00:00 which may or may not be useful. 00:38 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 00:50 [hdf-us] [dnh] DrakeMarshall (Bin Clk Fem Non) wished for "blessed erodeproof +2 Tie-Dye Shirt of Shambhala", on T:19431 01:02 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07 -!- StatueSurfer has joined #hardfought 01:18 -!- StatueSurfer_ has joined #hardfought 01:19 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:22 -!- NCommander is now known as KD2JRT 01:25 dang it 01:26 i messed up my attempt to make demon princes/lords immune to scare monster 01:26 -!- StatueSurfer_ is now known as StatueSurfer 01:27 i tried to make them an exception in the following line 01:27 if (sobj_at(SCR_SCARE_MONSTER, x, y) && !(mtmp->data == &mons[PM_JUIBLEX, PM_YEENOGHU, PM_ORCUS, PM_GERYON, PM_DISPATER, PM_BAALZEBUB, PM_ASMODEUS, PM_DEMOGORGON]) 01:27 [hdf-us] [dnh] DrakeMarshall (Bin Clk Fem Non) was given the Shield of the All-Seeing, on T:21874 01:34 &mons[PM_JUIBLEX, PM_YEENOGHU, etc. doesn't work. 01:35 You have to do mtmp->data != &mons[PM_id] && mtmp->data != &mons[PM_etc] for every PM_id you want to include. 01:36 You could instead make use of is_demon and is_prince and/or is_lord to set a general rule. 01:45 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Bar Hum Mal Neu) killed Asmodeus, on T:53770 01:47 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:47 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 01:50 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:31 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 02:31 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 02:31 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:32 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse 02:37 WTF game 02:37 a master mindflayer on Dl:11 ... 02:37 -!- KD2JRT is now known as NCommander 02:38 in the mines? 02:38 raisse, yeah 02:38 that's the random h on that mines level 02:38 they do turn out mf or mmf occasionally 02:39 Ugh 02:39 -!- StatueSurfer has joined #hardfought 02:39 It's between me and the downstair 02:39 I think I'm going to abandon my attempt to get the luckstone for now 02:39 . 02:39 That's just mean :( 02:39 why do you have to abandon it 02:39 StatueSurfer, master mind flayer spawned in the minds between me and the downstairs 02:39 And I'm still in early game 02:39 happens 02:40 Yeah but still 02:40 :( 02:40 for some reason it can be the randomly generated h 02:40 i think i'll take that out of my variant actually... 02:40 ... huh 02:40 it just vanished 02:40 trap door? 02:40 or levelport trap 02:41 Poly trap 02:41 cause my baby purple worm just became a hezrou 02:41 r i p 02:41 wait how do you have a baby purple worm already 02:42 Wait 02:42 no 02:42 It's a doppleganger I tamed 02:42 Frig 02:42 That was a heartattack 02:44 WTF game 02:44 okay so in my variant demon lords and princes now ignore scare monster scrolls 02:44 * NCommander charmed a cocktrice ... which ate my dead chaelom and became ... a green dragon 02:44 um 02:44 O_o; 02:44 and such scrolls are also ineffective in the endgame 02:44 Well 02:44 look don't fight it NCommander 02:45 just roll with it 02:45 StatueSurfer, yeah, I'm just appreciating the absurdly of it 02:45 Status of the green dragon (neutral): Level 14 HP 58(58) Pw 10(10) AC -1, 02:45 Decent level too 02:46 the normal base level of a green dragon is 15 02:46 StatueSurfer, I'm less than 10k turns in, I haven't even done Sokoban :P 02:46 He'll grow up 02:46 it's an adolescent green dragon? 02:47 Game says he's just a green dragon 02:47 I think you can polymorph into an adult form even if it's underlevel 02:47 lol raisse 02:47 in my variant i also buffed juiblex by flagging him as unsolid 02:47 Considering I'm a priest, and I was planning on having a strong pet cause my DPS sucks 02:47 damn 02:47 hopefully that doesn't make him OP 02:48 [hdf-us] [dnh] DrakeMarshall (Bin Clk Fem Non) killed Cerberus, on T:28259 02:48 honestly, if I can find a saddle and bullwhip 02:48 I'm going to dragonride until YASD :) 02:48 yeah tthen you can ride a slow monster around 02:51 StatueSurfer, :P, well the dragon just breathed my warhorse out of existence 02:51 good job 02:54 any objections to juiblex's new unsolidness in my variant? 02:57 [hdf-us] [dnh] DrakeMarshall (Bin Clk Fem Non) averted death, on T:29000 02:58 [hdf-us] [dnh] DrakeMarshall (Bin Clk Fem Non) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:29003 03:01 [hdf-us] [fh] NCommander (Pri Elf Mal Cha), 45903 points, T:8928, killed by an ochre jelly 03:01 ARGH 03:01 #!@#$ 03:04 what happened 03:06 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:06 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 03:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 03:11 StatueSurfer, stupidity. I got engulfed, and took more points of damage than I realized, that was completly avoidable 03:11 Ugh 03:11 ouch 03:13 [hdf-us] [dnh] Elysium (Bin Elf Mal Non), 24 points, T:198, killed by a jackal 04:12 [hdf-us] [slex] DrakeMarshall (Cha Bre Mal Cha), 0 points, T:15, killed by a monster (rainbow ogre) 04:18 apparently this game wants me to open doors 04:18 I have a key, a lock pick, a credit card and a wand of opening 04:18 on dlvl 3 04:19 Thou shalt be the Opener of Doors! 04:21 now all I need is a knock spell 04:21 well, and the Bell of Opening :-) 04:26 -!- Grassy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 04:26 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 04:38 StatueSurfer: dragons in FIQHack are much faster than in vanilla 04:38 oh he was playing fiqhack 04:38 and make far more useful mounts (arguably the best mounts in the game) 04:38 i assumed it was vanilla 04:38 StatueSurfer: not a weird assumption, I only knew because I saw the death message 04:38 no black dragons are the best mounts in the game 04:39 "[fh]" 04:39 StatueSurfer: I meant dragons in general, but especially black ones yeah 04:39 or yellow 04:39 i think ki-rin might surpass the others because they can heal and will eventually haste themselves past even the speed of a dragon 04:39 and can just cast spells in general 04:40 and resist conflict 04:40 in fh, only if they generate with those spells 04:40 disintegrating things is tough to top, though 04:40 oh right 04:40 a ki-rin is speed 18 04:40 dragons in fh is speed 20 04:41 conflict resistance and self-healing are (potentially) definitely helpful 04:43 a ki-rin also has no resistances 04:43 dragons at least get trinsics by eating corpses 04:43 okay obviously fiqhack changes to much for me to make an intelligent statement 04:43 *too much 04:44 sorry :P 04:44 was just messing with you 04:44 but yeah 04:44 fh doesn't have that many changes 04:44 but they are enough to sometimes make things completely different 04:45 -!- hpardis has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:45 in my variant i'm working to rebalance the alignment system 04:46 so that it actually matters 04:46 I see 04:47 currently i've made the penalties pretty stiff until i figure out how to edit the penalty for hitting a peaceful 04:47 other things are: can't #offer the Amulet on Astral with negative alignment, and no alignment gain from coaligned monsters 04:47 i'm not entirely sure either of those is balanced 04:48 setmangr 04:48 y 04:48 okay thank you 04:49 now i can maybe lift that penalty for killing peacefuls above -20 04:51 now how about the thing with the Amulet and the no alignment from coaligned stuff 04:53 [hdf-us] [dnh] Elysium (Bar Orc Fem Cha) was given Cleaver, on T:3946 04:59 -!- StatueSurfer has left #hardfought 05:38 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02 -!- realinari has joined #hardfought 06:08 [hdf-us] [gh] arnibald (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 552 points, T:1307, killed by a rock piercer 06:10 huhuh 06:10 stepping on landmines, are we? 06:11 I have never seen one outside of the Fort 06:11 and in the Fort, you kinda know to expect them 06:36 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 06:48 -!- deadnoob has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48 -!- deadnoob has joined #hardfought 07:00 !tell K2 pushed a bunch of fixes and made -W ready to go (still needs the dgl logic though) 07:00 Will do, FIQ! 07:06 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 07:07 ais523: would you find mail useful for NH4-mode servers? 07:07 FIQ: yes, assuming it doesn't break things 07:07 I could do some minor tweaks to it to have it work in '-k' NH4-servermode 07:08 (which I assume is how N4O works) 07:08 yes, it uses -k 07:08 ideally I'd bring back the mail daemon, but daniel_t deleted it entirely from the source so that's a little nontrivial nowadays 07:08 although it'd get annoying in a long conversation 07:09 hm you think the player should also be able to mail himself, for the purpose of having a conversion? 07:09 it's currently disallowed 07:09 !rng priest|ranger 07:09 NCommander: priest 07:10 because you seemed to imply it 07:14 FIQ: conversion? do you mean conversation? 07:14 err yes 07:14 the only real reason to disallow that is to avoid using too many keybindings 07:15 currently, moveonly in watchmode aliases to mail 07:15 if it's rebindable you could just make it nonbound by default, or put it on the !/^C menu, or something 07:15 but there is also a dedicated, allbeit unmapped, 'mail' command 07:15 but it is an UI command 07:15 that seems reasonable 07:15 so it is completely inaccessible outside watching 07:16 because extended UI commands doesn't work for whatever reason 07:17 ais523: also, there is something I don't understand 07:17 somehow, the watcher is also seeing the mail 07:17 despite mail being disallowed in watchmode 07:17 is player plines somehow sent to the watcher too? 07:18 FIQ: they shouldn't be 07:18 hm 07:18 then what is this dark magic 07:18 so what is happening is 07:19 the watcher sees the user moving as normal 07:19 but doesn't see a message 07:19 the player sees a mail 07:19 with force-More 07:19 once the --More-- is dismissed 07:19 the watcher also sees the mail 07:19 I don't understand 07:20 actually it's weirder than that 07:20 this is very weird 07:20 there is some delay 07:20 it isn't related to the --More-- 07:20 but if the player hasn't dismissed the --More-- 07:20 before the watcher sees the message 07:21 the act of dismissing the --More-- will desync the watcher 07:21 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: sorry for my connection] 07:21 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 07:21 ‎<‎FIQ‎>‎ but if the player hasn't dismissed the --More-- ← the last message that got through 07:21 http://home.fiq.se/desync.png 07:21 but if the player hasn't dismissed the --More-- 07:21 before the watcher sees the message 07:21 the act of dismissing the --More-- will desync the watcher 07:22 (then I posted the image link) 07:22 found diff, expected command 07:23 that's particularly weird because it /hasn't/ reached an EOF at that point (it can't have done, or else the desync message would be different) 07:23 so how can the original player's actions, which should only append to the save file, affect it? 07:23 that would imply that the watcher is writing to the original player's save but they aren't supposed to do that under any circumstances 07:23 the watcher has opened the save as read-only 07:24 perhaps you could have a look at how this works in multiprocess and compare? 07:24 so it shouldn't even be able to even if it tried 07:24 FIQ: right 07:24 something's clearly gone very wrong internally but it's not clear what or how 07:24 multiprocess? 07:24 oh you mean opening with FM_PLAY on both ends? 07:24 as in 07:24 2 processes playing 07:25 yes, two processes with FM_PLAY 07:26 don't worry about messages randomly turning grey, that's been a problem in multiprocess forever and it's very hard to fix 07:26 hmm 07:26 well the only thing that happened was that the --More-- broke down 07:26 and both processes got all the mails all at once 07:26 (I sent 10) 07:27 actually that isn't true 07:27 well it is 07:27 but the message lines is different 07:28 the player that was walking, prompting the mail 07:28 presumably they got approximately half the mail each? 07:28 did they see each other's mail? 07:28 no they both got all mails 07:28 but the message line is a bit odd 07:28 unsure if it is due to my T:xx prevmsg being broken 07:29 or something else 07:29 never seen this before though 07:29 it looks like this: 07:29 Buried deep in the core of your consciousness is a nagging 07:29 fixationonahazymemory of something fiqwatch may once have said: "test8" 07:29 multiprocess play is problematic because the processes are meant to stay live with each other, so the players can dismiss each others' mores 07:29 but that missing spaces is bizarre 07:29 presumably you're going to change the message before release anyway :-) 07:29 ("fiqwatch" is what I set NH4WATCHER to) 07:30 ais523: this is 4k mail.c 07:30 I didn't change it 07:30 I have considered removing the message fluff though 07:30 this reminds me of that time that an old version of the message rendering code somehow managed to draw a --More-- /vertically/ 07:30 so it went down the side of the message area 07:30 (both FIQHack and 4k has has mail support since before -- the new thing here is the NH4 watchmode part, and mail sending) 07:37 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: reconnecting] 07:38 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 07:53 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 07:53 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 09:11 -!- Grasshopper_ has joined #hardfought 09:11 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: my connection is too bad for the Internet to be usable right now] 09:59 -!- Grassy is now known as Grasshopper 10:17 FIQ, possible bug? Stormbringer is surprisingly tame. It's not attacking peacefuls. It's not on the changelog on the wiki 10:34 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Bar Hum Mal Neu) performed his first genocide (class m), on T:54285 10:34 [hdf-us] [4k] Smyth (Ssach) (Hea Gno Fem Neu), 3141 points, T:1591, killed by a jitterbug 10:35 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 10:41 [hdf-us] [4k] Joes (Ssach) (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 4020 points, T:1138, killed by a force bolt 10:44 FIQ, I just found a long srowd named Frost Brand on dlvl1. is it legit? 10:45 yes 10:45 oh sorry, it's fiqhack, I don't know about that 10:45 in vanilla it woudl be anyway 10:45 well it's certainly not cursed.. 10:46 and if it freezes things you hit with it, you know it's the real thing 10:47 okay, it feels satisfying. watch me ef this run up.. 10:48 should I #twoweapon right away with the strating sword? 10:48 *starting 10:48 zxkuqyb: yes it is legit 10:48 no, first train it up as high as it will go (probably at least skilled if it's your starting sword) 10:49 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/FIQHack 10:49 this article mentions everything different from nethack4 10:49 and nethack4 can be assumed to play like vanilla 10:49 3.4.3 10:49 thanks for rigging it up for me, FIQ 10:50 [hdf-us] [4k] Christ (Ssach) (Rog Elf Mal Cha), 2682 points, T:1309, killed by a jackal, while fainted from lack of food 11:00 FIQ 11:00 K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-12-18 07:00 EST: pushed a bunch of fixes and made -W ready to go (still needs the dgl logic though) 11:00 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 11:00 ok 11:01 yay for getting a priest to the quest 11:02 \o/ 11:03 K2: I made this thing: http://home.fiq.se/watchmode.png 11:03 need Tangles to implement the dgamelaunch end though :P 11:06 that is awesome 11:06 i was reading the backlog in the dev channel 11:06 looking like dgl will need some modification to get this all to play nice? 11:06 as in code modification? or just the right commands to pass on to dgl? 11:07 K2: well currently, dgl watchmode will just playback the ttyrec 11:07 right 11:07 basically, what needs to be done is to invoke fiqhack, as if you wanted to play fiqhack like normal 11:07 except with some additional parameters 11:08 -W /path/to/player to choose to watch the given player 11:08 and NH4WATCHER needs to be set so the game knows who is watching -- this is for mail (lack of NH4WATCHER will still work, but 'm' will give an error about needing to be logged in) 11:10 ok 11:18 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) was given their Quest, on T:19784 11:26 FIQ, I'm surprised you can be an emacs user and a nethack player 11:26 because the config editor is in vi 11:27 and repeat commands like 5h are vi-style 11:30 most people seem to favor nano as the config editor 11:40 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 11:45 https://i.imgur.com/uuKOOXi.png dang.. 11:45 bug_sniper: but I learned emacs before I learned vikeys 11:45 on nethack 11:46 and it's not like there is any alternative 11:46 while playing nethack 11:46 bug_sniper: I am thankful for learning vikeys in nethack though 11:46 much nicer than numberpad 11:46 smoother multi-commands 11:47 and shift+direction is nice 11:51 floating eyes a way more dangerous in FIQHack, huh.. 11:51 are* 11:52 FIQ: I am torn on whether to remove enchanted weapons' to-hit bonus or not. The main reason being it double-dips in to-hit and damage. What do you think? 11:56 I am not comfortable answering since it boils down to how you want to-hit balance to be 12:00 yeah, it is 12:00 bug_sniper: as for the config editor 12:01 I despise virus 12:01 and only use it if absolutely neccessary 12:11 [hdf-us] [slex] Ssach (Bul Clk Mal Neu), 63 points, T:204, killed by a monster (kobold mummy) 12:12 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Raisse suddenly disappears!] 12:13 how many slex ascensions are there? 12:17 [hdf-us] [sp] Ssach (Arc Hum Mal Neu), 135 points, T:333, killed by a jackal 12:17 from people other than amy: zero 12:17 from amy: around five I think 12:21 FIQ: I'm perhaps crazily still sticking to the to-hit formula being based on a gaussian distribution 12:25 hmmm 12:27 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 12:27 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 12:55 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed Ashikaga Takauji, on T:20229 12:56 [Demo] congrats on your dnethack asc on ascrun 12:56 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:59 <[Demo]> thanks! 12:59 <[Demo]> @d?chaos 12:59 Chaos (&) | Lvl: 16 | Diff: 20 | Spd: 9 | Res: fire cold sleep disintegrate shock poison acid petrification | Confers: nothing | MR: 99 | Generates: unique | AC: -3 | Attacks: 4d4 weapon physical, 4d4 weapon physical, 4d4 claw steals-quest-artifact, 4d4 claw steals-quest-artifact | Alignment: -15 | Flags: seeinvis, poisonous, nopoly, covetous, infravisible 13:13 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Bar Hum Mal Neu) killed the invisible Juiblex, on T:55339 13:21 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:21 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:25 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) was given the Kiku-ichimonji, on T:21768 13:25 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35 -!- bouquet has joined #hardfought 13:38 -!- bouquet has quit [Client Quit] 13:45 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) became the Nasu no Demo2!, on T:22511 13:46 <[Demo]> the 2 is funny 13:46 <[Demo]> demo2-san 13:59 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed Medusa, on T:22974 13:59 <[Demo]> what 14:00 <[Demo]> i dont even know how she died 14:00 <[Demo]> must have been an energy vortex? 14:02 -!- tacco\unfoog has joined #hardfought 14:15 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 14:21 !whereis demo 14:21 rikersan: Message from aosdict at 2017-12-16 11:18 EST: Actually, I could probably pursue a dual approach with YANIs, and just streamline whatever source files I create for them into the wiki table as well. 14:21 rikersan: [hdf-us] demo is not currently playing on this server. 14:21 !whois 14:21 !who 14:21 rikersan: [hdf-us] Zxkuqyb [fh] Grasshopper [nd] Demo2 [dnh] 14:21 rikersan: [hdf-eu] No current players 14:24 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed the Platinum Dragon, on T:23611 14:27 !role dnh 14:27 rikersan: priest 14:27 !role dnh 14:27 rikersan: tourist 14:27 !rold dnh 14:27 !role dnh 14:27 rikersan: troubadour 14:28 !rng priest | tou | bard 14:28 rikersan: bard 14:28 [hdf-us] [4k] Jeff (Ssach) (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 3339 points, T:1623, killed by an imp 14:29 [hdf-us] [dnh] rikersan (Pri Inc Mal Neu), 0 points, T:8, killed by a water moccasin 14:29 I should stop fountain dipping 14:35 [hdf-us] [dnh] rikersan (Pri Inc Mal Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:956 14:35 [hdf-us] [dnh] rikersan (Pri Inc Mal Neu), 1052 points, T:988, killed by Mr. Izchak, the shopkeeper 14:35 :( didn't mean to hit the door with force bolt 14:42 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) destroyed the Arsenal, on T:24054 14:44 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed Axus, on T:24156 14:54 -!- realinari has quit [Quit: realinari] 14:58 [hdf-us] [4k] Joes (Ssach) (Kni Hum Mal Law), 10131 points, T:3445, killed by a gold golem 15:01 https://i.imgur.com/y0mEuhB.png and that's why NetHack doesn't have a slot for pants... 15:02 zxkuqyb: did you know you can sit on a cockatrice corpse and not get stoned? 15:03 brb, getting a cockatrice mount 15:04 seriously tho, can you tame and ride a cockatrice? 15:05 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 15:05 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 15:06 don't think so, it's too small 15:06 probably no since it is tiny 15:07 requesting a tiny race that start with a pet cockatrice and a saddle 15:09 [hdf-us] [fh] Saraswati (Oneiron) (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 38049 points, T:3710, quit 15:09 I think cockatrices are actually just MZ_SMALL. 15:10 Very few things are actually MZ_TINY. 15:10 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11 Oh, chickatrices are tiny though. 15:13 <[Demo]> you can play as a trice in slex 15:16 ooh, slex has curses menus now 15:21 [hdf-us] [slex] Zxkuqyb (Dea Coc Fem Cha) averted death, on T:8 15:21 cool first room filled with traps, game 15:30 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:25236 15:31 https://i.imgur.com/UQxUmdN.png 15:32 a winnable run *sigh* 15:33 lol 15:33 FIQ: Note on zxkuqyb 15:33 ugh 15:34 FIQ: Note on zxkuqyb's screenshot... 15:34 zxkuqyb: what's it say? can't view imgur atm 15:34 The cursed wand of death is wrapped but there's a couple of chars missing. 15:35 but there are no menuglyphs, so the issue is not related to that, as we initially thought. 15:35 it's a full screencap of me descending to dlvl2 in slex 15:35 Tangles: ? 15:35 oh 15:35 PuTTY froze for like a 27 seconds and then DYWYPI 15:36 Tangles: I fixed that bug already 15:36 but it's in the grunthack master branch 15:36 heh ok 15:36 K2 never updated it 15:36 and I never pushed it to other variants 15:36 Tangles: the wrapping bug isn't related to sidebar though, that's another thing entirely 15:37 Yeah I'll propagate it at some point. Or just merge the libuncursed changes when they are ready. 15:37 the sidebar thing isn't even a bug 15:37 just not something I cared about until you told me you wanted it fixed 15:37 i pull from the grunthack-dgl branch 15:37 trivial fix 15:37 anyway, the actual bug 15:37 is in menus 15:37 i dont mess with merges as i have a habit of breaking things 15:37 menus will wrap oddly with menuglyphs 15:37 figured Tangles would merge it when you guys felt it was ready 15:38 oh the uncursed thing is seperate 15:38 and unfinished (kind of? I mean, it is working already as-is, better than the current stuff, but there's still work I want to do for it to make it ready for 3.6.x) 15:39 OK... so I'll merge the gh master branch later today, and the uncursed branch later when you are happy with it. 15:41 rikersan: Different question. When Izchak killed you earlier, do you know if that was a bones level? 15:41 actually, I can look at the dumplog. 15:42 !lastgame rikersan 15:42 Tangles: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/r/rikersan/dnethack/dumplog/1513625371.dnh.txt 15:42 Tangles is planning on dumplog reading for the purpose of knowing content for his own game 15:43 Not exactly. 15:44 I just noticed in the logs of my bones syncing script that a minetown bones file was used up, and another was created at about the same time. 15:45 you can't tell from the dumplog if it was bones. 15:45 Chris_ANG: FR: dungeon overview in dumplog. 15:45 :) 15:49 anyhow... good news is the script works. It deletes the old bones first, then copies the new one in its place. This only works because of a change I made last night to streamline the processing a little, without even considering this case. 15:49 In other words.... it works by accident. 15:50 hrm... I should say it _almost_ works. More testing required. 15:53 :) 15:53 i would pray for things to just work by accident :P 15:59 So according to the logs it worked... 15:59 Consumed on remote: ./dnethack-3.15.1/bonM0.T.1.gz (1ab56e11a31ed60e02455ec7c44b7669) 16:00 removed './dnethack-3.15.1/bonM0.T.1.gz' 16:00 Consumed on remote: ./dnethack-3.15.1/bonD0.4.1.gz (a1720596bd380b08711a727e59fb7853) 16:00 removed './dnethack-3.15.1/bonD0.4.1.gz' 16:00 New: ./dnethack-3.15.1/bonM0.T.1.gz (631573837da763018a1428bf5c21de28) 16:00 but it did not create the new file. 16:00 because of this line: 16:01 [ -d $DN ] || debug "No directory $DN - ignored." && continue 16:01 which obviously needs to be: 16:01 [ -d $DN ] || ( debug "No directory $DN - ignored." && continue ) 16:04 The file copy follows this line, but the continue was always bypassing it. 16:06 -!- StatueSurfer has joined #hardfought 16:06 . 16:06 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Client Quit] 16:07 thank you cisco support for hanging up on me twice 16:07 lol 16:09 never made it to a real person 16:09 I have two WAP's that need to be replaced 16:10 this channel is now hardfought-development 16:10 yeah sorry for the offtopic. 16:11 its all good 16:11 never been a topic-nazi 16:12 K2: and yes vendor support is the worst. Though one of our vendors is taking a bunch of us out for steak and beers today at lunch time... so it's not all bad :) 16:13 \o/ 16:13 we're currently bidding on 6 different ERP systems 16:13 i've had free lunch about 4 times now in the last month 16:13 Anyway, gotta go. Back in a little while. 16:13 cya 16:16 [hdf-us] [dnh] DrakeMarshall (Bin Clk Mal Non) averted death, on T:35887 16:16 !whereis drakemarshall 16:16 rikersan: [hdf-us] DrakeMarshall [dnh]: (Bin Clk Mal Non) T:34811 Sokoban level: 6 16:19 <[Demo]> ha get ciscod 16:19 <[Demo]> pay the price and dont even get the support 16:19 <[Demo]> classic move right there 16:21 [hdf-us] [gh] arnibald (Pri Hum Mal Neu) had mace bestowed upon him by Ishtar, on T:4279 16:29 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) wished for "Blessed +2 fixed quicksilver", on T:26991 16:34 -!- bouquet has joined #hardfought 16:38 [hdf-us] [gh] k2 (Arc Gno Fem Neu), 782 points, T:3779, killed by a kobold zombie, while fainted 16:38 !lastgame 16:38 K2: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/k/k2/gh/dumplog/1513632154.gh.txt 16:41 how'd you get teh silver splint mail? 16:42 grunthack material 16:43 -!- zxkuqyb has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45 -!- zxkuqyb has joined #hardfought 16:51 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:51 what if you were wearing silver splint mail and got bitten by a werefoo 16:52 would you instantly suffer silver damage all over your body and die? 16:55 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 16:56 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 17:04 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 17:04 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 17:19 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 17:19 -!- rikersan has quit [Client Quit] 17:28 *sigh* 17:29 how do I destroy a sink? asking for a friend 17:29 dig it, twice 17:29 but why do you want to...? 17:29 dig or drink 17:29 possibly to retrieve rings in certain variants 17:29 3.6.1 or fh 17:30 yep, dropped all my rings into fh sink 17:33 also, digging a sink once makes a fountain. good to know 17:41 yani lists surprisingly cluttered with garbage today, because I foolishly enabled [Yy][Aa][A-Za-z][A-Za-z] 17:43 bad move 17:44 You can retrieve rings in 361 and FH? 17:44 Indeed. 17:44 ... that would drastically change my early game strat 17:46 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47 FIQ, not sure if you saw my earlier comment, if Stormbringers lack of bloodthristness was intentional, I can't seem to find where artifacts are defined in the source nor have had time to look for it 17:47 artilist.h 17:50 once i have gotten what i want from a sink, i turn it into a fountain 17:53 hothraxxa, I usually drop a few spare polymorph rings down them and see if I get a throne 17:54 i normally don't have those 17:55 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 17:55 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 17:57 [hdf-us] [dnh] DrakeMarshall (Bin Clk Mal Non) consulted the oracle for the first time, on T:36403 17:57 basically, if i find an early sink i don't kick it, i come back when i know i can deal with the pudding 17:58 this means there asre sinks around that i've gotten stuff from and ones i haven't. making a fountain deals with that 17:58 of course so would a ring of polymorph 17:59 by 'that' i mean the fact that i forget which sink i've exploited 17:59 annotate? 17:59 if i remember i do that, yes 18:00 # (=) is i got my ring 18:00 [hdf-us] [nd] ShivanHunter (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 33 points, T:171, killed by a fox 18:03 FIQ: YANI: weapons of reflection only work when you are able to wield the weapon actively, i.e. not incapacitated in some way. 18:03 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 18:03 you really want to make the longbow of diana useless huh 18:04 [hdf-us] [fh] Zxkuqyb (Val Dwa Fem Law), 67244 points, T:12141, killed by Lord Surtur 18:04 actually I was thinking about it as an object property 18:04 zxkuqyb: rip 18:04 how did he kill yo 18:04 aosdict: it is 18:04 but not only 18:04 *you 18:04 welp, apparently Def 20 is not the same as AC -20 18:05 or you have really buffed the dude 18:05 it is not 18:05 FIQ: I was inspired by weapons of reflection, I was not thinking about the Longbow. Though I don't really see how that makes it useless. 18:05 Def starts at 0 and goes up 18:05 also wand of slowing helped 18:05 AC starts at *10* and goes down 18:05 oh yeah that would do it 18:05 -!- hpardis has joined #hardfought 18:05 def 20 is ac -10 18:06 will keep that in mind next time 18:06 -!- rikersan has quit [Client Quit] 18:07 mostly I just panicked when saw that my hp was going down (very unusual) 18:07 that is what hp tends to do 18:07 but yeah 18:07 being slow is bad 18:07 really bad 18:07 giants were doing 1 or 2 per hit 18:08 yeah, I've noticed slow is brutal in fh 18:08 it's like being stressed 18:08 at normal speed 18:08 speedwise 18:08 scary 18:09 but probably looks funny af 18:09 dying in slo mo 18:10 YANI: Remove the Fake Wizard's Towers from the game (as special levels, at least). You can now just walk into the bottom floor of the Wizard's Tower. 18:10 trying to slooooowly turn around and run away while a kobold just keeps kick you in the balls again and again at the regular speed 18:10 kicking* 18:11 K2: why was zxkuqyb's dumplog never created? 18:11 finally done w/ meetings 18:11 ugh 18:12 [hdf-us] [fh] dumptest (FIQ) (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 2461 points, T:22, escaped 18:13 !lastgame 18:13 FIQ: (sorry, no dump exists for fh:FIQ) 18:13 dang 18:15 i dunno FIQ, you tell me 18:15 did you break dumplogs with your last update? 18:15 [hdf-us] [4k] FIQ (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 0 points, T:7, killed by a falling object 18:15 !lastgame 18:15 FIQ: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/F/FIQ/nhfourk/dumps/2017-12-18%2023%3A15%3A22%2C%20FIQ-Wiz-Gno-Mal-Neu%2C%20died.txt 18:15 K2: dumplogs work fine when testing here 18:15 K2: try updating 18:16 maybe there's something wrong with the one on server 18:16 that I later fixed 18:16 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:16 last update i did was this morning my time 18:16 there was some unpushed commits 18:16 I pushed them now 18:16 see if that fixes it 18:16 ok wait one 18:17 -!- StatueSurfer has joined #hardfought 18:17 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 18:18 [hdf-us] [fh] More Tests Conducted (FIQ) (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 0 points, T:3, killed by a falling object 18:18 !lastgame 18:18 FIQ: (sorry, no dump exists for fh:FIQ) 18:18 :( 18:18 i noticed from this morning the GNUmakefile was changed 18:19 i edited it of course for the server, wonder if something affecting dumps made its way in 18:21 yup i see it 18:21 gdammit FIQ lol 18:22 CPPFLAGS += -DPUBLIC_SERVER 18:22 CPPFLAGS += -DDUMPDIR=\"/dumplog\" 18:22 were omitted 18:22 so I am not to blame 18:22 ok 18:22 :) 18:23 oh yeah 18:23 they ended up in the configuration root 18:23 https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/F/FIQ/fiqhack/ 18:23 here is a list of affected games (look at the ones today): https://scoreboard.xd.cm/recent.fh.html 18:23 move them all to dumplog 18:23 i'll move them 18:23 to fix it 18:23 cool 18:23 [hdf-us] [nd] ShivanHunter (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 2277 points, T:2736, killed by a watchman 18:24 why would you leave those two lines out of your GNUmakefile 18:24 well public server i can see 18:24 but the dump? 18:24 there is a default DUMPDIR 18:24 no idea why it didn't work on server 18:24 but yeah 18:24 I didn't remove those btw 18:24 [hdf-us] [fh] UncleFetus (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 20848 points, T:2049, drained by a gnomish wizard's spell 18:24 I just added mail.o to nethack/ 18:25 was that you 18:25 !lastgame 18:25 FIQ: (sorry, no dump exists for fh:UncleFetus) 18:25 guess not 18:27 FIQhack updated (us and eu) 18:27 [hdf-us] [fh] K2 (k2) (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 0 points, T:219, killed by a falling object 18:27 !lastgame 18:27 K2: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/k/k2/fiqhack/dumplog/2017-12-18%2023%3A27%3A39%2C%20K2-Mon-Hum-Mal-Neu%2C%20died.txt 18:28 StatueSurfer: FYI fiqhack plays best with a terminal bigger than 80x24 (you get stuff like sidebar, etc, that way) 18:28 you can play as you wish though, of course 18:28 just figured I'd let you know 18:28 okay 18:28 K2: cool, it works 18:28 of course there's a sink on DL1 when i'm not playing a tourist 18:28 heh 18:34 what the... 18:34 a shark just appeared in my game 18:34 on DL2 18:34 on land 18:34 polymorph 18:34 clearly 18:34 [hdf-us] [fh] Rambunctious Playtester (StatueSurfer) (Cav Dwa Fem Law), 19290 points, T:341, killed by a shark 18:34 ouch lol 18:34 how's that for a YAAD 18:35 i was too stunned just by seeing to shark to properly react to the situation 18:35 !lastgame 18:35 K2: (sorry, no dump exists for fh:StatueSurfer) 18:35 hmmm 18:35 oh i see 18:35 older game 18:37 !lastgame 18:37 K2: (sorry, no dump exists for fh:StatueSurfer) 18:37 interesting. I moved his dumplog to the right folder 18:38 dumplog? 18:38 not dumps 18:38 https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/N/NCommander/fiqhack/dumplog/2017-12-18%2008%3A01%3A03%2C%20NCommander-Pri-Elf-Mal-Cha%2C%20died.txt 18:38 interesting dump map 18:38 its always been dumplog 18:38 heh he died inside a jelly 18:39 ok food brb 18:39 that might be why the map looks that way 18:39 looks so lonely.. 18:39 because he was engulfed 18:39 Nah, I just like to pretend the dungeon exists 18:39 that or he's in the dogley dimension 18:39 poor NCommander :( dying all alone 18:39 don't worry he had an ochre jelly for company 18:40 I called him Wilbert 18:40 !lastgame 18:40 FIQ: (sorry, no dump exists for fh:StatueSurfer) 18:40 amazingly 18:40 there is still no dump for my game 18:40 !lastgame AmyBSOD 18:40 NCommander: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/A/AmyBSOD/fiqhack/dumplog/2017-12-08%2011%3A13%3A05%2C%20Erotic%20Thai%20Bitch-Sam-Hum-Fem-Law%2C%20died.txt 18:40 ... it's not a SLEX game? 18:40 !lastgame StatueSurfer 18:40 StatueSurfer: (sorry, no dump exists for fh:StatueSurfer) 18:41 nice character name 18:41 !lastgame Elbereth 18:41 NCommander: No last game for Elbereth 18:41 <[Demo]> damn i might be in the kind of spot where im wishing for geno scroll 18:41 !lastgame StatueSurfer 18:41 FIQ: (sorry, no dump exists for fh:StatueSurfer) 18:41 <[Demo]> thats not a good thing to do 18:42 no idea why Beholder isn't seeing it 18:42 [Demo], beats wishing for two blessed scrolls of remove curse 18:42 the scoreboard does 18:42 oh well 18:42 -!- bouquet has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:42 https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/S/StatueSurfer/fiqhack/dumplog/2017-12-18%2023%3A34%3A37%2C%20Rambunctious%20Playtester-Cav-Dwa-Fem-Law%2C%20died.txt 18:42 [Demo], (I did that to save an ascension run at the zeroth hour) 18:42 !tell ais523 thank you for adding YANI tags to discussions so I don't miss them! Much appreciated :) 18:42 Will do, aosdict! 18:42 <[Demo]> im about to roll up on r'yleh and i dont play mind flayer games 18:42 <[Demo]> was able to take mmf out with a throne geno 18:42 NCommander: more surprisingly, it's a fiqhack game 18:43 amy doesn't really seem to like fiqhack a whole lot 18:43 FIQ, to be fair, you're not trying to vaporize a player on Dl:1 18:44 NCommander: are you sure? https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/S/StatueSurfer/fiqhack/dumplog/2017-12-18%2023%3A34%3A37%2C%20Rambunctious%20Playtester-Cav-Dwa-Fem-Law%2C%20died.txt 18:44 <[Demo]> shit i think im gonna have to do it 18:44 no you have to wait until DL2 18:44 :P 18:44 i got killed by a shark 18:44 ON LAND 18:44 hooray for polymorph 18:44 Did it have laser beams on it's head? 18:44 it may as well have 18:45 * NCommander has been tempted to actually break down and really see if I can figure out how to ascend SLEX but its a stupidly daunting task 18:45 Watching Visual Studio Code shit itself working on references was exciting 18:46 hey can i get some feedback on some adjustments i made to the alignment system for my variant? 18:46 NCommander: I don't want jonadab to stop being able to argue that slex is unascendable by anyone who isn't Amy. 18:46 i made the penalties for attacking and killing peacefuls a lot tougher 18:46 * aosdict gets keyboard ready to write down StatueSurfer's changes 18:46 aosdict: There's a backup argument to the effect that it's not streakable. 18:46 i made attacking a peaceful a -10 penalty 18:47 StatueSurfer: So if you kill a peaceful, you have to kill 2-3 crossaligned hostiles to get back up to max alignment? 18:47 StatueSurfer, that won't combo well with stormbringer 18:47 StatueSurfer: that seems scaled okay for the late game but very harsh in the early game 18:48 <[Demo]> fuck it dont judge ud do it too if u were me 18:48 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of genocide", on T:28398 18:48 as with so many things, nethack's alignment record system works best in the ten first levels of the game, and not well after that. 18:48 lesson for this variant: don't attack a peaceful 18:50 if you thought that what too much, then in combination with this it's really harsh: you can't gain alignment for killing a coaligned monster 18:50 ever 18:50 doesn't vanilla already do that 18:50 you only gain alignment for killing crossaligned 18:50 i think you gain alignment if they were generated hostile 18:51 yeah if it was generated hostile you gained alignment 18:51 not as much as crossaligned 18:51 StatueSurfer: I think jonadab is arguing that these adjustments don't go far enough 18:51 * NCommander notes he always thinks "you were devotely aligned" even though its not the max 18:51 because any alignment penalty is fairly easily recovered 18:52 aosdict: meh 18:52 people should *try* 18:52 to strengthen the claim 18:53 like how much further can i go 18:53 you instantly die if you attack a peaceful?? 18:53 StatueSurfer: in FIQHack, you can displace peacefuls 18:53 StatueSurfer: If you haven't taken a good hard look at just how _MANY_ alignment points the player gets for killing cross-aligned hostile monsters, you should. Hint: it makes a metric tonne look tiny. 18:54 StatueSurfer: most alignment system adjustments focus on stopping you from gaining boatloads of alignment points with crossaligned kills, not increasing the penalties. 18:54 Any alignment record rebalance that doesn't change that, is going to be effectively irrelevant.~ 18:54 looks like somewhere between 5 and the absolute value of teh monsters alignment 18:54 FOr every single monster. 18:54 Now think about how many cross-aligned hostile monsters you kill in NetHack. 18:55 If you aren't playing pacifist, you're just always at or very close to maximum. 18:55 aosdict: "most" 18:56 only 4k dose this I think 18:56 4k is the only one I know about 18:56 hence, most :P 18:56 As a knight, I've cleared out three large leprechaun halls while exploring one dungeon level, and checked with a stethoscope I'd picked up: I was still pious. 18:57 was this like after you'd murdered someone 18:57 oh right 18:57 knights can't attack sleeping opponents 18:57 jonadab: what variant lets you have several l halls on one level? 18:58 StatueSurfer: Right, I got "caitiff" for every single leprechaun. It mattered not. 18:58 aosdict: 3.4.3-nao 18:58 I... did not think that was possible. 18:58 It is possible. 18:58 so drop the alignment gain to 1? 18:58 Several shops on one level is also possible in theory, but less likely because shops are excluded if there's a second entrance/exit. 18:59 StatueSurfer: That's Fourk Barbarian. 18:59 It's effectively the same, because the number of monsters is so large. 19:00 i mean they do have to be cross-aligned so i think this puts neutrals a slight disadvantage 19:00 (I felt this was ok for Barbarian, because I intend for that to be the easy newbie role.) 19:00 * NCommander wants to play nethack but is tired :( 19:00 playing nethack while tired is :( 19:00 NCommander: Play Dwarf Fortress. It's impossible to screw up even if you're slap happy. 19:00 Fortress mode, I mean. 19:00 there 19:00 jonadab 19:00 don't lie to the kids 19:00 jonadab, you'd be surprised at how much epic fail I can managed in DF 19:01 reverted my 2nd alignment rebalance back to my 1st 19:01 the 1st worked better IMO 19:01 * NCommander once brought a fortresss of 150 dwarfs down to six in two ingame months :) 19:01 isn't the entire point of dwarf fortress that you will eventually screw up no matter what 19:01 Personal best 19:01 NCommander: And then you had 150 again after the next migration wave? 19:01 jonadab, I might have, but I magmaed them due to king (this was a 23a game) 19:02 and then two years without migrants before I too deeped it in a community game 19:02 aosdict: I haven't figured out how. Even forgotten beasts don't seem to do much, really. They kill one or two dwarves, life goes on. 19:02 jonadab, go to the circus 19:02 i'm pretty sure you're the greatest DF player in history jonadab 19:02 StatueSurfer: Eh, no. 19:02 by a wide margin 19:02 StatueSurfer: Have you read GlazedCoast? 19:02 * NCommander vaguely remembers reading it 19:02 is he one of the guys who colonized Hell 19:02 If you think DF is hard, you must read GlazedCoast. 19:03 He colonized an evil glacier. 19:03 Deathgate was the first community fort that managed to colonize the clowncar 19:03 ANd deliberately did DUMB stuff. 19:03 And could not lose. 19:03 glaciers used to be hard :/ 19:03 Pre-caverns 19:03 Dwarf Fortress is one of the very few games I actually have found that I dislike the newer versions 19:04 I've heard a number of people say that DCSS gets worse over time. 19:04 DCSS? 19:04 I personally have only played one version of it, so I don't really know. 19:04 dungeon crawl stone soup 19:04 Actually, I take that back 19:04 i.e., the _other_ popular major roguelike, besides NetHack and Angband. 19:04 DF A mode gets more interesting, fortress mode gets buggier and I find less engaging 19:05 but I never managed to get into A mode super heavily 19:05 hmm.. should I at least read what's new in DF... haven't played it for like 6 or 8 years 19:05 zxkuqyb, you can launch invasions now 19:05 I keep meaning to try playing ADOM, but honestly I feel ADOM approaches SLEX levels of insanity at times. 19:07 don't tell mtf that! 19:07 -!- greqrg has joined #hardfought 19:08 I found ADOM harder to get into as a new player than Angband, but not as bad as DCSS. 19:08 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed Sir Garland, on T:28663 19:08 (In that regard.) 19:08 Put it on the back burner to play more NetHack variants and try Angband. May get back to it at some point. 19:08 I hate ADoM's timer 19:09 Angband never appealed to me 19:09 I do keep meaning to bring up the original PC-ROGUE and get the amulet and escape 19:10 i don't know if this is true 19:10 ooh, there's a ssh server for Rogue 19:10 but i read there's a bug in the original Rogue 19:10 where the food ration is an OP weapon 19:10 is this true? 19:12 StatueSurfer, some versions 19:12 okay 19:16 It also doesn't work on some platforms. It's due to the food ration having an undeclared variable in its stats which can cause it to become godslayer 19:16 -!- bouquet has joined #hardfought 19:16 so jonadab it seems that you're basically saying that the only way to balance the alignment system is for kills to never grant any alignment 19:17 StatueSurfer: Not sure about never, but the criteria definitely have to be reconsidered. 19:17 Either that, or you take the dnethack approach and make the penalties Do Things to your _max_ alignment. 19:17 Well, that is Fourk's approach for everyone but Bar. 19:17 aosdict: Well, not entirely. I mean, knights get alignment for killing hostile dragons, priests for undead. 19:18 hmmm 19:18 4k's alignment rework is easily my least liked part of 4k 19:18 StatueSurfer: The Fourk approach of making it different for every role isn't the only possible way to go. 19:18 FIQ: Propose something better that _works_. 19:19 yes, the fact that I don't have better alternatives 19:19 And by "works" I mean killing a bunch of sleeping monsters as a knight is a Bad Idea. 19:19 is why I don't express my distaste for it 19:19 except when it is brought up 19:19 allthough I prefer fiqhack's approach 19:19 set alignment to 0, then decrease, on penalties 19:20 i wonder why you'd prefer that approach :p 19:20 That prevents you from always being close to maximum (if you do things you're not supposed to), granted. 19:20 But it leaves recovering very very seasy. 19:20 *easy 19:20 not that easy 19:21 not if you're neutral 19:21 There are no lawful or chaotic monsters in the dungeon that you can kill :-( 19:22 aren't undead like the only chaotic monsters in the upper dungeon 19:22 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed the Nightmare, on T:28988 19:22 well and minor demons and regular demons 19:22 the Nightmare? 19:22 NCommander: That's Slash'EM. 19:22 That need not concern us here. 19:23 Anyone who tries to explain how Slash'EM's alignment record is balanced is going to just get laughs. 19:23 elves are chaotic 19:23 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) destroyed Lich, the Fiend of Earth, on T:28996 19:23 Except in dnethack, but drow are chaotic there. 19:23 jonadab: no that is dnethack 19:24 even so the vast majority of monsters in the upper dungeon are neutral i believe 19:24 StatueSurfer: A lot of them are, yes. 19:24 Chris_ANG: the Dex thing was initially a continuous function, but since Nethack hates floating-point numbers... the to-hit formula officially doesn't use them now :/ 19:25 slash'em's alignment record system is no worse than vanilla 19:25 not better either 19:25 and I had the same concerns with the dropping weapons thing, but it was ais' idea 19:26 i'm thinking maybe killing demons in Gehennom should always give the player alignment...? 19:26 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed Kary, the Fiend of Fire, on T:29030 19:26 since you're cutting your way to the Amulet 19:27 yes 19:27 more ways to gaining alignment 19:27 is just what the game needs 19:27 ha ha ha 19:27 !who 19:27 FIQ: [hdf-us] ShivanHunter [nd] DrakeMarshall [dnh] Demo2 [dnh] 19:27 FIQ: [hdf-eu] No current players 19:27 see my goal wasn't to punish FOREVER for attacking a peaceful 19:27 jonadab, I didn't play much of SLASH'EM, but I felt it's early game was not well balanced. From what I've read, it's end game was much better than vanila 19:28 it was just to make it so you have to spend some effort atoning for it 19:28 NCommander: Slash'EM in general is not well balanced. 19:28 StatueSurfer: ah, so you intend to not do what 4k does 19:28 lose alignment 19:28 ruined forever 19:29 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed Kraken, the Fiend of Water, on T:29079 19:29 FIQ: That is a significant exaggeration. 19:29 I mean, yes, that's what it was like in 4.3.0.2 19:29 yes 19:29 It was a work in progress. 19:29 It's better now. 19:29 i haven't forgotten 19:29 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed Tiamat, the Fiend of Wind, on T:29104 19:29 it is still like that 19:29 for samurai 19:30 jonadab: do most roles still need to sacrifice unicorns to enter the quest 19:30 and some roles has weird means of alignment gain 19:30 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) killed Garland, on T:29125 19:30 that can be hard to pull of realibly 19:30 like knights 19:30 aosdict: No. 19:30 [hdf-us] [dnh] Demo2 (Sam Clk Fem Law) destroyed Chaos, on T:29138 19:31 jonadab: you tell me how a samurai get the alignment to do quest 19:31 Samurai has the toughest time of all roles, granted. 19:31 With alignment, that is. 19:31 If any role should get alignment slowly _in the absence of doing anything bad_, it's Samurai. 19:31 There's a thought. 19:32 I will consider that. 19:32 -!- deadnoob has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:32 -!- hpardis has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:32 And then double their penalties :-) 19:32 jonadab: how do I keep my rings safe in 4k? 19:32 I was planning that for alignments, but maybe it works better for roles. 19:32 -!- hpardis has joined #hardfought 19:32 FIQ: That is a work in progress. 19:32 I mean, I could say put them in your bag, but. 19:32 but they are rings... 19:32 jonadab: like maybe it would make more sense for that to apply to all lawfuls, and Sam get it as a side benefit. 19:32 Yes. 19:33 unlie wands 19:33 how exactly are samurai punished compared to vanilla in 4k? 19:33 you can't just tae them out when you need them 19:33 rings aren't very useful when inside bags 19:33 FIQ: Several kinds of wands aren't really useful that way either. 19:33 Fire, lightning, death, ... 19:33 StatueSurfer: you don't gain alignment by killing monsters 19:33 ^ 19:33 Mainly that. 19:34 at all? 19:34 even crossaligned hostile? 19:34 Also, their skill caps are adjusted, which is also a work in progress. 19:34 jonadab: you can keep them inside bags until you need them 19:34 StatueSurfer: Correct. 19:34 easily enough 19:34 that sounds 19:34 FIQ: No, because when you need them, you can't spare a turn. 19:34 slightly imbalanced 19:34 To take them out. 19:34 if you can't spare a turn to tae out a wand 19:34 you are playing poorly 19:34 oh dear 19:35 *take 19:35 it means you did a tactical mistake 19:35 FIQ: I mean, if you _can_ spare turns for fooling around with bags, then you don't need those wands really. 19:35 Because it's not an actual emergency. 19:35 Teleportation is another example. 19:35 do you also keep FH open at all times? 19:35 It's an escape item. 19:36 and tele 19:36 Teleportation, definitely. 19:36 oh 19:36 Full healing, I would if I could. But that doesn't work evne in vanilla. 19:36 that's why you're so slow 19:36 because you have to spend time finding fire traps 19:36 Because I like to have escape items available? 19:36 so your stuff doesn't burn up 19:36 Fire traps don't damage wands? 19:36 in open inventory 19:37 they damage scrolls 19:37 and poitions 19:37 Wand of teleportation. 19:37 otions 19:37 -i 19:37 *potions 19:37 (and books) 19:37 Books you stash. 19:37 jonadab: wands of full healing? 19:37 [hdf-us] [nd] ShivanHunter (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 712 points, T:1035, killed by an orc zombie 19:37 FIQ: Full healing you can't keep in inventory even in vanilla, because potion. 19:38 Both fire *and* frost kill it. 19:38 that was my point 19:38 I have plans to mitigate this somewhat in .5 19:38 FIQ: So because _some_ useful items can't be kept in open inventory, none of them should be, is that what you're saying? 19:38 anyway, unless you keep out a backup wand of everything, you can definitely get caught needing one from a bag when you don't want to use a turn 19:38 because wands run out of charges in the heat of battle 19:39 hothraxxa: Some wands (like cold, sdd) aren't needed in combat. 19:39 i am thinking o teleport 19:39 hothraxxa: my point was that you can afford to stash them 19:39 inbeteen 19:39 [hdf-us] [nd] ShivanHunter (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 171 points, T:310, killed by a large kobold 19:39 *inbetween 19:39 and if you can't, you did a tactical mistake 19:39 sleep 19:40 well fiq, more power to you if you can anticipate what happens when the mob shows up 19:43 -!- bouquet has quit [Quit: bouquet] 19:45 [hdf-us] [nd] ShivanHunter (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 445 points, T:1065, killed by a little dog called Scrappy 19:47 okay so to enter the quest in vanilla does your max alignment or your alignment record need to be 20? 19:47 or both? 19:52 [hdf-us] [slex] k2 (Val Dwa Mal Law), 111 points, T:433, killed by a monster (marine goblin) 19:53 okay both need to be at 20 19:53 ooh 19:53 no wonder 19:53 FFCBot is not in #em.slashem.me 19:53 err FCCBot 19:55 dang this is a tough balancing act 19:56 because if you make killing all monsters not give alignment, you basically screw the player unless there's an altar somewhere in the main dungeon 19:56 and if you give them any alignment for killing even crossaligned hostile monsters then killing peacefuls doesn't really matter 19:57 so the only solution seems to be making only some monsters give alignment when killed 19:58 and then it becomes a whole other issue of exactly what to allow the player to gain alignment from... 19:59 StatueSurfer: there is another solution, in which you give less-rewarding or more infrequent ways to gain alignment that don't depend on religion 19:59 like what? 20:00 well, like what I said a bit ago, one thing I want to do is give lawfuls a very slow trickle of alignment points that you don't have to do anything to get, except not do unlawful things 20:01 oh right 20:03 but then how do neutrals and chaotics gain alignment? 20:04 if we can come up with more widely applicable examples of chaotic behavior, that would be good for chaotics 20:05 -!- greqrg has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05 hm 20:05 like maybe angering peacefuls gives them an alignment bonus (would need to watch out with gremlin splitting though) 20:05 that seems to imbalance chaotics 20:06 if the whole point is that the player *isn't* supposed to go around wantonly murdering peaceful monsters without suffering the consquences 20:06 "wantonly murdering peaceful monsters" sounds chaotic to me 20:06 I'm not sure why it is a penalty for all alignments, tbh 20:06 <[Demo]> yeah that bothers me 20:07 game balance obviously 20:07 ? 20:07 <[Demo]> when im chaotic i wanna do whatever i want 20:07 so that everyone doesn't play chaotics to murder everything 20:07 without penalty 20:07 <[Demo]> counter it 20:07 i'm trying to balance the alignment system, not wildly imbalance it in favor of one alignment 20:08 StatueSurfer: currently, as several people have said, you can murder everything without (a real) penalty anyway, *regardless* of alignment 20:08 again: i'm trying to fix that 20:08 currently i seem to have the "you can't murder peacefuls without lasting consequences" end covered 20:09 but not the "that doesn't wreck your run completely" down yet 20:10 anyway before you made your suggestion about letting chaotics and nobody else in my variant walk all over peacefuls and get rewarded for it 20:10 i was going to make a suggestion 20:10 based on the example of the chaotic archaelogist 20:10 who gets rewarded for destroying a historic statue 20:10 wait no 20:10 digging up a headstone 20:11 that should be a small alignment bonus for all chaotics too, come to think of it 20:11 that's what chaotic archaelogists get rewarded for 20:11 yeah see that kind of thing 20:11 not as much as cha arc, but something 20:12 StatueSurfer: I'd like to hear your argument as to why attacking peacefuls being a penalty for everyone is better for balance. 20:14 well it was obvious looking at the source code that killing peacefuls was supposed to be a big deal first off 20:14 and to me it makes sense that your deity might be mad if you kill innocent monsters 20:14 at least for lawfuls and neutrals 20:15 thus, not doing it for chaotics gives them something very easy to do that the other two alignments can't take advantage of 20:15 yes, and...? 20:15 chaotic already suffers from some downsides 20:15 that lawful and neutral don't 20:15 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Bar Hum Mal Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:57088 20:16 That was Dr Worm actually 20:17 \o/ 20:17 i think that except for the artifact issue, chaotics in vanilla have fewer disadvantages than lawfuls 20:18 K2: Dr Worm is your worm brother 20:18 or sister 20:18 i can just improve artifacts if that's your primary concern 20:18 depending on your view, as worms are hermaphrodites 20:18 name it Pat 20:18 StatueSurfer: artifacts aren't really the point of contention, since I assume they'll eventually be rebalanced anyway 20:18 K2: Still sad your worm avatar died on Astral last game 20:18 but stuff like appeasing your god being harder 20:19 its ok 20:19 K2: Dr Pat? 20:19 my spirit worm had a great run and served its purpose 20:19 that is a popular brand of rolling tobacco in Australia (I used to smoke it, back in those bad old days) 20:20 Also, "Dr Pat" is the name of a local Doctor (a lady) in the village 20:20 they're aren't a whole lot of ways for chaotics to anger their deities to begin with (except in my variant, by killing peacefuls) 20:20 but i guess i could include an exception if you're wielding stormbringer and you're chaotic 20:24 :) 20:25 [hdf-us] [gh] k2 (Arc Gno Fem Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:4953 20:26 no shame 20:28 any further objections aosdict? 20:28 E - a +2 pair of iron gauntlets of power and brilliance (being worn). 20:28 nice contradiction 20:29 A - [ a +0 cloak of protection (being worn) 20:29 B - [ a +1 studded leather armor (being worn) 20:29 D - [ an uncursed +0 fedora (being worn) 20:29 E - [ a +2 pair of iron gauntlets of power and brilliance (being worn) 20:29 F - [ a +0 pair of leather snow boots (being worn) 20:29 this armor shop just improved my game considerably 20:29 does the "brilliance" counter the negative effects of iron? 20:30 i dont think so 20:30 i dont have any spelled learned to test 20:30 well equipped for skiing 20:30 heh 20:30 you have snow boots 20:30 and a cool hat 20:30 (it'll blow off as you go down the slopes, you know 20:30 ) 20:30 StatueSurfer: wait, deities would be angered by a chaotic killing something with stormbringer? that sounds really unintuitive 20:31 lol Grasshopper 20:31 that's literally the opposite of what i said 20:32 basically wielding stormbringer is the only way a chaotic can kill peacefuls without incurring a penalty 20:32 just let 'em kill anyway, they are chaotic 20:33 or assume that chaotic = chaotic good (elves and rangers) and that lawful = lawful evil (mafia, assassins guild, etc) 20:33 and turn that completely around 20:34 chaotics don't have so many disadvantages that giving them an overwhelming alignment advantage over the other two alignments balances the game 20:35 I just have fundamental disagreements with the whole law vs neutral vs chaos alignment trichotomy 20:35 but anywaya that is what we have 20:35 yes it's not perfect because there's no good-neutral-evil axis 20:35 but i've taken to the wiki's interpretation of the alignments 20:36 which includes that chaotics basically just flout the normal customs of society 20:36 see: alignment bonus for direct theft 20:37 clearly this means elves live in a socialist communes 20:37 F - a +2 pair of iron shoes of displacement (being worn). 20:37 rofl 20:37 <[Demo]> probably do, i dont trust elves 20:37 they're hippies 20:37 diry hippies 20:37 dirty 20:38 they dont need to shave, but still... hippies! 20:38 I;ve known some great hippies, also been ripped off by others 20:38 my wife is hippy-dippy 20:38 Grasshopper: yes, nethack's alignment axis is basically a line from lawful good to chaotic neutral 20:38 and orcs just rob shops because that's how transactions are done in their normal society 20:38 had expensive camera stolen by hippies that I gave a lift too once 20:38 i told her as long as she shaves her pits and legs i'm cool with it 20:38 <[Demo]> heh 20:38 from a commune and all 20:38 but assuming we are not planning to add a good/evil axis: 20:39 "i want this long sword for 5 zorkmids" "no" "let's fight over it!" 20:39 I've always told my ladies that they don't have to shave 20:39 ^ normal orc business dealing 20:39 some have done so anyway, some just don't anyway 20:39 chaotic *gods* really shouldn't see a problem in you killing a fellow chaotic, it's natural to them 20:40 their business really I don't care so long as they don't pong 20:40 co aligned altar dlvl 4 20:40 chaotic is chaotic 20:40 looking even better 20:40 i'll be dead soon 20:41 okay if i'm going to rebalance chaotic artifacts to not be trash and allow them to kill peacefuls with stormbringer 20:42 i feel like that's sufficiently balanced outside finding non-sacrifice alignment gain methods 20:45 -!- bobbydurrett has joined #hardfought 20:46 -!- shpingrlde has joined #hardfought 20:48 see you all later then 20:48 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:49 see you 20:52 okay then 20:52 chaotics should definitely get an alignment bonus for killing any peaceful 20:52 there 20:54 -!- shpingrlde has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 21:00 [hdf-us] [nd] Grasshopper (Bar Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:57089 21:05 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 21:07 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 21:08 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 21:08 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 21:09 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 21:09 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 21:10 go Grasshopper! 21:17 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 21:17 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 21:18 -!- Kontroll1r has joined #hardfought 21:20 -!- StatueSurfer has joined #hardfought 21:20 hi 21:20 Hello StatueSurfer, Welcome to #hardfought 21:21 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 21:21 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 21:21 -!- Grassy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21 -!- Kontroller has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:22 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 21:22 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 21:22 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23 -!- Grasshopper_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:24 [hdf-us] [nd] krm26 (Wiz Hum Fem Cha), 1214 points, T:1035, killed by a crossbow bolt 21:24 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 21:25 -!- Grassy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:40 -!- StatueSurfer has joined #hardfought 21:47 <[Demo]> so i heard the devteam was gonna change newt's alignment from 0 21:47 <[Demo]> there goes newt neutrality 21:47 I'm not aware of any such plans 21:47 ais523: Message from aosdict at 2017-12-18 18:42 EST: thank you for adding YANI tags to discussions so I don't miss them! Much appreciated :) 21:47 <[Demo]> im sorry ais its a really dumb pun 22:02 -!- bouquet has joined #hardfought 22:08 -!- tacco\unfoog has quit [] 22:39 -!- bobbydurrett has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06 -!- StatueSurfer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:17 -!- hpardis has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:34 -!- rumflump has joined #hardfought