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(www.adiirc.com)] 06:19 aosdict: b73d45fd66270fcadc2832bc5af894689f92063b teehee 06:22 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed ring of levitation", on T:87102 06:22 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased +3 gray dragon scale mail", on T:87104 06:22 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of genocide", on T:87111 06:22 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of genocide", on T:87113 06:26 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 helm of telepathy", on T:87197 06:37 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Wiz Gno Mal Cha), 78762 points, T:34870, quit 06:58 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 07:08 [hdf-us] [gh] arnibald (Pri Hum Mal Neu) killed Asmodeus, on T:35260 07:29 [hdf-us] [gh] arnibald (Pri Hum Mal Neu) killed Juiblex, on T:35640 07:37 woo go arnibald 07:41 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:42 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 07:46 -!- Chris_ANG has joined #hardfought 07:47 [hdf-us] [4k] Jonadab (jonadab) (Val Hum Fem Neu) entered the Rogue tribute level, on T:14104 07:51 [hdf-us] [gh] arnibald (Pri Hum Mal Neu) killed the invisible Baalzebub, on T:36000 08:01 -!- hpardis has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:13 -!- Chris_ANG has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Rog Orc Mal Cha), 2517 points, T:3226, killed by a jaguar 08:21 FIQ: bwahahaha 08:21 guess I'm getting returning aklyses for free 08:25 aosdict: I was mostly amused because I recall our discussion 08:25 "they should work like polearms" 08:25 "why? they should work like Mjollnir" 08:25 PatR, apparently agrees 08:25 so... PatR is secretly listening in on this channel? 08:26 totally 08:26 or I am him 08:28 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Rog Hum Mal Cha), 669 points, T:1600, killed by a coyote, while reading a book 08:29 [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 11190 points, T:9257, killed by an air elemental 08:40 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law), 4213 points, T:4356, poisoned by a water moccasin 08:43 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Mon Hum Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (master mind flayer), on T:18541 08:48 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) performed the invocation, on T:99664 08:50 well, I doubt people will get too upset by an aklys bug 08:50 *buff 08:51 it's not like anyone used them beforehand 08:52 The aklys bug bites! 08:53 YANI ^ new hallumon 08:54 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Rog Hum Mal Cha), 1748 points, T:2275, killed by a giant spider 09:05 aosdict: Will there also be an astral call bug hallumon? 09:06 only on astral :-) 09:06 well, now there will be since you mentioned it right after 09:06 YASI: bobble hats as a hallumon 09:07 would be [ I suppose 09:07 like the killer food in some 1990s variant I played 09:07 would work better as a halluobj, but I think only grunthack has those 09:07 raisse: Slash'EM 09:08 no, never played that, it must have been nh-- 09:08 oh, one of the ancestors to Slash'EM 09:08 yep 09:08 I disliked it (in spite of the killer food) because there were far too many monsters that made you deathly sick 09:09 I think the only positive effect of that is that it makes summon insects more dangerous 09:09 the other effects are all bad 09:10 positive as in, summon insects ought to be more dangerous from a designer's perspective? 09:18 aosdict: right 09:18 especially on Astral 09:18 it's currently considered to be actively bad for the monster using it 09:23 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) entered the Planes, on T:102835 09:34 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Rog Hum Mal Cha), 1780 points, T:2537, killed by a water troll 09:36 [hdf-us] [gh] arnibald (Pri Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed magic marker", on T:36307 09:37 <@riker> !tell Chris_ANG hitting a known mimic with F seems to crash? 09:37 Will do, @riker! 09:38 <@riker> !tell Chris_ANG at least, hitting that one mimic in minetown deli crashed (on teh second hit, once it was revealed) 09:38 Will do, @riker! 09:51 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 231 points, T:963, killed by a boulder 09:53 Yes, Summon Insects is a spell that I would nuke from the game, if I didn't have other ideas for higher-level, more-dangerous insects. (But I do.) 09:55 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law), 21922014 points, T:104327, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/D/DemoBot/nh343/dumplog/1519973936.nh343.txt 09:59 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:59 I don't like summonstorming on important levels, so if I were to keep it I would make AI not use it on the Sanctum/Astral but add roaming Moloch priests to Gehennom or something so that it can still see some use 10:01 blegh. not sure how to structure "monster wants to open a door but can't" in m_move 10:02 probably the proper way is to remove the whole open-and-move-in-one-turn thing 10:02 unless they'd smash it down 10:04 Oh, speaking of doors, YANI/FR: if doors are going to sometimes resist being opened in one turn, opening a door should be an occupation. That way if there are no monsters around you can just hit o once; but if you're being attacked, it'll get interrupted so you can make a decision about what to actually do. 10:05 What should that print? "The door resists! The door resists! The door resists! The door opens." ? 10:06 "The door resists! [3 turns] The door opens." 10:06 hm would probably be easier to do in nh4 10:07 A lot of things are easier to do in NH4. The major exception is stuff that crosses the libnethack/nethack boundary. Like room colors, for instance. 10:13 Anyone know whether the "mmoved" variable in m_move necessarily denotes "this monster has already moved" or if it can mean "this monster is going to move"? 10:13 <@riker> !tell Chris_ANG you're aware of the "gems can be generated with an unneeded glass/stone" type, right? (i.e. "stone piece of worthless glass", "glass piece of worthless glass") 10:13 Will do, @riker! 10:14 Because it seems like the actual place_monster call relies on mmoved being set earlier in the function, and before that the monster has not actually moved. 10:14 aosdict: I much prefer nerfing the abilities themselves than the AI 10:15 as in, if AI use of something is too strong 10:15 nerf "something" 10:15 not the AI 10:15 FIQ: Yeah but I have a strong dislike of summonstorming on the Sanctum and Astral, but I do like summon insects in its own right. 10:16 !tell K2 pushed a fix to Cleaver [thanks paxed] 10:16 Will do, FIQ! 10:16 aosdict: so don't give the monsters in sanctum/astral that spell? 10:16 well yeah you can do that in _fiqhack_ 10:16 yeah but you can fake it 10:16 outside 10:17 the nearest vanilla implementation is not allowing them to cast that spell on the sanctum or astral 10:17 which amounts to telling the AI not to use it 10:17 make the "regular" temple-less aligned priests unable to cast it 10:19 ‎<‎jonadab‎>‎ A lot of things are easier to do in NH4. The major exception is stuff that crosses the libnethack/nethack boundary. Like room colors, for instance. ← those are also hard to do correctly in vanilla, though (although somewhat easier to do incorrectly) 10:20 ais523: Did you see my implementation of that for AceHack? 10:20 no 10:21 but I bet it didn't work in tiles mode 10:21 Oh, likely not. 10:21 (that said, I hardly got tiles working in AceHack in the first place) 10:21 still not sure if I should bother making a text "tileset" for the curses UI 10:21 https://github.com/tsadok/acehack/commit/25d77f6f36ecfca53752bafa3124eb704201c13c 10:21 because I don't think I can make it variant-independent 10:21 not really sure if it matters... do I really want to make a tileset for SLASH'EM Extended, for example 10:22 I did that because a player specifically requested it, claiming she "can't" play without room colors due to ADHD or some such jazz (nonsense, I suspect, but whatever). 10:22 the only reason I'd want to make a text tileset 10:22 not LarienTelrunya? 10:22 is to work around some of the idiosyncrasies of NH3 10:22 aosdict: No. 10:23 I'd like a Vulture-style room flavour thing that doesn't become repetitive after 10 seconds like Vulture's does 10:23 like "let's have 20 demons, all red &s" 10:23 and for branch colors 10:23 and STATUES 10:23 aosdict: LT would just say that he colors are "fleecy" and all variants should *bundlebundlebundle* have them. 10:23 She's not much for "I can't woe is me" type sob stories. 10:23 see, I don't think DT will object if I make a text tileset as a "backdoor" to work-around their UI silliness 10:24 because tilesets can do it too 10:24 FIQ: I was planning to do exactly that as a backdoor around exactly the same thing :-D 10:24 haha 10:24 great minds think alike 10:24 so you'll get no objection from me 10:24 Are we talking ghosts being " " here? 10:25 (Or, rather, _not_ being that?) 10:25 [hdf-us] [4k] Tangles (Wiz Syl Fem Cha) heard a rumor from The Oracle, on T:24443 10:25 I wasn't thinking of that example specifically but it's another good one 10:25 jonadab: not just that 10:25 things like monsters using the same color despite being different 10:25 just sort out the monster letters so that 1) no punctuation is used 2) as few color collisions as possible 10:25 Oh, that6. 10:25 and the stupid 3.6 statues 10:25 The "if you farlook everything this problem just goes away, but that's tedious" stuff. 10:25 aosdict: I'm OK with : and ; for monsters I think 10:26 aosdict: I was personally just going to port the NH4 tileset 10:26 although after doing this much terminal stuff I've got used to thinking of them as digits 10:26 ais523: so that leaves you unhappy with ' and " " ? 10:26 Umm. 10:26 "digits" to me means 0-9 10:26 aosdict: Changing letters and stuff around would be confusing 10:26 It wouldn't match genocide, etc 10:26 And possibly A-F 10:27 I'd personally keep using the same mlets 10:27 aosdict: yes 10:27 Just changing the color 10:27 Except making ghosts and shades W (they're ungenocideable anyway) 10:27 FIQ: For the most egregious one " ", ghosts and shades can become W class without too much trouble. 10:27 jonadab: in VT100 terminal codes, 0123456789<=>:;? are all in the same lexical category 10:27 aosdict: Right 10:27 That's what NH4 does 10:27 terminals who actually read the standards would know this and, e.g., not break on seeing colons in truecolor codes 10:28 err, not sure about ? actually 10:28 I was right, it does include ? 10:28 ais523: Are the standards (and were they in the nineties when most of the terminals were implemented) publicly available? 10:28 wasn't terminal codes supposed to be used for WWW 10:28 back in the day 10:28 jonadab: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-048.htm 10:29 Ah. 10:29 the first publicly available version dates from 1979 10:29 but it appears to have been scanned from a paper copy so I'm assuming it wasn't online /in/ 1979 :-P 10:29 Heh, indeed. 10:30 I'm just wondering if terminals didn't bother because they didn't think it was necessary or didn't want to bother, or if they didn't have access to the documents at the time. 10:30 I am aware that there WERE some standards, as recently as the nineties and early 2000s, that you had to buy a $100+ print book in order to read. 10:33 there are multiple competing standards organisations, many standards are available from more than one organisation 10:33 Most of the terminals we use today were largely implemented prior to 2000 and have been in maintenance mode since. 10:33 you can get the identical standard from ISO, for example, but they charge over 100 Swiss francs for it 10:33 But yeah, I don't happen to know about the terminal codes standards. 10:33 Heh. 10:33 Naturally. 10:34 ECMA are normally a good source for getting these things for free, even if they're sometimes accused of being rather too much in Microsoft's pocket 10:35 Eh, if Microsoft had their way, open standards wouldn't _exist_. 10:35 apparently the standard costs $209.29 or £152.14 to get a PDF 10:36 So I'm not sure I would worry very much that they are controlling the process, just because a standard has a thing or two in it that they like. 10:36 from ISO, when Ecma give it away for free 10:36 and it's more that when Microsoft want to try to make something a standard 10:36 they convince Ecma to post it even if it's redundant to existing standards 10:36 Ah. 10:36 which lets them make other standards bodies consider it seriously 10:36 Like .docx and friends? 10:36 yes, .docx is the most high-profile example 10:37 (Which, I mean, de facto, MS Word '97 .doc was already _effectively_ a standard, despite not being documented well AT ALL.) 10:37 unfortunately, their attempts to force it through were so visible that although it was "adopted", everyone became aware that it wasn't really a portable or open standard and ended up disallowing it in laws that required open standards 10:37 (So .docx is a clear improvement, even if it's not as good as .odt and whatnot.) 10:37 the old .doc format is, at this point, publicly documented 10:37 and is in some ways more logical than .docx 10:37 at least it corresponds to what Word actually does 10:37 Oh? 10:38 Well, yes. 10:38 Aren't parts of it basically just a memory dump? 10:38 yes 10:38 but the memory layout of Word is probably not all that insane 10:38 I mean, it's so widely supported that you can trivially find source code that implements it. 10:39 right, I mean there are official docs from Microsoft on how it works 10:39 Ah. 10:39 (now, at least; there weren't at the time) 10:39 Right, they probably gave up on keeping it proprietary when it became clear everyone was going to write software that could handle the format anyway. 10:39 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Bar Orc Mal Cha), 3849 points, T:3223, killed by a priest of Set, while paralyzed by a monster 10:40 Also, Microsoft has gotten somewhat better at supporting open protocols and formats lately. 10:41 I think the turning point was IE7 supporting .png 10:41 (Supporting it properly, I mean.) 10:41 You hardly see .bmp any more at all, even on Windows systems. 10:42 so .doc is just like a NH save? 10:42 and thus nonportable? 10:42 how is that useful? 10:42 Bear in mind, the idea of distributing word processing documents is relatively new. 10:43 When the format was designed, in the late eighties, the normal workflow for word processing was to use one computer to create, edit, maintain, and print the document. 10:44 Almost _no_ word processing formats, to this day, are _really_ designed for distributing the documents. Even OpenOffice documents, for instance, will have their page boundaries move around and such sometimes, when you open the document on a different computer. 10:44 A document designed to fit on two pages will be three, etc. 10:44 [hdf-us] [un] cpittman (Bar Orc Mal Cha), 761 points, T:631, killed by a bolt of lightning 10:44 "Bleech! Rotten food! You feel rather light headed. Your movements are now unencumbered." 10:44 that actually makes sense 10:45 Among other things, fixing this would require all fonts to be embedded into the document, which would probably require some laws to change. 10:45 you could allow only the use of legal-to-copy fonts 10:45 Well, true. 10:46 But that would annoy and confuse users greatly. 10:47 I'd argue that if you need stable page boundaries, a word processor is probably the wrong sort of package to use 10:48 that's like wanting lines to wrap in a stable place on a Web page 10:49 Word processors are designed for creating things you're going to print, though. 10:49 Unlike the web, which is designed for creating things that can reflow to fit whatever space is available. 10:50 and what if the printer has a different size of paper than you expected? 10:50 Word processing formats *do* include information about the paper size and orientation and such. 10:50 or you want to edit earlier in the document? 10:50 Sure, if you edit the document it'll reflow. 10:50 in general you shouldn't be making flow decisions manually as that's so fragile 10:50 That's expected. 10:50 Depends on the length of the document. 10:51 In a LONG document, you wouldn't make reflow decisions manually, except "we want a page break here between sections" kind of stuff. 10:51 But short documents (1-2 pages) are very often designed to fit the paper exactly. 10:51 Which works fine, as long as you don't take the document to a different computer. 10:52 there are desktop publishing packages (Scribus, etc.) which I think are more appropriate for that sort of thing 10:52 And the different-size-paper thing is a problem even with .pdf 10:53 As evidenced by people downloading exotic .pdf files from Europe that want to print on alien paper sizes that don't exist in our world, like A4. 10:53 If you don't turn on the "scale to fit" option in Acrobat Reader, the printer will beep at you and tell you it doesn't have that size. 10:56 (It's possible to buy printers here that _support_ A4 paper, I think because the same printers are also sold in Europe. But it is, AFAIK, not possible to buy A4 paper in the Western hemisphere.) 10:58 that would surprise me a lot 10:58 I've seen US-sized paper here although it's rare 10:58 Heh. Out of curiosity, I looked for A4 paper on Amazon. Searched for it specifically. Amazon showed me regular eight and a half by eleven ("letter" size) paper. 10:58 but A4 is pretty much the universal standard 10:59 maybe A4 is too short a word to show up on the search 10:59 Oh, wait, there is a listing here for size A4 paper. Imported from thailand. $9.44 for 40 sheets. https://www.amazon.com/A4-Premium-Printer-Paper-Thailand/dp/B076QK6VLN/ref=sr_1_3?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1520006265&sr=1-3&keywords=A4+paper 11:00 the A series works really nicely, though: they have a 1 by sqrt(2) aspect ratio, and each size consists of two copies of the next-smaller size side by side 11:00 Yeah, it's possible Amazon is correcting, going "You don't actually want A4, that is silly." 11:00 so you can cut an A4 piece of paper in half to get two A5 pieces of paper 11:00 ais523: That is not a strong argument for using a particular paper size. 11:01 And Letter size has been _the_ standard paper size here since before there were typewriters. 11:01 sizes outside the A series are rarely used; if you want a poster with an approximately A-ish aspect ratio it'll normally come as A0 11:01 I mean, there _are_ other sizes. Legal, for instance. 11:01 Tabloid. 11:01 Newsprint. 11:01 newspapers do their own thing sizing-wise 11:01 Envelope sizes. 11:02 envelopes have their own size series which is "large enough to fit an A-sized piece of paper folded into n" 11:02 Makes sense. 11:03 Envelopes here come in two basic common universal sizes (business, which are long so you only fold your letter-sized paper in one direction, and the other, more common size). 11:03 There are other sizes of envelopes, but they tend to be specifically designed for whatever you're putting in them, such as greeting cards. 11:03 Well, and of course there's the manilla enveloper, which is large enough to hold letter-size unfolded. 11:04 a C4 envelope can hold an A4 sheet of paper unfolded 11:04 or an A3 sheet of paper folded into two 11:05 Ah. 11:05 huh, apparently technical writers have pens whose stroke widths follow the same sqrt(2) series 11:05 Yeah, that's roughly analagous to manilla envelopes here. 11:05 so that if an image gets enlarged or reduced, they can still match the stroke widths 11:05 Interesting. 11:05 err, technical draweres 11:05 *drawers 11:05 I think technical writers here stopped using pens and paper for their writing a couple of decades ago. 11:06 ISO 216 specifies international standard (ISO) paper sizes used in most countries in the world today, although not in Canada, the United States, Mexico, or the Dominican Republic. 11:06 Even stuff like blueprint drafting is all done on computer now. 11:06 I was taught to be able to do it without a computer but I didn't see the point 11:06 Wait, does South America use the European sizes? I did not know that. 11:06 they're not so much European sizes as "almost everyone" sizes, it's an international standard 11:07 You're gonna tell me they didn't originate in Europe? 11:07 I ain't buyin' that. 11:08 hmm, apparently the idea was invented in Germany but the first implementation in France 11:08 so they did originate in Europe 11:08 this was in 1786, though 11:08 so the US hardly existed at the time 11:08 Almost all technology-related standards originate in either Europe, or (in the last couple of centuries) some in America. 11:08 Very few elsewhere. 11:09 And A4 paper clearly didn't come from America. 11:09 Ergo, Europe. 11:09 I think that's because the industrial revolution happened here 11:10 and it had a bigger need for standards than pretty much anything else 11:11 Hmm. "The precise origins of the dimensions of US letter size paper (8.5 × 11 in) are not known. The American Forest & Paper Association says that the standard US dimensions have their origin in the days of manual paper making, the 11" length of the standard paper being about a quarter of "the average maximum stretch of an experienced vatman's arms".[1] The letter size falls within the range of the h 11:11 istorical quarto size, which since pre-modern times refers to page sizes of 8 to 9 inches (200 to 230 mm) wide and 10 to 11 inches (250 to 280 mm) high, and it is indeed almost exactly one quarter of the old Imperial (British) paper size known as Demy 4to (17½"×22½"), allowing ½" for trimming. 11:12 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 11:12 And yes, we do have a size of paper that is slightly larger than letter. Construction paper size. I mean, you never see any kind of paper you'd ever run though a printer in that size. It's used for craft papers and such. 11:13 I'm not sure its exactly dimensions, but a sheet of it just won't quite fit into a folder designed for letter size. 11:13 9" by 12" apparently. (Had to look it up.) 11:13 Letter's really similar to A4, I just looked it up 11:14 a few millimeters wider, notably shorter though 11:14 It's a similar shape, yes. 11:14 When you look at a document designed for A4 on the screen, it looks normal-shaped. 11:14 6mm wider, 18mm shorter, to be preices 11:14 *precise 11:15 (Presumably, if you're used to A4, a Letter document would look normal-shaped as well.) 11:15 it used to cause problems over here because Word used to default to a paper size that doesn't actually exist 11:15 then when you went to print the document, it'd go "oh, this printer uses A4, I'd better reflow the document", which is a problem as the print is normally the last thing you do 11:15 Heh, early versions of StarOffice (back before Sun bought Star Division) defaulted to A4. 11:15 Similar problems resulted. 11:15 and people keep positioning things by spamming newline or the like, rather than by using reflow-safe commands 11:16 normally for word processing I use LyX nowadays 11:16 which actively doesn't let you try to format things in reflow-unsafe ways 11:16 do someting as simple as pressing space twice by mistake, and the status bar lights up with a message saying you can't do that and please read the manual 11:17 Oh, man, don't even get me started on people positioning things by using whitespace characters. 11:17 I work in a public library. 11:17 ais523: is it close enough for printers to be cross-compatible? 11:17 So I see documents where _spaces_ are used to position things, without any line breaks. 11:17 (without being deliberately so with autodetection/whatever, that is) 11:17 Things that are supposed to be centered on successive lines, or right-aligned. 11:17 FIQ: at least over here, printers have an adjustment lever 11:17 And then they come get me and ask me how to make the print bigger. 11:18 which can be used to fit any paper from "slightly wider than A4" down to A5 11:18 I believe there are printers that support autodetection 11:18 FIQ: Most printers here can take A4 paper. 11:18 but without it, you would need to move the lever, the tolerance is definitely less than 6mm 11:18 NOt the larger sizes, though. (Would A3 be larger, or A5?) 11:18 A3 is larger 11:18 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:19 Ok, so like wire guages. 11:19 Makes sense. 11:19 you need a specialised printer for printing the larger sizes 11:19 A3 is twice A4 11:19 A2 is twice A3, etc 11:19 Twice in each dimension, or twice in area? 11:19 and if you want to print A6 or smaller, you'll either need to print multiple copies on A4 and A5 and cut the page in half afterwards, or use a specialised printer for that too 11:19 twice in area 11:19 Ah, ok. 11:19 Makes sense. 11:19 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/A_size_illustration2.svg 11:20 Here, when people want to print something smaller-than-letter, such as halfpage fliers, they normally print 2-up or 4-up or whatever and then cut. 11:20 And yes, larger sizes require special printers. Though some photocopiers can handle up to 11x17. 11:21 FIQ: Hmm, my browser doesn't want to zoom out of that for some reason. 11:21 Oh, I see, it's .svg 11:22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_216#Dimensions_of_A,_B_and_C_Series 11:22 hmm, A-series paper was defined relative to metric, Letter to imperial 11:22 Do B and C actually get used? 11:22 C is used for envelopes as it's just larger than A 11:22 B is never really used in practice 11:22 Ah. 11:22 Ok. 11:22 That makes sense. 11:23 Wait, do you not have envelopes designed for folding the paper only in one direction? 11:23 (More than once, but parallel, I mean.) 11:23 jonadab: yes but those have different names that don't follow the normal pattern 11:23 Ah. 11:23 Ok. 11:23 A4÷3 + a bit is called DL, for example 11:23 Ah. 11:24 also, I looked it up, apparently the B series is used for books sometimes, also passports 11:24 What was B intended for historically? 11:24 just to give sizes between the A sizes, in case something more precise was needed 11:24 presumably B7 is the perfect size for a passport 11:25 whereas A7 would have been too small and A6 too large 11:25 Oh, is it the same shape as the A sizes? 11:25 yes 11:25 just intermediate in size 11:25 Ah. I see. 11:25 they're all the same shape 11:25 B7 is basically A6½ 11:26 1:sqrt(2) 11:28 Hmm, my passport is a booklet measuring 3 7/16 by 4 7/8. Prety sure this is not a standard size for anything else. 11:28 3x5 or 4x6 are standard sizes for cardstock. 11:28 (Lined index cards, particularly.) 11:29 (3x5 is more common, and is widely used for recipes. In the pre-computer days, it was the standard size for bibliographic cards.) 11:30 (Including the ones you turned in when doing a research paper for school, and also library card catalogs.) 11:30 $ perl -E 'say +((3+7/16)/(4+7/8))**2' 11:30 0.497205785667324 11:30 that looks pretty close to a sqrt(2) ratio to me :-) 11:30 Oh, the passport? 11:30 yep 11:30 Huh. 11:31 it's probably B7 like everyone else's 11:31 Maybe they were matching some other country's passport size, yeah. 11:31 having a standard size means that automatic passport readers are easier to create 11:32 Hmm, yeah, I think that is the same size. The chart FIQ linked said B7 is 88 mm wide, which Google says is 3.46457 inches 11:33 Which is about three hundredths of an inch off from what I measured, but my ruler's precision isn't good enough to detect that difference. 11:35 isn't the US legally metric? 11:36 The schools are legally required to teach metric, I think? In most states, anyway. 11:36 I think they teach both metric and imperial here 11:37 (The Federal government doesn't have the power to mandate that, because education is explicitly listed in the constitution as a power "reserved for the states, or to the people". 11:37 ) 11:37 And yes, they in practice teach both. 11:37 but I'm not sure about imperial, lessons which need to measure things are typically entirely in metric 11:37 But they way they teach metric, at least when I was in school in the eighties, is awkward and leads to everyone hating it. Hundreds of facts to memorize. 11:37 ais523: How much does UK use Imperial? 11:38 Here in Sweden, besides knowing about it, we don't use it at all 11:38 The way the traditional units are taught is hardly relevant, because they just get used in everyday life, so everyone just _knows_ them. 11:38 I have no idea what an inch is, for example, besides "it's a thing" 11:38 THey do teach them in school, but that doesn't even matter. 11:38 FIQ: It's a unit of distance, somewhere just shy of 3 cm I believe. 11:38 Google can convert it if you care. 11:39 FIQ: heights of people are usually given in feet, distances in miles (and speed in miles per hour) 11:39 Yeah, if I need to convert it for some reason, I just use Google 11:39 other than that, metric is normally used for just about everything by younger people 11:39 We do height of people in feet and inches. 11:39 ais523: Ah 11:39 older people will tend to measure, e.g., small objects in inche 11:39 *inches 11:39 Distance when traveling we do almost exclusively in minutes or, for longer distances, hours. 11:39 but younger people will use centimetres by default 11:39 Or for very short distances, blocks. 11:39 and just about every tape measure, ruler, etc. you can buy in the UK will do both 11:39 We have this odd unit here called "mil" (same etymology as mile I think) used for long distance travel and such. It's 10km though, and has nothing to do with the Imperial mile 11:40 No idea if it's a thing outside Sweden 11:40 miles historically had really widely varying definitions 11:40 cm are not used here outside the sciences (e.g., my mom was an OB nurse and used centimeters to measure how dilated patients were). 11:41 We do have 2-litre pop bottles, so most folks have a rough idea how much a litre is (for practical purposes, it's basically a quart). 11:41 And a lot of rulers do have both, yes. 11:41 But the cm side never gets used.f 11:41 Except as a novelty. 11:41 mil is a unit of thickness here, for things like paper. 11:41 drinks are almost entirely measured in ml here (occasionally cl/dl if they come from Europe) 11:42 however, beer is typically ordered in pints 11:42 Fountain drinks here are always measured (if measured at all, beyond name sizes like "large"), in oz, which means floz. 11:42 (legally speaking it has to be priced in ml, but they choose quantities that correspond to an exact number of pints) 11:42 Force almost always in pounds. 11:42 also, 1 floz US ≠ 1 floz UK, IIRC 11:42 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) eschewed atheism, by dropping a banana on an altar, on T:5102 11:42 I know the gallon is different. 11:43 Both systems have two pints in a quart, four quarts in a gallon. 11:43 And two cups in a pint. 11:43 But we have exactly 8 floz in a cup, and I think that's different over there. 11:43 And the gallon, as I said, is a different size I believe. 11:44 The major things we use gallons for here are milk, gas, and paint. Gas, of course, you don't actually see a gallon of, it gets pumped into your car's gas tank. But milk and paint gallons are well known. 11:45 Milk and juice are also sold in half gallons and quarts. 11:45 Pop is commonly sold in 12-oz cans. 11:48 One of my favorite trip-people-up questions is "Which weighs more, a pound of gold or a pound of feathers?" 11:48 It's a variation on a much more well-known one, bricks and feathers, to which the answer is, of course, they both weigh a pound. 11:48 But the pound of gold weighs 12 troy ounces, rather than 16 avkdjlakdjpois ounces. 11:50 I like that one too 11:50 pounds and ounces give different answers, and neither is "they're the same" 11:51 I always read that question as "£1 of gold" vs "£1 of feather" 11:51 today on #hardfought: fun with international paper and unit differences 11:52 FIQ: Oh, that might give yet another answer. 11:52 Interesting. 11:52 the feathers would be heavier, I imagine 11:52 they're not very expensive, gold is 11:52 Sounds right. Unless they're specialty feathers of some kind. 11:56 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 11:56 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 12:07 -!- Chris_ANG has joined #hardfought 12:11 -!- Chris_ANG has quit [Client Quit] 12:15 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased +3 gray dragon scale mail", on T:9283 12:28 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a werejackal, on T:8149 12:45 jonadab: re night driver: http://www.mataglap.com/Art/spookyfruit/nightdriver.html (1530 lines behind) 12:49 oh6: Seems like there might be safety issues. 12:50 oh6: you can probably skip the last several hundred lines unless you like comparisons of paper sizes in different countries 13:06 -!- ProzacElf has joined #hardfought 13:26 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:31 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:31 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:34 -!- Chris_ANG has joined #hardfought 13:53 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 13:57 [hdf-us] [dnh] Flan99 (Bin Dwa Fem Non), 6261 points, T:5624, killed by little shards of metal ripping out of your body 14:05 well that's an interesting death message 14:05 what spirit is that? 14:05 also, should be "her body", no? 14:07 yeah, it should 14:07 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 14:08 I've never seen that message before, but I'd guess astaroth 14:08 [hdf-us] [dnh] Flan99 (Bin Inc Fem Non), 172 points, T:462, killed by a red mold 14:10 I mean, the shards of metal could be ripping out of *my* body, going into Flan99's game, and killing them. 14:11 if we want to reflavor it for no good reason :) 14:15 yes, it was from astaroth's shards spirit power 14:26 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 14:29 [hdf-us] [dnh] Flan99 (Ana Inc Fem Cha), 1306 points, T:1325, killed by a dwarf 14:29 Sounds uncomfortable, honestly. 14:46 -!- tacco\unfoog has joined #hardfought 14:53 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:55 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law), 21951 points, T:12271, killed by a bolt of lightning 15:21 "Oops" 15:21 Chris_ANG: Message from @riker at 2018-03-02 09:37 EST: hitting a known mimic with F seems to crash? 15:21 Chris_ANG: Message from @riker at 2018-03-02 09:38 EST: at least, hitting that one mimic in minetown deli crashed (on teh second hit, once it was revealed) 15:21 Chris_ANG: Message from @riker at 2018-03-02 10:13 EST: you're aware of the "gems can be generated with an unneeded glass/stone" type, right? (i.e. "stone piece of worthless glass", "glass piece of worthless glass") 15:22 [hdf-us] [dnh] Flan99 (Bin Clk Fem Non), 191 points, T:1529, killed by a gnome 15:22 Huh 15:22 The mimic one is weird. 15:23 Also the unneeded material type is new on me. 15:26 [hdf-us] [dnh] Flan99 (Bin Hlf Fem Non), 9 points, T:389, killed by a goblin 15:29 -!- hothraxxa has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:29 [hdf-us] [dnh] Lol (Bar Hum Mal Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:7457 15:29 -!- hothraxxa has joined #hardfought 15:30 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v hothraxxa] by ChanServ 15:37 [hdf-us] [dnh] Flan99 (Bin Hlf Fem Non), 314 points, T:1286, killed by a jackal 15:41 [hdf-us] [nd] ellipsis (Rog Orc Mal Cha), 24824 points, T:17246, killed by a flesh golem 16:01 -!- Chris_ANG has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:02 How can I make a monster pick up a key? 16:02 hmm 16:02 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-03-02 10:16 EST: pushed a fix to Cleaver [thanks paxed] 16:02 drop key on floor in closet 16:03 oh not a pet 16:03 a monster 16:03 could be a pet 16:03 look at grunthacks code 16:03 monsters there will use keys and will unlock doors and rummage through chests and bags 16:04 they dont unlock chests though 16:04 Yeah, but I want to make a monster pick up a key, which I know they can do in vanilla. I tried with a troll because I thought they pick up everything, but he doesn't want it. 16:05 The thing I'm testing here is still "can a monster open a door". 16:05 s/open/unlock 16:09 maybe its an inteligence flag 16:09 instead of a troll, try a soldier, or watch captain 16:10 Trolls are intelligent, I think. But I have to put this on hold because I found something else to debug. 16:11 $%!#@#* gotos 16:11 heh 16:13 oh god there are like 5 different move functions for various specific monsters 16:14 * aosdict dreams of a simpler world, where nethack wasn't built around the assumption that a monster interacting with a door would always move onto that square 16:16 aosdict: bottom of muse.c 16:16 @ pickup 16:18 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 16:18 FIQ: can't deal with that now, have to figure out some way to use the mon-interacts-with-doors code in a sane way across all 6 places it evidently needs to appear 16:19 translation: FIQ thanks! 16:19 lol 16:31 aosdict: Convincing monsters to pick up items is a _real_ pain with the NetHack AI. Though I think keys are particularly a problem in vanilla, because most monsters don't consider it a desirable item. 16:31 Easiest way to get a monster to pick up a key is probably to drop the key on the floor and raise a dog's apport with tripe. 16:32 But it won't carry it, it'll keep dropping it at your feet. 16:33 <[Demo]> I like dnh pet item system 16:33 <[Demo]> with loot and catch 16:34 [hdf-us] [dnh] innmalint (Arc Dwa Mal Law), 954 points, T:1992, killed by a gnome lord 16:37 <[Demo]> hey if I had a bot here where u could fuck with demobot role/race/align/gender would anyone fuck with it? 16:42 Just do monster autopickup :) 16:46 I hear there's one variant where monsters can pick up all the items they want off of the floor without taking any time to do so... :P 16:47 EPI: hostile monsters have no inventory limits, they can just carry everything no matter what. 16:51 what the heck 16:51 how did I make it so that gold doesn't stack 16:51 I'm not even touching invent code 16:51 aosdict: the most common reason for that is that its bknown is getting set somehow 16:52 ais523: does bknown display on gold? 16:52 i.e. will you see "blessed" in the inventory? 16:52 aosdict: no, it's not visible in the inventory, only in a debugger 16:53 this still raises the question of why did it happen in the first place... all I've done on this branch is door trap stuff... 16:55 ais523: So we won't have that problem in NH4, then? 16:56 probably, unless the cause is different from the usual one 16:56 ais523: hm, examining it in a debugger, all the *known flags are the same between two separate stacks of gold 16:57 so something else must be wrong then, I guess 16:57 Different beatitude? 16:57 Surely not... 16:57 I can *merge* them with #adjust... 16:57 Ah. 16:57 Hmm. 17:06 -!- deadnoob_ has joined #hardfought 17:10 -!- deadnoob has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:17 NeroOneTrueKing: so just like players, you mean 17:17 nice and fair 17:18 ais523: Not sure with NH3, but in NH4, gold is explicitly checked and will always return TRUE when checking for merging 17:18 isn't that vanilla behavior? monsters *can* pick up multiple things (and they can move+pickup in one turn) but usually don't. 17:18 aosdict: I think the way it works in vanilla is a bug 17:19 given how inconsistent it is 17:19 monsters only do it sometimes 17:19 and it doesn't seem to depend on the content of an object pile 17:23 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed ring of levitation", on T:66190 17:23 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of genocide", on T:66191 17:24 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "2 uncursed scrolls of genocide", on T:66194 17:24 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 helm of telepathy", on T:66196 17:24 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed wand of death", on T:66202 17:27 !asc DemoBot 17:27 Tarmunora__: DemoBot has ascended 18 times in 354 games (5.08%): nh:18 (5.08%) 17:35 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "3 blessed scrolls of enchant armor", on T:66558 17:36 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "3 blessed scrolls of enchant armor", on T:66607 17:51 !8ball Will AmyBSOD keep dying like a bloody noob despite playing her own game? 17:51 LarienTelrunya: Outlook good 18:03 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 18:03 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 18:24 -!- Chris_ANG has joined #hardfought 18:25 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:2550 18:30 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38 !8ball did that death happen because I was stupid? 18:38 LarienTelrunya: It is decidedly so 18:38 -!- deadnoob_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Mon Hum Fem Neu) polymorphed her first object, on T:33581 18:43 aosdict: about the cooking corpses idea, in Elona there are cooking tools that the player can find or buy, and a cooking skill, which is required to be able to cook at all; higher cooking skill and/or better cooking tools will create better dishes, which give more nutrition, too low skill can result in dishes that give even less than the raw food 18:54 filed under: more reasons to not play elona 18:54 =p 18:55 what??? why not? 18:55 don't you also want to eat floating eye steak and eel sushi? :P 18:56 and orange grand parfait as well as carrot curry, of course? 18:57 anyway, bedtime 18:57 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Amy suddenly falls asleep!] 19:11 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 19:11 [hdf-us] [un] Delraven (Ran Orc Mal Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:49998 19:30 [hdf-us] [un] Delraven (Ran Orc Mal Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:50255 19:34 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 19:41 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:50 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) performed the invocation, on T:77893 20:25 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) eschewed atheism, by dropping 10 arrows on an altar, on T:8338 20:27 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 20:28 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 20:37 !tell LarienTelrunya slex monster idea: creates doors randomly where it walks, and will fix any broken doorway it passes through. Has permanent phase door. 20:37 Will do, aosdict! 20:39 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) entered the Planes, on T:82722 20:41 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Mon Hum Fem Neu) made her first wish - "blessed greased fireproof bag of holding", on T:34650 20:45 aosdict: And can cast Summon Xorns? 21:06 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:14 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Cha), 19218014 points, T:85166, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/D/DemoBot/nh343/dumplog/1520008460.nh343.txt 21:17 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 21:21 [hdf-us] [nh] DemoBot (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased +3 gray dragon scale mail", on T:1434 21:55 whoa, for some reason nethack just started compiling about 2x as fast 22:07 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a leprechaun, on T:10007 22:14 @v?shopkeeper 22:14 shopkeeper (@) | Lvl: 12 | Diff: 15 | Spd: 18 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 50 | Generates: special | AC: 0 | Attacks: 4d4 weapon physical, 4d4 weapon physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: omnivore, nopoly, infravisible 22:15 [hdf-us] [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law), 18226 points, T:10343, killed by a dwarf 22:18 cool, seems like I did finally manage to get monster door code into a sane state 22:19 (oh, and an easy way to test key behavior on monsters is by creating peaceful un-shop-tending shopkeepers) 22:37 -!- deadnoob has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:56 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 22:56 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 23:14 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:16 -!- _catalyst_ has joined #hardfought 23:37 <@riker> EPI: death attributes says how many wand of wishing were gen'd and never picked up/used 23:37 <@riker> .... + 1d5 23:37 <@riker> (i.e. it will tell you that you missed 3 when you didn't) 23:50 -!- _catalyst_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:54 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Mon Hum Fem Neu) made her first artifact wish - "blessed greased rustproof eye of the aethiopica", on T:37348