00:05 [hdf-us] [fh] ahrimen (Val Dwa Fem Law), 52404 points, T:5780, killed by a gray unicorn 00:18 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:19 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #hardfought 00:25 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 00:26 -!- stenno is now known as Guest21880 00:30 -!- Guest21880 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:33 [hdf-us] [fh] ahrimen (Val Dwa Fem Law), 29126 points, T:1944, killed by a healer called "Bogdan" 00:34 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:46102 00:35 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:46112 00:40 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) performed the invocation, on T:46366 00:55 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:57 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 01:00 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed the high priest of Moloch, on T:46909 01:00 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:46909 01:05 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:47104 01:06 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 01:06 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:47203 01:06 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:47258 01:10 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:47864 01:14 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:19 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:48920 01:20 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:26 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 01:26 -!- stenno is now known as Guest26356 01:31 -!- Guest26356 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:34 <@Winsalot> !tell LarienTelrunya: https://pastebin.com/78HYUvxM pressing r takes me back to hardfought menu. Is there still hope? 01:34 Will do, @Winsalot! 01:42 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:45 !tell Winsalot ugh... I have no idea 01:45 LarienTelrunya: Message from Tariru at 2018-04-25 17:57 EDT: I got a "can't place branch!" error while entering level 71. Looks like a branch still managed to generate though. 01:45 LarienTelrunya: Message from @Winsalot at 2018-04-26 01:34 EDT: https://pastebin.com/78HYUvxM pressing r takes me back to hardfought menu. Is there still hope? 01:45 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 01:46 !tell Tariru yes, the branch should be force-generated anyway; this can happen if there is no regular floor to put the branch on 01:46 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 01:46 K2: are you here? apparently Winsalot got a slex crash on hdf-eu :( did a core dump get generated? if yes, I hope that it gives a useful backtrace 01:48 <@Winsalot> Btw, what happened is I saved the game. Then decided to play a little more and starting slex took me to title screen. Then I got sad, quit and then started slex again. Then I got that message. 01:48 @Winsalot: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2018-04-26 01:45 EDT: ugh... I have no idea 01:48 gaaaaaaaaah 01:49 and of course I can't view it in jettyplay because there's no java installed on this PC :( 01:50 well there's one thing we could attempt: load it in tty mode 01:53 aak, Java 01:53 * NCommander shivers 01:55 Winsalot: are you still here? you could try to load the save in tty mode 01:59 what the fuck 01:59 something is really screwy with slex on hdf-eu right now 02:02 my suspicion is that saving the game while hallucinating messes up curses mode 02:04 well SHIT, it's true 02:04 morning 02:04 hallucination + loading the game in curses mode = probtype error 02:06 Winsalot: well shiiiiit, looks like you discovered a fatal bug with the curses interface :(( 02:07 with "fatal" meaning "corrupts/erases savegames" here, so I urgently need to fix that 02:07 great, just what I needed! 02:07 now I have to figure out how to fix this shit 02:07 i.e. make it so that no future games can be corrupted by this bug 02:09 just tested, happens on esm too so I can use that as a testing environment 02:24 <@Winsalot> Slex bugs are just as crazy as its features 02:25 sorry :( I'm afraid your savegame got eaten, and I can't seem to stop it from happening either 02:26 the game tries to display hallu item names before the item list is correctly initialized! GAAAAAAH 02:26 why is there no flag that I can test for, which is true only after everything has been initialized correctly 02:27 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 02:27 -!- stenno is now known as Guest46637 02:28 this stuuuuuuuupid curses mode inventory with its insistence of being displayed even before things are initialized! 02:30 just tested, happens on the windows curses version as well 02:30 -!- Guest46637 has quit [Changing host] 02:30 -!- Guest46637 has joined #hardfought 02:30 so it's really every curses version of slex that is plagued by this bug :( 02:30 -!- Guest46637 is now known as stenno 02:32 <@Winsalot> I just dont understand how does IBMgraphics work fine, while curses barely works. Don't they just display same information? 02:32 hey! I think I managed to fix it! 02:33 yep, the fix I just made for the esm server works and lets me restore savegames in curses mode while hallucinating! 02:33 now I have to make a bugfix commit for K2 02:33 Winsalot: The curses interface insists on permanently displaying the inventory. Even during the process of loading your save, it already tries to display stuff there. 02:34 Before the items are initialized correctly. This leads to errors when you're hallucinating. 02:34 Because the game randomly generates items for the hallucinated appearances, and chokes because the probability tables aren't set up yet, hence it crashes. 02:39 !tell K2 Critical bugfix update on the slex-2.1.7 branch. Winsalot's save is probably corrupted but at least this fix should prevent it from happening in the future. 02:39 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 02:40 !tell K2 The bug was that curses mode would choke when trying to restore a game while hallucinating, because it tried to display hallucinated items before the item tables were set up properly; the commit fixes that. 02:40 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 02:40 LarienTelrunya: K2 should have a backup of the save I think 02:40 well, let's hope so! 02:41 ola 02:42 yeah, when Winsalot saved, it should have made a full savegame file, and only the act of trying to load it in curses mode caused the errors, so if a copy of that save exists, it should load fine after the bugfix commit is applied 02:42 yay bugs 02:43 hi mcw! would you like to wake up, boot your PC, join the chat and the first thing you see is that a player of your variant has a corrupted savegame? because that's what happened to me today, yaaaaaaaay :D 02:43 good thing this one was fairly easy to track down 02:44 -!- MysteryMyra has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:44 and also good thing we discovered it before junethack starts! 02:45 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:48 LarienTelrunya: I wake up, myPC is already booted, I sit down, no one has played my variant. 02:48 LarienTelrunya: not sure which is sadder! :p 02:49 aww :( you should release it and do some advertising to get players! 02:49 complete with *bundlebundlebundle* of course! 02:50 mcw: You have a variant? 02:50 No 02:50 Not yet! 02:50 It was metaphorical FIQ 02:56 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 02:56 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 03:05 mmm, you feel so clean when you eliminate all -pedantic -Wextra -Wall -W warnings from a cu <3 03:09 wut I just realized that redist_attr (called when you feel like a new man) doesn't affect INT and WIS for some reason??? wtf 03:10 Changes your body, not your brain? # but Cha 03:10 Men already have the most wisdom 03:10 Cha is body-based as well 03:10 Given you lose some when you get hives 03:10 well I want to be able to gain INT from that effect, so I'll change it in slex :D 03:10 It's a very ill-defined mix of body and brain 03:11 also, why does life saving work if you got decapitated but not if your brain was sucked? you should still be decapitated after life saving and therefore die again! 03:11 The inventors of AOLSes knew about decapitation but not mind flayers 03:13 LarienTelrunya, I assume the AoLS releases a roll of magic duck tape and stiches everything back together 03:13 AoLS can't replace what's not there to begin with. 03:14 [hdf-us] [xnh] Grasshopper (Wiz Hum Fem Neu) killed Orcus, on T:63623 03:14 mcw, please don't ship code that has that as the default in Makefiles because the odds are you WILL generate a warning on some architecture (like S390) and then we have to patch your makefiles in distros. 03:14 Isn't it called z/400 now or something even sillier? 03:14 LarienTelrunya, the odds are you're not properly reinitializing curses madness due to hallucation. 03:15 Linux TTY shit is ... !@#! 03:15 Pinkbeast, we still call it S390 in Debian and Ubuntu 03:15 LarienTelrunya, when I was watching your stream, I only saw a bunch of diamonds. 03:15 NCommander: of course not, only in Debug mode. 03:16 NCommander: what, I don't remember streaming anything :D 03:16 LarienTelrunya, well, watching on hdf-eu 03:16 NCommander: I ought to know that but good, I still call it S/390 03:16 oh you mean it showed garbage characters? hitting s a couple of times on your end may fix that 03:16 NCommander: if the stream looks funky hit 's' 03:16 ^ 03:16 NCommander: you can try now, I loaded my save 03:16 LarienTelrunya, well is that what it's doing now? Or is the terminal just going "hahahah fuck you" 03:17 it has something to do with character encoding 03:17 NCommander: it's because the options have a symset set that you don';t support 03:17 I think? 03:17 ALSO WHAT THE FUCK LEV_COMP???? 03:17 we should just use utf-8 everywhere 03:17 Can someone please explain to me why the fuck "center" is valid for a coordinate??? 03:17 1531 coordinate : coord 03:17 1532 | p_register 03:17 1533 | RANDOM_TYPE 03:17 1534 { 03:17 1535 current_coord.x = current_coord.y = -MAX_REGISTERS-1; 03:17 1536 } 03:18 * mcw rages 03:18 NCommander: AoLS works against cessation of existence 03:18 man, monsters surely don't generate on this dungeon level 03:18 NCommander: I loaded my hdf-eu save in case you want to look; if it still looks funky, press s a few times and maybe it will help :) 03:18 ^ FIQ: explain ^ 03:18 actually i guess i could do confused blessed remove curse..? 03:18 FIQ, they do? Then why isn't genocide AoLS preventable? 03:19 Well ... actually, now that I think about it 03:19 don't you get saved, and then non-exist again? 03:19 You come back, then die again 03:19 yeah 03:19 stenno: xnethack? aosdict inserted some code that makes monsters generate less often if you spend a long time on a level, I think 03:19 NCommander: I was referring to porting to 0 03:19 YANI: If you are wearing an "oChange and get genocided, you permamorph into a random creature 03:20 (and lose the ") 03:20 Which makes you cease to exist 03:20 ah noted 03:20 anyway got my holy water now 03:20 time for some wishes 03:21 * NCommander notes the scroll of genocide might be the single most powerful item in NetHack 03:21 It literially rewrites reality to retgone a monster. 03:21 FIQ: you absolute unit, tell me why "center" is valid for coordinates. 03:21 NCommander: as for curses, it's just that slex messes with things before proper initialization of the game 03:22 mcw: Why not? 03:22 center would presumably be between 0 and COLNO/ROWNO 03:22 LarienTelrunya, ever think about implementing a spellbook of genocide? It might playing a SLEX extinctionist viable :) 03:22 I have no idea why this is useful, mind you 03:22 FIQ: center is not translated to an int though 03:22 Or is it... 03:22 But I wouldn't call the existence of it bad 03:22 FIQ: I mean in lev_comp .y/l 03:22 NCommander: spellbook of genocide has existed in slex for a looooooong time! but it only gives single species genocides, have fun casting it thousands of times :D 03:22 mcw: yes I figured you meant in a .des 03:23 LarienTelrunya, there are scripts for that. What you'd just need to do is have a reusable amensia source 03:23 FIQ: coordinate is defined as coord|p_register|RANDOM_TYPE 03:23 None of which allow center, unless I'm going crazy. 03:23 LarienTelrunya, cast, let Pw recharge, repeat. When the book gets too faint, use amenisa to remove it from z, and re-read. 03:23 mcw: I don't speak lex/yacc 03:23 Sorry 03:23 slex spellbooks work differently, they have charges, so you can just recharge it when it runs out 03:23 Never looked at the level system 03:24 spellbook of spellbook charging :P 03:24 plus casting a spell will increase its spell memory a bit 03:24 FIQ: does anyone speak lex/yacc? 03:24 No 03:24 yeah a spellbook of charging exists too! 03:24 Grumble 03:24 LarienTelrunya, ... that sounds surprisingly user friendly. 03:24 But I haven't looked at the .l/.y in nethack 03:24 What's the catch 03:24 So I can't help you 03:24 paxed and lorimer has messed wit hthem in the past I think 03:24 I speak some flex and bison 03:24 *them 03:24 NCommander: are you referring to the spell memory bit or the spellbook of charging bit? 03:24 LarienTelrunya, yes. 03:24 :D 03:24 LarienTelrunya, did we find the bit of empathy you put in SLEX? 03:25 NCommander: this is just vanilla slash'em stuff 03:25 the spell memory increase upon casting is from SLASH'EM, and the charging spell will just auto-forget itself (set its memory to 0%) after you cast it a certain amount of times (but you can re-learn it with the book, and the book can also be charged :D) 03:25 Did we find the bit of empathy in SLASH'EM? 03:25 slex also doesn't have the mysterious force 03:25 * NCommander never played SLASH'EM 03:25 for the same reason 03:25 or at least not more than a few minutes 03:26 I like slashem 03:26 regular SLASH'EM has a fatal bug with hallucination (notice a theme? Winsalot's crash was also because of SLASH'EM hallucination shenanigans) and even though I filed a bugfix on their sourceforge page, nothing has ever happened 03:27 LarienTelrunya: congratulations 03:27 you're the new slash'em maintainer 03:27 SLASH'EM's dev team likely are sharing an amulet of restful sleep. 03:27 wat 03:27 if you find bugs in something 03:27 and push fixes to it 03:27 something that the original devs have abandoned 03:27 then congratulations 03:27 you are the maintainer now 03:27 ugh 03:27 FIQ isn't joking. I've been granted commit rights to a few projects because of that >.>; 03:28 well I guess we should at least patch SLASH'EM (all versions) on esm 03:28 oh and kerio should patch SLASHTHEM, I filed the same bugfix on its official github repo and nothing has happened there either :P 03:28 tell kerio about it 03:28 he'll probably push a fix 03:28 FIQ: did you see the pretty error messages I generate from my des parser? 03:29 FIQ: does he have write access to the repo? 03:29 LarienTelrunya: I told him about it 03:29 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:29 mcw: no 03:29 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/tubs/49654fc72e9e66449a2733c64e9bb2f1/raw/cc8f55ef8ee37f9cf677acdb10af875b587258a9/gistfile1.txt 03:29 FIQ: look at how pretty it is! 03:30 No more "syntax error"! 03:30 mcw: can you make this thing standalone 03:30 maybe I could use it sometime 03:30 FIQ: it already is 03:30 FIQ: idea is to make it like tubdown, 100% dependency free 03:30 It took me a while to figure out wtf the level parser meant with "syntax error" when I added magic chests 03:30 Yeah :-\ 03:31 in the end, apparently I had to specify spe on items 03:31 syntax error could basically be replaced with "lol go screw yourself" 03:31 didn't know that was mandatory 03:31 FIQ: And don't worry I'll add a nice C-wrapper around it so people don't need to touch yucky nasty C++ either! 03:31 mcw: :) 03:31 It's not a big deal to do 03:32 I pretty much just need to go through and add all the instructions now, which takes a bit of time but not much brains, alas I started work again yesterday so it will (hopefully) be Friday night/Saturday when I get the full parsing + validation completed. 03:33 Currently the parser/tokenizer can handle all of nh4 and slex's .des files 03:34 ♥ 03:35 so it doesn't choke over stuff like Cam-goal or Sco-strt? ;) 03:35 Nope, but this is just the tokenizer 03:35 The validator is still in-progress 03:35 Though I suspect Cam-goal passing the parser means it's fine 03:36 * mcw uses parser/tokenizer interchangeably 03:36 mcw: at one point around 2009ish I made a toy language for an irc bot 03:36 if there was some error 03:36 I printed "syntax error" 03:36 Nothing else 03:36 if I met mini me today I would have slapped him 03:37 I wrote three assemblers for my previous job 03:37 Who needs good error messages? It's enough to simply print 'An unknown error occurred.', the user will surely figure it out anyway... 03:37 I also had plans on making the thing able to multithread just because I could 03:37 And people loved my error messages 03:37 since the scripting language I used was single threaded 03:37 It made me the assembler king! 03:38 lol FIQ 03:38 Omg I could parse multidesthreads 03:38 by abusing timers 03:38 Bad FIQ, bad! 03:38 no treat for you. 03:38 what D: 03:38 timers are people too 03:39 you can't abuse them! 03:39 the scripting language had timers that ran even when the program itself wasn't running, that could execute things 03:39 so while the scripting itself was single threaded 03:39 you could in theory emulate multithreading with this 03:40 Of course you wouldn't actually gain any benefit performance-wise for this 03:40 But who cares about that 03:40 mcw, honestly, my problem with C++ is that compilers obsolete ridiciously fast 03:40 :P 03:40 ew multithreading in a single-threaded language 03:40 Which sucks because it's rare I get toplay with modern tools on legacy tools 03:40 try event loops instead like javascript 03:40 * NCommander dislikes C++ for a lot of other reasons, but that's my biggest headache at current 03:41 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/EventLoop 03:41 NCommander: At Apple we're encouraged to use all the latest features 03:41 stenno: the language I was messing with was mIRC scripting 03:41 it had way more issues than being single threaded... 03:41 NCommander: because we also develop clang/llvm 03:41 mcw, 1. you work at apple? 2. isn't that cause old features go to the bitbucket? :) 03:41 for example, such a basic construct as arrays was completely non-existent 03:41 NCommander: yeah, I work on GPU drivers 03:41 (mind you, this is a high-level language, not something like asssembly) 03:41 *assembly 03:41 single threading itself is not a problem 03:41 ok heh 03:41 stenno: right 03:41 mcw, ironically, I actually did a programming demo on NeXTstep last week as part of a retro review. Amazing how many people said "wow, that looks like Mac OS X" 03:42 yeah that doesn't sound like something i would to learn 03:42 i would like* 03:42 stenno: it was also really, really slow 03:42 like 03:42 you know how regex tends to be infamous for being slow 03:42 NCommander: to be fair I did my bit for communism and open source - I developed and wrote spec for Vulkan :p 03:42 mcw, I've dealt with the ARM GPU world 03:42 * NCommander twitches 03:42 well it wasn't really in that language (hell, sometimes it was the *fastest* way to do stuff) 03:42 NCommander: I wasn't at ARM before! 03:42 If I never have to peer into MESA again, I'll die happy. 03:42 Mali is shit 03:42 because everything else was also slow 03:42 nice 03:43 speaking of which, gotta get ready for work 03:43 NCommander: I was at Imagination (PowerVR), not that they had a great open-source track record... 03:43 oh wow mesa 03:43 WTF @ the comment before placebc() in ball.c! I thought gender studies were a recent phenomenon?! 03:43 The main issue is ip tech firms licence the shit to customers, and it's the customers who cry re: open sourcing. 03:43 why are they assuming the hero's gender to be female :D 03:43 at one point I repurposed the bot to work as an aggregator for a flash game I played for our guild 03:43 mcw, *wince*, do you known Tobin Davis by chance? He was the poor sod at Intel that worked at PowerVR to get Pouselbo (barely) usable on Ubuntu 03:43 this involved parsing json data 03:43 NCommander: not our fault 03:43 NCommander: Intel decided to hire a company called Tungsten Graphics 03:43 in a language that didn't have json parsing, and building one from scratch would be so slow that it would be unusable 03:43 NCommander: to do their own driver, they didn't use our driver 03:44 so I cheated 03:44 you wrote a json parser in regexp??? 03:44 NCommander: Tungsten graphics (now LunarG) were the biggest shitters in the world 03:44 relying on the order of things in the output being a certain way 03:44 mcw, yeah, he had access to the Tungsten source code on behalf on Intel cause he was a contractor, not Intel employee 03:44 so I could skip the parsing 03:44 but grab the data I wanted 03:44 this was... not very robust 03:44 I bought the man a lot of beer. 03:44 NCommander: That's why it was tied to a single Linux kernel 03:44 uh yeah 03:45 NCommander: the internal drivers build against whatever kernel you want (though depending on the driver, I think for Vulkan we used the dma_buf style fences, so you needed a 3.something kernel) 03:45 see this famous SO answer to the whole topic https://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454 03:45 But certainly not tied to a SPECIFIC kernel 03:45 I mean what the fuck? 03:45 mcw, it was actually somewhat possible to get it working for a few revisions. Canonical did some serious olympics to make that work. I was partially involved with that 03:45 stenno: it took around 5s to parse a 500KB-ish json output 03:45 NCommander: And yet everyone blames PowerVR. :) 03:45 the largest API request I did to the server 03:45 mcw, hah, a nameless ARM vendor wanted us to burn a kernel into ROM and then support Ubuntu 03:45 \o/ 03:46 this meant that the entire bot became unresponsive during this time 03:46 due to the nature of being single-threaded 03:46 NCommander: yeah the embedded world doesn't quite understand "open" source. 03:46 Or freedom :-\ 03:46 NCommander: where are you at now/ 03:46 ?* 03:46 stenno: and no I didn't parse it with regex 03:46 mcw, freelancer but my primary contract is working at the Hermes Center for Transparency 03:46 I just brought regex up to compare its performance 03:46 with the language in general 03:46 And no, I don't remember Tobin Davis, I knew a bunch of the mesa guys though like Ian Romanick and Jason Esktrand 03:46 regex is generally infamously slow 03:47 but in that language it was *fast* in comparision to the rest of things 03:47 mcw, Ian sounds familar. Probably know him in passing somewhat 03:47 FIQ: I once tried to write an end-to-end encryption system in mIRC... It didn't work too good :D 03:47 mcw, I'm not sure it's understanding opensource, it's more "embarassment" cause god 03:47 Some of the embedded code I saw ... *shiver* 03:47 NCommander: their code is shit? :p 03:47 Yeah 03:48 DSP that memmapped protected address space into /dev so the userland could drive it 03:48 mcw: I am pretty sure mIRC has native support for that nowdays 03:48 FIQ: dream ruiner :( 03:48 Also why would anyone use anything but irssi nowadays? :o 03:48 so you can reuse its stuff in the language 03:48 ah noted 03:48 That thing was a kernel exploiters dream. "I want to write page zero. OK!" 03:48 but yeah, writing it from scratch would be insane 03:48 FIQ: it wasn't very good 03:49 mcw: I look back at the code I wrote back in this time 03:49 FIQ: I think it took the history of the channel, and encoded the message using offsets into the history, but with some shared private key to decode the offsets 03:49 FIQ: I delete all my old code out of shame. :-) 03:49 Sometimes I look at it and think "hey that's pretty neat" 03:49 sometimes I think "what the fuck was I doing" 03:49 mcw, I think I have a few trees of TianoreCore sitting on my backup drive 03:49 Mostly because I have some awesome abuses against nature in there. 03:49 NCommander: To be fair, Apple is not awful re: open sourcing - llvm, clang, etc 03:50 mcw, no, but I dislike that Darwin still can't freestand post 10.4 03:50 * mcw shudders 03:50 * NCommander recently got NeXTstep to boot on a *slightly* more modern Darwin :) 03:50 heh 03:50 lol NCommander 03:50 I use a macbook and Windows with WSL as my main machine (at home) 03:50 * mcw is a frankenstein 03:50 monster 03:51 I fucking love WSL 03:51 I mean, that shit is mad genius 03:51 at some point i might shift to windows again 03:51 The dev blogs for it are amazing to read as well 03:51 mcw, http://nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4028&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 03:51 a sentence that i never though i would utter again 03:51 mcw, honestly, I'm unimpressed by WSL. Cygwin works better for day to day usage, and everything else, I actually need a VM. 03:52 Really? 03:52 Which bit is not impressive? 03:52 * mcw is confused 03:52 Shit just works yo 03:52 mcw, anything that needs to poke the kernel :) 03:52 Beyond what WSL implements. It's great for userland stuff 03:53 But the only stuff I tend to do that isn't running on Windows natively tends to run in ring 0 03:53 Oh yeah, but it's not linux, it's GNU/NT 03:53 Oh god stallman would be proud 03:54 * NCommander twiches 03:54 You brought up memories of volunteering at the FSF 03:54 Think about it, it's the stallman dream 03:54 A GNU userspace running on a !linux kernel. 03:54 ... so I've contributed code to Hurd >.> 03:54 Just a shame they beat herd to it :p 03:55 hurd herd 03:55 NCommander: I just love the fact that I can get a proper shell in Windows 03:55 NCommander: I almost never use X shit 03:55 mcw, cygwin is great for that, and I still use Win7 a LTO 03:55 *LOT 03:55 cygwin has the jankiest packages known to man 03:56 And you can't just yolo a .deb from somewhere 03:56 And half the stuff doesn't even compile 03:56 And you can't fork properly 03:56 I actually looked at how they implement fork() in cygwin 03:56 It's rather impressive/horrorific 03:56 There was UNIX Subsystem for Windows prior to WSL, which gave you real fork() 03:56 Aye 03:56 WSL will allow me to ssh into my stuff natively on windows 03:56 WSL gives you real fork() too ;) 03:57 the NT kernel had fork for years 03:57 this is basically the only thing I find it useful for personally 03:57 Going back to POSIX.1 environment for Windows NT. It just didn't include things like sockets. 03:58 NCommander: indeed, lcore.sys calls into the NT fork-with REAL COW!!!! when you invoke the fork syscall 03:58 FIQ: what editor do you primarily use? 03:59 emacs 03:59 Ah native windows version? 03:59 I am not on window 03:59 Oh no you use Linux on desktop right 03:59 s 03:59 * NCommander notes he's been rocking VSCode as of late 03:59 Sorry 03:59 NCommander: vscode is ace 03:59 I was just referring to whenever I happen to be stuck on a Windows system 03:59 I just wish it wasn't an electron app 03:59 NCommander: but I vim too much, the vim plugin is "ok" 03:59