00:02 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) wished for "blessed rustproof +2 helm of brilliance", on T:45450 00:04 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) wished for "magic marker", on T:45453 00:05 -!- emar has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:12 -!- hf_guest_33419 has joined #hardfought 00:15 -!- hf_guest_33419 has quit [Client Quit] 00:53 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Croesus, on T:22960 01:03 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the invisible Dark One, on T:49157 01:03 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:49158 01:11 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:49854 01:11 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Quit: BAd internet reception] 02:01 -!- mode/Beholder [+Zi] by Beholder 02:01 -!- card.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org or nethack@eu.hardfought.org ¤ aosdict's new variant xNetHack (beta) is now live! 02:01 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ 02:06 -!- mode/Beholder [+Zi] by Beholder 02:06 -!- card.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org or nethack@eu.hardfought.org ¤ aosdict's new variant xNetHack (beta) is now live! 02:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ 02:06 !ping 02:06 K2: Pong! 02:07 You hear the chime of a cash register. It explodes! 02:07 !who 02:07 K2: [hdf-us] bouquet [xnh] k2 [xnh] 02:07 K2: [hdf-eu] Raisse [xnh] 02:09 i need to look into redundant internet connection at the house 02:09 heh 02:09 should ask dtype what his setup is like 02:11 !tell hothraxxa thanks for the oracle consultation idea! https://github.com/SLASHEM-Extended/SLASHEM-Extended/commit/4e76cab400d5222a3bddfec0aebefc83885e00a5 ♥ 02:11 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 02:11 -!- hothraxxa has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:11 wtf did that !tell kick him out of the chat?! 02:14 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:50 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #hardfought 02:55 applying some security patches to both servers, rebooting very soon 02:55 -!- K2 has quit [Quit: Rico, smoke! *poof*] 03:01 -!- mode/Beholder [+Zi] by Beholder 03:01 -!- weber.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org or nethack@eu.hardfought.org ¤ aosdict's new variant xNetHack (beta) is now live! 03:01 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ 03:01 -!- K2 has joined #hardfought 03:01 -!- mode/#hardfought [+o K2] by ChanServ 03:02 !players 03:02 K2: [hdf-us] No current players 03:02 K2: [hdf-eu] No current players 03:02 * K2 smacks Beholder 03:02 ... 03:02 that worked 03:03 alrighty then 03:04 :( 03:04 nah no sad face 03:04 :] 03:05 \o/ 03:05 no one on either server at the moment, good time to do security updates and do required reboot 03:06 been needing to do that for a couple months now 03:06 hey, I was about to log on 03:06 you're good now 03:06 i just finished 03:06 coolies 03:06 er hang on, that's a historical name for slaves that used to work the canefields in northern Queensland... 03:06 kewl 03:06 that's better 03:07 hah oops 03:07 so hard being PC these days 03:10 werd 03:10 found a huuuuuuge cockatrice nest, 21x5 trices 03:10 gah 03:10 icebox handy? 03:10 given that my last 2 games have been cut short due to footrice yasds, maybe I should be wary 03:11 no icebox 03:11 no magic whistle 03:11 no stethoscope 03:11 no MR 03:11 no ref 03:11 Dlvl:20 03:12 on the positives, I've already blessed geno'd L 03:13 you have a rubber chicken? 03:13 no right at the moment 03:13 not 03:13 but hey, I know where to get one! 03:13 yeah stay away from that nest 03:13 heh 03:14 ok i need to go to sleep have to be up in 3 hrs 03:14 o/ 03:14 bye, gnite K2! 03:54 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 03:58 hi 03:58 Hello FIQ, Welcome to #hardfought 03:58 -!- K2-irccloud has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 03:58 Hello. 03:58 Hello tubs, Welcome to #hardfought 04:05 -!- hpardis has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:12 -!- _catalys1_ has joined #hardfought 04:16 !tell aosdict Pushed a fix to commandrepeat not working for getobj with dungeon features 04:16 Will do, FIQ! 04:23 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 04:23 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 04:36 Always scary 04:37 ... and an ogre king and both halves of a long worm. 04:38 :) 04:40 if the worm hadn't split in half and attacked me from both sides and got in the way even more than it already was, I might have escaped 04:41 and if I'd had a lizard corpse I wouldn't have had to pray earlier when a c slowed me down and I could have prayed this time. 04:41 ah well, back to the dungeon entrance 04:46 Hmm, since when was my big boy sword bloodthirsty? I accidentally killed some of my quest dudes and now the Malkuth are after me. :( 04:52 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:54 another shiny amulet... and no bag 04:55 oh no :( 04:57 A Hod Sephiroth got me with my own big boy blade. ;_; 05:19 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 06:40 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:45 I thought humans and elves were supposed to have roughly similar anatomy and size? 06:45 Why do elves weight almost half as much as humans? 06:50 <[Demo]> they aren't as swole? 06:53 <[Demo]> lankier and less stocky? 06:54 FIQ: Depends on the lore, but in Tolkein, elves are about a head taller than humans (on average) and weigh about as much as an anorexic teenage girl. 06:54 (It's not stated that way...) 06:55 they only eat that bland lembas kibble, no wonder they don't gain weight :P 06:55 Dwarves in contrast probably weigh about the same as a human. 06:55 jonadab: basically I was looking into making monster carry cap actually make sense 06:55 and not have a million weird cases 06:55 Ah. 06:55 and I figured I could just merge carry cap into a single function 06:56 now, there is 2 pelicular things I want to address 06:56 You could use the same formula as for players... if you had monster Str and Con that made sense :-) 06:56 1: the fact that NetHack currently translates player carrycap based on weight in a 1:1 ratio, which isn't how physics works (normally I wouldn't care, but this makes carrycaps for small forms ridiculous) 06:56 (Elves would have good Str but low Con.) 06:57 2: the fact that current player forms have wildly different weights -- Gnomes being lighter makes sense, Elves much less so 06:58 * LarienTelrunya proposes that the player's carry cap is always at least 500 no matter what you're polymorphed into :D 06:58 If a human weighs 100, an elf should probably weigh about 75. Lore-wise. 06:58 currently, a human weights 1450 and elves 800 06:58 Ok, that is a bit extreme. 06:58 They should be more like 1000. 06:59 <[Demo]> barbarians should weigh more than wizards 06:59 What does a dwarf weigh? 06:59 [Demo]: Also probably true. 06:59 900 06:59 Ok, see, Dwarves clearly should weigh more than elves. 06:59 Despite being a lot shorter. 06:59 <[Demo]> put it in kg and scale 06:59 But I would say a dwarf should weigh almost as much as a human. 06:59 Say, 1250 or so. 06:59 <[Demo]> idk how many kg humans weigh 06:59 [Demo]: I think it is more important to place focus on race than role 07:00 Even though yes, technically a Bar should be heavier than a Wiz 07:00 <[Demo]> monsters should have weight variance 07:00 [Demo]: my weight is about 70 kg 07:00 Gameplay trumps realism? 07:00 <[Demo]> it should be a range 07:00 I could live with it being a range that's automatically calculated. 07:00 As in, a monster can be up to 10% more or less than the book value. 07:00 <[Demo]> how many kg is like a healthy normal size 6 ft dude? 07:00 Or somesuch. 07:00 [Demo]: About 120 lbs. 07:00 No idea about kg. 07:01 <[Demo]> what 07:01 jonadab: anyway, I'm not exactly sure on the math here, but carrycap-wise, I think if something weights 1000x less, they should have 100x less carrycap 07:01 rather than 1000x less carrycap 07:01 Actually, with the level of athletics we've got in NetHack, more like 150 lbs. 07:01 I was thinking office worker. 07:01 So yeah, 150+ 07:01 <[Demo]> yeah 07:01 Shouldn't weight be based on swole-ness, i.e. con/str? 07:02 FIQ: So base carry cap on common log (ilogc ?) 07:02 wait, I'm smaller than 6 feet and weigh 154 lbs, does that mean I'm fat? :P 07:02 does NetHack have a function for this 07:02 LarienTelrunya: It's all relative. 07:03 I'm shorter than 6 feet and probably weigh 250ish? 07:03 even if I don my highest pair of heels I'm still smaller than 6 feet! 07:03 All my shoes have the same size heel. 07:03 I'm 5'8 and weigh 220 so I think you're probably safe. 07:03 LarienTelrunya: Still larger than me 07:03 All my shoes are the _same model of shoe_ in fact. 07:03 I'm 5ft 07:03 s/larger/taller/ 07:04 tubs: Yes, but your nick is tubs, so. 07:04 FIQ is a gnome? 07:04 I'm 5'5" and I'm not telling how much I weigh. 07:04 FIQ: oh, my roommate is also about 5 feet tall ;) 07:04 Sorry, couldn't resist the pun. 07:04 and don't wear heels 07:04 tubs: haha 07:04 True dat jonadab :D 07:04 Do you wear pointy hats?! 07:04 I have scoliosis. That's why I'm short 07:05 jonadab: that sounds extremely boring, men's shoes are already yawn-inducing most of the time but you don't even have differently-colored ones or anything? 07:05 I've always been by far the shortest in whatever group I am part of with similar age levels 07:05 LarienTelrunya: Sorry, no. 07:05 My brother outgrew me when he reached 14 or so 07:05 (little brother that is, 4 years below me) 07:06 I had my growth spurt early so I was the tallest in the class at 12, then almost everybody overtook me. 07:06 LarienTelrunya: I have a "newest" pair that I wear at most once a week. 07:06 To keep them nice, so I can wear them to things like funerals. 07:06 LarienTelrunya: I've met one girl who was absolutely crazy about shoes 07:06 jonadab: let me guess, they're all black? 07:06 And then I have a new-ish pair that I wear to work most of the time. 07:06 Black, yes. 07:06 I couldn't comprehend why she couldn't just have like 2 pairs 07:06 mine are all black! except the red sandals 07:06 And then I have an old-ish pair that I wear e.g. on rainy days. 07:06 depending on weather/context 07:06 And a really old pair that I keep around in case I go canoeing or something. 07:06 (I also have black sandals, and 3 slightly different pairs of ordinary shoes) 07:07 FIQ: well most of the pairs I own, I almost never wear for some reason. But I still want to possess them. :D 07:07 FIQ: it's called "Imelda syndrome" 07:07 Yeah see, I never understood that 07:07 <[Demo]> Yeah I'm not mental so I don't have more than a few different purpose shoes 07:07 Most people buy shoes for, well, using them 07:07 Then there's those people who buy a million of them 07:07 I hate shoe shopping so when they wear out I order a new pair of the same model from a web shop I've been using for years 07:08 (hate clothes shopping too) 07:08 Shoes are amazing but tubby little feet makes getting ones that fit hard. 07:08 at some point I stopped counting how many pairs of high heels I have, but it's certainly over 25 now, and more than double the amount of flats 07:08 oh wow, you should talk to my eldest daughter 07:08 I have a valid excuse for only wearing one model of shoe: it's the only model that actually *fits*. 07:08 (though I don't think she has more than about 30 pairs 07:08 jonadab: me too (Ecco Soft) 07:08 for a moment I misread "oh you only have 25 pairs? that isn't nearly as much as the one I met" 07:08 (i.e. the amount of high heels is more than double the amount of flats, in case that was ambiguous) 07:09 then I realized that you were talking just about a single type of shoes... 07:09 (My feet are widest at the front, across the toes. Fully half as wide as they are long.) 07:09 -!- emar has joined #hardfought 07:09 (If you spray painted my feet orange and covered me in feathers, I would look like Donald Duck.) 07:09 I'm width G on a scale of A to H, so not *quite* as wide as you but plenty wide enough 07:09 I use around 3 pairs. One in summer, one in winter, one all other times 07:10 Talking of variants, I can see one being descending to the lair of the Gucci, retrieving the holy heel, then going to sacrifice it at the altar of BSOD. 07:10 Sometimes I skip the winter switch alltogether 07:10 jonadab that sounds suspiciously like me. 07:10 FIQ: there's also the problem of finding space to store them all, preferably in a way that prevents them from being damaged 07:10 tubs: don't give her ideas 07:10 tubs: There is a role with gucci as the quest nemesis IIRC 07:11 Probably has a heel quest artifact 07:11 I don't know who gucci is even 07:11 but slex references him/her 07:11 FIQ: It's a clothing name brand. 07:11 Ahh 07:11 also handbags afaik 07:11 Hmm 07:11 Toward the low end of priced-high-enough-to-keep-poor-people-from-owning-it 07:11 Maybe I am confusing it with someone else then 07:12 I know slex has one heel-related nemesis 07:12 from real life 07:12 FIQ: Imelda Marcos :) (named "Imelda's Ghost" in slex) 07:12 Yeah that might be it 07:13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imelda_Marcos 07:13 fyu 07:13 fyi, even 07:13 Huh. According to that, she is still alive. 07:13 eep tubs, didn't realise it was cursed? 07:13 Throne ._. 07:14 jonadab: If tubs can't build FIQHack with aimake, that probably means OSX building is broken again 07:14 for NH4 07:14 FIQ: Oh, possible. 07:14 IIRC I got "petrified by a gas spore's explosion" or something like that a while ago 07:15 Might be worth telling ais523 about that 07:15 FIQ: Most likely due to changes on OS X. 07:15 So ais would need access to a recent version of OS X to fix it. 07:15 I'll give NH4 a go 07:15 Just to see ifI can build it. 07:15 tubs: NH4 has no makefile at all, so you'd be using the method you (tried to) use with FIQHack at first 07:15 tubs: Note that you will get error messages even on a successful build. 07:16 THat make it look like it failed. 07:16 ../aimake -i /path/to/installdir 07:16 from a build dir 07:16 Because among other things, building _shared libraries_ will definitely fail on OS X. 07:16 (So aimake will then try to build a static binary.) 07:16 jonadab: Why does it fail anyway? IIRC the makefile for FIQHack builds shared libraries 07:17 FIQ: I don't know. 07:17 yeah there's a libnethack.so in lib/ 07:17 I just know it does. 07:17 I think mostly because the aimake developer doesn't have access to OS X to fix it. 07:17 Aye same error find_default_dynamic_libraries still, I'm going to try and revive my perl knowledge and poke at it. 07:18 tubs: Note that you can get errors about dynamic libraries and still get a working build. That's what used to happen. 07:21 jonadab: Yes, I am considering adding attributes to monsters 07:21 True attributes, that is 07:22 I am wondering how I should handle polymorph in that case 07:23 Proportionally, I would say. So if your race permonst's Con would be 10 but yours is 15, and your polyform's would be 8, you end up 12. 07:24 jonadab: what I was thinking was to do something like that yeah (but absolutely, not proportionally) 07:24 but it gives unfair disadvantages to roles with lower "min levels" 07:24 err higher 07:24 not lower 07:24 for example 07:25 Tourists have these minimum levels: 10/7/7/7/10/7 07:25 Valkyrie, not Tourist 07:25 Tourists have: 7/10/6/7/7/10 07:26 This means that Tourists have a bigger net gain than Valkyries on polymorph 07:26 Don't go by the role min, go by the race permonst. 07:26 PM_HUMAN for example. 07:26 Ah 07:26 Hmm yeah that might work 07:27 Has the added benefit of also working for monsters. 07:27 Hmm 07:27 I actually removed the role/race advancement levels when I made my HP/Pw growth change 07:27 And made the game use the permonst ones instead 07:28 (This means that Gnomes and Dwarves, the base monster, have really weak HP/Pw growth, but I didn't consider this an issue since it's resolved as they grow up into lords) 07:29 Also, going by race permonst makes player race more relevant (albeit in a small way). This is good. 07:30 jonadab: Should I do something similar to what I did with advancement, to attributes? 07:30 Internally I mean 07:30 Make attributes a combination of your role and race stats 07:30 And throw it into the permonsts 07:31 Makes sense to me. 07:31 Then if you adjust the role permonsts so it works right for players, player-character monsters would be realistic. 07:32 They kind of wouldn't because they haven't had any chance to exercise theirs 07:32 And adding data to the permonst doesn't do much to save file size. 07:32 (Unlike adding data to struct monst itself.) 07:32 (Or, heaven help us, struct rm.) 07:33 Hmm. This ultimately means adding 4 sets of attributes on monsters 07:33 Not a problem size/memory-wise, but could be a bit awkward to manage 07:33 Four _sets_? 07:33 yes 07:33 Minimums, maximums, base attribute scores, and the distribution weights 07:33 Ah. 07:34 Probably I'd just add a bunch of new monst.c macros 07:35 problem is combinatorial explosions 07:35 currently I have 4 MON() macros 07:35 to avoid having to add a field to every single MON() entry 07:35 I have MON() itself 07:35 FMON() for the few monsters that need female name 07:35 AMON() for the ones that need custom advancement scores 07:35 AFMON for both 07:36 perhaps I should just have a MON 07:36 and an XMON 07:36 where X has *all* the extra attributes potentially needed 07:36 just that (usually) only a fraction of them is used 07:38 Umm, rather than creating new versions of MON for this, create macros for the different attribute values. 07:38 And just add them to the definitions of various monsters. 07:39 e.g. maybe ATTR_HORSE for all the horses and unicorns. 07:39 jonadab: For female monsters I considered it overkill to add a duplicate of the male name for every single monster definition in the game 07:39 Sure. 07:39 But every monster's gonna have attributes. 07:39 But yeah, I think that might work better here 07:40 Every monster will have the field. 07:40 Well, fields. 07:40 It's just a question of what the values are. 07:42 jonadab: For advancement I created extra MON() versions (similar to how object macros work generally). The reason being that the vast majority of monsters use generic growth numbers 07:42 That is what I am referencing 07:42 (advancement -> HP/Pw growth thing) 07:43 because my main focus there was to change HP growth for players. For monsters, I just wanted it to work mostly similar to now, but with the ability to customize them more 07:43 s/now/previously/ 07:48 Why would someone choose to use Perl, that's all I want to know now. :( 07:49 tubs: You tried to look into aimake? 07:49 Good luck 07:49 I'm running it in the perl debugger 07:49 Pure ais code isn't easy to understand IMO 07:50 It's failing trying to find the system default dynamic libraries, can't even find libc etc. 07:50 I think aimake does some really hacky stuff to get what it wants 07:50 That is my impression from ais comments, anyawy 07:50 *anyway 07:50 tubs: Perl is installed on most Linux distros by default and there is even a rather standard and simple way of installing it on Windows 07:51 For example, using aimake on Windows crashes its linker 07:51 But this will not prevent it from creating a build 07:51 So it was not considered a problem 07:51 bhaak it's writing Perl not running it I'm moaning about :) 07:51 I am not advocating for this behaviour. I find it ridiculous. I just stay away from aimake 07:51 tubs: I'm with you there. :-) 07:52 basically, aimake does a bunch of weird hackery 07:52 and maybe you get a resulting binary in the end 07:52 :D 07:52 if you're lucky 07:52 aimake doesn't really seem to care either way 07:52 iy can report success 07:52 without a resulting binary 07:52 *it 07:52 because it did everything you told it to 07:52 That's what happened when I told it to ignore the error. 07:52 it can succeed 07:52 with a binary 07:52 it can fail 07:52 without a binary 07:52 and it can fail 07:53 but have a working binary anyway 07:53 it's more trouble than cmake. cmake often doesn't fail during configuration when it should but it won't report success when it didn't run through :) 07:53 I was going to say!!! I understand the hate for cmake or Makefiles but they are not *that* bad! 07:54 someone made FIQHack's makefile for me 07:54 I've never looked back since unless building with tiles, or on Windows for deploying a release 07:54 Though terrifyingly I'm starting work in a month where I will be forced to use *vomits* xcode build config. 07:54 also I feel that I can understand the makefile much better than the equivalent aimake file, aimake.rules 07:55 Yeah I think Makefile wins because most of the logic is in the "make" executable, rather than in your script. 07:55 everyone outside NH4 context I've seen has either called aimake bad, or outright mocked it 07:56 assuming they've heard of it 07:56 I'm pretty sure if people saw the rubbish I wrote they would mock it AND call it bad. :) 07:57 I like to think that my code is at least decent 07:57 morning 07:57 but it feels like most programmers think everyone else writes shitty code 07:57 sometimes even their own code unknowingly :D 07:57 "who wrote this shit? oh... I did" 07:58 hooray for git blame 07:58 <[Demo]> heh 07:58 -!- raisse has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:58 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 07:58 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 08:00 FIQ: you should start to worry if you look at old code and don't think you could do it better today. that would mean, you haven't improved as programmer :-) (of course, there can always be other reasons why the code can't be better. sometimes those other factors outweigh the impact of your abilities) 08:01 What types of things do you program if I may pry? I'm waiting for this perl debugger to do something so! 08:01 tubs: I don't really program anything other than fh 08:01 atm 08:01 Well, I write NetHack code elsewhere too 08:01 But not non-NetHack stuff 08:02 Basically, I focus on something I like 08:02 FIQ: just ask yourself 'could K2 do a better job than this?' and if the answer is NO, you're ok 08:02 the answer should always be NO 08:02 And write basically nothing else for months 08:02 Then I burn out 08:02 And do something else 08:02 Etc 08:03 K2: I like my raised bar to have a little bit of air between itself and the ground :-} 08:03 Other than FIQHack I've also written code for NetHack's Curses windowport, messed with Pokémon Crystal's battle engine in a romhack, and various other smaller things 08:04 I wish I could just program for fun, but I get my fill from work and find it hard to program at home. 08:04 <[Demo]> that sucks 08:04 <@kritixilithos> you should get introduced to code golf 08:05 bhaak :) 08:05 bhaak: haha 08:05 Well, I love my work which is good, but I do wish I could make a game or even just code up a new role or something for an existing variant, I start and never finish. 08:08 bhaak: FIQHack's mextra handling is probably the most insane code I've ever written. But I don't think I can improve it 08:08 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:09 tubs: have you heard of 7 day roguelikes? might be an interesting thing to try 08:09 aosdict: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-29 04:16 EDT: Pushed a fix to commandrepeat not working for getobj with dungeon features 08:09 Basically it ended up being a very rudimentary ECS 08:10 just to get a few optional fields for monsts/objects 08:10 ECS? 08:10 Entity component system 08:10 ah 08:10 has anyone else here ever had a daydream along the lines of this: wouldnt it be super cool if data from Star Trek TNG was real, came back in time, uploaded all of the netHack code into his positronic brain, 'thought' about it and half a second later produced a version that was 100% bug free? 08:11 i think about stuff like that 08:11 FIQ: was that before or after 3.6.0? have you looked how mextra changed there? 08:11 bhaak: It abuses C macros to the point of being hard to read 08:11 knowing Data he'd probably like to play it, too 08:11 FIQ: D-: 08:11 To minimize workload of adding further optional fields 08:11 K2: I'm not sure if Data's brain works like that. 08:11 It was technically after 3.6.0, but before I knew that 3.6.0 had its own similar thing 08:11 raisse: in that half second time span he would have ascnded every race and role 100000 times over 08:12 bhaak dont ruin my dream! 08:12 bhaak: I don't think it's that bad. Using it works fine, just don't try to look too closely at the code. No crazy hacks either I feel, just a bit hard to read 08:12 https://raw.githubusercontent.com/FredrIQ/fiqhack/4.3.0/libnethack/src/mextra.c if you want to look at it 08:13 [hdf-us] [4k] Tangles (Wiz Syl Fem Cha), 11445 points, T:1900, killed by a dwarvish spear 08:13 :/ 08:15 bhaak: FWIW I think FIQHack's version is better than 3.6.0's 08:15 3.6.0's might not abuse macros like FIQHack does, but it's not as straightforward to use or add new things to it 08:16 they consolidate all the extra data in one big struct 08:17 whereas 3.4.3 only had one extra struct 08:17 Both of them do that 08:17 finally, we can have dog priests! 08:17 But in 3.6.0 you need to be careful when checking extras for existing, and IIRC they're not as straightforward to create/destroy 08:17 also, to add a new 3.6.0 extra, you need to add several functions and modify several other ones 08:18 FIQHack has similar issues, but most of it is consolidated in a macro 08:18 bhaak: That said, both of them is leagues above the 3.4.3 system 08:18 which was just one big nasty hack 08:20 Progress!!! 08:20 they could have saved a lot of that by simply not doing it via pointers 08:20 We run '/usr/bin/g++ -Wl,-t -rdynamic -o /Users/mcw/nethack4/build/aimake/aimake_1.bin -L/usr/local/lib /Users/mcw/nethack4/build/aimake/aimake_1.o' 08:20 Which is supposed to print out the location of a bunch of the dynamic libraries, but it turns out clang now returns the tbd instead of the dylib, which is dumb 08:20 the macros in FIQhack look daunting, but the rest of the code doesn't seem bad 08:21 bhaak: It's the macros that I don't really like 08:21 But I don't think I can do it better without code duplication 08:21 which is what I wanted t oavoid 08:21 *to avoid 08:21 you could use code generation :) 08:21 makedefs? 08:22 yeah 08:23 makedefs is evil 08:23 and unportable 08:23 err, as in 08:23 it is a major hurdle towards cross-compilation 08:23 yeah, it is. 08:23 but you could Perl to generate code! 08:23 I've seen what perl can do first-hand 08:23 Please no 08:23 I don't want another aimake 08:23 there's already perl code in your project. a little more won't hurt ;-) 08:24 it's mostly there as a neccessary evil 08:24 because I have no other means of creating tiles build or Windows builds atm 08:25 -!- hothraxxa has joined #hardfought 08:25 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v hothraxxa] by ChanServ 08:28 FIQ: The linker crash is considered a problem. Specifically, it's considered a bug in the linker that needs to be fixed by Microsoft. 08:28 one of the many reasons I love this community. people like tubs can hop in here and get all the help and support he needs 08:28 <--- warm n fuzzy 08:28 jonadab: Yeah but this isn't going to hapen 08:28 *happen 08:29 Just need to massage ld into giving the proper paths again 08:29 Considering that *no other build system* has this problem, I'll blame aimake 08:29 tubs; you're on a mac correct? 08:29 tubs: Perl can be written in a very clear and easy to follow fashion. aimake just isn't, because the person who wrote it is too smart to write code other people can understand. (It's at least as bad when he writes C.) 08:29 it took me weeks to try to figure out how NH4's save system works 08:29 on an "API" level 08:30 Right, and that's C code, nothing to do with Perl at all. 08:30 I haven't even looked into the lowlevelmemfile handling 08:30 *lowlevel memfile 08:30 K2 yes. 08:30 jonadab the issue isn't actually aimake, it's clang/MacOS changing its behaviour 08:30 because the save system was doing weird things in my replay mode 08:30 tubs: If you can figure out what aimake should be doing differently to detect libraries on OS X, ais will probably fix it. 08:30 and kept whining about hash errors and things 08:30 [hdf-us] [4k] Tangles (Wiz Syl Fem Cha) entered the Minetown temple, on T:1552 08:31 But yes, I suspected it was due to changed behavior on the OS X side. 08:31 I still don't exactly know the details, but I think I know roughly what I have to do to work-around the save system 08:31 FIQ: you don't want to hear that during discussion of portable save/bones files, I got a strong vibe that they would do it with a perl script generating the code for load/save routines :-D 08:31 and make it happy 08:31 Because aimake used to work on OS X. 08:31 It runs the linker to find the absolute paths for the required system libraries, but ld changed so instead of giving paths to the .dylib, it gives paths to the .tbd 08:31 Ah. 08:31 Which is a *description* of the .dylib (they did this for cross-compilation so you didn't need the actual iOS libraries on your host machine). 08:31 bhaak: How about making the save system portable instead? 08:31 It can't be that hard 08:31 famous last words 08:31 Even NH4 has macros for oddball systems in the save system 08:31 !tell ais523 < tubs > It runs the linker to find the absolute paths for the required system libraries, but ld changed so instead of giving paths to the .dylib, it gives paths to the .tbd 08:31 Will do, jonadab! 08:32 to minimize potential hurdles 08:32 So I just need to write a script or mod aimake to parse the .tbd and extract the .dylib path 08:32 tubs: in a way that doesn't break aimake everywhere else 08:32 FIQ: That's easy, if the file you get back is a .tbd, do this, otherwise, keep going as you were. 08:32 aosdict: Yeah but even NitroHack made the save system portable 08:33 Without creating insane code in the process 08:33 Hopefully no other systems call their libraries .tbd 08:33 Sure, the save system itself was kind of broken 08:33 But the NH3-style save files it creates 08:33 is portable 08:34 (the issues with NitroHack's save system is completely unrelated to its portability, or lack thereof) 08:34 Less ambiguous to just call g++ --version and parse the target (apple-darwin) 08:34 tubs: Version sniffing in general isn't good practice and can break things horribly 08:34 just look at $TERM 08:35 ^ 08:35 or user agents 08:35 True, true, though it must already know it's on a mac because it knows it is looking for dylibs ahead of time 08:35 Oh, man, user agents. 08:35 So I don't even need to sniff anything 08:35 In my job I sniff what applications are running so I can change my driver's behaviour. :) 08:35 aimake generally knows the OS, yes. 08:35 It's like, reverse sniffing. 08:35 Although it can get some weird answers in corner cases. 08:36 IIRC aimake assumes it's on a mac on BSD 08:36 tubs: Then one application copies code from another and it doesn't work the same way. 08:36 And the programmers, if they ever figure out why, will lynch you. 08:36 oh man 08:37 THAT would be a fun bug to track down 08:37 maybe that's why tubs doesn't program at home, he creates evil code? :) 08:38 Oh absolutely, you could change behaviour of some games just by changing the executable filename... 08:38 Though over time we got cleverer and then changed the heuristics to measure what the apps were doing rather than what they said they were. 08:38 Not a good time! 08:38 reminds me of the "DRM" some applications have where they will look for "dangerous" programs by their executable file name 08:39 Well, we *were* doing it for good reasons. 08:39 Most game developers couldn't (and can't) write good GL/GLES code so we had to make it good for them. 08:39 no offense meant! 08:39 FIQ: giving that we right now have a fight about whether K&R breaking features are allowed or not, I wouldn't want to do either with K&R. fixed width integer types are IMO a must for that, otherwise you're just doing stupid programming tricks 08:40 bhaak: IMO, if K&R breaking features is allowed *at all* 08:40 the entire codebase should switch over to ANSI 08:40 and get rid of the FDECL/NDECL bs 08:41 and the other K&R quirks 08:41 bhaak: you said I was incorrect about guessing PatR's motivations for staying on K&R, but I never followed up on that; what *are* his motivations? 08:41 like the way it does function definitions 08:41 aosdict: what did you assume was his motivations? 08:42 that he wants to continue supporting all current supported compilers (not platforms, compilers) 08:42 Shame someone can't write a compiler from ANSI->K&R 08:42 did I ever link you his post in the nitrohack release usenet post? 08:42 I think so yes 08:42 that changed my view on him 08:43 whereas there are platforms that could continue to be supported with gcc but PatR wants to keep supporting all the compilers for those platforms 08:43 I assumed PatR was one of the people who would rather stay on K&R, but would reluctantly switch to ANSI if others wanted 08:43 that NitroHack post made me change my assumption that he was *very strongly* against ANSIfying 08:43 can you link it again? 08:43 *into that 08:44 sure, one moment 08:44 https://bilious.alt.org/rgrn/?124263,124265,124267-124273,124278-124323,124326-124329,124331-124348,124357,124358,124361,124362,124366-124368,124372,124377,124386,124388,124389,124391,124403-124405,124425,124426,124428,124429,124450,124473,124486,124487,124489,124491,124493,124499,124700 08:44 post #34 08:45 * aosdict confusedly remembers that "Patric Mueller" is bhaak and not PatR 08:45 heh 08:46 :) 08:46 jonadab: he didn't voice them directly. he just said "[My guess is nobody is still compiling NetHack with pre-ANSI compilers] but the intent is that it should still work. There may be a compelling reason to abandon old compilers someday, but this feature [local variables initialized with {0}] is certainly not it." 08:46 how about enums 08:47 are those a compelling reason 08:47 aosdict: Not IMO, tbh 08:47 given that they are already in, I'm not sure 08:47 or do we still not want to tell him that enums are ANSI so he doesn't revert them all 08:47 Enums can be emulated with #defines 08:47 The fact that NH3 has them is I think just an artifact of Pat not being *aware* of it being an ANSI-ism 08:47 You want compelling reasons? Try FDECL 08:48 aosdict: Honestly, define enum emulation is something I could live with 08:48 I think the reasoning is backwards anyway 08:48 It isn't nearly the thing I miss the most from ANSI 08:48 I mean, most of the compelling reasons to abandon old compilers are indeed code quality and readability improvements 08:48 don't try to please a fictional platform. if they exist, they will complain. 08:49 So, he is indeed trying to preserve support for all currently supported compilers. 08:49 bhaak: you highlighted the wrong person btw 08:50 same nick color and nick length so eh 08:50 oops 08:50 exactly 08:50 seriously that rgrn argument still makes me mad 08:50 for most purposes, aosdict and jonadab are exchangable anyway ;-) 08:50 bhaak: anyway, with that argument, if Pat was made aware that enums is an ANSI-ism, he'd almost certainly immediately revert them all 08:51 because enums alone is a very weak argument towards ANSIfying IMO 08:51 "how dare we *expunge* all these #define OBSOLETE_PLATFORM and special conditionals!" 08:52 bhaak: so we are aware of three people pushing for ANSIfying on the devteam: ais523, paxed, and yourself 08:52 So this works, but I'm not sure how I'm going to mush the shell substitution into aimake... awk '/install-name/ { print $2 }' $(g++ -Wl,-t -rdynamic -o /Users/mcw/nethack4/build/aimake/aimake_1.bin -L/usr/local/lib /Users/mcw/nethack4/build/aimake/aimake_1.o) 08:52 and one person strongly opposed 08:52 what are the rest of the devteams' thoughts? 08:52 bhaak: hmm, what if you asked him about his opinion if there happened to be an ANSI-ism in 3.6.0 that has been around for years without anyone ocmplaining? 08:52 *complaining 08:53 I think there is one case of this 08:53 that isn't enums 08:53 which is much more trivial 08:53 IIRC the way strings and newlines are handled 08:55 also, has he seen the public ANSI discussions 08:55 github PR, multiple reddit posts 08:55 of basically everyone being for 08:59 I can understand having pride in having an application that supports the systems of today and the legacy systems of the 80s. I don't really understand why anyone would want to support specific compilers, though, if it significantly hampers code quality 09:00 FIQ: heck, even in that rgrn post, basically nobody is agreeing with him 09:02 and those that are sort of hedging their disagreement... are only agreeing to the ideal of maintaining platform support 09:03 not compiler support 09:06 Also, I've never heard a counterargument to the fact that the devteam evidently regularly tells people that for best results on a given system, they should use an older version of nethack. 09:07 oh yeah, was going to bring that up, but forgot 09:07 this matter of fact is incompatible with Pat's view 09:09 dropping support for old systems _as of a given version_ is a perfectly normal event in software development 09:14 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased +3 atma weapon", on T:24270 09:16 FIQ: C is not evolving as fast as other languages. considering that, you will hardly find ANY new supported feature that is necessary to go forward. 09:17 FIQ, aosdict yeah, I will argue that without a compiler to test it on, we're just wasting time. nethack compiles with -std=c89 -Wpedantic and that we can verify 09:18 without to test it on, you mean? 09:19 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 09:19 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 09:20 I mean, 3.6.0 was already released with only providing binaries for a few selected OS 09:21 bhaak: But enums isn't nearly as much of a benefit as getting rid of a million ifdefs, or FDECL 09:21 FIQ: Right, enums should probably not be the hill to die on 09:22 FIQ: baby steps. giant leaps are only for those of us wearing jumping boots :) 09:22 bhaak: anyway, is there anyone else on the devteam on Pat's side? Or is it just him? 09:23 * aosdict notes that the devteam members arguing for ansi seem to be mostly the new arrivals 09:30 I don't remember other discussion about this but there might have been some before my time 09:31 right now, me, paxed and pat are the only ones that are discussing it. but it's been only 2 or 3 days 09:32 In the absence of any systems that are shown to require non-gcc compilers to run nethack on, I still have yet to see a good argument from PatR that isn't a traditional fallacy. 09:32 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:6247 09:41 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed Cerberus, on T:25303 09:43 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:25363 09:44 aosdict: Yes, " 09:44 aosdict: Yes, "Mueller" does not start with R. 09:45 but it ends with R! 09:45 heh 09:45 bhaak: aosdict is working from 3.6, and I'm working from NH4. *Those* are surely not interchangeable. 09:46 I keep running into spiderwebs because I think they're graffiti 09:46 raisse: I think cobwebs are only white, I ont think any other object will use white as a color with that glyph 09:46 *dont 09:47 i was doing same thing there for a bit ;) 09:48 jonadab: they are both not 3.4.3, what else matters? ;-D 09:48 "I want to read that!" web: *stick* spider: tee hee! 09:49 bhaak: But NH4 is _based on_ 3.4.3. 09:49 3.6.0 isn't. It branched at 3.4.0 09:54 raisse: Well, you can configure S_engraving and S_web to your liking. 09:55 symset? 09:55 if I find a suitable way to move golems off of ' I will probably make engravings ' by default. 09:55 jonadab: SYMBOLS=S_engraving:' 09:55 ^ if you wanted to force it to ' despite golem conflicts right now 09:56 jonadab: That is a very petty difference compared to the fact that NH4 is derived from the NitroHack codebase 09:56 The NH3->NH4 transistion is far bigger than 3.4.3->3.6.0 09:57 small g for golems 09:57 (Even taking into account that 3.6.0 is really based off the 3.4.0 codebase) 09:57 K2: and then stick the current residents of g into B? 09:57 that is what I've considered 09:57 hmm 09:57 -!- tubs has quit [Quit: *poof*] 09:57 or just leave gargoyles where they're at... hmm 09:57 or 09:58 jonadab: I mean, at least I always refer to "NH3 derivatives" and "NH4 derivatives" as 2 seperate groups 09:58 what other special characters can nh3 render? 09:58 someone else suggested move gnomes into h 09:58 and golems to G 09:58 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 09:58 (DynaHack being this weird in-between, but closer to NH4) 09:58 I think there may be too many conflicts though? Dwarf lord/gnome lord, dwarf king/gnome king. 09:58 aosdict that actually makes more sense to me 09:58 just adjust the colors 09:59 aosdict: Make dwarves d, canines c :-) 09:59 you already have for other monsters 09:59 like I did in my racial monster overhaul doc 09:59 Bah, fails further on anyway, something to do with stub headers, I don't know if I have the capacity in both skill and need to fix this :( 09:59 K2: Yes, but each change increases the chance that I get killed by angry players. 09:59 what about cockatrices then? 09:59 FIQ: your suggestion, coming from the person who wants variant conformity with branch stairs 09:59 raisse: B 09:59 * raisse swings her cockatrice corpse at aosdict! 09:59 * K2 shakes his head 09:59 Hmm, when I see B I think flight. 10:00 K2: It wasn't a serious suggestion 10:00 Which works, for g-type monsters. 10:00 oh 10:00 cockatrices *are* part birds. 10:00 ka-ka! 10:00 I did have this proposal 10:00 Yes, but they don't fly. Neither do owlbears. 10:00 not sure about pyrolisks 10:00 But I think there is better ways to go about this now 10:00 Mind flayers are part dwarf! 10:00 Because moving trice off c, or dogs of d 10:00 are owlbears bears with wings? or owls who shit in the woods? 10:00 would confuse *everyone* 10:01 bears with feathers 10:01 FIQ: right 10:01 *off 10:01 aosdict: Make dwarves K. Remove Kops 10:01 Make shopkeepers call in the Yendorian Army 10:01 I want to make sea monsters K though... 10:01 dont change dorfs 10:01 Kops are too much fun! 10:02 aosdict: Make them s 10:02 Spiders move to a 10:02 arthropod 10:02 FIQ: too much conflict on a if that happens 10:02 There is enough colors 10:02 but you can make Kops blue @, no problem 10:02 also you would have to change S_ANT to S_ARTHROPOD everywhere 10:02 spiders aren't insects! 10:02 aosdict: I think there is obsolete S_foo already... 10:02 Not sure if it matters 10:02 But you could just use sed 10:03 if you considered it a problem 10:03 neither are scorpions 10:03 but centipedes are 10:03 raisse: They're all arthropods 10:03 Actually, if we were going for consistency that capital letters should represent the more intelligent monster-type of that letter, then *kobolds* should be K. 10:03 Which is also a 10:04 aosdict: If you don't want to do the s->a move 10:04 you could also make sea monsters zeamonsters 10:04 FIQ: But, NitroHack was based on 3.4.3! 10:04 I don't think anyone will notice if you remove zruties 10:05 What even are zruties, anywat. 10:05 anyway* 10:05 No idea 10:05 Probably something Rogue invented 10:05 to have something for z 10:05 "wild and gigantic beings" well that's helpful, encyclopedia 10:05 No idea why they didn't go with zombies 10:05 lol, half of picture search for zruty gives nethack screenshots 10:06 raisse: Oh, so NetHack invented it 10:06 Clearly 10:06 and top links of web search are nethackwiki and wikihack 10:06 aosdict: even for a neutral search? 10:06 non-biased, that is 10:06 towards your history 10:07 this is duckduckgo, it should be fairly neutral 10:07 Rogue had Z zombies, apparently. 10:07 7th link on duckduckgo is the first that isn't nethack or someone's username 10:07 Ah, duckduckgo 10:08 it's a video in polish 10:08 So yeah, neutral 10:08 aosdict: Oh, huh, I thought zruties originated from Rogue 10:08 Oh, and there's that "nethack from aaaa to zruty" let's play 10:08 (Not literally, but NetHack-wise that is) 10:09 'zruty jeleni' in Polish seems to mean 'discarded deer antlers' 10:09 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:9286 10:09 aosdict: try to google zruty -nethack 10:09 that should exclude all results that have nethack in them 10:10 now it's just usernames 10:10 also, the wikipedia article on truth 10:10 https://www.google.se/search?biw=853&bih=619&ei=1PO8WsyvNMTp6AS-hIyQAw&q=-nethack&oq=-nethack&gs_l=psy-ab.3...2620.2620.0.2821.1.1.0.0.0.0.34.34.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.w8PjNLgGK8A 10:10 this is a nice search 10:10 * aosdict does not use google whatsoever 10:10 intentionally 10:11 (it matches nothing) 10:11 aosdict: You can't avoid google 10:11 Analytics 10:11 I got the Dutch google even though it's got .se in the URL 10:11 which is one of the reasons that I try to avoid google as much as possible, I hate being second-guessed 10:12 raisse: Yeah, absolutely nobody in the English-speaking world knows what a zruty is or what it looks like. 10:12 FIQ: noscript (set up to block google domains), privacy badger (ditto), ublock origin 10:12 it looks like this: z 10:12 Wikipedia has like a one-paragraph article on it that mostly tells you the linguistic background, nothing about the critter itself. 10:12 The encyclopedia entry also refers to the Tatra Mountains, which are indeed in Poland. 10:12 ... acxtually, not anymore. 10:13 Wikipedia now redirects it to the article on D&D giants. Which does not mention the word "zruty" 10:13 jonadab: even better! 10:13 (H is one of several mlets that I previously suggested zruty could go into, when I was trying to clear up the single-monster mlets.) 10:14 Ok, z for ; is a pretty good move then. 10:14 jonadab: apparently the old page was deleted 10:14 This frees up K for dwarves. 10:14 because the edit history only has the redirect 10:14 FIQ: It was probably non-notable. 10:14 As a Google search can quickly tell you, the amount of written material in English featuring the word "zruty" is extremely limited. 10:15 Which means gnomes could take their place in h, and golems could go into G... but that's still shuffling around three large monster classes (not counting the sea monsters), and I'm not sure I want to do that. 10:15 aosdict: what if everyone else also did it 10:15 (It would also fix minesflayers, via the random h becoming a random K.) 10:15 aosdict: I'm not comfortable with gnomes in h. 10:15 FIQ: not happening. 10:16 vanilla is certainly not going to. 10:16 Wait, we are moving gnoems to h? 10:16 Why? 10:16 FIQ: for G golems? 10:16 Golems should be g 10:16 Golem is a crowsed mlet; it cannot comfortably absorb the three existing g. 10:17 Gremlin can move to i 10:17 Gargoyles can remain on g 10:17 Gremlins could be impish, I guess. 10:17 But that still leaves two kinds of gargoyles. 10:17 Is that too crowded for you? 10:17 Gargoyles aren't even living 10:17 Well, what would the colors be? 10:18 They are constructs, similar to golems 10:18 Thematically, I can see that gargoyles would fit with golems. 10:18 They're breathless, but not nonliving. 10:18 Winged gargoyle can keep purple g 10:18 No golem is purple 10:18 Unsure with the regular ones 10:18 aosdict: They're a pile of inanimate matter held together and collectively animated by magic. 10:19 jonadab: we are talking about gargoyles right 10:19 yes 10:19 aosdict: Oh, gargoyles. 10:19 I was thinking golems, sorry. 10:19 ah 10:19 but gargoyles aren't organic 10:19 Right, gargoyles are probably living, in NetHack. 10:19 But yes, inorganic. 10:19 they're living stone 10:20 Definitely not mindless like golems. 10:20 What if we merge stone golem into gargoyle? 10:20 Too much of a stretch? 10:20 not sure I like that 10:20 Not entirely sure I do either. 10:20 golems are magical constructs, gargoyles are living, just not organic 10:21 Hang on, let me try to list the colors. 10:21 in ADOM gargoyles leave a pile of rocks on death 10:21 IIRC 10:21 only NetHack RL-wise seem to treat them just as any other living creature 10:21 they even lay eggs 10:21 for some bizarre reason 10:22 jonadab: My color uncolliding for golems is as follows, for your reference: straw golems bright blue, rope golems black, glass golems bright cyan. 10:22 (DCSS gargoyles are also treated as non-organic, and a god forbids them from worshipping him due being neither living or undead) 10:23 aosdict: Why bright blue for straw? Is it because they're currently a duplicate? 10:23 bright cyan for glass golem 10:23 I like it 10:23 I think I might steal that 10:24 Bright cyan for glass makes sense, yes. 10:24 Compare crystal ball. 10:24 jonadab: Could be blue or bright blue. The idea is they are basically overall-wearing scarecrows. 10:24 also 10:24 glass piercers 10:24 should also be bright cyan 10:24 for consistency 10:24 I could live with that, FIQ 10:24 (What are glass piercers now? White?) 10:24 yes 10:25 Yeah, bright cyan is better for them. 10:25 Although, wait, aren't iron golems non-bright cyan? 10:25 however, a counterpoint 10:25 That's probalby _why_ they were made white. 10:25 Because t isn't that crowded. 10:25 Or, err, p in vanilla. 10:25 there is predecent 10:25 for the current colors 10:25 jonadab: Yes, because regular cyan is CLR_IRON. 10:25 there isn't really a collision problem here 10:25 is changing it for consistency worth it 10:26 aosdict: CLR_IRON? Didn't know that was a thing. Thought it was HI_METAL 10:26 I think that is waht aosdict meant 10:26 *what 10:26 yes 10:26 Ah, ok. 10:26 are lenses made of glass? 10:26 Probably? 10:27 lenses have HI_GLASS 10:27 Logically they should be glass and metal, but NetHack doesn't have multi-material objects. A useful simplification. 10:27 the reason I asked 10:27 Yes, for things like you can throw them at a wall and break them. 10:27 is that glass will shatter in a thousand pieces when thrown 10:27 and lenses doesn't really do that... 10:27 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) became the Envoy of Balance, on T:27360 10:27 Wait, they don't? 10:27 People throw lenses? 10:28 What material are they made of? 10:28 Yes they do shatter. 10:28 aosdict: NH lenses isn't literal lenses, but glasses 10:28 I thought? 10:28 FIQ: They're specs, yes. 10:28 yeah 10:28 Well, for an anachronistic time period like nethack's it seems like lenses would be made of glass, not plastic. 10:28 The term "glasses" has a very modern feel, which is why NetHack doesn't use it. 10:28 throwing them is obviously a bad idea 10:29 I mean, we have T-shirts and credit cards, but 10:29 since they might get damage 10:29 d 10:29 but they don't *shatter* 10:29 jonadab: NetHack *has* plastic 10:29 Markers 10:29 Credit cards are also plastic, yes. 10:30 Nonetheless, some of the wording in NetHack is clearly chosen for medieval feel. 10:30 And "lenses" is an example of that. 10:30 right 10:33 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:35 If gremlins went to i, what color would they be? 10:36 underlined green ;) 10:36 black 10:38 Should monsters that lack eyes be unaffected by invisibility? 10:39 Ugh, there seems to be no easy way to get a deterministic random monster. 10:39 FIQ: Monsters that lack eyes should be unaffected by some forms of blindness, notably raven claws. 10:39 But unless they are blind or telepathic or see invisible or some other way to sense invisible beings, invisibility should probably work against them. 10:40 I guess I can pick a random number between LOW_PM and SPECIAL_PM 10:40 jonadab: When you are polymorphed into something with no eyes, you're bliond 10:40 *blind 10:40 Hmm. Should things with no eyes then not be able to see the player? 10:41 I figured they used other means to get to the player. But they shouldn't be affected by invis if they're blind 10:41 In that case, the player should be able, when polymorphed, to use those "other means" to sense monsters. 10:42 IMO. 10:42 Indeed 10:42 jonadab: I was thinking to just show things not sensed with telepathy or warning a fuzzed red I 10:42 as in "you know there is something there nearby" 10:42 Maybe different monsters could have different things. Some could have innate warning, perhaps? 10:43 Ah, that also makes sense. 10:49 Was this a terrible wish? I have no idea what's good in dNethack, part of the fun :3 10:50 ask [Demo] 10:51 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) genocided class L, on T:41365 10:53 aosdict: you should make L ungenocideable 10:53 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed Axus, on T:29071 10:55 Or just not blessed-genocidable? 10:58 Team ant. Boo. 10:59 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 10:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 11:00 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) destroyed the Arsenal, on T:29469 11:01 YASI: ants can neither be genocided nor extincted. 11:03 There should be an ant hole on some levels that continuously spawns ants unless you block it off with a boulder! 11:03 That'll teach those scummy adventurers. 11:04 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed Oona, on T:29761 11:05 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:11696 11:09 K2: i gots the redundant internet 11:09 main thing is you need a router that does that sort of thing 11:11 yup 11:11 looking at ubiquity 11:11 dual wan 11:13 yeah the little ubiquiti usg works great 11:13 also nice community 11:14 note you'll need a controller, so either run it on a vm locally or get their little "key" device 11:14 alternately you can do this on an untangle.com installation, which is what I'm doing now 11:15 but I also like the unifi stuff (my wifi APs are unifi) 11:30 two weeks ago i bought a keyboard for 170 euro and now i want to get a different one 11:30 because the other one is cooler 11:30 what do 11:31 raise 170 euro 11:31 how is up to you 11:32 any red light districts nearby? 11:32 well i have the moneys 11:32 it just feels like a waste to have 2 keyboards in the 100+ euro range 11:32 and not using one of them 11:33 sell it on ebay 11:33 don't have an ebay 11:37 do a raffle 11:37 give it to a needy nethack player 11:48 stenno: I think it might be time to get an ebay 11:48 although expect that re-sale price on near-new hardware is probably only 50-75% of new on something like that 11:49 you'd want to emphasize near new status, better if you can sell in original packaging, etc. Take good pics.... 11:50 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:50 really depends on secondary market for particular types of items, but I'd think a very high end keyboard might have a resale market 11:50 FIQ: why don't *you* make L ungenocideable? Unless you did already. 11:53 yeah its still mint condition 11:53 and i have the OP still 11:54 L only genocidable if castle generates in-depth Ls pls kthx 11:54 thats the same problem because its mkclass from .des file 11:55 aosdict: He wants some _other_ developer to get lynched for it first. 11:55 dtype this is what I am looking at for a dual WAN solution 11:55 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078PGCGN2/ 11:56 Aren't there variants where blessed genocide doesn't exist? 11:56 does failover and load balancing 11:56 tubs: yes, unnethack 11:56 is the one I know of 11:56 but there you could still geno arch-lich 11:56 there, blessed-geno is like uncursed geno in vanilla 11:56 the failover network connection would be through a shitty DSL line, but it's better than nothing 11:56 K2: yeah edgerouter is their line that doesn't do unifi management, and has a cli more like a normal router 11:57 pretty good nerf imo 11:57 YOu can geno all four kinds of L in Un, it just takes four scrolls. 11:57 (And anyway, you really only care about the purple ones, master and arch.) 11:57 K2: is a vyos fork. so the fancier stuff is all cisco-style management 11:57 but there is a UI where you can get much stuff done 11:58 K2: the ER4 is also new hardware, so is the latest and greatest. Just came out a few months ago 11:58 dtype: i also want to install a cell signal booster in the house. using internet and a microcell to have cell service is starting to wear thin (internet goes out, so does my cell service unless I climb on the roof) 11:59 dtype: yes ;) 11:59 Yeah allow genociding Arch-Lich but give Lich's 50% chance of having pots of gain level \o> 11:59 * K2 likes new stuff 11:59 won't they die as they grow up? 11:59 the new form having been genocided? 11:59 so over the next few days, if all the snow melts off my roof, i'm going to do some signal testing 11:59 K2: I happen to have an ER3 sitting in my garage. Is my backup router in case disaster happens and I needs to gets internet. 11:59 nice 12:00 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00 i was initially looking at the ER3 and then found the ER4 12:01 Yes, they would, curses. 12:01 no, tty 12:02 K2: Just run fibre-optic cables and establish peering with all the major tier-2 networks in North America. Problem solved. 12:02 I think it's more a case of "tubs points at raisse, then curses" 12:03 *you hear a mumbled curse* 12:03 What do you want to read? n It reads: "Grade AAA - Finest Master Mind Flayer". 12:04 \o/ 12:05 jonadab: ok 12:05 I'm taking donations now... 12:05 as in 6 figure donations 12:05 0 0 0 0 0 0 12:05 Six figures just for you! 12:05 * aosdict donates two cents. My two cents says: it's a stupid idea. 12:05 :) 12:06 thanks tubs! 12:06 but 12:06 can we change some of those zeros to something else 12:06 <@riker> noo 12:06 like 8's or 9's 12:06 K2: I have amazon pay mostly figured out. ;) https://dev.dmon.io/pricing 12:06 0 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 8 12:06 you are evil 12:06 <@riker> ouch aosdict lol 12:06 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of charging", on T:15265 12:06 it's even 8 figures! 12:06 dtype \o/ 12:07 dmon did its job last night when i lost interwebz for about 30 min 12:07 * aosdict wonders if any teenagers who are earning money in the thousands are bragging to their friends about their six-figure salary 12:07 hah 12:07 Teenagers earn money? Since when??? 12:07 hey 12:07 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 12:08 i worked three jobs during the summer months in high school 12:08 <@riker> aosditc: I guarentee you somebody has tried 12:08 <@riker> "I make six figures per year" 12:08 of course that was when minimum wage was $3.35/hr 12:08 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:08 spent it on beer and guitar stuff 12:08 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed +3 fireproof boots of speed", on T:15268 12:09 i think there are some rich kids related to social networks 12:09 like that dude 12:09 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) made her first artifact wish - "blessed +3 Grayswandir", on T:15273 12:09 heh 12:09 can't rememeber actual names 12:09 ricegum 12:09 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed +3 fireproof helm of telepathy", on T:15274 12:10 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed +3 fireproof gauntlets of power", on T:15277 12:10 My first job was £2/hour as a labourer, fun times. :) 12:10 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed amulet of life saving", on T:15328 12:13 If we get to count the figures after the decimal, I could claim a seven-figure income. 12:14 :) 12:14 K2: ah cool that dmon workie. Yeah it should be quite functional for what it currently does 12:14 i still don't have it sending SMS yet though 12:14 But the real bragging point is, how many figures does your _federal tax refund_ have? 12:15 jonadab: well refund just means you did withholding wrong. ;) 12:15 I mean, it's late march here... 12:16 although if some people need the IRS as their savings plan, whatever. Not likely those folks were going to make massive money off the withheld stuff anyway. heh 12:17 [hdf-us] [dnh] rikersan (Nob Hum Mal Neu), 351 points, T:545, killed by an exploding rune 12:17 <@riker> I wonder what book that was >_> 12:21 [hdf-us] [dnh] rikersan (Hea Swn Fem Neu), 681 points, T:1202, killed by a dwarf 12:27 dtype: It's more an issue of convenience, for most folks. 12:27 The winter months are generally the most fiscally hard for a lot of people. 12:28 You've got leftover holiday bills, and on top of that you stack all your medical deductables and stuff for the year. 12:28 Getting to April and needing to cough up a couple hundred bucks to the government would be like adding insult to injury. 12:28 actually i'm not one that berates folks for over-withholding. Yeah it is *better* if you just save that money yourself rather than let IRS do it for you, but if that is the method that works. Whatevs. 12:29 over-withholding probably forces some people to save because of a perceived smaller paycheck 12:29 If you're in the kind of income bracket where we're talking about tens of thousands of dollars, you're obviously going to hold onto as much as you can so you can invest and earn interest on it. 12:29 and I'm ok with that 12:29 But for most folks, the amount of interest involved would be pennies. 12:29 still *better* if you figure out how to save it yourself. Also a bit of a teaching tool. 12:29 Sure. 12:29 but out of sight out of mind also works better for many folks (most) 12:30 I actually do both, though, over-withhold a bit, and also put money aside into savings (almost) every month. 12:30 But I think I am atypical. 12:42 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 12:42 -!- tubs has quit [Quit: *poof*] 12:47 jonadab I do the same 12:47 claim 0 on every w-2 12:48 and all of my drill pay goes into a roth ira 12:49 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 12:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 12:49 0 on the w-4 you mean. 12:49 Yeah. 12:50 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 12:50 sorry w-4 12:50 yes :) 12:51 4 before 2 12:51 except after Q 12:51 because purple 12:51 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 12:51 K2: have you been reading calvin and hobbes 12:51 not lately 12:51 but i have :P 12:53 "The score is still Q to 12?" 12:53 That was unpleasant. 12:54 -!- MisteryMyra has joined #hardfought 12:57 -!- MiseryMyra has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:59 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) polymorphed her first object, on T:24297 13:00 ooh, I like it that you have an eerie feeling on a bones level 13:03 -!- MiseryMyra has joined #hardfought 13:05 -!- MisteryMyra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:23 <@Winsalot> Whould being more skilled in clerical spells improve my protection spell in fh? 13:25 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:26 <@mtf> @Winsalot yup 13:26 <@Winsalot> in what way? 13:26 <@mtf> makes it easier to cast 13:26 <@mtf> makes it easier to maintain 13:26 <@mtf> I don't think it gives any extra protection though 13:38 You were wearing a blessed +0 robe. Poes bites it. It misses Poes. 13:39 -!- _catalys1_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:42 why don't shopkeepers flee from scrolls of scare monster any more? pets still do 13:43 because they want you to pick up that 100zm scroll 13:43 hothraxxa: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2018-03-29 02:11 EDT: thanks for the oracle consultation idea! https://github.com/SLASHEM-Extended/SLASHEM-Extended/commit/4e76cab400d5222a3bddfec0aebefc83885e00a5 ♥ 13:43 hothraxxa: I did, but only because it was blessed so I knew it was safe 13:43 and then I knew what it was because it became uncursed 13:44 priesthood is useful! 13:44 you must be a priestling 13:44 yeah 13:44 ah type too slow 13:44 * raisse goes to church now (not because of being a priestess, but for choir practice) 13:44 :) 13:44 so you can sing when people ascend 13:46 !tell LarienTelrunya cool, i am immortalized in your comments now! 13:46 Will do, hothraxxa! 13:48 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:49 -!- emar has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.0-dev] 13:53 -!- mpt| has joined #hardfought 13:56 <[Demo]> God I need to do taxes soon fuck 13:58 bleh 13:58 [Demo] was the lance I wished for earlier a terrible choice? 13:58 Someone said to ask you. 14:01 -!- tubs has quit [Quit: *poof*] 14:04 <[Demo]> are you playing dnh? 14:05 <[Demo]> can't find it on backscroll on phone and really am not trying that hard lol shit I'll look again 14:06 i think he was [Demo] 14:07 <[Demo]> Oh yeah bad wish 14:07 <[Demo]> it's a spear to begin with 14:07 <[Demo]> and you gotta wield it to get the good results 14:08 <[Demo]> and dnh artiwishes are independent of artifacts generated so you wanna use them for lategame shit 14:09 <[Demo]> I'd probably have gone for gauntlets of spell power 14:10 <[Demo]> I'm not good at dnh by any means I'm just decent enough at abusing the op shit 14:12 why is it not a lance 14:12 if it's called *lance* of longinus 14:13 <[Demo]> cause then it would be op as fuck for knights 14:14 <[Demo]> Maybe not too bad idk 14:14 <[Demo]> lacks the double dmg ud want but still.. 14:16 <[Demo]> it just grants so much great shit when wielded 14:18 <[Demo]> do nethack kobolds have spears or is it just slashem? 14:19 oh crap, just hit a levelport trap and went to Cyclops level in the healer quest 14:19 totally unprepared 14:22 run away! 14:22 trying 14:22 it ain't midnight K2 14:22 it doesn't help that I don't have a way of crossing water 14:23 <[Demo]> rest in peace 14:23 <[Demo]> I'm still not sure if I've ascended a healer 14:23 there we go 14:23 <[Demo]> nice 14:23 was that intentional? ;) 14:23 yeah, and he walloped me with the staff, and I changed back immediately 14:24 oof 14:24 aosdict: yes 14:24 if only you had had time to breathe 14:24 yes! 14:24 \o/ 14:24 luckily, I had another charge in the poly wand :) 14:25 wooohooo 14:42 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Medusa, on T:25713 14:48 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) performed his first genocide (class L), on T:25991 14:48 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) genocided class h, on T:25991 15:00 K2: pushed updates. Wanna read some tins? 15:00 :) 15:03 <[Demo]> did u get the one about amy's tears in there? 15:04 this is not slex 15:04 !who 15:04 K2: [hdf-us] Demo [fh] Leggman [nd] Kame [dnh] hothraxxa [xnh] 15:04 K2: [hdf-eu] elenmirie [xnh] 15:05 hothraxxa, elenmirie - care to save your xnh games real quick? going to patch 15:05 looks like this patch addresses some spell casting/power issues 15:05 done 15:05 done 15:06 ok on it 15:06 does it address some "I've only ever seen one floating eye in this game and it didn't leave a corpse" issues? 15:06 how about "there's not a single scroll of identify anywhere" issues? 15:07 how about the "i had to poly to get a sack" issue 15:07 or the ever popular "I need a bag" issues? 15:07 lol 15:07 compiling 15:07 also i have no mr and the castle had a master lich 15:07 eek 15:07 K2: has a buff and a sort of nerf 15:07 to spellcasting 15:08 the buff is strictly non-negative role bonuses, the nerf is your effective Int is capped at 20 15:08 xNetHack updated (us and eu) 15:08 play away 15:08 i actually got used to melee with purple Ls in my wizard game, which was genoless 15:08 thanks, K2 15:08 [hdf-us] [fh] nerfpurplegargoyle (Demo) (Kni Dwa Fem Law) killed the valkyrie of Valkeray, the former Fighter, on T:7004 15:09 aosdict what was the reasoning in capping effective int at 20? 15:10 in general, help those who need help getting spellcasting bonuses, while not allowing wizards to become totally overpowered with it 15:10 lol now my pw requirements for a couple spells i have are worse 15:10 a wizard wielding a matching wand could have up to 31 or 32 Int 15:10 you listen to FIQ too much - wizards are supposed to be the bad ass spellcasters 15:10 that's their thing 15:11 they are currently very broken in xnh right now on account of being too OP 15:11 as in, they break the role difficulty curve even more than before 15:11 by end game a wizard shouldnt have to melee 15:11 keep that in mind 15:11 No, which is why their Pw regen is so good. 15:12 but int cap at 20... why even bother with ahelm of brilliance then 15:12 you just invalidated it 15:13 and nerfed the priest quest item 15:19 helm of brilliance is still good for (a) non-gain-ability farmers (b) non-elves (c) people who want better Pw regen via higher Wisdom 15:19 Also, Int affects more things than spellcasting. 15:20 sure 15:21 but this puts lvl 5 and higher spells much farther out of reach 15:21 even for a wizard 15:24 -!- Tariru has joined #hardfought 15:29 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +5 water walking boots", on T:26335 15:30 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +5 helm of brilliance", on T:26339 15:30 damn no +5 on either of those 15:31 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +5 t-shirt", on T:26342 15:31 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) made her first wish - "2 blessed partly eaten historic scrolls of charging named nitecore", on T:26549 15:31 bah 15:31 damn you RNG 15:32 <[Demo]> whats the right way to get sdsm from dragons in fiqhack with cursed genocide? 15:32 <[Demo]> is there no right way? 15:32 small room, closed door 15:33 i mean they can't even open doors, dude 15:33 conflict helps 15:33 stand on scare monster 15:34 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) averted death, on T:21475 15:34 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) killed Croesus, on T:21478 15:34 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed magic marker", on T:26346 15:35 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed fixed magic marker", on T:26347 15:35 k2: i think aosdict nerfed wishing. i was conservative and only wished for two scrolls. i got one :( 15:35 i think aosdict just hates magic in general 15:35 yes. and healers 15:35 ooh YANI: a magicless version of nethack 15:37 I think that would be an entirely different sort of game. 15:38 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed historic greased fixed bag of holding named StuffMe", on T:26550 15:38 SkeptHack 15:39 <[Demo]> does riding skill do anything in fh? 15:41 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 15:42 [hdf-us] [nh4] NERF ME (Luxidream) (Ran Gno Fem Neu), 30710 points, T:2467, killed by a panther 15:43 <[Demo]> uh oh 15:43 [Demo]: same as vanilla 15:43 <[Demo]> sketchy rogue level 15:43 K2: just countering that this does not make HoB useless 15:43 <[Demo]> ok might not be megadeathbones 15:44 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 15:44 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 15:44 I can agree with that statement aosdict 15:44 for elf wiz, sure, it's not as good, but it still might be useful 15:44 its more like 'mostly useless' 15:44 dont nerf just to nerf please 15:45 it was not a nerf just to nerf 15:45 we have FIQhack covering down on that bit already 15:45 ;) 15:45 it was so that lower int casters would get more out of the magical power-ups than higher int casters 15:45 well... i have one now, i need to enchant it. we'll see how spellcasting goes 15:46 (monk with a robe) 15:46 aosdict: ok i can see that 15:46 but what about the higher lvl spell casting ability? 15:46 rather than a late game wiz getting even MORE powerful than they already are 15:47 for a non-wizard, having an int cap at 20 is massive 15:47 let me provide a scenario without this cap 15:49 elf wiz, 18 int, no interfering armor, wanting to cast finger of death at XL1. the chance of success is 50% (role) + 95% (int and XL) + 20% (Basic) - 175% (level 7) = 90% success, meaning the 35 Pw is inflated by a factor of 10/9, to 39. 15:50 that's castable, like, whenever you can get your Pw up to higher than 35. 15:50 well thats wrong already 15:50 a lvl one wizard shouldnt be able to cast a lvl 7 spell at all 15:51 even if they get lucky and find a pile of blessed potions of gain energy on dlvl 1 15:52 Wait, no, that puts them at -10% success, since we start at 0%. 15:52 ok 15:53 But if you have the starting quarterstaff, that adds 25%, so now you're at 15% and can only go up from there. 15:53 Since this is a starting character. 15:53 knowing that a wizard will ditch that quarterstaff first change they get 15:53 chance 15:54 not true in xnh, since it boosts the spellcasting so well 15:54 but magicbane 15:54 ditching the staff is for 3.4.3 daggerstorming 15:54 i ditched it during my xnh wiz ascension 15:54 dlvl 3 i think 15:55 K2: when did I nerf just to nerf 15:55 FIQ I was joking 15:55 * hothraxxa munches popcorn 15:55 i put a smiley face and everything 15:56 it was fierce looking smiley 15:56 grrr aaarrgh 15:56 :) 15:56 like that? 15:56 or like ;) 15:56 or maybe >;) 15:56 :< 15:57 aosdict: you could do what FIQ did, and change magicbane to be a quarterstaff 15:57 then we could all get our gandalf on in nh3 15:58 I'm not making an artifact change unless I really feel something's broken; magicbane is not currently broken 15:58 when i play wizard no matter what variant, i switch to dagger as soon as i get one 15:58 ^^ that 15:59 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 15:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 15:59 i will say that my orc wizard wielded a spellbook of magic missile for a while during the ascension run because amulet 16:00 aosdict: I nitpick on these things because I LIKE what you're doing overall. this is a fun variant and I'd like to see it succeed (I think it already will at this point). so if i'm giving you a hard time, it's because I give a shit 16:00 hothraxxa does it because he's old 16:00 anyway, as long as magicbane blocks curses, it's what i wield 16:01 when i remember 16:01 heh 16:01 imagine being old and sitting on your front porch yelling at kids to get off your lawn. but you're a lvl 21 wizard from nethack 16:02 'give off my damn grass! *zap* **poof**' 16:02 hey i was level 30 16:02 *get 16:02 i had a great time on a level with three incubi and a nurse 16:02 hmm 16:02 i ganed something like 12 levels 16:03 having an incubi beat you up while a nurse is hitting you is exquisite 16:03 i gained a gazillion hp 16:03 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) entered Gehennom, on T:26449 16:04 K2: The problem is that I want to make the game better balanced, and in a lot of these cases better balance does entail a nerf. So a second balance has to be struck between fixing game balance issues, while also not making the game unfun or boring. 16:04 what are the odds of having that combo 16:05 well the foocubi are easy. i had two sinks and i lured another one down from the level above 16:05 the nurse just turned up 16:05 aosdict: ok. but this recent changes isnt balancing wizards, its putting all classes on a lower playing field spell wise 16:06 int cap isnt the answer imo 16:06 <[Demo]> i like what slashem does 16:06 <[Demo]> special wizard techniques 16:09 aosdict: and I apologize that I dont have a solution to offer. I dont like complaining about a change I dont like and not having something to offer in return 16:10 <[Demo]> i really like complaining 16:10 fact 16:16 It reads: "This tin is NOT booby-trapped". 16:16 heh 16:17 K2: I like how nobody is talking about the associated spellcasting buff 16:18 priests/wizards/monks/healers just got 40-50 bonus percentage points 16:18 human nature. we only talk about (at length) the things we dont like 16:18 oh really? 16:18 wait, so what do those roles start with for power? 16:19 for comparison, that is like giving wizards an extra 10 Int :P 16:19 hah 16:19 thats a big deal for all those classes 16:20 I have not changed initial power generation rules 16:20 early game survivability just went up a notch or two 16:20 I intend to 16:20 K2: it's not just those four, every role except Bar gets something, though those are the highest 16:20 ah 16:21 <[Demo]> remove wizards 16:24 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Pri Hum Fem Cha) killed Croesus, on T:21621 16:28 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:28 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:28 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 16:30 this makes me happy: 16:30 The vampire bat bites the chickatrice. The vampire bat turns to stone! The lapidifying vampire bat drops to the floor! 16:30 A vampire rises from the floor with renewed agility! The vampire bites the chickatrice. The vampire turns to stone! 16:30 <--- wearing a ring of conflict in the VotD 16:31 Where did it get the renewed agility? 16:31 i've seen this message about 5 times now 16:31 Oh, polyself, right. 16:31 in 3.6.x vampires can start as bats, wolves or fog clouds 16:31 yup 16:31 there's a ring for that 16:31 i'm just hanging back, letting conflict take its course 16:31 I thought that only worked if the new form was acidic or otherwise stoning resistant. 16:32 perhaps this is a vanilla bug 16:32 but its funny as hell 16:32 the vampire keeps trying to bite the chickatrice 16:36 You are blasted by the orcish dagger named Grimtooth's power! 16:36 *facepalm* 16:46 The artifact plast should probably formally ID the artifact before printing the message. 16:47 aosdict 16:47 i cant dip anything into a pool of water i am standing on (water walking boots) 16:48 oh wait nm 16:48 oil doesnt dilute in xnh 16:48 i didnt receive any kind of message either way 16:48 ok minor crisis averted 16:49 jonadab: i had already formally id'ed grimtooth 16:49 and i see you incorporated another fix FIQ had for getobj, earlier issue seems to be addressed 16:49 oh wait no i hadn't 16:49 nm 16:50 https://github.com/copperwater/xNetHack/commit/43773c41807216c2049903e018583870ea50618e 16:51 hahahah that's me! :P 16:51 hah, I should read "I can't dip anything into a pool of water" very carefully 16:51 it should be read as "I tried to dip something into a pool of water and couldn't, heeeelp!" 16:51 heh 16:52 s/something/one thing/ 16:53 ok off to get the kid, see you soon 16:54 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased +3 helm of brilliance", on T:45244 16:55 <[Demo]> goddamit fiq 16:55 <[Demo]> fucking asshole 16:55 <[Demo]> i want this priest to die 16:55 <[Demo]> bitch of a green dragon wont kill it 16:55 <[Demo]> even after i pissed it off 16:55 -!- Tariru_ has joined #hardfought 16:58 -!- Tariru has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:01 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) killed Lord Surtur, on T:24920 17:01 [hdf-us] [nd] Leggman (Val Hum Fem Law) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:24921 17:18 <@mtf> ughhh 17:18 <@mtf> blargh 17:18 <@mtf> I played this VR game GORN for like 2 hours 17:19 <@mtf> and now I feel so sick 17:19 <@mtf> It's the first game I've played that used handheld locomotion rather than just letting you teleport 17:19 * hothraxxa hits mtf with a blessed unicorn horn 17:19 <@mtf> and something about the world moving while you're not moving is just... ughhh 17:19 i hope you don't mind 17:19 <@mtf> no please hit me again 17:19 <@mtf> lol 17:20 * aosdict hits mtf with a cursed club 17:22 <@mtf> that's not helping aos 17:23 <@mtf> oh man it's so fun otherwise though 17:23 <@mtf> literally a gladiator game 17:23 <@mtf> with all the weps you could imagine, and realistic reactions by the enemies 17:23 <@mtf> so I'm slicing them to pieces, ripping their heads off, throwing the heads at other guys, smashing them with maces, etc 17:25 <[Demo]> !asc Demobot 17:25 [Demo]: Demobot has ascended 20 times in 381 games (5.25%): nh:20 (5.28%) 17:26 [hdf-us] [xnh] hothraxxa (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "uncursed lit fixed historic magic marker named frank miller", on T:27312 17:27 <@mtf> lol wtf 17:33 @mtf I think the first computer game I encountered that made people physically ill, was Descent. 17:34 <@mtf> lol yea? I've never had any problems with games on a monitor ever 17:34 My dad complained he got _dizzy_ playing it for more than a few minutes. 17:34 <@mtf> I am not someone to get motion sick easily 17:34 <@mtf> but this was... debilitating 17:43 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:43 FIQ: I'm rather disappointed in the ##roguelikedev channel. Is there a channel where people talk about gameplay design and not which javascript library is the best for a roguelike? 17:44 (On Discord, that is, not counting here and ##nethack-variants.) 17:47 @mtf same question 17:48 @mtf jonadab you'd love this human gyroscope then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVPaW98Z1FQ 17:50 [hdf-us] [xnh] bouquet (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) wished for "blessed spellbook of finger of death", on T:51152 17:57 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 17:57 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 18:02 K2: so if you don't like nerfing just to nerf, what's your take on this: (note, not planning on doing it at the moment) 18:03 blessed gain ability only increases 1 ability point, but you are given the choice of which, instead of raising all ability scores 18:04 and the motivation is so that the player can't easily max all their ability scores in the early midgame 18:04 and for exercise to continue to matter 18:09 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:43841 18:18 Grasshopper: Oh, dear. That would probably make me dizzy, I fear. 18:25 <@mtf> aos: I really don't know what to tell you... if you want to discuss gameplay design in ##roguelike-dev, be the change you want to see in the world 18:25 <@mtf> dont' complain about other people trying to determine how they want to create their roguelikes =/ 18:26 I'm not complaining about javascript being used for roguelikes. I'm not jonadab. 18:27 Just, the channel focus seems to be much more on implementation than on game design. 18:28 <@mtf> so start talking about game design? 18:28 <@mtf> literally the channel is about anything related to roguelike development 18:28 <@mtf> I have seen plenty of talk about both aspects 18:30 aosdict: thats actually slightly better than what unnethack (and i think sporkhack?) does. blessed !oGA only gives you one ability point at random. Same scenario but having a choice is not bad at all 18:30 Yes... but unnethack and spork are variants that are considered pretty nerf-heavy. 18:31 (Well, unnethack, at any rate. I'm extrapolating on spork based on what I know of it.) 18:31 sporkhack has more nerfs than any variant afaik 18:31 but it makes up with some cool stuff 18:31 same ith unnethack 18:31 *with 18:32 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 18:32 my personal opinion, sporkhack is the hardest of them all 18:32 i dont count slex, its just ridiculous 18:34 jonadab: LOVED descent 18:34 saw 2 kids puke playing it at a lan party once way way back 18:37 Descent was the game we played at the only off-campus LAN party I ever participated in. 18:37 After I graduated. 18:37 -!- tubs has joined #hardfought 18:38 Bonjour and hello. 18:38 aloha 18:38 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 18:47 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) bribed Baalzebub with 1540 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:45628 19:04 ritual spell YANI: use a piece of fruit to make it grow into a tree 19:06 2018-03-20 bwuh? how did I last update YANI lists *8* days ago? I feel like it just happened! 19:06 2018-03-29 bwuh? how did I last update YANI lists *9* days ago? I feel like it just happened! 19:19 aosdict: This is why the EPI list is fully automated. 19:19 I haven't touched it in months, but it was last updated yesterday. 19:25 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) genocided class h, on T:45945 19:27 jonadab: Yeah but quite often there's a lot of context beyond just the two or three surrounding lines 19:27 also I don't have a server which could serve them, nor the know-how to run it 19:29 also, my search terms are pretty widespread... I pick up a lot of stuff that isn't actually ideas, but I catch a lot of stuff that a strict on-topic search would miss. 19:31 I was starting to try to do it on github pages, but hadn't gotten too far 19:36 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:42 aosdict: Oh, I don't have a server either, it just runs off my desktop. 19:43 Which means it goes down occasionally. *shrug* 19:43 It's not exactly mission-critical-high-availability stuff. 19:43 @le?shadow gaze 19:43 shadow gaze ~1~ shadow gazer (e) | Lvl: 30 | Diff: 36 | Spd: 14 | Res: magic | Confers: nothing | MR: 95 | Generates: special | AC: -10 | Attacks: 4d5 gaze level drain, 9d7 bite stun, 11d9 hug magic missile | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, flies, amphibious, nopoly, infravisible 19:46 jonadab: that's server enough for what I'm talking about. 19:46 it serves webpages, has >90% uptime 19:52 [hdf-us] [dyn] Denial (Luxidream) (Pri Hum Mal Law), 1753 points, T:1967, killed by a snow ant 19:53 -!- ProzacElf has 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greased silver dragon scale mail", on T:786 20:39 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed Garland, on T:48235 20:39 K2: you have complained before about never finding reflection in sokoban. Have you ever tried wielding a mirror? 20:41 [hdf-us] [dnh] Kame (Tou Hum Fem Neu) destroyed Chaos, on T:48299 20:42 i'm aware of your mirror changes, but I never remember to use a mirror like that 20:42 goes against decades of nethack playing ;) 20:42 perhaps I should make it 100% reflection versus its current 50% 20:43 I think my reasoning was that a spellcaster might not be using that wield slot anyway and so would get cheap and easy reflection (esp wizards who do NOT need more buffs and have MR already) 20:47 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:48744 20:47 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:48745 20:48 i think 50% is fair for a simple mirror 20:49 as all other sources of true reflection are magical in nature 20:52 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 20:54 i thought shields of reflection were nonmagical 20:56 only in unnethack 20:57 ah! 20:57 vanilla and other variants, its magical 20:57 well, i'd dbl check with dnethack 20:57 i must've learned that in unnethack and not realized it was different from vanilla (since it makes more of a difference there) 20:57 oh and if true for unnethack, then most likely true for dynhack also 20:58 *dynahack 20:58 ah i see heh 20:58 so many variants to keep track of 20:58 i was specifically remembering un's nonmagical wish thing allowing shields of reflection 20:59 yeah 21:02 -!- jared55 has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:08 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12 -!- Tarmunora has joined #hardfought 21:28 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) genocided disenchanter, on T:49037 21:28 -!- tungtn has joined #hardfought 21:28 -!- Tariru_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36 -!- hpardis has joined #hardfought 21:37 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed amulet of reflection", on T:27823 21:52 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Master Kaen, on T:28325 21:52 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:28326 22:06 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 22:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 22:07 again... 22:07 aosdict: out of every game of xnh i've played and rubbed a blessed magic lamp, i have yet to receive a wish 22:07 0/7 by now 22:08 just tried, got wish, it's possible 22:08 are you positive you havent changed wish chance percentage with magic lamps in some way? 22:08 Positive. 22:08 my luck cant be that bad 22:08 The only change related to magic lamps is making them wishable. 22:09 something is up 22:10 compare vanilla potion.c:2273 with xnh potion.c:2452 22:10 identical code 22:14 i believe you 22:14 but maybe something else is affecting chance of wish 22:14 if i rub one more blessed magic lamp and not get a wish i am gonna lose it 22:15 :) 22:15 i am curious of elenmires and hothraxxas games 22:15 they've both ascended a few times ech already, curious as to their success/failure rate 22:16 *each 22:24 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 22:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 22:27 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28 [hdf-us] [nd] TheTourist (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 672 points, T:1597, poisoned by a rotted yellow mold corpse, while helpless 22:28 -!- mpt| has quit [] 22:29 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Juiblex, on T:29846 22:44 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:30063 22:44 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:30063 22:51 <@ahrimen> when it comes to forcing open a locked box, is there ever a time when i would select 'n'? Having the confirmation box feels redundant 22:55 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Baalzebub, on T:30437 22:59 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 22:59 [hdf-us] [xnh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Orcus, on T:30561 23:00 ugh, I'm hacking up a lung 23:00 can't sleep :/ 23:00 Let's play varianthack and see if it helps :( 23:00 :( 23:01 * K2 summons NCommander a young priest and an old priest 23:01 I've ascended the young priest 23:01 I'll be back in two years for the old one 23:01 ;) 23:06 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 23:13 [hdf-us] [xnh] NCommander (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 376 points, T:856, killed by a gnome lord 23:13 Yeah 23:13 That was expected 23:17 [hdf-us] [fh] ahrimen (Val Dwa Fem Law), 33122 points, T:2179, zombified by an orc zombie 23:20 [hdf-us] [nd] redshirt (Rog Orc Mal Cha) killed Orcus, on T:51051 23:47 -!- Blastin_in has joined #hardfought 23:47 -!- Blastin_in has left #hardfought 23:53 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed rustproof +2 Magicbane", on T:18135 23:54 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fireproof +2 pair of speed boots", on T:18136 23:55 [hdf-us] [un] ranlhach (Tou Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed Eyes of the Overworld", on T:18143