00:19 <@luxidream> any way to turn off dyslexia mode in dyna 00:19 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/429857401005408257/dyna.png 00:20 <@luxidream> this april fool's joke isn't really that funny 00:21 <@on-call moderator> yes it is 00:21 <@on-call moderator> am I supposed to trust a nethack player to tell me what is and isn't funny? 00:22 <@luxidream> I don't mean what's happening on discord, I'm seriously wondering if this is an april fool's easter egg in dyna 00:23 <@on-call moderator> oh shit yeah that 00:23 <@on-call moderator> didn't even notice that lmao 00:43 [hdf-us] [dnh] Rune (Pri Inc Mal Neu) killed Sir Garland, on T:45520 00:46 <@mtf> ugh wtf 00:46 <@mtf> taking me 9 million years to get a sacrifice gift in FH 00:46 <@mtf> I know CM on my wiz, just spamming monsters... 00:46 <@mtf> cmon now, give me a gift! 00:47 <@luxidream> mtf? playing a caster? 00:47 <@luxidream> what 00:47 <@mtf> well 00:47 <@mtf> I wanted to get my z-score up 😛 00:47 <@mtf> so I need at least one wiz win 00:47 <@mtf> so far it's ridiculously easy 00:48 <@luxidream> FH wiz is pretty broke 00:48 <@luxidream> since you can actually cast 00:49 [hdf-us] [fh] ahrimen (Val Dwa Fem Law) heard a rumor from The Oracle, on T:2809 00:52 <@Pekkekke> hi is this the DCSS channel? 00:52 <@mtf> @Pekkekke nope, lol... 00:53 <@mtf> @Pekkekke it's #bot-commands 00:53 <@Pekkekke> got it thanks 00:54 <@luxidream> mtf, what's this about FH easy mode 00:54 <@luxidream> has FIQ finally caved to the casuals and made zeldahack? 00:56 <@mtf> lol, it's... interesting 00:56 <@mtf> first effects start to kick in around 2000 and 4000 turns 😛 00:59 <@mtf> man wtf 01:01 <@luxidream> hax? 01:01 <@mtf> fiq: did you put in an if pName == "MTF" && altar.sacrifice ? altar.noGiftForU() : altar.showerWithGifts(); 01:02 <@luxidream> no, FIQ just generates magicbane encased in solid rock on DL 1 every time you play a wizard 01:04 <@luxidream> you've just never noticed it because this is the first time you've ever played wiz 01:08 <@mtf> loool 01:08 <@mtf> I'm running out of food 😦 01:08 <@mtf> IO went through like 6 food rations 01:08 <@mtf> of create monster at 10 pp 01:08 <@mtf> w t f 01:09 <@mtf> am I that unlucky 01:10 <@luxidream> it happens 01:12 [hdf-us] [dnh] Rune (Pri Inc Mal Neu) killed the Nightmare, on T:46277 01:13 [hdf-us] [dnh] Rune (Pri Inc Mal Neu) destroyed Lich, the Fiend of Earth, on T:46296 01:16 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:71088 01:21 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) entered the Planes, on T:71347 01:21 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:71348 01:38 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:71980 01:44 For some reasons irssi highlights messages from luxidream. 01:44 Maybe it's because his nick is bright yellow colored. 01:45 [hdf-us] [slex] dolores (Zyb Ang Fem Cha) killed Ruggo the Gnome King, on T:7751 01:50 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:72749 01:51 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:72800 01:53 dude. gremlins on the plane of water are such a nuisance. 01:54 I think aosdict forgot to include the portal to astral in xnethack. 02:02 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed Famine, on T:73348 02:04 Congrats 02:05 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha), 2498042 points, T:73373, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/b/bouquet/xnethack/dumplog/1522083763.xnh.txt 02:06 yay 02:07 <@Lute> Good work 02:07 my 3rd wizard ascension but my first orc of any role. 02:07 totally going to be now, for reals 02:08 also to bed 02:13 [hdf-us] [nh] dograt (Bar Orc Mal Cha), 19467 points, T:3589, killed by a wolf 03:12 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 03:12 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 03:13 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:26 bouquet_: congrats! orcses ftw! 03:30 [hdf-us] [slex] dolores (Zyb Ang Fem Cha), 166228 points, T:11716, killed by being consumed by the contamination 03:30 wow that's an impressive death 03:48 <@Lute> tfw gf 03:54 not very literate 03:55 shortly afterwards I became more literate by reading a scroll of identify 03:59 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:19 -!- Crawldragon has quit [Quit: Derezzed] 04:22 -!- hpardis has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:45 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 05:20 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 05:43 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 05:43 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 05:45 <@Winsalot> Hi everyone, my pet ettin is hallucinating and turned on me. Is there a way to help him without putting him down? 06:32 hi 06:32 Hello FIQ, Welcome to #hardfought 06:33 -!- ProzacElf_ has joined #hardfought 06:37 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:40 <@Tone> @Winsalot Intelligent pets will use lizard corpses to cure confusion 06:40 <@Tone> Good to know if you ever have a pet arch lich that gets confusion 06:41 <@Tone> Not sure if ettins will use one though 06:42 <@Winsalot> Hm, but then I would need to have lizard corpses prepared in advance 06:44 <@Winsalot> That ghost I just killed. he had 2 bags of holding. 06:44 <@Winsalot> Weird dude 😃 06:44 just give it an unicorn horn 06:44 it will use it 06:45 <@Tone> Yeah monsters use unicorn horns too 06:45 <@Winsalot> And by giving you mean throw at him? 06:45 <@Tone> In vanilla I don't think it's always easy to get it back though 06:45 @Winsalot yeah 06:46 FIQ: easy mode? seriously? :P 06:46 <@Winsalot> Will I get my hoirn back? 06:46 LarienTelrunya: you should try it :-) 06:46 <@Tone> and nethack is pretty much all about preparing in advance for weird situations like that 😛 @Winsalot 06:46 well I looked at the source, you have 20k turns of overpoweredness and then DYWYPI :P 06:46 <@Winsalot> Well, my ettin is fine now, but it's good to know for the next time 06:46 @Winsalot no 06:46 use a spare 06:47 LarienTelrunya: not sure what you're talking about... sounds like a bug 06:47 need to look into that later 06:47 case 20000: + pline(msgc_fatal_predone, "You die from lack of challenge!"); + done(DIED, killer_msg(DIED, "lack of challenge")); 06:47 FIQhack allmain.c 06:47 why would I add slex random instadeaths 06:47 function easy_event() 06:47 https://github.com/FredrIQ/fiqhack/commit/a133e4a0dac87b7e4d6fb53262ffd447a914a285 06:48 silliness 06:48 well I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it, but it's there 06:48 ahh I see 06:48 or is that an april fools joke that will get removed tomorrow :P 06:48 someone must have hacked my github then 06:48 which is unfortunate 06:48 Such a shame. 06:48 Whoever would do such a thing? 06:48 make it so that easy_event() only fires if it's april fools day 06:49 idk 06:49 LarienTelrunya perhaps 06:49 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 06:49 DUnno if she is 1337 enough. 06:49 <@Winsalot> Ok, so I killed this samurai bones who had some pretty good gear. And I don't see anything that should have killed him (except maybe couple of trolls and gargoyle) which is making my kinda anxious 06:49 jonadab: true 06:49 @Winsalot usually bones leave a grave 06:50 that tells you 06:50 why would slex do silly things? it's a serious variant that has a reputation to defend 06:50 <@Tone> FIQ Actually does hallucination have an affect separate from standard confusion on monsters, in FIQhack? 06:50 @Tone monsters can't actually get hallucinating in FIQHack 06:50 if they do, the game gives an error 06:50 hallucination is replaced with confusion atm 06:50 <@Tone> That's pretty much how it works in vanilla, right? 06:51 yeah 06:51 black lights confuse monstersr 06:51 YASI: Hallucination should make monsters that can speak, say funny things. 06:51 *monsters 06:52 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:52 LarienTelrunya: considering that slex has a tendency to get mocked, I'm not sure how the reputation defense is going 06:52 well I didn't specify what slex's reputation actually is :P 06:53 generally I want slex to have such a bad reputation that people will want to know if it's really that bad and decide to give it a try 06:53 -!- elenmirie__ has joined #hardfought 06:53 -!- elenmirie__ is now known as elenmirie 06:53 ahh I see 06:53 verbalize("O great wise %s, how may I help defend us all against wicked adventurers who quest for the sacred Amulet?", hallumon()); 06:53 yeah that sounds about right 06:53 <@Tone> FIQ Is monster confusion the same in FIQhack or have you tweaked it at all to match it with player confusion? 06:53 @Tone so far, confusion and stunning remain like vanilla in FIQHack 06:54 i.e. confusion is completely crippling and stunning is harmless 06:54 jonadab: I read that as "O great wise ass" 06:54 elenmirie: hah 06:54 <@Tone> Cool, thanks 😄 06:55 elenmirie: It would be more like, for example, "O great wize mother-in-law" or "O great wise Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal" or cetera. 06:55 *wise 06:56 -!- elenmirie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:56 yes, I know what it is, that's just how I parsed it right then :) 06:57 <@Winsalot> What's better, cloak of drain resistance or cloak of protection for when I go to priest quest and get swarmed by wraiths? 06:58 ??? 06:58 4k and FIQHack's color schemes are identical 06:58 There's a cloak of drain res? 06:58 jonadab: Object properties 06:58 <@Winsalot> Object property 06:58 Ah. 06:58 Right. 06:59 !who 06:59 FIQ: [hdf-us] ttc1401 [slex] krm26 [xnh] 06:59 FIQ: [hdf-eu] winsalot [fh] elenmirie [xnh] 06:59 hm 07:00 <@Tone> @Winsalot Assuming drain resistance blocks their level drain attack, it should be slightly better 07:00 <@Tone> Unless you need the AC 07:00 <@Tone> I'd be comfortable with MC3 07:01 what is the cloak of drain res 07:01 like, the base item 07:01 <@Tone> oh that's right, it's more than just a cloak of drain res isn't it 07:01 and yes 07:01 Well, if it's e.g. a coarse mantelet of drain res, it's pretty much just a cloak of drain res. 07:02 drain res blocks level drain attacks 07:02 that's kinda its purpose 07:02 Indeed. 07:06 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:06 bouquet_: Congratulations on the asc! 07:07 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 45756 points, T:26328, petrified by touching a cockatrice corpse bare-handed 07:08 <@Winsalot> @FIQ it's cloak of displacement 😉 07:08 <@Winsalot> Btw, I don't think MC3 reduces level drain chance to 1/150 07:08 <@Winsalot> Cos a while ago I lost 2 levels to same wraith while wearing cloak of protection 07:09 <@Winsalot> maybe RNGesus is just angry at me... 07:10 oh 07:10 then definitely use that 07:10 displacement is MC3 in FIQHack 07:10 and yeah 07:10 drain res ignore MC 07:11 in FIQHack 07:11 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:11 <@Winsalot> omfg 07:11 <@Winsalot> Shoudl add that to wiki 07:11 it's there already 07:11 <@Winsalot> oh, you mean drain ignores MC? 07:11 Level gain changes 07:11 A new EXP formula was created, it's now generally much easier to gain new levels after level 10 07:11 Level draining melee is no longer MC-protected, and will now drain a full level 07:11 While level drained, you now gain significantly boosted EXP, and blessed full healing can now regains all lost levels, not just half of them (with the other half permanently lost) 07:11 yes 07:11 umm 07:11 I meant level drain yeah 07:11 lol 07:12 jonadab, FIQ: Regarding monster hallucination, it should perhaps be stronger than confusion, more akin to conflict. With confusion the monsters probably still know what type of monsters (and player) are around them, with hallucination they have no idea. 07:12 <@Winsalot> ok 07:12 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 07:12 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 07:12 aosdict: so jonadab can finally have his discord status? 07:12 Perhaps hallucinating intelligent monsters, if they can see more than 1 target, will opt not to attack. 07:13 <@Tone> oh, interesting changes 07:14 <@Tone> @Winsalot btw the MC3 chance should be 3/150 if it's the same as vanilla 343 07:14 3/153 actually 07:14 <@Tone> My life is a lie 07:14 <@Tone> Good to know 😄 07:15 I'm sure knowing this would have made you a far better playing 07:15 *player 07:15 <@Tone> I'm mentally tallying all of the deaths that could have been avoided 07:18 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 07:18 !who 07:18 LarienTelrunya: [hdf-us] ttc1401 [slex] 07:18 LarienTelrunya: [hdf-eu] winsalot [fh] elenmirie [xnh] 07:21 <@Winsalot> Ok, I think I might have unlocked nethack easy mode 07:21 <@Winsalot> WHich is charm monster spell 07:23 Heh 07:23 Charm monster is kind of OP, yes. 07:24 Very good against minotaurs. 07:24 <@Winsalot> Yeah, I have a pet titan now 07:24 <@Winsalot> Gonna introduce him to medusa 07:25 easy mode... within easy mode? 07:26 wait, you are playing fiqhack, right? 07:26 <@Winsalot> yes 07:26 <@Winsalot> Also have an army of gremlins in the making, as they entered water to follow me 07:26 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Sam Ang Mal Law) killed Raini, on T:5366 07:28 Hmm. Bones level without a grave _can_ happen, e.g., if the player dies in a location that is ineligible to be a grave (door, stairs, floor, water, ...) 07:28 Wrong channel? 07:28 Oh, yes,sorry. 07:28 <@Winsalot> This game never ceases to amaze me. Those are all tame gremlins 07:28 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/429965329284726794/Screenshot_2018-04-01_14-28-07.png 07:29 Find a polymorph trap. 07:29 <@Tone> I think Medusa will just turn your Titan into stone 07:30 <@Winsalot> Yeah, that could happen. I guess I will fuck her up myself then 07:32 aosdict: I think @Winsalot is playing on normal 07:32 yeah probably 07:37 D: 07:37 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 07:37 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 07:38 elenmirie needed more Charm Monster spell. 07:38 * elenmirie needed a lot of things 07:44 What are people's thoughts on a change for consistency that whenever a polymorph trap transforms _something_ successfully, it disappears? (This happens to the player but not to monsters at the moment.) 07:46 aosdict: ...? 07:46 Disappears? 07:46 You don't disappear if you polymorph 07:46 sorry, "it" meaning the trap 07:47 Ah 07:47 4k does this 07:47 -!- ProzacElf_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:48 slex makes it so that if the poly trap polymorphs a monster, there is a low chance that the trap is removed, so you do get several tries to turn your pet into something good but not infinite tries 07:48 then again, polymorphs are temporary there 07:48 have a chance of disappearing, yes 07:48 should also happen with teleport and levelport traps 07:48 IIRC the only way to make polymorphs permanent in SLASH'EM is to petrify the monster and then use stone to flesh 07:48 regardless of whether it's used by a player or a monster 07:56 Hmm, so not one-and-done, but instead it has a 1/4 chance of disappearing per use or something like that? 07:58 in 4k it depends on depth 07:58 deep in Gehennom it never disappears 08:08 FIQ: Have you done a symmetric merging of the trap code? 08:09 <[Demo]> make monsters set beartraps and landmines 08:11 <[Demo]> fiq, i notice when my green dragon was poison blasting shit sometimes it would feel weak which shows that monsters must have a str atribute, do they have a full set? can they like untrap traps, or try to, if their dex is high enough? 08:12 -!- Menche has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:15 [Demo]: if a monster is weakened, their max HP decreases 08:16 <[Demo]> oh 08:16 monsters have fake attributes atm 08:16 <[Demo]> so weakening by poision doesnt drain a str stat? 08:16 used for various stuff 08:16 <[Demo]> yo give em real ones and have them fuck around with traps from a disarming an rearming standpoint 08:16 it's basically to account for a future where monsters actually have attributes 08:16 basically 08:17 monster attributes are 11-12 across the board 08:17 with various exceptions 08:17 atm 08:17 <[Demo]> when will monsters be able to shop? 08:17 because I haven't implemented proper attributes yet 08:17 but they can raise and lower them like you can with items 08:17 GoP, et 08:17 c 08:18 [Demo]: maybe some day 08:18 * aosdict wonders how many bytes it would take to compress all the stats 08:18 aosdict: 4 08:19 with no spare bits 08:19 7 for str 08:19 5 for the other 5 08:19 if the stupid 100 str thing is removed, you could have 5 bits per stat 08:19 no you can keep the str thing 08:19 it is just enough 08:20 Wondering then in that case if it's worth storing monster dynamic attributes in an unsigned long int. 08:20 aosdict: but that kind of thing would really complicate stuff unneccessarily IMO 08:20 it's something I would do in Pokémon Crystal romhacking... 08:20 Just provide some getter and setter macros. 08:20 because space there is *precious* 08:20 <[Demo]> store them the same way ur attributes are stored 08:20 but like 08:20 we're talking 12KB wasted 08:20 it's nothing 08:21 <[Demo]> thought of all the ascii art titties u could store with that 08:21 1980s bill gates would like a word with you :P 08:21 <[Demo]> think 08:21 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Mal Law), 546 points, T:1472, killed by a kitten 08:21 for pokémon, the storage system takes up like 80% of the save 08:22 every bit saved in the pokémon struct is *precious* 08:22 this is nethack 08:22 we don't have this problem 08:22 it's silly to complicate things 08:22 <[Demo]> how much space do monsters take up to begin with in a save, like per monster? 08:23 -!- Tariru has joined #hardfought 08:23 * FIQ looks in FIQHack 08:25 FIQ: with all due respect, I think being very liberal with assigning space to structs can cause performance issues even on games like nethack 08:25 I think nethack4 experiences something like that 08:26 though monster stats aren't a great example; you could use an unsigned char for each stat, sure, and you would only gain 2 bytes per monster. 08:26 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 08:26 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 08:26 aosdict: NH4 makes very wasteful use of boolean variables in saves 08:26 it saves them as full bytes 08:26 <[Demo]> jesus 08:26 rather than compressing them into bytes 08:27 8 flags into a byte that is 08:27 except for some things 08:28 Then again, with nh3 bitfields at least, you could easily represent these monster attributes, take the 4 bytes, *and* be able to refer to each of them by name. 08:28 instead of using macros. 08:28 If nh3 can do that, I can only imagine nethack4 has something equal or better 08:29 it doesn't because there has not been a need 08:29 but yes 08:29 it wouldn't be hard 08:29 if you really wanted to 08:29 the game basically never access attribute fields directly 08:29 always goign through acurr and whatnot 08:30 <[Demo]> one day fiqhack will be ripe for the harvesting 08:30 aosdict: the problem sizewise in NH4 isn't memory 08:30 that should be a nonconcern 08:30 but save size 08:31 but using more bytes will not worsen things 08:31 because it uses diffs 08:31 for your benefit 08:32 I calculated the space a monster takes up in a save 08:32 <[Demo]> assuming with empty invent? 08:32 yes, and no mextra 08:33 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 453 points, T:833, killed by a rabid rat 08:33 <[Demo]> what did the number end up coming out to be? 08:33 just checking the nonfixed sizes 08:33 skills etc 08:34 125 bytes (exactly 1000 bits) deterministic 08:34 + 171 bytes padding (this amounts to basically zero due to compression) 08:34 <[Demo]> oh thats not terrible at all 08:34 + 155 for trinsics 08:34 um 08:34 how many skills are in the game 08:34 <[Demo]> like weapon skills? 08:34 ah 08:34 40 08:35 + 160 for skills 08:35 <[Demo]> more than i thought 08:35 it's 39 in vanilla, FIQHack added wands 08:35 anyway 08:35 -!- Tariru_ has joined #hardfought 08:35 so 125 + 155 + 160 that actually has an impact on save size 08:35 + 171 padding 08:35 congrats on your recent ascension bouquet_! 08:35 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-31 20:57 EDT: minor bug fix 08:35 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-31 21:03 EDT: pushed a fix, easymode games are now nonscoring 08:35 K2: Message from winny at 2018-03-31 22:34 EDT: exploding barrels bug in zapm - i assume you fixed it - but it only affects certain systems in my experience https://github.com/winny-/ZAPM-winny/commit/c404922c67e17510998b09dffeece85d4754cc04 08:35 440 + 171 padding, 611 bytes total 08:36 thanks winny 08:36 <[Demo]> ok thats not bad 08:36 aosdict: attribute scores would add 12 bytes to this 08:37 * aosdict calculates the size of struct monst in nh3 08:37 assuming no compression 08:37 6 bytes for the attributes 08:37 6 for the maximum (for restore ability) 08:37 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37 players also has like 4 other sets of attributes 08:37 that are never used 08:37 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 08:37 because reasons 08:37 <[Demo]> if ur trying to run fihack on ur early 90s toaster u have bigger issues 08:38 [Demo]: a normal ascension in FIQHack is around 22MB 08:38 in save size 08:38 -!- Tariru has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38 <[Demo]> whats the peak memory usage throughout that run? 08:39 hm 08:39 Assuming pointers are 8 bytes, struct monst is 116 bytes. 08:39 I don't know 08:39 <[Demo]> gotta be a lot more than nh3 cause u got all that shit in memory on other levels 08:39 yeah 08:39 I think the easiest way to check 08:39 is to just load up an ascended game 08:39 the game uses progressively more as things spawn etc 08:39 so that should be about peak 08:40 For trinsics I imagine you need to store timeouts so those can't be reduced too much 08:41 But for skills, you could compress each skill into 2 bits, so you could go from 160 bytes to 10 08:41 now how do I check memory use by something 08:41 aosdict: ? 08:41 I know I can use top but that just shows a percentage 08:41 you run linux 08:41 I run linux but am not a system administrator 08:41 :( 08:41 anyway 08:41 skills use 1 byte for skill ID 08:42 and 1 byte for level 08:42 I mean, htop shows memory usage 08:42 (which caps at GM btw, so 3 bits, not 2) 08:42 and 2 for exercise 08:42 <[Demo]> htop shows it as a percent too by default 08:42 actually no 08:42 it uses 1 for skill ID 08:42 1 for max skill level 08:42 and 2 for advance 08:43 I'm not quite sure how useful all of this is 08:43 but I'm pretty sure you can get away with just 2 bytes per skill 08:43 Skill ID in particular seems like something you could scrap. 08:43 but not less 08:43 yeah 08:45 And max skill level seems like it should live on permonst. 08:45 54352 31512 08:45 is the amount this fiqhack process uses 08:45 in KB 08:45 on an ascension-ready game 08:46 I've never seen FIQhack consume more than 500MB memory during normal operation 08:46 (this is in an actual game, not replaymode which uses far more because I haven't memory-optimized it yet) 08:46 FIQ: for stress testing you should get someone to do an extinctionist run 08:46 aosdict: I suggested khoR_ to pudding farm in fiqhack once 08:46 He is the only one I know who likes to pudding farm 08:46 FIQ write a bot for fh 08:47 use it to stress test 08:47 (He never did it) 08:47 FIQ's port of bothack - let's call it fiqhack 08:47 :P 08:47 hah 08:48 <[Demo]> is it just me or is there something wrong with knights at the start of the game regarding mounting their horse 08:48 everything is working as intended 08:48 is it that they slip off and die a lot 08:48 have you never seen knights die from mounting 08:48 in real life 08:48 it's common 08:48 dont try to mount your horse until xp lvl 2 or 3 08:48 why else do you think they'd be so expensive 08:48 to hire 08:49 and sustain 08:49 <[Demo]> But why 08:49 <[Demo]> why does this make sense 08:49 <[Demo]> it doesnt 08:49 riding is dangerous 08:49 horses sometimes dont want you to ride them and will buck you 08:50 <[Demo]> NHINRL 08:53 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 08:53 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 08:54 <[Demo]> how does it make the game more interesting? 08:56 !tell winny I get this error on compile when applying your ZAPM exploding barrel fix - http://termbin.com/t1zy 08:56 Will do, K2! 09:00 <[Demo]> do fiqhack monsters know how to use lightsources? 09:02 No, because they have no need for it 09:02 [hdf-us] [fh] Ow (Demo) (Kni Dwa Fem Law) killed the ghost of EasyHack, the former Ninja, on T:1952 09:02 Oh but I intended to make them use light sources if they could jump 09:02 but forgot 09:02 <[Demo]> they have no need for it? 09:03 Light sources make it easier to explore 09:03 They already know the map 09:03 <[Demo]> what 09:03 <[Demo]> really? 09:03 <[Demo]> why 09:03 yes 09:03 You tell me how to feasible make monsters have to discover the map as they go 09:04 Perhaps if I ever add Bards, player allies might have to, but they'd share the knowledge amongst the entire party then 09:04 same with the ID game 09:08 <[Demo]> is lance still strong in fh? 09:10 -!- Tariru_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:11 [hdf-us] [fh] Ow (Demo) (Kni Dwa Fem Law) received Dragonbane from Lugh, on T:2595 09:11 <[Demo]> oh word its a lance 09:11 <[Demo]> oh this was very intentional 09:12 what was? 09:12 barbarian w/ cleaver in an opulent throne room 09:12 muhahahah 09:13 !whereis K2 09:13 FIQ: [hdf-us] k2 [xnh]: No details available 09:13 <[Demo]> the dragonabne gift 09:13 <[Demo]> thanks for supporting knights 09:13 @mtf loved it in his knight run 09:13 he had constant encumbrance problems though 09:13 because he insisted on dual-wielding lances 09:13 damn that was fast 09:13 this was back before I reduced the weight of Dragonbane 09:13 so they weighted 180+180 09:13 stuff weigh way too much! 09:14 <[Demo]> isnt dual wielded lances shit? 09:14 <[Demo]> doesnt the offhand one not do as much dmg? 09:14 doulbe-joust 09:14 *double 09:14 doesn't it depend on skill? 09:14 and yes it doers the same damage 09:14 *does 09:14 well not quite 09:14 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 2717 points, T:3354, killed by a fire ant 09:14 but it isn't any worse than other twoweaponing 09:15 <[Demo]> oh 09:15 <[Demo]> well some variant nerfs offhand lances then 09:15 dnh and spork does 09:15 by virtue of them being too heavy even at expert 09:15 <[Demo]> I like that dragons are usable as steeds now 09:15 <[Demo]> and they actually breath at shit and can learn spells 09:15 MTF was riding a black dragon 09:15 <[Demo]> u really buffed knights a lot 09:16 in his game 09:16 <[Demo]> AND they can be dwarves 09:16 <[Demo]> are knights the valks of fh? 09:16 nah, that's still valk 09:16 you have alignment issues 09:16 and quest arti isn't as good 09:17 and no intrinsic cold *immunity* 09:17 <[Demo]> oh yeah 09:17 <[Demo]> fuck the alignment issues 09:17 <[Demo]> can i do hella mm damage though? 09:17 !tell Chris_ANG maybe incants would work better with merged HP/Pw 09:17 Will do, FIQ! 09:18 [Demo]: sure 09:23 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:24 You add the "light" spell to your repertoire. You feel a wrenching sensation. The spellbook crumbles to dust! 09:25 aosdict, is that supposed to happen? ^^ 09:25 successfully read a book but then got failure effects 09:25 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 09:25 elenmirie, sounds like you're playing slex, where that happens if you used up the last charge of a spellbook (except that it won't actually cause it to crumble) :D 09:25 hehe 09:26 do books in xnh have charges? 09:26 not that I know of, but it could be a recent change 09:30 boom 09:31 paxed is on a roll 09:31 converting everything to enums 09:33 <[Demo]> what even 09:33 <[Demo]> this weapon gives reflection too? 09:34 yes 09:34 if you mean Dragonbane 09:34 [hdf-us] [fh] Ow (Demo) (Kni Dwa Fem Law) received Ogresmasher from Lugh, on T:4650 09:35 <[Demo]> does ogresmasher do anything neat? 09:35 enjoy your 25 con 09:35 <[Demo]> how do i get it 09:35 be neutral and sacrifice, I expect 09:35 or lawful, I forget 09:35 <[Demo]> i mean the con 09:35 wield it 09:35 wield it 09:35 snap! 09:36 lawful, I see 09:36 that knight got it from lugh 09:36 now go smash some ogres 09:36 <[Demo]> my con is 14 09:36 <[Demo]> even wielding it 09:36 ok let me fix that 09:37 I probably forgot to add it 09:37 (I was going to) 09:37 <[Demo]> will it work in the offhand? 09:37 you can't offhand artifacts 09:38 <[Demo]> i mean in the alternate weapon slot 09:39 oh you mean like, when you aren't actually using it? 09:39 that sounds silly 09:39 <[Demo]> dnh does that 09:39 dnh is silly 09:39 <[Demo]> yeah 09:42 !tell K2 I hate C++, at any rate at appears ZAPM's stock makefile doesn't specify a standard.... real question is is ZAPM C++ 1998, 2003, or 2011? 09:42 winny: Message from K2 at 2018-04-01 08:56 EDT: I get this error on compile when applying your ZAPM exploding barrel fix - http://termbin.com/t1zy 09:42 Will do, winny! 09:43 !tell K2 pushed ogresmasher buff 09:43 Will do, FIQ! 09:43 winny: I don't think K2 knows 09:43 he isn't a programmer by heart 09:43 i guess it was partially rhetorical 09:44 i would assume its the latest 09:44 K2: Message from winny at 2018-04-01 09:42 EDT: I hate C++, at any rate at appears ZAPM's stock makefile doesn't specify a standard.... real question is is ZAPM C++ 1998, 2003, or 2011? 09:44 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-04-01 09:43 EDT: pushed ogresmasher buff 09:44 K2: naive assumption 09:44 it isn't a very new application 09:44 * K2 shrugs 09:44 I'd assume 98 09:44 looking at the date of zapm it is prlly 98 or 03 09:48 i think 98 is a good guess too, counting number of warning lines is reduced by 50 98 vs 2011 09:48 i'm gonna guess 2011, because FIQ 09:49 I'm gonna guess 1998, because K2 09:49 at any rate K2 it didn't fail to compile on my machine because my gcc defaults to gnu++14, i think yours must default to something pre c++11 09:49 hmm 09:49 how do i check that? 09:49 winny: just add an actual specifier 09:49 say 98 09:49 in the makefile 09:50 yeah, just did that :) 09:51 how do i check that? 09:51 K2: check out: info gcc Standards 09:51 look under 2.2 C++ Language towards the end of that section 09:52 idk how to check from the actual compiler 09:52 ok 09:52 if you've made another commit, i'm ready to apply it 09:54 actually want to hold off of that, i didn't consider standards differences, and it is possible the bug was caused by using gnu++14 09:55 it should still be fixed 09:55 by forcing a standard 09:56 ok 09:56 either way i need to test more 09:57 [Demo]: tf happened to minetwon 09:58 looks like a siege took place 09:58 were there orcs 10:00 interesting, bug still happens 10:00 <[Demo]> it was a bones level that came like this partially 10:00 ah 10:05 !tell K2 pushed change: players polymorphed into nymphs have infinite carrycap 10:05 Will do, FIQ! 10:07 K2: what gcc version did you use when you compiled the hardfought's zapm? 10:07 and x86_64 or i386? 10:08 elenmirie: That shouldn't happen. 10:08 <[Demo]> i dont like how strong poly traps are for knights in fh 10:09 ? 10:09 FIQ: do you think they finally resolved the ANSI debate in favor of doing it? One can hope :-) 10:09 they're not stronger for knights 10:09 <[Demo]> they can yield a pet dragon 10:09 aosdict: highly doubtful 10:09 <[Demo]> and knights can right that guy more easily 10:09 [Demo]: they can also yield arch-liches 10:09 and pets actually abuse covetous behaviour to your favour in FIQHack 10:09 <[Demo]> badass steeds are so strong though 10:11 x86_64 10:11 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-04-01 10:05 EDT: pushed change: players polymorphed into nymphs have infinite carrycap 10:11 gcc version 5.4.0 20160609 (Ubuntu 5.4.0-6ubuntu1~16.04.9) 10:12 winny ^^ 10:12 thanks 10:14 K2: is the code modifications used for hf on github btw? 10:14 yeah one moment 10:15 https://github.com/NHTangles/devnull-zapm 10:16 K2: https://github.com/winny-/ZAPM-winny/commit/c9d235f0f5b47282af86a6a11131b05efa7680b2 10:16 this fixes it on my desktop 10:16 alright. i'll give it a shot 10:17 btw i did confirm hf's zapm isn't affected, so it's not like u need to add this fix, but i guess it can't hurt 10:17 K2: you should add PRIME :P 10:18 ok serious talk 10:18 you shoudl add brass 10:18 who is NHTangles 10:18 and deucehack 10:18 Tangles 10:18 not nht 10:18 who is k21971 10:18 is that k2 10:18 yes 10:18 no it's me 10:18 FredrIQ is K2 10:18 K2: handsome face 10:18 ;p 10:19 jonadab: 10:19 :) 10:19 what work is left on brass 10:19 also are you using the new version 10:19 or the old 10:19 wait, was K2 born in 1971? I thought he was over 50 though 10:19 that worked winny 10:19 aosdict: you are flattering K2 10:19 without having to add the 2nd line 10:19 K2: cool! 10:19 yes i was born in '71 10:20 so you're a time traveler 10:20 sure ;) 10:20 man u don't look 47 10:20 jonadab: 10:20 what work is left on brass 10:21 well i'm 46 10:21 i was born tag end of 1971 10:21 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:21 i get mistaken for mid 30's a lot 10:22 ZAPM updated (us and eu) 10:23 K2: late december birthday? 10:23 FIQ: waiting to add brass when jonadab gives me the go ahead 10:23 aosdict dec 29th yes 10:23 ooh my cousin was born on the 30th 10:23 well K2 was in the army 10:23 or is 10:23 as an adult its no big deal. as a kid it can SUCK 10:24 might have helped his health 10:24 and voldemort was born on the 31st ;) 10:24 happy birthday/merry xmas (gets handed same present for both) 10:24 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 10:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 10:25 K2: and if you went to an elementary school that had birthday parties for kids in the class, you probably missed out because of vacation or something 10:25 granted, that's more common with summer birthdays 10:26 hard to remember... i dont recall ever having a bday celebration at school 10:26 so prob not 10:27 <[Demo]> is ixoth bitch in fh? 10:28 https://github.com/NHTangles/devnull-zapm/commit/c6aec7c95d31ad54517ca9860e2dd049da0f702f 10:28 winny ^^ 10:28 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 10:31 <[Demo]> yo fiq polearm autotarget sometimes targets shit u dont know about 10:32 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 10:33 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Pri Hum Fem Cha) killed Nalzok, on T:40620 10:33 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Pri Hum Fem Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:40621 10:34 [Demo]: explain? 10:35 btw you can use f to fight without going through the targeting step 10:39 <[Demo]> oh nice 10:39 <[Demo]> so like itll target invisible shit 10:39 <[Demo]> and when im blind target shit i cant see 10:40 [hdf-us] [fh] Ow (Demo) (Kni Dwa Fem Law) defeated Ixoth, on T:9645 10:40 <[Demo]> wow holy shiy 10:40 <[Demo]> megabitch 10:44 zapm is still getting bugs fixed! Nice one K2 :) 10:44 heh, thank winny ;) 10:44 :) 10:44 hows it going Tangles? 10:45 Cheers, winny! 10:45 https://github.com/winny-/ZAPM-winny/blob/master/TODO.org this are my long term goals for zapm 10:45 basically only usuability fixes 10:47 <[Demo]> what does the mirror of merlin do in fh? 10:48 <[Demo]> other than grant see invis 10:48 this is epic... just saw this posted in the nethack facebook group page - https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/29063735_10155439711423601_1715128507961780363_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=b170ba2a50e956957e1d652b4a64432b&oe=5B6FE3C5 10:48 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Geryon, on T:40032 10:48 winny: Awesome that zapm is getting some attention! 10:48 !tell K2 pushed a fix where polearms could target things you can't see 10:48 Will do, FIQ! 10:48 (: 10:49 it really like zapm because it's incredibly unbalanced but still challenging 10:49 [Demo]: it doesn't grant see invis 10:49 <[Demo]> hmm 10:49 <[Demo]> ext telepathy? 10:49 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 10:49 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-04-01 10:48 EDT: pushed a fix where polearms could target things you can't see 10:50 <[Demo]> what 10:50 <[Demo]> howd u fix it 10:50 <[Demo]> oh just an is visible check i guess 10:50 <[Demo]> man whyd i report that i was using that 10:50 wow K2 that's a lot of Archons. 10:50 please don't refrain to report exploits 10:50 [Demo]: yep, ext telepathy 10:51 Tangles: the person who posted it was complaining about how he was so close to ascending his first rogue 10:51 he's xp lvl 29 10:52 and he prob genocided a lot of monsters to boot 10:52 archonstorm ;) 10:52 got that once on plane of fire in sporkhack... was not fun 10:54 <[Demo]> quest artis arent a reliable source of mr in fh, right? 10:59 K2: I remember that. 11:00 [Demo]: they are 11:00 well 11:00 assuming they give MR in first place 11:02 yeah that was a crazy game 11:02 then turned around on next game splatted on astral 11:03 yeah. You got close a couple of times. 11:04 [Demo]: why haven't you hasted your dragon 11:04 how to train your dragon: NetHack edition 11:05 K2: is that that Graylight guy? 11:05 Yes, over-genocide was a contributing factor there. 11:05 i think so 11:06 he spams #nethack from time to time trying to get people to watch him stream on twitch 11:06 it was the biggest archonstorm I've ever seen 11:06 same 11:07 over half the plane was full of monsters including tons of titans and archons 11:07 mine was only half a dozen archons i think 11:07 but all you need is one titan 11:07 boom, storm 11:07 summonstorming is still a very Not Fun mechanic though 11:08 there should definitely be some countermeasure such as summoners can't summon more summoners, and the summoned monsters don't get the regular starting inventory (so no cursed create monster shenanigans) 11:09 3.6 does this 11:10 YANI: blessed create monster summons tame monsters, uncursed peaceful, cursed hostile. They usually summon only one monster, but occasionally summon 2 or 3. Most randomly generated ones are cursed. 11:10 is that exploitable? 11:11 (on the monster side of things, this would probably summon only hostiles regardless of beatitude) 11:11 unless used by a peaceful or a pet 11:11 that isn't symmetric :( 11:12 FIQ: have you implemented mvm hostility yet? 11:12 yes 11:12 okay then, that, in fiqhack 11:12 hmm ok 11:12 in practice this means that basically no monster will use CM 11:12 the scroll 11:13 or use the "omnicidal" thing ais proposed and make cursed summon omnicidal monsters 11:13 CM will still be prevalent lategame 11:13 because high wand skill would mean tame monsters 11:13 Wand skill isn't relevant, this is the scroll only. Forgot to mention that. 11:13 or high spell skill for priests 11:14 Possibly should remove the most-are-cursed caveat? 11:14 [Demo]: you can use f 11:14 as in 'f'ire 11:14 But does that make it too easy to get pets? 11:14 if quiver is empty, it will autotarget and hit the target 11:15 if you get a large stack of create monster and bless them 11:15 with a polearm 11:15 aosdict: perhaps? 11:15 not sure 11:15 the game is crawling with CM scrolls atm 11:15 but if I added this in fiqhack 11:15 I'd probably remove CM from monster spawns 11:15 because they'd be almost useless 11:15 for them 11:16 Well, is there any way that makes it more useful for monsters while still being symmetric? 11:17 yes 11:17 the current way 11:17 :) 11:17 Actually, how does it work in fiqhack symmetrically? If the player uses a cursed scroll do they get an army of pets? 11:17 no 11:17 CM speeds up monster generation 11:17 the monsters that do spawn 11:17 would have spawned anyway, later 11:17 (really, NH4's RNG system makes sure of this) 11:18 it can spawn peacefuls 11:18 when monsters use them 11:18 this is of course useless for them 11:18 you could say the same for cursed create monster in this system then 11:18 but since they're usually hostile, yeah 11:18 blessed = tame, uncursed = peaceful, cursed = "regular" monster spawns, most of which are hostile to the player 11:18 you mean that cursed always spawn hostile, uncursed speeds up generation, blessed spawns tame? 11:19 Or that, yes. 11:19 monsters assume scrolls are uncursed unless known otherwise 11:19 this is a reasonable assumption 11:19 since that's the common standard 11:23 lol the bane of all grunthack players spawned in my slex run: http://i.4cdn.org/vg/1522596152698.png 11:24 isn't the Beholder guaranteed in slex 11:24 yes, but the SLASH'EM beholder is slightly less evil 11:24 neutral quest nemesis or something 11:24 @le?beholder 11:24 Beholder (e) | Lvl: 15 | Diff: 24 | Spd: 9 | Res: petrification | Confers: nothing | MR: 70 | Generates: unique | AC: -4 | Attacks: 1d4 gaze Death, 3d8 gaze physical, 1d3 gaze stun, 1d3 gaze confuse, 1d4 gaze sleep | Alignment: 0 | Flags: flies, regenerates, nopoly, stalker, covetous, infravisible 11:24 @le?grunthack beholder 11:24 grunthack beholder (e) | Lvl: 6 | Diff: 13 | Spd: 3 | Res: cold | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 4 | Attacks: 0d0 gaze slow, 2d25 gaze sleep, 0d0 gaze disintegrate, 0d0 gaze petrification, 2d4 gaze cancellation, 2d4 bite physical | Alignment: -10 | Flags: genocidable, flies, breathless, mindless, nopoly, infravisible 11:24 oh of course "grunthack beholder" is its own monster 11:24 well they both share the trait of having gazes that can kill instantly 11:24 @le?air elemental speed beholder 11:24 air elemental speed beholder (e) | Lvl: 9 | Diff: 21 | Spd: 36 | Res: cold | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 4 | Attacks: 0d0 gaze slow, 2d25 gaze sleep, 0d0 gaze disintegrate, 0d0 gaze petrification, 2d4 gaze cancellation, 2d4 bite physical | Alignment: -10 | Flags: genocidable, flies, breathless, mindless, nopoly, infravisible 11:25 K2: pushed a fix to make Protection from aligned Priests carryover to bones 11:25 ok 11:26 LarienTelrunya: but that monster is different 11:26 because cancel works different in slex 11:26 yes :P 11:27 <@Winsalot> Aquired wand of wishing from castle. What should I wish for? Already have GDSM and reflection. Can't wish for artifacts as have named/ been gifted numerous of them. Already have +4 stormy. 11:28 Markers? 11:28 <@Winsalot> Potions of wonder sound tempting, as well as magic markers to enchant my gear 11:29 @Winsalot FIQHack artifact generation is different 11:29 um 11:29 actually it isn't, but what I meant is 11:29 artiwishing is different 11:29 you are guranteed 1 freebie with artiwishing 11:29 but then further artiwishing chances are lowered much faster than vanilla 11:29 'you have just won a goat' 11:29 <@Winsalot> Still, master key is the best artifact I could wish for I think 11:29 lol 11:29 that never gets old 11:29 100%, 50%, 33%, 25%, 20%, 17%, ... 11:29 vs 100%, 100%, 66%, 50%... 11:30 <@Winsalot> I have saber unrestricted btw 11:30 sure 11:30 just clarifying 11:30 <@Winsalot> Is grayswandir much better than stormy? 11:30 since you said you couldn't wish for artis 11:30 due to some being generated 11:30 and named 11:30 and this isn't true 11:30 @Winsalot idk, I generally don't wish for grays 11:30 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Bar Orc Mal Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:16230 11:30 <@Winsalot> sure. Now I'm thinking about wether or not to wish for artifacts 11:31 <@Winsalot> What are the BIS gauntlets? 11:31 BIS? 11:31 they kiss you? 11:31 <@Winsalot> Best In Slot 11:31 ah 11:31 GoD or GoP 11:31 <@luxidream> leather 11:31 depending on lineup 11:31 but don't wish for that 11:31 no point 11:32 <@Winsalot> oh, I already have that 11:32 <@Winsalot> "gauntlets of dexterity and power" 11:32 <@Winsalot> 2 in 1 lol 11:32 LarienTelrunya: slex feature idea, bise gauntlets which kiss you. I have no idea what the effects of this would be. 11:32 That's... a grunthack item 11:32 basically 11:32 congrats 11:32 Evil Patch idea: when the game creates a lot of ghosts in haunted temples, they will eventually be stronger versions of regular ghosts. Eventually they'll be strong enough to pose a threat to a character in a full ascension kit. 11:32 Yeah it's basically my favorite grunt wish lol 11:32 for gauntlet slot 11:32 aosdict: hmm 11:33 LarienTelrunya: yes better ghost scaling is a good idea 11:33 <@Winsalot> Is small shield of carrying good enough for shield slot? 11:33 LarienTelrunya: so basically like ZAPM's Borg 11:33 and ADOM's uberjackal effect 11:33 FIQ: can you now have a ring of carrying of carrying in fiqhack 11:33 aosdict: ooh thanks for notifying me 11:33 yes you can 11:33 I forgot to exclude that 11:33 FIQ: ah, yeah that's comparable, except that those ghosts should also become increasingly faster and deal more damage in melee 11:34 since it isn't automatic by virtue of being a property 11:34 <[Demo]> are yellow dragons petrification resistant? 11:34 yes 11:34 <[Demo]> well i mean they are 11:34 your dragon has eaten trice corpses 11:34 <[Demo]> but does that apply to medusa? 11:34 <[Demo]> yes 11:34 yes 11:34 <[Demo]> thats weird 11:34 only Medusa can be petrified by Medusa 11:34 <[Demo]> i dont see why that works 11:34 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 11:34 despite being stoning resistant 11:34 <[Demo]> like eating footrice corpses makes sense cause hes acidic 11:35 <[Demo]> but being immune to medusas gaze somehow> 11:35 <[Demo]> i dont get it 11:35 [Demo]: well 11:35 [hdf-us] [fh] Ow (Demo) (Kni Dwa Fem Law) defeated Medusa, on T:13865 11:35 that's just how NetHack works 11:35 <[Demo]> im not gonna complain 11:35 <@Winsalot> Is it reasonable to wish for some tinned corpse that gives intristic with 100% probability? 11:35 <@luxidream> what intrinsic do you need at castle 11:35 <[Demo]> yeeeeeeeee 11:35 @Winsalot common in vanilla early game, at least. 11:35 <[Demo]> i broke the game 11:35 Green dragon being the most common 11:36 But you probably already have PR. 11:36 <[Demo]> so i striking medusas square 11:36 <[Demo]> with her and perseus statue 11:36 !tell K2 pushed fix: don't allow rings of carrying and carrying 11:36 Will do, FIQ! 11:36 <[Demo]> i picked up the damn lev boots 11:36 <[Demo]> named them 11:36 <[Demo]> then dropped them 11:36 <[Demo]> then it says its say 11:36 <@Winsalot> I still need shock resistance though 11:36 <[Demo]> error restoring wrong level 11:37 <@Winsalot> also dragons in castle are real fucking scary 11:37 <@Winsalot> there is a black one 11:37 ooh 11:37 <@luxidream> you should have reflection for that 11:37 <[Demo]> uhh 11:37 nice catch [Demo] 11:37 NH4 bug 11:37 <[Demo]> did u change how bones monsters work? 11:37 <@Winsalot> reflection doesn't help vs blast 11:37 <[Demo]> like player bones monsters 11:37 elaborate? 11:37 maybe? 11:37 <[Demo]> its peaceful 11:38 <@luxidream> unless FIQ is extremely cruel and made black dragons pierce reflection as well 11:38 <[Demo]> on entering level 11:38 @luxidream no 11:38 that said I have considered removing that restriction 11:38 since disint was nerfed 11:38 [Demo]: oh yeah, that's intended 11:39 <[Demo]> uhh 11:39 <[Demo]> how do i fight it without getting fucked? 11:39 !tell ais523 somehow someone managed to trigger an actual (!) off-level generation in FIQHack, despite my attempts earlier failing... it loaded a bones level and then panicked: Restoring the wrong level. 11:39 Will do, FIQ! 11:40 [Demo]: see that's why it's peaceful 11:40 you have a choice 11:40 oh you mean alignment-wise 11:40 meh, does it matter 11:40 you're a knight 11:40 you get zeroed a bunch anyway 11:41 <[Demo]> so it isnt murder? 11:42 no 11:42 it isn't always-peaceful 11:43 [Demo]: your HP? 11:43 [hdf-us] [dyn] I Wanna Be The Adeon (Luxidream) (Hea Gno Fem Neu), 415260 points, T:42986, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/L/Luxidream/dynahack/dumplog/2018-04-01%2011_43_15%2C%20I%20Wanna%20Be%20The%20Adeon-Hea-Gno-Fem-Neu%2C%20ascended.txt 11:43 <[Demo]> i got slammed 11:43 your choice for fighting it 11:44 I think this makes player monsters less cruel 11:44 see @luxidream 11:44 player monsters are still strong 11:44 :P 11:44 <@luxidream> lol 11:45 <@luxidream> they're asleep now though? 11:45 I know you've mentioned them being OP a couple of times 11:45 yes 11:46 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Aram, on T:84791 11:48 <@luxidream> !bones is probably still optimal in FIQhack, you need to be quite a bit stronger than a player monster to beat it 11:48 <@luxidream> and then they use all the scrolls anyway because they have perfect knowledge of what they do 11:50 <[Demo]> welp im fucked 11:51 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Pri Hum Fem Cha) had Sting bestowed upon her by Anhur, on T:43085 11:51 [Demo]: why 11:52 <[Demo]> wand balance patch 11:52 [Demo]: lol, I just found a gravestone that says: You read: "The wand destruction patch (which is bullshit) killed my Nethack Fourk character! Whose bright idea was it to make wands of teleportation not work at all on the castle where you have no hopes of fighting an ancient dragon head-on?". 11:52 <[Demo]> i wad dumb 11:52 is that what happened to you? 11:53 <[Demo]> and didnt have any backup plans incase my dragon died 11:53 <[Demo]> but it died 11:53 <[Demo]> due to wand balaance patch 11:53 <[Demo]> could deflect wants with my reflection to protect it 11:53 <[Demo]> wnads 11:53 <[Demo]> christ 11:53 -!- Blastin_in has joined #hardfought 11:53 <[Demo]> so it died and now im sol 12:04 [Demo]: do you still think knights are OP 12:04 see 12:04 without a dragon mount 12:04 they're just a shittier valkyrie 12:05 aosdict: thanks! My thoughts on the power changes - makes wizards even easier, but definitely more fun. I survived with a spellbook of identify after all ;) 12:05 *without 12:07 hey, lightning isn't *that* bad 12:10 careful: disintegration resistance might not work; it definitely does not work in fourk unless you're naked 12:10 not sure if FIQhack also doesn't protect your gear 12:10 yeah disint res is kinda useless 12:10 fix it :P 12:10 unless you plan on pissing off your god real bad 12:10 <[Demo]> ok so 12:11 <[Demo]> am i best off fighting the soldiers in the castle with or without reflection? 12:11 with 12:11 reflection will never worsen your situation 12:11 it used to with regards to item destruction 12:11 because the way item destruction works is dumb 12:11 in vanilla 12:11 but I addressed that 12:11 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Ronja, on T:86754 12:11 -!- Tariru has joined #hardfought 12:12 -!- Blastin_in has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12 -!- Blastin_in has joined #hardfought 12:12 also be careful with wands of death 12:12 they're no longer reflection-bypassing instadeaths 12:12 but they still hurt a ton 12:12 <[Demo]> i have mr 12:12 <[Demo]> will that make a difference? 12:12 yes 12:13 it will not kill 12:13 with or without reflectiotn 12:13 it will merely just leveldrain 12:13 unless you also have drain rs 12:13 *drain res 12:13 then it's harmless 12:14 @Winsalot you can't wish for multiplies of stuff that don't stack 12:14 <@Winsalot> It's worth a try 12:15 <[Demo]> wait so with mr death booms will level drain me? 12:16 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Orcus, on T:86850 12:19 wow, I've never seen anyone get so far in Slex. 12:20 !tell K2 pushed a fix: wands of death at master is once again an instadeath without MR 12:20 Will do, FIQ! 12:20 mistake as a side effect of allowing reflection to prevent instadeaths at skilled-expert 12:21 it would almost certainly have killed anyway 12:21 but now it's guranteed again 12:23 [Demo]: why are the liches fighting 12:23 <[Demo]> i have no idea 12:23 <[Demo]> but im not complaining 12:23 <[Demo]> one of them did something that angered a bunch of guys at it 12:23 ahh 12:23 <[Demo]> idk what it was 12:24 mvm agression shenanigans 12:25 <[Demo]> whats the best steed in fh? 12:25 either a dragon with all resistances or a ki-rin 12:25 ki-rins is a bit luck-based 12:25 because they get random spells 12:25 (like all monsters) 12:25 <[Demo]> oh 12:25 <[Demo]> like they start with random spells? 12:25 so it might be amazing 12:25 or bad 12:25 yeah 12:25 <[Demo]> can you not have pets learn spells anymore? 12:25 all casters do 12:25 you can 12:26 but ki-rins aren't intelligent I think 12:26 <[Demo]> ah damn 12:26 <@luxidream> dragons can start with spells too 12:26 sure, but they aren't dedicated casters 12:26 so the chance is much smaller 12:26 <[Demo]> if im wishing for a figurine it just seems i ought to go for a ki-rin 12:26 <[Demo]> but idk 12:26 for them to have useful spells 12:26 <[Demo]> what dragon is best dragon? 12:27 black or yellow 12:27 <[Demo]> i have an apron so i think i might go for yellow 12:27 <[Demo]> also yellow is my favorite color 12:28 have fun with the player monster 12:28 did you even kill it 12:28 <[Demo]> no 12:28 <[Demo]> it started zapping me 12:28 <[Demo]> so i ran away 12:29 I found the dumplog 12:29 <[Demo]> uh oh 12:29 some fun stuff for it to throw against you 12:29 <[Demo]> well im gonna just call it gay and not fight it yet 12:29 heh 12:29 [hdf-us] [fh] Ow (Demo) (Kni Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed figurine of a yellow dragon", on T:15141 12:32 [hdf-us] [fh] Ow (Demo) (Kni Dwa Fem Law) killed the energy vortex of Losesalot, the former Priest, on T:15219 12:32 <[Demo]> oh lord 12:32 lol 12:32 so it blundered into a polytrap 12:32 eh 12:34 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed Glasya, on T:72351 12:37 !tell K2 minor fix: make monsters less polyself-happy 12:37 Will do, FIQ! 12:37 the bar was set a bit too high 12:37 <[Demo]> im pretty impressed i didnt die there 12:37 for what monsters consider useful polyforms 12:38 <@Winsalot> How tf am I even supposted to get through that? 12:38 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/430043253207728129/Screenshot_2018-04-01_19-37-49.png 12:38 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Pri Hum Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:44557 12:38 @Winsalot #turn 12:39 -!- Blastin_in has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39 <@Winsalot> just spam it like there is no tomorrow? 12:39 more or less 12:39 <@Winsalot> ok lol 12:39 better if you have light I think 12:39 -!- Blastin_in has joined #hardfought 12:39 lamps etc 12:39 <@Winsalot> why? 12:39 <@Winsalot> light spell counts? 12:40 sure 12:40 that's better 12:40 I assumed you didn't have it 12:40 <@Winsalot> I have blessed wand of light 12:40 <@Winsalot> and expert at wands 12:40 then zap it 12:40 and be done 12:40 with ligt 12:40 *light 12:40 master light lights up the entire level 12:41 also I suggest disabling sparkle 12:41 or reduce the delay 12:41 <@Winsalot> yeah, I noticed 😃 12:42 <[Demo]> light maitnence lol 12:42 btw it works better when not chaotic 12:42 then you don't end up with a billion peacefuls 12:42 oh well 12:45 <[Demo]> is polypiling nerfed in fh? 12:47 no 12:47 it will never create objects with object properties 12:47 but that isn't really a nerf 12:47 <@luxidream> I remember when it did 12:47 <@luxidream> that was pretty crazy 12:48 it was dumb 12:48 way too OP 12:48 <@luxidream> dyna allows it 12:48 <@luxidream> but properties on armor is rare enough that you won't see it 12:48 [Demo]: btw, you killed the player monster? 12:48 oh right you did 12:48 shock vortex 12:49 all right then 12:50 in FIQHack, armor properties are just half as common as on weapons 12:50 <@luxidream> does anyone know anything about the dyna april fool's stuff 12:50 maybe that's too common 12:50 <@luxidream> can I turn it off 12:50 there is april fool's stuff in dyna? 12:50 didn't know 12:50 <@luxidream> it's mixing up letters in random words 12:50 there is a reason I split it into its own gamemode 12:50 <@luxidream> clearly intentional 12:50 for my own thing 12:51 ah 12:51 sounds a bit annoying 12:51 <@luxidream> oh, is your april fool's joke easy mode? 12:52 yes 12:52 in a way 12:52 I'll keep it, but it has rather pelicular functionality atm 12:52 <@mtf> oh man 12:52 <@mtf> dual wielding lancess 12:52 <@mtf> lances* 12:52 <@mtf> gotta be the most fun you can have in fiqhack, period 12:52 @mtf dragonweight is no longer as heavy 12:53 <@mtf> no wait, you have to do it on a black dragon 12:53 <@luxidream> you are in a mostly safe place, don't worry 12:53 <@luxidream> oh boy 12:53 90 instead of 180 12:53 <@mtf> yea I remember 😄 you changed the weight like literally after my knight win xD 12:53 @luxidream difficulty is significantly downgraded, but there's... other changes 12:53 I think I set the timers for them too high though... takes a while to notice 12:54 The thing is, 180 weight for a lance is only 18 pounds, which is probably a lot less than they weigh in real life. 12:54 <@mtf> FIQ: could probably have used an event within the first 500 turns 12:54 <@luxidream> oh, I actually have to play to see them? 12:54 @mtf yeah I think in general I should have made the timers like 25% of what they are 12:54 @luxidream yeah 12:54 but it was poorly designed, it demans too much investment 12:54 <@mtf> I've seen a couple now 12:54 <@mtf> they are fun 😛 12:55 just play normally, you'll notice 12:55 <@mtf> nah it's great design 12:55 @mtf sure but it takes 2k turns 12:55 for you to notice anything off 12:55 <@luxidream> 2k? not too much 12:55 <@mtf> that's only a couple floors with autoepxlore! 12:55 <@luxidream> because autoexplore is the most efficient thing ever 12:55 haha 12:56 K2: you around? 12:57 FIQ: I started from the newest Brass I could find, 0812221. At minimum we need to track down the #name/#adjust segfault, check whether the fakewiz levels' not being generated is a problem (it may be by design, I haven't checked yet), implement any achievement tracking junethack wants (e.g., Sokoban/Minetown trophies), and do livelog. 12:57 At minimum. 12:58 Would like to also get status_hilights, MONSTERCOLOR, fix the wonky AC display, show_uncursed, auot-open doors, add conducts like Elbereth and lostalign, and do a wizmode playthrough test. 12:58 <[Demo]> why the fuck do vikeys keep fucking up in fh 12:58 Livelog isn't necessary for junethack. 12:58 [Demo]: ? 12:58 <[Demo]> like they quit acting as vikeys somtimes after i press some key? 12:58 <[Demo]> i cant tell 12:58 you're the first complaint I hear about it 12:58 I use vikeys myself 12:59 <@luxidream> I died before 2k turns 12:59 [hdf-us] [fh] EZ WIN AMIRITE (Luxidream) (Pri Hum Mal Law), 33173 points, T:1577, killed by a fire ant, in explore mode 12:59 aosdict: Livelog isn't strictly necessary, but players would really like to have it, I think. 12:59 <[Demo]> do you know what im referring to though when i say it kind of jumps? 12:59 <@mtf> ffs 12:59 Also, its' relatively easy compared to the other stuff. 12:59 <@mtf> I just got rickrolled by the /r/games cyberpunk 2077 review thread 12:59 *it's 13:00 <@mtf> they had a link to a release date video T.T 13:03 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed Daemon, on T:72538 13:03 -!- Blastin_in has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04 -!- Blastin_in has joined #hardfought 13:05 <@Winsalot> So I reached my Pirest quest nemesis, Should I just cancel and beat him up? 13:06 <@Winsalot> @ me if there are some things I should know. Gonna go afk for a while 13:07 <@luxidream> pirate? 13:07 <@luxidream> oh, priest 13:07 -!- Blastin_in has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08 !tell K2 pushed easy mode bug fix 13:08 Will do, FIQ! 13:11 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Jubilex, on T:88020 13:13 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Rhea Corroder, on T:88042 13:21 -!- ProzacElf_ has joined #hardfought 13:21 jonadab: Yes, but if you can classify it as not strictly necessary, you can prioritize it last. 13:22 @luxidream rip 13:24 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25 aosdict: True. 13:25 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 13:25 FIQ: OK, so the perfect moment to bug the devteam about your getobj patch finally happened 13:25 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2018-04-01 11:39 EDT: somehow someone managed to trigger an actual (!) off-level generation in FIQHack, despite my attempts earlier failing... it loaded a bones level and then panicked: Restoring the wrong level. 13:25 <@luxidream> are fountain wishes the same as lamp wishes in un and friends 13:25 (a pity it was on April 1…) 13:25 ais523: oh? interesting 13:26 so I've bugged them about it 13:26 @luxidream Only wands of wishing allow magical wishes 13:26 it was only a few seconds ago though 13:26 <@luxidream> thank you 13:26 so no followup has happened yet, but I'll keep you posted 13:26 All other sources of wishing are nonmagical 13:26 ais523: thanks 13:26 ais523: Did you download the .patch or permalink it? 13:27 The permalink is kept updated for potential fixes (which has been a couple, becuase xnh has merged it) 13:27 I mentioned the #H number that we use to track emails internally 13:27 Ahh 13:27 <@Winsalot> omfg, I think Nalzok was standing on lava when I killed him 13:27 @Winsalot zap a wand of cold at the spot. 13:27 "if I can't have the mirror or bell, neither can you!" 13:27 be very careful with digging near lava 13:28 And yeah, if you're going to dig, freeze all adjacent lava first. 13:28 FIQ: I did mention that it could perhaps be aimed at 3.6.2 if there was a desire to get 3.6.1 released quickly 13:28 ais523: I see 13:28 as an attempt at spurring release discussion at the same time :-) 13:28 heh 13:28 I assumed there would be no 3.6.1 13:28 Good luck with that. 13:28 err 13:28 3.6.2 13:29 oh, it's quite possible that we go to 3.7 after 3.6.1 13:29 that hasn't been decided yet 13:29 3.6.2 would presumably be worked on at the same time as 3.7. 13:29 and will likely depend on the volume of patches that would benefit from a minor version bump 13:29 will that make the repo go private again :( 13:29 ONly 3.6.2 would get _only_ bug fixes. 13:29 I eagerly await another 13 years with silence 13:30 One hopes bug fixes could still happen on the public branch. 13:30 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf 13:30 ais523: btw, apparently paxed has been on a roll with enums 13:30 FIQ: it's very unlikely to make the repo as a whole go private, we can create private branches any time we want 13:30 although that's rare except for code that doesn't work 13:31 or for the equivalent of a "pull request" except devteam-internal 13:31 I can see keeping a private feature branch for some really cool new feature, and merging it at the last second for release, for the oooh aah value. 13:31 sounds error-prone 13:32 Though I am not sure if the dev team's concept of a cool new feature would match players' concept of that. 13:32 our idea of cool new features is often along the lines of Sokoban or long worms 13:33 Sokoban! Yay! 13:33 Ok, some players do really like Sokoban. 13:33 Amazing! Fun! 13:33 I am not one of them 13:33 I think hackedhead is the leader of that pack. I kind of like it myself, but I'm not as enthusiastic about it as he is. 13:34 <[Demo]> hmm 13:34 Just to let you know how extreme his position is, he considers sokoban 2a to be the best sokoban level in 3.4.3, and his personal favorite. 13:34 <[Demo]> im inclined to believe that twoweaponing with lances is bad 13:34 I like Sokoban but think it has potential issues 13:34 jonadab: also I think most people who actually like Sokoban consider 2a the best level 13:34 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34 basically because it's a really boring branch when the level is too easy 13:34 <[Demo]> actually you know what im right, its bad 13:34 ais523: I like Sokoban, but 2a is evil. 13:34 [Demo]: try to convince @mtf that 13:35 how much HP do you get from ogresmasher btw 13:35 jonadab: OK, so this is an interesting question: what specifically do you like about the easier Sokoban levels? 13:35 <@Winsalot> So how exactly do I pull out bell of opening from laval? 13:35 <@Winsalot> freeze all lava around and then dig? 13:35 ais523: perhaps it's just that jonadab is less skilled at Sokoban? 13:35 and 2a is way above his head 13:35 @Winsalot yeah 13:35 @Winsalot: the invocation items are immune to being buried, so just freezing the lava is enough IIRC 13:36 <@Winsalot> ok 13:36 <@Winsalot> ty 13:36 jonadab: I don't mean this to criticise your opinion, but in an attempt to get more data 13:36 One thing I don't like about 2a is that even after I finally (finally!) learned how to do it, I still find it easy to typo once and screw it up beyond easy repair. 13:36 because I thought there were three common viewpoints on Sokoban but this appears to be a fourth 13:36 <[Demo]> only like 50 hp 13:36 <[Demo]> err 60 ik i cant count 13:36 <@mtf> demo: two weaponing lances is incredible 13:36 oh, hmm, the lack of ability to reset 13:36 And yes, I"m probably not as good at Sokoban as you and hackedhead. 13:36 <@mtf> how can you possibly think it's bad 13:36 the Sokoban branch would probably benefit from an undo button 13:36 <@mtf> amazing damage + stunlocks 13:36 [Demo]: 56 13:36 ais523: how would that even work 13:36 <[Demo]> the damage shite 13:37 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:37 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:37 <[Demo]> so lets get some facts 13:37 <@mtf> the damage is great 13:37 ‎<‎jonadab‎>‎ And yes, I"m probably not as good at Sokoban as you and hackedhead. ← I was ill for months a few years ago, I spent nearly all that time playing Sokoban 13:37 so I got quite good at it 13:37 <@mtf> I had no problem murdering anything in late game on my knight win 13:37 <[Demo]> the lance in the offhand only gets +2d2 joust bonus dmg 13:37 <[Demo]> and you only have a 60% chance to joust 13:37 <[Demo]> because it uses the twohanded combat skill level 13:37 the 2 joust chances add up... 13:37 <@mtf> ^ 13:37 <[Demo]> which maxes out at skilled for knights 13:37 <@mtf> double jousting noob 13:37 <@mtf> is huge 13:37 ais523: I will say, that although it bent my brain in uncomfortable directions at first, I eventually was able to more or less get the hang of diagonaloban, I _think_. 13:37 FIQ: either flavoured mechanically (some boulder-moving trap hidden in the walls), or magically (time reversal) 13:38 <[Demo]> would a +7 katana not be better? 13:38 ais523: time travel should affect everything, not just boulders 13:38 <@mtf> when I said stunlock I meant it 13:38 and that is a huge can of worms 13:38 <@mtf> I don't think so, no 13:38 to be clear 13:38 So flavor it as a mechanical reset button. 13:38 <@luxidream> ais523: what do you think about unnethack's new soko puzzles 13:38 That puts the player on the down stairs, restores all the holes and boulders. 13:38 jousting with 1 weapon is 80% 13:38 diagonaloban fits better into the game on a large number of axes (easier to flavour, less artificial-looking, fewer changes from standard mechanics) 13:38 <[Demo]> i dont wanna rely on having a steed 13:38 double-joust is 84% and stunlocks 13:38 <@Winsalot> Ok, so I have my bell of opening, but I still need to dig to get my quest artifact? (mitre of holiness) 13:38 <[Demo]> also you seem to losea lot of tohit 13:39 its main disadvantage is the mind-screwiness of it 13:39 <[Demo]> like can u even hit things? 13:39 <@mtf> .... wat 13:39 <@mtf> how early are you double jousting hah 13:39 <@mtf> I had zero problems with to-hit 13:39 @luxidream: I'm generally in favour of randomly generated Sokoban, which I still need to finish off implementing 13:39 <[Demo]> hmm 13:39 <@Winsalot> Ok, nvm, found my quest reawrd under the ground lol 13:39 [Demo]: base twoweapon to-hit is awful 13:39 needs skill 13:39 and enchantment 13:39 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed the invisible Stahngnir, on T:88687 13:39 <@mtf> both of my things were +7 by the time I got double jousting going, so that might be part of it 13:40 Right, you don't wanna two-weapon until you are already expert in the weapon skill in question, usually. 13:40 but yes [Demo] 13:40 a +7 grays does more damage 13:40 but grays is OP 13:40 <@mtf> knockback from stun is pretty huge too 13:40 <@mtf> err, from pounding 13:40 @mtf a +7 grays does at least +14 + 2x str bonus damage 13:40 max str bonus is +6 iirc 13:41 so minimum +26 flat damage 13:41 before silver saber and silver damage 13:41 it is ridiculous 13:41 <@mtf> lol wow, that is pretty insane 13:41 that's why people consider wishing for it 13:41 despite weapon wishes generally being a terrible idea 13:41 <@mtf> I'd wish for grays, of the staff of apopalyptica 13:42 <@mtf> or* 13:42 if you want a better weapon, it's a fairly good choice 13:42 normally your current weapon is good enough 13:42 <@mtf> maybe SoP 13:42 weapon balance is all over the place in NetHack, though 13:42 <@luxidream> staff of aesculapius? 13:42 <@mtf> err SoM* 13:42 <@mtf> @luxidream lol yes 13:42 <@luxidream> I think it's pretty overrated. never found a reason to use it 13:42 Weapon wishing isn't a _terrible_ idea. Just a slightly suboptimal use of a wish in many cases. 13:42 <@mtf> I think it's super boss 13:42 <@mtf> my only healer win using that wep felt like a god 13:42 the orb of fate is my favourite artifact 13:42 staff of aesculapius is a stronger stormy 13:43 orb of fate is really strong 13:43 <@mtf> and I already love stormy 13:43 people seem to hate it though 13:43 My favorite is probably the Platinum Card. 13:43 <@mtf> I used to wish for OoF haha 13:43 due to its weight 13:43 Though the Eye is also great. 13:43 eota is my personal favorite, followed by PYEC 13:43 when I was new to NetHack 13:43 branchport seemed to be a really cool effect 13:44 ais523: If random-generated Sokoban mostly works except for the goal corridor, just generate a straight goal corridor, and call it v1. 13:44 <@luxidream> I've won a few healers and the staff has never done anything except sit in my bag 13:44 <@luxidream> stormy has to be my favorite, it's the first weapon that I won with 13:46 <@luxidream> oof is not a bad wish, it just doesn't give you any form of instadeath protection 13:46 it basically doubles your HP 13:46 right, it's really good vs. regular death 13:46 halfphy doesn't just cover physical damage 13:46 as opposed to instadeath 13:46 but all melee 13:46 and several other effects 13:46 and halfspell works against casters 13:47 ais523: I'm unsure what is stronger of MKoT and oof 13:47 MKoT gives teleport control 13:47 which is great 13:47 OoF gives levelporting 13:48 oof also works for portal detection 13:51 !who 13:51 FIQ: [hdf-us] Luxidream [dyn] Tariru [slex] Demo [fh] Wolfechu [nd] Eleven [nd] Kame [dnh] 13:51 FIQ: [hdf-eu] winsalot [fh] 13:52 hmm 13:52 teleport control is available intrinsically 13:52 and I'm the sort of person who takes the tengu gamble (mostly because I'm not too bothered by teleportitis) 13:53 oh I do that too 13:53 but it's unrealible 13:53 and usually you don't get it 13:53 hmm 13:54 for a moment I thougt fiqhack was the most played variant judging by the oldest 100th death 13:54 but no 13:54 while fh's oldest is just a week old -- less than typical dnh oldest 13:54 dnh oldest is just 3 days old 13:54 :P 13:55 also apparently nh4 is also played more 13:55 with that metric 13:55 xnh is just barely behind 13:58 Eh, it's still in its honeymoon period. 13:58 aosdict: are you sure 13:58 neither 4k or fh had such a thing 13:58 fh especially so 13:59 -!- greqrg has joined #hardfought 13:59 well, I think xnh had greater visibility leading up to and around its launch on hdf 13:59 aosdict: I think it's simply that you capture a group of people that only ever play 3.6.x 14:00 interested in trying something new 14:00 in part because I kept talking about it and K2 kept nagging me 14:00 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 14:00 but I think some portion of the current gameplay is still first-foo-ascension hunting 14:00 !tell Mandevil we renewed the em.slashem.me certificates so your scoreboard should be able to parse it again :) 14:00 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 14:00 so I don't think activity will neccessarily just die off 14:00 aosdict: both 4k and fh has plenty of unascended combos 14:01 and dyn 14:01 <@Tone> I've always been in the "why would you ever wish for a weapon" camp, but I've seen Tariru do it during a few games lately and it's made me consider trying it more 14:01 @Tone trying to learn from the best I see 14:01 :P 14:02 <@Tone> I suspect it's more valuable of a wish on certain roles than others 14:02 <@Tone> FIQ: Always 😄 14:02 <@luxidream> lategame? 14:02 FIQ: Not combos. xnh still has roles (and races?) that haven't been ascended. 14:02 <@Tone> Castle wand, yeah 14:02 aosdict: Ah 14:02 <@luxidream> he's already won by then 14:02 <@Tone> Fair 14:02 <@Tone> It's definitely a luxury wish 14:03 <@Tone> I wouldn't wish for one over DSM or anything 14:03 <@luxidream> earlygame the only one worth considering would be sceptre 14:03 <@luxidream> for MR 14:03 I wished for sceptre once in nh4 14:03 err 4k 14:03 earlygame 14:03 FIQ: Though I will say that getting it played by the nhdev regulars here was one of my goals. 14:03 It double blasted me 14:03 I died 14:04 The low-hanging fruit for doing that was removing frustration issues like the mysterious force 14:04 see 14:04 <@luxidream> double blast? 14:04 that is what I do 14:04 remove frustration 14:04 add QoL 14:04 <[Demo]> hmm doublejousting on castle dragons didnt go too badly 14:04 nobody will complain 14:04 <@luxidream> add other sources of frustration 14:04 <@luxidream> 😛 14:05 @luxidream pls :P 14:05 FIQ: Oh, this isn't a formula to be complaint-free. See: unicorn horns and branch stair colors. 14:05 aosdict: sure 14:05 but those changes alone 14:05 are objectively great 14:06 Yes... I see them as a reserve of sorts, that I can tap into when I want to nerf something. 14:06 hah 14:06 "well xnh nerfs foo, which sucks, but there's no mysterious force!" 14:06 make changes a bit easier to swallow :) 14:07 @luxidream one of my main concerns with player monsters in fiqhack 14:07 was them being too easy due to crappy AI 14:07 and not be a challenge, just free loot 14:08 The feedback on unicorn horns I've gotten is as follows: 1) One-handed is great! 2) Passive application is great, but can it work with gloves on? 3) Reducing its damage from 1d12/1d12 sucks! 4) Removing its restore ability function sucks! 14:08 I think it went a bit too well... 14:08 in other words, people want all the buffs and none of the nerfs 14:08 <@luxidream> honestly, what non healer used unihorns as a weapon in the first place 14:08 aosdict: Wait, are they 1h and 1d12/1d12? 14:08 That's too god 14:08 *good 14:08 Stronger than long swords 14:08 No, they're still 1d8/1d10. 14:08 A 14:08 h 14:09 <@luxidream> 1 handed? 14:09 I'd still _want_ them to be 1d3/1d5 or some such but then the complaints would start up again 14:09 <@luxidream> that's crazy 14:09 @luxidream it's a dumb change IMO 14:09 because it screws over healers 14:09 while buffing twoweaponing for others 14:10 I still want to change healers in some way that makes them not _need_ a midgame weapon before getting the Staff. 14:10 aosdict: make scalpels able to cause bleeding 14:10 increased with knife skill 14:10 perhaps make knives in general able to 14:11 but that makes crysknife too strong 14:11 FIQ: really ought to be done only after 3.6 trinsic rewrite, sadly. And I'm not sure I want to tackle that one yet. 14:12 <@luxidream> how does it screw over healers though 14:12 YASI: if an oilskin cloak is hit with a fire attack, it burns up completely. 14:12 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Pri Hum Fem Cha) wished for "blessed can of grease", on T:46884 14:12 @luxidream damage nerf...? 14:12 <@luxidream> now they can wear a shield along with their long swords 14:14 I still really don't see how a unicorn horn could be used as an effective weapon, realistically. No idea who decided it should be 1d12/1d12 for vanilla. 14:14 So the complaints about reducing that are primarily "my healer only had one weapon option and you took it away!" 14:17 what if an eroded armor piece received only 75%/50%/25% AC bonus? 14:17 so that eroding was a real concern 14:18 without making it destroy stuff 14:18 what happens to AC 1 armor pieces 14:18 rounded down 14:18 but the idea is to also factor in enchantment 14:18 Yeah, I guess that's how it works not. 14:18 now* 14:19 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Mephistopheles, on T:89433 14:20 I'm imagining a guy in tattered, burnt almost to shreds, rusty with holes in it everywhere armor, but he's covered in all directions by a shimmering shield because it's all +5 14:20 as how it works now 14:20 Heh 14:22 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 14:23 in many roguelikes, erosion simply negatively enchants the armour 14:23 so enchantment and erosion cancel each other out indefinitely 14:24 I guess you could make it so that scrolls of enchant repaired erosion and could only enchant unenchanted items 14:24 that'd have a comparable effect that's more NetHacky 14:24 <@luxidream> rust monsters get in a million hits though 14:24 except once the item had already been enchanted up 14:25 <@luxidream> your armor is probably -5 after any given encounter with them 14:25 @luxidream then that'd give you more reason to escape from them 14:25 people probably don't use escape items in NetHack enough 14:25 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) wished for "blessed switcher", on T:89562 14:25 <@luxidream> they're faster than you, escape may not be possible 14:25 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 198 points, T:844, killed by a large kobold 14:25 @v? rust monster 14:25 rust monster (R) | Lvl: 5 | Diff: 8 | Spd: 18 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: gehennom dungeons | AC: 2 | Attacks: 0d0 touch rust, 0d0 touch rust, 0d0 passive rust | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, swims, metallivore, infravisible 14:25 they're slower than you if you have extrinsic speed 14:25 ais523: so if you have a +4 helm and you get it hit with a rust trap, a point of enchantment auto-heals the helm and vanishes? 14:26 aosdict: hmm, that migiht work 14:26 come to think of it, this is starting to lead to an argument "maybe enchantment should time out" 14:26 (and, presumably, protect from erosion without penalty while it's active) 14:26 ais523: by the time you see them, it's very unlikely that you have extrinsic speed 14:27 potions of speed aren't that rare 14:27 it's difficulty 8 14:27 you could make them more common if it's a problem 14:27 ais523: I can tell you what my and many other people's strategy would become in that case: try to struggle through the game not enchanting anything and saving everything up for the asc run 14:28 btw, I'm fairly tired so what I'm saying right now may be a terrible idea 14:28 (that usually applies but even more so atm) 14:28 so gehennom becomes harder 14:28 I'll blame it on April 1 14:28 I have no problem with this 14:28 but that said 14:28 FIQ: I think we should throw out the whole speed system anyway and rebuild it from the ground up. 14:28 I disagree the proposal 14:28 aosdict: why? 14:28 <[Demo]> cause its too slow 14:28 if ?oEA were temporary you could make it more common / less inky 14:28 you want something like ADOM's weird system? 14:28 or even dumber, DCSS 14:29 I can see an argument for something like Brogue's 14:29 to clarify 14:29 ADOM's speed system consist of 2 parts, quickness and energy cost 14:29 I don't particularly like that there's a permanent intrinsic that gives you speed 14:29 you gain 1000 energy per turn, quickness modifies this 14:29 I'm OK with permanent upgrades to the character existing 14:29 Brogue's system is only balanced Because there is a strictly limited number of enchant scrolls in the game. 14:29 with 200QN you get 2000, with 50 you get 500 14:29 putting them on items is less than ideal though because it makes item choice less interesting 14:29 then there is energy 14:29 the vast majority of actions cost 1000 energy 14:30 jonadab: Brogue's speed system has nothing to do with ?oE 14:30 Oh, speed? 14:30 I mean the speed system, not the enchantment system 14:30 skills, items and whatnot can reduce energy cost of different actions 14:30 Ah. 14:30 Ok. 14:30 ais523: wait, how does putting stuff on items make item choice _less_ interesting? 14:30 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30 ADOM's seven league boots, arguably the best boots in the game, reduces movement cost to 750 energy 14:30 (meaning you effectively have 4/3 speed) 14:30 <@Winsalot> Ok, I have reached Gehennom for the first time ever. yay! 14:30 but doesn't boost other sources 14:30 some ADOM talents reduce energy costs for certain weapons 14:31 and that's ADOM's speed system 14:31 FIQ: I suppose my gripe is: there are effectively 4 tiers of speed: slow, regular, fast, and speed-boots-fast. 14:31 DCSS works somewhat similar to NetHack 14:31 aosdict: because you normally pick the item you want near the start of the game 14:31 I would like it to be more interesting like this. 14:31 and don't bother with any others once you've got it 14:31 but unliek NetHack where everything costs 12 speed (or 10 with DCSS metrics) 14:31 s/like/than 14:31 *unlike 14:31 DCSS randomizes monster speed 14:31 and weapons take different time depending on skill 14:32 in a rather nonintuitive way 14:32 many characters will have their weapon and armour routes planned right from turn 1, and they're normally very simple 14:32 this is because there's very little incentive to change, and enchanting up armour reduces the incentive still further 14:32 so having more item choices... exacerbates that problem? 14:32 anyway 14:33 I think NetHack's speed system works better than both of these 14:33 it's straightforward 14:33 and not really broken IMO 14:33 aosdict: well, the point would be that if you found enchanted items, it'd give you a reason to use them until the enchantment ran out 14:33 apart from certain cases (very fast is too easy to attain, this is why I added Slow) 14:34 ais523: I know Luxidream, and presumably other FIQHack players, end up with Ludios gear (which can be pretty much random) 14:34 (and incidentally also help to cut down on excessive stashing behaviour, because stashing enchanted items would be counterproductive) 14:34 due to it being a good source of object properties 14:34 FIQ: It's not broken, it's just boring. You either have Level 0, Level 1, and Level 2 speed. There is one item that gives you Level 2 speed, and you want to attain that and keep it for the rest of the game. 14:34 When I did what I did with Fourk's speed system, I expected to get it wrong on the first try and need to refine it. If I did, I haven't yet noticed. 14:34 So there is additional variety there 14:34 aosdict: Have you seen what 4k does? 14:34 It arguably breaks the speed system even more 14:34 I know I've _heard_ what 4k does. Don't remember. 14:34 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Pri Hum Fem Cha) wished for "blessed spellbook of magic mapping", on T:47677 14:35 4k splits up sources of speed to all contribute individually to speed 14:35 with +4 points 14:35 Intrinsic speed is +4 14:35 Speed boots is +4 14:35 Temporary speed is +4 14:35 racial speed, intrinsic, extrinsic, temporary speed, and being slowed, all stack. 14:35 This buffs people with haste self 14:35 I.e. it buffs casters 14:35 Because they weren't strong enough 14:36 Oh and scurriers are speed 20 IIRC 14:36 So as a scurrier you can get 32 speed 14:36 Hmm, maybe I should make wearing boots hurt spell success rates ;-) 14:37 20 seems high for scurrier base speed. 14:37 Scurriers are really weak earlygame, but get some extra healing going and it can get crazy 14:37 I thought it was lower than that. 14:37 They're the fastest playable race, by design, but I thought not quite THAT fast. 14:37 FIQ: That's not what I have in mind. I suppose what I have in mind is: the amount to which you can increase speed above base by items is limited, and all other sources of speed are temporary, have diminishing returns, and lose effectiveness as they time out. 14:38 * jonadab checks: scurrier base speed is 16. 14:38 jonadab: Ah, sorry 14:38 28 speed is still a lot though 14:38 It's more than double speed 14:38 It is. 14:38 aosdict: So make speed boots only grant "fast"? 14:39 And temporary speed the only way to get very fast 14:39 FIQ: Yes, but you're still thinking in tiers. 14:39 Because that's what they are 14:39 What are you suggesting? 14:39 YANI: haste self temporarily speeds you up and also, on the same timer, makes your Def worse. 14:40 jonadab: Qud sprinting does that 14:40 double speed but significantly reduced evasion 14:40 I'd have been surprised if no roguelike had the effect. 14:40 and to-hit 14:40 It's a fairly obvious thing to do. 14:40 (and only double *movement* speed) 14:41 Ah, like riding a fast horse? 14:41 jonadab: it's the kind of ability I could see myself adding to a monster, or some, to add variety once abilities are in 14:41 That's an interesting thought. 14:41 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 14:42 FIQ: A system where temporary speed is a certain unfixed amount of bonus movement points. As the speed times out, the number of bonus movement points steadily decreases until it drops to 0 and the effect ends; 14:42 aosdict: I see 14:42 Hitting yourself multiple times with speed will increase the timer again, making you even faster, but there are diminishing returns here so you can never get more than a certain amount of speed; 14:43 This still benefits casters 14:44 FIQ: haste self benefits casters in vanilla, too. Do you have a solution in which haste self does *not* give a speed advantage to casters? 14:44 YANI: if riding, moving from tile to tile doesn't run off your movement points, but your steed's. LIkewise for monsters who ride. 14:44 Yes 14:44 Remove haste self 14:44 I meant, short of that. 14:44 jonadab: That is already the case 14:44 (Of course, once _you_ run out of MP, your turn ends.) 14:44 Except it concerns *all* actions 14:44 FIQ: Is it? 14:45 Ride a horse much faster than you 14:45 and suddenly you can fight faster 14:45 FIQ: I thought the amount of movement points *you* get ran off your *steed's* speed? 14:45 It makes no sense :P 14:45 Which is not what I said at all. 14:45 jonadab: Oh so you meant only do it for movement 14:45 My thinking was, you get your usual number of MP, your seed gets its. 14:45 But moving, specifically, uses from the steed's pool of MP. 14:45 Which get cleared out when your turn ends. 14:45 Hmm 14:46 It would be quite different from the way it works now, I think. 14:46 It makes flavour sense and is probably balanced 14:46 But it might be confusing? 14:46 It might. 14:46 Well. 14:46 Confusing for people trying to predict how many actions they can take this turn. 14:46 It allows speed 12 player + speed 12 horse to move + attack 14:46 FIQ: I plan to make any non-movement actions clear out your movement points, but the last time I tried I got mired in figuring out the movement code. 14:46 in a single turn 14:46 Which most players don't do most of the time. 14:47 FIQ: True. 14:47 aosdict: there is a travelling global when you are moving 14:47 FIQ: But it doesn't let you attack twice if riding a warhorse, etc. 14:47 in the main loop code 14:47 check this variable 14:47 and if it isn't set 14:47 clear out movement points 14:48 jonadab: indeed 14:48 but I'm not sure if I like it 14:48 I'm not certain I do either. 14:48 it is really unintuitive 14:48 But I'm also nto certain I don't. 14:48 I don't think the way NetHack currently does it would be intuitive either, if we weren't used to it. 14:48 It certainly surprised me when I was new. 14:49 I had @mtf explain to me how ADOM's speed system worked when I was new to it 14:49 I still didn't understand at first 14:49 I think your proposal would be even worse 14:49 FIQ: Not context.move, is it? 14:49 Maybe that's just me 14:50 FIQ: I think the worst part of it is the "your horse is out of MP so you can't move, but you can still act" thing. 14:50 aosdict: that's a 3.6 variable 14:50 not sure what it does 14:51 there's also u.umoved and flags.mv 14:52 aosdict: umoved sounds like it from what I can see 14:52 * aosdict tests 14:53 jonadab: so how do you move with a horse 14:53 move, s, move, s? 14:53 please no 14:53 FIQ: No, you just use the regular movement keys like normal. 14:53 ok so 14:53 OH, wait, I see what you mean. 14:54 yeah 14:54 Yeah. 14:54 Umm 14:54 I suppose running the horse out of movement could end your turn, but then that puts us back where we were, almost. 14:54 so if any of you run out 14:54 the turn ends 14:55 That's one possibility. 14:55 That gives a situation similar to the current one, though. 14:55 no 14:55 it allows you to move at horse speed 14:55 but only attack in your speed 14:55 True. 14:55 Hmm. 14:56 YASI: Time Stop spell that gives you a boatload of movement points, during which time you can take actions with nothing else happening. 14:56 You *could* move+attack if the horse has movement points left after the move; which is the same as now. 14:56 aosdict: dNetHack has this 14:56 It is what killed my first character on astral 14:56 Slash'EM has a technique called "blink", which is kind of this too, I think? 14:56 halflings can do it. 14:56 jonadab: yeah but you didn't mind this 14:56 when I pointed it out earlier 14:57 FIQ: Right, that wasn't an objection. 14:57 I was just thinking it through out loud. 14:57 the mechanics get a bit weird balance-wise 14:57 12+24 allows at most 2 moves 14:57 12+12 only allows a single move 14:57 24+24 allows 3 moves 14:58 Heck, 24+24 allows attack-move-attack. 14:58 NOt sure if that's bad, but it's definitely a change. 14:58 <@luxidream> I think the garnet rod in dnethack gives timesstop 14:58 <@luxidream> but you start turning to stone afterwards 14:58 @luxidream that is what I was referencing 14:59 I splatted with time stop 14:59 it was a bit funny 14:59 because I claimed my victory 14:59 <@luxidream> no lizard? oh 14:59 in the channel 14:59 because I had the altar a few steps in front of me 14:59 freeze time 14:59 and get to it 14:59 and win 14:59 within 10 turns 14:59 simple 14:59 except 14:59 I was punished 15:00 so I took 1 step 15:00 time caught up with me 15:00 and I died 15:00 <@luxidream> punished for what? 15:00 priests 15:00 can punish you 15:00 in dnh 15:00 iron ball you know 15:00 Ah, so on Astral you are basically always punished? 15:00 no 15:00 but it can happen 15:00 yeah 15:00 <@luxidream> oh that must have sucked 15:00 EPI: that ^ 15:01 <@luxidream> I'm sure you came back to win after that though 😛 15:01 I thought the death was hilarious 15:01 <@luxidream> win dnh that is 15:01 due to the fact that I loudly claimed 15:01 "I won" 15:01 5s later 15:01 bot announced my death 15:01 I was really confused at first 15:01 then I just laughed 15:01 Sometimes you have to laugh. 15:01 when I realized 15:01 Or else you'll cry. 15:01 it was hilarious 15:01 I wasn't disappointed really 15:02 just thought the entire thing wasf unny 15:02 *funny 15:02 this was in #acehack.de days 15:02 @luxidream yeah i have several dnh ascensions 15:04 <@luxidream> yeah, you'll have to show me sometime how to not get completely destroyed in gehennom lol 15:04 <[Demo]> you dont get punished if you dont deserve it 15:05 <[Demo]> which i think has to do with alignment being high enough 15:05 <[Demo]> which it usually is by the time ur fighting priests 15:05 <[Demo]> so yeah 15:06 -!- Announcy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06 -!- Announcy has joined #hardfought 15:09 [Demo]: hmm that is new then 15:09 there was no such limit when I played 15:10 but dnh was pretty much the beginning of my NetHack foray 15:10 back in 2014 15:10 before I found the light 15:10 in NH4's UI 15:10 I guess a dim light is better than darkness 15:10 * FIQ slaps bhaak around a bit with a large FIQ-bot 15:11 bhaak: what is your problems with NH4 UI 15:11 so I can fix it 15:12 I want to try out C:DDA some day 15:12 it seems cool 15:12 but I am really not a fan of the zombie apocalypse theme (not with C:DDA in particular but in general) 15:12 <@luxidream> I played it for a while 15:12 <@luxidream> you have to make things for yourself to do 15:13 <@luxidream> surviving isn't that bad 15:13 the open world aspect is what interests me 15:13 but if there is literally no goal (like with Minecraft/Starbound) then I'm a bit afraid of potential lack of depth 15:14 I like having at least some sense of progression 15:14 FIQ: I don't think you can fix it. I'm generally not a fan of curses UIs. they try to emulate a proper graphical window system but they don't fit that well. 15:14 bhaak: I see 15:15 bhaak: What would be a good UI in your view? 15:15 dunno about starbound but minecraft does have *a* goal 15:15 tty except with some of its more severe issues fixed? (single-line msgbar...) 15:15 aosdict: Slaying the ender dragon is very much an afterthought 15:15 It had no goal for years 15:15 well sure but that's no reason to write it off 15:15 To me it felt like that particular goal was added just for the sake of having a goal 15:16 But yeah sure 15:16 Better than nothing 15:16 <@luxidream> from what I saw a lot of people amused themselves building killer cars 15:16 <@luxidream> and power armor 15:17 <@luxidream> there were some tutorials on how to beat what seemed to be interesting looking dungeon branches but they were mostly pretty short 15:17 FIQ: well, the tty is not that good either but at least it's quite clutter free. 15:17 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17 bhaak: Hmm. You think perm_invent is clutter? 15:17 Otherwise the NH4 UI is pretty similar to NH3's 15:18 just with frames 15:18 bhaak: If you know, give me an example of a good terminal roguelike UI 15:18 Then I can try to understand 15:18 I might not agree, I Just want more people's views 15:18 *I just 15:18 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 15:19 Sounds like the main difference there is the message window. 15:19 aosdict: I don't get that remark though. I can't see why anyone would prefer single-line message bar over multi-line 15:19 Frames can be disabled 15:20 Personally I would rather have multiline message window over perm_invent. 15:20 If I had to choose one. 15:20 Me too 15:20 Does curses stick the status bar in a window too? 15:21 <@luxidream> multiline can get spammy 15:21 The NH3 curses UI does 15:21 It boxes everything 15:21 in its own box 15:21 <@luxidream> I used to play in the included 3.6.0 tiles which had multiline 15:21 In my refactor, I made everything line up similar to NH4 15:21 with more smooth frame connections 15:22 <@luxidream> ensuing floods of text could get impossible to read 15:22 @v?jackal 15:22 jackal (d) | Lvl: 0 | Diff: 1 | Spd: 12 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: gehennom dungeons | AC: 7 | Attacks: 1d2 bite physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, infravisible 15:22 @luxidream do you have this problem with NH4? 15:22 not sure how multiline makes it impossible to read 15:22 it's basically just automore 15:23 until doing that would hide unseen things 15:23 <@luxidream> I've shrunk it to something I like a little better than the default 15:23 @luxidream so if I made curses UI not have such an option 15:23 you would find it unplayable? 15:24 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 15:24 <@luxidream> I'm not terribly picky about that, I just understand why someone might not like it 15:25 <@luxidream> I would still play NH4 so I wouldn't fall into the water, melee eyes, etc 15:25 FIQ: I didn't say there IS a good terminal roguelike UI :-) 15:26 people seem to forget or not know that my first roguelikes were graphical ones :-D 15:26 I am in the "not know" group 15:26 <@luxidream> a good tileset would attract more people than better terminal looks tbh 15:27 @luxidream oh I am sure 15:27 but I can't create tilesets 15:27 I might also like the tty one a bit more because it's modal. that might appeal to my vim personality 15:27 I can only do what I can 15:27 :P 15:27 creating a tileset is easy. creating a GOOD one is the hard part ;-) 15:27 bhaak: oh yeah that's one thing that came to my mind when I was contemplating help UIs and whatnot 15:28 I was thinking how dcss 15:28 and tty nethack 15:28 all has its "bigger screens" fullscreen 15:28 and how that wouldn't work for NH4's UI at all 15:28 also qud 15:29 with fullscreen I mean that it takes up the entire game area, not literal fullscreen 15:29 anyway, and with this you can create some fancy UIs 15:29 that don't look as well in more "windowed" UIs 15:29 like NH4 15:29 I actually don't like a multiline message that is on top. for a single line, it's okay. maybe my LucasArts game history plays into this 15:30 bhaak: for curses I was thinking of deleting most of its window alignment options 15:30 reasoning that they're not useful 15:30 with one exception 15:30 putting it under the map could work, but where would you put the status lines then? 15:30 to have 2 modes for the message line 15:30 top, scrolling down 15:30 or bottom, scrolling up 15:31 yeah, there are both camps and if you are in one of the other, it's painful 15:31 this is to avoid people having to stare at the bottom of their screens to look at HP 15:31 like the inverse y axis on controllers or the how the direction of mouse scrolling 15:31 in certain setups where this might be awkward to do 15:31 heh 15:33 I wonder if emulating DCSS's UI would be an improvement? but then the map would scroll or the status lines are pushed to the right 15:34 IMO dcss dedicates way to little to the map area 15:34 yeah. it's a pity, as they have beautiful levels 15:35 bhaak: for reverse-scroll, how do games deal with multiline messages 15:35 I can't think of an example on top of my head 15:35 of a game doing this 15:36 I don't think I've seen a game where the second and third line would be put over the first line. you want to keep them together 15:36 but it means rather strange message reading 15:36 one way of doing it is to have something like a 1,15> to denote the start of a message line 15:37 but it might look dumb, idk 15:37 not necessarily. you have color coded messages in NH4 15:37 you should immediately and intuitively see what belongs together 15:37 there can be several messages in a row with the same color 15:37 whatever 15:38 I will figure it out when I get to it 15:38 that's something I'd really would like to have in the tty port. the colored messages 15:38 suggest a msgtype extension :) 15:43 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44 FIQ: I implemented the speed nerf (at least, the turn counter always goes up when I do something that's not a move), but testing in large groups of jackals still seems like some of them don't get turns. 15:45 Oh well, maybe it's just 3.6 movement fuzzing. 15:47 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:42200 15:48 i've already gotten a sacrifice gift 15:48 it was a spellbook 15:48 a dwarf should not get a spellbook for a first sacrifice gift 15:48 i assumed at the time that mjollnir must exist 15:48 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Sam Ang Mal Law), 41252 points, T:6977, quit 15:48 so is this a 3.6.1 bug? 15:49 sorry, i meant a valk should not get a spellbook for a first sacrifice gift 15:50 <@luxidream> I mean 15:50 <@luxidream> zen players get spellbooks 15:50 hothraxxa: you got a spellbook as a sac gift? 15:50 that should not happen? 15:50 yeah 15:50 uh 15:51 a valk should get mjollnir 15:51 I haven't touched gifting code 15:51 so it is likely in 3.6.1 15:51 did i not say "is this a 3.6.1 bug?" 15:51 Oh. 15:51 Didn't see that. 15:51 I didn't even know you could get spellbooks as a sac gift? 15:51 You shouldn't be able to. 15:52 are you sure you didn't pray 15:52 @ hothraxxa 15:52 yeah, i must have prayed 15:52 it was early in the game 15:52 #o and #p are one key apart 15:52 :) 15:52 hothraxxa: Not even Cone of Cold? 15:53 i got cone of cold as a prayer gift 15:53 hothraxxa: have you gotten magic lamp wishes so far 15:53 i have not seen a magic lamp 15:53 blame aosdict 15:53 who else? 15:53 me 15:54 molly is not much good to me now, i've just found the vibrating square 15:54 soon I'm going to start getting blamed for paranoia in _other_ variants 15:54 how 15:55 well 15:55 it's easy 15:55 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Gol Ang Mal Law), 298 points, T:1056, killed by a monster (maggot), while reading a cursed book 15:56 LarienTelrunya: I just got a rn2(-1) attempted warning in Juiblexs swamp 15:56 sounds like grunthack 15:56 Tariru: hmm, those rn2 warnings happen in various places, I think they're harmless though 15:56 in fact I think grunthack had just such a bug 15:56 in jubilex 15:56 grunthack would cause a segfault panic though :P 15:56 it's always safe to return 0 for them 15:56 Nothing bad seems to have happened as a result. 15:56 So far, at least. 15:59 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 16:01 <@Winsalot> How can I tell if it's player monster or bones? 16:01 <@Winsalot> There is some dude in Gehennom named Maud the Champion 16:02 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:90228 16:02 Maud is probably a game-generated name. 16:06 No player would ever name themselves that, for fear of forgetting everything! 16:06 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:07 <@Winsalot> Hilled that fucker 16:07 <@Winsalot> dropped orange dsm 16:08 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Sli Und Mal Neu) averted death, on T:1196 16:10 wow +7 ODSM 16:10 <[Demo]> does that givee free action? 16:10 @Winsalot was he an actual challenge 16:10 [Demo]: yes 16:10 <[Demo]> does free action do anything worth a damn in fiqhack? 16:11 yes 16:11 <[Demo]> what 16:11 it allows you to resist paralyzation 16:11 <[Demo]> are there more sources? 16:11 no 16:11 <[Demo]> ha 16:11 <@Winsalot> Yeah, he spammed wand of sleep, got me to like 50% hp couple of times 16:11 <[Demo]> slashem does something with free action ive seen no other variant do 16:11 oh and it gives partial slow res 16:11 <[Demo]> prevents flayers from eating ur mind 16:11 <[Demo]> see there we go 16:11 <[Demo]> thats something useful 16:11 <@Winsalot> also levelported once 16:11 66% chance that you aren't slowed 16:11 <[Demo]> nice 16:11 @Winsalot ah 16:12 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Sli Und Mal Neu) averted death, on T:1571 16:12 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Sli Und Mal Neu) averted death, on T:1589 16:13 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Sli Und Mal Neu) averted death, on T:1632 16:13 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Sli Und Mal Neu), 1760 points, T:1636, killed by a monster (giant zombie) 16:17 Tariru is in Gehennom 88 16:17 12 levels to go 16:17 I still haven't found Vlad though. 16:18 the entrance to Vlad is somewhere in Sheol; you need to find the yellow downstair to Sheol somewhere on 52-98 16:18 I haven't found Sheol either. 16:18 Have you explored levels fully? 16:18 Not fully. 16:18 Otherwise you're going to have some fun... 16:19 LarienTelrunya: what does the England enchantment do 16:19 "england" means that something has more range, either rays or missile weapons (don't remember which) 16:19 ahh 16:21 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Lib Dra Fem Law), 724 points, T:539, killed by a monster (smirking sneak thief) 16:21 ah it's beams, i.e. cone of cold, striking, teleportation etc. This applies both ways, i.e. if you wear something "of England", monsters will have the increased range for their wands too. 16:21 cone of cold is not a beam 16:22 Isn't it a beam at low skill? 16:22 what is it then? 16:22 jonadab: no 16:22 it's a ray 16:22 Oh, ray, right. 16:22 oh, right 16:22 Ray at low skill. 16:22 Targettable at high skill. 16:22 well, the england enchantment applies to both beams and rays I should have said :P 16:23 <@luxidream> is there a france enchantment for weapons 16:24 <@luxidream> awoa 16:24 haha, no, but there's a china enchantment which basically gives you banishmentitis 16:31 what does England have to do with increased range 16:31 longbowmen in age of empires 2 ;) 16:33 <@luxidream> when will we be able to get banished to the shadow realm in slex 16:33 <[Demo]> slex is the shadow realm 16:33 jonadab: 3.6.x has implicit_uncursed 16:34 I prefer showbuc, but it might be good to use vanilla patches if available and not strictly inferior... 16:34 Referring to https://bilious.alt.org/rgrn/?135759 16:35 !lastgame dolores 16:35 LarienTelrunya: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/d/dolores/slex/dumplog/1522551542.slex.txt 16:46 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:45814 16:46 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:45820 16:48 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:48 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) performed the invocation, on T:46025 16:49 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:46043 16:49 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "uncursed historic rusted magic marker named mort drucker", on T:42717 16:50 <@Winsalot> I fell into trapdoor and now I'm on level same level with Rodney 16:50 <@Winsalot> kinda anxious and want to leave 16:50 <@Winsalot> idk if I'm ready 16:52 <@luxidream> you can't get inside the tower from where you are 16:53 <@Winsalot> oh so I'm relatively safe now? 16:53 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 16:53 6yes 16:53 *yes 16:54 @Winsalot that is very brave of you to have your wand of wishing out in the open 16:55 -!- loli has joined #hardfought 16:55 without extrinsic shock immunity 16:55 <@Winsalot> oh, didn't even notice that it was there 16:55 a 0:0 wand, no less 16:55 <@Winsalot> wait, intristic shock immunity will not protect my wands? 16:56 no 16:56 but I'm not sure if you can even get intrinsic shock immunity 16:56 without polyself 16:56 <@Winsalot> i already have it 16:56 how? 16:56 <@Winsalot> wished for tinned blue dragon 😃 16:56 that gives shock resistance 16:56 not immunity 16:56 big difference 16:57 but that said 16:57 no, you need extrinsic immunities 16:57 to protect the inventory 16:57 and intrinsic immunities don't exist without polyself or being a Valkyrie (cold), or an orc (poison) 16:58 <@Winsalot> so what's the difference between resistance and immunity? 16:58 and elf (sleep) 16:58 resistance will not fully protect you 16:59 <@luxidream> you can get immunities from armor properties 16:59 <@luxidream> you've most likely found something at this point in the game 17:00 !tell K2 pushed fix: Elves get sleep immunity at XL1, not sleep resistance at XL4 17:00 Will do, FIQ! 17:00 elves and the sleep thing is part of their nature 17:00 <@Winsalot> So, what should I wish for at this point? 17:00 not something they randomly get as they grow 17:01 @Winsalot ctrl+f 17:01 then shock immunity 17:01 or fire immunity 17:01 or cold immunity 17:01 that's the big ones 17:01 oh for the love of 17:01 LarienTelrunya: I told you 17:01 do NOT mess with terminals 17:02 I was spectating Tariru 17:02 FIQ: ? 17:02 now my terminal is fucked up 17:02 thnaks a lot 17:02 ahh yes 17:02 *thanks 17:02 FIQ: that happens a lot 17:02 with slex 17:02 sometimes it just kills the terminal 17:02 wtf? I'm spectating him all the time and there's no problems 17:02 loli: it is malicious 17:02 you have to restart 17:02 LarienTelrunya: the text becomes really fucked 17:02 and I have to sapwn a new term 17:02 K2: please tell LarienTelrunya to fix her shit 17:02 and the person spectating me has to as well 17:02 it fucks with people's termianls 17:02 *terminals 17:02 this is incredibly rude 17:02 LarienTelrunya: fix your shit 17:02 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-04-01 11:36 EDT: pushed fix: don't allow rings of carrying and carrying 17:02 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-04-01 12:20 EDT: pushed a fix: wands of death at master is once again an instadeath without MR 17:02 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-04-01 12:37 EDT: minor fix: make monsters less polyself-happy 17:02 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-04-01 13:08 EDT: pushed easy mode bug fix 17:02 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-04-01 17:00 EDT: pushed fix: Elves get sleep immunity at XL1, not sleep resistance at XL4 17:02 it has been like that forever 17:03 certain monster names do it LarienTelrunya 17:03 <@luxidream> where are you playing FIQhack winsalot 17:03 eu 17:03 random monster names kill my terminal 17:03 <@Winsalot> eu-hardfought 17:03 actually I removed all the control characters from the random monster names and garbage strings so it should no longer happen... 17:03 I got that error recently 17:04 damn 17:04 whenever I last binged the game outside of last night 17:04 happened a few times while that person watched me 17:04 and now Tariru's game made it happen 17:04 let me show what happens 17:04 LarienTelrunya: seriously - you need to remove any code that purposely causes players actual terminal to malfunction. otherwise I'd be inclined to not host your variant anymore. I didnt realize this was an actual thing before 17:04 http://home.fiq.se/larien_pls.png 17:05 it's not on purpose K2 17:05 ^^ 17:05 wanted to say that right now 17:05 yeah that looks like my error 17:05 it is a bug and needs to be fixed, I'd not do such a thing on purpose 17:05 it's some weird string in her monster name it seems 17:05 K2: it is not malicious intent, but the effect is the same, so yeah, I don't disagree with your sentience 17:05 just to clarify 17:06 (well I assume it isn't malicious...) 17:06 ok 17:06 LarienTelrunya: tell Elronnd about it 17:06 <@luxidream> @Winsalot you could use conflict and some more HP 17:06 he might be able to help 17:06 I'll look into it and hopefully I can figure out how it's caused 17:06 he's generally able to clean up your mess when you do something real bad 17:06 <@luxidream> do you have portal detection 17:06 okay 17:07 wait, loli's dumplog should have that monster's name in it 17:07 maybe that can shed some light on it 17:07 I forget which game it was 17:07 but one of mine 17:07 I forget when 17:07 has it 17:07 I'm sure that's a lot of help 17:07 it fucked up the screen when I died 17:07 ;) 17:07 also I think it'd just print a nonprintable 17:07 the very last page of monsters 17:08 in a browser txt 17:08 so it'd be of no help 17:08 needs the ttyrec 17:08 loli: so it wasn't that zyborg? 17:08 please try to reconstruct which game it was, that would really help me track it down 17:08 no it wasn't the zyborg 17:10 gah but most of your other runs either have almost no monsters that got spawned, or are so old that they can't be it! 17:10 please try to remember! was it today? yesterday? 2 days ago? 17:10 few weeks+ 17:10 it was certainly not today 17:10 oh 17:10 https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/d/dolores/slex/dumplog/1520994165.slex.txt could be it 17:10 ÇŽ03ŒyCGøt¦f~(\‹ü 17:11 <@april_fools_name_here> these channel names (on this end) bother me 17:11 yes 17:11 that looks like it 17:11 near the end 17:11 @april_fools_name_here ask @mtf about it 17:11 <@april_fools_name_here> no I get it 17:11 <@april_fools_name_here> april fools and all 17:11 <@april_fools_name_here> but still ಠ_ಠ 17:11 I don't get why the terminal can't handle that 17:11 one discord community I was in did something fun 17:11 they added the highlight indicator 17:11 as part of their icon 17:11 I fell for it 17:12 ingenious 17:12 <@april_fools_name_here> lol 17:13 the hex string of that monster's name is c7 8e 30 33 8c 79 43 47 f8 74 a6 66 7e 28 5c 8b fc 0a 17:13 :( 17:13 oh wait, the 0a is not actually a part of it 17:14 Why would someone make balrogs explode? 17:15 <[Demo]> how much dmg does that explosion do? 17:15 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 17:15 <[Demo]> oh wow 11d11 17:15 Lots and lots :( 17:15 context demo? 17:16 I took 54. 17:16 Not horrible 17:16 It killed me dead. 17:16 Nvm 17:16 Which is pretty horrible when you think about it! 17:16 :D 17:16 <[Demo]> should have had fire resistance 17:17 Monk, trying real hard to be a good boy. 17:17 I think my fire res had worn off about 200 turns earlier, maybe a bit more. 17:17 Is this kaen? 17:17 No, just a random balrog on dlvl 13 or so 17:17 I should stop digging through walls when I see random 3s and 4s. 17:18 Ah 17:18 <[Demo]> ndnh jack does 400d4 fire death huge radius blast on death 17:18 I lost a pirate to a Titan hiding in a little spot, I guess it spawns high level monsters sometimes? 17:18 <[Demo]> 100d4 christ 17:18 <@luxidream> getting this error in dyna 17:18 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/430113727866601482/rndmonst.png 17:18 That's cthulhu right demo 17:18 <@luxidream> anyone know what's up? 17:18 <[Demo]> same dmg as cthulhu but a large radius firey explosion 17:19 Oh damn 17:19 Luxidream nice name there 17:19 <[Demo]> and hes a rider 17:19 <[Demo]> that might actually be a bit strong now that i think about it 17:19 Tubs what variant? 17:19 <[Demo]> cause you can use him as a bomb 17:19 dnh 17:19 <[Demo]> and kill shit 17:20 okay so, Tariru's current ttyrec also screws up termplay, I might be able to track down how it's caused 17:20 it happened at about T:91004 17:20 <[Demo]> wow 17:21 Tubs vaults ( with moats) always have monsters like that 17:21 They're actually much worse sometimes 17:22 <[Demo]> treasure vaults 17:24 @luxidream Items dropped into a hole 17:24 generating a level offlevel 17:24 NitroHack does not like this 17:25 <@luxidream> I see 17:25 (At least it is able to, NH3 can't do it at all, NitroHack crashes) 17:25 NH4 wasn't able to I assumed 17:25 Then [Demo] somehow managed to cause it to happen 17:26 and all he got was a bones load error 17:26 rikersan: [Demo]: yeah I think I figured that, I'll remember for next time, half the fun is in the learning. :) 17:27 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Pri Hum Fem Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:52150 17:31 -!- LarienTelrunya_ has joined #hardfought 17:32 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:32 <[Demo]> i threw perseus shoes down the stairs onto a bones level and it didnt like that 17:32 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:32 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 17:32 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 17:32 <@luxidream> a 17:33 ok so 17:33 some more testing 17:33 it seems that it is no longer impossible to create offlevel generation in NH4 17:33 no idea what changed 17:33 either that or I accidentally did something in FIQHack to re-enable it 17:33 let's try that actually 17:34 hm no 17:34 it works in NH4 too 17:34 w/e 17:35 ais523: Seems like my earlier assumption that NH4 simply doesn't allow offlevel generation was wrong. Either something changed, or RNG was just conspiring against me when I tested last time 17:35 (it isn't 100% to drop downstairs or down holes/traps) 17:35 That said the bones generation bug remains 17:36 FIQ: can you check https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/T/Tariru/slex/ttyrec/2018-03-29.21:49:32.ttyrec.gz in a ttyrec viewer and tell me whether it also causes that weird glyph glitch? 17:36 because if it doesn't, then those garbage strings cannot be the reason 17:37 NetHack 3.6.1-dev updated (us and eu) 17:37 ooh 17:37 nice 17:37 did you do it 17:37 or did you get help 17:37 this has the rc cfg switch that we recently added to xnethack yesterday 17:38 FIQ: Tangles did the merge 17:38 I did a couple post pull edits to a few makefiles 17:38 K2: ah 17:38 LarienTelrunya_: I see no issue, but ttyplay might sanitize them 17:39 hmm 17:39 Maybe ask ais523? 17:39 how to track down that stupid error then 17:39 He knows terminal stuff 17:39 now when you do a version check in game it looks like this: 17:39 Unix NetHack Beta Version 3.6.1-0 - last build Sun Apr 1 17:23:31 2018. 17:39 (f4d5a160487c495456ba31313eb4b64061bdcb6b,hardfought) 17:39 Maybe he can tell you what characters to avoid 17:39 K2: Ah, nice 17:39 ais523: can you check https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/T/Tariru/slex/ttyrec/2018-03-29.21:49:32.ttyrec.gz in a ttyrec viewer and tell me whether it causes visual glitches or something? 17:40 LarienTelrunya_: you'll need to be more precise, there are way too many minor variations on ttyrec formats 17:40 ais523: LarienTelrunya_ is asking how to avoid the terminal doing this: http://home.fiq.se/larien_pls.png 17:40 ^^ 17:40 are there certain characters (probably control characters) that will cause the terminal glitch seen in FIQ's screenshot? 17:40 hmm, that looks like a combination of a) codepage 437, b) the meta bit being set on some but not all the characters 17:41 a) is trivial to explain, that's a misconfiguration caused by a lack of characters, rather than too many characters 17:41 b) is just confusing though 17:41 ais523: I wonder if this is codepage-related? 17:41 or, hmm, wait 17:41 But that would be weird, because my terminal is Unicode-enabled... 17:41 Is it stuck in DECgraphics in some way? 17:41 the characters that are being "replaced" are all lowercase, right? 17:41 Not sure how DECgraphics work 17:41 those gitinfo bits to the makefiles i need to add to xnethack makefiles also 17:41 let me quickly check something 17:41 ais523: Casual look seems to suggest it, yes 17:42 the 0 and - are also being replaced 17:42 K2: tell me how 17:42 so I can add it to my build process 17:42 locally 17:42 for 3.6.x 17:42 ok 17:42 OK, that's a plausible interpretation of the DECgraphics character set being set over G0 17:43 actually if you pull down the latest build of 3.6.1-dev, the changes are already there in the various Makefiles in sys/unix 17:43 there are two ways to implement DECgraphics; either you set ASCII over G0 and DECgraphics over G1 and use G0/G1 indicator characters 17:43 we have our own custom makefiles, so I am adding these changes manually 17:43 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43 K2: Oh? Neat, because beforehand you had to screw with settings to do it 17:43 or else you repeatedly change what's set over G0 17:43 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 17:43 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 17:43 ais523: Is there a reason for doing the latter? Compatibility? 17:44 so it looks like what happened there is that earlier, the terminal was displaying a G0-swapping DECgraphics game 17:44 FIQ: there's a new script in sys/unix called gitinfo.sh which Makefile.src calls 17:44 Because it sounds unneccessarily complicated otherwise 17:44 and you looked away from it while G0 wasn't ASCII 17:44 ais523: LarienTelrunya_ has functions that print random characters 17:44 FIQ: there are some terminals that don't handle SI/SO 17:44 FIQ: ooh! 17:44 So it can plausibly happen even without a badly timed exit 17:44 in that case probably the terminal's been set to G1 17:44 yeah and I want to figure out which random characters I have to avoid, so it doesn't happen 17:45 semipermanently 17:45 Which is what I complained about, also to K2 17:45 and if the user is /not/ using DECgraphics nothing would be setting it back 17:45 to maybe encourage LarienTelrunya_ a bit (since this is outright malicious behaviour) 17:45 LarienTelrunya_: most likely 0x0E caused that 17:45 FIQ: it's not intentional, I want to fix it 17:45 * K2 likes watching 'ah-ha' moments happen in real time 17:46 ais523: That explains why I've never seen it in slex at least, since I use DECgraphics 17:46 LarienTelrunya_: but there are a ton of characters that can make semipermanent changes to a terminal 17:46 And why I only saw it after spectating Tariru 17:46 FIQ: you probably have G1 set to ASCII, then? 17:46 ais523: well, I specifically made it so that on unix, the characters are only 31 + rnd(224) 17:46 but I guess one of them is causing it 17:46 using DECgraphics makes this more likely, not less 17:46 ais523: Maybe? I have no idea 17:46 or maybe a specific combination of it 17:46 I didn't mess witih defaults 17:46 This terminal is Unicode-enabled 17:46 LarienTelrunya_: oh, you probably want to avoid the C1 range 17:46 it goes from 128 to 144 17:46 No idea why codepage concepts is even a thing ini t 17:46 *in it 17:46 C1 is kind-of inconsistently implemented in terminals 17:47 oh 17:47 so one of those may be causing it? 17:47 but in some of them it'll act like a duplicate of C0 and in others it contains a set of control characters of its own 17:47 and you're saying it happens especially when the player is using DECgraphics? 17:47 LarienTelrunya_: the opposite 17:47 you were probably unlucky enough to hit CSI 17:48 which could have done more or less anything 17:48 CSI is Esc + 128 17:48 i.e. 155 17:48 LarienTelrunya_: DECgraphics would have reverted the terminal after a brief screw-up 17:48 I think 17:48 Lack of it kept it messed up 17:48 but not all terminals will interpret 155 as CSI which is why I don't use it in libuncursed 17:48 FIQ: DECgraphics or otherwise hardly matters at this point 17:49 printing random strings containing CSI is like running random shell commands 17:49 LarienTelrunya_: I think it's safest to remain in 32-127 range 17:49 most of them won't do anything but really, anthing could happen 17:49 okay so I guess I have to further fix that on the server 17:49 the terminal could have been reconfigured to DECgraphics or IBMgraphics or Shift-JIS 17:49 or lots of other possible effects 17:50 let me give a summary of the terminal behaviour with encodings 17:50 FIQ: I'd like to conduct a little test, but I need you for it. I'll start a game that prints random garbage characters. And then I'd like to see whether it messes up your terminal. 17:50 ais523: Isn't 155 a valid character in the Unicode range? 17:50 LarienTelrunya_: ok 17:50 FIQ: yes, it's CSI in Unicode too 17:50 Unicode has a range of control characters 17:50 FIQ: ok, I'm on hdf-us 17:50 ais523: ah 17:51 LarienTelrunya_: you aren't 17:51 now 17:51 terminals use a bank-switching algorithm, you have four main banks, C0, G0, C1, G1 (plus G2 and G3 but those are rarely used) 17:51 OH 17:51 it messed up on my end too! 17:51 you /also/ have a codepoint decoding algorithm, which takes a number sent over the connection and finds the appropriate character and bank 17:51 not here 17:51 I was lucky this time 17:51 robably different behaviour 17:51 there are two main decoding algorithms 17:51 across terminals 17:51 *probably 17:52 ugh... so I do indeed have to change the method of generating garbage strings again 17:52 because I can't very well leave this error in the game :( 17:52 Ecma-35 maps 0-31 to C0, 32-127 to G0, 128-143 to C1, 144-255 to G1 17:52 and UTF-8 maps 0-31 to C0, 32-127 to ASCII, and sequences of 128-255 to Unicode (multiple characters mapping to a single codepoint) 17:53 now, C0, G0, C1, G1 are all customizable 17:53 although C0 and C1 are never meant to contain printable characters 17:53 (IBMgraphics violates this rule; when implementing IBMgraphics I put the printable characters in the 128-143 range into C1) 17:53 this is what happened on my end: https://abload.de/img/g0characterbugensri.png 17:54 although C0 is customizable in theory there's only one character set there that's ever used in practice 17:54 it changed the | glyph for vertical walls into ≠ for some reason... 17:54 <[Demo]> interface screw extreme 17:54 LarienTelrunya_: probably what ais523 says then 17:54 but G0 is really widely used, normally for ASCII 17:54 but you can put any character set you like there in theory 17:54 you hit a terminal control character 17:54 and weird things will happen if you do 17:54 and because terminals and standards don't go together 17:54 in FIQ's case, it looks like DECgraphics ended up over G0 17:54 anything goes with random data 17:54 ais523: well the C0 glyphs are already not possible to be randomly selected; would you say the G1 ones are safe? I'll disable the C1 ones 17:55 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the invisible high priest of Moloch, on T:46338 17:55 LarienTelrunya_: the main potential problem with G1 characters is that they may have a width you don't expect 17:55 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:46340 17:55 and thus cause lines to overflow onto the next line, columns to not line up, etc. 17:55 ais523: I don't think LarienTelrunya_ cares about this since it's meant to be garbage data 17:55 terminals aren't allowed to interpret them as anything other than printable characters 17:55 I think her main concern is permanent damage to the terminal 17:55 that needs a restart and/or "reset" 17:56 to resolve 17:56 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:46372 17:56 so the C1 ones are fucking up the terminal and the G1 ones aren't, right? 17:56 right 17:56 ok, so I'll disable all the C1 ones 17:56 garbage G1 will confuse programs that try to autodetect the encoding of the characters you're writing 17:56 but that's about the only permanent bad effect you're likely to see that isn't solved by a refresh 17:57 ais523: what happened in LarienTelrunya_'s screenshot btw? 17:57 is that IBMgraphics 17:57 mapped over G0 17:57 non, I think it's DECgraphics over G0 again 17:57 oh it fixed itself on my end when I generated more garbage strings 17:57 ah 17:58 the main giveaway is capital letters looking correct and most other things looking wrong 17:58 the other possibility is that the codepoint decoding algorithm was changed to decode everthing that would go to G0 as G1 instead 17:58 so 128-143 is the danger zone, right? 17:58 that's a possibility to support 7-bit connections that physically can't send in the G1 range 17:59 LarienTelrunya_: yes 17:59 Vault... must. not. open. 17:59 LarienTelrunya_: I also don't think 0-31 is a good idea except for specific characters 17:59 pretty sure one of those is a CSI 17:59 wait, no 17:59 FIQ: 0-31 is already disabled 17:59 128-159 17:59 I suck at maths 17:59 LarienTelrunya_: ah 17:59 or, I'm normally quite good at maths 17:59 but added 16 rather than 32 for some reason 17:59 right answer, wrong question 17:59 it's basically 0-31 + 128 18:00 in case someone decides to map the normal C0 character set over C1 or something silly like that 18:00 oh, in theory you're supposed to avoid 127 and 255 too 18:00 isn't 127 just DEL 18:00 but in practice nobody cares and I haven't seen any problems using it in practice 18:00 and mostly harmless 18:00 FIQ: right 18:00 allthough it might do strange output 18:00 which is intended here 18:01 well, my main mission is to make it so that it never screws up the terminal, so I'll disable all the dangerous ones 18:01 but yes, C0 and C1 are the dangerous ones 18:01 0-31, and 128+(0-31) 18:01 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:46727 18:01 oh, hmm, there's one other theoretical problem that doesn't affect any terminal I know of 18:01 which is if you hit the UTF-8 encoding of a C1 character while the terminal is in UTF-8 mode 18:02 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Pri Hum Fem Cha), 786773 points, T:52917, killed by Asmodeus 18:02 sequences like 0xC2 0x9B could theoretically be interpreted as CSI 18:02 but that should be a non-problem in this age? 18:02 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:46914 18:03 FIQ: it's a non-problem for the opposite reason 18:03 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:46918 18:03 despite being technically correct no terminals implement it 18:03 other than some that I've been working on, aiming to get the whole standard 18:03 ais523: but isn't those intended to be illegal in the unicode standard? 18:03 most notably, xterm refuses to understand C1 characters if UTF-8 encoded 18:03 similar to the fact that you can encode NUL with unicode in theory 18:03 FIQ: yes, and? nothing's restricting LarienTelrunya_'s output to being legal UTF-8 18:03 (which tripped up very old decoders) 18:04 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:46934 18:04 although, hmm 18:04 ais523: this is what I did now: https://github.com/SLASHEM-Extended/SLASHEM-Extended/commit/967008332607566ee8360fb929e6f6ce699d370c - does that look right? it should avoid all the dangerous stuff 18:04 overlong encodings of C0 characteres is banned 18:04 ais523: my point is, I assumed that those "doubles" was deemed illegal in a later Unicode version for security concerns? 18:04 yeah that is what I am referencing 18:04 but for C1 it wouldn't be overlong 18:04 there is no other way to encode, say, code point 0x9B in UTF-8 18:04 ah 18:05 hm 18:05 yeah ok I see your point 18:05 LarienTelrunya_: that's a scarily inefficient algorithm but it should work in all terminals your users are likely to use 18:05 okay, so I'll have to *bundlebundlebundle* K2 now :) 18:06 ais523: does it address accidental Unicode decoding 18:06 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 18:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 18:06 hm nope 18:06 xNetHack updated (us and eu) 18:06 that's why I said "all terminals your users are likely to use" 18:06 !tell K2 fix ready at slex-2.1.7 branch. Hopefully it really squashes the stupid bug where users' terminals get screwed up. I want to stress again that this is a bug and I never intended slex to fuck up terminals, I just didn't know until now how to fix it ;) 18:06 Will do, LarienTelrunya_! 18:07 ^^ just gitinfo bits 18:07 K2: Message from LarienTelrunya_ at 2018-04-01 18:06 EDT: fix ready at slex-2.1.7 branch. Hopefully it really squashes the stupid bug where users' terminals get screwed up. I want to stress again that this is a bug and I never intended slex to fuck up terminals, I just didn't know until now how to fix it ;) 18:07 ais523: are you implying only putty users play slex 18:07 ok 18:07 FIQ: no, I'm implying that most terminals don't parse C1, and the ones that do only do it if the C1 codepoint is sent directly as a byte rather than UTF-8 formatted 18:07 Ah 18:07 ok 18:08 [hdf-us] [un] ttc1401 (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1833 points, T:1815, killed by a water moccasin, while praying 18:08 Slash'EM Extended updated (us and eu) 18:09 other than the ttyrec encoding convertor I wrote for asciinema recently which is intended to follow the standards as accurately as possible 18:10 damn, it still happens even after the update??? WTF? also, sometimes the garbage strings give "You don't have anything else to put on.", which implies that it somehow sends a "doputon" command 18:10 ais523: that site looks very commercial-y 18:11 LarienTelrunya_: try a new game 18:11 asciinema's, that is 18:11 FIQ: I know, that fooled me to start with too 18:11 not a saved one 18:11 I think it's probably using frameworks that are more commonly used by commercial sites 18:11 ah, perhaps 18:11 K2: tried, still happens *sadface*, I have to further restrict the allowable garbage characters then 18:12 that makes no sense 18:12 maybe there's something else I'm overlooking in slex's pline.c? 18:13 nobody knows it better than you 18:13 maybe if K2 disabled it from the server it would be easier to find ;) 18:14 K2: pushed another fix, I hope that now it works at last 18:14 again at slex-2.1.7 18:14 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:16945 18:14 <[Demo]> free amy 18:18 ok 18:19 Slash'EM Extended updated (us and eu) 18:19 thanks! testing now 18:21 okay I think that really did the trick! I held down the button for two minutes straight, generating tons of garbage strings, and no broken graphics or disappearing part of the status line or weird "system beep" sound happened! :) 18:21 <[Demo]> yey 18:22 god be praised 18:22 gods rather 18:23 sorry again, it was never my intention to screw up terminals; now the days where that could happen should finally be over! 18:24 FIQ: the error is fixed now! do you still think I had malicious intentions? 18:24 I was the one who said to K2 that it wasnt' malicious 18:24 *wasn't 18:25 huh? 18:25 * LarienTelrunya_ reads again 18:25 -!- LarienTelrunya_ is now known as LarienTelrunya 18:25 regardless of whether it was malicious or not, still needed to be fixed 18:26 but i was under the impression recently that some of the traps in slex were meant to screw up the players terminal 18:26 FIQ: yeah you were right, sorry, I misremembered 18:26 anyways 18:26 its fixed 18:26 minor crisis averted 18:26 K2: heh, I can see how slex can give you that impression ;) 18:28 !who 18:28 FIQ: [hdf-us] Luxidream [dyn] Tariru [slex] redshirt [nd] Eleven [nd] ttc1401 [un] ranlhach [un] k2 [xnh] 18:28 FIQ: [hdf-eu] tubs [dnh] 18:29 unleash the rainbow 18:29 heh 18:29 also I think I'll go to bed now; good night, and hopefully the terminals are immune to screwovers now! if not, feel free to pester me to fix it :D 18:29 quick someone start playing grunthack 18:29 afk sleep 18:29 LarienTelrunya: hm... 18:29 anyway, see you 18:30 see you, and thanks FIQ and ais523 for the help! 18:30 and of course also thanks K2 for your patience with me :) 18:30 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: poof!] 18:31 <[Demo]> has anyone confirmed if tariru id human yet? 18:31 Confirmed how? You mean like by genetic testing? 18:32 <[Demo]> turing test idk 18:32 A person using the nick "Tariru" has been on IRC sometimes and appears to be of human-level intelligence. 18:33 But I don't know if anyone has proven that this is the same entity controlling the player character in the "Tariru" win streaks. 18:33 <[Demo]> its not just me, but thats a more oriental name? 18:33 It may not be the person's actual given name IRL, though. 18:34 I mean, I'm pretty sure Larien Telrunya isn't actually elvish IRL. 18:34 <[Demo]> but to think oriental when i think of tariru im not crazy? 18:34 Nor am I actually a Rechabite. 18:34 <[Demo]> like theres some reason for me to have that association in hy head? 18:35 The name may well be of oriential etymology, yes. 18:35 Possibly. 18:35 Among other things, it follows the standard CVCVCVCV pattern. 18:35 Which is common in several Asian language families. 18:35 "u" at the end of a word is almost silent/unpronounced in Japanese 18:35 so it could just be "Tarir" in Japanese spelling 18:36 I thought it was only silent after an unvoiced consonant. 18:36 oh, that could be it 18:36 it's clearly pronounced if lengthened (i.e. "uu") 18:36 so maybe it is in other cases too 18:37 I think it gets shortened into oblivion after unvoiced consonants, e.g. in words like tonkatsu. 18:37 And gozaimasu 18:37 And desu 18:38 Unless the syllable is needed to make the meter work in a song. 18:39 In which case all bets are off. 18:40 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 18:59 -!- Tariru_ has joined #hardfought 19:02 -!- Tariru has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:06 Nooo I am so stupid :( 19:07 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:43480 19:07 go hothraxxa! 19:08 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:43491 19:11 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) performed the invocation, on T:43505 19:13 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) genocided class m, on T:59806 19:15 !tell FIQ With the way movement points are allocated, putting a "did you move" check on the code that grants you bonus actions means that you could theoretically walk up to something, having just banked a bonus action or two, and hit it a few times. 19:15 Will do, aosdict! 19:16 !tell FIQ However, it doesn't work to put this check on the code that deducts movement points either - because then bonus movement points due to polyself will be removed as well whenever you do something that isn't move. 19:16 Will do, aosdict! 19:18 I suppose that could work, if we made it consistent by declaring "all speed bonuses are effective only on movement, whenever some creature takes an action that isn't moving it automatically zeroes their movement points" 19:19 The ramifications are that if you're fighting ants or something, and standing still, you hit each other at the same speed. 19:21 [hdf-us] [dyn] I Wanna Be The Grasshopper (Luxidream) (Bar Hum Fem Cha), 791838 points, T:62068, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/L/Luxidream/dynahack/dumplog/2018-04-01%2019_21_08%2C%20I%20Wanna%20Be%20The%20Grasshopper-Bar-Hum-Fem-Cha%2C%20ascended.txt 19:28 Grats Luxidream 19:29 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 19:34 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:43893 19:34 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the high priest of Moloch, on T:43900 19:36 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:43913 19:43 [hdf-us] [dyn] I Wanna Be The Rodney (Luxidream) (Kni Hum Fem Law), 2254 points, T:2846, killed by a mumak 19:45 <@luxidream> I'm so bad 19:55 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:44736 20:00 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 418 points, T:1504, killed by a dog called Yermak 20:04 <@april_fools_name_here> !race dnh 20:04 @april_fools_name_here: human 20:05 <@april_fools_name_here> !race dnh 20:05 @april_fools_name_here: human 20:05 <@april_fools_name_here> !race dn 20:05 @april_fools_name_here: orc 20:05 <@april_fools_name_here> !race dnh 20:05 @april_fools_name_here: drow 20:07 Grumble 20:13 [hdf-us] [dnh] rikersan (Brd Hlf Mal Neu), 1575 points, T:1667, killed by a gnome lord, while fainted from lack of food 20:18 to anyone whose terminal got affected: type 'reset' and it should be fixed 20:21 the actual bytesequence is c7 8e 30 33 8c 79 43 47 f8 74 a6 66 7e 28 5c 8b fc a 20:21 however, I don't think that monster name is what caused it; because when I cat it in my terminal, the terminal doesn't get messed up 20:31 Elronnd: I can't see anything in that that would cause the problem; there are a few C1 codes but most of them aren't implemented by most terminals 20:31 and the remaining one is SS2 which only has a temporary effect 20:31 -!- Tariru_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:34 nothing happened even in xterm, though 20:34 and xterm implemenmts everything 20:34 *implements 20:53 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 1198 points, T:2021, killed by a kobold lord 20:53 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 20:53 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:00 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 400 points, T:600, killed by a gnome lord 21:05 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) completed Sokoban, on T:22791 21:11 [hdf-us] [nh] vergessen (Cav Gno Fem Neu), 1250 points, T:1925, killed by a gas spore's explosion 21:12 !tell larientelrunya we should use this http://tengine.taobao.org/ 21:12 Will do, Elronnd! 21:12 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) killed Medusa, on T:29080 21:24 [hdf-us] [nh] vergessen (Sam Hum Mal Law), 121 points, T:376, poisoned by a rotted kobold corpse 21:28 K2: any chance of hdf hosting slashem? Europe is too far away!! 21:38 !. 21:38 Elronnd: Does it have xlogfile yet? 21:39 jonadab: I think my slashem forkhas xlog 21:40 yep https://github.com/Elronnd/slashem/commit/8923812602acf300b01107a43cb0ccf19c833d96 21:42 K2: for extra goodies: https://github.com/Elronnd/slashem-next 21:45 -!- driador has joined #hardfought 21:49 <[Demo]> holy fucking god 21:49 <[Demo]> i got banished from like right below minetown to level fucking 94 21:49 -!- driador has quit [Client Quit] 21:55 rip 22:04 -!- greqrg has quit [Quit: Disconnected] 22:18 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Fem Law), 3378 points, T:3554, killed by an ape, while fainted from lack of food 22:30 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:35 jonadab: re nhbrass, what is wrong with statuscolors? IT seems fine to me 22:51 [hdf-us] [nh4] kek (Val Dwa Fem Law), 1460 points, T:37, quit 22:56 [hdf-us] [nd] vergessen (Bar Hum Mal Cha), 1910 points, T:2634, killed by a jackal 23:04 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 23:04 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 23:06 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 26952 points, T:24042, killed by a mumak 23:09 man, I gotta not panic when I encounter a tough foe. I had so many means of escape and I just ran instead. 23:12 Hmm, did someone change the "Congratulations, mortal!" message in 3.6.1? 23:12 It now says "Mortal, thou hast done well!" 23:13 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 23:13 Ah, PatR incorporated a suggestion that "Congratulations" was too modern. 23:34 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 23:43 [hdf-us] [fh] ahrimen (Val Dwa Fem Law), 50840 points, T:8988, killed by a wolf, while engraving 23:46 [hdf-us] [4k] kek (Val Hum Fem Neu), 10014 points, T:4895, killed by a werewolf