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00:55 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] knavery (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 2729 points, T:4318, killed by a white unicorn
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03:40 <nht> "The silver dragon scale mail is much too large for you and would fall off."
03:42 <nht> maybe I can hit demons with it
03:43 <nht> and hope they don't notice it's not made of silver
03:44 <nht> problem solved
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05:28 <LarienTelrunya> aosdict: One of the items on your YANI page inspired me to add a nasty trap to slex that causes a container trap to trigger whenever the player opens any container. Including their main bag of holding. Thanks! :)
05:28 <LarienTelrunya> (Of course, it will happen regardless of whether the container actually is trapped. Every time.)
05:28 <LarienTelrunya> jonadab: EPI ^^
05:30 <LarienTelrunya> aosdict: the "never intentionally polyselfed" conduct... what if you get lycanthropy and don't have the means to cure it in time? Conduct broken or not?
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05:38 <LarienTelrunya> aosdict: just reading your door traps - you know what Nethack really needs? ADOM door traps that instakill you if you don't approach them diagonally. Because every ADOM player loves that. :P
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05:48 <LarienTelrunya> aosdict: clearly, the wand of undead burning should be a wand of fire that only works on undead :P
05:52 <LarienTelrunya> jonadab: is http://jonadab.jumpingcrab.com/pastebin/950.txt the official hall of fame for gamebreaking bugs?
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06:19 <jonadab> LarienTelrunya: No, that's just a log search I did.
06:19 <jonadab> I think they are going to make a bug hall of fame on the wiki.
06:19 <LarienTelrunya> ah, I guess they should use that pastebin then, since it has a couple of entries :)
07:40 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [4k] Tangles (Wiz Syl Fem Cha) entered the Minetown temple, on T:3042
07:51 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh4] test (tinyjim) (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 1228 points, T:9, killed by a jackal
08:08 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [4k] Tangles (Wiz Syl Fem Cha), 15390 points, T:4225, killed by an invisible gnome lord
08:10 <Tangles> cause of death: Autopickup rule "gray stone" does not match "a gray stone"
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08:47 <aosdict> "they" = me apparently
08:49 <aosdict> LarienTelrunya: see this is why polyselfless is so annoying to work with as a conduct. I think I would deem lycanthropy to be unintentional, but of course you *can* intentionally contract it to enjoy the advantages of the beast form. In conclusion, ugh.
08:50 <Tangles> !ping
08:50 <Beholder> Tangles: Pong! 
08:53 <Tangles> hmm....
08:54 <K2> !booze Tangles
08:54 * Beholder passes Tangles a glass of liquid courage, brewed by Arsinoe at 0 degrees Celsius.
08:54 <Tangles> that ping appeared to take 3 minutes from here.
08:54 <K2> !ping
08:54 <Beholder> K2: Pong! 
08:55 <K2> timestamp on my end shows same minute for your !ping
08:55 <K2> weird
08:55 <Tangles> Yeah it's good now. just my third-world internet connection.
08:57 <Tangles> how's things K2?
08:59 <FIQ> morning
08:59 <Tangles> Hi FIQ 
08:59 <FIQ> hi
08:59 <Beholder> Hello FIQ, Welcome to #hardfought
09:00 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 30367 points, T:16084, killed by a wolf
09:02 <K2> i'm ok. staying home with mini-me, school was cancelled due to the snow storm/wind chill we have today
09:03 <K2> how are you Tangles?
09:04 <FIQ> mini-K2
09:04 <K2> :)
09:04 <Tangles> Yeah there was something on the news here about the weather you're getting there.
09:09 <K2> personally i think school could have been open today, but oh well
09:09 <Tangles> nice to spend a day at home with the kid anyway :)
09:09 <K2> no complaints ;)
09:10 <aosdict> how much snow, K2?
09:10 <K2> well its still snowing
09:10 <K2> lemme take a pic
09:17 <K2> https://www.hardfought.org/images/snow.jpg
09:17 <[Demo]> wow
09:17 <[Demo]> thats a lot more snow than here
09:17 <[Demo]> thats like wow
09:17 <[Demo]> more snow than ive ever seen in person
09:17 <Tangles> more than here, too!
09:17 <Tangles> :)
09:17 <[Demo]> most ive seen is maybe a foot but thats definitely more
09:18 <K2> we've had more than this before
09:18 <K2> maybe twice the amount in one storm
09:18 <[Demo]> damn
09:18 <K2> but thats not often
09:20 <K2> had my directv fixed yesterday (coax outside split twice due to water in line freezing) and now it doesnt work again lol
09:20 <K2> too much snow on the dish
09:20 <Tangles> heh
09:20 <K2> no way am i getting up on the roof to clean it
09:20 <K2> i need to get a dish heater
09:20 <[Demo]> monkey a kid up there
09:20 <[Demo]> get em to build snow stairs
09:20 <K2> hah
09:21 <K2> they actually make dish heaters
09:21 <K2> i did not know this until yesterday
09:21 <[Demo]> wow
09:21 <K2> http://icezapper.com/
09:21 <K2> reviews on amazon are good
09:22 <K2> of course even if i had it in hand today nothing i can do yet...
09:22 <K2> on the list for next winter :P
09:23 <aosdict> that snow is just begging to be snowshoed in
09:23 <[Demo]> i like the graphics 😛
09:23 <K2> lol [Demo]
09:23 <K2> aosdict its the dry fluffy type - powder
09:24 <K2> snowshoes wouldnt do you much good in this
09:24 <aosdict> snowshoes are good in powder, I snowshoed through powder a week ago
09:24 <K2> hrm
09:24 <K2> i hate snowshoes
09:25 <K2> unless its wet thick snow
09:25 <aosdict> cross country skis then?
09:25 <K2> i need to learn to ski
09:25 <K2> my wife and her whole family ski, and mini-me has been on skis since she was 22 months
09:26 <K2> but i grew up in oklahoma, so i dont know how
09:26 <K2> tried, but i've spent more time face down in the snow or at the lodge bar than actually upright and moving
09:26 <K2> falling i have down pretty well
09:27 <aosdict> cross country skis aren't the same thing, they're basically for the same thing as snowshoes (crossing deep fresh snow easily)
09:27 <aosdict> though downhill skiing is fun too
09:27 <K2> right
09:28 <K2> but they are still skis and they hate me
09:32 <K2> hah, blast from the past - https://www.hardfought.org/images/hf_servers_11182007.jpg
09:32 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [dyn] hothraxxa (Wiz Orc Mal Cha), 10409 points, T:10507, killed by a flesh golem
09:33 <K2> hothraxxa :(
09:33 <hothraxxa> i prayed. anhur was pleased. that is all.
09:33 <hothraxxa> anhur. orcish for asshole
09:34 <K2> i see yu know orcish
09:35 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 3600 points, T:3945, killed by a rope golem
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09:55 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 954 points, T:2014, killed by a jackal, while fainted from lack of food
09:57 <hothraxxa> The bag sprouts a tongue and flicks your dagger to the floor.
09:57 <hothraxxa> ...
09:59 <hothraxxa> The bag of tricks spits something out.  A - a hexagonal wand.
10:00 <hothraxxa> create monster. who could have guessed
10:01 <[Demo]> heh
10:02 <hothraxxa> The bag exhales a puff of spores.  Oh wow!  Everything looks so cosmic! 
10:02 <hothraxxa> groovy man
10:13 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [dyn] hothraxxa (Wiz Orc Mal Cha), 889 points, T:1325, killed by a giant bat, while fainted from lack of food
10:19 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [un] k2 (Cav Hum Mal Law), 1524 points, T:2204, fell into a pit of iron spikes
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10:22 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a minor update
10:22 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
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10:34 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [un] k2 (Cav Hum Mal Law), 3208 points, T:2876, killed by a gold golem
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10:38 <K2> FIQhack updated (us and eu)
10:38 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-01-05 10:22 EST: pushed a minor update
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10:44 <FIQ> K2: how is mail implemented for nethack-dev on hardfought?
10:45 <K2>              setenv "MAIL" "/mail/%n",
10:45 <K2>              setenv "SIMPLEMAIL" "1",
10:45 <K2>              unlink "/mail/%n"
10:47 <FIQ> ok
10:47 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [un] k2 (Cav Hum Mal Law), 873 points, T:2510, killed by a gnome lord
10:48 <ais523> context is that we think there's potentially a major security bug in simplemail (and a minor one even in pre-dgl mail)
10:48 <ais523> and are trying to work out how to fix it without breaking everything
10:49 <K2> ah ok
10:50 <K2> is it major enough that I should disable mail function for games on the server for now?
10:50 <FIQ> no, it doesn't affect your setup
10:50 <K2> ok
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10:52 <ais523> it's only exploitable if you can run the game executable directly
10:52 <ais523> but it affects the entire system, not just NetHack itself
10:52 <ais523> dgl should be safe as the game executable's only being run by dgl, not by the player
10:53 <FIQ> ais523: btw, currently libnethack/src/mail and nethack/src/mail duplicates the "retrieve the mail filename" logic
10:53 <FIQ> I guess this is better placed in libnethack_common
10:54 <FIQ> (I assume that is its purpose?)
10:54 <ais523> yes
10:54 <FIQ> that means creating a 3rd mail.c file :D
10:54 <K2> 2018 is starting off with a lot of security flaws coming to light
10:54 <ais523> this reminds me, I'd been meaning to change vanilla over to a different model for handling permissions, which would get rid of this sort of problem
10:54 <FIQ> oops, wrong channel
10:55 <K2> are you all aware of the cpu flaw that's made global news?
10:55 <ais523> yes, I've applied a few mitigations
10:55 <FIQ> yes
10:55 <ais523> but am waiting for a kernel patch to fix meltdown, at least
10:55 <ais523> the other one is harder to fix
10:55 <K2> yup
10:55 <K2> just waiting to see how our ESXi servers fare once we're able to patch
10:55 <ais523> it's a good thing that Linux happened to be working on a new security feature already, which randomly happens to fix Meltdown
10:56 <ais523> now they're trying to fast-track finishing it
10:56 <K2> scythe is the other one correct? i cant recall name off top of my head
10:56 <FIQ> wait, there's 2 new flaws?
10:56 <K2> yes
10:56 <FIQ> I only heard of the cache issue
10:56 <K2> one was intel specififc
10:57 <FIQ> yeah
10:57 <FIQ> that is the one I heard of
10:57 <K2> the other supposed;y affects virtually all cpu's
10:57 <K2> spectre
10:57 <K2> thats it
10:58 <K2> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/05/spectre_flaws_explained/
10:58 <K2> one of many stories
10:58 <hothraxxa> will the fix be called bond james bond?
10:58 <K2> hah
10:59 <ais523> spectre variant 2 is really clever
10:59 <ais523> you can basically run arbitrary code in the speculator via seeding the branch predictor with a completely made-up execution path using hash collisions
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11:00 <ais523> the speculator can't write to memory, only read from it, but that still lets you use the speculator to run an arbitrary small program and output a result via warming cache lines
11:01 <ais523> one of the fixes that's being worked on is really interesting too, it involves adding an entirely new CPU instruction via a microcode update (that's a NOP on existing processors) and then persuading compilers to insert uses of it before computed jumps
11:02 <ais523> (another fix that's being worked on is to do all computed jumps via writing the return address to the stack and calling RET, which uses a different predictor that's easier to control)
11:04 <jonadab> Or, we could redesign all processors to use computed jumps that are effectively computed come-from, instead of computed goto.
11:04 <jonadab> No, wait, that would make it worse.
11:22 <hothraxxa> http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/cthulhu-ski-mask-1__605.jpg
11:22 <ais523> computed come-from is really inefficient
11:23 <ais523> I should know, I was one of the first people to implement it, and possibly the first to implement it in a compiled language
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11:36 <jonadab> Wait, was C-intercal the first actual _compiler_ for Intercal?
11:36 <jonadab> I thought "Intercal" (notionally) stood for "compiler with no pronounceable acronym"?
11:37 <ais523> jonadab: the first was written in SPITBOL but COME FROM wasn't part of INTERCAL at the time
11:37 <jonadab> Ah.
11:37 <ais523> it's "compiler language with no pronounceable acronym", though, yes
11:37 <ais523> however, CLC-INTERCAL doesn't compile down to asm
11:38 * jonadab must be the only person who would attempt to pronounce CLWNPA if I saw it written.
11:38 <ais523> it's more a bytecode-like thing, although describing what it's doing as "compiling" is somewhat inaccurate
11:38 <ais523> and "clwnpa" is pretty pronounceable (especially if you put the Welsh interpretation on the w, which is fairly obvious in that context at least if you're British), but it's not an acronym as that isn't a real word
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11:41 <jonadab> Well, a number of words that everyone considers real words _now_, were originally acronyms.  Radar, sonar, laser, etc.
11:41 <ais523> I don't think there's any risk of enough people using INTERCAL's real name for that to happen :-P
11:42 <jonadab> Ah.
11:42 <jonadab> Perhaps not.
11:47 <hothraxxa> dammit. orc town :(
11:48 <hothraxxa> i'm an orc. maybe they'll be friendly
11:48 <hothraxxa> at least i can eat them
12:01 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [dyn] hothraxxa (Wiz Orc Mal Cha), 4412 points, T:4578, killed by an elven spear
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12:06 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 6036 points, T:8970, killed by a jaguar
12:21 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 2061 points, T:3820, killed by a dwarf
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12:33 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 883 points, T:2294, killed by a rabid rat
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12:44 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] knavery (Rog Orc Mal Cha) eschewed atheism, by dropping a dented pot on an altar, on T:5389
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12:59 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 72 points, T:313, killed by a fox
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14:01 <hothraxxa> https://twitter.com/skalnik/status/948998374384025600
14:01 <hothraxxa> for ais523 & jonadab 
14:01 <hothraxxa> oh and k2
14:07 <NCommander> I'm waiting for the first ascension which uses Spectre to read the RNG and predict victory
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14:12 <K2> lol
14:16 <jonadab> NCommander: Maybe someone will use it to be killed by kicking a wand of wishing three times in an hour.
14:18 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed minor fixes
14:18 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
14:18 <NCommander> jonadab, wait, that happened?
14:19 <ais523> yes
14:19 <ais523> look up wowdeath on NAO
14:19 <ais523> it was very much an "I'm doing this because I can" sort of account
14:19 <ais523> (note that this is much easier using fruitnames, but IIRC the account did it "legitimately")
14:20 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 5384 points, T:7020, killed by a soldier ant
14:20 <aosdict> in 3.6 it can't be done using fruitnames, it's all just something weird
14:20 <FIQ> yeah but that's a bug
14:20 <FIQ> should be possible in 3.6.1
14:22 <aosdict> "killed by kicking arrows", checks out
14:22 <aosdict> didn't know that
14:23 <ais523> arrows actually are a projectile weapon though
14:23 <ais523> hmm, do arrows do regular damage if you kick them while wielding a bow?
14:25 <FIQ> wouldn't surprise me
14:25 <FIQ> I think it uses the same codeapth
14:25 <FIQ> *codepath
14:28 <jonadab> Wait, do kicked objects do the same damage as thrown objects, normally?  (That seems not quite right somehow, albeit in a minor way.)
14:28 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 740 points, T:1594, killed by a rabid rat
14:40 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [4k] groovejumper (Wiz Syl Fem Cha) received advice from The Oracle, on T:3190
14:44 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Arc Hum Mal Law), 2289 points, T:2896, killed by a rothe, while sleeping
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14:54 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [slex] Oneiron (Art Ang Fem Law), 230 points, T:442, poisoned by a rotted kobold corpse
14:58 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] HotSauce (Ran Hum Fem Neu), 686 points, T:1484, killed by a contaminated potion
14:59 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [4k] tizakit (Val Hum Fem Neu), 3132 points, T:1508, killed by an iguana
15:00 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [slex] Oneiron (Fai Add Fem Neu), 0 points, T:37, killed by a spore cloud
15:14 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [4k] groovejumper (Wiz Syl Fem Cha), 13635 points, T:6408, killed by a gray unicorn
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16:00 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] HotSauce (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 491 points, T:1265, killed by a giant rat
16:11 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [sp] mightyquinn (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 17731 points, T:10547, killed by a lizard
16:27 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [4k] groovejumper (Wiz Syl Fem Cha) received advice from The Oracle, on T:2468
17:04 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] asdlka (Bar Orc Fem Cha) had Cleaver bestowed upon her by Set, on T:4801
17:09 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a minor fix
17:09 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
17:10 <K2> k
17:10 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-01-05 14:18 EST: pushed minor fixes
17:10 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-01-05 17:09 EST: pushed a minor fix
17:10 <K2> edited gnumakefile again
17:10 <FIQ> yes
17:10 <K2> whats the charge?
17:11 <K2> err change
17:11 <FIQ> no change in practice for you, but I moved some of my mail checks into a common routine
17:11 <FIQ> shared between engine and windowport
17:11 <K2> ok
17:15 <K2> why dod you not add the CPPFLAGS for things like DPUBLIC_SERVER or DEXTRAINFO now? i get it, not everyone is setting up a server and just want to play local, but you should at least include them and comment them out
17:15 <aosdict> K2: as a military person can you confirm that K-rations exist in real life, ##nethack-variants wants to know
17:15 <K2> I've had T-rations before
17:15 <K2> without hot sauce i would have starved
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17:16 <K2> K-rations were from WWII era
17:16 <K2> so yes those did exist IRL
17:17 <K2> C-rations are also from the same era
17:18 <K2> and if i recall correctly, the current MRE is derived from the C-ration
17:18 <K2> c-ration --> something else (m something) --> MRE
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17:23 <raisse> it's amazing (though perhaps not for the time) that the rations also included cigarettes
17:24 <raisse> 4 at breakfast, 4 at dinner and 4 at supper
17:24 <raisse> that's the K ration
17:26 <StatueSurfer> clearly an important part of any nutritious meal
17:27 <raisse> or something that drives soldiers to mutiny if they don't have it
17:27 <StatueSurfer> but presumably the modern 1987 yendorian army wasn't packing any smokes
17:27 <raisse> no, or eating a ration wouldn't be so quick
17:28 <raisse> and we'd get "killed by a captain, while smoking"
17:28 <StatueSurfer> and you'd probably catch lung cancer
17:28 <StatueSurfer> or contract lung cancer
17:28 <raisse> you'd probably die of something else first
17:28 <raisse> like being zapped with a wand by a gnome
17:29 <StatueSurfer> you know i think i once calculated that assuming that a standard action in nethack takes 6 seconds like D&D
17:29 <jonadab> In the era when K-rations were current, your odds, as a soldier, of surviving the war were not very high.
17:29 <StatueSurfer> that your character starves to death in like an hour and a half
17:29 <jonadab> So smoking likely did not have nearly the impact on your life expectancy that it would as a soldier _today_.
17:30 <jonadab> StatueSurfer: It is not at all clear that six seconds is a reasonable estimate for how long an action takes.
17:30 <jonadab> I mean, you can saddle a dragon in one action.
17:30 <StatueSurfer> most characters do have high dexterity
17:31 <StatueSurfer> well the thing is swinging a massive dwarvish mattock burns the exact same amount of nutrition as standing in one place not doing anything
17:32 <StatueSurfer> not that i think that should change
17:32 <jonadab> Well, too much realism makes gameplay very boring.
17:32 <StatueSurfer> yeah
17:34 <jonadab> Even Dwarf Fortress doesn't provide full realism in things like farming.
17:34 <StatueSurfer> don't the dwarves in DF also not require food for sustenance?
17:34 <StatueSurfer> they only need booze?
17:39 <jonadab> I think it's more that food is easier to provide in adequate quantity.
17:39 <jonadab> Though booze is not _hard_ to arrange either.
17:40 <jonadab> Clothing is a real pain to make enough of, but it doesn't actually matter that much.
17:40 <jonadab> (It's a pain because you need so many different bits, and DF doesn't let you set a workshop to make e.g. 10% each of ten different things in perpetuitiy.)
17:41 <jonadab> (So you have to constantly micro-manage it.)
17:42 <StatueSurfer> yeah i tried to DF a couple times
17:42 <StatueSurfer> but it was just too tough to even figure how to get dwarves to do stuff
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17:43 <jonadab> StatueSurfer: My problem with DF was that there's just no challenge in it, so after a few days you just get tired of it.
17:43 <jonadab> (This was fortress mode, though.)
17:43 <StatueSurfer> no challenge... in a game whose fanbase widely declares losing in almost inevitable
17:44 <jonadab> (It's possible that Adventure Mode, which almost nobody plays, has some actual challenge.)
17:44 <jonadab> StatueSurfer: Yes, but those people have never played a game that is actually hard.
17:44 <StatueSurfer> mhm
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18:01 <K2> jonadab: that
18:02 <K2> #1 reason i love nethack and have since I discovered it so long ago
18:02 <K2> its freaking *hard*
18:03 <hothraxxa> you left nethack for grunthack, you two-timing bastard
18:03 <K2> errrrmahgerd sssshhh!
18:04 <K2> FIQhack updated (us and eu)
18:04 <hothraxxa> this server only exists because you needed a place to keep your new mistress, admit it
18:07 <K2> oh i dont deny it
18:07 <K2> but we've evolved :P
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18:38 <UncleFetus> hello
18:38 <Beholder> Hello UncleFetus, Welcome to #hardfought
18:38 <UncleFetus> Any reason why my FIQ game won't load?
18:39 <FIQ> what happens if you try?
18:39 <FIQ> actually
18:39 <FIQ> my game doesn't load either
18:39 <FIQ> I suspect something went wrong in K2's merge, because it works locally
18:39 <FIQ> K2: can you get a stack trace?
18:39 <UncleFetus> i see menu, use l to load game, select saved game "a", it flashes then is gone
18:39 <FIQ> yeah, same
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18:40 <K2> hmm
18:40 <K2> the GNUmakefile edits were minimal
18:40 <UncleFetus> appreciate the game, the game server, and this chat room :)
18:40 <K2> just the extrainfo and dumplog bits
18:40 <K2> thanks UncleFetus
18:41 <K2> FIQ: maybe i fat-fingered something. checking
18:41 <K2> UncleFetus: us or eu server?
18:41 <UncleFetus> us i assume
18:42 <K2> ok
18:42 <K2> brb
18:42 <UncleFetus> brb
18:42 <UncleFetus> landlord is at the door :@
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18:43 <K2> FIQ: what was the change you made to the GNUmakefile again?
18:44 <FIQ> K2: - GAME_O += $(addprefix libnethack_common/src/,common_options.o hacklib.o menulist.o trietable.o utf8conv.o xmalloc.o)
18:44 <FIQ> + GAME_O += $(addprefix libnethack_common/src/,common_options.o hacklib.o mail.o menulist.o trietable.o utf8conv.o xmalloc.o)
18:44 <FIQ> er
18:44 <FIQ> - GAME_O += $(addprefix libnethack_common/src/,common_options.o hacklib.o menulist.o trietable.o utf8conv.o xmalloc.o)
18:44 <FIQ> + GAME_O += $(addprefix libnethack_common/src/,common_options.o hacklib.o mail.o menulist.o trietable.o utf8conv.o xmalloc.o)
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18:45 <K2> yeah i didnt go anywhere near that
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18:45 <K2> all I edit is the BINDIR
18:45 <ais523> the symptom UncleFetus mentioned is probably a segfault or exit on load
18:46 <FIQ> ais523: yes, but it works locally
18:46 <FIQ> so I assumed a merge error
18:46 <K2> and then three lines (CPPFLAGS for DPUBLIC_SERVER, the dumplog, and DEXTRAINFO)
18:46 <K2> eu server showing same behavior
18:47 <K2> no core dumps exists FIQ
18:47 <FIQ> well
18:48 <FIQ> I can't reproduce
18:48 <FIQ> it runs fine
18:48 <FIQ> can you try run in valgrind or something?
18:48 <K2> yeah talk me through it again please, its been ages
18:49 <UncleFetus> back. still have the issue.
18:49 <K2> yup we havent fixed anything yet
18:49 <UncleFetus> woot :)
18:49 <UncleFetus> pesky landlords
18:51 <K2> heh
18:53 <Tangles> are there any new shared library dependencies?
18:54 <ais523> I don't think so
18:55 <UncleFetus> i love fiq. i think the qol improvements are brilliant.
18:55 <K2> gotta get my kid some food, brb
19:00 <K2> ok back
19:07 <Tangles> can confirm FIQhack issue is a segfault on game load.
19:07 <Tangles> when I run the chroot from the command line I get Segmentation fault (core dumped)
19:07 <Tangles> but it lies... since no core is actually dumped anywhere.
19:07 <FIQ> strangely, the game launches just fine in watchmode
19:10 <UncleFetus> thx for checking it out. laters!
19:11 <K2> cya
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19:18 <jonadab> K2: IMO, NetHack isn't actually that hard _as traditional roguelike games go_.  I mean, yes, it's clearly much harder than things like FreeCiv and Dwarf Fortress Fortress Mode.  Obviously.  But if you compare it to stuff like Angband and Crawl and ADOM and Ivan and Brogue, NetHack doesn't seem so hard, all of a sudden.
19:18 -!- aosdict is now known as aosdict_
19:19 <jonadab> NOt sure how it compares to DF Adventure Mode.  Haven't played that.  Probably should at some point.
19:19 <K2> i've never played any of those games you mentioned
19:19 <K2> i prob should give them a try
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19:24 <jonadab> Some of them are much better than others.  If you're going to start with one, IMO, try Brogue.
19:24 <jonadab> It's shorter, in the sense that it's intended you should be able to play a game of it in a single sitting.
19:24 <jonadab> And it's simpler, in terms of the amount of information you want to memorize.
19:25 <FIQ> Tangles: what happens
19:25 <FIQ> if you do
19:25 <FIQ> valgrind --log-file=/tmp/valgrind.log --track-origins=yes
19:25 <FIQ> on fiqhack
19:25 <jonadab> But it's harder to _win_ than NetHack, IMO.  (ais523 disagrees.  But he's much better at games than I am.)
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19:25 <FIQ> I consider ADOM harder tahn NetHack
19:25 <ais523> jonadab: I'm not sure I disagree
19:25 <ais523> but only because both are fairly easy if you're good at them
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19:26 <ais523> you can expect huge streaks from the like of Tariru, but also from the likes of Creaphis
19:26 <FIQ> Creaphis is a DCSS streaker?
19:26 <ais523> Brogue
19:26 <FIQ> ah
19:27 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh4] tizakit (Sam Hum Mal Law), 62120 points, T:12867, died of starvation, while fainted from lack of food
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19:34 <FIQ> !tell K2 fixed the segfault (thanks Tangles)
19:34 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
19:35 <K2> sweet
19:35 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2018-01-05 19:34 EST: fixed the segfault (thanks Tangles)
19:35 <K2> on it
19:37 <K2> FIQhack updated (us and eu)
19:38 <K2> we're good
19:38 <FIQ> cool
19:39 <FIQ> Tangles: why is my attempt at fixing extrainfo misalignment not working?
19:40 <Tangles> not sure.
19:40 <Tangles> one sec
19:41 <Tangles> Ah I see you are two spaces to the left of the others.  I think those two spaces are "A " if the player has the amulet.
19:42 <Tangles> Are you not padding it?
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19:47 <DrakeMarshall> I'm not sure I understand the layout of hell in dnethack
19:47 <DrakeMarshall> For that matter I don't know what it is in vanilla
19:48 <DrakeMarshall> Where is upper hell?
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19:51 <ais523> DrakeMarshall: in vanilla, Gehennom starts at or below the Valley of the Dead, depending on your point of view; the Valley is below the Castle
19:51 <ais523> and it isn't divided into upper and lower sections, but rather filler with occasional special levels
19:55 <[Demo]> dnethack hell is pretty simple
19:55 <[Demo]> the first like 5 lvls are the winding tower or whatever its called
19:55 <[Demo]> they are all the same size
19:56 <FIQ> endless staircase
19:56 <[Demo]> that
19:56 <FIQ> it's basically like vanilla gehennom filler
19:56 <FIQ> except they're much smaller
19:56 <FIQ> and round
19:56 <[Demo]> then you get fakerelafakewiz spam mixed in with various rolls on abyss bayss2 hell hell2
19:56 <FIQ> circular
19:56 <[Demo]> demon lairs
19:56 <[Demo]> then third deepest is asmo lvl
19:56 <FIQ> I think you always get wiztower
19:56 <FIQ> after endless staircase
19:56 <[Demo]> oh
19:56 <FIQ> then lair/fakewiz
19:57 <FIQ> at random
19:57 <FIQ> never 2 fakewiz in a row
19:57 <FIQ> I think
19:58 <Tangles> I like dnethack's gehennom. It's my favourite gehennom :)
19:58 <FIQ> K2: Tangles: newfound bug that existed in NH4 and thus presumably also all of NH3+friends: dipping a bag into uncursed water will not use up the potion even if it blanks things inside
19:58 <FIQ> Tangles: mine too
19:58 <Tangles> heh
19:58 <FIQ> it is IMO by far the best Gehennom overhaul overall
19:58 <FIQ> er
19:58 <FIQ> *in NH4 and 3.6.0
19:59 <FIQ> 3.6.x, even
19:59 <FIQ> fixes has been pushed to all of NH4 and 3.6.x
19:59 <ais523> Tangles: we fixed it in vanilla, NH4, FIQHack, and Fourk within half an hour of discovery
19:59 <ais523> still a while left for any other variant devs who may be here to fix it!
20:00 <FIQ> ais523: have you tried dnethack btw?
20:00 <Tangles> I probably should fix it in gh, spork, and un.
20:00 <ais523> no, I'm not much of a fan of high-content derivatives
20:00 <FIQ> I think everyone who wants to overhaul Gehennom should give dnethack a go
20:00 <ais523> I've played a bit of Slash'EM but never really got into it
20:00 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [dnh] DrakeMarshall (Bin Clk Mal Non) killed the Chromatic Dragon, on T:214975
20:00 <FIQ> or at least wiztest its Gehennom
20:00 <ais523> vanilla Slash'EM, that is
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20:01 <FIQ> dnethack IMO makes gehennom actually interesting and enjoyable
20:01 <FIQ> rather than the slog that it is in vanilla
20:01 <FIQ> and the "meh" feeling I get in most other variants -- not that bad, but not great
20:03 <FIQ> ais523: basically, the major thing with dnethack's gehennom is that it has basically no filler at all (and the filler it has is much smaller), and a very large set of demon lairs and demon lords
20:03 <FIQ> making each gehennom run genuinely unique, at least for the first 5-10 runs
20:03 <ais523> FIQ: DCSS does something similar, it becomes rather samish there after a while
20:03 <FIQ> it also has quite crazy stats for the demon lords themselves, but that's just dnethack being dnethack (everything is bigger there number-wise)
20:04 <ais523> I think it helps but it's better to fix the structural problems
20:04 <FIQ> ais523: dnethack lairs are hand-crafted though
20:04 <FIQ> not prefabs
20:04 <aosdict> ais523: is the discovery of this bug related to the oilskin sack idea :P
20:04 <FIQ> aosdict: yes
20:04 * aosdict checks ##nethack-variants backscroll
20:04 <FIQ> he mentioned it in ##nethack-discord
20:04 <FIQ> err
20:04 <FIQ> ##nethack-variants
20:05 <ais523> aosdict: see, you were way more helpful than you expected! if it weren't for the fact the bug was in the line of code right next to the one you made me change, it might not have been spotted for ages
20:05 <APic> Good old Factoids.
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20:07 <Tangles> FIQ: your extrainfo alignment problem is just that you have the level and amulet fields reversed.
20:07 <Tangles> FIQ: this is from 3.4.3nao:         fprintf(extrai, "%i|%c %s", sortval, (u.uhave.amulet ? 'A' : ' '), tmpdng);
20:08 <FIQ> Tangles: but I fixed that
20:08 <FIQ> 1188    buf = msgprintf("%d|%c %s", sortval, amulet ? 'A' : ' ', buf);                                                                                                                         
20:09 <Tangles> oh right... I am looking at my local copy of the code.
20:09 <Tangles> which of course is outdated.
20:09 <Tangles> sorry.
20:09 <FIQ> yes
20:09 <FIQ> I am wondering, why doesn't it work?
20:09 <DrakeMarshall> I killed chromatic dragon and it didn't drop scales :(
20:09 <DrakeMarshall> Regardless I seriously don't need the resistances :P
20:09 <FIQ> Tangles: oh, apparently it works now
20:10 <FIQ> sorry
20:10 <Tangles> lol
20:10 <FIQ> guess there was just leftover extrainfo
20:10 <FIQ> from before
20:10 <APic> *shrug*
20:10 <FIQ> I figured dgl removed it
20:10 <APic> Uh oh.
20:12 <jonadab> FIQ: The dnethack lategame is fundamentally different from the vanilla lategame, in large part because of the 8947974 late-game unique monsters that dnethack adds, each of which has unique ways to kill the player unless you are crazy overprepared.
20:12 <jonadab> I'm not even slightly convinced that filling Gehennom with demon lairs would be an overall improvement in vanilla.
20:12 <ais523> jonadab: that's a plausible direction to take FIQHack in, I guess, the AI changes are starting to make monsters more unique
20:13 <jonadab> Hmm, _possibly_.
20:13 <jonadab> I can't see it working in 3.6
20:13 <K2> Tariru just hit #40 about 3 hrs ago
20:13 <StatueSurfer> sheesh
20:14 <FIQ> heh
20:14 <StatueSurfer> i take it he's doing all different roles?
20:14 <FIQ> messing with FIQHack's new replaymode on tizakit's game
20:14 <FIQ> it's much nicer now :3
20:14 <K2> \o/
20:15 <FIQ> it jumps to places basically instantly
20:15 <FIQ> and in general has no perf issues whatsoever
20:15 <StatueSurfer> jonadab: how unique of ways to kill you
20:16 <FIQ> also the message log is sane
20:16 <jonadab> StatueSurfer: I haven't tried to learn them all, since I haven't actually managed to GET to dnethack Gehennom yet.
20:16 <StatueSurfer> oh
20:16 <StatueSurfer> any examples then?
20:16 <jonadab> StatueSurfer: But for example, there are things like Pale Night, which will one-shot you if you melee it.
20:16 <jonadab> NO matter what.
20:16 <StatueSurfer> how fast is it?
20:17 <jonadab> Not sure.
20:17 <StatueSurfer> can it teleport?
20:17 <jonadab> Lamashtu is another one to look up.
20:17 <jonadab> There's a bunch of them, I don't know all their names.
20:18 <StatueSurfer> > teleports pieces of armor off you
20:19 <StatueSurfer> and has a speed of 24 to make sure you can't get away
20:19 <DrakeMarshall> Where is pale night located?
20:19 <jonadab> DrakeMarshall: Not sure, somewhere in the dnethack late game.
20:19 <DrakeMarshall> Also I suspect my automatic binder could outrun a speed of 24
20:20 <StatueSurfer> lamashtu doesn't even look remotely fair
20:20 <StatueSurfer> unless intrinsic MR is a thing dnethack
20:21 <DrakeMarshall> Incantifiers start the game with intrinsic MR
20:21 <FIQ> ais523: hmm I should probably not allow the user to try to send mail if the player has server_messages disabled
20:21 <DrakeMarshall> And a lot of quest artifacts grant slotless MR that is more reliable 'cause only quest nemesis will steal quest artifacts now
20:21 <FIQ> and I think the windowport has access to the game options
20:21 <StatueSurfer> oh okay
20:21 <StatueSurfer> right
20:22 <APic> lol
20:22 <jonadab> StatueSurfer: THe dnethack late game is predicated on the assumption that neither you nor the unique enemies are going to play fair at all.
20:22 <jonadab> It's OP-vs-OP.
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20:22 <StatueSurfer> so you basically need to use all those broken vanilla strategies to have a chance
20:22 * APic actually misread that as „Identifiers“   9😸
20:22 <DrakeMarshall> Also there's the black crystal which gives anyone slotless MR, but you can only get it after completing the hardest part of the chaos quest which some people opt not to do
20:22 <jonadab> StatueSurfer: Plus all the broken dnethack-specific things, which are numerous.
20:22 <jonadab> For example, dnethack gives you a TON of overpowered artifacts.
20:23 <StatueSurfer> so basically to win dnethack
20:23 <StatueSurfer> you have to be a munchkin
20:23 <DrakeMarshall> Yeah dnethack artifacts are all OP pretty much lol
20:23 <FIQ> jonadab: PMD is similarly balanced, but not to the extent dnethack is
20:24 <StatueSurfer> a naked AC of -21 tho
20:24 <StatueSurfer> that's a lot of excess gold
20:24 <jonadab> I think it's normal for a dnethack player to be carrying 8-10 artifacts in the late game.
20:24 <FIQ> yes
20:24 <jonadab> _Each_ of which is more powerful than most of the vanilla artifacts, even the good ones.
20:24 <FIQ> well it's a bit more than I usually carry
20:24 <DrakeMarshall> I don't use most of the artifacts I got though
20:24 <FIQ> but I generally carry around 3
20:24 <FIQ> at least
20:24 <DrakeMarshall> Some of the particularly useless ones I gave to the unknown god
20:25 <DrakeMarshall> But premium heart, tie-dye shirt of shambhala, and black crystal are all staples in my kit
20:25 <FIQ> I like helping hand
20:25 <FIQ> curse resistance is great
20:25 <DrakeMarshall> 'cause my char is a barehanded fighter
20:25 <FIQ> premium heart and tie-dye are also generally staples on my chars
20:25 <FIQ> even if I don't fight bare-handed, premium heart is easily the best gloves in the game
20:26 <FIQ> unless you want double-damage spells I guess
20:26 <DrakeMarshall> yeah
20:26 <jonadab> YASI: artifact kicking boots that cause anything you kick to explode in a cloud of bloody mist.  Even if it's made out of iron.
20:26 <FIQ> dnethack has hammerfeet
20:26 <DrakeMarshall> dnethack has an amped up artifact kicking boots :P
20:26 <FIQ> it makes things you kick be thrown across the level
20:27 <DrakeMarshall> they don't instakill, but they knock you back like 10 tiles
20:27 <jonadab> Ah.
20:27 <jonadab> Interesting.
20:27 <FIQ> it also has various artifacts that upon killing makes the enemy be thrown back and explode
20:27 <APic> *shrug*
20:27 <DrakeMarshall> true
20:27 <FIQ> in general
20:27 <FIQ> dnethack has a lot of artifacts that make thigns explode
20:28 <FIQ> *things
20:28 <DrakeMarshall> I kind of wish I had helping hand tbh 'cause curse resistance would be nice
20:28 <DrakeMarshall> I *would* opt for the amulet, except I currently have 4 amulets of lifesaving, so...
20:30 <jonadab> FIQ: does it have a bow of detonation?
20:30 <jonadab> Or a sling of detonation?
20:30 <FIQ> almost certainly
20:30 <FIQ> just not with that name
20:30 <jonadab> Right, Slash'EM has one.
20:30 <jonadab> I forget what it's called.  Hellfire?  Or is that one of fire?
20:31 <FIQ> slash'em has that
20:31 <DrakeMarshall> I think hellfire is in dnethack too
20:31 <FIQ> one of its oldest artifactrs
20:31 <FIQ> *artifacts
20:31 <FIQ> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DNetHack_Artifacts#Hellfire
20:31 <jonadab> Ah, right, Hellfire, yes, crossbow of detonation, effectively.
20:31 <jonadab> Also Plague, a dark elven bow of poison, basically.
20:31 <FIQ> there is also
20:32 <FIQ> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DNetHack_Artifacts#The_Bow_of_Skadi
20:32 <jonadab> +1d24 cold damage, that is not OP at all.
20:32 <jonadab> _Plus_ 5d6 cold explosion on impact.
20:32 <jonadab> Definitely not OP.
20:33 <FIQ> it isn't
20:33 <FIQ> jonadab: here is the arti I was talking about earlier: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DNetHack_Artifacts#Tobiume
20:33 <jonadab> inb4 bow of disintegration that causes all arrows fired from it to disintegrate along with whatever they hit.
20:34 <FIQ> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DNetHack_Artifacts#Sword_of_Erathaol dnethack's grayswandir
20:34 <jonadab> Ah.
20:35 <jonadab> Too bad it's not a silvered katana.
20:35 <FIQ> this is what I used in my dnethack speedrun https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DNetHack_Artifacts#Tensa_Zangetsu
20:35 <FIQ> back when it had no drawbacks
20:35 <FIQ> it was a bit much, even for dnethack
20:35 <jonadab> Double-damage tsurugi, that is strong.
20:36 <FIQ> FIQHack has that too, for the samurai quest arti
20:36 <FIQ> it is the other things it does
20:36 <jonadab> Wait, "Allows moving 12x as fast for multi-tile movements."
20:36 <FIQ> which puts it over the line
20:36 <jonadab> Does that mean you can move up to 12 tiles with capital-letter movement in _one turn_?
20:36 <FIQ> yes
20:36 <jonadab> Yow.
20:36 <FIQ> more
20:37 <FIQ> I think it costs +1 movement point
20:37 <FIQ> per tile moved
20:37 <ais523> that's… creative, at least
20:37 <jonadab> This would let you one-shot a LOT of things.
20:37 <FIQ> no
20:37 <FIQ> it only boosts movement speed
20:37 <ais523> presumably it only applies to farmove (and travel?)
20:38 <FIQ> ais523: right
20:38 <jonadab> FIQ: Yes, but what I mean is, you can approach from out of range and get the first hit guaranteed.
20:38 <jonadab> And it's a double-damage _tsurugi_.
20:38 <FIQ> dnethack has 2 other artifacts that are similar
20:38 <FIQ> but only has the movement thing that is notable about it
20:38 <FIQ> *them
20:38 <jonadab> So that's like (1d8+2d6)x2
20:38 <FIQ> (one which makes the energy cost for movement 3, one that makes it 4
20:38 <FIQ> )
20:39 <ais523> jonadab: if I were to implement something like that, I'd make the last square of movement cost 12 and all the others cost 1
20:39 <FIQ> jonadab: yes, it was too much
20:39 <FIQ> even for dnethack
20:39 <FIQ> hence the drawbacks
20:39 <FIQ> https://ascension.run/userdata/FIQ/dnethack/dumplog/1425131337
20:39 <FIQ> I think to this day this is the fastest dnethack ascension
20:39 <FIQ> but I am not really much of a speedrunner
20:40 <FIQ> I just played through the game normally, but abusing TZ into oblivion
20:40 <jonadab> And when I say (1d8+2d6)x2, I mean at _plus zero_ it's that.
20:40 <StatueSurfer> i assume dnethack fixes the level curve?
20:40 <jonadab> At unskilled.
20:40 <FIQ> StatueSurfer: That is arguable. I think it makes getting to XL30 a bit too easy
20:40 <jonadab> StatueSurfer: If you mean the XP-to-XL mapping, it adjusts it somewhat.
20:40 <StatueSurfer> i mean making it easier to reach max level
20:41 <FIQ> FIQHack has a similar XP curve as dnethack
20:41 <FIQ> but makes it a bit harder
20:41 <ais523> hmm, where does the Bat from Hell fall on the scale of dnethack artifacts?
20:41 <ais523> something like halfway?
20:41 <FIQ> ais523: probably on the upper end
20:41 <FIQ> +20 damage is still insane
20:41 <ais523> it's "just" damage, after all
20:41 <FIQ> ais523: a barbarian in dnethack gets additional attacks
20:41 <jonadab> FIQ: The thing is, that's a flat +20, so enchantment doesn't add that much to it.
20:41 <FIQ> at XL10, 20, 30
20:41 <StatueSurfer> yeah it doesn't give any extrinsics
20:42 <FIQ> bat from hell would be ridiculous coupled wit htaht
20:42 <FIQ> *with that
20:42 <jonadab> Ah, yes, adding speed and extra attacks to the Bat would be potent.
20:42 <jonadab> Wait, what happens if you polyself into an Elvenking and hit things with the Bat from Hell?
20:42 <jonadab> Or a Maralith?
20:42 <FIQ> you get multiple attacks, as usual
20:42 <jonadab> That sounds OP.
20:42 <FIQ> but you have to deal with the drawbacks of being polymorphed
20:43 <jonadab> Well, yes.
20:43 <StatueSurfer> OP? in dnethack?
20:43 <FIQ> jonadab: in general polyself allows you to do crazy things
20:43 <jonadab> YOu'd be one heck of a glass cannon.
20:43 <FIQ> but it has drawbacks that you can't avoid
20:43 <jonadab> StatueSurfer: Bat from Hell is Slash'EM.
20:43 <FIQ> no matter what form you choose
20:43 <StatueSurfer> i don't think there's anything in dnethack that's actually OP
20:43 <StatueSurfer> oh
20:43 <StatueSurfer> i thought it might be in both
20:43 <FIQ> no
20:43 <FIQ> bat from hell isn't in dnh
20:43 <StatueSurfer> i don't think anything's OP in slashem either
20:43 <StatueSurfer> :p
20:43 <FIQ> doppelganger
20:44 <ais523> giant shoggoth polyform is pretty OP
20:44 <jonadab> Slash'EM just doesn't care about balance.  "Balance?  Eh, that sounds boring, let's add light sabres!"
20:44 <ais523> (this makes the doppelganger OP by reference)
20:44 <FIQ> ais523: I think you can like oneshot one-eyed sam with it?
20:44 <ais523> jonadab: actually, Slash'EM appears to care a lot about balance, but only of existing content
20:44 <ais523> as in, it'll balance existing things and then add new broken things on top
20:44 <jonadab> Ah.
20:44 <ais523> (vanilla Slash'EM, that is)
20:44 <jonadab> New stuff gets a free pass?
20:44 <jonadab> I'll buy that.
20:45 <FIQ> ais523: I played a doppelganger once in slex
20:45 <FIQ> before amy hit it with a nerf bat
20:45 <jonadab> NO amount of being OP will really help you that much in slex.
20:45 <FIQ> was a bit fun messing around with OP polyforms
20:46 <FIQ> jonadab: at first
20:46 <FIQ> when slex on public server was new
20:46 <FIQ> it wasn't too crazy yet
20:46 <jonadab> Oh, before nasty traps were added and such?
20:46 <FIQ> sure, it still had like a million pointless monsters
20:46 <FIQ> and it still had nastytraps
20:46 <FIQ> but it was far less bad
20:46 <FIQ> IMO
20:46 <jonadab> Sure.
20:46 <FIQ> it was actually *playable*
20:46 <DrakeMarshall> You know what would be an ungodly combination
20:46 <FIQ> and I could have some fun messing around with it
20:46 <jonadab> I mean, if almost everything slex changes is for the worse, clearly it used to be better than it is.
20:46 <FIQ> not anymore, though
20:47 <DrakeMarshall> Bind Miska and wield quicksilver
20:47 <StatueSurfer> the giant shoggoth averages 99 damage per attack
20:47 <StatueSurfer> assuming all attacks hit
20:47 <DrakeMarshall> As an automaton on high clockspeed lolz
20:47 <jonadab> I don't know enough dnethack to know the implications of all that, except the clockspeed.
20:48 <FIQ> clockspeed is x2 speed
20:48 <DrakeMarshall> That would give you like, 16 attacks in a single turn
20:48 <DrakeMarshall> Lol
20:48 <FIQ> miska is a binder spirit that gives up to 3 extra attacks
20:48 <DrakeMarshall> And all of them would deal silver damage
20:48 <jonadab> I see.
20:48 <FIQ> quicksilver is an artifact that allows you to get additional attacks but I Forgot the details
20:48 <DrakeMarshall> RIP demons
20:48 <DrakeMarshall> It gives extra attacks based on level
20:48 <jonadab> Ah.
20:48 <DrakeMarshall> You get a total of 4 attacks at lvl30
20:48 <DrakeMarshall> and it deals silver damage
20:49 <FIQ> I think a barbarian can pull this off better than binders
20:49 <DrakeMarshall> binders can bind Miska though and get more extra attacks :P
20:49 <FIQ> but Miska only gives one additional weapon attack
20:49 <jonadab> Is there a way for a Barbarian to bind just one Spirit, using an artifact or something?
20:49 <FIQ> and 2 claw attacks
20:49 <FIQ> barbarians get 4 weapon attacks
20:49 <FIQ> jonadab: Book of the Lost Names
20:49 <DrakeMarshall> barbarians get 4 weapon attacks...?
20:49 <DrakeMarshall> since when?
20:50 <FIQ> but Miska is one of the "special" spirits
20:50 <DrakeMarshall> and yeah book of lost names but Miska's an alignment spirit
20:50 <jonadab> Ah.
20:50 <FIQ> that are exclusive to Binders
20:50 <jonadab> I see.
20:50 <FIQ> DrakeMarshall: since always?
20:50 <DrakeMarshall> huh
20:50 <FIQ> 1 additional weapon attack at XL10
20:50 <DrakeMarshall> didn't know that was a thing
20:50 <FIQ> 2 at XL20
20:50 <FIQ> 3 at XL30
20:50 <FIQ> with -10, -20 and -30 to-hit
20:50 <jonadab> So you gotta max your luck to hit anything, right.
20:51 <jonadab> (With the last one.)
20:51 <DrakeMarshall> Guess that makes sense... Barbarians in dnethack are basically the easiest role
20:51 <FIQ> DrakeMarshall: if I want people to experience dnethack without having to deal with its weird difficulty
20:51 <FIQ> I generally suggest halfdragon monk
20:51 <FIQ> as a newbie combination
20:52 <DrakeMarshall> halfdragon monk is a good combo because halfdragons get a nontrivial damage bonus to unarmed
20:52 <DrakeMarshall> noticed that in the code
20:52 <FIQ> yep
20:52 <FIQ> also they get intrinsic food appraisal
20:52 <FIQ> so you will know what to eat or not
20:52 <FIQ> similar to NH4
20:52 <DrakeMarshall> plus, premium heart is a must-have for halfdragons regardless of if they leverage the unarmed bonus
20:52 <FIQ> yeah
20:53 <FIQ> their main drawback, once you get rid of their 12 dexterity cap with premium heart
20:53 <FIQ> is their speed
20:53 <FIQ> monk patches that somewhat
20:53 <FIQ> but you want extrinsic speed sooner rather than later
20:53 <DrakeMarshall> ^truth
20:53 <DrakeMarshall> my clockwork binder was able to go without speed for a really long time because I could go on high clockspeed when I really needed it
20:54 <DrakeMarshall> but extrinsic speed is very useful
20:54 <DrakeMarshall> particularly to things that have low speed to start with
20:54 <FIQ> fun fact: due to a bug, you used to be able to get basically infinite clock speed
20:54 <FIQ> in exchange for a "oLS
20:54 <FIQ> basically
20:54 <DrakeMarshall> Huh
20:54 <FIQ> tell a foocubi to give you like
20:54 <FIQ> 5000000 clock winding
20:55 <FIQ> or similar
20:55 <DrakeMarshall> Ohhhh
20:55 <FIQ> you will instantly die
20:55 <DrakeMarshall> Yeah I actually died like that once
20:55 <FIQ> due to being (rather majorly) overwound
20:55 <FIQ> but "oLS will save you
20:55 <FIQ> and not reset the winding
20:55 <FIQ> so you keep it
20:55 <DrakeMarshall> I went up to the windowless tower pretty early in the game
20:56 <DrakeMarshall> But I didn't have engagement ring and the base CHA of a binder is terrible
20:56 <FIQ> did one of the vampires seduce you
20:56 <DrakeMarshall> Yep, vlad
20:56 <FIQ> ah
20:56 <DrakeMarshall> And the whole overwound thing happened
20:56 <FIQ> heh
20:56 <DrakeMarshall> And I had "oLS
20:57 <FIQ> dnh sex winding in general used to be rather buggy
20:57 <FIQ> I died like 3 times from bugs with it
20:57 <DrakeMarshall> That got the hod sephirah coming after me lol
20:57 <FIQ> I think I got an epitaph in dnh about it
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21:07 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Neu) killed Orcus, on T:62931
21:07 <StatueSurfer> i just reached a DL in vanilla with three swamps
21:12 <aosdict> for some reason, swamp levels tend to generate swamps in several rooms
21:12 <ais523> it's intentional, not a coincidence, but I don't know why it was done that way
21:13 <FIQ> swamps in general is weird
21:13 <FIQ> it works differently from every other special rom
21:13 <FIQ> *room
21:17 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh4] FIQ (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 1228 points, T:9, killed by a falling object
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21:29 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Neu) genocided disenchanter, on T:65426
21:30 <bouquet> wow, a genocide and wish from Vlad's throne.
21:30 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "magic marker", on T:65434
21:31 <bouquet> and an identify
21:31 <bouquet> that's gotta be a record.
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21:37 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:65668
21:37 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:65671
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21:50 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] bouquet (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed rustproof +2 helm of telepathy", on T:65888
22:02 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh4] tizakit (Val Dwa Fem Law), 25587 points, T:1387, quit
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22:35 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nh4] tizakit (Val Dwa Fem Law), 28730 points, T:2508, killed by a watchman
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23:28 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] asdlka (Bar Orc Fem Cha) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:8108
23:30 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [nd] asdlka (Bar Orc Fem Cha) polymorphed her first item, on T:8309
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23:52 <Beholder> [hdf-us] [un] k2 (Cav Hum Mal Law) killed Durin's Bane, on T:25595