01:24 [hdf-us] [nd] Menche (Ran Hum Mal Cha), 0 points, T:220, killed by a water elemental 01:24 killed by dumb 01:44 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:58 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:58 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 02:09 !tell StatueSurfer There is an ascension for the current slex version, on the em.slashem.me server. I scored it 12 days ago. Also, that "fake difficulty" can't be all that fake if it constantly causes player characters to die... :D 02:09 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 02:22 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:47 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:48 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 03:36 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 03:44 -!- nht has joined #hardfought 03:54 LarienTelrunya: do you even know what fake difficulty is? 03:54 it doesn't mean lack of difficulty 03:54 it means that the difficulty is achieved by what is almost universally considered poor game design 03:54 trial and error gameplay for example is usually regarded as fake difficulty 03:54 it doesn't mean that the game is easy 03:54 ah 04:01 bouquet: for nh4-derivatives there is also a scorelist accessible from ingame 04:02 via 's' in the menu 04:02 nethack4, fourk, fiqhack, dynahack 04:02 -!- NCommander has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 04:04 FIQ: tvtropes says "It is important to note that just because a gameplay feature is annoying and frustrating does not make it fake difficulty." 04:05 which is entirely correct 04:11 -!- NCommander has joined #hardfought 04:54 -!- rumflump has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:04 -!- deadnoob has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:06 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 05:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 05:07 -!- nht has quit [Quit: nht] 05:33 [hdf-us] [nh] pavelek (Val Hum Fem Law), 4000 points, T:1500, killed by invisible Yeenoghu, while being terrified of a demon 05:51 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:51 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 07:22 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49 FIQ: do you mean remove traps, or remove #untrap? 07:51 I admit, the presence of door traps which don't go away and can't be untrapped but can only be triggered a specific way is intriguing. 07:52 I guess the sequence would go like, discover static shocking knob either through searching or triggering it -> find some other way to get through the door without touching the knob, such as kicking it down or zapping opening at it 07:53 Doesn't work as well when the _only_ trap effect is a KABOOM!! explosion. 08:09 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:24 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:27 hi 08:27 Hello FIQ, Welcome to #hardfought 08:28 [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 312 points, T:1542, killed by a gnome 08:28 aosdict: I meant #untrap 08:29 I mean, I do like the fact that nethack allows you to skillfully disarm a trap. But perhaps there should be some level cap or nonweapon skill so that it's not what you should be doing right off the bat. 08:29 !tell ais523 So I got an annoying bug earlier that was made harder for 2 reasons. 1: I was stupid and messed up the desync detector error handler. Easily fixed. 2: For whatever reason, savemap.pl doesn't actually save all savemaps -- notably not MTAG_FLAGS which is the one I had issues with. I ended up counting the bytes by hand and figured out the issue, but why is savemap.pl not working here? 08:29 Will do, FIQ! 08:32 aosdict: My issue isn't the flavour, or even the mechanic per se 08:32 But rather the extreme tedium of having to #untrap every single door I come across 08:32 Rather than, you know, just walking into them to navigate 08:33 If you make the game such that you have to do this, please at least fix the UI 08:33 Yeah. I don't want that either. 08:34 [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 466 points, T:1462, killed by a hobbit 08:34 Maybe an attempt to open a door should include a cursory trap check (akin to using passive perception in D&D - could fail but will detect obvious traps)? 08:34 Maybe? Will it prevent the need to do constant #untrapping in practice? 08:35 See: GruntHack door explosions 08:35 (Which I end up not bothering doing anyway because it'd be incredibly annoying, but I know K2 does, and it's technically optimal play) 08:36 early game you have to start checking doors at around dlvl 4-5 08:36 otherwise you'll either die or have all your inventory burn up 08:36 You overestimate the factor of them 08:36 I haven't ever had a grunthack door trap screw me over, luckily 08:36 but I know it's optimal play 08:36 i've probably played a lot more gh games than you 08:36 Yes, you have 08:37 [hdf-us] [un] krm26 (Tou Hum Fem Neu) killed the ghost of Luxidream, the former Cutpurse, on T:9111 08:37 and my style is more reckless i think 08:37 or used to be anyways 08:37 But still, I have played enough games that it seems really unlikely 08:37 maybe i just have really bad luck :P 08:37 FIQ: I have had my cloak of protection burnt away by a gh exploding door, and it sucks 08:37 I have 2 GruntHack ascensions and plenty of play beyond that 08:37 aosdict: Yes, I'm not saying it can't happen 08:38 But rather that IMO the small chance of having it happen is worth the lack of having to bother #untrapping all the time 08:38 if you have a bag, it allieviates most of the hassle 08:38 even if I lose games because of it 08:38 Then again, I never cared about streaking 08:38 Or asc rate 08:38 But still, while I've died plenty in grunt, it has never been due to a door trap 08:39 There is a strong argument for getting a guaranteed analysis on whether a door is trapped, automatically, when you attempt to interact with it. 08:39 nor has one messed up my inventory real bad 08:39 Or a container, for that matter. <-- YANI 08:40 I don't #untrap containers either, unless I'm doing tournament play where I want to win sooner rather than later 08:40 But they're far less annoying 08:40 than doors 08:40 The only thing is, in accord with other discussions along this line, the act of searching for a trap should probably take multiple turns based on stats... and most players wanting to walk through a door won't want to auto-spend several turns checking. 08:40 So make earlygame door traps not an immediate threat? 08:41 They aren't. 08:42 First few levels, all you can get is stuff like screechy hinges, self-locking doors, and buckets of water falling on your head. 08:52 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 08:59 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 08:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 09:09 [hdf-us] [un] krm26 (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 33889 points, T:10366, petrified by a cockatrice 09:21 -!- Announcy has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:22 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:25 if you drop paper into water 09:25 it tends to become unusable 09:25 why doesn't nethack replicate this 09:25 scrolls are probably... sheepskin or something? 09:26 then unlabeled scrolls should be called "blank parchment" 09:28 anyway it's almost certainly a (good) flavor/gameplay tradeoff 09:28 and it should be made of leather 09:28 not paper 09:31 what about paper golems? 09:32 you could have "a wet scroll" with a timeout 09:32 i always chuckle when i hot paper golems with fire and they drop scrolls 09:32 hit. i hit them 09:32 (then "a damp scroll", "a slightly damp scroll") 09:32 slightly damp scrolls have a less than 100% chance to be written on successfully 09:36 hothraxxa: I was actually considering fixing that 09:36 haven't yet 09:36 Modern paper is a surprisingly recent invention. 09:36 same with wood golems and dropping far less (if any) quarterstaves 09:36 or at least burnt ones 09:37 As recently as 1700, wood-pulp paper was unknown. Ragstock was common. 09:37 <[Demo]> paper meant something else 09:37 _Really_ modern (acid-free blah blah blah) paper dates to the late twentieth century. 09:40 Actually, Wikipedia says wood-pulp paper was introduced in 1843. 09:41 <[Demo]> yeah that makes sense 09:41 hothraxxa: that typo made so much sense though 09:41 i blame freud 09:42 it's not my typing skills, which everyone knows are exemplray 09:42 Indede. 09:43 so jonadab, do you know what the magi conduct is? 09:44 <[Demo]> its when you bring jesus a gift after he's born 09:44 lies! i never did that 09:44 i'm old but not THAT old 09:44 Heh. 09:45 hothraxxa: I don't know that one, no. 09:46 i'm guessing it has to do with not cheating in soskoban, which dynahack tracks 09:46 how that would become magi is the weak point in that theory 09:47 Ah, Dyna. I don't know much about the DynaHack codebase or conducts. 09:47 I mean, I know Dyna is Nitro with a bunch of Un and NH4 stuff ported over. 09:47 it's nh4 but he made a lot of changes 09:47 But that's basically all I know. 09:47 oh i thought it was nh4 based 09:47 Not as such. 09:47 Though it has a lot of NH4 stuff in it. 09:47 Also a ton of Un stuff. 09:48 And some original stuff. 09:48 well wherever color alchemy came from, i want it to go back 09:48 I think that might've come from Un, not sure. 09:48 makes my head hurt 09:48 And yeah, alchemy kind of needs some balance changes, but I dislike color alchemy. 09:48 although my orc wizard learned how to make gain level, that was nice 09:49 two of the primaries didn't exist, very frustrating 09:58 yeah, I don't like how every game randomizes whether you can make all the "good" potions from common useless ones, whether you can make good potions but they require rare ingredients, or whether all the good ones are inaccessible. 09:58 (jonadab: would you classify it as low-headroom? Not sure.) 09:59 -!- firemonkey has joined #hardfought 10:00 aosdict: dyna buffs it somewhat 10:00 it gurantees that the good potions are from secondaries 10:00 dynahack makes sure that full healing, gain level, and gain ability are all secondaries 10:01 however no guarantee that the primaries you need for them are in the game 10:01 indeed 10:01 (what happened to me) 10:14 Right, from a gameplay perspective, color alchemy is one big diceroll at game start that has huge implications for what you can do later, and you don't find out until you identify potions, midgame typically. 10:14 From a flavor perspective, color alchemy is "magic potions? They're basically just food coloring, haha." 10:15 Which I don't like either. 10:15 Something needs to be done to alchemy; that isn't it. 10:22 jonadab: I don't like random alchemy either. Mix together two random potions and get a different result each time. 10:23 No, that just means you have to save up potions until you have a _huge_ stack of something, and then dip it in random other things until you get what you want. 10:25 One possible idea: use a deterministic algorithm randomized per-game for what two potions will mix together into. But that runs into the same problems of it being an effective diceroll at the start. 10:25 Yeah. 10:27 It's tempting to take the 3.6 alchemy stack-splitting and crank it up to 11: 1 potion dipped into 1 potion yields 2 potions, but trying to dip a stack of 2 splits it, only one of them gets alchemized. 10:28 That's kind of an extreme change. 10:28 And would require rebalancing other stuff around it. 10:28 And even if you fixed it to guarantee that you can always mix good potions from non-good ones, you would have people complaining that in their game, you can only make gain level by dipping polymorph into acid, or something. 10:28 But it's tempting because the existing alchemy chains all rely on rare or semi-rare potions as _one_ of the two ingredients at every step. 10:29 jonadab: I suggested that a while back 10:29 1+1=2 alchemy 10:29 I think it would be better 10:29 I'm not sure I like it, but it's... tempting in some ways. 10:29 it's on the IRC archive but you'll have to search for it 10:30 Conceptually, it's a very simple change. 10:30 But balancing around it... we have to assume the player can no longer get 300+ MaxHP. 10:30 Among other things. 10:30 yasi: randomly generated potion effects which substitute random alchemy 10:31 jonadab: nethack is balanced assuming no heavy potion alchemy abuse 10:31 And also, by extension, no farming. 10:31 aosdict: Also, one of the things I kind of want to fix is that most potions are only useful either for alchemy or for holy water. 10:32 simple fix 10:32 I think doing alchemy, or making holy water, should be a trade-off. 10:32 make potion breaths work on monsters 10:32 I wonder if sinks could figure into alchemy potion-testing or something. <-- YANI 10:32 Against the potions' main uses. 10:32 FIQ: That would help. 10:32 aosdict: That's a very interesting idea. 10:32 Sinks could use some additional uses, for sure. 10:33 YASI: some alchemy combinations are exothermic, so you get the result you want, but only after a pillar of fire happens. 10:35 YASI: if you drop a potion of polymorph while levitating, breaking it, any objects on the floor at that spot get polymorphed. 10:35 Now what could sinks do? Maybe you can toss two potions in there and see what potion they make? 10:36 What if pouring a potion into a sink identified the potion similarly to rings? 10:36 StatueSurfer had an idea to add ovens for potion testing and alchemy, but I'd prefer not to add more dungeon furniture if I can help it. 10:36 jonadab: great for potion ID, but has nothing to do with alchemy. 10:36 (Unless it's polymorph, in which case it polymorphs the sink into a fountain or other dungeon feature <-- YASI.) 10:36 cauldrons 10:36 aosdict: Oh, true. 10:37 Hmm, what if doing alchemy at a sink is somehow more efficient? Less chance of alchemical blast? 10:37 1+1=2 instead of 1+1=1? 10:37 aosdict: I've added one dungeon feature. 10:37 that would just add tedium 10:37 But yeah, I don't think ovens will be on my list any time soon. 10:37 FIQ: Hmm, good point. 10:38 people would feel obliged to go to a sink to do their alchemy 10:38 "There's a sink three levels up from my stash..." 10:38 Yeah. 10:38 potentially involving several stash trips 10:39 allthough it's tempting to make it possible to dip potions into sinks 10:39 they generally produce water, but sometimes random potion liquid 10:39 Unless it's *so much better* in a sink that it's a factor in where you locate the stash in the first place. 10:42 yasi: complete the alchemy table by maing each potential potion mix result in one other potion 10:42 because we need more spoiler demand 10:42 *making 10:42 oh, like hardcoded? yeah that would be silly 10:42 some 1000 results 10:42 :P 10:43 or make each potion have a chemical composition defined and let the game figure out the result :D 10:44 btw 10:44 full healing vs ater 10:44 *water 10:45 should make extra healing 10:45 then healing, then diluted 10:45 I would very much like for each potential potion mix to result in some other potion, but as said, if it's *not* hardcoded and contains any randomization, that isn't fair. 10:45 they're basicaly the same thing with different strengths 10:46 Huh, that would allow you to identify full and extra healing by diluting them. 10:46 most easily solved flavour-wise appearance-wise by guranteeing the healing chain to go from clear, diluted, bright, "normal", dark 10:47 aosdict: if you now healing yes 10:47 *know 10:47 actually no 10:48 That's an interesting way to take color alchemy (dilution takes you from dark -> normal -> bright), but ultimately suffers from the same randomization problem as color alchemy. 10:48 since they'd be the only potions that don't immediately dilute 10:49 aosdict: well I meant specifically for healing 10:49 if the flavour for it was made as just being different concentrations 10:50 it shouldn't generally work like that I mean 10:51 yani: a whity to cancel out the effect of the blacky in slashem extended 10:51 -!- raisse has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:51 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 10:51 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 10:51 epi: make the useful alchemy results require involving polymorph, and make alchemic blasts give the effects of both potions involved 10:51 is whity some weird alphabetical take on xhity 10:52 no, it's an inverse of blacky 10:52 it seems coincidental 10:52 is "blacky" an actual thing or is it "black y" 10:52 @le?blacy 10:52 blacy ~1~ black (j) | Lvl: 25 | Diff: 29 | Spd: 12 | Res: cold sleep poison acid | Confers: cold poison acid | MR: 60 | Generates: special | AC: -4 | Attacks: 2d6 engulf level drain, 2d6 engulf level drain | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, omnivore, amorphous, breathless, mindless, poisonous, vegan 10:52 the idea is that if while a whity is protected and kept alive, the blacky won't kill you 10:52 @le?blacky 10:52 blacky (@) | Lvl: 10 | Diff: 12 | Spd: 12 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 3 | Generates: special | AC: 10 | Attacks: 1d6 weapon physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: omnivore, flies, nopoly 10:52 ..why does that exist 10:53 but yeah 10:53 meant blacky 10:53 @le?red 10:53 red ~2~ ae (d) | Lvl: 2 | Diff: 1 | Spd: 12 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 5 | Attacks: 1d9 passive physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, infravisible 10:53 @le?white 10:53 white ~2~ whale (;) | Lvl: 19 | Diff: 20 | Spd: 10 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 10 | Attacks: 6d6 bite physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, omnivore, swims, amphibious, thick hide, oviparous, infravisible, vegetarian 10:53 why is black a monster 10:53 > oviparous 10:53 the exist because amy wanted to put you in a cruel situation 10:53 it's slex 10:53 <[Demo]> its funny 10:54 everything is oviparous 10:54 @le?petty water nymph 10:54 petty water nymph ~1~ pretty water nymph (n) | Lvl: 5 | Diff: 7 | Spd: 12 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 40 | Generates: special | AC: 6 | Attacks: 0d0 claw item steal, 0d0 gaze seduce | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, swims, teleports, infravisible 10:54 hm maybe not 10:55 and I also have no idea where the blacky idea came from 10:56 <[Demo]> me neither 10:56 jonadab, you didn't suggest a delayed instadeath monster to amy by any chance, did you? 10:58 @le?intelligent monkey 10:58 intelligent monkey (Y) | Lvl: 2 | Diff: 4 | Spd: 12 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 6 | Attacks: 0d0 claw item steal, 1d3 bite physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, omnivore, oviparous, infravisible 10:58 right that was the one that made me think everything new in slex was oviparous 10:58 @le?speedchick 10:58 speedchick ~3~ speedlich (L) | Lvl: 25 | Diff: 30 | Spd: 13 | Res: fire cold sleep shock poison drain | Confers: fire cold | MR: 90 | Generates: special | AC: -6 | Attacks: 5d6 touch cold, 7d8 cast spell | Alignment: -15 | Flags: genocidable, breathless, regenerates, poisonous, undead, covetous 10:59 @le?speedxan 10:59 No such monster. 10:59 @le?speed dog 10:59 No such monster. 10:59 @le?money 10:59 money ~1~ monkey (Y) | Lvl: 2 | Diff: 4 | Spd: 12 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 6 | Attacks: 0d0 claw item steal, 1d3 bite physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, omnivore, infravisible 10:59 ok 10:59 @le?boopy 10:59 boopy ~2~ boo (8) | Lvl: 17 | Diff: 19 | Spd: 5 | Res: cold sleep disintegrate poison petrification drain | Confers: nothing | MR: 70 | Generates: special | AC: -10 | Attacks: 5d5 touch physical | Alignment: -5 | Flags: flies, phases, breathless, unsolid, undead, stalker, vegan 11:00 boo! 11:00 [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 22426 points, T:13690, killed by an air elemental, while disrobing 11:00 @le?superman 11:00 superman ~3~ superdog (d) | Lvl: 8 | Diff: 9 | Spd: 12 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 5 | Attacks: 3d9 bite physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, infravisible 11:00 what does the ~3~ superdog mean? 11:00 -!- rumflump has joined #hardfought 11:00 @le?megabat 11:00 megabat (B) | Lvl: 8 | Diff: 11 | Spd: 22 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 4 | Attacks: 2d7 bite skill-cap-reducting | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, flies, infravisible 11:01 oh6: how far away was it spelling-wise 11:01 @le?batman 11:01 batman (B) | Lvl: 2 | Diff: 6 | Spd: 22 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 8 | Attacks: 1d5 weapon level drain | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, flies, nopoly, infravisible 11:01 oh a fuzzy match 11:01 yes 11:02 @le?annoying troll 11:02 annoying troll (T) | Lvl: 9 | Diff: 13 | Spd: 12 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 0 | Attacks: 3d6 weapon physical, 2d8 claw physical, 2d6 bite physical, 1d1 touch displacement | Alignment: -3 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, regenerates, stalker, infravisible 11:02 it uses levenstein I think 11:02 @le?meme 11:02 meme ~2~ Pete (f) | Lvl: 10 | Diff: 19 | Spd: 18 | Res: disintegrate petrification | Confers: nothing | MR: 50 | Generates: unique | AC: -3 | Attacks: 4d8 weapon physical, 4d6 kick item steal | Alignment: -10 | Flags: omnivore, nopoly, stalker 11:02 @le?bug sniper 11:02 bug sniper ~3~ big spider (s) | Lvl: 5 | Diff: 7 | Spd: 15 | Res: poison | Confers: poison | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 4 | Attacks: 2d4 bite drain str | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, oviparous, poisonous 11:03 bug_sniper: I don't remember. 11:03 @le?FIQ 11:03 FIQ ~2~ fox (d) | Lvl: 0 | Diff: 1 | Spd: 15 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 7 | Attacks: 1d3 bite physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, infravisible 11:03 @le?Luxidream 11:03 No such monster. 11:03 aw 11:03 @le?umbreon 11:03 umbreon (r) | Lvl: 12 | Diff: 14 | Spd: 11 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 2 | Attacks: 1d3 claw physical, 1d3 bite physical, 1d16 bite remove-light | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, omnivore, oviparous 11:03 I guess 3 is the maximum distance the bot uses 11:04 @le?pikachu 11:04 pikachu (r) | Lvl: 10 | Diff: 12 | Spd: 13 | Res: shock | Confers: shock | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 7 | Attacks: 3d3 bite shock, 3d3 breath shock | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, oviparous, infravisible 11:04 @@le?fox 11:04 fox (d) | Lvl: 0 | Diff: 1 | Spd: 15 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 7 | Attacks: 1d3 bite physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, infravisible 11:04 @@le?Luxidream 11:04 Luxidream ~5~ Luisa (q) | Lvl: 6 | Diff: 11 | Spd: 12 | Res: disintegrate petrification | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: unique | AC: 10 | Attacks: 2d4 weapon physical, 2d4 kick physical | Alignment: 1 | Flags: omnivore, nopoly, stalker 11:04 @le?abra 11:04 abra (e) | Lvl: 5 | Diff: 7 | Spd: 15 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 4 | Attacks: 3d4 gaze disarm, 2d2 touch confuse | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, flies, mindless, oviparous 11:04 @le?moltres 11:04 no teleport? 11:04 moltres ~3~ Mother (A) | Lvl: 16 | Diff: 20 | Spd: 16 | Res: sleep | Confers: sleep | MR: 50 | Generates: special | AC: 0 | Attacks: 1d8 weapon physical, 2d8 cast clerical | Alignment: -20 | Flags: omnivore, seeinvis, infravisible 11:09 not enough legendary pokemon in slex, it would appear 11:10 Pinobot feature request: you can use a ! instead of a ? and that will look for only exact matches. 11:16 le?fox 11:25 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:28 <[Demo]> oh god 11:28 <[Demo]> so this role requires an artifact to win the game that you can only name at level 30 11:29 <[Demo]> but there is only one way to generate the base item you have to name and you can only do it once 11:29 <[Demo]> so if that item gets destroyed, you're shit out of luck 11:30 <[Demo]> so my bad solution is to make it so if you are level 30 and the artifact doesn't exist and talk to quest leader or friendly they just give you the artifact 11:31 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 11:31 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 11:36 hothraxxa congrats on your dynahack asc from yesterday 11:37 ty. do you know what the magi conduct is? 11:37 no i do not 11:37 that was my first wishless ascension 11:38 because frankly, dynahack wishing sucks 11:38 its mirrored from unnethack 11:38 <[Demo]> wait is it called dynahack cause its like dynamite cause its based on nitrohack like nitroglycerin? 11:38 i think it's slightly modified 11:38 i cant remember how if at all 11:38 i've only ascended dynahack once 11:39 you can't get a 1:0 wishing wand in dyna 11:39 mine was 1:1 11:39 hah 11:40 i like gold dragon scale armor 11:40 permanent light and you know what gold dragons are 11:41 yellow dragon scale's extra properties are nice too 11:41 ie for wishing or rev-geno purposes 11:41 yes but you don't know which ones are yellow 11:41 <[Demo]> wait theres a british spelling of archeologist? 11:41 go to the dragon caves 11:42 get some chromatic scales 11:42 of course, that's what i did 11:42 \o/ 11:42 but those are at the bottom of gehennom 11:43 i reached the castle and the dragons didn't drop scales, so i rev-genoed gold dragons 11:43 what i do (if not a spellcaster) when playing unnethack/dynahack to tide me over - visit ruins of moria, the dwarvish mithril armor drops are usually enchanted +3 to +5 11:43 wait, what ruins of moria? 11:43 hmm 11:43 dyna may not have it 11:44 i forget dynahack is based off of unnethack 4 11:44 will have to check 11:44 not in dyna 11:44 :/ 11:44 i was a wizard anyway 11:45 i found studded leather of telepathy fairly early 11:45 studded leather is pretty good stuff 11:45 yup 11:46 [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Arc Hum Mal Law), 1346 points, T:1688, killed by a hill orc 11:46 -!- bhaak has joined #hardfought 11:46 -!- Announcy has joined #hardfought 11:54 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 12:24 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:16 -!- firemonkey has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:28 [hdf-us] [nd] ellipsis (Rog Orc Mal Cha) wished for "blessed amulet of reflection", on T:18292 13:29 -!- firemonkey has joined #hardfought 13:34 [hdf-us] [fh] bouquet (Kni Dwa Fem Law), 12663 points, T:488, killed by a Ms. Aklavik, the shopkeeper's wand 13:36 [hdf-us] [nd] ellipsis (Rog Orc Mal Cha) made his first artifact wish - "blessed fixed +2 Magicbane", on T:18309 13:40 [hdf-us] [nd] ellipsis (Rog Orc Mal Cha) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of enchant weapon", on T:18333 13:45 [hdf-us] [nd] ellipsis (Rog Orc Mal Cha) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:18424 13:54 -!- rumflump has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15 -!- tacco\unfoog has joined #hardfought 14:24 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 14:29 -!- deadnoob has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:33 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 14:37 [hdf-us] [nh4] spin2team (Luxidream) (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 55668 points, T:15505, killed by a rock troll 15:10 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 15:20 -!- firemonkey has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:25 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 15:25 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 15:25 -!- rumflump has joined #hardfought 15:42 -!- aoei has joined #hardfought 16:22 <[Demo]> so who here knows how to set up dgl? 16:36 -!- StatueSurfer has joined #hardfought 16:36 hey 16:36 Hello StatueSurfer, Welcome to #hardfought 16:36 StatueSurfer: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2018-01-18 02:09 EST: There is an ascension for the current slex version, on the em.slashem.me server. I scored it 12 days ago. Also, that "fake difficulty" can't be all that fake if it constantly causes player characters to die... :D 16:37 i think the fact the only ascension you can cite is your own might indicate a problem... 16:39 well if no other player is good enough to ascend then it means they should try harder, but I can't play the game for them or it wouldn't really be their ascension 16:40 but you (probably) know literally everything about the game 16:41 isn't that true for all other variant developers in regard to their variants too? 16:41 well sure 16:41 however those variants tend to have ascensions by people besides said devs 16:41 yes i know other people have ascended slex 16:42 ? in wizmode you mean? 16:42 at least i think that's happened 16:42 oh it hasn't 16:42 that explains a lot 16:42 well it's a difficult variant 16:44 i mean the thing that drove me toward that opinion was nasty traps 16:44 [hdf-us] [dyn] hothraxxa (Kni Hum Fem Law), 8018 points, T:9420, killed by a soldier, while sleeping 17:03 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 17:03 -!- rikersan has quit [Client Quit] 17:05 helloo+ 17:06 <@riker> o/ 17:07 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:10 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse 17:11 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:37 -!- Kontroll1r has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:37 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:43 <@luxidream> where is double damage for artifacts handled in the code 17:43 <@riker> the flag is in artilist.h iirc 17:44 <@riker> grep the source? 17:48 <@luxidream> A("Grayswandir", SILVER_SABER, (SPFX_RESTR | SPFX_HALRES), 0, 0, 17:48 <@luxidream> so 0,0 means it does double damage? 17:49 <@riker> don't think so 17:49 <@riker> idk though 17:49 <@riker> check the template? 17:50 <@riker> hm, it's not where I thought it was 17:52 -!- StatueSurfer has joined #hardfought 17:55 @luxidream If an artifact in the source is set to deal +0 additional damage, it means double damage 17:55 This is likely why vorpal has +1 to damage 17:56 because it's basically no bonus, and prevents x2 17:56 I have also been pondering if Grayswandir was meant to be non-special aside from granting hallucination 17:56 and that the developer who added it failed to realize that the +0 to damage would make it do double damage vs all 17:56 *hallucination resistance 17:57 <@luxidream> you're right, that is odd 17:58 <@riker> imo -1 would make more sense for that 17:58 i figured it was a just the token "good" lawful artifact 17:58 <@riker> i.e. 0 is +0, -1 is 2x damage 17:58 it would 17:58 like how stormbringer is for chaotics 17:59 StatueSurfer: But it is superior to everything 17:59 I thought Excal was supposed to be the good lawful artifact 17:59 Grayswandir is *strictly superior* to Demonane 17:59 *Demonbane 18:00 And, while not strictly so, is clearly superior to a lot of other artis 18:01 yeah okay 18:02 still, you'd think if it was a bug they would've fixed it by now 18:02 <@riker> !role dnh 18:02 @riker: ranger 18:02 <@riker> !race dnh 18:02 @riker: yuki-onna 18:02 weird the wiki doesn't say when it was added 18:02 <@riker> !role dnh 18:02 @riker: anachrononaut 18:02 StatueSurfer: Only if the person who added it was made aware of it 18:02 <@riker> !role dnh 18:02 @riker: troubadour 18:02 <@riker> k can do that 18:02 Yeenoghu had a touch of death for like 2 major versions and several minor ones 18:02 Despite clearly being a bug from the developers' POV 18:03 i guess 18:05 <@luxidream> now to find a good IDE for 18:06 <@luxidream> C 18:06 emacs 18:06 :) 18:06 what for? 18:07 are you going to do a nethack variant 18:07 like all the cool kids do these days 18:07 <@luxidream> probably won't make a variant 18:07 <@luxidream> just want to play around with the code 18:07 "probably" 18:07 I see 18:08 +0 bonus on artifacts causes it to deal double damage <-- wat 18:08 I suggest using the NH4 codebase, or one of its derivatives, if you're going to mess around with it 18:08 <@luxidream> yeah, I remember you telling me that 18:09 @luxidream if you want to toy with vanilla, I'll take patches! 18:09 I did? 18:09 But yeah 18:09 It is an advice I give to peopel :P 18:09 Don't remember giving it to you, but yeah, I've told earenndil it among others 18:10 they should update vorpal to deal double damage to creatures with heads 18:10 <@luxidream> that's a lot of creatures 18:10 or make it deal critical hits 18:10 3x-4x damage or so every 1/8 hits 18:10 <@luxidream> I know it's kind of the worst crowning gift right now, but that's a bit of a stretch 18:11 basically, a similar effect, that isn't a dice roll when used against the player 18:11 which is kind of unfair 18:11 are you getting crowned a lot 18:11 <@luxidream> yes, actually 18:11 <@luxidream> not all of us can realiably win the resistance lottery 18:12 <@luxidream> *reliably 18:12 unlike most players, luxidream actually likes getting crowned 18:12 due to realible resistances 18:12 and it's not like you need prayers later anyway 18:12 i need prayers so my deity will give me spellbooks 18:12 * FIQ gives StatueSurfer a magic marker 18:12 FIQ: YANI: replace the "You hit the foo!" with "Your Vorpal Blade goes snicker-snack!" when that happens. And find something different for the almost never seen neutral crowning message while already wielding Vorpal Blade. 18:13 aosdict: make it do a crit whenever that message happens :P 18:13 same with tsurugi perhaps 18:13 <@luxidream> your tsurugi goes snicker-snack? :p 18:13 maybe make crowning actually desirable for people who aren't Luxidream 18:13 would be interesting if the tsurugi were bloodthirsty 18:14 well basically 18:14 the idea I had 18:14 was just to make it more fair vs players 18:14 I have no other issues with the arti currently 18:14 well, artis 18:15 Yeah, I agree, it's a good idea to make it symmetric, non-YAADy, and still powerful in the player's hands. 18:15 it is one of the rare cases where vanilla is fully symmetric 18:15 which is actually detrimental here 18:16 gameplay-wise 18:17 what's the death message if a player dies to the vorpal blade? 18:17 <@luxidream> Vorpal Blade decapitates you! 18:17 <@luxidream> You die...etc 18:17 i mean like the cause of death 18:17 decapacitated by Vorpal Blade IIRC 18:17 on the end scren 18:18 <@luxidream> no, I don't think so. tsurugi bisection just displays "killed by Ashikaga Takauji" 18:19 <@luxidream> is vorpal blade any different? 18:20 hi 18:20 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 18:21 just checked the source 18:21 because Rodney didn't give any deaths 18:21 it just sets damage to twice your max HP 18:21 (probably to work-around half physical damage) 18:22 <@luxidream> "Vorpal Blade slices through half of your neck! You are bleeding out." 18:22 we did determine that 5 people have died from *touching* the vorpal blade, however 18:23 <@luxidream> probably unique deaths 18:23 <@luxidream> deathrobin, etc 18:31 jonadab: so I was going to add #quit to NH4 18:31 how do I make it safe you think? 18:31 make the "yes" option need ! like how save does atm? 18:31 safe as in 18:31 safe from typos 18:32 <@luxidream> some people like the option to type in "yes" or "no" when it comes to peacefuls 18:32 <@luxidream> would that work? 18:33 of course, it won't save developers' finger memory from when they're playing an actual game... 18:33 * aosdict is terrified of automatically doing #qyes in a real game 18:34 I have done that 18:34 in dnethack 18:34 you typed out "yes" 18:34 by accident? 18:35 maybe just add a second, screen-covering prompt that says "Are you REALLY sure you want to quit?" 18:36 with a countdown timer 18:36 and force the player to tab through that to be able to finish 18:36 > a countdown timer 18:36 54321 there goes your save 18:36 why don't you just make nethack real-time then 18:36 can you imagine 18:37 StatueSurfer: the idea is that in development, you automatically quit lots of games without really thinking about it 18:37 so regardless of how difficult you make it to do accidentally, pure finger memory can carry you through it 18:38 hm 18:38 okay 18:52 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:00 !tell K2 pushed a new innovative FIQHack feature: the ability for you to quit the game using #quit 19:00 Will do, FIQ! 19:01 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 19:01 'S' can no longer quit the game 19:01 but I kept the existing "Abandon the game" menu entry, hinting towards using #quit 19:01 kind of an inversion of NH4 vanilla 19:02 allthough the API command is still there, maybe it will come in handy for some purpose 19:02 k 19:02 K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-01-18 19:00 EST: pushed a new innovative FIQHack feature: the ability for you to quit the game using #quit 19:02 allthough it is what introduced the major recoverquit exploits 19:02 :P 19:02 FIQ: My position on #quit is that it should be wizmode-only. 19:02 Why? 19:03 Because anybody who can't figure out how to end the game in NetHack, really needs to try harder. 19:03 The only reason #quit doesn't exist in NH4 is because NitroHack removed it 19:03 for whatever reason 19:03 Yes, but ask yourself why it's even necessary, in a game where death is *stupendously* easy to achieve. 19:03 jonadab: But the way NH4 does it is kind of awkward code-wise 19:03 Sure. 19:03 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 19:03 <@luxidream> you get more points in vanilla if you #quit instead of dying 19:04 <@luxidream> I think the guidebook mentions this 19:04 This is still the case in NH4 19:04 @luxidream Yes, that's _completely_ stupid. 19:04 Also I don't think you do in NH3? 19:04 Only in NH4 19:04 You do get more points for *escaping* though 19:04 But yes, IMO quit should count as a death 19:04 for score purposes 19:05 ‎<‎FIQ‎>‎ The only reason #quit doesn't exist in NH4 is because NitroHack removed it ← in NitroHack's API all the game-ending commands are moved into a separate function for no obvious reason, and don't go via the normal command-asking path 19:05 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2018-01-16 02:34 EST: how can I make KEY_PF1 an alternative keybind for '/'? 19:05 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2018-01-16 02:35 EST: as in, the whatis command 19:05 ais523: Message from K2 at 2018-01-16 23:09 EST: possible bug in NetHack 4 - wielding stormbringer (crowning gift), running into a friendly shopkeeper did not cause stormbringer to attack. its 'bloodthirsty' property when wielded appears to not work. is this intentional? I am aware of this bit: 'Attempting to move into shopkeepers, vault guards, or town guards never attacks them but instead invokes the "chat" function' per 19:05 ais523: Message from K2 at 2018-01-17 14:21 EST: stormbringer issue (nh4): it's not just shopkeepers/guard types - any friendly/peaceful creature you encounter, stormbringers 'bloodthirsty' behavior does not engage 19:05 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2018-01-18 08:29 EST: So I got an annoying bug earlier that was made harder for 2 reasons. 1: I was stupid and messed up the desync detector error handler. Easily fixed. 2: For whatever reason, savemap.pl doesn't actually save all savemaps -- notably not MTAG_FLAGS which is the one I had issues with. I ended up counting the bytes by hand and figured out the issue, but why is savemap.pl not working here? 19:06 K2: according to NH4's philosophy, Stormbringer's drawback needs replacing with something else (because it would be prevented by a good interface); I haven't really found a drawback for I like yet though so for the time being it doesn't have one 19:06 aggravate monster? 19:07 AceHack does that 19:07 but it isn't really woth enough 19:07 *worth 19:07 gotcha 19:07 also Excalibur should probably grant aggravate monster 19:07 fiqhack's variant of it 19:07 FIQ: I didn't write savemap and don't know much about it, I did modify it to understand a few special commetns 19:07 as a real drawback replacing the "monsters that can't usually track you can do so if wielding excal" 19:07 I think it relies on a fairly rigid structure to the restore code 19:08 so if it's miscounting you might want to see where it's miscounting and add a comment or two to correct the count 19:08 ais523: but it isn't just miscounting 19:08 it's omitting it alltogether 19:08 and a bunch of others 19:08 FIQ: as for KEY_PF1, how is that any different from regular keys? 19:08 also savemap omits anything it doesn't understand 19:08 ais523: KEY_PF1 is a curses constant 19:08 I want to map it as a default mapping ingame 19:08 oh, I see, and the default mappings are communicated from the server 19:09 I blame daniel_t 19:09 or at least make a good way to teach curses to parse a '/' map suggestion to KEY_PF1 19:09 does the engine allow for values > 256? if so you could just use the numerical value of the constant 19:09 as a valid alternative 19:09 alternatively you could tell the client to automatically add KEY_PF1 as an alternative keybind if it sees / as a default 19:09 that sort of adjustment is done for a few other cases too 19:09 ...as I said :P 19:09 (this would affect the default keybinds only) 19:09 right, I know that already 19:11 this is how FIQHack's 4.3.0 savemap looks like: http://home.fiq.se/savemap.txt 19:11 ais523: Have you seen what Fourk does to Stormbringer? 19:11 jonadab: no 19:11 there is several save maps, including MTAG_FLAGS; that it doesn't even mention in first place 19:11 Wielding it causes peaceful and tame monsters to consider you an attackable target. 19:11 (Unwielding it turns this back off.) 19:11 jonadab: I was considering that 19:11 it's like conflict but only for itself 19:11 Yes. 19:11 *for yourself 19:11 More or less. 19:12 it strikes me that giving Stormy to a monster might be abusable 19:12 asymmetrical attacks tend to lead to something dying quickly 19:12 I am pretty sure stormprone doesn't even work on monsters 19:12 in 4k 19:12 I may not have implemented that yet, yeah. 19:12 It'll probably happen when I rebase onto FIQHack. 19:12 <@luxidream> sorry, but is there any way to move boulders in nh4 while hallucinating 19:13 don't hallucinate 19:13 is this nh4 only or any nh4-derivative? 19:13 I blame uim 19:13 <@luxidream> seriously? 19:13 hmm, this is a side effect of uim, but it isn't a bug; it might be a misfeatue 19:13 *misfeature 19:13 and by that I mean ais523 19:13 Seems like that would be a problem with permahallu. 19:13 one intended outcome of the uim changes are so that your character will interact with map squares based on character knowledge of them 19:14 and your character doesn't know there's a boulder there, so they can't push it 19:14 I agree that this might be a problem in gameplay terms, though 19:14 Shouldn't running into it make you aware it's there? 19:14 any suggestions on a good fix? 19:14 At least temporarily? 19:14 jonadab: not with the way hallu works in NetHack, unless you want to make boulders a special case (which I wouldn't be opposed to) 19:14 ais523: don't hallucinate boulders, or let players move them anyway 19:14 if you're hallucinating you don't know it's a boulder you ran into 19:15 you think it's a sword or something 19:15 by stumbling into them? 19:15 Ah. 19:15 and then get confused when you can't get next to it to pick it up 19:15 <@luxidream> it says "there's not enough room to move around the boulder" 19:15 lol 19:15 YASI: have this actually cause confusion status. 19:15 OK, now /that/ is a bug 19:15 that's great 19:15 or, maybe not? 19:15 um it clearly is 19:15 it does actually make some sort of sense in the hallu context, although it sohuldn't be saying "boulder" 19:15 it should be Ooph! You move into something hard 19:15 I mean, it might be an accidental feature (other than the item name) 19:15 assuming uim *is working correctly* 19:16 FIQ: yes 19:16 (it's still a bad feature, but this isn't just that, it's outright broken) 19:16 "There's not enough room to move around the tin opener." 19:16 I admit that the outcomes from the uim code have more resemblence to those of a random number generator than those of a roguelike command parser sometimes… 19:16 uim in general has tons of issues with boulders 19:16 (oddly, just a few weeks ago I was thinking "huh, haven't seen a uim bug in a while, I wonder if we've found them all yet") 19:17 ais523: there was also a YANI that hallu should cause statues to be seen as monsters, and be seen performing (nonsense) actions. 19:17 ais523: no we have not 19:17 there is s till the bug where farmoving moves the boulder 19:17 but not the player 19:17 *still 19:17 jonadab: I like that YANI but I don't plan on implementing it or adding it to a variant I control 19:17 FIQ: oh wow, it's been that long without a fix? 19:17 Right, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. 19:17 ais523: also, your uim refactor has still caused less bugs than my replay refactor, I blame not really understanding the save system that well :P 19:17 It's funny though. 19:17 ais523: yes 19:18 admittedly this is another case where it isn't clear whether it should move both the boulder and player, or neither 19:18 <@luxidream> while we're on bugs, if you eat a tin off the floor in NH4 and there are multiple items on the floor, NH4 forces you to select the tin to eat for every turn that you're trying to open it 19:18 I'm pretty tired atm, anyway, working on uim code right now is probably not the best of ideas as the odds are about 50:50 that I'd make it more buggy or less buggy 19:18 (also replay used to work mostly OK for a while, my recent attempt at fixing severe desyncs in older saves that the game engine failed to catch itself led to a host of new issues..) 19:19 @luxidream: gah, as soon as you said that I knew exactly why it had happened but it's surprisingly hard to fi 19:19 *fix 19:19 ok that sounds like a simple fix 19:19 the tin thing 19:19 FIQ: really? what if there are two partly eaten tins on the floor? 19:19 it is action_incomplete shenanigans 19:19 <[Demo]> rebase vanilla onto slex 19:19 ais523: ? 19:20 you choose tins just like you choose corpses 19:20 no additional prompts 19:20 or, hmm, do we still have victual as a global? 19:20 if so then it's just an action_incomplete issue 19:20 or more precise, continue_message 19:20 FIQ: see, this is why I shouldn't code when I'm tired :-P 19:20 yes, we have turnstate.continue_message 19:20 [Demo]: that is at least easier than the other way round 19:20 and in fact I have abused it 19:20 to prevent "This chest is locked" spam when autounlocking them 19:20 presumably you'd want to make a slex with the newest features from vanilla? (as that's what the result of the rebase would be) 19:21 FIQ: that's the opposite of an abuse, you're continuing an action, you don't want to produce a message for it because there's been one already 19:21 which is exactly what the variable is for 19:21 ais523: indeed 19:21 but I got the impression that you wanted it to go away 19:21 hence "abuse", i.e. increasing usage of it :P 19:21 likewise, in the tin case, we don't want to ask which tin to eat because we've asked already 19:21 <[Demo]> I have no idea I just wanted to say something dumb 19:22 ais523: but that's just lastarg.obj 19:22 err, that is muse... I meant lastarg.invlet 19:22 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: sorry for my connection] 19:22 [hdf-us] [nd] ellipsis (Rog Orc Mal Cha) polymorphed his first object, on T:21741 19:22 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 19:22 [Demo]: rebase Slash'EM onto FIQHack. 19:22 ais523: but that's just lastarg.obj 19:22 err, that is muse... I meant lastarg.invlet 19:23 wait 19:23 that makes no sense 19:23 FIQ: lastarg controls what we're applying the action to 19:23 it is utracked_obj or whatever it's called 19:23 which is what I thought the problem was 19:23 that and victual-and-friends (i.e. utracked) 19:23 the thing that tracks occupation obj 19:24 just like eating 19:24 it's utracked that I'd ideally like to get rid of (although it might not be possible to do so so we might have to keep it), not continue_message 19:24 continue_message just determines whether you get a message for the multi-turn action, or not because you've already seen it, that makes perfect sense as a concept 19:25 hm 19:25 this reminds me a bit of in_use 19:26 I think in_use would make sense to merge with ttos_wand 19:26 track a single object during usage, in case something destroys it 19:29 ais523: is there a version of NetHack 4 that includes livelogging? 19:29 K2: no, although it shouldn't be that hard to implement it 19:29 I spot evil tabs in this code 19:29 I'm just not really familiar with the livelog patch 19:29 there is a livelog nethack4 branch I think 19:30 ok. heard a runor that there was such a fabled version 19:30 now would not be a good time to merge it, but I have no opposition to adding it, assuming that the code isn't terrible 19:31 one problem is that NitroHack (thus NH4) has a similar feature called "historic events", but it's just sufficiently different that using one to implement the other would likely cause a lot of unwanted results 19:31 it is how said patch works 19:31 but it isn't a 1:1 mapping 19:32 it basically adds a flag to historic_event 19:32 for whether or not to livelog it 19:32 there is also a seperate "add to livelog" 19:32 if you want to not add it to the history 19:34 ais523: ok so there is a potential issue 19:34 with occupation stuff 19:34 there is 2 eating occupations 19:34 eating 19:34 and opening a tin 19:35 they both go through codepaths that start with doeat 19:35 but use different occupation values 19:35 meaning that you can partially eat some food 19:35 then also do it with a tin 19:35 ? 19:35 and there is a chance that the game is confused about which one you were actually doing 19:36 if items are teleported around 19:36 ooh, I see 19:36 (or if you are) 19:36 can you have a partially eaten tin? if not, utracked should be able to distinguish them 19:36 ais523: [backscroll] boulders are still moveable in vanilla. 19:36 will flags.occupation hold the correct occupation? 19:37 I'm not really sure how flags.occupation is used, it seems to be broken when I messed with it a while back for travel to <> 19:37 (was having issues making multiturn actions that turned out to be NitroHack forcing <> to not be multiturn actions for some reason?) 19:37 ais523: basically 19:38 some doeat code 19:39 aosdict: I know; the uim change was intended to add consistent rules for this sort of thing, maybe they were a bit /too/ consistent 19:39 people seem to be playing vanilla nh4 more these days 19:39 FIQ: I believe flags.occupation is accurate and can be used 19:39 rumflump: maybe because its development picked up pace from very slow, to merely slow 19:39 the odds of bugs being fixed have gone way up, that's helpful 19:40 (although it's weird to be happening now, because I normally tell people who ask me to recommend a variant to go play FIQHack instead) 19:41 fh used to be a lot closer to 343 19:41 now it's another variant you have to "learn", maybe, so thus fallback happens to nh4? 19:41 or just the pickedup pace 19:43 hm 19:43 I am finding this floor food logic really hard to read 19:44 rumflump: it hasn't been that close to nh4 for quite a while 19:44 <@luxidream> rumflump: people meaning me? 19:44 it was arguably the most played variant for the last few months regardless 19:44 and k2! and some rando 19:44 and is still played a lot 19:45 FIQ: FIQHack is close to where NH4 wants to be, as opposed to where it is 19:45 urgh 19:45 can't figure out how this thing even works for regular food 19:45 but not for tins 19:45 there is this check 19:45 if (!turnstate.continue_message && obj_with_u(u.utracked[tos_food])) 19:45 otmp = u.utracked[tos_food]; 19:45 but it shouldn't do anything for objects on the floo 19:46 r 19:46 obj_with_u allows objects on the floor 19:46 nethack 4 needed some love 19:46 I believe the check is "this item is in your inventory or on the floor beneath you" 19:46 livelogging helps others become more aware of the game imo 19:46 K2: NH4.4 is probably going to be based on FIQHack, with me reverting the changes I don't like (assuming ther are any) 19:46 they can see whats happening 19:47 ais523: oh, so the fact that it *also* checks the floor elsewhere alongside obj_with_u is just redundant? 19:47 because that is what made me assume obj_with_u was basically a redundant carrying :D 19:47 <[Demo]> so its a bit more active now 19:47 FIQ: yes, sounds redundant 19:47 <[Demo]> trying to set up dgl 19:47 so nh4 wont be the vanilla version anymore? it'll become fiqhack lite? 19:47 the idea of obj_with_u is that it checks whether you're close enough to an object to continue acting on it if something changes, typically in an occupation 19:48 ok 19:48 <[Demo]> do I need the ncurses library in my chroot? 19:48 K2: it'll probably still be vanilla but with things like FIQHack's AI 19:48 so then it is clear what the issue is 19:48 K2: ais523 disagrees with several of my gameplay changes 19:48 but also agrees with a fair share of it 19:48 [Demo]: you need terminal definitions in your chroot; if you're on Linux they are normally shipped along with ncurses 19:48 ah 19:48 FIQ: right, I probably wouldn't have FIQHack zombies, for example 19:49 they aren't necessarily a bad thing but they're outside NH4's vision, so I'd revert them in order to stay closer to my idea for NH4 19:49 <[Demo]> uh hmm 19:50 <@luxidream> is there some way to always pull up the menu whenever you eat something, even if there's only one item 19:50 on Debian, basic ncurses has support for (and definitions for) a few common terminals, there's a package ncurses-term which is a full collection of information on how to communicate with even some really exotic terminals 19:50 <[Demo]> might need to rerun the setup script for dgl after installing some more things 19:50 @luxidream I had a similar issue when making the getobj patch -- wasn't sure how I'd do taht 19:51 K2: I have a livelog branch in my NH4 repo. 19:51 it's a difficult task controls-wise, ideally you'd just add the floor items to the menu but what would the bindings me? 19:51 Feature branch. 19:51 incidentally, many roguelikes fix the UI for this and other cases by disallowing placing multiple items on the same square of the floor 19:51 if you try to make a stash the extra items just bounce off 19:51 I think maybe I should add "Floor Items/Dungeon Traps/Dungeon Featurs: , - foo" 19:51 in that case 19:51 to the ? menu 19:51 FIQ: I can see using bindings like ",a", ",b", etc. 19:52 although the client code isn't set up for that at all 19:52 (this is, of course, just another argument for 21slot…) 19:52 ais523: right, if I wanted to be windowport-friendly, I'd probably just list a single accelerator, ',' 19:53 <[Demo]> son of a bitch 19:53 with the exact thing if there is one, otherwise "something on the floor" 19:53 <[Demo]> I have libncurses5 installed it just isnt setting up the terminfo for it 19:53 that would be for 3.6.x getobj at least 19:53 ais523: Disallowing multiple items per tile would be a bad fit for NetHack. 19:53 ais523: my getobj mail was ignored, wasn't it :P 19:53 not surprised 19:54 that is what I expected 19:54 For reasons I discussed on /r/roguelikedev reacently when a fledgling developer asked about it. 19:54 (It works for some games, not others; I discussed the difference.) 19:54 but I figured it might be of some value to variant devs anyway 19:54 which is why I published it on my wikipage 19:54 ‎<‎jonadab‎>‎ ais523: Disallowing multiple items per tile would be a bad fit for NetHack. ← agreed 19:55 although it'd be a fun way to nerf pudding farming 19:55 <[Demo]> probably a slex nasty trap effect 19:55 [Demo]: the terminfo is in the same package but it isn't in the library itself 19:55 it's a separate collection of files 19:55 Thread is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikedev/comments/7okxwl/items_to_stack_or_not_to_stack/ 19:55 jonadab's post, for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikedev/comments/7okxwl/items_to_stack_or_not_to_stack/dsan632/?context=3&st=jcl7rqki&sh=64cf4893 19:55 also on some Linux distros, the terminfo part of curses is in a separate library ("libtinfo"), and "-lncurses" links against both of them 19:56 also, why did Reddit force their new shitty profile style for my profile when I didn't want it? 19:56 I thought they did on everyone 19:56 but for some reason jonadab still has the old one? 19:56 I only know about this because aimake got very confused once when it came across the "this -l option actually links two libraries" definition in /usr/lib 19:56 <[Demo]> am trying to get this set up on debian 19:57 FIQ: profile style? 19:58 jonadab: try to go to my reddit profile 19:58 https://www.reddit.com/user/Fredrik1994/ 19:58 compare it with 19:58 https://www.reddit.com/user/tsadok 19:59 Ah. 19:59 The post history. 19:59 Yours has a metadata banner at the top of each one. 20:00 [hdf-us] [dyn] hothraxxa (Kni Hum Mal Law), 6919 points, T:5486, killed by a troll 20:00 FIQ's profile looks terrible :-( 20:00 yes, that was what I meant 20:00 it is reddit's new shit profile style 20:00 that they apparently forced upon me 20:00 FIQ: Yours also has the old reddit bookmark icon, which I like better; mine has the new one. 20:01 thanks a lot for that reddit, really appreciated 20:02 ais523: this does not work: http://home.fiq.se/eat.c 20:02 the stuff in turnstate.continue_message is what I changed 20:02 occupation is zero at this point 20:02 when continuing an action 20:03 this is similar to what I experienced when I fiddled with <> travel a while back 20:03 my issue is that I can't figure out the occupation 20:04 what it did earlier was that it checked tos_food only and never checked tos_tin at all 20:04 which, as a fix would kind of work... but introduce the issues I mentioned above 20:05 hence why I wanted to check occupation too 20:05 hmm, I didn't write NH4's occupation code 20:05 maybe there's a bug in it 20:06 ais523: the easiest work-around I can think of is to combine tos_food and tos_tin into a single thing 20:07 assuming there's no case where they're simultaneously valid, and I can't think of one, I'm OK with that 20:07 although it'd be nice to fix whatever the bug in occ_* is 20:13 -!- StatueSurfer has joined #hardfought 20:13 the offending code is allmain.c:647 20:13 oh boy offending code 20:14 I remember figuring this out before (double-checked now just in case) but didn't really understand its purpose 20:14 and git blame wasn't helpful (it found the offender, but the commit message was something unrelated IIRC) 20:16 what variant is this 20:16 nh4+derivatives 20:17 <[Demo]> god dgl wont even build on deployment vm 20:18 -!- lorimer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18 FIQ: well it isn't on line 647 in all derivatives, most likely 20:18 line numbers need to be given against a specific version, and often even specific git hash 20:19 i just looked at nh4 source 20:19 and it mentions something called command repeat in that part of the code 20:19 is that the right place 20:19 StatueSurfer: that's the ctrl-A command 20:19 and it sounds like it's possibly the right place, but maybe not 20:20 -!- hpardis has joined #hardfought 20:20 occupations in NH4 are implemented using command repeat internally 20:20 ais523: right, I gave it for vanilla 20:20 nh4 vanilla that is 20:21 2b0e1366a3bd6e7a3eee8d277592eb263e86c558 20:21 this commit 20:21 okay so occupations appear to be... command-based actions that take multiple turns? 20:21 StatueSurfer: yes; classic examples are things like "eat" or "read spellbook" 20:21 StatueSurfer: occupations are multi-turn actions, yes 20:21 okay 20:22 there's also a connotation of them being interruptible 20:22 NH3 calls them "multi" 20:22 NH4 "occupation" 20:22 FIQ: no, "multi" is helplessness, not occupation 20:22 NH3 calls occupations occupations, too, that's where the name comes from 20:22 Isn't multi both? 20:22 Ah 20:22 it's just that NH3 uses multi a lot when it really shouldn't 20:23 FIQ: anyway, the idea of that line is that a function should be deemed to not set an occupation unless it sets it explicitly, command functions are supposed to set their occupation flag each time they're called 20:23 or at least, it's next to two other lines that work like that 20:23 however, that presumably isn't the case in practice 20:23 okay so assuming this is nh4 source, the line seems to just set a flag 20:24 StatueSurfer: you're on the wrong commit I think 20:24 and the surrounding code seems properly syntaxed 20:24 okay probably 20:24 ais523: it unsets occupations at the beginning of an action, meaning commands themselves has no chance to actually r ead them 20:24 FIQ: at least, this is something that's supposed to be defined as part of the command API; if devs are unclear on how that works, it'd at least explain why it's acting inconsistently 20:24 *read 20:24 FIQ: ooh, haha 20:24 somehow I didn't think of that at all 20:25 (usual disclaimers about coding when tired apply here…) 20:25 FIQ: and now you know why I don't review your patches in this state :-D 20:25 heh 20:25 it gave me a 404 when i pasted in FIQ's commit number 20:25 StatueSurfer: there is nothing wrong with the syntax 20:26 the issue is what I said just now 20:26 the occupation stuff is cleared at the start of your action 20:26 okay 20:26 StatueSurfer: pasted where? are you using a non-official NH4 repository? 20:26 maybe? 20:26 meaning there is no way for the game to check what the player was actually doing 20:26 you'll want to look in either fiq's fiq4 repository or my NH4 repository 20:26 mine isn't available over HTTP so 404 would be a very surprising result 20:26 (given that it's an HTTP error code) 20:27 or, well, it's available over HTTP but not in a web browser, only via git's internal HTTP transport 20:27 are you on github 20:27 no 20:27 my repo is 20:27 you can use that 20:27 I used to use gitorious, but when it did I moved to self-hosting 20:27 fiq4 is probably more convenient if you're a github fan 20:27 note that it is actually called nethack4, not fiq4 20:27 oh FredrIQ 20:27 why didn't i realize immediately that was FIQ 20:27 fiq4 is just what it's called in ais523's remote list I suppose 20:28 and my nethack4/master branch on my local fiqhack repository is also called fiq4 20:28 oh hey it's the exact same line as the other repo 20:28 FIQ: it's a convenient shorthand for "your version of NH4" 20:28 ais523: I mean, yes :P 20:28 we call it that in #nethack4 regularly 20:28 I actually have no idea what its "official" name is 20:28 right 20:29 there is no official name 20:29 since I am not a nethack4 developer 20:29 I just contribute to it 20:29 NH4's intended to be fairly flexible with who its devs are 20:29 <[Demo]> ok this is dumb 20:29 i can't even find the commit 20:29 if I stop updating it the idea is that anyone else can just take over, I've tried to leave everything relevant around 20:29 StatueSurfer: it does not matter 20:29 okay 20:30 I didn't expect allmain to have changed in forever 20:30 pretty much the only advantage I have is control of the nethack4.org domain name and the MOTD server 20:30 <[Demo]> https://i.imgur.com/JhUIqOY.png cannot get beyond this point in either vm with dgl setup 20:30 FIQ: it handles the start of game loading, that changes more often than you'd expect 20:31 [Demo]: did you copy the symlink over? often names like ".so.5" are symlinks to a more specific ".so.5.lotsofnumbershere" 20:31 ais523: before my watchmode stuff, the last change to that file was in 2015 20:31 <[Demo]> does the script not do that for me? 20:31 [Demo]: I remember having bizarre issues with dgl setup 20:32 don't remember what I did to solve it, IIRC I was merely just not following the instructions properly 20:32 because they were vague 20:32 oh oops i was on the right commit all along 20:32 <[Demo]> the instructions are really bad 20:33 <[Demo]> dgl is awful and i hate it and i have no idea how im gonna make it work 20:34 !who 20:34 FIQ: [hdf-us] No current players 20:34 FIQ: [hdf-eu] No current players 20:34 hm 20:34 that is rare 20:35 rumflump: https://scoreboard.xd.cm/recent.fh.html 20:35 FIQ: I guess I assume it gets changed more often because it's one of the files I spend the most time looking at for the TAS 20:35 you are right, fiqhack has actually been played significantly less in the last week or so 20:35 mostly because it defines the order in which things happen during a turn, which is really crucial when you're trying to reach 2003 20:36 <[Demo]> well if i stick libncurses.so.5 in /lib of the chroot I can launch dnethack 20:36 well, last 1½ weeks 20:36 rumflump: but meh 20:36 activity come and go 20:36 <[Demo]> but then its just waiting for fcntl lock on perm 20:36 oh yeah that error is fun 20:37 <[Demo]> fuck it a lot i dont know what it means 20:37 does perm actually exist? 20:37 it means hackdir is set up incorrectly 20:37 FIQ: oh, that would make sense 20:37 well, not necessarily, but it is almost always the problem 20:37 as perm is the first file there it checks 20:37 <[Demo]> ah 20:37 my favorite error is when the "dungeon" is out of date 20:37 in my experience 20:37 presumably if you fixed that you'd just get an error about some other file 20:37 especially the game actually compiles, but then crashes when you try to actually play 20:37 ais523: maybe it should check the environment for its files in general 20:38 <[Demo]> well perm exists 20:38 or for sysconf or something 20:38 FIQ: C-INTERCAL checks in a huge number of places for its files 20:38 basically some kind of check for hackdir being set up properly 20:38 and if not, complain 20:38 in order to try to solve this sort of problem 20:38 [Demo]: try this 20:38 HACKDIR=/path/to/hackdir game 20:38 NH4 uses aimake to tell the installed executable where it installed the files 20:38 if it works 20:39 you know the problem 20:39 I had a very similar problem in vanilla recently, which was making development hard 20:39 I've never been able to consistently solve this issue whenever I have it 20:39 turns out that what happened recently is that I accidentally deleted the makefiles so I restored them from a backup, but from the wrong backup… 20:39 mostly because I don't really understand NH3's build system 20:39 <[Demo]> might be because dnh doesnt like being run from outside the hackdir 20:40 <[Demo]> like if you try to run the executable from any location but hackdir it does that 20:40 [Demo]: if you are using the GNUmakefile from kerio 20:40 <[Demo]> yeah i am 20:40 this issue seems to appear basically 100% of hjte time 20:40 *the time 20:40 I don't know why, I haven't cared enough to check why 20:40 I just set HACKDIR manually 20:40 since I very rarely run dnh locally 20:41 <[Demo]> set it manually where? 20:41 like 20:41 when you launch the game 20:41 HACKDIR=path/to/hackdir dnethack 20:41 <[Demo]> you can specify that as an option? 20:41 ^ use this to start 20:41 if you are on windows, sorry I can't help 20:42 the above sets a temporary environment variable, $HACKDIR 20:42 which the game will use 20:42 <[Demo]> ah 20:42 FIQ: kerio sent me an NH4 patch years ago which I still haven't accepted 20:43 intended to make configuring/overriding directories easier from the command line 20:43 apparently HACKDIR isn't set in GNUmakefile in first place 20:43 that might be why 20:43 I just suddenly had a suspicion that this is an attempt to work around deficiencies of his makefile… 20:43 ais523: no 20:43 his NH4 makefile works fine 20:43 his dnethack makefile is ancient by comparision 20:44 and he knows it has issues 20:44 he just hasn't cared 20:44 well, his NH4 makefile lacks the ability to build with tiles, or the SDL build 20:44 but that is less of a bug and more just something he didn't care for 20:45 also I was able to get it to work in windows a year ago-ish, but forgot to save my progress 20:45 which is more than I can say for the aimake issues the game had P 20:45 *:P 20:46 -!- hothraxxa has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:46 honestly though, I mostly just use the makefile for speed 20:46 because I find it annoying when the compilation process takes 5-10 minutes 20:46 every time I do a tiny fix 20:47 <[Demo]> https://i.imgur.com/7c7sBC1.png 20:47 [Demo]: oh you're running it in a chroot 20:47 just set up HACKDIR properly in the makefile then 20:47 <[Demo]> will it somehow preserve it? 20:48 sec 20:48 I am trying something 20:49 I think this will fix the issue 20:50 FIQ: aimake actually has an option for installing to a chroot 20:50 that's how nethack4.org's deploy process works 20:50 ais523: tell that to Tangles 20:50 iirc he had weird issues with setting up fourk and nethack4 on hardfought 20:51 I have weird issues whenever I set up anything, I think 20:52 yeah this worked 20:53 <[Demo]> eh? 20:53 [Demo]: try this: make GAMEDIR (the hackdir) an absolute directory, and add this line: CPPFLAGS += -DHACKDIR=\"$(GAMEDIR)\" 20:53 below CPPFLAGS += -DDLB 20:53 it might not be the "correct" solution 20:53 but eh, I don't know NH3's build system 20:53 and this worked 20:53 FIQ: that's basically what aimake does, except by hand 20:53 so I'd expect it to work 20:54 [Demo]: GAMEDIR is defined on line 1 in the GNUmakefile 20:55 [Demo]: and after you're done, make cleandeps before make 20:55 because it will not realize that it needs to rebuild 20:55 <[Demo]> ok 20:55 <[Demo]> yeah didnt rebuild 20:56 jonadab: thanks 20:57 K2: be careful 20:57 kid fell asleep on my arm, couldnt move for awhile 20:57 I don't think that branch has channelization 20:57 cant feel my arm 20:57 and remember 20:57 <[Demo]> uhh yeah no cigar 20:57 oh i'm not even going to attempt it 20:57 you will need to *merge* it, not jhust switch it 20:57 *just 20:57 <[Demo]> dnh wont build now heh 20:57 because that would undo the save error on hdf 20:57 i'm not going to try FIQ 20:57 try what 20:58 i have enough issues mucking around with nh3 based variants 20:58 <[Demo]> https://i.imgur.com/mj67biZ.png heh 20:58 K2: mind you, the default setup for that livelog branch will not add the bones kills announcements 20:58 apparently whoever added livelog thought it was too hard ot shim 20:58 *to 20:58 it really isn't 20:59 -!- hothraxxa has joined #hardfought 20:59 <[Demo]> ok cool 20:59 <[Demo]> escaped the quotes and we're good 21:00 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v hothraxxa] by ChanServ 21:00 [Demo]: I mean, I did tell you to :P 21:00 <[Demo]> son of a bitch 21:00 <[Demo]> i think discord filtered out the escape or something 21:01 lol 21:01 t\e\s\t\ \w\i\t\h\ \a\ \b\u\n\c\h\ \o\f\ \b\a\c\k\s\l\a\s\h\e\s 21:02 it is represented correctly by discord-irc at least 21:02 (rld) 21:02 that's a lot of thrones there FIQ 21:02 quiet you StatueSurfer 21:02 no 21:02 <[Demo]> \"\" hmm 21:02 <[Demo]> oh yeah 21:02 <[Demo]> discord cuts it out from quotes 21:02 \"test\" 21:02 hm 21:02 you're right, it does 21:03 even rld does 21:03 that's unfortunate 21:03 oh well 21:03 [Demo]: just join RLdiscord :P 21:03 that way it's clear that you're on discord 21:04 <[Demo]> no my solution is way better 21:04 <[Demo]> all my irc goes to one server with just me 21:04 <[Demo]> cool now time to try to figure out how to set up ssh for this shit 21:05 that was the easy part 21:05 the hard part was getting dgl to even run 21:05 <[Demo]> ah yeah 21:05 my only hurdle I had with ssh 21:05 was that I tried to allow a blank password 21:05 but failed 21:06 I just gave up and settled on nethack:nethack 21:06 after all it's just a test environment 21:06 my own dgl setup taht is 21:06 *that 21:06 <[Demo]> might stop for tonight 21:06 that reminds me 21:07 I should push a small dgl patch that resets dgl's saved assumption of your terminal size 21:07 to the actual value 21:07 when you are about to start a game 21:08 it keeps the clean no-size-change ttyrecs 21:08 while making it slightly less awkward to change term size for dgl 21:08 especially for PuTTY users 21:09 who can now just resize their window as usual 21:11 [hdf-us] [nd] ellipsis (Rog Orc Mal Cha) killed Croesus, on T:22725 21:13 ais523: anyway so do you think it is a good idea to *not* clear occupation-related things in non-zerotime actions? 21:13 FIQ: some ttyrec viewers can read a size change at the start of a file as showing the size of the terminal 21:13 at least jettyplay, maybe others too (probably termplay does) 21:14 re occupation, the upsides are clear but I'm unclear on what the downsides are 21:14 I guess you could try it and see what breaks 21:14 on fiq4 or fiqhack? 21:14 as in 21:14 are you interested in such a change 21:14 well, if it works and fixes bugs, I'm interested; I don't know that area of the code that well 21:14 neither do I :D 21:14 so I can't speak much as to whether it was well-designed or not 21:15 if I wrote it, given that I don't understand it, it probably wasn't ;-) 21:15 well you said you didn't 21:16 well I don't remember writing it 21:16 but I might have confused that code submission with a different one 21:17 I know someone else did the helplessness rewrite, I can't remember if they did occupations too 21:17 * ais523 vaguely ponders some sort of "ignore everything I say" status for handling tiredness in an easily understandable way 21:19 pushed a bunch of fixes to fiq4 21:20 ais523: incidentally, this also ough to make turnstate.continue_message redundant with incomplete 21:20 *ought 21:20 but I will not bother with that for now 21:20 FIQ: OK, I won't review them now for obvious reasons 21:20 right 21:22 afk sleep 21:24 * StatueSurfer zaps a wand of sleep at ais523 21:24 :) 21:26 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 21:27 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 21:30 <@luxidream> drinks a potion of sleep 21:30 <@luxidream> yawns. 21:30 <[Demo]> why cant i credit clone irl? 21:31 <@luxidream> do you have a dog 21:32 real life shopkeepers are a bit less greedy than their nethack counterparts 21:32 it would work well with a sufficiently trained dog. 21:33 yes 21:33 train your dog to sneak into a store, open the register, take out some money, close and lock the register, and then sneak back out and close the door behind them 21:36 <@luxidream> drop your wallet, ask for in store credit 21:36 <@luxidream> when the shopkeeper isn't looking your dog takes your wallet outside 21:36 yeah that's gonna work 21:36 <@luxidream> repeat until you have thousands of dollars of in-store credit 21:37 i'm sure leaving your wallet behind and asking for in-store credit wouldn't look suspicious at all 21:38 <@luxidream> you could also bring in a pet dragon who could kill the shopkeeper for you 21:38 <@luxidream> law enforcement doesn't get mad if it wasn't you! 21:38 lemme send in my pet komodo dragon 21:39 and hope it doesn't kill me next 21:39 that's why villains use bees, wolves, and tarot cards 21:39 maximum deniability 21:39 better idea: repeatedly "return" an item for store credit 21:39 make copies of the receipt 21:40 steal the item 21:42 <@luxidream> pick up a gemstone in a jewelry shop. identify it. find out it's worthless glass. watch as the price instantly drops to 10 cents 21:43 negotiation is certainly a lost art 21:43 except when your pet archon is nearby 21:43 <@luxidream> rumflump: what about wands? 21:44 please we all know magic is fake 21:44 nothing in particular 21:44 you have a lot of them 21:44 <@luxidream> oh. they're all garbage 21:44 it's just a coincidence that guy abruptly died after the bad guy pointed a stick at him 21:46 <[Demo]> god i love capitalism 21:47 oh boy where's this gonna go 21:47 i downloaded dwarf fortress 21:48 at the start 21:48 the interface is your greatest enemy 21:48 I played it some in version 42.something 21:49 it's at 44.05 now 21:49 <@luxidream> seriously though 21:49 wonder if dwarf therapist is a core feature yet 21:49 oh i thought you were saying this was the first time 21:49 <@luxidream> what made DF so popular 21:49 the multitude of sadistic things you can do to your dwarves 21:49 or just in general 21:50 it was SimCity, but better, and a lot of us grew up on simcity? 21:50 it's like minecraft with drunk people and an awful UI 21:50 I can't stand minecraft, doing things a block at a time myself 21:50 such a downgrade after designating dozens of jobs for dwarves to fill (when they're not partying) 21:53 it's cool that you can partially fail and keep playing. lose a few citizens, and feel their loss dearly, but rebuild 21:54 or intentionally drown them in lava, laugh maniacally, and just keep playing 22:05 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:54 -!- rumflump has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06 [hdf-us] [fh] bouquet (Kni Dwa Fem Law), 28974 points, T:2065, killed by a large dog, while sleeping 23:08 [hdf-us] [nd] bouquet (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 11 points, T:77, killed by a falling rock 23:13 -!- rumflump has joined #hardfought 23:31 -!- aeoi has joined #hardfought 23:34 yeah, the dwarf fortress interface is terrible, even for something as simple as building a staircase 23:34 -!- aoei has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:39 [hdf-us] [nd] bouquet (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 1660 points, T:2208, killed by a giant ant 23:43 [hdf-us] [nd] bouquet (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 185 points, T:533, killed by a small mimic 23:49 [hdf-us] [nh4] K2 (k2) (Bar Hum Fem Cha), 276780 points, T:44604, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/k/k2/nethack4/dumplog/2018-01-19%2004%3A49%3A29%2C%20K2-Bar-Hum-Fem-Cha%2C%20ascended.txt 23:54 -!- hpardis has quit [Quit: Leaving]