00:03 -!- reapersan has joined #hardfought 00:33 chess 00:37 [un] sullysully (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 1250 points, T:1730, killed by a gnome, while frozen by a monster's gaze 00:42 [nd] Grasshopper (Kni Hum Fem Law) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:65910 01:08 [un] sullysully (Pri Hum Mal Neu) killed the ghost of jailbird, the former Investigator, on T:2386 01:19 !who 01:19 FIQ: Grasshopper [nd] sullysully [un] 01:19 mhm 01:19 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:19 @nd?katheryn 01:19 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 01:20 Grasshopper, that's an interesting pet you have. Not sure why katheryn is invisible though. 01:21 bug_sniper, ki-rin always turn themselves invisible 01:21 oh, I see 01:21 @nd?ki-rin 01:21 @nh?ki-rin 01:21 I was kinda hoping Kathryn might drink some gain level potions, but alas no 01:21 but the elvenking has no problems 01:23 Grasshopper, you're probably wishing your books would automatically name themselves after you read them 01:23 yes! 01:23 It is such a habit for me now 01:26 you're probably also wishing you weren't suck a packrat early in the game 01:26 yes and no 01:27 my packratting allows some pretty funky polypiling in the later game 01:27 more so with spellbooks 01:27 but I need to teach myself to be less so, at least for making ascensions speedier and less tedious 01:28 when I play lawfuls, I often overenchant huge stacks of darts to make +9 (even +10!) Excaliburs 01:28 @le?grasshopper 01:28 No such monster. 01:28 but "thankfully" I found Excalibur in bones this time 01:34 The goblin puts on a splint mail. The goblin suddenly disappears! 01:34 clearly a splint mail of invisibility 01:35 or teleportation 01:35 yes, that :-) 01:35 invisibility would have been "Suddenly you cannot see the goblin" 01:36 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 560 points, 770 turns, killed by a giant rat on hdf-eu 01:36 wererat and his posse 01:36 wererats can be very nasty 01:36 and I'm so used to 3.6.1 elbereth now that I didn't realise it would scare only 1 of the rats before it stopped working 01:39 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:39 The rock mole picks up a clove of garlic. 01:39 why would it do that? 01:40 probably "because it can" 01:40 maybe rock moles use garlic like we use salt 01:41 [nd] Grasshopper (Kni Hum Fem Law) entered the Planes, on T:66695 01:41 [nd] Grasshopper (Kni Hum Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:66695 01:43 [nd] Grasshopper (Kni Hum Fem Law) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:66712 01:44 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 982 points, 1678 turns, killed by a pony on hdf-eu 01:45 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 92 points, 304 turns, killed by a jackal on hdf-eu 01:45 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 01:46 Grasshopper, whose luck is your favorite luck? 01:47 also, are you going to play something else after you win this game? 01:47 like fiqhack or grunthack or slashem extended 01:49 raisse: picking up and eating things actually use the same codepath 01:49 which is... weird, but yeah 01:49 possibly there's a bug in it 01:50 for monsters that is 01:50 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law) wished for "blessed magic marker", on T:23653 01:51 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:51 -!- Jonathanhanes has quit [Quit: vanishes] 01:53 but rock moles don't eat garlic, they just carry it around 01:53 perhaps they're afraid of vampires 01:53 . 01:53 LarienTelrunya: Message from K2 at 2017-10-25 19:07 EDT: thanks, i'm looking into it 01:53 LarienTelrunya: Message from aosdict at 2017-10-25 19:46 EDT: HTTPS says he found a bug in slex - he died and was told "You eaten 1 time" 01:53 LarienTelrunya: Message from K2 at 2017-10-26 22:12 EDT: observe - I'm not gonna go solicit people randomly - remember this for next years junethack :) 01:54 raisse: the point is, if the monster can't eat it 01:54 !tell aosdict "you eaten %d times" is not a bug; it is a nongrammatical sentence, but I decided that it's funny enough to be declared a feature :) 01:54 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 01:54 it will be picked up instead 01:54 ah, right 01:54 but not all monsters pick up things at all 01:55 and some monsters that do pick up things don't pick up everything 01:55 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 01:55 -!- elenmirie_ is now known as elenmirie 01:57 silly bookshop 01:57 2 scrolls, 3 mimics and a Terry Pratchett novel 01:57 no spellbooks at all 01:57 (it's the minetown bookshop, which should have spellbooks) 01:58 so polymorph everything 01:58 what with? 01:58 also I might like the scrolls 01:58 with a potion of change 01:58 K2: what do you mean with that HTTPS quote? 02:03 eep this is 3.6.0 02:04 enchant armor enchants without uncursing 02:04 now I'm wearing cursed +0 gauntlets of dexterity 02:04 (found them cursed -1) 02:04 and can't wear rings 02:06 well 02:06 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 2143 points, 4852 turns, killed by a giant ant on hdf-eu 02:10 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:11 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 02:11 -!- stenno is now known as Guest57965 02:15 !tell Luxidream hahaha, SammyBSOD :D is that based on me always playing samurai? 02:15 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 02:33 [nd] Grasshopper (Kni Hum Fem Law) killed Pestilence, on T:67054 02:33 !lotg Grasshopper 02:33 May the Luck of the Grasshopper be with you always, Grasshopper! 02:36 [nd] Grasshopper (Kni Hum Fem Law) killed Pestilence, on T:67080 02:40 [nd] Grasshopper (Kni Hum Fem Law) killed Pestilence, on T:67108 02:42 [nd] Grasshopper (Kni Hum Fem Law) killed Famine, on T:67131 02:46 [nd] Grasshopper (Kni Hum Fem Law), 3872743 points, T:67169, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/G/Grasshopper/nhdev/dumplog/1507531831.nhdev.txt 02:46 congratulations Grasshopper! 02:46 ... and so it was written in the book of Grasshopper 02:46 thanks LarienTelrunya! 02:47 wow, 3.6.1 shows the text on a t-shirt in inventory view? 02:47 or is that dumplogs only? 02:48 yes 02:53 <+FIQ> Mandevil: Why does Luxidream's GruntHack page list far fewer variants than his other pages? 02:54 FIQ: It's a shortcoming of how the pages are updated. 02:54 Hmm? 02:54 The page only updates when he plays a grunthack game. 02:54 Ah 02:55 It should also update when the number of variant he ever played increases. 02:55 Yep 02:56 Mandevil: Also another thing, only some pages have the First to Ascend link for some reason 02:56 FIQ: Similar reason. 02:57 FIQ: These pages weren't updated since the feature was added. 02:57 This page is recently updated: https://scoreboard.xd.cm/ascended.nh.html 02:57 It still doesn't have the First to Ascend link 02:57 Well, that's an omission. 02:57 I was talking about player pages. 02:57 Sorry 02:58 Only the All page has the first to ascend link it seems 02:58 Mandevil: slex on scoreboard when :D the hdf scoreboard has it too, thereby proving that it can work 02:58 https://www.hardfought.org/nethack/slex-scores/ 02:58 LarienTelrunya: maybe if you were to give a PR 02:58 That's just simple list. 02:58 -!- nht has joined #hardfought 02:58 NHS does much more than that. 02:59 Hm, I'm an op. 02:59 Mandevil has new scary powers 02:59 Better treat him with respect now 02:59 Hi nht 02:59 !who 02:59 FIQ: No current players 02:59 rip 02:59 I have said number of times why SLEX was not added. 02:59 I think reiterating is pointless. 03:05 hi 03:05 Hello nht, Welcome to #hardfought 03:07 Hi Beholder and welcome to #hardfought. Enjoy your stay! 03:07 -!- MTF has quit [Quit: *poof*] 03:07 -!- khoR has joined #hardfought 03:07 Is there no way on the devnull tournament page to see if a given player is in a clan, and if yes, which one? 03:07 -!- MTF has joined #hardfought 03:10 -!- Guest57965 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:19 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 03:19 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 03:20 !streak Grasshopper 03:20 Grassy: Grasshopper Max[nd]: 6 (2017-03-17 - 2017-05-14). Current[nd]: 3 (since 2017-08-20). 03:23 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:32 !tell jonadab You are hereby cordially invited into my devnull clan, the name of which was inspired by you! *bundlebundlebundle* *cuddlecuddlecuddle* ♥ :) 03:32 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 03:34 !tell K2 why am I supposed to remember if someone else does not solicit players for their clans randomly? it's their decision; I, for one, like to use the "machinegun-like" method of trying to get clan members :D 03:34 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 03:35 https://www.hardfought.org/devnull/clans/%F0%9F%92%A9.html why 03:36 FIQ: Ask stenno? 03:37 FIQ: I even had to fix SQLite UTF-8 config to make this work ok. 03:38 lol 03:39 FIQ: Do you use Chrome? 03:45 Oh my god why did I click that ling. 03:45 link* 03:45 I wasn't intending on going blind today... 03:46 Is that enough to make you go blind? 03:47 Lime fosforescent green over black background? Yeah. 03:48 OMG. 03:48 You have never seen original devnull page, have you? 03:49 khoR: Here's what it was like: http://nethack.devnull.net/ 03:49 No, but from your reaction I don't know if I want to... 03:49 xD 03:49 Oh my fucking god what the fuck 03:49 Tiny green glowing text and underlined red. 03:50 Mandevil: Yes, currently 03:50 FIQ: And the emoji displays OK for you? 03:50 Yes 03:50 Note that it does NOT display correctly in Chromium 03:51 For some reason it doesn't work for me in Chrome. 03:51 But that is on a different computer 03:51 I only see recatangle. 03:51 So that might be related too 03:52 khoR: I actually find devnull's page much better than many others 03:52 Because it is bright on dark 03:52 Which is nice 03:53 In web design, bright on completely dark is considered bad. 03:54 Mandevil: yes, it is a horrible principe 03:54 it is much harder to read that way 03:54 this is the only reason I even use chrome/chromium 03:54 because I found deluminate for it and not for any other browser 03:54 previously I used firefox 04:01 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 04:01 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 04:04 I see the poo in chrome 04:04 on that link 04:05 yes, me too (in firefox) 04:07 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 04:07 -!- stenno is now known as Guest21338 04:12 -!- Guest21338 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:15 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 310 points, 1034 turns, killed by a goblin on hdf-eu 04:16 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 54 points, 21 turns, killed by a water demon on hdf-eu 04:28 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 1369 points, 2012 turns, killed by a werewolf on hdf-eu 04:31 [4k] Arnibald (arnibald) (Tou Hum Mal Neu) entered the Sokoban zoo, on T:7479 04:42 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 932 points, 1707 turns, killed by a hobbit on hdf-eu 04:48 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 04:49 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 835 points, 978 turns, killed by an elf zombie on hdf-eu 04:59 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 865 points, 1889 turns, killed by a grid bug, while frozen by a monster's gaze on hdf-eu 05:00 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 17 points, 236 turns, killed by a bolt of lightning on hdf-eu 05:12 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 1479 points, 2018 turns, killed by a manes, while unconscious from rotten food on hdf-eu 05:36 !who 05:36 FIQ: flump [nd] Grasshopper [nd] arnibald [4k] 05:36 ahh 05:50 [nd] Grasshopper (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 2858 points, T:2477, killed by a black unicorn 06:09 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 06:09 -!- stenno is now known as Guest87919 06:10 !tell LarienTelrunya I will not have time for a tournament this November, because I am participating in NaTiDraMo. 06:10 jonadab: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-10-27 03:32 EDT: You are hereby cordially invited into my devnull clan, the name of which was inspired by you! *bundlebundlebundle* *cuddlecuddlecuddle* ♥ :) 06:10 Will do, jonadab! 06:11 aww... jonadab: you should be in my clan anyway, even if you won't play, just to celebrate our long-lasting evil patch partnership :) 06:11 LarienTelrunya: Message from jonadab at 2017-10-27 06:10 EDT: I will not have time for a tournament this November, because I am participating in NaTiDraMo. 06:11 jonadab: Going to miss the last devnull ever? 06:11 Mandevil: Yeah. 06:13 what is NaTiDraMo? 06:13 It's like NaNoWriMo, except instead of Writing a Novel, I am going to attempt to Draw a Tileset. In a month. 06:13 -!- Guest87919 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:14 heh 06:14 that sounds like quite a challenge 06:14 It will be a challenge for me, because my artistic skills are... quite limited. 06:15 jonadab: is that going to further delay fourk 4.3.0.5? 06:15 However, I have chosen an artistic style for this tileset that will hopefully make it a bit easier. In particular, each tile is allowed one basic foreground color, no shading. So that keeps things somewhat simpler than in most tilesets. 06:16 LarienTelrunya: 4.3.0.5 was already definitely not going to make it in time for Junethack 2018, before this decision was made. 06:16 :( 06:17 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 946 points, 1986 turns, killed by a giant ant on hdf-eu 06:17 However, I hope to release 4.3.0.4 in December, if I can get the last kinks worked out of the Windows build process. 06:17 jonadab is getting a cue from the Dev Team. 06:17 so my samurai will still not be able to master his main weapon? 06:18 Why are you obsessed with Samurai? That's not even in the top ten list of things about 4.3.0.4 that need to be addressed. 06:18 e.g. current Sylph balance is *much* worse. 06:19 Besides, Samurai don't even wear high heels. 06:19 why not? in slex they do get the high heels skill :D 06:20 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 169 points, 866 turns, killed by a kobold, while fainted from lack of food on hdf-eu 06:20 also, who ever plays sylphs? 06:20 Right now, nobody plays sylphs. There are reasons for that. 06:20 I do 06:20 well, I did 06:20 Though their healing is still pretty good. 06:21 Well, I for one play non-slex variants during tournaments to get trophies, so obviously a character that has a legitimate shot at ascending and doesn't involve weird shenanigans or pedantic conducts are the best choice. 06:21 Ah, so Barbarian. 06:21 Or Ranger. 06:21 Maybe Wizard. 06:22 urgh, I don't know how to spellcaster in vanilla, because the slightest bit of metal gear means 100% fail for everything 06:22 It doesn't. 06:22 Not by a long shot. 06:22 That... is not even close to being the biggest problem for spellcasters in vanilla. 06:23 The big problem for spellcasters in vanilla is that they have to fight six or seven monsters between the time that they shoot force bolt and the time that they have enough Pw to do it again. 06:23 (I exaggerate. A little. But it's a real problem.) 06:24 Though Fourk kind of addresses the other too, because wielding a quarterstaff reduces failure rates. 06:24 Which is silly. 06:25 ah the energy regeneration problem, and then once you have the wizard quest artifact you have infinite Pw regeneration all of a sudden :P 06:25 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 1186 points, 1205 turns, killed by a dingo on hdf-eu 06:25 LarienTelrunya: Fourk addresses the Pw regen problem, a little too much in .4. I intend to peel it back a bit in .5 06:25 YANI: energy regeneration should not be hungerless. 06:25 As if NetHack was well thought out game... 06:25 Right now, Fourk wizards are OP. 06:25 Mandevil: Heh. 06:27 woo a 5x7 hardware store 06:28 Nice. 06:28 not much that I want/need though 06:29 I can afford a key and a magic whistle and I'll have the cat bring me a towel and a stethoscope 06:30 That's not a bad haul. I mean, sure, you always hope for a magic lamp and a bag of holding. 06:30 And a tinning kit. 06:30 yeah 06:30 BUt a stethoscope and a magic whistle are really nice to have too. 06:30 yes, exactly 06:30 And the key and towel... well, you'd have gotten those soon anyway, but. 06:30 not a single bag though, I'd have liked at least a sack 06:30 Yeah. 06:32 What do people use tinnin kits for? 06:32 I always ignore them. 06:32 Aren't they like super heavy? 06:32 intrinsics 06:32 not super 06:33 But you can just eat the corpses, or does it increase the chance? 06:33 khoR: They're a bit heavy, but you can tin every giant you kill and eat them all, nom nom nom. 06:33 I use them to deal with trolls 06:33 or tin killer bees and get poison resistance without being poisoned 06:33 I usually use GoP so strength is not a issu. 06:33 yes, that too 06:33 issue* 06:33 tins make food safe? 06:33 Most foods. 06:33 I always avoided eating tins of poisonous monsters. lol 06:33 Doesn't work with cockatrice meat. 06:36 YASI: When you eat cockatrice: "This tastes just like chicken! You turn to stone." 06:37 actually maybe it already does that? 06:37 I have not tried it. 06:37 -!- Grassy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37 I don't think it does 06:37 Tangles: If you are a xorn, you can eat it, and it tastes like chicken. 06:37 well, does turn you to stone, doesn't taste like chicken 06:37 ooh 06:38 or a yellow dragon I suppose 06:38 jonadab: Really? that's cool :) 06:38 TDTTOE 06:38 I think so. 06:39 Yes, eat.c line 1671ish. 06:39 (I'm a few commits behind, so it's possible the line number changed slightly.) 06:40 (But if you search for "chicken", you can find it easily.) 06:47 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:34 -!- foos has joined #hardfought 07:34 are eu-hdf bones separate from hdf bones 07:37 if they are, that's a pretty big bummer - just when hdf started having a healthy variety of bones, now one server+variant combo can be entirely populated with bones of one player, again. or desolate 07:38 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 07:38 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 07:40 -!- foos has quit [Quit: *poof*] 07:46 -!- aosdict has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:47 !tell foos all the devnull bones files are going to be cleared before the tournament starts anyway. 07:47 Will do, jonadab! 07:49 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 07:49 -!- HTTPS has joined #hardfought 07:50 argh, all those bones that foos is complaining about are probably mine 07:50 things like that can make me stop playing 07:50 I've been known to skip an entire tournament because people were commenting on my deaths 07:51 Eh, nothing about his comment suggests to me that he had you in mind particularly. 07:51 "bones of one player" can only be me, I've been littering the hdf-eu mines with bones 07:51 And I highly doubt you'll be the only person to die in the tournament. 07:52 not in the tournament, no 07:53 DIED: Tangles (Kni-Hum-Mal-Law), 0 points, 1 turns, slipped while mounting a saddled pony on altorg 07:54 DIED: Tangles (Ran-Hum-Mal-Neu), 107 points, 34 turns, killed by a fire elemental of Venus, while praying on altorg 07:54 damn you Venus 07:54 K2: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-10-27 03:34 EDT: why am I supposed to remember if someone else does not solicit players for their clans randomly? it's their decision; I, for one, like to use the "machinegun-like" method of trying to get clan members :D 07:57 DIED: Tangles (Sam-Hum-Fem-Law), 8 points, 30 turns, killed by a water moccasin on altorg 07:58 DIED: Tangles (Cav-Dwa-Fem-Law), 0 points, 5 turns, killed by a falling object on altorg 07:59 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 2855 points, 4021 turns, killed by an Uruk-hai on hdf-eu 07:59 DIED: Tangles (Arc-Gno-Fem-Neu), 12 points, 64 turns, killed by a jackal on altorg 07:59 if I didn't like *getting* bones so much I'd set !bones so I don't annoy people 08:00 * K2 loves bones 08:00 esp when you find multiple on same level 08:01 I like the little detective stories 08:02 who found the other's grave 08:02 Beholder: hi 08:02 ais523: Message from aosdict at 2017-10-26 22:32 EDT: I was writing up some stuff about design principles and high headroom is one of them, made an attempt to define it and wanted to run it by you: "When the player faces a strategic or tactical problem, the available options should be roughly equally viable." 08:03 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 293 points, 1017 turns, killed by a brown mold on hdf-eu 08:04 DIED: Tangles (Arc-Gno-Fem-Neu), 536 points, 223 turns, killed by a gas spore's explosion on altorg 08:04 !message aosdict I think that's the extremes of high headroom and few people go that far: a better representation would be "when the player faces a strategic problem, choosing a suboptimal option is typically punished only mildly unless the player really persists in making bad decisions" 08:04 err, is that the right syntax? 08:04 Beholder: help 08:04 !help 08:04 ais523: https://www.hardfought.org/nethack 08:04 !tell aosdict I think that's the extremes of high headroom and few people go that far: a better representation would be "when the player faces a strategic problem, choosing a suboptimal option is typically punished only mildly unless the player really persists in making bad decisions" 08:04 Will do, ais523! 08:05 !tell aosdict I'm coming to think that headroom doesn't apply to tactical situations at all (after seeing Crypt of the Necrodancer and HyperRogue); I'll need to write up my thoughts on that at some point 08:05 Will do, ais523! 08:10 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 08:10 -!- stenno is now known as Guest28042 08:10 !commands 08:10 Tangles: available commands are !help !ping !time !pom !hello !booze !beer !potion !tea !coffee !whiskey !vodka !rum !tequila !scotch !goat !lotg !d(1-1000) !(1-50)d(1-1000) !8ball !rng !role !race !variant !tell !source !lastgame !lastasc !asc !streak !rcedit !scores !sb !setmintc !whereis !players !who !commands 08:10 Should really bne part of !help 08:10 -n 08:13 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 2158 points, 2915 turns, killed by an Uruk-hai on hdf-eu 08:14 -!- Guest28042 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:21 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:26 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 87 points, 444 turns, killed by an arrow on hdf-eu 08:34 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 520 points, 3271 turns, killed by a sewer rat, while fainted from lack of food on hdf-eu 08:35 -!- aosdict has joined #hardfought 08:37 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 36 points, 90 turns, killed by a jackal on hdf-eu 08:37 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 4 points, 59 turns, killed by a bolt of lightning on hdf-eu 08:38 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:40 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 42 points, 923 turns, killed by a water demon on hdf-eu 08:41 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 08:41 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 08:43 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu), 427 points, 1019 turns, killed by a hobbit on hdf-eu 08:46 . 08:46 aosdict: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-10-27 01:54 EDT: "you eaten %d times" is not a bug; it is a nongrammatical sentence, but I decided that it's funny enough to be declared a feature :) 08:46 aosdict: Message from ais523 at 2017-10-27 08:04 EDT: I think that's the extremes of high headroom and few people go that far: a better representation would be "when the player faces a strategic problem, choosing a suboptimal option is typically punished only mildly unless the player really persists in making bad decisions" 08:46 aosdict: Message from ais523 at 2017-10-27 08:05 EDT: I'm coming to think that headroom doesn't apply to tactical situations at all (after seeing Crypt of the Necrodancer and HyperRogue); I'll need to write up my thoughts on that at some point 08:47 lol, that was an uncursed amulet of change 08:47 ais523: cool, I thought I was probably off 08:48 I think headroom's about winning and losing, really; it's OK if you make the game harder in response to an unwise / "for fun" decision, as long as it's still reasonably possible 08:49 Urignac says "You be careful with my runed dagger!" 08:51 ais523: so since I'm trying to keep it short and snappy, how about "When the player faces a strategic problem, they are not punished heavily for picking a single suboptimal choice." 08:52 yes, I like that 08:52 headroom is about giving the user options. It does have an effect on difficulty, but it's not the only factor. In NetHack, Tourist has significantly more headroom than Barbarian, but is probably a harder role to win. 08:52 and believe it's true for NetHack 08:53 (Which reminds me, I should do a Barbarian asc at some point.) 08:53 jonadab: I'd argue it's more about not blocking off options (which is almost but not quite the same thing) 08:53 Ok, sure. 08:56 And note that options only count if they're meaningful in some way. Letting the barbarian choose between a battle axe that does d6+2d4 damage versus a mighty runed axe that does 3d5 damage doesn't really count as headroom. 08:56 Eh, from ais' original essay on it, that sounds very close to the infinite-headroom end of the scale 08:57 And a choice between a T-shirt with a funny slogan and a hawaiian shirt, with identical stats, is not a meaningful choice at all. 08:57 (which, yes, is generally higher than anyone balances for) 08:57 aosdict: I'd argue that most commercial non-roguelike RPGs are infinite headroom 08:58 The T-shirt/hawaiian shirt choice, at least as far as strategy is concerned, seems like infinite headroom as well 08:58 aosdict: The T-shirt/hawaiian shirt choice doesn't count as a choice. 08:58 It's purely cosmetic. 08:58 Axe versus bow is a meaningful choice. 08:58 jonadab: yes, which seems like the definition of infinite headroom 08:58 aosdict: No., 08:58 It only counts as headroom if it lets you play the game differently. 08:59 * raisse is rereading the headroom article 08:59 aosdict: jonadab's talking about a choice where both options are clearly pretty much identical 08:59 and thus it isn't really a choice from the strategic sense (but may be from a flavour sense) 08:59 If it's not clear whether an axe or a bow is more powerful, but they're obviously _different_, and you get to pick between them and can use either, that's headroom. 09:00 ais523: based on this sentence: "no matter who you are or which choice you make, it won't affect your odds of winning the game" 09:00 is given as the example of one extreme 09:00 The axe never runs out of ammo and does more damage per hit, but only works at close range, so you have trade-offs, and either path can lead to victory. 09:01 and the choice of shirts (assuming you do have that choice) seems like a textbook example of that 09:02 aosdict: If that were our definition, we could achieve infinite headroom by letting the player choose the color of each piece of armor. "I wanna wear red boots this game." 09:02 Bonus points if this doesn't even change anything about how the boots are displayed, except for listing them in inventory as "red". 09:02 jonadab: yes but the point is that infinite headroom is NOT the goal of a well-designed game 09:03 aosdict: What you're talking about isn't headroom at all. 09:03 NOt _strategic_ headroom, anyway. 09:03 It's just... cosmetics. 09:03 jonadab: I think your comments are out of context with aosdict's 09:06 jonadab: my interpretation is that infinite headroom means that the player's choices do not affect their chances of winning the game 09:07 (and the other extreme is zero headroom where there are perfectly right and perfectly wrong choices) 09:08 DIED: Raisse (Wiz-Gno-Mal-Neu), 1615 points, 2270 turns, killed by a hill orc, while sleeping off a magical draught on hdf-eu 09:08 aosdict: I think that makes sense 09:08 but it's not what jonadab's talking about; he's arguing about what should be defined /as/ a choice, rather than what the effect of a choice should be 09:08 aosdict: strategic headroom is where the player's choices _do_ have effects within the game, and change _how_ the player plays, but don't fundamentally change the odds of winning. 09:09 jonadab: infinite and zero headroom are both seen in practical games 09:09 Brogue can be close to zero headroom, in some seeds. 09:09 Chess has fairly low headroom if your opponent is actually good. 09:10 tic-tac-toe has zero headroom. 09:10 jonadab: it's nonzero in some cases 09:10 the less headroom, the better computers are at it, right? 09:10 e.g. if your opponent starts on an edge tile, you have multiple different ways to draw the game 09:10 I think only if someone makes a mistake? 09:10 ais523: Starting on an edge tile is objectively a wrong move though. 09:10 and likewise, starting in the centre vs. in a corner is a stylistic choice you can make 09:11 Ah, that... maybe. 09:11 but tic-tac-toe is the sort of thing that has very low headroom 09:11 a game like nim has even lower headroom 09:11 Tetris has fairly high headroom. 09:11 Don't know nim. 09:11 jonadab: I think you would argue that infinite headroom is more or less unattainable then? 09:11 in cases where you have any move that wins the game, it's normally one of only a few options 09:12 aosdict: It would be difficult to achieve, certainly. 09:12 aosdict: I'd say infinite headroom is trivial, just make a game with no unwinnable states 09:12 Pokémon, for example 09:12 you can lose individual battles but there's (intended to be) no way to lose the game as a whole 09:12 although people often find sufficiently insane ways to do it 09:13 Hmm, so like a version of NetHack with an overworld and unfinitely many randomly-generated dungeons, and if you lose in one dungeon you just get kicked out and have to go to a different dungeon? 09:14 NOt sure that really works with permadeath, though. 09:15 half of NetHack's mechanics are designed around permaconsequence, and a few around permadeath specifically 09:15 ais523: but assuming the game does have unwinnable states, I think any example I could contrive of where the options are strategically identical would just be deemed a cosmetic choice by jonadab. 09:15 unless you count individual YAFMs as mechanisc 09:15