00:03 !tell aosdict I like the tweaks to orctown. shopkeeper barricaded in its own shop was unexpected 00:03 Will do, K2! 00:04 is that the first you got orctown? 00:04 aosdict: Message from K2 at 2018-03-31 00:03 EDT: I like the tweaks to orctown. shopkeeper barricaded in its own shop was unexpected 00:04 also did you see my message about changing branches 00:06 first time in orctown with xnh yes 00:06 no i didnt see your message about that 00:06 it was in #xnethack 00:06 oh 00:08 alright i gotta get to bed 00:08 see you tomorrow 00:13 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:15 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 00:15 -!- stenno is now known as Guest85073 00:21 !tell K2 hmm, a problem with my concept of the conduct as not scaring any monsters via the floor is temples. If those count, then you have to be really careful never to move next to a monster in a coaligned temple. If not, you can abuse that. 00:21 Will do, aosdict! 00:41 [hdf-us] [slex] colforbin (Pri Gig Mal Neu), 150 points, T:328, killed by a monster (gnome zombie) 00:57 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased helping hand", on T:51551 01:07 [hdf-us] [dnh] Rune (Pri Inc Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed bag of holding", on T:43045 01:08 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed the Platinum Dragon, on T:52203 01:12 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:12 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 01:29 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 01:39 [hdf-us] [dnh] Rune (Pri Inc Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:43505 01:49 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 02:35 can mines end leave bones? 02:45 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:45 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 03:16 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:00 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) made her first wish - "blessed rustproof master key of thievery", on T:47951 04:03 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 04:03 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 04:11 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 04:11 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 04:32 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 04:37 . 04:37 LarienTelrunya: Message from @riker at 2018-03-30 12:14 EDT: vaapad == juyo, already in the game 04:37 LarienTelrunya: Message from Chris_ANG at 2018-03-30 12:14 EDT: re telling you which ward is on a spellbook even if you already know it: That has been sitting on the to-do list for ages now. Re vaapad lightsaber form: That's a variant of Form... 7?... that works against/has a lot to do with the Dark Side of the Force. Since there's no Force in dnh, there's no Vaapad. Juyo is very similar to how Vaapad would be, though. 04:37 LarienTelrunya: Message from Chris_ANG at 2018-03-30 12:16 EDT: re false trickeries: Not sure. You seem to get more than the usual amount. 04:37 LarienTelrunya: Message from Chris_ANG at 2018-03-30 12:18 EDT: re message order with bloodied etc: That has been on the refinements list for ages, but given how the bloodied/etc messages are currently implemented wouldn't be straightforward to implement. 04:37 LarienTelrunya: Message from Tariru_ at 2018-03-30 13:11 EDT: Wiping a cream pie off my face in my SLEX game has managed to overflow the blindness counter to a negative (-3355432), and there seems to be no way to remove the blindness now. 04:38 ugh... that shouldn't have happened 04:46 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:53 !tell K2 pushed two fixes for Tariru's game. It's on the slex-2.1.7 branch again. Only allmain.c and invent.c have been changed. Hopefully the update will go without a hitch this time ;) 04:53 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 05:43 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed rustproof amulet of reflection", on T:49236 05:44 -!- Tariru has joined #hardfought 05:50 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:49241 05:51 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 05:51 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 05:57 LarienTelrunya: Hi Amy, did you get my message about the blindness counter being buggy? 05:58 hi Tariru! yes, I issued a fix, now waiting for K2 to update the server 05:58 judging from your ttyrec, something cream pied you and then you wiped it off and somehow that made the blindness counter become negative 05:58 Great, thanks! 05:58 the fix should make it so that when the blindness counter ever becomes negative for some reason, it's reset to 0 05:59 sorry about the bug 05:59 wounded legs has a similar error that I'll have to figure out how to fix 06:01 reset it to 1 06:01 not 0 06:01 -!- Tariru_ has joined #hardfought 06:02 there is a reason the game does this 06:04 -!- Tariru has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:10 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:11 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:11 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 06:14 -!- theRaisse has quit [Client Quit] 06:15 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 06:16 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse 06:17 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 06:20 FIQ: well, make_blinded() in potion.c sets "Blinded" to 0 anyway 06:21 but I guess I should reset u.ucreamed too 06:27 Tariru_: just play the rest of the game zen 06:27 how farareyou btw 06:28 Slex would be pretty hard to do zen, given all the monsters with horrible effects when hit, plus the fact that telepathy/warning don't always work. 06:28 I think I got down to about level 75 or so? 06:29 how are you findng slex so far 06:29 I'm liking it, it's a nice change from vanilla. 06:29 I see 06:29 Gehennom is huuuuge in it though. 06:30 And you can't just skip through it one-shotting everything either. 06:30 You know about theYendorin Tower? 06:30 Yendorian even 06:30 I saw it mentioned, but I don't know what exactly it entails. 06:35 the yendorian tower is a mandatory dungeon that comes after you got the Amulet of Yendor; it's 100 levels long, and you have to find three yellow staircases there and enter each of them while carrying the Amulet. 06:36 If any of the alignment key bosses (Nightmare, Beholder and Vecna) have not been killed yet, they will spawn in much stronger form in those one-level branches 06:38 100 levels long? Wow. 06:38 yeah, it'll feel like running a marathon 06:38 Are they the regular full level size, or smaller like Vlad's? 06:39 regular, and can be any kind of level: rooms and corridors, mazes, demon lairs (spawning lords that you didn't get during Gehennom) etc. 06:40 So the yellow staircases could be on any random level in all that? 06:40 yes 06:40 So you more or less have to explore/map every level of it. 06:40 Yeah. Scrolls of magic mapping will speed up the process. 06:41 why do yo think I am suggesting bhaak only allow ascended variants for "all variants" trophies 06:42 well my suggestion is still to make junethack 2 months long, then there's definitely enough time to get a slexcension ;) 06:45 citation needed 06:50 Evil Patch Idea (inspired by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HinxP57TIhI ): There's no way to drop or throw individual items (except quivered ammo). Instead, you now have a Purge command that destroys half your stuff and drops the rest on the floor. Of course, cursed equipped items are skipped. 06:51 You don't get to pick which stuff is destroyed. 06:51 heh, what slex has is a trap that randomly destroys items in your open inventory, but it's limited to stuff that can be destroyed by fire/cold/shock/poison 06:52 Apparently Polybot-7 removes the tedium of inventory management by taking all control out of the player's hands and giving it to the RNG. 06:52 I cannot imagine anyone thinking this would be a fun game to play. 06:53 oh it's one of Kyzrati's 7DRLs? 07:03 yes 07:26 <@Winsalot> @FIQ One balrog from mine's end. No idea where the other two came from. That's why I posted it on reddit. 07:27 ah 07:28 <@Winsalot> Ok, seems like I will have to start using g key 07:29 <@Winsalot> maybe I will die less then 07:30 just shift+HJKLYUBN 07:30 it does the same thing in NH4 07:31 <@Winsalot> But I use arrowkeys + yubn 07:31 ooh I did that too for a while 07:31 in fact the reason I eventually learned hjklyubn was because of GruntHack 07:33 <@Winsalot> My keyboard looks liek this: y u h j k l b n So using keys in one like for up-down, left-right feels very unintuitive 07:34 !who 07:34 LarienTelrunya: [hdf-us] No current players 07:34 LarienTelrunya: [hdf-eu] AmyBSOD [slex] winsalot [fh] 07:36 <@Winsalot> Btw, how does nhfourk compare to fh? 07:36 <@Winsalot> Wanna give it a try 07:36 LarienTelrunya thinks it's much better than FIQHack 07:37 mtf thinks FIQHack is better 07:37 try it, see if you like it 07:37 Winsalot: play Nethack Fourk! *bundlebundlebundle* :) 07:37 it has different design goals than FIQHack 07:37 You'll miss out on a bunch of QoL features 07:38 That's probably the only objective improvements you miss I think 07:38 4k has its own though 07:38 magic chests 07:38 consecration 07:38 sokoban re-roll 07:38 <@Winsalot> What's the design goal for fourk? 07:38 sorry if I get it wrong jonadab 07:39 4k's design goals is to work as a testing ground for balance adjustments to vanilla NH4 07:39 This is/was its primary goal 07:39 IMO the worst part of 4k is the change to alignment record 07:40 I think LarienTelrunya agrees, because it completely screws Samurai over 07:40 But that's the *worst* part 07:40 Doesn't mean 4k is bad 07:40 It's just different 07:40 it is a rather annoying change, but I somehow managed to ascend the samurai anyway, even though I intermittently was at rock bottom alignment record 07:41 one of the absolute worst changes, though, is called "wand destruction patch" (well actually it's not called that, but I call it that) 07:41 You will know this from FIQHack already @Winsalot 07:41 It works slightly differently in 4k, but not significantly so 07:41 <@Winsalot> You mean wand balance patch? 07:41 <@Winsalot> I really like it 07:41 (I think the most notable thing is that 4k has even more item destruction because it doesn't have the later nerf I added) 07:41 Yeah I like it too 07:42 LarienTelrunya doesn't :P 07:42 The thing I personally miss the most when going to 4k from FIQHack 07:42 is peaceful displacement, and object memory 07:42 <@Winsalot> object memory? 07:42 The thing I miss the most from 4k when going to FIQHack 07:43 is magic chests 07:43 @Winsalot In FIQHack, you can press ctrl+f to search for objects your character has seen 07:43 <[Demo]> its funny to say that cause ur fiq 07:43 [Demo]: I try to be objective. It was a while ago I played 4k so I am not doing a good job at it 07:43 <[Demo]> I like dnh magic chests best 07:44 <[Demo]> where they are objects and not a dungeon feature 07:44 <@Winsalot> Never used Ctrl-f in FH 07:44 @Winsalot If you are going to tell me that you didn't know this feature existed, then I don't know 07:44 <[Demo]> its god tier 07:44 I need to somehow tell people "hey this is a thing" 07:44 <[Demo]> like its the best thing fiqhack has probably 07:44 because it's *really convenient* 07:44 <@Winsalot> lol 07:44 and yet nobody knows about it 07:44 <[Demo]> like i actually have some degree of respect for fh because of it 07:45 it's IMO *the* QoL feature FIQHack has over everything else 07:45 <@Winsalot> And like the design goel of FIQhack is symmetry between players and monsters + better AI? 07:45 @Winsalot FIQHack has 3 design goals 07:45 <[Demo]> i dont like that i think thats kinda dumb but i like a lot of the qol shit 07:45 1: Improving the monster AI 07:45 2: Improving the symmetry between players and monsters 07:46 3: Improving quality of life 07:46 <[Demo]> im fine with 1 and 3 but 2 is cruel 07:46 <[Demo]> but at least fiqhack has fucking goals 07:46 [Demo]: It's not just players who are hurt with that change 07:46 Monsters are too 07:46 <[Demo]> yeah but i dont care about monsters 07:46 For example, covetousness is nerfed to the ground 07:46 <@Winsalot> Nice. I think 2 still needs some refinements. Once perfect symmetry is achieved it will be perfect 07:47 <@Winsalot> Like monsters should have normal levels, not some hit dice 07:47 <[Demo]> all i care about is myself and my pets, monsters are just dumb obstacles that need to go awat 07:47 <@Winsalot> and should be able to level up 07:47 <[Demo]> which is funny right, cause pets are monsters 07:47 @Winsalot they can 07:47 but the way it works atm is really weird 07:47 basically, as monsters kill stuff 07:47 they gain max HP 07:47 if the max HP is enough that it would be "wrong" with their current level 07:47 they gain a level 07:48 they can only gain levels up to 1.5x their base level 07:48 or 49 with some exceptions for whatever reason 07:48 <@Winsalot> Hm. I just want polyinit mode to not feel any different from noral mode (except for being overpowered part 😉 ) 07:48 I have done some minor tweaks to polyinit to make it work a bit better 07:49 For example, while polymorphed you have awful HP regeneration 07:49 This doesn't apply to polyinit 07:49 Also, while polymorphed, you can't exercise attributes 07:49 In polyinit, you can 07:49 <@Winsalot> Yeah, polyinit was quite playable. But it was weird not seeing constant HD instead of my actual XL 07:50 Ultimately, polyinit should just make your polyinit form the "base form" 07:50 <@Winsalot> About attributes, I'm not sure it works. Last I played polyinit I don't think I ever had my attributes exercised. 07:50 <@Winsalot> When was it changes? 07:50 Hm 07:50 I know I wanted to change that 07:50 Maybe I forgot 07:50 Let me check 07:51 <[Demo]> dammit i need to multi thousand hp ootas dnh 07:51 !tell K2 pushed a fix 07:51 Will do, FIQ! 07:52 @Winsalot next update should fix it 07:52 <@Winsalot> Thanks ❤ 07:58 @Winsalot [backscroll] There are obstacles to _perfect_ symmetry. For instance, monsters implicitly know the dungeon layout including areas and floors they haven't visited; there's no way storing map memory for every single monster would ever be feasible. 07:59 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:59 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 07:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 07:59 yes, I don't aim for perfect symmetry 07:59 but as long as it's feasible 07:59 and even in some cases where it might not be... 07:59 I aim for symmetry 07:59 <@Winsalot> As long as player can't tell the difference 😃 08:01 <@Winsalot> Oh, I can't maintain spells in fourk? 08:01 <@Winsalot> I guess that variant is not for me 😃 08:07 FIQHack created that feature 08:08 dNetHack eventually merged it 08:08 no other variants have it 08:09 What problem is it trying to solve, ultimately? 08:10 Spell maintenance? 08:10 Avoiding the need to recast a spell over and over for buff-related spells 08:12 <@Winsalot> Makes protection actually useful 😃 08:12 Protection can't be cast with body armoer anymore 08:12 *armor 08:13 It retains its strength otherwise 08:13 -!- remirol is now known as lorimer 08:14 FIQ: wtf? considering everyone except the monk always wears dragon scale mail, that means the spell became literally useless once you obtain said DSM 08:15 it is a level 1 spell 08:15 <[Demo]> haha fortunately its still strong in dnh 08:15 and I have no issues with making Protection an alternative to body armor 08:15 for casters 08:15 and that means it has to be useless later on? consider what other level 1 spells can do, like force bolt and knock, those don't become useless either 08:15 the AC it gives is rather high 08:15 you can forego body armor alltogether 08:16 <[Demo]> can monsters not use it if they have on body armour? 08:16 you still need reflection and MR, also the dragon scale mail can be enchanted to +5 08:16 which reduces on carrycap concerns, and protection gives *more* AC than DSM 08:16 when highlevel 08:16 [Demo]: good point, I need to check that. They can't, but their AI might try it 08:16 FIQ: I'm just not sure spell maintenance is the correct solution for that. 08:17 LarienTelrunya: highlevel protection can give more AC 08:17 than +5DSM 08:17 hmm 08:17 and you can get reflectio nand MR elsewhere 08:17 *reflection 08:17 the point is 08:17 protection as it was was much too strong 08:17 <@Winsalot> You mean at highet XL or at higher skill? 08:17 I think this makes it a viable alternative, particularly for casters 08:17 but you'll probably have to wear the amulet to get reflection then, which means no life saving :P 08:17 but not OP 08:17 @Winsalot both 08:18 <@Winsalot> Cool 08:19 <[Demo]> autoexplore is so dumb to me 08:19 <[Demo]> because it has you step on every squre 08:19 <[Demo]> like what 08:19 <[Demo]> why would i ever want to do that? 08:19 that isn't true 08:19 <[Demo]> oh? 08:19 it will not step on every square 08:19 <[Demo]> hmm 08:19 <[Demo]> maybe i just never use it with lights 08:19 you can see what tiles you have stepped on 08:19 <[Demo]> or maybe i just never use it 08:19 with that it's clear that it doesn't step everywhere 08:23 <[Demo]> when are you gonna fix the issue with like it not reading off in the top bar what you step on or is that fixed? 08:23 <[Demo]> like if youve stepped on a square before and you step on it again it doesnt pline whats on the square 08:24 huh? 08:24 oh that 08:25 I forgot 08:25 will look into it no 08:25 w 08:25 brb 08:35 <@Winsalot> Btw, just interested, FIQ, what do you do in life? I mean what profession and stuff? 08:49 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:50 I am in uni kind of 08:50 have a bunch of stuff left... expect to be done next summer 08:50 unless I find work beforehand 08:59 <@Winsalot> oh, something with IT? 09:02 yes 09:02 !tell K2 pushed a fix, apparently "travelling" the variable doesn't mean travel 09:02 Will do, FIQ! 09:30 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:33 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 09:33 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 09:33 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 09:50 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 09:50 K2: "packet_write_wait: Connection to 24.2.155.198 port 22: Broken pipe" 09:50 rip >1M connection 09:53 ais523: I pushed a change to monster generation that kind of fixed the dragon issue. I'm unsure if it's a good fix for NetHack4 vanilla though 09:54 It also has the "this particular way of generation ignores your XL" problem remain unsolved 09:54 err 09:54 *respects your XL 09:55 what does it change? 09:55 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-28 11:53 EDT: the if check in makemon.c:1485 (nethack4 code) contains the offending code preventing things like dragons from appearing. It also violates the "don't account for player level" thing. What I did now was to add a "tryct > 500" to that if, so that if the game really wants something to appear, it will still happen, while minesflayers remain non-existent (in practice) 09:55 ais523: Message from aosdict at 2018-03-28 23:38 EDT: Know of any exploits that revolve around leaking or manipulating object ids? 09:55 ais523: Message from jonadab at 2018-03-29 08:31 EDT: < tubs > It runs the linker to find the absolute paths for the required system libraries, but ld changed so instead of giving paths to the .dylib, it gives paths to the .tbd 09:56 aosdict: you can use an object ID leak to determine whether or not an item was created 09:56 I'm not sure how exploitable that is 09:56 ais523: It makes out of depth issues ignored after 500 of the 1k tries 09:57 ais523: Doesn't matter now anyway, I changed the code I was writing to use a hash instead of direct object ID 09:57 vanilla already uses object IDs anywawy 09:57 in a very stupid way IMO 09:57 credit cards 09:58 is 100% deterministic for each game based on object ID 09:58 sure 09:58 I mean, that could be hashed too if it were too exploitable 09:59 still deterministic but not easy to figure out 09:59 vanilla also uses object IDs to determine what a HoOA does for neutrals IIRC 09:59 in a way that means that if you can afford 2 wishes for HoOA 09:59 -!- callforjudgement has joined #hardfought 09:59 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59 you will always get the 2 different alignment possibilities 09:59 Ok, that should probably be hashed. 09:59 making it even easier to ascend on 1st altar as neutral 09:59 -!- callforjudgement is now known as ais523 10:00 4k uses hashaing to determine what spiked pits are poisoned IIRC 10:00 *hashing 10:00 I mean, still better than 3.4.3 where all you had to do was have a means of removing the curse on the helm. 10:01 aosdict: yeah but it can fail multiple times 10:01 giving monsters more time to demolish you 10:01 which can be a real issue if you can't afford trying more than 1 altar 10:03 -!- Guest85073 has quit [Changing host] 10:03 -!- Guest85073 has joined #hardfought 10:03 -!- Guest85073 is now known as stenno 10:17 <@Winsalot> Is polyinit attriute exercise patch already active on herdfought? 10:18 -!- Tariru_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:33 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 10:33 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 10:38 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 10:50 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 686 points, T:1932, killed by a rothe 11:22 Hmm, when I last talked about trying to remove luck from the game, I don't remember what most of the overall opinions on it were. 11:22 I'm thinking of outlining a mini-proposal along those lines. 11:26 [hdf-us] [slex] matt (Jed Hum Mal Neu), 11793 points, T:2694, quit 11:28 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:33 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 11:33 -!- stenno is now known as Guest40145 11:37 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 11:43 aosdict: removing luck? Isn't that kind of a fundamental element of nethack? 11:43 well, I'll read your proposal 11:44 luck's less fundamental than you'd think 11:46 hm, I can't imagine playing nethack without caring about the phase of the moon 11:47 well it'd still have minor effects 11:47 they're pretty minor even as-is 11:47 Friday 13 is a much bigger effect 11:48 elenmirie: There are only a very few luck-related effects that can't be converted to work with something else. 11:48 * elenmirie squirms 11:48 Such as breaking mirrors, and the phase of the moon. 11:48 luckstone, the use of gems and unicorns 11:49 sacrificing, being able to write unknown scrolls and books 11:49 throne effects 11:49 cheating in sokoban 11:49 hi 11:49 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 11:49 K2: Message from aosdict at 2018-03-31 00:21 EDT: hmm, a problem with my concept of the conduct as not scaring any monsters via the floor is temples. If those count, then you have to be really careful never to move next to a monster in a coaligned temple. If not, you can abuse that. 11:49 K2: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2018-03-31 04:53 EDT: pushed two fixes for Tariru's game. It's on the slex-2.1.7 branch again. Only allmain.c and invent.c have been changed. Hopefully the update will go without a hitch this time ;) 11:49 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-31 07:51 EDT: pushed a fix 11:49 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-31 09:02 EDT: pushed a fix, apparently "travelling" the variable doesn't mean travel 11:49 unsuccessful conversions of altars 11:49 elenmirie: if you want to see my unsorted notes on this so far, they're on my religion and alignment overhaul etherpad 11:49 section "Removing Luck from the Game" 11:50 I'll have a look 11:50 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 11:52 Slash'EM Extended updated (us and eu) 11:52 in particular, about half of luck effects and influences should be moved to religion stuff anyway 11:52 ah 11:53 can you repost the link to your etherpad... I lost it again :( 11:53 https://etherpad.net/p/NetHack_Religion%2C_Alignment%2C_and_Luck 11:53 thanks 11:53 a lot of other luck effects can be changed to skill / attribute checks, for instance writing scrolls can be an Int or Wis check 11:54 removal of luck stuff doesn't imply removing all the mechanics it influences, it just means a lot of them should be changed so that they work without it 11:55 I instinctively feel sad about that. I think I need to think about why 11:57 you'll note there is a separate collection of ideas for luck, which is for if it weren't to be removed, but we still want to balance it and extricate it from religion stuff. 12:04 @Winsalot Apart from the aforementioned balance change testing already explained, another goal of Fourk is to improve variety by making existing elements (e.g., roles, monsters) more distinct from each other, or by introducing a small number of genuinely distinctive ones. 12:05 Which is the same goal as slex, but is a very different approach. 12:05 Quite different, yes. Slex adds a large number of things. 12:05 Fourk adds a tiny number of things, but focuses on making them genuinely distinctive. 12:06 So instead of adding 300 playable races, I added, umm, three, I think. 12:06 Sylph, giant, scurrier. 12:06 still no segfaulter race? genuinely unplayable! 12:06 I have one role in mind I want to add (Druid). 12:06 Roles require a bit more thought though. 12:06 And then I make changes to existing ones to push them further apart from each other. 12:07 Entails designing a whole quest, and all that. 12:07 e.g., Samurai is no longer "like valkyrie without cold resistance", and Barbarian is no longer "Valkyrie with worse weapon choices". 12:08 I am trying to make Wizard not be "Like squishy Valkyrie with terrible weapon choices." 12:08 etc. 12:08 <@Winsalot> Sounds very nice. But then, why are there so many variants? For example, it doesn't sound like fh and 4k have conflicting goals, so why not work on the same project? 12:08 port the fiqhack wizard patch :-) 12:09 @Winsalot Usually there's one irreconcilable thing. 12:09 I think fh doesn't want to add races and roles, whereas Fourk does. 12:10 -!- Guest40145 has quit [Changing host] 12:10 -!- Guest40145 has joined #hardfought 12:10 -!- Guest40145 is now known as stenno 12:10 Meanwhile I'd be happy to be working on or forking off from fiqhack... except it's 3.4.3-based, and I want to be keeping up with vanilla directly. 12:15 it would be easier to add the notable 3.6.0 features than adding NH4 on 3.6 I think 12:16 @Winsalot If I were starting Fourk today, I would base it on FIQHack. But FIQHack didn't exist when I started Fourk. 12:17 @Winsalot I plan to rebase eventually, but that's a quite substantial undertaking, so it will happen some time _after_ 4.3.0.5 release. 12:18 And yes, it would be easier to rebase 3.6.1 onto FIQHack, than vice versa. Because 3.6.1 has fewer changes from 3.4.0, than FIQHack has from NH4, let alone from 3.4.3. 12:19 Especially, it has fewer code-refactor type changes. 12:19 Which are really hard to rebase. 12:20 Fourk is comparatively easier to rebase (than FIQHack), because most of its changes are straightforward additions, not refactors. With a few exceptions. 12:21 this is similar to "Ace onto Nitro is easier than the reverse" 12:21 in retrospect, though, I should have done Nitro onto Ace, taking only the changes which weren't completely insane 12:21 see that is what worries me 12:21 fiqhack has a couple of refactors 12:21 <@Winsalot> Btw, all nethack and variants are written in C? 12:21 but nobody else than me has really looked at the code 12:22 to see if it's insane or not 12:22 for all you know I could be writing daniel_t code 12:22 code quality is a troublesome metric. it only really matters if you change the code often. 12:23 @Winsalot yes 12:23 FIQ: perhaps, but it'd still probably be better to backtrack from it than forwardtrack? 12:23 if the maintenance of your code is high, you're doing something wrong. but finding out what you are doing wrong is difficult :) 12:23 ais523: what is that supposed to mean 12:23 @Winsalot: more or less; they differ in the dialect of C used, but it's hard to change the language of a project this large 12:23 FIQ: reimplement the changes one at a time 12:23 @Winsalot: NetHack is actually older than C is, it was originally written in a pre-release/pre-standard version of C 12:23 <@Winsalot> omfg lol 12:24 older than ANSI C, at least 12:24 FIQ: In general, I trust your code at least as much as I trust the Dev Team's code. 12:24 jonadab: that isn't very reassuring :) 12:24 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:24 but yeah I suppose I can't be worse than them at least 12:25 @Winsalot Yes, Hack was written in C, and NetHack and all subsequent variants are based on it, so yes. 12:25 there was a mini-flame-war on the devteam internal list a while back because someone initialised an "auto"-storage-class array 12:25 Moving to another language would mean a complete rewrite, at which point you wouldn't necessarily be a variant any more. 12:25 MOre like a completely new game, possibly inspired by NetHack. 12:26 pathos 12:26 comes to mind 12:26 Pathos is less similar to NetHack than NetHack is to Rogue. 12:26 pathos serves as a really good illustration of the NetHack philosophy, by omission 12:26 <@Winsalot> pathos is another language? 12:26 no, another computer game 12:26 ANd NetHack isn't a variant of Rogue, it's a similar game. 12:26 it was intended to be a "reimplementation of NetHack" originally 12:26 I don't know if we know in what language Pathos is written 12:26 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Ran Elf Mal Cha), 4230 points, T:2146, quit 12:26 although it's diverged somewhat, partly for licensing reasons 12:26 C# iirc 12:26 <@Winsalot> I know pathos, installed it yesterday on my phone 12:27 the engine code (but not the game itself) is open 12:27 and yes, it's written in C#, I was given some of the source code when checking for license violations 12:27 ais523: Pathos is similar enough that you can steal ideas from it 12:27 <@Winsalot> Btw, what are your thoughts on pixel dungeon? 12:27 Pathos is similar to NetHack in some very superficial ways, but five minutes trying to play it will immediately clue you in that it's not similar in *important* ways. 12:27 As I understood it, you can hire the Minetown Watch as mercenaries yourself 12:27 I don't konw much about Pixel Dungeon 12:28 Which is IMO a worthwhile idea (on soldiers in general) 12:28 jonadab: agreed 12:28 a friend of mine played it and he was very happy about it 12:28 I know nothing about Pixel Dungeon 12:28 aside from "it's a thing" 12:28 (one that also played a lot of nethack) 12:28 many people object to concepts like TDTTOE 12:28 <@Winsalot> Has awesome UI for touchscreen 12:28 they think that the entire space of things-that-are-possible-in-the-game should be clear and given up front to avoid spoilers 12:28 Pathos is a game for those people 12:28 its simplified nethack from what i've heard 12:28 <@Winsalot> Otherwise pretty shallow compared to nethack 12:28 yeah 12:29 stenno: Pathos is simplified NetHack in roughly the same sense that tic-tac-toe is simplified chess. 12:29 jonadab: No 12:29 No, wait, Go, not chess. 12:29 It's much closer than that 12:29 An untrained eye wont see the difference 12:29 jonadab: oh i talked about pixel dungeon 12:29 Oh, Pixel Dungeon. No idea. 12:30 it says it has 'the soul of nethack' 12:30 By its name, I assume it doesn't run in a terminal, so I haven't investigated further. 12:30 i think its designed to be a mobile game 12:31 I, see, my idea of mobility is being able to run in a screen session so I can attach to it from anywhere on the network. 12:31 <@Winsalot> And it's great at being mobile game. Not so great at other aspects though. 12:31 * jonadab is a curmudgeon. 12:31 I wish the Pyra could come out sooner... 12:31 OP is busted, having no sane terminal on the go is really annoying 12:31 the thing about those roguelites or roguelikes is, if they are well-designed game, you can program windowports easily 12:32 you _can_ do it in nethack but its not easy :P 12:32 at least from what i've seen 12:32 I have my phone, and while it does have a hardware keyboard, it's rather mediocre 12:32 (leagues above virtual touch keyboards, but still) 12:32 crawl is very good in it i think 12:33 stenno: DCSS is terrible at windowports 12:33 DCSS proponents keep saying "webtiles" to me. 12:33 I haven't really tried to write a NetHack windowport from scratch 12:33 Not sure how those compare to hterm. 12:33 but from what I've seen of the curses interface 12:33 it doesn't seem that bad 12:34 it does have some issues 12:34 for example, the engine assumes a single-line message bar in more than one place 12:34 but it seems to be mostly OK 12:34 jonadab: DCSS windowports basically don't have any sort of stable API, from what I understand 12:34 and have special cased coding all over the place 12:35 webtiles is normally considered a better interface than ASCII quite independent of any ASCII versus tiles arguments, or even TUI versus GUI 12:35 but simply because it has better layout, controls, etc. 12:35 jonadab: think of webtiles as, say, NH4's SDL UI (except without the bugs) 12:35 (compare NH4, which uses the opposite approach; almost all code is shared between almost all interfaces) 12:35 with tiles enabled 12:35 that's my impression of it 12:35 but I haven't really messed with webtiles 12:36 I probably should 12:36 need to figure out why everyone seems to think it's superior 12:36 to its terminal UI 12:36 personally the only benefit I see with it 12:36 is tiles support 12:36 ais523: Right, I prefer the NH4 approach on that. 12:37 well it's much easier from a maintenance point of view 12:37 ais523: Have you seen the web-based windowport for NetHack? How hard do you think it would be to adapt it into a decent windowport that can be played for, say, hardfought? 12:38 I have some issues with it from an UI point of view, but it seems like the bulk of the work is done there internals-wise 12:38 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Gol Duf Fem Cha), 1535 points, T:1357, killed by a monster (yaki mochi) 12:39 YANI: make libuncursed support a web-based UI as an alternative to SDL. 12:39 FIQ: "the" web-based windowport? 12:39 I'd be surprised if exactly one of those existed 12:39 but I'm not sure how many are any good 12:39 There might be several 12:39 but I am thinking of this one 12:39 sec 12:39 jonadab: I've been considering it 12:39 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 12:40 http://coolwanglu.github.io/BrowserHack/ 12:40 this one 12:42 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Gol Dwa Mal Law), 112 points, T:185, killed by an icy touch 12:44 FIQ: some of the animations are really annoying but I imagine that's fixable 12:44 ais523: as said, I found the UI itself a bit annoying/awkward 12:45 but I meant, I think the codebase might be a worthwhile starting point 12:45 for a webtiles-esque NetHack 12:45 biggest issue I've found is menu scrolling 12:45 I don't think there's a way to do it with the keyboard 12:48 @Winsalot how's new HP/Pw growth 12:48 !lastgame winsalot 12:48 FIQ: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/w/winsalot/fiqhack/dumplog/2018-03-08%2013%3A21%3A02%2C%20Mourne-Pri-Hum-Mal-Cha%2C%20died.txt 12:48 FIQ: [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/w/winsalot/fiqhack/dumplog/2018-03-31%2016%3A46%3A34%2C%20Losesalot-Pri-Hum-Mal-Cha%2C%20died.txt 12:48 Ah, *that's* why Scorpius' level is so weird. 12:48 <@Winsalot> You changed it again? 12:48 aosdict: Based on old Elf quest 12:48 where you fight... some gnome iirc? 12:49 @Winsalot 12:49 no 12:49 I am wondering how the new system plays like 12:49 since you've played a bit with it 12:49 <@Winsalot> I think yesterday I had character with ~65 HP at XL 11 , so it feels pretty squishy 12:49 What kind of character? 12:49 like 12:49 role/race 12:49 <@Winsalot> human priest 12:50 <@Winsalot> always human priest for me 12:50 Ah 12:50 <@Winsalot> Don't have problems with pw though. 12:51 Yes, for some reason they replaced the locate level but not the goal level. 12:51 Priest is 10th 12:51 in "roles with best HP growth" 12:51 11th is Rogue, 12th Wizard, 13th Tourist 12:51 Humans are in the middle, but races have a smaller impact than roles 12:51 actually not true 12:51 similar 12:54 ais523: if you're not at work, you can look at https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/FIQHack/New_HP_growth for current numbers in FIQHack's new system 12:54 I think the system itself is OK, just need to figure out good HP/Pw growth 12:54 I am mostly happy with the race numbers, less confident with role ones 12:55 no underscore, it's OK :-) 12:55 underscore? 12:55 ais523_ 12:55 is me at work 12:56 Oh 12:56 Didn't realize 12:56 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Gol Ang Mal Law) killed Peeer, on T:1434 12:59 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 12:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:00 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) killed Scorpius, on T:52728 13:00 Is there a good reason Barbarians aren't allowed to be lawful? 13:00 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:52734 13:01 Was considering adding dwarf to their possible races 13:01 Maybe it's better to allow Dwarves to be neutral... 13:02 Fourk allows Barbarians to be lawful and to be dwarvish. 13:02 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 13:03 I had a couple of reasons for this. 13:03 Not sure if I want to allow lawful Barbaric Dwarves with Excal 13:03 They already got a buff seperately with their HP growth (Barbarians, that is) 13:03 One reason is flavor: one of the most influential characters in my conception of Barbarian is Thargor, from the Otherland series, and he was very clearly lawful. 13:03 Being allowed to also be a Dwarf would make them have extraordinary HP growth (and terrible Pw) 13:04 But the real reason was, I wanted to make Barbarian an easier race for new players. 13:04 Plus Excal, plus Cleaver... 13:04 Err, role. 13:04 which is also buffed in FIQHack 13:04 They'd easily be the new OP melee role 13:04 Excal plus Cleaver is redundant. 13:04 Can't use both at once. 13:04 jonadab: Excal before you can sac for Cleaver 13:04 Ok, sure. 13:04 Or before you have enchant weapon 13:05 Excal has excellent damage unenchante 13:05 d 13:05 [hdf-us] [nd] Rx (Hea Gno Mal Neu) became literate by engraving "Elbereth", on T:5017 13:05 The only drawback would be Barbarians' terrible quest artifact 13:05 They'd be OP otherwise 13:05 FIQ: True. 13:06 * jonadab buffed the quest artifact. 13:06 #invoke remove curse 13:06 Which goes nicely with Cleaver. 13:06 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed fireproof +5 boots of speed", on T:52821 13:06 jonadab: with new HP growth, a dwarvish Barbarian with 19 Con gets 12HP per level 13:07 That does seem like a lot. 13:11 Not to me. 13:12 OK, so at XL9 you're at 120 or so hp? Makes sense, you're a tank. 13:12 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:12 Also, I think the answer to FIQ's Excal woes is not to make it so easily accessible to so many characters in the early game. 13:16 doesn't webtiles use json for data transport 13:16 which would make it superior to hterm 13:16 iirc 13:17 I mean 13:17 doesn't hterm also use json 13:17 technically 13:17 <@Winsalot> How do I uncancel myself in FIQhack? 13:17 json to a seperate server that does the real ssh stuff 13:17 Step into a magic trap 13:17 quaff noncursed gain energy 13:17 read noncursed charging while confused 13:17 be very lucky with a cursed potion of wonder or gremlin (this is a terrible idea) 13:18 <@Winsalot> sounds very complicated as I haven't indentified almost anyhting 13:18 @Winsalot any of those 4 methods work 13:18 I am just listing all of them 13:19 Oh I forgot 13:19 <@Winsalot> Gonna go look for magic traps then 13:19 it's also a major trouble 13:19 <@Winsalot> Oh, so I can just pray it away? 13:19 Yes, assuming your prayer timeout is good 13:20 <@Winsalot> Nice. I wish prayer worked like that irl 13:20 was thinking "there has to be an easier way to remove cancellation than that earlygame" 13:20 was forgetting prayer 13:20 :P 13:20 I don't think I've ever been cancelled IRL 13:21 <@kritixilithos> winsalot: how often do you get cancelled in real life then? :P 13:21 but I don't know any magic, so maybe I have been and just didn't notice 13:21 <@Winsalot> I have been cancelled since birth 13:21 <@Winsalot> haven't used any magic sinc ethen 13:22 I'll start praying to any god that grants me IRL magic powers 13:23 <@Winsalot> what spell would be most fun irl? 13:23 <@Winsalot> create monster? 13:23 ais523: maybe a very long time ago, around medieval times, something cancelled us all 13:23 <@Winsalot> or scroll of punishment? 13:24 and we're suffering the after-effects 13:24 why else would people in those times believe in magic 13:24 <@kritixilithos> teleport control + teleportitis would be a nice intrinsic to have 13:24 how does teleport control work anyway 13:24 <@Winsalot> more like polymorph control + polymorphitis 13:25 <@kritixilithos> FIQ: ? 13:25 ais523: Do you think teleport+control is a broken mechanic? 13:25 In general I mean, not just in NetHack 13:25 FIQ: no as long as it isn't spammable 13:25 Someone was arguing this with me a while back 13:26 in some games, it may not be broken even if it is spammable 13:26 I claimed that controlled teleport wasn't broken if it had ahigh cooldown or similar 13:26 *had a high 13:26 Said person claimed that it was still broken due to being a foolproof escape method 13:26 <@kritixilithos> well you get hungrier each time 13:26 I can imagine puzzle games where free teleportation is entirely reasonable within the mechanics 13:26 Which kinda reminds me of DCSS reasoning 13:27 <@kritixilithos> I suppose one with tele control + teleportitis would eat a lot 13:27 This came out of a discussion about Caves of Qud, which has a ton of completely bonkers exploitable mechanics, like "controlled teleport with a 5-turn cooldown" 13:27 Dungeons of Dredmor used to (maybe still does) have a fairly spammable blink 13:28 it wasn't broken because most dangerous situations in that game involve monsters filling more or less the whole screen 13:28 Basically FIQHack astral? 13:30 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:30 FIQ: i mean, hterm is not a smart client, it just relays what you would see on the terminal 13:30 no abstract menus etc 13:30 abstract windwos 13:31 apart from the stuff that comes from vt_tiledata 13:33 <@Winsalot> Btw FIQ, why are you against adding new races & roles? 13:34 <@Winsalot> Or copying them from 4k 13:36 I am? 13:37 I made a guess along those lines. 13:38 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/400474774440247317/429695906296758282/Screenshot_2018-03-31_20-37-46.png 13:39 -!- tubs has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:42 <@Winsalot> Well, it's a reasonable guess from what I know about you. 13:42 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 13:43 I refrain from adding content unless I am very confident it will add positively to the game 13:43 Adding things isn't what FIQHack is about after all, but rather polishing existing stuf 13:43 f 13:44 arc attack with cleaver is pretty cool 13:44 my first time to really use it 13:44 good job FIQ 13:44 I can't say I don't add roles to FIQHack 13:44 I might, if I have an idea for one 13:44 which I like 13:44 that isn't already in some other variant 13:45 (unless it's something common across all variants or similar, to allow people to also play it in a FIQHack context -- but no such role/race exist) 13:45 <@Winsalot> Why not add/copy things roles from other variants? 13:45 <@Winsalot> As long as it's good 13:45 K2: cool to hear :) 13:45 @Winsalot People can play those variants instead 13:46 I want to retain a somewhat vanilla feel 13:46 I don't want to become a variant where people need to read a bible of wikipages to understand how to play 13:46 Sure, one monster here and there wont hurt 13:46 or items 13:46 or maybe a role 13:46 Then it adds up... 13:47 That is why I avoid adding things easily 13:47 <@Winsalot> Ok, that makes sense. 13:47 If anything I might remove monsters 13:48 damn... mind flayer in mines 13:48 !whereis K2 13:48 FIQ: [hdf-us] k2 [xnh]: No details available 13:48 aosdict: add extrainfo! 13:49 he did 13:49 thats whereis not extrainfo 13:49 aosdict: add whereis! 13:49 lol 13:50 You kill the mind flayer! woooot 14:02 aosdict: the new mines end map you made, what is its official name? 14:03 it is jonadab's 14:03 oh 14:03 hah neat 14:03 assuming it's te one with water 14:03 *the 14:03 yes 14:10 [hdf-us] [nd] Wolfechu (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the invisible Baalzebub, on T:42207 14:10 Oh, Gnomish Sewer? 14:11 [hdf-us] [nd] Rx (Hea Gno Mal Neu), 6788 points, T:7903, quit 14:12 yeah 14:16 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 14:19 <@Winsalot> There is new mine's end? 14:19 <@Winsalot> btw, the one mine's end with orcs and balrog figurine, is it documented anywhere in wiki? 14:20 Khor's Orc Temple? No idea. 14:20 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Bar Orc Mal Cha) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:10325 14:21 -!- tubs has quit [Client Quit] 14:26 FIQ: The Gnomish Sewer, yes. 14:29 -!- Tariru has joined #hardfought 14:30 FIQ: show me some code I can reference for whereis and I'll port it. 14:30 [13:46] <@FIQ> I don't want to become a variant where people need to read a bible of wikipages to understand how to play 14:30 that horse has sailed 14:30 that metaphor is mixed 14:30 fh changes are easily fatal to a vanilla player 14:32 ooo a zombie, easy! 14:32 wtf is this zombification? 14:32 etc 14:32 etc etc etc 14:32 ooo a blue dragon! AGH LIGHTNING EXPLOSIONS 14:32 where did my wands go 14:34 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 14:41 hothraxxa: Bible != a single page 14:41 with a changelog 14:41 sure but now you're arguing semantics 14:41 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 14:41 I suppose 14:42 aosdict: files.c update_whereis FIQHack 14:43 Btw, wands are no longer destroyed by lightning 14:43 They only lose charges 14:45 -!- tubs has quit [Quit: *poof*] 14:46 <@luxidream> does unnethack nerf wizard spellbook writing 14:46 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 14:46 <@luxidream> this feels like something it would do 14:46 fiq: all of them? what about rings? 14:49 !tell LarienTelrunya your patch is live, and I'm getting the "Fixing a bug that gave you a negative blindness counter..." message, but it doesn't fix the blindness. 14:49 Will do, Tariru! 14:56 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Medusa, on T:28805 14:59 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 15:01 hothraxxa: Ring destruction was removed as part of the wand rebalance patch in first place 15:02 Tariru: because larien is setting it to 0 15:02 rather than 1 15:02 oh. my memory of the details is not good 15:02 like I told her... 15:02 there is a reason that the game does this 15:02 so how many wand charges do you lose? 15:02 hothraxxa: it works similar to losing part of a potion stack 15:03 ok 15:03 each seperate wand charge has its own chance of disappearing 15:03 for every wand? 15:03 yes 15:03 i suppose that's better but not a lot 15:03 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) had Werebane bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:27590 15:04 I don't think any usage of make_blinded is going to fix it, because of the way it masks against ~TIMEOUT 15:04 remember that in FIQHack, immunities give completely foolproofness 15:04 I think setting the blindness variable directly would work, rather than the updated way of setting creamed. 15:04 against item destruction 15:04 not immunities 15:05 but extrinsics 15:05 sure but who wears a ring of shock protection all the time? or wears bdsm? 15:06 * aosdict misreads that message 15:07 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu) killed Durin's Bane, on T:29459 15:07 -!- tubs has quit [Quit: *poof*] 15:10 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:55042 15:10 hothraxxa: object properties 15:10 yes i thought of that 15:10 need a wish of really good luck 15:11 s/of/or/ 15:12 ok aosdict has buffed tins. i'm finding them everywhere. 15:12 I have not, only their labels. 15:12 have too 15:12 sheesh there's tons of xnh variant paranoia 15:13 It reads: "Pickled Spinach - Sell By January 6, 1958". 15:13 what's the odds it's really spinach? 15:13 100% 15:13 actually I forgot to make them lie about being spinach 15:13 it is! 15:14 I'll leave that in for now. 15:14 i'm popeye 15:15 a magic trap, hmm 15:15 let me take off my gloves and wield this unihorn 15:16 in my off hand 15:17 so in the off hand, it doesn't seem to self-apply 15:17 is that intended? 15:18 yes 15:18 boo 15:19 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:19 ah, the wiki page dos say in the main hand 15:21 -!- greqrg has joined #hardfought 15:21 <@Tone> If anyone is interested, I'll be continuing a live review of game #47 from Tariru's ascension streak in a few minutes, here: https://www.twitch.tv/tonelive 15:22 <@Tone> It's a Tou Hum Mal Neu, we'll be starting at sokoban and continuing on through the mid-game 15:27 and here we have the problem with wielding a unihorn barehanded. i forgot to put my gloves back on. i just killed a cockatrice and almost picked it up 15:27 i would have been really unhappy 15:27 This is considered to be working as intended, for the time being. 15:27 oh i know 15:27 but put it down as a technique i will not try again 15:28 Passive unihorn with gloves on is too powerful. 15:28 sure 15:28 i'm sure some players will use it 15:29 it's no different with casters wearing gaulntlets of power 15:29 The other option is to allow this but bring its damage way back down, but then you would complain about healers having no decent weapon choices 15:29 i'm not srguing for any change at all. i'm just saying it's not for me 15:30 that part of it 15:30 trying to imagine a demogorgon melee where i might use do it 15:31 the unihorn would have to be buffed, which my healer's often is 15:31 i mean enchanted, sorry 15:38 <@Winsalot> Is magic lamp even worth rubbing? I'm kinda enjoying having apermanent light source rn 15:40 i hardly ever rub the first one 15:41 if i do it's either a dire emergency or when i'm about to enter the planes 15:42 also, the last two i rubbed did not grant a wish 15:43 <@Winsalot> Yeah, that's what I feel like 15:43 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 124941 points, T:31039, drowned in a moat by a Watcher in the Water 15:43 <@Winsalot> That DSM isn't even that good 15:43 i think my approach is pretty common 15:43 *a* Watcher in the Water? 15:44 apparently in xnh, you don\t get wishes from magic lamps 15:44 *don't 15:44 or so K2 claims 15:44 :P 15:44 I have definitely done it in wizmode. 15:45 he's 0 for 7, i'm 0 for 2, afaik elenmirie hasn't checked in 15:45 also despite max luck, i keep asking for 2 and getting 1 15:45 so i'm blaming aosdict 15:46 FIQ: were they like this to you when you launched fiqhack :P 15:46 i haven't found a magic lamp, prolly part of the nerf 15:46 <@luxidream> lol, why is DSM bad again 15:47 aosdict: where did the thiefstone idea come from? 15:48 ais originally 15:48 i just found oen 15:48 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Gol Ang Mal Law), 18901 points, T:3045, quit 15:48 though I fleshed out most of the details 15:48 so it's keyed to the spot and not the container right? 15:48 Yes. 15:48 Can't keep track of the container. 15:49 well going to the container would possibly be op 15:49 if i can move the container 15:49 Mhm. 15:49 you just "found" one by having it steal from you? :-) 15:50 oh hey 15:50 well i knew it was either flint or thiefstone and yes, i picked it up 15:50 aosdict: Not sure 15:50 i fonally got a lamp wish earlier last night 15:50 When I launched FIQHack, nobody played it 15:50 At all 15:50 *finally 15:50 ouch 15:50 \o/ I am exonerated!!! 15:50 so 1/8 15:50 It saw some play in junethack 2016 15:50 Once that was done, nobody played it 15:50 i think you made odds reversed for lamp wishes aosdict 15:50 I think it got like 5 games in total for the rest of 2016 15:51 Basically 15:51 Until jonadab's brogue post 15:51 *Nobody*, and I mean nobody, played FIQHack 15:51 outside Junethack 15:51 and now look 15:51 you're famous 15:51 and then Discord happened! 15:51 RLdiscord was a thing at that time 15:52 jonadab made his brogue post, gaining the attention of rumflump (i|am|shpingle for RLdiscord folks) who talked about it 15:52 tried out 4k and fiqhack 15:52 and told RLdiscord about its greatness 15:52 that's pretty much how FIQHack got popular 15:53 <@luxidream> shpingle also pitched for dyna too 15:53 <@luxidream> that didn't take off as much 😛 15:53 Yeah later on when he tried it out in June 15:53 I mean, dynahack isn't bad 15:53 I like it 15:53 But it's unnethack 15:53 with a saner UI 15:54 and the kind of things unnethack does isn't what I want in a variant 15:54 That's just me though 15:54 I can't speak for RLdiscord :P 15:54 or others 15:55 LarienTelrunya linked me a 4chan thread regarding roguelikes a while back 15:55 DynaHack is one of the most popular variants there 15:55 -!- Tariru_ has joined #hardfought 15:55 <@luxidream> I like un's new areas, and the fact that it's more conservative than something like dnethack helps me enjoy it more 15:57 <@luxidream> I feel better about it than when I first played it. maybe just more used to the nerfs by now 15:57 -!- Tariru has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:57 i really like unnethack 16:02 [hdf-us] [slex] ttc1401 (Sam Ang Mal Law), 466 points, T:782, killed by a monster (Liselotte's hugging boot) 16:02 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Red_kangaroo/YANIs/Monsters#Nymphs this is an interesting idea 16:03 I'm not sure what I'm being asked to weigh in on... one of two things, I think 16:03 1. unihorn healing wielded barehanded in xnethack: IMHO useless, I never have bare hands because footrices 16:03 elenmirie: have you ever gotten a wish via magic lamp in xnh 16:04 no it is not possible 16:04 you can only wish for non-magic items 16:04 ? 16:04 xnh not unnethack 16:04 glowing dragon scales being my favourite 16:04 lol 16:04 oh sorry 16:04 elenmirie: 16:04 my one successful wish was for a cloak of MR 16:04 wrong variant 16:04 lol 16:04 xnh. Yes 16:04 you can 16:04 too many variants 16:04 :P 16:05 it doesn't have the unh nerf to lamps 16:05 unless that's something new? 16:05 No. 16:05 But for the longest time K2 and hothraxxa were getting zero wishes out of an absurd number of blessed lamps 16:05 elenmirie: have you gotten wishes from magic lamps in xnh 16:05 this is what is being asked 16:05 but, of course it has the usual only 80% chance of a wish at all 16:05 aosdict: you made a change to wishing, albeit a small one (being able to wish for magic lamps) I would suggest looking at the code again making sure you didnt alter the chances of getting a wish from a blessed lamp 16:05 yes I have, definitely 16:06 elenmirie stole all our mojo! 16:06 K2: the code I touched has nothing to do with djinn odds. I showed you side by side comparisons of vanilla's and xnh's djinni_from_bottle(), which are identical. 16:06 * FIQ is wondering what aosdict would say if elenmirie claimed not to have gotten any wishes from the lamps despite trying 16:06 i call shenanigans 16:06 (djinni_from_bottle is called for magic lamps too) 16:07 I have never thought that wishing for a magic lamp is a problem. Because a blessed magic lamp gives 80% chance of a wish. You are trading 100% chance of a wish for 80% chance of a wish, unless all you want is a permanent light source. 16:07 it would have been funny to me, sorry 16:07 fake djinni_from_bottle() 16:07 because I genuinely believe you're innocent 16:07 just RNG is being a troll 16:07 INNOCENT! 16:07 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Variant_paranoia 16:07 (just like my cat) 16:07 perhaps it was just *really* bad luck 16:07 ok 16:07 I will play xnh 16:08 despite it being evil 3.6 16:08 or perhaps elenmirie is truly magical and she stole our mojo 16:08 and try to fail to get a wish from a magic lamp 16:08 * elenmirie cackles 16:08 elenmirie hits! elenmirie stole the blessed +7 Mjollnir. elenmirie tries to run away with your Mjollnir. 16:08 now there's an odd conduct 16:08 * elenmirie stokes up the cauldron 16:08 heh 16:08 To be fair, the very first game of xnh on hardfought ended with death to an angry djinni. 16:09 who on earth would make number_pad:1 default 16:09 that is a cruel change 16:09 Not me, I didn't touch that. 16:09 oh, btw. i have a question for those who know how elbereth-less conduct is tracked 16:09 CRUEL 16:09 how do you enable hitpointbar 16:09 is it just OPTIONS=hitpointbar 16:09 like in NAO 16:09 K2: regarding E-less: did you see my message about how the "number of times scared monster" conduct is tracked? I left a !tell and everything :) 16:10 i wrote the default rc cfg for all variants on the hdf server 16:10 s/tracked/problematic 16:10 yikes, no. 16:10 numpad 1 bicthes 16:10 bitches even 16:10 i was standing on the e-word that is enscribed under the chest at the castle. i hit a monster and was accused of being a hypoctire. i assume that would have broken elbereth-less? 16:10 Error: Window type curses not recognized. The only choice is: tty. 16:10 you cannot avoid scaring monsters in several situations 16:10 pfffff 16:10 aosdict I did ;) 16:10 such as, unidentified scare monster in shop 16:10 yes 16:10 i anxiously await what you come up with 16:10 I don't understand what is wrong with just adding E conduct 16:10 like everyone else 16:11 the two guaranteed ones in soko and the castle 16:11 fiq: was that yes for me? 16:11 FIQ: I agree 16:11 FIQ: aosdict wants to be different, which I applaud 16:11 however 16:11 K2: This is different just to be different 16:11 E word conduct! 16:11 IMO 16:11 Which is dumb 16:11 but that difference is not helpful :) 16:11 you dont know that FIQ 16:11 Engraving Elbereth should be the conduct 16:12 K2: Oh I'm sure there is a reason 16:12 But I don't know it 16:12 did aosdict say say he's doing it that way just to be different? 16:12 unless you get rid of the pre-engraved ones 16:12 I'm just asking aosdict what it is 16:12 i'm still confused 16:12 i suggested having two diff conducts, one for E word another for using ?oSM 16:12 I'm always confused 16:12 elenmirie: There is valid reason to distinguish from what variants do now 16:12 what about scaring things by other means? 16:13 Some variants with E tracking allows you to avoid it by splitting up the E 16:13 This is dumb 16:13 horn, bugle, drum 16:13 camera 16:13 Also I think no variant excludes random E by polywands 16:13 being ch 3 16:13 Which it should 16:13 FIQ: I agree, I didn't even know that 16:13 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:13 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 16:13 really ch 3 should scare everybody 16:13 hothraxxa: haha 16:13 i'm scared right now 16:14 hothraxxa: yes! 16:14 FIQ: [backscroll] hey if you want to implement 3.6.1-compatible curses interface, I'll be very happy :-) 16:14 aosdict: yeah I know I'm kinda self-deprecating myself there :P 16:14 I mean, technically I'm not the curses dev... 16:14 i'm not bugging Tangles on purpose 16:14 * elenmirie points at FIQ and curses 16:15 he's busy until June I think he said 16:15 FIQ: The valid reason, not being different just to be different, is that abusing E-like effects is the real "conduct". 16:15 ok enough CoQ for now for me for a while I think 16:15 aosdict: The reason E tracking in particular is done is because E in 3.4.3 is ridiculously overpowered 16:15 yes, true 16:15 Nobody is wincing at the strength of the cause fear spell 16:15 but in 361, not so much 16:16 E is still abuseable in 3.6.1 16:16 write E 16:16 put on conflict 16:16 that's not really abuse 16:16 it is 16:16 you can't fight on it 16:16 I think not 16:16 you make yourself invulnerable 16:16 and let the problem fix itself 16:16 pretty much 16:16 not any more than ?oSM 16:16 SM is consumable 16:16 E is infinite 16:17 the difference is, you dont start with a ?oSM 16:17 K2: separate conducts would basically mean that you have to duplicate the onscary() function, one for checking where monsters want to move (which obviously shouldn't break the conduct), and a conduct-breaking version. 16:17 SM is infinite given holy water 16:17 also 16:17 This infinite blindness bug I've been hit with is not, in fact, a slashemextended bug, but is present in 3.6.0 16:17 E word a new player can use at turn 1 16:17 Tariru_: huh 16:17 And I can actually reliably reproduce it. 16:17 a new player does not start with conflict 16:17 ok, how to reproduce? 16:17 Splat yourself with a cream pie, then drink a potion of full healing, then apply a towel. 16:18 I was just going to to do that... 16:18 ok that is not going to reproduce in FIQHack due to trinsic rewrite 16:18 lol 16:18 Drinking the full healing potion sets your blindness counter to 0, but doesn't touch the creampie variable. 16:18 but it might reproduce everywhere else 16:18 they did that to me at a spa once 16:18 heh 16:18 my kinda spa! 16:18 So when you apply the towel, it sets blindness to blindness - creampie, without going through any of the safe functions., 16:18 Tariru_: in xnh the full healing cures your creampie-ness, which is weird. 16:18 (which is effectively 3.6.1) 16:18 oh yeah 16:18 I remember seeing a commit about that 16:19 creampie-ness. The world needs to know about that word. 16:19 Ah, so this is already fixed in 3.6.1? 16:19 I didn't investigate, but something about cream pies and blindness 16:19 yeah 16:19 it is 16:19 elenmirie: *cough*pr0n*cough* 16:19 <@Winsalot> can I sacrifice tinned corpses? 16:19 no 16:19 !tell LarienTelrunya the cream pie bug is apparently a 3.4.3 bug it seems 16:19 Will do, FIQ! 16:20 it must be at least in 3.3.1 for it to appear in slex 16:20 @Winsalot no 16:20 hothraxxa: I was thinking of confectionary, what gutter were you in? 16:20 aosdict: Pretty sure SLASH'EM as it is now is based on 3.4.3 16:20 Either that, or it has all of 3.4.3 merged into it 16:20 !tell LarienTelrunya see commit 13c40d85 in 3.6.1 that fixed this 16:20 Will do, aosdict! 16:20 * hothraxxa is innocent! 16:20 i was out of town that week 16:22 why is there like 10 monsters in this one room 16:22 aw crap asmodeus invited dispater along 16:23 its a party 16:23 you can use _x. for pseudo-autoexplore in 3.6.1 16:24 now if only that worked with Ctrl-A 16:25 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Asmodeus, on T:31522 16:25 aosdict: I've got some comments on my healer game. But I'll wait until I finish it, one way or t'other 16:26 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Dispater, on T:31527 16:26 oh god I forgot how horrible NetHack was to play without working alt 16:26 yay hothraxxa! 16:26 bugger invited about 15 friends over 16:28 aosdict: So apparently traveling to your own location takes time 16:28 Is that intended? 16:30 Why is there a ton of monsters when I descend 16:30 urgh 16:31 [hdf-us] [dyn] I Wanna Be The Tariru (Luxidream) (Wiz Gno Fem Neu), 600282 points, T:42234, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/L/Luxidream/dynahack/dumplog/2018-03-31%2016_30_58%2C%20I%20Wanna%20Be%20The%20Tariru-Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu%2C%20ascended.txt 16:31 muscle memory for another game is carrying over 16:31 @Luxidream grats! 16:31 how was the game 16:31 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 16:31 . 16:31 LarienTelrunya: Message from Tariru at 2018-03-31 14:49 EDT: your patch is live, and I'm getting the "Fixing a bug that gave you a negative blindness counter..." message, but it doesn't fix the blindness. 16:31 LarienTelrunya: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-31 16:19 EDT: the cream pie bug is apparently a 3.4.3 bug it seems 16:31 LarienTelrunya: Message from aosdict at 2018-03-31 16:20 EDT: see commit 13c40d85 in 3.6.1 that fixed this 16:31 Luxidream, we all wanna be Tariru, hah! 16:32 Tariru_: wtf @ the bugfix not fixing the bug... I'll have to look at that commit 16:32 I think you'll need to set Blindness to 0 directly. 16:33 set it to 1 16:33 not 0 16:33 They way that the safe function masks breaks if the variable is already at a negative number, and doesn't fix it. 16:33 or you will mess up vision 16:33 not permanently, but still 16:35 <@luxidream> elenmirie: it was an I Wanna Be The Guy reference 😛 16:35 <@luxidream> game was alright. dyna is still fun 16:36 !tell K2 okay, pushed another fix to the slex-2.1.7 branch, this time it'll hopefully really fix it! *crosses fingers* 16:36 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 16:36 ok 16:36 K2: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2018-03-31 16:36 EDT: okay, pushed another fix to the slex-2.1.7 branch, this time it'll hopefully really fix it! *crosses fingers* 16:36 * elenmirie is old and doesn't get the reference :D 16:37 which is just fine 16:37 FIQ: Probably not intended, you should report it. 16:37 and in the meantime I'll see if I can locally reproduce that blindness error 16:37 Slash'EM Extended updated (us and eu) 16:37 yep, works, I got -14 turns of blindness and it continues going into the negatives 16:38 thanks K2! Tariru_: can you check whether the bug persists? 16:38 Yes, it's fixed now! 16:38 Christ, nethack is still new to me, and I'm not talking 3.4.3! 16:38 Thanks. 16:38 :) 16:39 sorry again, and many thanks for figuring out how it's caused, I'd never have guessed that it's a vanilla bug 16:39 It's actually still present in 3.6.0, it only got fixed in the latest. 16:39 Must have been there for a very long time. 16:41 monkeytown 16:41 better than orctown 16:42 aosdict: it's probably good to allow hostiles to also displace peacefuls so you can't use them as cover 16:46 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Lea, on T:80113 16:47 hm 16:47 no menucolors 16:47 let's fix that 16:48 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 16:49 -!- Blastin_ has joined #hardfought 16:50 -!- Blastin_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50 -!- Blastin_in has joined #hardfought 16:51 aosdict: Error: Unknown config statement. 16:51 ...? 16:51 I pasted a dnh config 16:51 Normally I can do this 16:51 Then it lists everything that is wrong 16:51 So I can fix it 16:52 3.6.x is completely unhelpful here 16:52 FIQ use mine or elenmirie or hothraxxa cfg if you need an example for xnh 16:52 K2: But I want my config, I just don't know what options doesn't exist in xnh 16:52 i copied aosdict and nodified it a bit 16:53 It is very unhelpful in telling me what is wrong 16:53 bah i cnat' type 16:53 In fact it's entirely useless on doing that 16:53 start with a 3.6.1 config, fix 2-4 error messages, and you're good to go 16:53 So basically I need to create a new config from scratch 16:53 Because 3.6.1 has awful errors 16:53 Great 16:53 Just what I wanted to do before playing 16:53 variant paranoia 16:54 This isn't even the fault of xnh 16:54 It's 3.6.0, or 3.6.1, which has a horrible regression in its config errors 16:55 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 16:56 K2: Actually it looks like this is on you 16:57 xnh (and possible 3.6.1) is being compiled with CONFIG_ERROR_SECURE 16:58 Making config errors worthless 16:59 i dont even know what that switch is 16:59 never heard of it before 16:59 K2: It makes configuration errors refuse to print line number and file, and only show a single error 16:59 or maybe you just suck at 3.x configs 16:59 Which is exactly what is happening here 16:59 * FIQ zaps K2 with a wand of fire 17:00 Please make the game give proper config errors 17:00 afk 17:00 god forbid its anyone but your fault FIQ ;) 17:01 anways, not aware of CONFIG_ERROR_SECURE 17:01 *anyways 17:01 as i said, use my cfg for a start, work from there. i get no errors 17:04 omg it seems the wierdos from 4chan think Tariru is me 17:04 god those guys are so stupid 17:10 K2: the linux makefile contains -DCONFIG_ERROR_SECURE=FALSE, so if it's TRUE on hdf, you must have changed something 17:16 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 17:17 ok so 17:17 2 things 17:17 1: I resorted to configuring xnethack locally instead 17:18 2: I double-checked locally, built without CONFIG_ERROR_SECURE. It gives far better errors 17:18 Here is one example: 17:18 AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*fire horn*" 17:18 * Line 308: regex error in AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION: Invalid preceding regular expression. 17:19 This is a much better error message than "Error: Unknown config statement." 17:19 Which is completely worthless 17:19 Please fix your build too, so you don't hurt others who can't build locally 17:20 This is the exact error that the ^ referred to, for reference 17:20 MONSTERCOLOR=floating eye:orange # ! CLR_BLUE 17:20 * Line 11: Unknown config statement. 17:20 See? Much better 17:20 you're addressing K2, right? 17:20 Yes 17:20 K2 blamed me for his setup 17:21 So I ended up doing stuff locally instead and then prove to him outright that it was on him 17:21 since he apparently didn't believe me 17:23 awww 17:23 yes i'll address 17:24 but bear in mind, i didnt know that setting even existed 17:24 And instead of double-checking you just said I sucked at configuring stuff 17:24 FIQ: was it in include/config.h or in sysconf? 17:24 Depends. How do you compile? 17:24 FIQ you gotta learn how to tell when ppl are just messing with you 17:25 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Juiblex, on T:33042 17:25 otherwise i will have to refer to you as Sheldon from here on out 17:25 Actually it looks like, as long as no default setting for CONFIG_ERROR_SECURE, it is automatically set to TRUE 17:25 So just set it to FALSE 17:25 ok. where? 17:25 (This is a bit unintuitive given how C macros are usually set up, but...) 17:25 in which file? 17:25 look at include/config.h 17:26 either that, or if you have a special makefile for hardfought 17:26 just add -DCONFIG_ERROR_SECURE=FALSE 17:26 to CFLAGS 17:27 ok thx 17:27 ais523: This is a *very* dubious default 17:27 It basically makes anyone not on linux have awful error messages 17:27 for config errors 17:27 Basically 17:27 with the setting on 17:27 wait, is hdf not on linux? 17:27 it will 1: not give the relevant line, 2: not give line number 17:28 aosdict: I assume so, I figured K2 had a special makefile 17:28 given that the setting is enabled for some reason 17:28 (it is disabled in my own 3.6.1 install, which is also on linux...) 17:28 ais523: oh and it will immediately stop after reporting a single error, meaning if you have several, you have to fix them one each 17:29 FIQ: is this vanilla we're talking about? 17:29 Yes 17:29 ISTR there was some sort of security exploit with it set to false but can't remember the details 17:29 and having an insecure program is arguably even worse than having an unusable program, as it could be used to attack computers with NetHack installed even if the user doesn't use it 17:29 I do have ideas for a better fix but am unlikely to get round to implementing them 17:29 as it'd require a more or less total rewrite of all the file-handling code 17:29 ais523: I fail to see how a problematic rc file can lead to security issues 17:30 FIQ: you tell NetHack that, say, /etc/shadow is the RC file 17:30 There might be sysconf-related issues 17:30 I can see that 17:30 then use the error message to read its contents 17:30 Ahh 17:30 I see 17:30 But why would anyone run nethack as root? 17:30 That's their problem really... 17:30 it was the default configuration on Gentoo for a while 17:31 it's a game 17:31 they changed their mind after getting reports about how stupid it was to install NetHack suid root 17:31 running it as root is idiotic 17:31 well, yes 17:31 that doesn't change the fact that people have done it in the past, and probably still do it now 17:31 Yeah, if that's a security exploit, then no program should be allowed to read files ever. 17:31 even in server context 17:31 aosdict: NetHack's a set*id program 17:31 ais523: yes, but NetHack shouldn't try to cave into people doing stupid things 17:31 besides perhaps warn "this is a terrible idea" 17:31 normally setgid games 17:32 that means it's held to a higher standard for file reading 17:32 however, I'm pretty sure the correct fix is to drop perms before reading the config file, as opposed to reading only files that look like a NetHack RC file 17:33 ais523: did you see the error stuff on mac for aimake, and is there anything I can do to help? 17:34 For nh4 and fiqhack (though fiqhack I ended up compiling with the makefile). 17:34 tubs: yes, and I already knew about it 17:34 the problem is that Mac links via the .tbd files nowadays 17:34 Ah ok :) 17:34 so the correct fix would, I think, be to add a .tbd parser to aimake 17:34 it's just that I have so many other things to do that any individual task tends to get done quite lowly 17:34 *slowl 17:34 *slowly 17:34 You don't really need to parse, it's more an awk /install-path/ { print $2 } 17:34 I need to find the dependencies 17:34 ais523: have you heard of overengineering 17:35 FIQ: this is actually a case of underengineering 17:35 it's obviously necessary to find the dependencies for user libraries 17:35 xNetHack updated (us and eu) 17:35 and on every other platform, finding the dependencies of system libraries works exactly the same way 17:35 so I didn't need to write any special cases or code or the like for it 17:35 FIQ: try your cfg on hdf with a mistake in the cfg 17:36 i will prob need to do the same for 3.6.1 dev 17:36 on Mac this breaks because Apple keep repeatedly making their toolchain more complex for no good reason 17:36 K2: works, thanks 17:36 np 17:36 this also applies to 3.6.1 btw 17:36 ais523: There is a pretty good reason :) 17:36 ok family here, bbl 17:36 so I'm going to need to add some sort of special case to deal with it 17:36 tubs: There is? 17:36 It's so you can target a bunch of different platforms and link against their standard libraries without having the entire set of shared libs on your build system. 17:36 like 10 years ago building software on Mac was almost as easy as building it on Linux 17:37 The android SDK "fix" is way way worse, they ship stub .so libraries, but sometimes they get out of date and you get really weird messages. 17:37 It's more for iOS than Mac people tbh. 17:37 couldn't they just make the standard tools like nm and ldd work with the .tbd files? 17:37 rather than forcing people to reimplement them? 17:37 Yeah that would help a lot. 17:37 ais523: maybe there is a config option to make them? 17:38 I tried to find some FIQ, btu I couldn't. :( 17:38 but* 17:38 why would anyone break standard tools? 17:38 soudns stupid 17:38 *sounds 17:38 Apple really only uses xcode, so they are already not "standard". 17:38 are they trying to EEE 17:38 I think writing something that was nm-cli compatible but read tld files wouldn't be too awful. 17:39 FIQ that's mean, no we aren't :( 17:39 right, from what I could tell last time I tested this, the format was very simple 17:39 so it'd be easy enough to write a small Perl function to test it 17:39 I just haven't got around to it and don't have access to a Mac to do it anyway 17:39 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Weitzer, on T:81063 17:39 tubs: well, breaking standard tools in such ways seems rather EEE to me... embrace standard tools, then break them with weird things 17:40 ais523: If you want help testing on mac just poke me. 17:40 FIQ: true, but there are reasons, and trying to make other people move "forwards (relative)" is waaay more difficult. 17:41 FIQ: Mac Classic was utterly bizarre from a developer tools point of view 17:41 so it makes sense that they'd move onto a Unix codebase that had existing tools that were known to work 17:43 heh, I responded to a Reddit post that was made a week ago or so, the person replied within a minute 17:43 https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/7i7uhz/announcement_fiqhack_430_released/dwljipt/?context=3&st=jffwm6m3&sh=072883bf 17:45 Reddit has notifications 17:45 oh true 17:45 FIQ: Apple is not in a sufficiently dominant position to EEE. Even on mobile, let alone on the desktop. 17:45 jonadab: hence "trying to EEE" 17:45 not doing a good job at it, if they were :-) 17:46 I think it's more that they have their own little bubble they inhabit, and they don't really care if they disrupt cross-platform stuff. 17:47 NetHack4 isn't in the Apple store, so it doesn't _matter_ to Apple. 17:48 Also, I'm not entirely sure they still care about the desktop. 17:48 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:57984 17:49 They do still sell laptops, but they're the really tiny ones mostly, halfway to being tablets-with-keyboards. 17:50 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54 -!- Blastin_in has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 17:58 someone deacronymify EEE for me 17:59 <@Winsalot> Is it possible to tame demon that is already peaceful? 18:01 -!- elenmirie has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:01 -!- elenmirie_ is now known as elenmirie 18:01 aosdict: embrace, extend, extinguish 18:01 it refers to a technique of writing things that are compatible with your competitor's technology, then modifying your own version to be incompatible once you've built up a user base 18:02 the idea is that if you're a large/popular enough company, everyone who was previously using the technology will end up using your version and driving your competitors out of business 18:02 I'm vaguely surprised that it works (if it does indeed work) 18:03 next time we update 3.6.1 dev, the way it reports cfg errors will be more verbose 18:03 weird that no one ever complained about it before 18:04 because nobody is as shitty at editing config files as me ;) 18:04 fact 18:04 :) 18:04 maybe its because everyone (myself included) thought that was just normal 18:04 ais523: I'm wondering if MS is trying this with WSL 18:05 my guess is no 18:05 they'd make it look more native if they were 18:05 the technique only works if you get a larger userbase than the original 18:05 and there are probably more Linux users than WSL users, and Microsoft aren't trying hard to change that 18:05 It's not so much that you make your own incompatible, as that you get all your users to use your version's proprietary extension features. 18:05 right 18:06 So that their stuff becomes incompatible with other implementations. 18:06 wasn't MS trying to do this with ActiveX 18:06 gcc would be a good example 18:06 gcc extensions, sure. 18:06 having managed to successfully EEE standard C 18:06 (although it probably wasn't intentional) 18:06 ais523: has it, though 18:06 I got the impression that it is really only used in strongly GNU-focused applications 18:06 GCC extensions, I mean 18:06 FIQ: most C compilers on Linux implement GNU C rather than standard c 18:06 gcc, clang, and icc all do, IIRC 18:07 and those are the three most popular 18:07 Well, there aren't really any notable proprietary C compilers for Linux, that I'm aware of. 18:07 gcc had no competition at all in that space until egcs. 18:08 jonadab: icc 18:08 is proprietary 18:08 The BSDs used to use their own cc, but I think some of them are shipping gcc or clang these days. 18:08 ais523: Ok, yes, icc. 18:08 I meant other than the ones you listed, really. 18:08 None of the other compilers ais523 listed is properitiar 18:09 y 18:09 18:09 True. 18:09 I guess --no-pedantic would make a better closing tag in this context :-D 18:09 Also, does icc actually get used on Linux, much? 18:10 I kind of got the impression it was mostly geared toward the proprietary unices. 18:10 Some of which almost still have a userbase, kind of. 18:10 ais523: Heh 18:12 YASI (from Qud): float stone, a stone with negative weight. Usages are obvious 18:12 3.4.3 basically has that 18:12 as a consequence of a bug, but still 18:12 Antigold doesn't count :P 18:12 since it's a bug 18:13 Also, antigold is deeply OP, because you can carry a huge (negative) quantity of it in one slot, since it stacks. 18:13 The float stone should be a non-stacking item, so you have to carry N of them if you want N times the negative weight. 18:13 float stones might work well with 21slot 18:13 And if you want enough to fly, you should have to carry basically your whole inventory full of them. 18:14 interestingly, there's an item in Pokémon with the same name and same effect 18:14 Not sure I agree because it encourages tedium if you find enough 18:14 except that it isn't very useful because weight is hardly relevant in Pokémon 18:14 ais523: That's where I got the name from :P 18:14 The float stone in Pokémon is basically useless though 18:15 (In Qud it's called a "small sphere of negative weight") 18:16 ais523: [backscroll] Oh, I was aware of the concept but not the acronym. 18:16 weight in Pokémon is weird 18:16 gen 5 added a whole load of individual mechanics that influence weight and/or depend on weight 18:16 but the things that depend on weight are sufficiently rare that influencing weight doesn't have a noticeable effect 18:17 Low Kick is the only one that comes to mind for me in 3gen 18:17 you don't want to waste a whole item slot just to marginally reduce the damage you take from Grass Knot 18:17 FIQ: Low Kick and Grass Knot are both competitively viable (or used to be, last time I checked) 18:17 Grass Knot is 4gen 18:18 I think 3gen only has Low Kick battle-wise that depends on weight, but not sure 18:18 4gen added Grass Knot, either 4 or 5gen added Light/Heavy Metal 18:18 and the Float Stone 18:20 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:22 FIQ: that was gen 5 I think 18:23 FIQ: float stone could be a full fledged YANI I think 18:23 if the balancing factor is that a) they're rare and b) cost an inventory slot 18:23 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed the invisible Baalzebub, on T:33748 18:24 I think costing an inventory slot per stone is the important balancing factor. 18:24 an inventory slot isn't a real cost when you have 52 of them 18:24 especially with containers existing 18:24 Oh, right, containers, hmm. 18:24 That's a good point. 18:25 Would it work by directly reducing your inventory weight, and levitate you if it brought your weight plus inventory weight below 0? 18:25 It should probably not work in containers. 18:25 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 18:25 Although NetHack has a surprisingly large number of things that it's specifically beneficial to carry _in the open_, as opposed to in a container. 18:25 And yeah, I would say don't let them be put into containers. 18:26 Make up some flavor excuse why they float back out. 18:26 And end up hanging in the air nearby. 18:26 I'd just make float stones rare 18:26 Easier 18:27 Yeah, that should be the way to go, unless farming for them becomes a serious problem. 18:29 jonadab: the point is that you can just put a different item in the container to free up the slot 18:29 52 slots is an insane value 18:29 in terms of how much you need 18:29 I ascended an approximate 21slot game (wasn't keeping perfect tabs on inventory size 100% of the time but was trying to avoid using more slots than that) 18:30 it didn't really feel any different from a standard game of NetHack 18:31 hm 18:33 aosdict: Tnu8bfg~{y#`cj1wni8Pns`}e<&,Lyls,o~vjhke#dyl1o}1jr 8rqcx-$ 18:34 there's a sandestin here. maybe it's one of his curses 18:34 that's too coherent to be keyboard mashing but I don't understand it 18:36 i don't see any consequences of it 18:36 the sandestin is dead 18:36 <@luxidream> float stone is amazing in the pokemon TCG 18:36 <@luxidream> reduces retreat cost to zero 18:37 <@luxidream> pretty important staple 18:37 I assume it's not discarded when used? 18:37 there's a chronic masticator somewhere about 18:40 <@luxidream> no, though there are cards that let your opponent discard it 18:41 <@luxidream> funny, there are some items that are pretty terrible in the games that are good in the card game 18:45 Probably the reverse too 18:56 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Ran Elf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed greased fireproof historic lit spellbook of identify", on T:58667 18:59 <@luxidream> lit 👌 19:00 hothraxxa: are you saying that's a bugged out message? 19:00 yes 19:01 what exactly were you doing 19:01 moving. there was a sandestin there, might have something to do with it 19:02 uh well with no more context I don't really have a clue what's going on 19:02 what can i tell ya 19:02 watch the ttyrec? 19:02 there was a *dead* sandestin there? 19:02 which turn? 19:02 no i deaded it 19:03 don't know which thurn. in the 34000s i think 19:03 ugh lovely, I don't know how to make ttyplay advance to a certain starting point 19:03 hang on i can get you the exact turn 19:05 not sure it'll be worth it if I have to hold down space or something waiting for the game to advance to that point 19:10 turn 33937 19:11 i use jettyplay, which can skip to a given frame 19:12 maybe G works in ttyplay 19:17 K2: you around? 19:20 @mtf discord PM 19:20 <@mtf> Hmm? 19:22 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:35268 19:22 ttyplay is incredibly primitive 19:22 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:35270 19:22 It's enough for my purposes 19:22 but yeah, if you need better, jettyplay works well 19:23 where do I get jettyplay? 19:23 * aosdict checks the AUR 19:23 it's written by some nerd named alex smith 19:23 yeah, never heard of him 19:24 duckduckgo isn't coming up with much 19:24 wish he'd show up 19:24 odd that the about doesn't tell you where to get it 19:24 i think i found it through a link off nao 19:25 http://nethack4.org/projects/jettyplay/ 19:25 -!- Crawldragon has joined #hardfought 19:26 2018-03-31 19:22 look like the correct ttyrec? 19:26 or is it the other one from today? 19:27 no it's the other one 19:27 AUR not having jettyplay surprises me 19:28 that should probably be addresses 19:28 *addressed 19:28 that's the right one 19:28 hothraxxa: that one starts after turn 35k 19:28 well then it's the previous one i guess 19:30 well I found the frame 19:31 but I have no idea what caused that 19:33 I mean, there shouldn't just be a random pline that spits out a %s string, either. 19:33 since i did nothing to cause a message i assumed it was a result of the sandestin 19:33 Hmm... I suppose it could be a malediction? 19:34 Maledictions a) come from a file b) get printed without context 19:34 it said nasty things about my mom. i had to kill it 19:35 it looks kind-of like the encrypted version of a rumor 19:37 * aosdict greps for "Tnu8bfg" 19:37 [hdf-us] [nd] Qwesti (Tou Hum Mal Neu) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:2024 19:39 aosdict: you'll want to grep in the compiled nhdat file, not in the source 19:40 just did a grep -ar from the base directory, didn't find anything, that should have covered nhdat 19:48 -!- Crawldragon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49 -!- Crawldragon has joined #hardfought 19:50 -!- hpardis has joined #hardfought 20:00 !tell K2 pushed a fix 20:00 Will do, FIQ! 20:05 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) averted death, on T:59188 20:06 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:68625 20:06 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:68627 20:09 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) performed the invocation, on T:68861 20:14 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 1798 points, T:1844, killed by a bugbear 20:17 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 20:19 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:69236 20:22 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the high priest of Moloch, on T:69268 20:22 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:69270 20:24 wooo go bouquet_ 20:24 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-31 20:00 EDT: pushed a fix 20:25 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:69572 20:26 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 20:26 !who 20:26 FIQ: [hdf-us] ttc1401 [slex] Grasshopper [nd] Kame [dnh] hothraxxa [xnh] bouquet [xnh] 20:26 FIQ: [hdf-eu] No current players 20:28 !whereis Grasshopper 20:28 aosdict: [hdf-us] Grasshopper [nd]: No details available 20:28 oh right 20:28 -!- Tariru_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:28 -!- Tariru has joined #hardfought 20:31 T:1 Hello K2, welcome to FIQHack! You are a neutral male human Monk. │ 20:31 │ You are in a mostly safe place, don't worry. 20:31 is easy mode now default? 20:31 That might have been by accident 20:33 mode says normal in settings fwiw 20:33 Pushed a fix 20:33 k 20:33 Sorry about that 20:34 no worries 20:34 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 20:35 so on a public server, players can choose easy mode correct? 20:35 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed Bael, on T:61534 20:35 yes 20:35 don't worry, game is nonscoring for now 20:35 is there any sort of flag in the xlogfile that shows the game was in whatever mode? 20:35 might change that later 20:36 It's atm just flagged as explore 20:36 just asking because of junethack 20:36 To prevent Mandevil from hunting me with a pitchfork 20:36 gotcha 20:36 about having to add new special cases 20:36 thats cool though 20:37 easy mode for new players, explore the game etc 20:37 "This was done in order to target the big group of players who simply can't do well in normal circumstances." 20:37 Mhm 20:37 this uhh sounds a bit arrogant 20:37 Sorry, I am a bit tired 20:37 Will fix 20:37 well 20:38 there's the swiss 20:38 then everyone else 20:38 duh :P 20:38 hah 20:39 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Lot No. 249, on T:82405 20:39 Tariru: is that supposed to be a lotto ticket 20:39 I have no idea. 20:39 eh 20:39 it's slex 20:39 Didn't seem to be anything special about it. 20:40 Sounds like an item in an auction to me. 20:40 Tariru: have you had any trouble with slex? 20:41 like 20:41 difficulty-wise 20:41 There's been a few times when I've been surrounded by tough monsters. 20:41 But I've generally had plenty of consumables to keep me going through them. 20:42 ah 20:42 I think being a rogue makes it a bit easy, since they do great in terms of melee, ranged weapons, and spellcasting in SLEX. 20:42 A pure melee character would end up in a lot more tough situations. 20:43 Whereas in vanilla, if you're a barb or whatever you can pretty much go through the whole game without caring about spells or ranged weapons. 20:43 -!- tubs has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:43 Mhm 20:43 When did you start playing this game? 20:43 Just trying to get a picture of how long it takes to win 20:43 with the resized dungeon 20:44 I'm not really sure. 20:44 Been a couple of weeks maybe? 20:44 I see 20:44 Pretty longg ame 20:44 *long game 20:44 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 2263 points, T:3036, killed by an Uruk-hai 20:45 Yep. Although I've only really put time in at the weekends. 20:45 Not sure if the time gets tracked automatically like 3.4.3 does. 20:46 Don't think so, no 20:46 That's probably a NAO only thing actually. 20:46 also that's NAO, not 3.4.3 20:48 FIQ: YASI: a game mode that increases the upper bound of all rn2() calls by some number. 20:49 hmm 20:49 I think that'd break the game horribly 20:49 and I don't mean balance-wise 20:49 yep 20:50 in several places, the game assumes it can use rn2 values for arrays and such 20:50 it'd be like slex' segfaulter role I think 20:54 <@mtf> FIQ: ... easy mode eh? haha 20:55 @mtf Seems like some could find it useful 20:55 [hdf-us] [fh] MTF (mtf) (Hea Gno Fem Neu), 22533 points, T:972, killed by a homunculus, while sleeping 20:55 <@mtf> why is it still so hard T.T 20:56 <@mtf> 😛 20:56 heh 20:57 FIQ: You should've announced easy mode tomorrow. 20:57 Why? 20:57 I finished it now 20:57 !tell K2 minor bug fix 20:57 Will do, FIQ! 20:58 @mtf Easy mode should be notably easier. It adjusts damage rolls a bit 20:58 Not "you can't die" much, but yeah 20:59 <@mtf> hehe I was noticing that that homunculus didn't hit hard at all 20:59 <@mtf> so I let him hit me a bunch to test a bit 20:59 <@mtf> that's how I died 20:59 ah 20:59 Yeah it might be too easy 20:59 atm 20:59 Hmm 20:59 <@mtf> I was thinking that it like lowered dmg received more and more as your health lowered 21:00 I wanted to announce Brass cleanup tomorrow, but it ain't ready. 21:01 I fell behind schedule. 21:01 It's basically what it does 21:01 I think I am being a bit too generous atm though 21:01 What does it do? Give you 10 extra points of defense and start you with an amulet of life saving? 21:01 Tone down monster difficulty? 21:01 [hdf-us] [fh] FIQ (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 0 points, T:11, killed by a falling object, in explore mode 21:01 hmm 21:03 Ah, nvm, read it in backscroll now. 21:03 !tell K2 pushed a fix, easymode games are now nonscoring 21:03 Will do, FIQ! 21:04 <@mtf> should just make them 50% points FIQ 😛 21:04 they need to be, at least before I figure out how to handle them properly 21:05 @mtf I think even when I do get things right, they'll be their own mode 21:05 <@mtf> gotcha 21:05 that way, things don't need to rely on score to figure out things like achievements, etc 21:05 (see: Junethack) 21:05 -!- greqrg has quit [Quit: Disconnected] 21:06 having to add a "if score<200k; don't award stuff" if you don't want to award trophies in easymode would be dumb 21:06 <@mtf> right 21:11 !pom 21:11 FIQ: The moon is full for 3 more days. 21:16 what is NH4/FIQHack minscore, anyway? 21:16 you're inevitably going to get points for explored depth 21:16 are the others avoidable? 21:18 does amnesia still reduce discovery score? 21:18 you can obviously score 0 on both gold and valuables 21:19 I think you can theoretically score 0 on amount of kills 21:19 that's a pain because IIRC pet kills count 21:19 (but this is TAS-level demanding) 21:19 but it should be theoretically possible 21:19 yes 21:19 ADOM actually had something similar in old versions 21:20 amnesia does reduce discovery score I think 21:20 to be a Paragon of Order, you had to avoid *any* lawful creature dying 21:20 not just the ones you kill yourself 21:20 in later versions, this was changed, thankfully 21:20 that sounds very ADOM 21:20 (and in ADOM, lawful creatures are rare...) 21:21 not ultra-rare, but the least common alignment 21:21 ais523: OK so you need to clear your discoveries and ascend within 2k turns and not allow any creature to die 21:21 for minscore I think 21:22 oh right I forgot about that 21:22 turncount decreases score 21:22 but in a weird way 21:22 it can go negative 21:22 there's a cap on how far minus it can go 21:32 [hdf-us] [slex] Tariru (Rog Ang Fem Cha) killed Stefan, on T:82954 21:38 [hdf-us] [fh] EasyHack (mtf) (Sam Hum Mal Law), 23004 points, T:738, killed by a dwarf 21:40 ugh, I've somehow completely forgotten the codepage number for IBMgraphics 21:40 can someone remind me? 21:40 oh, 437 21:40 I guess I have to ask someone to be able to remember :-D 21:42 437 yeah 21:42 CP437 21:47 jonadab: I feel like despite the tradition the negatives of making nethack-related announcements on April 1 make it not worth it. 21:48 April 1 is the typical day for announcing large projects 21:48 because a) it makes the fake announcements more believable, b) if something goes wrong you have the perfect excuse to walk it back 21:49 yeah but people hearing about it for the first time might disregard and forget about it 21:49 Imagine if jonadab had actually intended Brogue Fourq to be a real thing. 21:49 not people who are used to the general April 1 festivities 21:50 it's normally possible to tell, anyway 21:50 there were several clues that Fourq wasn't real 21:50 aosdict: If I'd intended a real thing, the announcement would've been less ridiculous, and would have included a git repository address. 21:51 the "license mismatch makes this hard to release" excuse is a pretty plausible one, though 21:51 And yes, the announcement was designed so that you couldn't possibly read all the way through it and still think it was real. 21:51 exactly that happened with PRIME 21:51 jonadab: I was suspecting well before the obvious clues at the end 21:51 Right, I tried to order things so it got more obvious as it went. 21:52 the first paragraph even contains an acknowledgement that the date is April 1 :-) 21:52 Sure. 21:52 https://bilious.alt.org/rgrn/?134702,134703,134706,134707,134709,134710,134712,134715 for people who haven't seen it 21:53 "So anyway, once I started adding features from NetHack, I ended up adding pretty much almost every feature NetHack has" is IMO a giveaway 21:53 I think my favorite thing in that whole writeup, is dropping "z- zerg" into the mlet list with _absolutely no other mention of it anywhere_. 21:53 ais523: It should be, if you know anything about NetHack, yeah. 21:54 because writing that paragraph as you did and meaning it seriously would require you to be incredibly naive, and I know you aren't 21:54 it would - yeah what ais523 said 21:54 Or an incredible level of arrogance. 21:54 But yeah. 21:55 it's possible to reimplement "all" of NetHack's features in two years if you do what Pathos does and completely miss the point behind them 21:55 Those quotation marks are carrying a lot of freight. 21:57 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 2838 points, T:3954, killed by a human zombie 21:58 I think the _most_ believable part of the whole thing, was that I said repeatedly that I hadn't managed to get the options UI working yet. 21:58 Which was holding back several other features. 21:59 I think you could easily reimplement all of NetHack's features in two years, perhaps even one, if you were working on it full-time. 21:59 Someone might be able to do that; I am not that someone. 21:59 jonadab: didn't you steal that excuse for me? 21:59 from me 21:59 it's the reason I didn't merge channelization into NH4 for ages 21:59 ais523: Yeah, but it's believable anyway. 21:59 in the end I just merged it uncustomizably 22:00 -!- Tariru has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:00 Granted, if you were only given a list of the features and not allowed to look at the source it might be harder. 22:00 I think channelization is worth having even without customizability. 22:00 aosdict: That'd be completely impossible. 22:01 Reminds me of that one guy a couple months ago, who said "do you have some sort of an overarching document that lists all the features in the game, I'm thinking of reimplementing it in another language". Remember him? 22:01 Even NetHackWiki level knowledge isn't probably enough to unambiguously clarify what needs to happen in all cases. A feature list *certainly* is not. 22:01 aosdict: yes 22:01 ais523: I remember, yeah. 22:01 And we were like "the source code" 22:01 the thing is, the hard part of reimplementing NetHack is all the TDTTOEish cases 22:01 Right. 22:02 I think you'd only need a year or so to reimplement it if you didn't care about any of them 22:02 and just went with primary uses for everything 22:02 (that's pretty much what Pathos NetHack Codex does) 22:02 NetHack is mostly made out of, not so much special cases, though there are a lot of those, but really the bulk of it is _exceptions_ to the special cases. 22:02 there is always a but 22:02 with NetHack 22:03 Held together by #define macros and huge switch statements, plus chewing gum and bailing twine, smoke and mirrors. 22:03 and global variables 22:03 Yes, and globals. 22:03 ais523: yesterday, I discovered a global variable that completely screwed up a feature in FIQHack 22:03 there is a "travelling" global 22:03 it doesn't refer to travel, as I thought 22:03 but whether you are doing movement *at all* 22:04 I'm not surprised that it doesn't refer to travel, that's flags.mv == 8 22:04 this meant that if you stepped over items that you had stepped on 22:04 when you mentioned it, though, I wasn't sure what it actually did 22:04 it wouldn't say anything 22:04 I changed it to what I really meant, flags.occupation == occ_travel 22:04 Has anyone figured out yet what all those fh, fh+, FF, FF+ values for flags.mv actually mean? 22:05 the first 2 are fiqhack, fiqhack+ 22:05 and highlights me 22:05 the latter 2 refers to final fantasy 22:05 aosdict: I odn't know what they mean no 22:06 *don't 22:06 well I think some of it is referencing another game alongside Hack 22:06 called Quest iirc 22:06 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Orcus, on T:38990 22:06 but no idea what the shorthands themselves is referencing 22:06 Are they actually *used* in nethack? 22:07 Only half of them 22:07 Haven't looked too deeply at the move code. 22:07 some of them are, I don't think all of them are though 22:07 some of it is behind an ifdef QUEST 22:07 in very old versions 22:07 (1.x old) 22:08 <[Demo]> we need a variant that removes the quest 22:08 why? 22:08 <[Demo]> cause it would be funny 22:09 it's a pretty substantial feature 22:09 <[Demo]> exactly 22:09 and one of NetHack's more unique parts 22:09 !who 22:09 FIQ: [hdf-us] kek [nh4] aximili [slex] mtf [fh] Grasshopper [nd] redshirt [nd] Kame [dnh] ranlhach [un] krm26 [xnh] hothraxxa [xnh] 22:09 FIQ: [hdf-eu] No current players 22:09 <[Demo]> slex shits on nethack 22:09 <[Demo]> why cant we have another variant that does the same 22:09 <[Demo]> but instead of by adding so much shit u cant play by removing so much shit 22:09 oh 22:09 we have a variant like that 22:09 <[Demo]> fnethack? 22:09 it's called fnethack 22:10 <[Demo]> yeah but it doesnt remove the quest 22:10 <[Demo]> which means the author actually thought it was making meaningful changes 22:10 post an issue 22:10 <[Demo]> im convinced amy doesnt actually take slex as seriously as she pretends to 22:10 oh she does 22:10 otherwise she wouldn't write huge blog posts about it 22:11 [hdf-us] [slex] aximili (Drd Yok Mal Neu), 28 points, T:6, killed by an icy touch 22:12 <[Demo]> no her whole existence is a joke and she knows it deep deep down 22:12 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a black naga hatchling, on T:13249 22:12 <[Demo]> hey does anyone here use openbsd? 22:13 slex is the NetHack variant equivalent of fanfiction 22:13 [Demo]: Remove the quest, put the Bell of Opening on the bones pile on the Rogue level. Remove the Mines and Sokoban. Call the result "Coffeebreak NetHack". 22:13 <[Demo]> yes its fantastic 22:13 <[Demo]> i like that 22:13 <[Demo]> man there are just too many dumb ideas that would be funny out there to do them all 22:14 <[Demo]> thats the real deep sadness in life 22:14 <@mtf> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHack_brass what the hell is this 22:14 <[Demo]> brass is pretty cool 22:14 jonadab: that wouldn't be much faster 22:14 <[Demo]> some japanese guy i think 22:14 @mtf: an older variant 22:14 <[Demo]> brass is not very stable 22:14 @mtf Brass is a variant produced by the Japanese NetHack community. 22:14 <@mtf> I see 22:14 <@mtf> was it any good? 22:14 It has some interesting ideas. 22:14 <[Demo]> it had its cool features 22:14 <[Demo]> yeah 22:14 @mtf it does have some interesting features 22:14 monster steeds 22:14 <[Demo]> that was rad 22:14 I am trying to work on getting it stable enough to be server-worthy. 22:14 <[Demo]> yo fiq 22:14 <[Demo]> add that 22:14 <[Demo]> cause symmetrry 22:14 [Demo]: yes 22:15 <[Demo]> if i can ride a damn horse let rodney 22:15 brass succeeded where I haven't 22:15 so far 22:15 My working repo is here: https://github.com/tsadok/NetHackBrass.git 22:15 <[Demo]> at least fh is more stable 22:15 other interesting featurers in brass 22:15 <[Demo]> dead trees and shit 22:15 include the precursor to what became Grunt's object materials patch 22:15 <[Demo]> trying to think what else 22:15 Lots of brass stuff made it into dnh and grunt. 22:15 <[Demo]> skills are all weird in that game 22:15 Object materials, too. 22:15 and ADOM-style skills 22:16 <@mtf> yea I saw the object materials stuff 22:16 <@mtf> that's neat 22:16 <[Demo]> id like to think dnethack harvested nearly all the good parts of that game 22:16 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Fem Law) polymorphed her first object, on T:13319 22:16 <[Demo]> !tell Chris_ANG add monsters riding steeds to dnh because brass has that and u dont and that was cool and u copped other cool shit from brass so you should do it if u want dnh to be the coolest variant ever 22:16 Will do, [Demo]! 22:17 <[Demo]> thanks beholder 22:17 -!- stenno_ has joined #hardfought 22:17 <@mtf> two MM in my MT shop 22:17 <@mtf> how nice 22:17 MM is a bad shorthand 22:17 it can stand for like 3 things 22:17 Magic Missile. 22:17 magic mapping 22:18 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 1709 points, T:2670, quit 22:18 winny: ask K2 and Tangles about the devnull replacement tournament, they're the main movers of that AFAIK. 22:18 magic marker 22:18 Oooh, two markers? 22:18 aosdict: are you ais523? 22:18 That'd be nice. 22:19 (which is probably what mtf meant) 22:19 no, ais523 is ais523 22:19 I'm ais523 22:19 aosdict is someone else 22:19 lol, sorry for the highlight 22:19 * aosdict changes nick to aos523 22:19 /nick aws523 22:19 then ais523 should change to aisdict 22:19 :P 22:19 /nick aus532 22:19 honestly i have not played nethack in months 22:19 :( 22:19 aes523 22:20 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:20 i have some promising characters but don't want to ruin them, on hardfought & alt.org 22:20 That sounds like a hashing algo 22:20 jonadab: it does 22:20 was thinking that 22:20 aes512 22:21 my friend made a simple gamepad -> nethack interface because it's a lot more comfortable with RSI, but it's pretty lacking 22:21 i use dvorak, so the keystrokes are pretty suboptimal 22:21 winny: I've had thoughts about a gamepad UI 22:21 this is it if you're curious https://github.com/neonfuz/nethack-controller 22:22 winny: https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/827jfe/are_any_oldschool_roguelikes_ever_gonna_get/dv8n6gr/ 22:22 [hdf-us] [fh] EasyHack (mtf) (Sam Hum Mal Law), 29574 points, T:1757, killed by an invisible blue jelly 22:22 <@mtf> lol 22:22 too hard still I see 22:23 ais523: yeah my friend did similar thing with diagonals 22:23 @mtf: that's quite the death 22:23 [hdf-us] [dnh] aximili (Ana Hum Mal Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:990 22:23 he basically wrote a program that spawns nethack in tmux and uses tmux to send keys 22:23 ais523: a nymph stole make invisible 22:23 I'd do it by editing the windowport 22:23 I guess she zapped it 22:23 (was watching) 22:23 FIQ: aha, so it's much easier in FIQHack than vanilla 22:23 it could add tighter integration by editing the nethack source, true 22:23 <@mtf> ais: haha yea... I saw a nymph zap make invis, thought he did it on himself... so I thought I was smacking a nymph, not a blue jelly 22:24 because in vanilla the nymph would only be able to self-target 22:24 <@mtf> not really paying attention 22:24 @mtf you had ESP 22:24 you would have seen the nymph 22:24 also hardfought folks, cc K2 should add zapm permanently 22:24 <@mtf> yea I was confused 22:24 <@mtf> the nymph disappeared somehow 22:24 it's a hit 22:24 winny: press z 22:24 <@mtf> like, off the whole floor 22:24 oh, it's still there? 22:24 last time i looked i didn't see the menu 22:24 press z 22:25 oh it's hidden! 22:25 ! 22:25 yep 22:25 did u guys fix the exploding barrel bug 22:25 no idea 22:25 ask K2 22:25 so stupid, it causes crashes only on specific systems 22:25 is hardfought included 22:25 https://github.com/winny-/ZAPM-winny/commit/c404922c67e17510998b09dffeece85d4754cc04 yes i'm serious 22:26 [hdf-us] [xnh] krm26 (Kni Hum Fem Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:13759 22:26 you might want to !tell K2 about it 22:26 idk, have to test, presumably not if it's the same build from the tribute - as i'm certain somebody would have reported that bug 22:26 like i said it appears to only affect certain systems 22:26 on my netbook it works fine, on my desktop it doesn't 22:26 <@mtf> ugh I'm just not in the right state of mind to play roguelikes today... been so hungover all day 22:26 @mtf rip 22:26 both running arch, netbook has a celeron, desktop has a fx series amd 22:26 winny: btw I replied to your question about tournaments on the wiki 22:27 there will almost certainly be one in June 22:27 yeah i saw, that's why i was trying to correct aosdict to you ais523 22:27 November is unclear atm 22:27 aha :-) 22:27 :) 22:27 well, maybe i shouldn't take summerschool 22:27 aosdict is Phol Ende Wodan on the wiki 22:27 so i can play in june 22:27 and how I wish I could just change it to aosdict 22:27 winny: junethack has been running each year since 2011 22:28 aosdict: maybe you can if you ask nicely 22:28 I had totally forgotten about it - i remember trying it one year, and found my account didn't link, so i gave up after a few days 22:28 apparently I could change my name on Wikipedia 22:28 I just checked, looks like we don't have any user-renaming extensions installed 22:28 i regrettably didn't contact the tournament curator 22:28 renames on MediaWiki are kind-of awkward, they have to basically search every table that contains usernames and change the username there 22:28 winny: there's always people having trouble with the linking 22:28 especially on multivariant servers, or NH4 variants 22:29 do you know what sort of issues caused it? 22:29 just so i can stuff it into my brain for a few months later 22:29 I suppose it'd have to be "Aosdict" which looks a little weird to me anyway. 22:29 well linking multivariant servers is just unintuitive in general (it has a central rc that it checks... previous tournaments didn't tell you this) 22:29 Always a bit jarring when I'm fighting a ghost named aosdict or something. 22:29 and NH4 configs has been broken several times 22:30 so is it a matter of placing the link in the wrong rc file, or the parsing didn't pick it up? 22:30 as said 22:30 it can be both 22:30 latter for NH4 22:30 ah I see, at any rate I will be proactive this time around if it happens 22:30 former, user error for multivariant servers 22:31 I keep forgetting to start the junethack daemon 22:31 something like 2 or 3 years in a row that's happened now 22:31 maybe start it now to not forget :-) 22:31 then I often forget to stop it again in July 22:31 so serious question, are there any nethack drinking games 22:31 <[Demo]> oh cool got stolen openbsd with cde working 22:32 "stolen" openbsd? 22:32 [Demo]: opencde? that has got to look cool 22:32 stolen openbsd? 22:32 It's openbsd... it's open source? 22:32 you could violate the license I guess, if you really tried hard 22:32 there is this nicely done cde open source version floating around- it might be open sourced from the original, it's been awhile since i saw it 22:32 that could be an interesting challenge 22:33 violate the everyone but richard stallman license 22:33 <[Demo]> yo its not my install though 22:33 <[Demo]> i stole it 22:33 is there a bot here with !tell or !mail? 22:33 !tell winny No 22:33 Will do, FIQ! 22:33 <[Demo]> like i didnt spend the painstaking hours trying to get cde to actually work 22:33 no! 22:33 winny: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-31 22:33 EDT: No 22:34 <[Demo]> i let someone else do that while i laughed at them and then i stole a copy of the fruits of their labour 22:34 !tell K2 exploding barrels bug in zapm - i assume you fixed it - but it only affects certain systems in my experience https://github.com/winny-/ZAPM-winny/commit/c404922c67e17510998b09dffeece85d4754cc04 22:34 Will do, winny! 22:34 that sounds like something [Demo] would do 22:34 <[Demo]> yo i dont even want it i just did this to slightly peeve them and its cool to have in a sack of goodies 22:34 mock developers for doing stuff 22:35 <[Demo]> yeah 22:35 both things he likes 22:35 and things he don't 22:35 <[Demo]> thats half the game 22:35 it looks like either they fixed the bug or their server isn't affected 22:35 <[Demo]> the other half is dying cause im bad 22:35 and twisting design goals against them 22:35 <[Demo]> oh well 22:35 dnethack should totally add this silly obscure D&D mechanic 22:35 <[Demo]> like at least im together enough im not on the streets 22:35 i wish i played my most recent ascension on hf zapm, because it was glorious 22:36 fiqhack should totally add this ridiculous mechanic to monsters because symmetry 22:36 <[Demo]> yes 22:36 etc 22:36 fnethack should remove the quest 22:36 <[Demo]> u should see the shit i sling at amy 22:36 <[Demo]> in her channel 22:36 FIQ: we do this to slex all the time though 22:36 ais523: true 22:37 hmm 22:37 it kind-of backfired when I suggested adding the Evil Variant sokoban levels and discovered they were already there, though :-( 22:37 haha 22:37 I only did the level 2 ones 22:37 hmm, was trying to figure out how to parody YANIs for variants depending on what their goals are 22:37 on one of the levels I was planning for there to just not be enough boulders 22:38 but then I realized that I don't know half of the variant's design goals 22:38 with NH4's goals, it's fairly likely that any parody YANI that fits the design goals will be taken seriously, but never implemented due to lack of time 22:38 <[Demo]> most dont have one 22:38 <[Demo]> congratulations fiq u arent retarded and ur variant actually has a purpose 22:38 ais523: that's enough of a satire for me 22:38 <[Demo]> thats actually pretty impressive 22:38 [Demo]: well, some variants' goals in practice can be inferred from what they do 22:39 <[Demo]> yeah but a lot of variants just do a lot of random bullshit 22:39 loke, spork's design goal is to nerf everything to the ground 22:39 ;) 22:39 NH4 actually has a philosophy document 22:39 <[Demo]> which is fine and amusing 22:39 *like 22:39 <[Demo]> nh4 makes sense yes 22:39 <[Demo]> ndnh is fucking retarded and whoever though illithanachronounbinders should actually ever be implemented should be shot 22:39 NitroHack's philosophy is also easy enough to explain: "don't change the gameplay, improve and modernize the internals, improve the interface" 22:40 <[Demo]> yeah modernization makes a lot of sense for a game like nethack 22:40 that is a noble design goal 22:40 but the questio nis 22:40 did it succeed 22:40 <[Demo]> as much as i dont like nh4 i like what it does but i dont want to accept it as a cruel needed reality that isnt that cruel 22:40 <[Demo]> i just dont like it cause its change 22:40 <[Demo]> and that scares me 22:40 I think nitrohack did succeed really well when it comes to making the UI sane 22:41 and in general, user-facing stuff when it doesn't break down horribly works mostly well with some minor issues 22:41 internals is insane though 22:41 *are 22:41 FIQ: NitroHack was pretty clearly aiming to work towards its design goal, it just wasn't very good at it 22:42 ais523: if working from acehack taking nitrohack stuff would have made nh4 have 7 options 22:42 then I am happy that you did the reverse 22:42 sorry 22:43 it's OK, there are some decisions I made in AceHack which were so controversial 22:43 that I didn't preserve them in NH4 22:43 (such as the "remove most of the options" decision) 22:43 <[Demo]> like the much cooler name? 22:43 <[Demo]> oh 22:43 NH4 was a much more practical name 22:43 tacehack has a much cooler logo than NH4 22:43 <[Demo]> yeah but whats the rad factor on a boring number? 22:43 given that it almost certainly caused the release of NH3.6 22:43 <[Demo]> acehack sounds radical 22:43 *acehack 22:43 <[Demo]> oh yeah good job on that 22:44 it has the coolest logo among all variants 22:45 this is clearly the most important metric 22:45 <[Demo]> does it have ducks? 22:45 how good a variant is depends on how good its logo is 22:45 no 22:45 it is CYAN 22:45 caused the release of 3.6 how? by jarring the devteam into realizing that someone's going to convince everyone that theirs is the true new version of nethack? 22:45 with a brown hexagram behind it 22:45 <[Demo]> it sounds like terrorism to me 22:45 aosdict: it inspired the leak 22:46 <[Demo]> good job causing good chaos 22:46 aosdict: no, ais523 is right 22:46 in a very roundabout way 22:46 as in, the person who leaked it saw "ooh, there's a variant called NetHack4, let's send them a copy of our internal source code" 22:46 tungtn has a blog post about it 22:46 ais523: that is certainly not what caused the leak 22:46 unless you are implying that you leaked it to the public 22:47 <[Demo]> whoever the fuck didnt genocide arch liches let that shit happen 22:47 <[Demo]> cause im still convinced kerio is an arch lich 22:47 someone leaked it to kerio 22:47 knowing full well how well he would keep the secret 22:47 FIQ: I didn't personally leak it to the public 22:47 i.e. not at all 22:47 <[Demo]> yeah but they dont matter because they might be here 22:47 I sent copies to a few other variant developers 22:47 <[Demo]> and i dont wanna be a dick to them too much 22:47 it is possible that one of them leaked it, and also possible that the original leaker sent another copy to someone else 22:47 <[Demo]> but i dont mind being a dick to kerio because hes too jaded to care 22:49 the original leaker did want it to become public 22:49 ais523: does DT care about variants 22:49 like, at all 22:49 we had an IRC channel going through the leak to sanitize out personal information, etc. 22:49 the way they went about with 3.6 seems to suggest no 22:49 <[Demo]> do variants care about DT? 22:49 and other things that shouldn't be public 22:49 unless they assumed merging 10 years of bug fixes would be easy 22:49 that takes a while because it was an internal repository and wasn't ever intended to become public, so it had lots of things that weren't appropriate for public view 22:49 [hdf-us] [nh4] kek (Val Dwa Fem Law), 35576 points, T:4332, killed by a soldier ant 22:49 *that took a while 22:49 <[Demo]> hey where can i find a nice old copy of that unsanitized leak? 22:49 <[Demo]> asking for a friend 22:50 FIQ: they steal features from variants 22:50 [Demo]: you can't 22:50 it'd literally be illegal to post it 22:50 <[Demo]> good job 22:50 ais523: that doesn't mean he can't 22:50 luckily only the sanitized version got out 22:50 <[Demo]> what if i have select packages i want to send to dt members? 22:50 * aosdict still doesn't know how something like the nethack codebase, which is explicitly intended to be released to the public, can contain stuff that "isn't appropriate for public view" 22:50 <[Demo]> like i wanna put my cat in a box 22:50 <[Demo]> and send it to them 22:50 <[Demo]> and they get to figure out 22:51 [hdf-us] [slex] dolores (Dol Ang Fem Cha), 1405 points, T:1648, killed by a bolt of fire 22:51 (actually, only a subset of it got out at the time; the full sanitized version of the leak is available on sourceforge and github in the history of the devteam's repository) 22:51 like, are you putting saucy ascii art drawings in the source and then cleaning them all out when it's release time 22:51 aosdict: the leak wasn't just the codebase 22:51 aosdict: private emails and such 22:51 right, emails was the main bulk of it 22:51 <[Demo]> those are my favorite emails to read 22:51 <[Demo]> cause like i like my emails being pricate 22:51 <[Demo]> private 22:51 I never got to see the leak 22:51 (not a complete record but copy-pasted bits of emails) 22:52 FIQ: you weren't around at the time 22:52 I am very disappointed that you didn't anticipate me becoming a variant dev 2 years later 22:52 <[Demo]> yeah u gotta plan ahead 22:52 when you didn't even know who I was 22:52 <[Demo]> just leak a new version 22:53 <[Demo]> fiq u should pretend to leak fiqhack development team secrets 22:53 actually the leak might have been what made me interested in trying nethack 22:53 there are no secrets 22:53 <[Demo]> make some up 22:53 <[Demo]> some absurd shit 22:53 <[Demo]> then pretend to leak it or whatever 22:53 fiqhack development consist of me thinking stuff out 22:53 and then if I like it 22:53 <[Demo]> thats not very exciting 22:53 try to remember it for a while 22:54 if I don't forget it 22:54 <[Demo]> i want a story an action movie can be produced out of 22:54 it means it is worthwhile to add 22:54 <[Demo]> dont u wanna be played by like tom hanks or something? 22:54 <[Demo]> ur really letting down the audiences 22:54 :O such secrets! 22:54 I also suggest YANIs on IRC sometimes 22:54 to see what people think 22:54 hmm, looking for the history of the leak 22:54 usually I don't listen 22:54 I accidentally came across wikia's page on the next version 22:54 <[Demo]> thats probably best 22:54 it is hilariously out of date 22:54 but sometimes I do 22:54 if the conseus is against me 22:54 <[Demo]> nerf wand patch 22:54 you are credited 214 times in the archive 22:54 like for pet choking 22:55 (and also conntains a reference to duke nukem forever, which /also/ got released eventually) 22:55 nobody liked that feature :( 22:55 <[Demo]> whens the april fools day nh vanilla release coming out? 22:55 that's a grunthack feature that got accidentally implemented in AceHack at one point 22:55 [Demo]: we considered it, there's no way to get it ready in time, though 22:55 yeah I was going to readd it 22:55 generally speaking we are always considering a release at any given point in time 22:55 <[Demo]> if my pet was dumb enough to choke to death id beat the shit out of it 22:55 I was downvoted hard 22:55 on that one 22:55 <[Demo]> and then it would stop choking 22:55 and not actually doing anything about it 22:56 ais523: how about 22:56 ais523: they very obviously just stuck that one paragraph at the top of the page 22:56 doign something about it 22:56 *doing 22:56 aosdict: yes 22:56 and then the afterwards 22:56 <[Demo]> why cant monks hella punch? 22:56 FIQ: I personally couldn't, the build/repo process inside the devteam is utterly insane 22:56 <[Demo]> where they punch shit so hard it gets knocked back? 22:56 as you noticed in your comments about the githash thing 22:56 let me do it 22:57 I promise the codebase is under good hands 22:57 and I will never sneak in ANSI code 22:57 while nobody is looking 22:57 that's paxed's job :-P 22:57 [Demo]: they can..? 22:57 hm 22:57 prett sure they can 22:57 *pretty 22:57 <[Demo]> staggering blowsyeahhh 22:58 yeah 22:58 that 22:58 <[Demo]> i meant like dnh knockback 22:58 <[Demo]> like those bitches go flying 22:58 like jousting? 22:58 FIQ: the githash thing gave me a really good view of what being on the devteam is like, and why nothing ever seems to get done 22:58 [Demo]: i like your style 22:58 <[Demo]> no like fucking fly 40 squares across the bigroom and explode in a ball of chakra zen 22:58 ais523: but I don't understand 22:58 [hdf-us] [slex] dolores (Zyb Hax Fem Cha), 264 points, T:160, killed by a bolt of cold 22:58 if it's really that bad 22:58 why can't people just 22:58 to try to encourage some activity 22:58 <[Demo]> and revive from the dead as an enslaved by budhha monk pet 22:58 there was plenty of activity about it 22:58 ask "ok I will add this" in the mailing list 22:59 ais523: it really seems like what you need to do is sit down together (virtually) and establish some communication guidelines 22:59 see if anyone responds 22:59 if nobody does, add it 22:59 but we ended up with a solution that's massively complex and requires manual configuration by every user of the repo 22:59 you can't get anything done tiptoeing around everyone else tiptoeing around you 22:59 rinse and repeat 22:59 <[Demo]> the problem is there are too many sticks in asses 22:59 if anyone complains 22:59 "well you could have said something when I asked..." 22:59 FIQ: we tried at one point, at least me and paxed did 23:00 it ended up with us commiting things that the other didn't like and being too scared to revert 23:00 <[Demo]> so the vibe i get coming from the devteam zone is that the oldguard devteam takes themselves very seriously 23:00 (e.g. I feel that 3.6's early game gold nerf is imbalanced) 23:00 that gold nerf hit me hard in xnh 23:00 I couldn't buy a magic lamp 23:00 without collecting a bunch of stufff in the mines 23:00 *stuff 23:00 and selling 23:01 it wasn't hard 23:01 it was just annoying 23:01 <[Demo]> patch in some money making features from slex 23:01 hmm, thanks for the ammo I guess 23:01 <[Demo]> honestly if u cant whore urself to the mines watch yet in slex then what the fuck is amy doing 23:01 * aosdict gives ais523 10 +0 arrows 23:02 if you see single gold coins in slex 23:02 you can bet they replaced some actually useful item 23:02 it is a very good marker 23:02 because single coins basically never generate 23:02 otherwise 23:02 <[Demo]> slex is so great i wish id come up with it 23:03 <[Demo]> its such a product of a personality 23:03 @mtf tome of pay2win is a silly item 23:03 does it still give para res 23:04 <@mtf> fiq your memes are old and outdated 23:04 but does it 23:04 I forgot 23:04 <@mtf> yes it still gives para res, but it no longer gives every res at once 23:04 I know it was nerfed 23:04 ahh 23:04 so it's still broken 23:04 <@mtf> nah 23:04 <@mtf> not at all 23:04 <@mtf> he severly nerfed the number of times you actually get to read the book 23:05 <[Demo]> does fh still not tell u what ur stepping on or is that fixed yet? 23:05 ok so tell me how to get para res 23:05 <@mtf> you just read it 23:05 without tome of pay2win 23:05 <@mtf> and if you get lucky, you get it 23:05 and massive RNG 23:05 [Demo]: I fixed it 23:05 <@mtf> without it? you do it like you normally do in the game 23:05 <[Demo]> oh nice wow 23:05 <@mtf> which is via artifacts, amulet of free action, etc 23:05 yeah 23:05 extrinsicsc 23:05 intrinsics are far more valuable 23:05 is the tome of donors only available /to/ donors? or is it simply a way to honour their donations? 23:05 you should know this 23:05 <@mtf> you can get it from a pool as well 23:05 <@mtf> and from gelatinous cube corpses 23:05 <[Demo]> i wanna use my card to buy an aols in nethack so i can keep going! 23:06 ais523: only available in versions you pay or 23:06 <[Demo]> no i fucking dont jesus christ 23:06 *for 23:06 which isn't strictly donors-only 23:06 but yeah, pay2win 23:06 allthough not as egregious as it used to be 23:06 <@mtf> It's no longer an OP artifact IMO 23:06 <[Demo]> yo holy shit hows nethack licensed? 23:06 @mtf gelatinous cube corpses are *rare* 23:06 <@mtf> they are 23:06 <[Demo]> fuck gpl abort abort 23:06 and isn't the chance to get it like 20% 23:06 [Demo]: it's licensed under the NGPL 23:06 <@mtf> yup, it's low 23:06 which is based off a really old, buggy draft of the GPL 23:06 that's not the GNU GPL. 23:07 *of the GNU GPL 23:07 so it's like the GPL but weirder and buggier 23:07 <[Demo]> so like if i wanted to run a server that offered save scumming for money could i do that? 23:07 [Demo]: you can stay calm 23:07 and has some really weird restrictions somehow 23:07 GPL doesn't disallow commercial selling 23:07 <[Demo]> like if u die u can restore from ur last turn if u give me a dollar 23:07 [Demo]: yes, all the loopholes in GPLv2 are in NGPL too, as far as I know 23:07 and that's one of them 23:07 <[Demo]> ok so like 23:07 <@mtf> most of the time I solve my paralysis problems with an ammy of free action... they're not rare, and it's 100% worth wearing one if you don't get an artifact that gives para res 23:07 <[Demo]> write a ghetto dgl knockoff that supports that 23:07 <[Demo]> run rad competitions 23:07 @mtf but what if I want to use some other ammy 23:07 <[Demo]> and offer paid revives 23:08 <[Demo]> boom 23:08 <@mtf> then you manage your defenses well 23:08 [Demo]: just tell people to donate 23:08 <[Demo]> i bet that could make a little money? 23:08 <@mtf> you can swap out gear 23:08 <[Demo]> thats some hobo shit 23:08 you'll gain money without doing any work 23:08 100% realible 23:08 (*: your mileage may vary) 23:08 <[Demo]> asking for people to donate is chill only if ur like offering something of real value 23:08 <[Demo]> otherwise ur a dick 23:08 -!- stenno_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:08 <[Demo]> now slamming them upfront and trying to not guilt them or anything for even more money 23:08 <[Demo]> thats pretty ethical 23:08 I think it's defensible to ask for donations to, e.g., cover server costs 23:09 <[Demo]> yes that is fine 23:09 * ais523 checks to see if nethack4.org is actually funded at the moment 23:09 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 23:09 yeah demanding more seems dubious 23:09 than what covers server costs and such 23:09 domains 23:09 <[Demo]> right 23:09 etc 23:10 the server has 4-5 months of funding left atm, that's not too bad at all 23:10 um 23:10 what are you going to do 23:10 when it runs ouit 23:10 *out 23:10 pay for more 23:10 fair enough 23:10 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:10 <@mtf> how much could nethack.org server costs actually be 23:10 <[Demo]> ur nethack4 server? 23:10 it runs my email, blog, etc. too 23:10 sounded a bit like "after 5 months, I'll let it die" 23:11 ais523: who's the server provider, aws? 23:11 it's not too expensive, I can (at least at present) afford to keep it running 23:11 aosdict: Gandi 23:11 domain name expires in 2023 23:11 <[Demo]> if k2 was like trying to cop some coverage money id probably donate but like I know for a fact he doesnt need that shit cause that mans doing pretty well 23:11 so that's not urgent to renew at all 23:11 <[Demo]> i wish i could donate something more valuable like my time though cause shit man hes doing some good shit here 23:12 donate a month's salary 23:12 that way you donate your time 23:12 ;) 23:12 technically speaking that doesn't work unless you take a second job 23:14 <[Demo]> yeah maybe with that he could go on a dollar tree shopping spree 23:14 what the heck i got a highscore for zapm (and lots of other ppl ascended) and i died the level after robottown (zapm) 23:15 or not, i can't read! 23:15 :) 23:15 I once farmed a bit in zapm 23:15 and took down hdf 23:15 it's incredibly unbalanced 23:15 as a result 23:15 maybe I farmed a bit too much 23:15 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 23:16 all you need is rng jesus and a tribble early on, and you can get relatively high xp early 23:16 @mtf I think I'm done with Qud for a while... finished main stuff as far as I can for now... man these loading screens drive me insane 23:16 easily the most annoying part of qud 23:16 IMO 23:16 <@mtf> loading screens between zones? are they that bad? 23:17 yes 23:17 they're horrible 23:17 <@mtf> do you have an SSD? 23:17 double checked my setup 23:17 because I did it years ago 23:17 kind of, but not applicable here 23:17 my / is on an ssd 23:17 my /home is not 23:17 (where qud is) 23:17 <@mtf> so qud isn't on the SSD 23:18 right 23:18 but look 23:18 it's a single screen 23:18 <@mtf> you'd probably see a major improvement if you moved it over 23:18 with a bunch of monsters 23:18 NetHack doesn't take 10 seconds to load a new level 23:18 <@mtf> because I haven't noticed any load times being that bad... unless things have changed 23:18 <[Demo]> nethack4 might 23:18 <@mtf> nethack isn't a gigantic world 23:18 [Demo]: no 23:18 @mtf that isn't the point 23:18 <[Demo]> that was a joke please dont hurt i just wanted to call it mean names 23:19 there is no reason a single zone has to take 10 seconds to load 23:19 <@mtf> sure it is, I'm pretty sure the giant 9x9 tiles are all active while you on a chunk 23:19 no 23:19 and even if it was 23:19 moving single screens should only take time when you do a complete zone transition 23:19 this is not the case 23:19 moving a single screen 23:19 unless what you are moving to is cached 23:20 takes time 23:20 <[Demo]> is ur computer a toaster? 23:20 and it slows down the larger the game is 23:20 [Demo]: no 23:20 try qud 23:20 <@mtf> isn't that because the world is gen'ed as you move into it? 23:20 @mtf yeah I could see that 23:20 but even for areas you revisit 23:20 it takes forever 23:21 (not literally... but several seconds get *really annoying* over time) 23:21 and as you explore more of the world 23:21 it slows down 23:21 <@mtf> yea, I dunno... could just be how unity handles assets 23:21 <@mtf> I also don't have load times of several seconds heh 23:21 it gets horrible in lategame 23:21 like, I was moving around in grit gate heading down to dlvl21 23:22 for a part of a quest 23:22 <@mtf> I mean, ADOM has some load times in certain zones, and it's not nearly the size of QUD 23:22 and every zone transitions 23:22 took like 20 seconds 23:22 and sometimes the game would load in the middle of a zone as you walked 23:22 probably things falling down holes and whatnot 23:22 let your save grow large enough 23:23 and the game might outright crash 23:23 <@mtf> man, I really haven't had those issues 23:23 are you on linux 23:23 <@mtf> neither the crashes or the load time problems 23:23 <@mtf> nope 23:23 apparently unity linux is dumb 23:23 someone is using wine to play qud 23:23 to get around unity shenanigans 23:24 <[Demo]> oh its a shitty unity game? 23:24 yes 23:24 <@mtf> yea didn't think about that, I have no idea how unity performs on linux 23:24 <[Demo]> well nevermind then 23:24 hey the game does have some cool stuf 23:24 f 23:24 it's just held back by awful tech 23:24 <@mtf> lol if that causes you to discount it as a game, you're making a mistake 23:24 <[Demo]> thats a joke im fine with shitty unity games if they arent actually shitty 23:25 the game has crazy broken stuff 23:25 @mtf Just think of what jonadab would say. 23:25 and it's fun that way 23:25 "If I can't play it in a screen session, it's unplayable for me." 23:25 <[Demo]> heh 23:25 well I mean 23:25 <@mtf> lol 23:25 I do miss being able to play it in a terminal 23:25 it would allow me to play it on my OP 23:25 through ssh etc 23:25 well 23:25 <@mtf> I find that to be a very closed-minded way to approach gaming 😛 23:25 I would be able to 23:26 if my OP wasn't dead 23:26 ._. 23:26 <[Demo]> im gonna drop off for a moment and see if my pi wificatcher is any better than this shit wireless adapter 23:29 @mtf your qud playthrough starts with cheese 23:29 <@mtf> hmm? 23:29 do you continue to cheese thorough the playthrouigh 23:29 *playthrough 23:29 you start by looting the entire starter town 23:29 robbing stuff rom the poor villagers 23:30 <@mtf> looting the starter town isn't cheese >.> It's been in the game for forever 23:30 <@mtf> you have to make sure they don't see you 23:30 <@mtf> or they attack 23:30 <@mtf> only the merchant doesn't give a shit 23:30 it is totally cheese 23:30 <@mtf> because it's not his loot in the chest in his house 23:30 it is a very opaque mechanic 23:30 <@mtf> it's not 23:30 <@mtf> it's thievery 23:30 <@mtf> and I steal from all kinds of other towns 23:30 lol 23:30 so you don't cheeese 23:30 is what you're saying 23:30 <[Demo]> goddamit its not working off the usb port whyy 23:30 <@mtf> I don't consider that cheese, so yea 😛 23:31 ah 23:31 <@mtf> I highly recommend you do it too 23:31 then you aren't playing the game right 23:31 you see 23:31 <@mtf> I'd say it's you that isn't 23:31 <[Demo]> i should just go to sleep 23:31 <@mtf> cause your'e missing out on all that sweet loot in the beginning 23:31 qud's mechanics is completely bonkers broken 23:31 it is meant to be cheesed 23:31 more fun to exploit 23:31 than to play normally 23:31 <@mtf> meh I don't like exploiting 23:31 <@mtf> but stealing from a town isn't exploiting lol 23:32 meh 23:32 I don't exploit dnethack segfault 23:32 s 23:32 or rng abuse 23:32 <[Demo]> yeah if u do that u suck 23:32 but qud invites abusing its mechanics 23:32 <@mtf> how so? 23:32 it has not just a single broken mechanic or two 23:32 it has a ton of them 23:32 <[Demo]> so does dnh 23:32 controlled teleportation + clairvoyance 23:32 phasing 23:33 <@mtf> ehh I don't think those things are broken 23:33 multiple legs + yesdorian slippers 23:33 <@mtf> have you fought some of the crazier enemies in the late game? 23:33 <@mtf> like the chrome pyramid? 23:33 (or whatever they're spelled) 23:33 DOMINATION 23:33 and yes I have 23:34 weeps give infinite money so shops is basically free items 23:34 and if you have domination you can just dominate the shopkeeprs 23:34 *shopkeepers 23:34 and drop their items 23:34 <@mtf> does that ruin the shop then? 23:34 no 23:34 they will properly restock like usual 23:34 <@mtf> heh well they probably shouldn't do that.. 23:34 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 23:35 oh and 23:35 legendary merchants have ridiculous attribute scores 23:35 <@mtf> I've never really played any esper comboes, I always go melee 23:35 so they make for nice and OP allies 23:35 I haven't actually killed a chrome pyramid btw because they have 4k HP 23:35 why bother 23:36 but I have killed everything else 23:36 <[Demo]> anyone here used lede? 23:36 but if you really want to 23:36 force wall can cheese those to 23:36 o 23:36 box them in and let them blow themselves up 23:36 <@mtf> FIQ: some other end game monsters are even more interesting than the chrome pyramids 23:37 takes forever though and you need several layers of it 23:37 <@mtf> the one I die to on stream, I never figured out how to hurt 23:37 what did you die to 23:37 <@mtf> don't remember, but it was crazy 23:37 rhinox 23:37 magma crab 23:37 <[Demo]> holy shit wow i fixed it 23:37 saad amus 23:37 <@mtf> lul, no 23:37 phi 23:37 leering stalker 23:37 <@mtf> I killed saad I think 23:37 <[Demo]> wow this is faster! 23:38 those are the non-chrome-pyramid top tiers 23:38 that I know of 23:38 <[Demo]> i dont have to buy an expensive nice wireless usb adaptor now! 23:38 phi isn't really a threat to you, but to a dungeon level 23:38 <@mtf> whatever it was, I couldn't harm it with my axes or guns 23:38 high AC foes do that 23:38 AV, even 23:38 <@mtf> I was very OP 23:39 hold on let me check your stream 23:39 it will say what you died to 23:39 so even if I wont understand the tile 23:39 or hear what you sa 23:39 <[Demo]> how do i make a usb port that gives off a lot of power? i want one that gives a lot of power so when i turn off the computer it turns off my wireless bridge device that is powered off ocmputer usb port. i want a lot of power in it so it will run. :( 23:39 it should help 23:39 *say 23:40 @mtf you said you died 23:40 but i nyour video title 23:40 you say Win 23:40 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 23:40 <@mtf> yea, I "won" the main story 23:40 <@mtf> as far as I could 23:40 <@mtf> though not really, I failed it due to some buggy reputation problem 23:40 <@mtf> so then I went to fight the games hardest monsters 23:40 <@mtf> and try to dive 23:40 <@mtf> I'd consider that a win 23:40 <@mtf> @FIQ ah it was a leering stalker 23:41 reputation problem 23:41 elaborate? 23:41 what was your last quest 23:41 ah yeah 23:41 those can be bad 23:42 but they're easier than pyramids... 23:42 lot less HP, less AV 23:42 and don't do a million damaage 23:42 *damage 23:42 with their rocket spam 23:42 <@mtf> I don't remember how I died tbh 23:42 they can stunlock 23:43 but their gun is really inaccuraete 23:43 *inaccurate 23:43 and has a tendency to miss 23:43 a lot 23:43 <@mtf> looks like I just fought him for forever and ran out of healing stuff 23:43 if you were fighting with axes 23:43 dismembering would have helped 23:43 <@mtf> I mean dude, watch the stream 23:43 <@mtf> I cut off everything 23:43 it would cut him off his weapon 23:43 <@mtf> including his face 23:43 that should have disarmed him 23:44 maybe there was a bug 23:44 and sorry I can't 23:44 I can't have sound through VNC 23:44 <@mtf> ah true, heh 23:44 <@mtf> yea I'm not sure 23:44 when I played this merchant with an axe 23:44 dismembering any of that stalker's 2 arms 23:44 disarms him 23:45 he's harmless after that 23:45 <@mtf> it was so long ago, not sure why I had a problem w/ him 23:45 <@mtf> I remember having fun though 23:45 <@mtf> need to try it again sometimes soon 23:45 I think chrome pyramids theoretically are similar but their AV is so high that I'm not sure if you can do it 23:45 <[Demo]> im really confused how running a wireless bridge across a pi into my ethernet is faster than using a usb wireless adaptor 23:45 <[Demo]> wait was i bottlenecking on usb speeds 23:46 dismember them and cut them off their weapons that is 23:46 <[Demo]> oh no i was not 23:46 btw, yesterday I discovered another major qud bug 23:46 if a legendary friendly overdoses on tonics 23:47 and create shadow twins 23:47 they stay friendly 23:47 and you can do the water ritual with them 23:47 gaining reputation with Playerhater 23:47 I think you can make esper assassins spawn friendly this way in theory 23:47 <[Demo]> ok im gonna sleep now finally i hope good luck not dying 23:48 no idea what Playerhater starts with though 23:48 might be -20000 23:49 @mtf also did I mention the bug I found last week 23:49 with stunning force 23:49 it is supposed to be limited to a range of 8 tiles 23:50 but while the target mark darkens, showing invalid location, when you go beyond 8 23:50 <@mtf> lul creating friendly shadow twins 23:50 you can fire like that just fine 23:50 <@mtf> great bug 23:50 so you can fire across the level 23:50 <@mtf> hahaha 23:50 <@mtf> that's great 23:51 <@mtf> have you reported this stuff to the devs? I think they're pretty good about listening to feedback 23:51 yes 23:51 they have ignored the reports 23:51 for all I know 23:51 stunning force I reported last week 23:51 patch notes doesn't have it 23:51 <@mtf> did you ping them in discord by any chance? 23:51 no 23:51 that sounds potentially annoying 23:52 <@mtf> give that a try 23:52 <@mtf> I see them hang around a lot 23:52 do you really think that is a good idea 23:52 <@mtf> oh? I ping you in discord for bugs 23:52 not sure, nobody else on the qud channel does that 23:52 and I Figured there was a good reason 23:52 <@mtf> lol, no 23:52 <@mtf> feel free 23:52 <@mtf> if they don't want to be pinged I'm sure they'll let you know 23:53 <@mtf> but they've been pretty social from what I've seen, they do dev streams every so often 23:56 see #cavesofqud 23:56 let's see if he lynches me for that 23:57 <@mtf> FIQ: there's also ptychomancer 23:57 <@mtf> if brian doesn't respond 23:57 should I highlight both of them? might be excessive 23:58 <@mtf> when I was helping with bugs for the ADOM team, I pinged all three devs that might be related 23:58 <@mtf> granted, might be a late now 😛 I usually do it all in one message 23:58 heh 23:58 oh well 23:58 6am 23:58 sleep time 23:59 <@mtf> have a good one! 23:59 I'll reply to pitchforks "tomorrow" 23:59 night 23:59 <@mtf> haha