is a huge issue 14:02 Since my role is spellcasting heavy, often starts with 4-5 STR and ends up drained to 3 STR. 14:02 stat loss is just a bad monster mechanic, I mean, it's veyr useful in terms of cool monster design 14:02 but it's amazingly punishing mentally to lose attributes 14:02 <[Demo][srn]> uhhh wtf grunt 14:02 <[Demo][srn]> dwarf spawned on dlvl1 at xp lvl 1??? 14:02 <[Demo][srn]> thats not possible in vanilla... 14:03 ... it's a dwarf 14:03 if it's anything like nethack you're faster than it 14:03 zid: Eh, we could just replace all stat drain with level drain, and make attributes increase when you gain levels and decrease when you lose them :-) 14:03 hit it and it dies 14:03 I don't mind stat loss, at least, how it's implemented in Vanilla 14:03 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1510 14:03 <[Demo][srn]> but what im saying is grunt must change either dwarf difficulty OR how difficulty and shit interfacts with spawning 14:04 [Demo][srn]: that's actually a nice idea. half the players will hate it and half the players will love it 14:04 It's relatively easily and accessibly handlable, problematic if you can't handle it. Most problems in Nethack are structured like that, and I think it's fine. 14:05 [Demo][srn]: the Sokoban cross-variant trophy idea 14:05 <@luxidream> !tell AntiGulp cartomancer QA doesn't give slotless reflection like the wiki says 14:05 Will do, @luxidream! 14:06 !tell rld Stop using yellow for people's names 14:06 Will do, zid! 14:06 Slex isn't really that far off the mark with most of its nasty crap, IMO. It's bad, but for the most part, also something you can deal with in one way or another. 14:06 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:48817 14:07 yea stat loss isn't a huge issue in general, more demoralizing than hurtful 14:07 but if you hven't found a unihorn it can be really super annoying 14:07 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:48832 14:07 -!- mcw has joined #hardfought 14:07 [Demo][srn]: the problem is just that some variants don't record Sokoban, for annoying hysterical reasons 14:07 Rework idea for stat loss/gain: restore attribute only restores up to your starting stats 14:08 <@luxidream> splice better not have the force 14:08 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) woke the rulers of Gehennom by performing the invocation, on T:48887 14:08 Lymia: Oooh, that is deliciously evil. 14:09 Indirectly nerf gain attribute, while removing the need to nerf restore attribute. Fixing both problems, I think. 14:10 <[Demo][srn]> oh yeah there are some that dont 14:10 <[Demo][srn]> i forgot about that 14:10 Even if it only restored up to the arithmetic mean of your starting value and highest-value-so-far for any given attribute, that would be quite a significant nerf. 14:10 <[Demo][srn]> oh nitro's fault 14:11 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed the high priest of Moloch, on T:49004 14:11 <[Demo][srn]> someone needs to go back in time and merc the guy that made nitro 14:11 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:49006 14:12 I would mind the mysterious force less 14:12 If hell wasn't 100% mazes 14:12 <[Demo][srn]> why is the mysterious force still in 3.6.1? 14:12 Because the NH dev team thinks they're Evil Variant? 14:13 [hdf-us] [gh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 361 points, T:590, killed by a kobold zombie, while asleep 14:14 <[Demo][srn]> i guess its time to get fiqd up 14:14 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Demogorgon, on T:49089 14:14 <[Demo][srn]> luxidream, how strong is cartomancer late game? 14:14 <@luxidream> trash 14:15 -!- Mandevil has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15 <[Demo][srn]> damn 14:15 <@luxidream> scrolls almost never proc twice 14:15 <@luxidream> if it were based on level cartomancer would be great 14:15 <[Demo][srn]> was hoping it would be super easy and stuff 14:15 <@luxidream> wizard is better 14:16 How different do roles play in practice anyway? 14:17 <[Demo][srn]> depends on the variant 14:21 * Lymia shrugs 14:21 I should start trying to write a variant/rewrite at some point, and see where it goes I guess :D 14:22 <@Tone\ootc> Some roles play more similarly than others 14:22 <@Tone\ootc> On a certain level they all have the same win condition more or less though 14:23 <[Demo][srn]> thats why i like dnh 14:23 <[Demo][srn]> they dont all have the same win condition 14:23 Lymia: [backscroll] Gain ability is a rather serious balance problem, if you consider it being relatively easy for post-Castle characters to have maxed Dex, Con, 18/something Str, Int, and Wis. I generally agree with bhaak that vanilla blessed !oGA is OP, and agree with others that it should give you a choice of one stat to pick. 14:23 Oh? Explain? 14:23 <[Demo][srn]> oh god nerfing stuff 14:24 (wrt win condition) 14:24 <[Demo][srn]> hey instead of nerfing stuff just buff monsters !gt power creep 14:24 Pinkbeast: [backscroll] well unless you make a hobby out of revgenoing rabid rats, it's going to be hard to get serious Con attribute loss 14:24 aosdict\ito, Is maxed attributes a balance problem? 14:24 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 2749 points, T:3136, killed by a fire ant 14:24 <[Demo][srn]> so like anachrononauts have an entirely different astral goal than other roles 14:24 <[Demo][srn]> and binders have extra super monsters on astral 14:24 <[Demo][srn]> so like the condition in which they win is different 14:25 <[Demo][srn]> but the conidition you need to be in to win is also different 14:25 <[Demo][srn]> because you have access to different kinds of things as different roels 14:25 aah 14:25 Lymia: IMAO there is sort of a heffalump in the room in that in the middle to late game almost all monsters are irrelevant and deaths are to typos, and until that's corrected it's hard to say anything's a balance problem 14:25 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Mephisto, on T:50301 14:26 <[Demo][srn]> dnh is one of the few variants that isnt entirely abusive or unnecessary 14:26 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:50318 14:26 aosdict\ito: If unihorns don't work I am incentivised to do an exercise dance every few hundred turns (or save and load hem-hem) whereas right now I couldn't even tell you what exercises Con 14:27 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Geryon, on T:50478 14:27 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:50482 14:27 Lymia: All characters (who want to have) maxed attributes is a balance problem insofar as it is another factor contributing to all late-game heroes being the same, attribute-wise. 14:28 I see. 14:28 <[Demo][srn]> let them have it 14:28 <[Demo][srn]> they wont do any good when ur dead 14:28 So, it's boring, because rather than making tough choices about what stats are important, you end up with everyone's hitting or near their racial caps anywat. 14:28 anyway* 14:28 Isn't there a more fundamental issue that combat boils down to "hit the enemy with a weapon", then, rather than the stats themselves? 14:29 Really, tbh, that's why I play spellcasting roles. 14:29 <[Demo][srn]> you'd love dnh binder then 14:30 Lymia: That's sort of my issue, in that the problem is that that works really well and doesn't need much thought 14:30 Ideally, I can think of like five or six methods of combat that should be adequately differentiated: melee, thrown projectiles, shooting ammo, offensive spells, pet wrangling. 14:31 But the problem with everything except melee is: sometimes it doesn't work quite that effectively, and you need to fall back on melee. 14:31 <[Demo][srn]> #monster 14:31 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) wished for "2 cursed potions of gain level", on T:50771 14:31 It feels somewhat (I haven't played enough variants to know personally, but from what I've read/etc) that variants can identify the problem well, but don't consider all the alternatives to fixing it. 14:32 And fall back to "X sounds OP, nerf it" 14:32 (Another problem: all the artifacts that help in combat besides the Longbow are melee weapons, and so if you want a fancy artifact, you better go melee.) 14:32 <[Demo][srn]> yes that 14:32 <[Demo][srn]> its retarded 14:32 Also you can get good at melee without really investing in it (not that would change anything unless melee also didn't become so universally good and straightforward) 14:32 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed the Lord of the Foocubi, on T:50781 14:32 Pinkbeast: Dare we say "Melee combat is OP, nerf it"? :P 14:33 aosdict\ito: I think that's what I've been saying :-) 14:33 <@luxidream> didn't even get his name 14:34 I'm not even sure how you would go about nerfing melee combat. 14:34 Some of the thing I wanted to experiment with in a variant were more complicated boss mechanics than "glyph with nasty stats", or things like map-specific mechanics, or even mechanics specific to a role's quest, I guess. But, honestly. 14:34 Really, the proper fix is to buff other combat styles until they're competitive with melee. 14:34 make all weapons do less damage 14:34 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Yeenoghu, on T:50920 14:34 Seeing Nethack's source code makes me understand why variants might not already do this. 14:34 <[Demo][srn]> dont nerf melee combat 14:34 <[Demo][srn]> make the other options morew powerful and more convienent 14:35 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) entered the Planes, on T:50965 14:35 aosdict\ito: Monsters to do actual damage in melee (player AC not to be enormously effective part of that) so that you don't always want to be there 14:35 Lymia: you may be interested in https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Phol_ende_wodan/YANI/IRC_archive#Monster_AI_changes 14:35 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:50968 14:35 seriously, stop the nerfing now 14:35 [Demo][srn]: that's what I said! :-) 14:36 everybody and their little dog developing a variant has felt the need to nerf *something* and it's just not fun any more 14:36 -!- Mandevil has joined #hardfought 14:36 -!- mode/#hardfought [+o Mandevil] by ChanServ 14:36 It seems more that 14:37 I think if you want to take a holistic view on making the game better, you'll probably end up nerfing something in the process. 14:37 But, it'd have to be done with the intention to open up room for something else. 14:37 <@Tone\ootc> Flat nerfing weapon damaged would make the early game very difficult. You'd have to nerf late-game melee combat imo 14:38 Most nerfs in xnethack are either for violations of the consumable/renewable principle, or because there was some tactic that neutered some hazard to the player. 14:38 <[Demo][srn]> dont do what fh does and make the early game easier and the lategame harder 14:38 I didn't word that well. 14:38 <[Demo][srn]> cause splatting early game means you only wasted a few minutes where as lategame, i mean, that could be days 14:38 <@Tone\ootc> Excessive hp an ac are probably big reasons melee combat is so effective too 14:38 [Demo][srn]: isn't that the fix to the difficulty curve we're looking for 14:39 <@Tone\ootc> Also dark Mazes that don't allow you to do anything tactical 14:39 <[Demo][srn]> you wanna die after hours of progress? 14:39 <[Demo][srn]> i dont 14:39 <[Demo][srn]> i dont like risks like that being more common 14:39 <[Demo][srn]> if anything I say you get a checkpoint after the quest 14:39 [Demo][srn]: yeah but then we end up with a crappy difficulty curve like vanilla's where spending sufficiently long in the game = you deserve to win 14:40 and the only late game deaths are due to underpreparedness or typos 14:40 I think there's a fundamental game design failure here. 14:40 <[Demo][srn]> me yoo 14:41 <[Demo][srn]> and a lot of the treatment are of the symptoms, not the root 14:41 IMO, Nethack should really have a near flat difficulty curve. 14:41 (In terms of how it tests player skill) 14:41 Where increased difficulty balances out the (expected) player power. 14:42 Or maybe not that, but... each phase of the game should be significant, I guess. 14:42 So, to clarify: a difficulty curve in which 20% of deaths are in the first fifth or so of the game, 20% of deaths in the second, ... ? 14:42 (20% of deaths in the last fifth of the game) 14:42 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Death, on T:51203 14:42 [hdf-us] [dnh] rikersan (Bin Inc Mal Non), 14192 points, T:3430, killed by a hobgoblin, while sleeping 14:43 <@rikersan\srn> > you pass out from exertion 14:43 <@rikersan\srn> what 14:43 <[Demo][srn]> !lastgame 14:43 [Demo][srn]: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/r/rikersan/dnethack/dumplog/1528679405.dnh.txt 14:43 [Demo][srn]: [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/R/Raisse/nh343/dumplog/1528740221.nh343.txt 14:43 [Demo][srn]: [hdf-au] https://au.hardfought.org/userdata/E/Escaity/xnethack/dumplog/1528724476.xnh.txt 14:43 <[Demo][srn]> err whoops 14:43 ... hrm. 14:43 <@rikersan\srn> don't worry it's broken anyway 14:43 Lymia: I think there's a case that a harder early game is OK (partly because it's difficult for it to be interesting and yet not sometimes lethal) and the Planes can be a nasty sting in the tail for a climatic ending (especially since you should have an AoLS by now)... sort of like how it is now, really, only not trivial-except-typos in the middle. 14:44 life saving shouldn't be semi-mandatory 14:44 -!- MiseryMyra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:44 i almost never wear lifesaving 14:44 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 541 points, T:1950, killed by a wererat 14:44 It's guaranteed, and I don't see how the game can be remotely challenging without making you think you might want it 14:45 * hothraxxa shrugs 14:45 i find it a minimal strategy 14:45 i seem to get along 14:45 yeah, I often muse on how I want to tailor my asc kit without an "oLS... and then sigh and go for the life saving anyway because I might die to something stupid like c corpse shenanigans 14:45 life saving saves your life *once* from something that's likely to kill you again the next turn 14:45 hothraxxa: Well, yeah, the late game is too easy 14:45 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Famine, on T:51265 14:45 tell that to all my astral-splat characters 14:45 aosdict\ito, I suppose what I mean is 14:46 <[Demo][srn]> life saving is always the right call for me 14:46 Something like: 14:46 Progress should mean facing different challenges (because you've gotten the means to trivialize enough earlier challenges), not facing the same challenges but with higher numbers. 14:46 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) killed Pestilence, on T:51298 14:47 Lymia: Indeed. You could make some progress towards that with a tweak to the monster generation formula. 14:47 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law) made his first artifact wish - "blessed fixed greased +2 Acidfall", on T:51317 14:48 [hdf-us] [spl] Luxidream (Car Hum Mal Law), 1841432 points, T:51317, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/L/Luxidream/splicehack/dumplog/1528716659.splice.txt 14:48 Nerfing the means to trivialize challenges because they trivialize challenges is fundamentally contrary to this design goal. 14:48 <@Tone\ootc> 'grats @luxidream šŸ˜„ 14:48 (the monster generation formula treats as valid monsters those who have a difficulty between (XL+DL)/2, and DL/6. 14:48 <@rikersan\srn> what's acidfall? 14:48 <@luxidream> acid fire/frost brand 14:48 <@rikersan\srn> oh cool 14:48 <@luxidream> also known as op 14:49 DL/6 can be stupid low, like in lower Gehennom it can be around 6-8. 14:49 -!- tacco| has joined #hardfought 14:49 <@Tone\ootc> Yeah that sound pretty ridiculous 14:50 <@luxidream> thanks tone 14:50 <@luxidream> variant down 14:50 Maybe special levels should be part of this idea too. 14:50 <@Tone\ootc> Have you beaten splice before @luxidream? 14:51 More creative special level design could go quite a ways towards this, it provides a general flow of "challenge A exists in the way, I need to prepare for it", I guess. hrm 14:51 <@luxidream> hadn't even tried it until pretty much today 14:51 <@Tone\ootc> Had a feeling that might be the case šŸ˜„ 14:51 Lymia: That's a great sentiment, but... for instance, the game goes to great lengths to provide a system in which you can lose and regain points in your attributes. But once you encounter and kill a single (fairly early-game) unicorn, that system *stops mattering entirely.* 14:51 Thus neutering that system completely. 14:52 ... hrm. slex grey rocks are horrifying, monsters can throw them at you, but there's also ways to exhaust resource toward getting rid of one, and there exist repeatable ways to be able to handle that issue entirely. 14:52 <@rikersan\srn> ther'es also a trap for them 14:52 <@rikersan\srn> I've gotten oneshot by a loadstone from the ceiling and then screwed by an unholy stone in minetown 14:53 <@Tone\ootc> I just cleared votd with my current character and finally found my first unicorn 14:53 <@Tone\ootc> I've been walking around with 4 int after getting zapped by a throne 14:53 <@rikersan\srn> that's like begging for brainlessness 14:53 <@luxidream> thankfully locusts are contained to unnethack 14:53 I wonder if there's merit in doing what slex does, as a means to an end (hence... giving a direction to adding a bunch of crazy stuff), rather than as an end of its own. 14:53 Lymia: Mastering the spell of restore ability, on the other hand, takes longer to do and while it still neuters the system, there's more of a cost to it 14:53 <@luxidream> otherwise you'd probably die a different way too 14:54 <@Tone\ootc> What do locusts do? 14:54 <@rikersan\srn> sickness sting 14:54 <@rikersan\srn> iirc they spawn around the level of killer bees or soldier ants 14:54 aosdict\ito, the answer I gave was to remove restore attribute from unihorns and make attribute loss a minor problem. 14:54 Lymia: want to join my one-man design team for vanilla/xnh quest special levels? :) 14:54 <@rikersan\srn> i.e. pretty lethal 14:54 congrats @luxidream 14:55 <@luxidream> nah they're diff 10 14:55 <@luxidream> thanks K2 14:55 do not eat locusts 14:55 Lymia: I agree with that. 14:55 locusts are nasty 14:55 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 2394 points, T:1898, quit 14:55 Junethack: Achievement "Backpacking Tourist" unlocked by Luxidream! 14:55 Junethack: Luxidream ascended a game of SpliceHack on www.hardfought.org! 14:55 Slex has the issue that there's no way to consistently spend resources towards fixing attribute loss. 14:55 <@rikersan\srn> !lastasc tariru 14:55 @rikersan\srn: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/T/Tariru/slex/dumplog/1520798174.slex.txt 14:55 @rikersan\srn: [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/T/Tariru/nh343/dumplog/1528638991.nh343.txt 14:55 Muad\ito: what happens when you eat locusts 14:56 <@rikersan\srn> !lastgame tariru 14:56 @rikersan\srn: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/T/Tariru/slex/dumplog/1520798174.slex.txt 14:56 @rikersan\srn: [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/T/Tariru/nh343/dumplog/1528638991.nh343.txt 14:56 aosdict\ito, i think instadeath 14:56 or maybe just the illness again.. i just made a note never to eat 'em 14:56 Gray rocks: You can try shopkeep uncurse, dipping into fountains, wield+?oEnchant Weapon, etc. 14:56 <@luxidream> !tell AntiGulp will-o-wisps are the worst thing in splice 14:56 Will do, @luxidream! 14:56 [hdf-us] [nh343] rebatela (Pri Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed spellbook of polymorph", on T:72094 14:56 <@rikersan\srn> what do they do? 14:56 ... while probably spending some resource to not die to the gray rock's effects. 14:56 hah 14:57 <@rikersan\srn> lymia: IMO the worst bit is not knowing what rock you have 14:57 <@luxidream> basically slow grid bugs that break wands and rings 14:57 <@rikersan\srn> huh 14:57 but there are *a lot* of them 14:57 <@rikersan\srn> lymia: i.e. that unholy stone I had, I had no clue what it was but then was instakilled when I tried to altar test things 14:57 [hdf-us] [nh343] rebatela (Pri Hum Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:72138 14:58 DCSS (sorry but I was never going to get through this whole conversation without mentioning it) XP-gates recovery from stat drain so you can always have it but you've got to go and kill some monsters with your drained stats 14:58 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:673 14:58 It does make enlightenment very important in slex, between nasty effects and nerfed identify. 15:00 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 15:00 <aosdict\ito> Lymia: want to join my one-man design team for vanilla/xnh quest special levels? :) 15:00 Do I get to make new terrain types, enemies, mechanics, and nonsense that exist only in one quest level? 15:01 <[Demo][srn]> "The Lady favours you extremely deeply." why are there two adverbs what 15:01 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 788 points, T:1757, killed by a giant ant, while frozen by a monster's gaze 15:01 [hdf-us] [fh] dr zeus (Demo) (Tou Gno Fem Neu) received Vorpal Blade from The Lady, on T:4811 15:02 (tbh, that's why I want to rewrite the Nethack core) 15:02 <[Demo][srn]> ur dumb lady 15:02 (In a not-C language) 15:02 (So, doing such a thing is actually... somewhat practical) 15:04 [hdf-us] [fh] dr zeus (Demo) (Tou Gno Fem Neu) heard a rumor from The Oracle, on T:5102 15:05 Lymia: I'm sticking to existing stuff as much as possible. 15:06 The planes works as a climatic finisher, IMO, partly due to the unique mechanics involved, I guess. 15:07 <[Demo][srn]> leave the things in the planes in the planes 15:07 <[Demo][srn]> dont reuse them elsewhere 15:07 <[Demo][srn]> ur lazy 15:07 Yes, that's why role/quest-specific mechanics instead of reusing the ones in the planes. 15:07 The basic idea, not the exact mechanics. 15:08 I had the idea that if each role's quest provided unique challenges that required unique preparation (that could be in-line with what the class "should do"), it would help with distinguishing classes long-term too. 15:08 Since they'd have to spend resources to be good at the thing the quest demands 15:08 (Similar to all the ?oGDs you make for endgame) 15:09 [Demo][srn]: I do want to use AIR terrain outside the plane of air, as bottomless pits for other special levels. 15:10 <[Demo][srn]> Lymia you should really play dnethack, it plays with a lot of your ideas 15:11 I wouldn't mind seeing Brogue-style chasms, but I tend to think that should be distinct from plane-of-air terrain. 15:11 <@rikersan\srn> plus dnh is jus tcool in general 15:11 Noted. :) 15:12 In fact, it's really more similar to holes, than to Plane of Air. 15:14 I think it's worth nothing that spellcasting is the only actually "open ended" combat system in Nethack. Fighting with force bolt vs bouncing missiles vs targeted fireball vs (element) sphere involve different tactics, and at any point, one can be more effective than another. 15:14 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 1951 points, T:2551, killed by a gnome king 15:14 Charm Monster 15:15 Melee is always "hit the person" (that's the only button you get), projectiles is always "shoot the person" (that's the only button you get), pet working is... E-Elbereth all day. 15:17 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 161 points, T:640, burned by a tower of flame 15:17 @luxidream locusts are from sporkhack. but I think you mostly encounter them when priests summon them 15:19 there's an "easy" fix to the problem that late game monsters are so squishy. just make the dungeon shorter. 15:19 <[Demo][srn]> good idea 15:19 <[Demo][srn]> make it all shorter 15:20 Strangely, making the dungeon smaller makes the game harder 15:20 that's one idea for a gehennom redesign that I've been pondering. 15:20 You have less room to work with to fix problems 15:20 <[Demo][srn]> cap xlvl at 20 15:20 less depth, more breadth 15:21 [Demo][srn], dnethack is certainly interesting, I suppose. 15:21 jonadab: Specifically, I want to change Valk-locate into the broken Bifrost bridge, which will obviously need open air around it. But holes won't do the trick since they're flavored as normal floor with a hole in it. 15:21 From what I'm reading. 15:21 <[Demo][srn]> it would be interesting to see a variant that put castle at dlvl 20 and sanctum at 35 15:21 Binder is... hrm. I'll have to play with it. 15:22 <[Demo][srn]> biner is great 15:22 I'm not sure I'd design it that way personally, even if it is cool. 15:22 Lymia: more racial branches. like the elven forests or whatever. 15:22 [Demo][srn]: Castle at 20 and Sanctum at 35, in separate branches that are entered from depth 1? 15:22 <[Demo][srn]> what 15:22 It replaces the core gameplay, and uses a whole subsystem that other roles can't even use on a basic level. 15:23 <[Demo][srn]> they can on a basic level 15:23 -!- deadnoob has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:23 Oh? 15:23 <[Demo][srn]> but later on 15:23 <[Demo][srn]> yeah if they learn from bones, book of names, or necronomicon 15:23 <[Demo][srn]> im not sure if learning seals from bones works right now though 15:23 <[Demo][srn]> not that thats a common thing 15:24 <[Demo][srn]> but yeah they always have low binder dice and can only bind 1 spirit at a time unlike binder even if they do learn seals 15:24 <[Demo][srn]> ndnh adds a role that instead of binding spirits summons them to battle and they have cool stuff 15:25 -!- stenno\ito has joined #hardfought 15:25 It doe sound more restricted than spellcasting, I guess. 15:26 <[Demo][srn]> its complicate 15:26 (In accessibility) 15:26 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 15:26 <[Demo][srn]> ah yeah 15:27 <[Demo][srn]> much more yeah 15:31 I suppose (at least, in terms of what I'd design), I'm personally not 100% comfortable with the gap between there being very unique roles (Binder, etc) while the more similar vanilla roles still exist. 15:31 But, well 15:31 It's something I'll have to play to see how it works in practice 15:32 <[Demo][srn]> it has a lot of shortcomings and needs an entire redesign after many ascensions and hrs of play in my opinion 15:32 <[Demo][srn]> its still fun and plays with some interesting ideas in its current form though 15:34 I'd love to start working on something, but. Nethack codebase. :( 15:34 [hdf-us] [fh] dr zeus (Demo) (Tou Gno Fem Neu), 51401 points, T:8271, killed by a black unicorn 15:34 <[Demo][srn]> left bones... heh 15:34 <[Demo][srn]> enjoy my vorpal blade, poor soul 15:34 <[Demo][srn]> i think it left a player monster 15:35 IDK if I'd rather do basic work on making the engine easier to work with or go straight into implementing stuff 15:35 Were you involved in making dnh? 15:35 <[Demo][srn]> no 15:35 I love writing engine code and hate writing real code 15:35 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3764 15:35 so I know which I'd do 15:35 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 2669 points, T:3769, killed by a raven 15:35 <[Demo][srn]> im working on a variant of dnh though, ndnh 15:35 I would wonder how much work binder was to get working in that mess 15:36 In 10 years we'll have splicedxnethack4fourk 15:36 <[Demo][srn]> ive read through a lot of the commits 15:36 <[Demo][srn]> and yes its a shitshow 15:36 <[Demo][srn]> i totally agree there is a problem and theres a reason i havent tried to push ndnh on anything yet 15:37 Is it still a variant if its engine is actually completely rewritten in Rust :^) 15:37 <[Demo][srn]> no 15:38 I'd say so, as long as you port it and then change it 15:38 rather than rewrite it in a changed state 15:38 <[Demo][srn]> everybody always starts those and then never finishes those 15:38 <[Demo][srn]> just like variants actually 15:38 I'd be happy to be the first to finish one :D 15:38 <[Demo][srn]> but when u have an unfinished one of those ppl dont shove it on u on during some dumb tournament 15:38 zid, that's... hard. 15:39 will be hard to truly port it 15:39 with all the intended and unintended side effects 15:39 If you want to do fundamental change (e.g. unifying players/monsters, etc), there will be gameplay differences from... uh. The fundamental engine changes made. 15:39 i think it was ported to ansi-C at some point 15:39 I think it was ran through a linter to do that 15:39 I don't think anybody actually properly ported it 15:40 fair, i don't know 15:40 tbh 15:40 It's a lot of work, but 15:40 If I do it right, it also means other people can reuse that work to make variants easier/better. 15:40 i ported parts of the monster generation code to javascript to run some simulations 15:40 So idk 15:40 IMO, it's worth it to do, even if it's a PITA 15:40 Granted 15:41 I wouldn't want to do it *alone* 15:41 the most radical rewrite is probably nitrohack, and as a standalone it sucks 15:42 nitrohack has a json api, technically 15:43 If I were going to port nethack to C I'd just write my own shit 15:43 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NitroHack 15:43 which C 15:43 ansi? 15:43 C 15:43 rather than 'something pretty like C' :P 15:43 <[Demo][srn]> "maintained by Daniel Thaler. " nice one 15:43 hah 15:43 <[Demo][srn]> isnt it not maintained at all? 15:44 yea I tend to stick to C90 unless there's a definite reason to use C99 15:44 and never touch C11 15:44 :v 15:44 [Demo][srn]: read a bit more :P 15:44 [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:15248 15:44 <[Demo][srn]> whys it gonna say shit then take it abck 15:44 well $NEXTVERSION will deprecate K&R features 15:44 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:2175 15:45 Only place I use C99 is for named initializers 15:45 that I can think of 15:45 from the 3.6.1 release notes: 15:45 If I'd go for a full rewrite 15:45 I'd abandon C entirely, I think 15:45 Starting with the next major release, we will be dropping support for most K&R and pre-ANSI C features, including: 15:45 The Bitfield macro 15:45 K&R function definitions 15:45 Starting with the next major release, we will start using ANSI C features; which ones have yet to be determined. 15:45 If you are actively running NetHack on a system that cannot handle full ANSI C, please let us know some details and we _might_ be able to accommodate you. 15:46 compound literals very occasionally 15:46 Rust is a good candidate, I think (... among languages I know well enough to take such a large project in) 15:46 But iunno who'd be able to help me with that once it's off the ground :D 15:46 having sane OOP may or may not be helpful 15:46 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) genocided class h, on T:40483 15:47 for something like nethack probably not 15:47 Almost all of it is weird edge-case handling 15:47 yeah and thats the general problem with porting nethack 15:47 It's not like you're just making slight variations on a base object 15:47 as i mentioned earlier 15:48 You're just writing 100 'if(obj->type == sword && ..) 15:48 if you just end up writing the same code in a different language, might aswell leave it 15:48 yep :P 15:48 turning that into a full class would be a waste of filesize 15:48 <[Demo][srn]> what if junethack is bhaak's way of trying to demonstrate how shitty the wasteland of shitty variants are? 15:49 Is NH3.6.x a shitty variant in that view? 15:49 man you are fucking salty about variants 15:49 3.6.0 is definitely a shitty variant 15:49 3.6.1 is debateable 15:49 <@luxidream> 3.6.1 removed the ability to close out of inventory with the return key 15:49 <@luxidream> shitty variant 15:50 <[Demo][srn]> 3.6.1 abuses the shit out of muscle memory 15:50 3.6.0 is shit, 3.6.1 is really goodx 15:50 xnethack > 3.6.1 > 3.4.3-NAO > (3.4.3|3.6.0) 15:50 stenno\ito, I've seen one project approach a similar problem with an abstraction that solves a very similar problem, and implements it very cleanly. 15:50 Namely, Pokemon Showdown. 15:50 well vanilla 3.6.0 is probably better than 3.4.3 15:51 well vanilla 3.6.0 is probably better than 3.4.3 15:51 incorrect 15:51 <[Demo][srn]> that's why we have good variants 15:51 <[Demo][srn]> like 343nao 15:51 A similar design, IMO, would work for Nethack too :) 15:51 Lymia: you have to be extremely smart about it 15:51 to be honest, i doubt that it is possible sensibly 15:52 Pokemon Showdown, at its core, uses a dynamic language and a table of callbacks (effectively) to solve the full expression problem. 15:52 zid: Perhaps in ten years we'll have dxUnFIQ'EM 15:53 jonadab, so, slex? 15:53 hah 15:53 Lymia: Hopefully not htat. 15:53 You can define something to hook at any place (it doesn't need to be defined at all since it's a dynamic language), and you can use any hook in any place (basically) 15:53 hmm 15:53 Nethack could probably use a function pointer or two 15:54 i think that adeon injects lua code in monst.c for pinobot 15:55 god I hate hosting lua 15:55 or at least we talked about something like that at some point, can't remember exactly 15:55 brave man 15:55 As an example applied to Nethack, "on hit" can be something that a monster type, role, active status effect, worn equipment, carried artifact, etc can all hook 15:55 stenno\ito: I thought it was Haskel. 15:56 I wouldn't have as big of an issue if they let you clone lua contexts 15:56 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 15:56 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 15:56 -!- dizzylizzy\ito has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:57 yeah no lua in pinobot 15:57 <[Demo][srn]> why is nethack4 so dumb for me? 15:57 <[Demo][srn]> everything is red 15:58 -!- dizzylizzy\ito has joined #hardfought 15:58 <[Demo][srn]> the dwarf is red, his highlight is red, the mines are red, my cursor is red 15:58 I had term issues with nh4 15:58 I had to resize the window and hit ctrl-r and shit to get it right 15:58 I think the hard bit is working out what the interactions should be - this sort of all-hooks system will produce lots of emergent interactions (hooray?) some of which will be obscure and terrible (oops) 15:58 stenno\ito, does that sound about right, for a viable way to "untangle" interactions? 15:59 Pinkbeast, it's how Pokemon Showdown untangles Pokemon's mess of interactions 15:59 i am not sure - there are really soooo many edge cases 15:59 So, at minimum, it's proven to work. 15:59 -!- AntiGulp has joined #hardfought 15:59 i would have to look a bit more into that port i guess 16:00 Really, most edge cases will still be handled explicitly, I guess. 16:00 ... just, in more appropriate places? hrm 16:00 That's why it needs a couple function pointers 16:01 so an arti is just a base object with a different function pointer hung off it in its initialization list 16:01 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 16:01 zid, we get it, you're a curmudgeon of a programmer. :P 16:01 <[Demo][srn]> so brown is red and long sword color is that green helmet color 16:01 More modern languages support handling things that way entirely 16:01 yeah maybe refactoring would help a lot already 16:01 Lymia: I know what works, and I know you end up in the shit real fast if you try to be clever. 16:02 Can't teach an old dog new tricks, I guess. :D 16:02 <[Demo][srn]> ok cool i fixed it 16:02 If the codebases of the variants I've seen are any indication, things are already in the shit, without being clever. 16:03 The fact a bunch of variants exist proves that otherwise 16:03 it's an old game 16:03 Openssl was actually shit, so the "we need to fix this" strat was just to rewrite it into libressl 16:03 one could start to sanely refactor wand breaking code to make it extensible 16:04 howdy 16:04 I'm not sure how you'd start refactoring anything in Nethack. 16:04 one of the major problems nethack suffers is that of having to care about performance, and it being written in an ancient dead language 16:04 as well as performance of the compiler that compiled it 16:04 Due to it being in C, a lot of abstractions you could otherwise use aren't available. 16:04 C has waaaaay better abstraction capacity than most languages most people try to use 16:05 Considering my variant for second junethack ascension attempt... Is FIQHack easier/same/harder than vanilla 3.6.1? 16:05 Right, like it's inability to express std::vector 16:05 the wand breaking code atm is switch/case fallthrough with a few goto/labels sprinkled in between 16:05 bouquet: most likely harder 16:06 There probably needs to be a split between wands/scrolls/rings/etc themselves and abstract effects. 16:06 I've got a monk going in xnh but that started right before junethack and I'd like to keep him. 16:06 Since abstract effects are shared a lot, and the code to share it looks *horrid* 16:06 where is the code that lets you make a wish? 16:06 of course, its in zap.c 16:06 where else 16:06 Isn't lots of it in objnam too? 16:06 You either go one of two ways, everything is just an generic object and you override the generics 16:07 How's Dynahack compare? 16:07 or you go for 'an ring' 'an wand' etc 16:07 yeah readobjnam is the parser 16:07 bouquet: harder 16:07 nethack sorta goes for neither properly 16:07 and there is fuzzymatch too which removes a few - and allows stuff like 'marker of magic' 16:08 bouquet: if you want a variant which is like 3.6.1, but better (imo), try xnethack 16:08 zid, really, the design I'm starting to get a picture of is also in between. 16:08 Yea, you'll end up in the shit there 16:08 nothing will live anywhere 16:09 If you say so. 16:09 good job enforcing and using encapsulation when everything needs to touch everything else to implement your semi-generics 16:10 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:6554 16:10 stenno\ito I love xnh! But I have a monk in there that started before junethack so I can't start another game without ending that game. 16:10 zid: PM? 16:10 bouquet: aah! 16:10 zid: (as in, can i PM you shortly) 16:10 yea go for it 16:11 unless there's a way to put that game aside and start another (like in fiqhack). 16:12 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) killed Thoth Amon, on T:41702 16:12 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:41703 16:12 Where does Nethack need significant encapsulation? 16:13 bouquet: not to my knowledge 16:13 bouquet: the only idea would be playing on another server.. 16:13 The whole problem is designing things in such a way hat everything can interact *specifically* with anything without it becoming too insane. 16:13 that* 16:14 [hdf-us] [nh4] ihatenitro (Demo) (Cav Dwa Fem Law), 38428 points, T:2875, killed by an ettin mummy, while praying 16:14 <[Demo][srn]> thank god 16:15 Item identity of some sort has to exist, entirely erasing an item into simply "it's an abstract entity, call hooks/methods" isn't always sufficient. Not giving some means to handle items that way when you need to... well. 16:15 That's where Nethack is now. 16:15 I'll give splicehack a go. 16:16 woooooo 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from stenno\ito at 2018-06-10 15:36 EDT: uh. i am pretty sure that my shield of resonance transformed into a shield of reflection. check out ttyrecs of my current game, around T:6.8k 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from stenno\ito at 2018-06-10 15:38 EDT: (sorry) here is the relevant ttyrec, its on the last frames https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/s/stenno/splicehack/ttyrec/2018-06-10.19:13:15.ttyrec.gz 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-11 02:19 EDT: well, those polymorphed quest guardians certainly continued polymorphing, even when one of them ended up on the level below he still polymorphed every few turns 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-11 06:45 EDT: holy hell is your lord of the foocubi a motherfucker, literally. How are you supposed to defeat him without abusing one of the instakills he's susceptible to? 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-11 08:40 EDT: please make it so that staircases covered by an item are highlighted! it's no fun if you have to _ < to find Vlad's stair because it was under a pile of rocks 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-11 10:12 EDT: Your idea with the demon lords on vibrating square might be nice, but 1. you forgot to remove the debug lines that tell the player who got summoned and 2. half of them were on the VS level itself, meaning you either use cursed gain level or get overwhelmed by them. 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from AmyBSOD\srn at 2018-06-11 11:10 EDT: Since I don't want to only bitch at you constantly, I hereby want to thank you for making Splicehack. I just ascended it. While I don't agree with a bunch of your changes, I absolutely appreciate that you continue working on it. Keep up the good work, I'm looking forward to see 0.32! :) 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from @luxidream at 2018-06-11 11:43 EDT: is it intended behaviour that you're forced to phase into the cartomancer quest 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from @luxidream at 2018-06-11 14:05 EDT: cartomancer QA doesn't give slotless reflection like the wiki says 16:16 AntiGulp: Message from @luxidream at 2018-06-11 14:56 EDT: will-o-wisps are the worst thing in splice 16:16 oh god what 16:16 nice 16:16 excess flood 16:16 oh no saved 16:16 oh maybe it has been limited to 10 messages max? 16:17 Really 16:17 Lymia: Things need encapsulation because people are human. You can't *not* do things the 'right way' if the only way to do it is through the sole non-static function provided to do just that 16:17 It'd probably be best for me to jump into a rewrite if I really want to, and just see where it leads. :D 16:18 -!- MiseryMyra has joined #hardfought 16:19 [hdf-us] [nh361] Demo (Arc Hum Fem Law), 8324 points, T:500, killed by a raven 16:19 !tell AmyBSOD thank you for the feedback! I canā€™t believe I left the debug lines in aarrrrghhh, I really have to clean up that function (should randomly relocate all of them, possibly was just bad rng, will look into it). Also in 3.6 you can use the extended terrain command to check where stairs are. 16:19 Will do, AntiGulp! 16:19 Not encapsulating via add_gold and trade_item etc is how you get gold and item dupes :P 16:21 Neither is particularly complicated in Nethack, where an error is an error and kills the program, and code is executed very linearly 16:21 <[Demo][srn]> hmm i should be getting sightseeing tour shortly 16:21 the thing i would not say about nethack code is that its lienarly 16:21 !tell luxidream Thanks for letting me know about the QA, bug logged. There should be some secret doors in the cartomancer quest. Yeah, wisps are nasty 16:21 Will do, AntiGulp! 16:22 stenno\ito, I should rather say. 16:22 Unlike MMOs/Minecraft/etc, there is certainly no form of concurrency. 16:22 stenno: I canā€™t look into the bug right now (working) but Iā€™ll log it and take a look! 16:22 thanks :D 16:23 AntiGulp: am i correct that there is supposedly no shield of reflection in splice? 16:23 Encapsulation applies when there is only one way to interact with something right, and its components aren't important. 16:23 no 16:23 oh you mean nethack is threadsafe 16:23 No, thereā€™s a shield of reflection 16:23 This applies in some areas to Nethack, I suppose. But, as for actual game objects... uh. 16:23 with the same appereance? 16:23 encapsulation is about making it so things that don't need to care about a thing can't care about a thing 16:24 So your 'hit a monster with a sword' code doesn't need to know the implementation details of shields, it just asks the shield code. 16:24 stenno: I was a huge jerk when I added it, so they both exist but have the same experience 16:24 It means your code is in the 'right place', in practice, nobody is writing silly gold dupe bugs because they can just do gold += 10; without using add_gold which properly checks for if(gold < 0) ... 16:24 *appearance 16:24 alright 16:24 because they ltierally don't have the definition of what gold is 16:24 I think we're speaking on different abstraction levels. In Nethack's gameplay, everything already cares about everything. 16:25 ok there might be some problems arising from that, AntiGulp :D 16:25 Right, which is why it's bad 16:25 But you have to break a lot of encapsulation if your compiler can't see through it 16:25 So you believe the gameplay itself is bad? 16:25 which for when nethack was written, was "constantly" 16:25 what the hell has this got to do with gameplay 16:25 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo (Pir Dro Fem Cha), 4191 points, T:2265, killed by a falling object 16:26 In slex (I don't know where this is rooted from between nh3.4.x, slashem and slex), shields block non-spell projectiles sometimes -- but not spells. 16:27 Either projectile attacks need to know about shields in particular, or shields in particular need to know about projectile attacks. Through a flag, through whatever means, this interaction can't erase the identity of *both* the attack and the defense. 16:27 fully erase* 16:27 they don't n eed to know about what a shield IS 16:27 they don't need to accidentally duplicate the 'shield effectiveness' code 16:28 the way you do this, is by making it IMPOSSIBLE for your projectile code to inspect a shield object 16:28 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo (Con Vam Fem Cha), 16 points, T:449, killed by a falling object 16:28 all it can do is ask the shield code ABOUT a shield object. "How likely is this to block a projectile?" 16:28 could look up how they fixed 'turned to slime by a scroll of genocide' 16:29 Is that a delayed_killer issue? 16:29 yeah 16:29 I saw that variable lying around and noted "this sounds dangerous" 16:29 rather than projectile.c: /* Check if projectile is blocked */ player->shieldslot->object->size * 10. ...; /* Oh shit that was changed to 7 not 10 in 3.4.2 but nobody updated this code */ 16:29 Probably similar to "petrified by a green slime". 16:29 /* You were supposed to call shield_projblock_chance where it was changed to 7 */ 16:29 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo (Nob Vam Fem Cha), 8 points, T:1300, killed by a falling object 16:30 [hdf-us] [fh] Nu (krm26) (Arc Hum Fem Law) genocided disenchanters, on T:49761 16:30 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) had Fire Brand bestowed upon her by Crom, on T:42199 16:30 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo (Con Bat Fem Cha), 28 points, T:288, killed by a giant bat 16:33 I think you may be overvaluing forced encapsulation here. The programmer can.... have discretion? No shit, code duplication is bad, you solve that via basically functions. 16:33 Yes, encapsulation is how you force people to use those functions. 16:33 More importantly, force yourself, otherwise you will forget. 16:33 You understand the code too well. "Oh I can just grab this property out of this struct.." 16:34 then you find yourself 2 months later having to ctrl-f your source for that property and change the 20 places it got used, rather than 1 small function 16:34 AntiGulp - this has to be a bug. Press ; then : instant quit. 16:34 If you remember having written a function for it, and that you never actually exposed the struct in the first place, you just do it right automatically 16:35 bouquet: Today appears to me the bug-finding day for SpliceHack. You examined yourself, and then instant quit? 16:35 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo (Con Bat Fem Cha), 510 points, T:1743, killed by a yesod sephirah 16:36 ya, actually, just confirmed it's a HDF curses bug, not splicehack. 16:36 I will simply say that this is not an issue I associate with one-person projects. 16:36 Then you've never written a project big enough by yourself. 16:37 It looks INCREDIBLY amateur if you have bad encapsulation, and makes it damn near impossible for anyone else to contribute, or even to pick up a project you put on hold for a couple of months, or respond to bug reports 16:37 so it's sort of self-fulfilling 16:37 !tell Tangles examime self caused instant quit. ";" then ":". Happened in splicehack. 16:37 Will do, bouquet! 16:37 Your projects remain small and 1 person 16:37 bouquet: I feel bad for being happy about that, but Iā€™m glad itā€™s not another thing that I broke. Hopefully curses gets more stable over time. 16:38 That is the larger issue to consider, yes, when you actually need to communicate the design to other programmers, who may not be 100% familiar with the code, and the right way to do things. 16:38 This is nothing to do with being stuck in the mud, or an old-timer, or whatever other comments you made, it's about being a good engineer 16:38 AntiGulp I need to start testing without it enabled before I start screaming bug. 16:38 I will certainly say "opps, I used the properties to calculate shield effectively directly instead of going through this helper function I know I already written" is not a one-person project issue in my experience. 16:39 You can write working code with awful encapsulation, just don't expect to be able to maintain it, or anyone else to be able to work on it 16:39 Lymia: except it should be *impossible* to do, with encapsulation, without manually bypassing it 16:39 which should throw up HUGE red flags 16:39 would you consider using libpng by downloading its source, and modifying its header files? 16:41 if you're not going to use your compiler and linker etc to help you, why use them, just write everything in a single file 16:42 zid, Lymia - what do you two do for a living? does it involve programming or is it just a hobby? 16:42 I'm well aware of how to do good encapsulation in cases where it make sense. But, well. This is a nethack engine, and nethack is a game made out of corner cases and exceptions. "Use your language features to make it impossible to access raw shield properties, so you can't use it by accident when you mean block chance" is not a viable practice when something else cares about the shield size directly for legitimate reasons. 16:43 e.g. a variant where melee weapons can get stuck in a shield. 16:43 K2: I'm a bum, I just do odd jobs on t'internet 16:43 ;) 16:44 Mainly lately I've been reverse engineering arcade games 16:44 you and Grasshopper should talk 16:44 CS student, weird personal projects. The main one I've personally actually pushed to release is a Civ V mod for online modded multiplayer. 16:44 nice 16:45 only if he wants to do a few hundred more hours on this IDA database 16:45 i never got into programming unfortunately, wish I had. never went past BASIC back in the early 80's 16:45 I'm sick to death of it :P 16:45 <[Demo][srn]> yo k2 there was something i needed to tell u but i forgot it 16:45 been picking up bits and pieces right here 16:45 [Demo][srn] if its important you'll remember ;) 16:45 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo (Brd Swn Fem Neu), 120 points, T:1053, killed by a ghoul, while paralyzed by a monster 16:46 <[Demo][srn]> it was either thanking u or scourning u, i dont remember 16:46 <[Demo][srn]> i think it was thanking 16:46 prob the latter 16:46 hahah 16:46 zid, so, what I mean is. Unfortunately, using encapsulation to enforce such things is a very difficult prospect with a game deigned like Nethack. 16:46 You'll find a vast majority of it is completely fine 16:46 Encapsulate everything to do with shields, and suddenly, anything that cares about shield properties end up in the shield code even if only one thing cares about it in that way. 16:47 good. 16:47 That's what a shield.c *should* be 16:47 "things that care about shields" 16:47 this must be about splicehack 16:47 Surprisingly no 16:47 * K2 hasnt caught up on backscroll yet 16:48 its about refactoring nethack or rewriting it in another language 16:48 About designing a rewritten engine for Nethack (and porting basically identical gameplay) 16:48 Lymia refuses to belive nethack can be written using basic language features and has to be a clusterufck mess no matter what, is what I gathered 16:48 I saw your bug tracker emails AntiGulp, figured this might be related 16:48 ah 16:48 has anyone checked in on mcw lately? 16:48 <[Demo][srn]> no 16:48 <[Demo][srn]> tubs is dead 16:48 he was redoing nethack (with his own twists) in C++ 16:48 I think our languages of choice make the definition of "basic language features" very different... 16:49 Separate from the encapsulation conversation. Like four different bugs cropped up at once. Right now Iā€™m trying to kludge an artifact into granting reflection on carrying. 16:49 Most of what I want to use is a basic language feature in Rust. 16:49 AntiGulp: int givesreflection; in the object struct, bam :p 16:49 (Or, at least, common library/stdlib code) 16:49 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo (Ana Dro Fem Cha), 213 points, T:1202, killed by a jackal called myrkalfr are cool 16:50 AntiGulp, don't some artifacts already grant intrinsics on carry? 16:50 zid: I donā€™t want to put even more variables in the object struct if I can help it (the next version of splicehack puts a ton of stuff into the monst struct already), and I found a way to do it using the existing cary function. 16:50 Isn't there that big properties bitfield to put it into? 16:50 Lymia yep! Iā€™m co-opting a piece of that code 16:51 I haven't looked deeply into how that bitfield works though 16:51 So. 16:51 idk 16:52 The other thing is (because of nethackā€™s lack of encapsulation) reflection has to be coded in a different function every time it is granted by something new, so I have to do that now. Raaagh 16:52 AntiGulp: Yea it's crap 16:52 To just shove it in the object code that is 16:53 [hdf-us] [spl] bouquet (Dra Mer Fem Neu), 809 points, T:2175, killed by a kobold lord 16:53 It was tongue in cheek 16:53 zid, Is the interaction of shields blocking projectiles a property of the shield, or the projectile? What the property of, say, an acid spit attack corroding a shield when it's blocked with one? 16:53 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo (Kni Clk Fem Law), 366 points, T:1400, killed by kicking a wall 16:54 <[Demo][srn]> does anyone know the actual requirements for dNethack tour? 16:54 Lymia: You don't even have to care. 16:54 You just tell the shield code /a/ projectile was fired at it, if it wants to damage itself because the projectile was acid 16:54 that's up to the shield code 16:54 that is THE ENTIRE POINT 16:56 <[Demo][srn]> ive finished a game in every variant, why dont i have sightseeing tour? 16:56 because you didn't have 1000 turns in every variant? 16:56 <[Demo][srn]> where does it say 1k turns? 16:56 [Demo][srn] do you have the gm option turned on for slex in your rc cfg? 16:57 thats what was holding me up 16:57 <[Demo][srn]> the gm option? 16:57 Demo[srn]: somewhere in the description of the trophy, can't be hedgehogged to look up the exact place 16:57 yea what's a gm option 16:57 <[Demo][srn]> like game master? 16:58 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) polymorphed her first object, on T:43028 16:59 yes 16:59 i was helping Amy test it out when she implemented it way back forgot it was in my cfg 16:59 What's it even do? 16:59 <[Demo][srn]> lets amy fuck with u 16:59 allows Amy to add monsters at will to your game 16:59 <[Demo][srn]> like more than slex already is 16:59 dungeon master mode 17:00 <[Demo][srn]> thankfully i dont have that on and i think my 8k point 3.6.1 run was half as long as it needed to be 17:00 [hdf-us] [nh361] Demo (Mon Hum Fem Cha), 24 points, T:1042, fell into a pit 17:00 <[Demo][srn]> hopefully that should do the trick 17:00 cool 17:00 alright time to get the kid, see you all later 17:00 <[Demo][srn]> bye 17:00 thats not the soul of the trophy :v 17:01 <[Demo][srn]> theres too many variants 17:01 <[Demo][srn]> any soul it had died 17:01 <[Demo][srn]> i do wanna see tariru get king of the world though 17:02 that will probably happen 17:02 first KOTW since stth 17:02 <[Demo][srn]> when did stth do it? 17:02 zid, the original design goal was that the attack doesn't know anything specific about the shield. Shouldn't this be symmetrical? The shield doesn't know anything about the attack made to it, so how's it know it's a projectile? 17:02 2014 or so? 17:02 for the last time 17:02 <[Demo][srn]> ok so not that long ago 17:02 Lymia: You want a middle manager? 17:02 mainly because he was the only one able to ascend grunthack 17:02 <[Demo][srn]> heh 17:02 I don't mean to contradict your design concerns (they aren't illegitimate), they are also legitimate, but there is another side to the problem. 17:03 back then we had less variants, of course 17:03 Such an interaction is between two objects, and it'd really be arbitrary which one it "belongs" to. 17:03 If the shield handle it, then when you get 6 different attacks that do something to shield, now shield.rs has grown a switch statement on the source attack, opps. Exactly the thing I want to avoid. 17:04 Lymia: Okay think of it this way, acid doesn't affect 900 materials, one day we release a patch and it affects a new material we add 17:04 it's very clear whether it's a property of the spit or the material, in that case 17:07 gee whiz this dungeon is RIFE with floating eyes 17:07 -!- raisse\splat has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:08 i've found something like 8 or 9 in the past 3 levels 17:12 I think the "plan" I'd go with for with my current design for this interaction would be that "shield blocks projectile" is it's own type of thing that hooks an attack hitting an entity in general, and creates a new event that is hooked by an interaction "acid corrodes metal shield" is the same type of thing, that then uses the event to further refine the interaction. There are probably other approaches that work with advantages and 17:12 disadvantages. 17:12 I'll note that this isn't much past "basic language features", it's a hash map of function pointers basically. 17:13 So a middleman 17:13 NethackShieldAcidProjectileFactoryFactory :D 17:13 !tell AmyBSOD Sorry the demon swarm happened to you, you actually found something I totally missed. I was using the randomteleportlevel() function, which is biased toward nearby levels, and has a good chance of not teleporting the monster to a new level at all. I changed it to a simple rn2 check for now, that should be nicer for people to deal with. 17:13 Will do, AntiGulp! 17:13 That is a failing of Java in particular, thankfully :D 17:14 related oblig: http://bash.org/?946461 17:14 <[Demo][srn]> u missed the \srn AntiGulp 17:14 AntiGulp is ito tho 17:14 Oops, my messages must not have been going through to her :( 17:14 oh nevermind 17:14 <[Demo][srn]> in his !tell 17:14 sorry 17:15 right 17:15 <[Demo][srn]> yeah 17:15 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 12469 points, T:11169, poisoned by a vampire bat 17:15 <[Demo][srn]> not to say he shouldnt be in srn tho :P 17:15 I'm srn's worst player 17:15 it's k 17:15 :p 17:15 [hdf-us] [nh361] dizzylizzy (Ran Gno Mal Neu), 2601 points, T:3829, killed by a Green-elf 17:17 !tell AmyBSOD\srn Apparently my earlier message didnā€™t go through, aaagh. I *always* appreciate feedback! Sorry the demon swarm happened to you, you actually found something I totally missed. I was using the randomteleportlevel() function, which is biased toward nearby levels, and has a good chance of not teleporting the monster to a new level at all. I changed it to a simple rn2 check for now, that should be nicer for people to deal with. 17:17 Will do, AntiGulp! 17:19 -!- rebatela has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:19 AntiGulp, it probably worked out for her :D 17:19 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) killed Croesus, on T:43501 17:19 She drank a cursed potion of gain level and skipped the whole mess 17:20 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 17:20 Lol niiiiiice 17:20 I feel less bad now 17:21 -!- Tariru has joined #hardfought 17:21 <[Demo][srn]> also AntiGulp why did you make plane of water even more annoying? :P 17:21 Because I make a lot of questionable decisions :P 17:21 Like the fact that infernals canā€™t complete the game AGAIN 17:24 -!- jonadab has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:24 <[Demo][srn]> how/what? 17:24 <[Demo][srn]> whats the deal with infernals anyway? 17:24 zid, I will point out that this probably makes the global property of shields blocking projectiles and, say, an reflection intrinsic the same kind of thing. And that engulfing is a thing which... Engulfing does a lot of things. 17:25 Nethack was not built around a core abstraction, so its interactions won't follow any nicely. Best way to deal with that, IMO, is the most flexible thing you can use, and isn't a total mess. 17:25 Infernals take damage from silver, and cannot handle it. I forgot that the bell of opening is silver. This is after fixing a bug a few days ago where they auto-failed the quest because their leader was automatially hostile to them. Basically, infernals are an endless source of bugs for me. 17:26 [hdf-us] [fh] Nu (krm26) (Arc Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed amulet of life saving", on T:50446 17:26 wished for "blessed amulet of life saving" is never a good sign 17:26 <[Demo][srn]> yeah 17:26 <[Demo][srn]> nor is fh endgame 17:26 <[Demo][srn]> lol 17:28 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 558 points, T:1937, killed by a wererat 17:28 -!- jonadab has joined #hardfought 17:28 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v jonadab] by ChanServ 17:30 !t tell K2 SpliceHack 3.2 is ready whenever. Itā€™s even more bug fixes :/ 17:30 !tell K2 SpliceHack 3.2 is ready whenever. Itā€™s even more bug fixes :/ 17:30 Will do, AntiGulp! 17:34 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 574 points, T:886, killed by a dwarf 17:38 [hdf-us] [nh361] dizzylizzy (Bar Hum Fem Neu), 1299 points, T:1699, killed by a dwarf 17:39 [hdf-us] [nh361] amelie (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 496 points, T:1152, killed by a gnome zombie, while frozen by a potion 17:44 Junethack: New user theinvisiblewatcher registered! https://junethack.net/user/theinvisiblewatcher 17:53 AntiGulp version change because of save break? 17:53 K2: Message from AntiGulp at 2018-06-11 17:30 EDT: SpliceHack 3.2 is ready whenever. Itā€™s even more bug fixes :/ 17:53 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) killed Medusa, on T:44537 17:54 Yeah, unfortunately. Some of the most critical bugs fixed required breaking saves. 17:55 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:04 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1375 18:09 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) was given Cleaver, on T:1735 18:17 AntiGulp no worries. just making sure before i start pulling updates 18:18 [hdf-us] [fh] Nu (krm26) (Arc Hum Fem Law) defeated Vlad the Impaler, on T:51423 18:18 Gotcha! Thank you! 18:18 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 18:20 [hdf-us] [fh] Nu (krm26) (Arc Hum Fem Law) genocided green slimes, on T:51429 18:22 'Fixed by changing the appearance of shield of resonance to a vibrating mithril shield.' 18:22 thats some captain america lore right there 18:22 neat 18:24 oh so it actually transformed into a shield of reflection then :o 18:25 ;) 18:25 I wasnā€™t sure, but Iā€™ve been meaning to change it to something else for a while. It seems too mean to have something that could give reflection (arguably the most useful property in the game) or sonic resistance (meh). So yeah captain america shield time! 18:26 K2: I just had a game of sporkhack crash on me, when I pressed recover it just threw me back to the create character screen. 18:26 ok one sec 18:26 get out of dgl completely please 18:26 Alright, done. 18:27 * stenno\ito secretly hands K2 the promised money for preventing Tariru to get KotW 18:27 sssshshhhhh 18:27 oh did i type that out loud 18:28 Tariru can you tell me what you were doing and where you were right before the crash? 18:28 I was at the end of the valkyrie quest. 18:28 Right before it crashed, a fire giant had just thrown a boulder at me, which flew past me and hit the edge of the map. 18:28 ok 18:28 so three things (last is bad) 18:29 1) we have a coredump 18:29 2) your backup save is less than an hour old 18:29 3) there's a key file missing for me to be able to recover to your last point 18:29 By last point, you mean the backup save? 18:29 this happened to my sporkhack game the other day, i had to go through votd and gehennom all over again 18:30 Or the point where it crashed? 18:30 last point as in where you were when it crashed 18:30 so i can reincorporate your backup save but it'll be from about an hour ago 18:30 i recommend saving your game at key milestones 18:30 Alright, that's still good. 18:31 Yeah, that would probably help. 18:31 I should have done that after I randomly found grayswandir. 18:31 Tangles has been able to knock out the bugs we've found so far, hoping we can get this one also 18:31 ... hahah 18:31 I hope I still have that. 18:31 But I might not, it was fairly recent... 18:31 of course, grayswandir 18:31 lets see 18:32 ok try now please Tariru 18:33 That's working now, thanks! 18:33 welcome! 18:33 Sadly, I'm back before grayswandir. 18:33 :/ 18:33 If I thought anything was going to crash on me in Junethack, I would have guessed SLEX. 18:34 need to look at why this variant isnt keeping .0 file 18:34 But I managed to get through that bug free. 18:34 amazing 18:34 alright lets look at this coredump 18:36 interesting 18:36 Well, I'm off to bed now, see you all, and thanks for the help again K2. 18:36 anytime 18:36 gnite Tariru 18:36 -!- Tariru has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36 -!- greqrg has joined #hardfought 18:37 http://termbin.com/2koh <---- backtrace 18:39 Oof, is that an fov-related segfault? 18:40 perhaps 18:40 sporkhack is getting a lot more play this year than years past, the bugs are starting to shine through 18:41 which is good 18:43 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) consulted the oracle for the first time, on T:5273 18:46 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 18:47 ok, bills paid 18:47 bleh 18:47 are you the de facto maintainer of the unmaintained variants now 18:47 grunthack and sporkhack, yeah I suppose so 18:47 me and Tangles 18:48 neawt 18:48 neat even 18:48 what i'd like to do someday, if I ever gain the skill and knowledge to do so, is to combine grunthack and sporkhack, rebase it on 3.6.1 and call it 'EvilHack' 18:48 along with a couple new bits 18:49 yeah that sounds really evil indeed 18:49 but i consider grunthack as an evil superset of spork 18:49 in my opinion, sporkhack is harder than grunthack 18:49 hmm 18:50 grunthack is a great warm up for sporkhack 18:50 if you can do well at gh, you're mostly ready for sporkhack 18:51 astral in sporkhack is no joke 18:52 pretty sure that i reached sporkhacks asc run, but maybe not even grunthack gehennom 18:53 i think grunthacks early game is more difficult (read: zombies and werefoo and chameleons) 18:54 but sprkhacks early is also hard in more subtle ways 18:54 and resources are scarce 18:54 its a mix really 18:55 i like sporkhacks hardness more than grunthack hardness 18:55 (no innuendo intended) 18:55 too late 18:56 maybe because i like unnethack a lot and it takes a few things from spork 18:56 ah yeah 18:56 bhaak had/has a thing for sporkhack 18:56 and a few of those changes are in vanilla now 18:56 orctown ;) 18:56 yay... 18:57 imagine scream stun nazgul in vanilla :P 18:57 oh god 18:57 lol 18:57 thank that you can genocide them 18:57 they are nerfed in unnethack already because i threw a medium tantrum after a related astral splat 18:57 ugh 18:58 there should be a way that allows you to make yourself deaf 18:58 earmuffs 18:58 we have a blindfold, why not earmuffs 18:58 -!- deadnoob_ has joined #hardfought 18:58 you should be able to put carrots in your ears 18:58 or spell of nagging spouse 18:58 also splicehack has sonic resistance 18:58 Splicehack has earmuffs 18:58 lol 18:58 Me too 18:58 am I a nethack variant now 18:59 that would be the logical conclusion 18:59 zidhack 18:59 do you really have earmuffs tho 18:59 lol 18:59 somewhere? 18:59 Anything is earmuffs if you're brave enough, anyway 18:59 two cats and a piece of rope 18:59 fair enough i guess 19:00 two ferral cats 19:00 one male, one female in heat 19:00 are ferral cats made out of iron 19:00 I think so 19:00 feral 19:00 yeah i cant fuckin spell 19:00 :D 19:00 And you also can't grammar, rip 19:00 might as well have you put down 19:00 * stenno\ito neither, but that doesn't stop him 19:01 english is only my first language and all 19:01 we'll take you to the shelter tomorrow 19:01 but... but... i still have nethack games open 19:02 itym fucken 19:02 D: 19:02 "Ah yes, certainly Mr. Mass murderer, we can give you a stay on your life without parole sentence, I didn't know you had a D&D session next week" 19:02 pj 19:02 oh 19:02 Lawyers in K2's world 19:02 -!- deadnoob has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:02 hey whatever works 19:04 K2: oh btw in vanilla 3.6.1, a deafening row actually deafens you and it shows up in the status line even 19:04 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:7529 19:04 so you can actually deafen yourself 19:04 oh neat 19:04 magic trap too sometimes? 'deafening roar' 19:06 cursed unicorn horn works too 19:06 neat 19:06 a song for the deaf... that is for you 19:06 lol 19:07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9zeb5BfpgE 19:08 anyway way past bedtime 19:08 gn hf 19:09 gnite stenno\ito 19:16 quick, draw a moustache on him 19:17 zid: I moustache you what you mean by that comment. 19:23 -!- AntiGulp has quit [Quit: explodes into confetti] 19:24 -!- tacco| has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:25 I had a friend, he wasn't sure if he'd like having a moustache 19:25 but it really grew on him 19:26 "There's a man at the door with a moustache" 19:26 "Tell him I've already got one" 19:27 "There's an invisible man at the door asking for you" 19:27 "Tell him I can't see him!" 19:27 dizzylizzy\ito: Did your friend get eaten in the dark? 19:28 she came over and watched my first junethack ascension but is too busy with finals to actually play rn 19:28 I mean the friend whose moustache grue on him. 19:28 -!- tacco| has joined #hardfought 19:29 die 19:29 christ jonadab 19:30 zid: Aww, lettuce have our fun. If you hang out in NetHack related channels, puns are going to turnip now and then. 19:30 i think i love you 19:31 Kill him with fire 19:31 Sometimes I worry that my puns are too obscure. 19:32 I think the worst I ever perpetrated was the one about the vile pacifist gangster who lived on a commune in Montana. 19:33 (Jabba the Hutterite.) 19:33 -!- tacco| has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:33 Though the worst pun I've ever _heard_ is probably the one about the famous Viking explorer who came back from a long trip to discover his name was no longer listed on the village register. 19:33 -!- tacco| has joined #hardfought 19:34 [hdf-us] [dnh] Tmasher (Bin Dro Fem Non), 4 points, T:302, killed by a fox 19:34 (When he went to complain, the magister was quite apologetic. "I'm very sorry. I must have taken Lief off my census.") 19:39 <@luxidream> !tell AntiGulp I used blessed magic mapping and a stethoscope all around the perimeter. There is no secret door to see the Lord of Cards. 19:39 @luxidream: Message from AntiGulp at 2018-06-11 16:21 EDT: Thanks for letting me know about the QA, bug logged. There should be some secret doors in the cartomancer quest. Yeah, wisps are nasty 19:39 Will do, @luxidream! 19:44 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) was given their Quest, on T:12895 19:50 [hdf-us] [dnh] Tmasher (Nob Dro Mal Neu), 236 points, T:914, killed by a sewer rat 19:54 [hdf-us] [un] k2 (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed the Oracle, on T:17454 20:01 [hdf-us] [nh361] dizzylizzy (Kni Hum Mal Law) had Excalibur thrown at him by some watery tart, on T:3886 20:02 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed Cerberus, on T:14261 20:05 You hear a message from the dizzylizzy! "...ck Sokoban 2a in its a..." You can't make out the rest of the message 20:05 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:14717 20:10 [hdf-us] [dnh] Tmasher (Nob Inc Fem Law), 714 points, T:1120, killed by a kitten 20:14 -!- stenno\ito has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:34 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 20:38 -!- deadnoob_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42 [hdf-us] [nh361] jmcunx (Bar Orc Fem Cha), 0 points, T:19, killed by a water moccasin 20:44 [hdf-us] [nh361] dizzylizzy (Kni Hum Mal Law), 7791 points, T:7239, killed by a gold golem 20:44 fudge 21:07 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed Thoth Amon, on T:17723 21:09 [hdf-us] [fh] FUQ (Demo) (Val Dwa Fem Law) received Mjollnir from Tyr, on T:7560 21:12 [hdf-us] [spl] bouquet (Dra Mer Fem Neu), 832 points, T:2086, killed by a rothe 21:13 bouquet 21:13 psrpgiwf 21:13 haha 21:13 [hdf-us] [nh361] hypnotist (Mon Hum Fem Cha) killed the Oracle, on T:17700 21:15 [hdf-us] [nh361] jmcunx (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1193 points, T:3683, killed by a giant spider 21:19 -!- rebatela has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:19 -!- rebatela has joined #hardfought 21:20 -!- AntiGulp has joined #hardfought 21:24 [hdf-us] [fh] FUQ (Demo) (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "Blessed +2 fixed greased silver dragon scale mail", on T:9192 21:25 [hdf-us] [fh] FUQ (Demo) (Val Dwa Fem Law) heard a rumor from The Oracle, on T:9244 21:27 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) became the Glory of Arioch, on T:19904 21:28 -!- rebatela has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33 -!- tacco| has quit [] 21:34 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) made her first wish - "uncursed magic marker", on T:45796 21:34 -!- MiseryMyra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:38 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +2 speed boots", on T:45818 21:38 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +2 gauntlets of power", on T:45821 21:44 -!- MiseryMyra has joined #hardfought 21:44 -!- QueenDairy has joined #hardfought 21:47 [hdf-us] [nh361] Eleven (Bar Hum Fem Neu) entered Gehennom, on T:46039 21:56 -!- AntiGulp has quit [Quit: AntiGulp] 22:03 -!- AntiGulp has joined #hardfought 22:03 -!- AntiGulp has quit [Client Quit] 22:11 <[Demo][srn]> rocket propelled fire giants 22:13 [hdf-us] [fh] FUQ (Demo) (Val Dwa Fem Law) defeated Lord Surtur, on T:12488 22:43 [hdf-us] [dnh] noty (Bar Vam Mal Cha) killed the Grue, on T:23952 22:44 -!- greqrg has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44 [hdf-us] [xnh] Silver2195 (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:10816 22:45 <[Demo][srn]> does grue kill count as medusa? 22:47 quick, revive her 22:48 -!- [Demo][srn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49 gay u freenode 22:49 -!- [Demo][srn] has joined #hardfought 22:50 <[Demo][srn]> losing power tomorrow and freenode doesnt like aws IPs to run my bot 22:52 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 22:54 -!- Menche has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54 -!- Menche_ has joined #hardfought 22:56 -!- Menche_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56 -!- Menche__ has joined #hardfought 23:01 -!- deadnoob_ has joined #hardfought 23:01 -!- Menche__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:04 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 23:05 [Demo][srn]: Yes re: Grue. 23:05 -!- deadnoob has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05 <[Demo][srn]> ok good 23:06 (Double-checked the code, the "killed challenge" bit is raised for both) 23:06 -!- Menche has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 23:07 Technically, I guess that means the "stoner" trophies are misnamed. 23:09 [hdf-us] [nh13d] Demo (Val Fem), 3785 points, T:1890, blaze of fire 23:10 <[Demo][srn]> cool and good 23:14 -!- Demo[srn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14 -!- [Demo][srn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22 [hdf-us] [dnh] monstergrin (Ana Elf Fem Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:15826 23:24 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:30 [hdf-us] [fh] icebox (IceBox) (Val Hum Fem Cha) defeated Vlad the Impaler, on T:49621 23:41 [hdf-us] [fh] Nu (krm26) (Arc Hum Fem Law) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:53261 23:57 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]