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00:03 <rikersan> what's the fastest non-killing way to level up?
00:03 <rikersan> that doesn't involve the oracle >.>
00:05 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:21171
00:16 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed figurine of a black dragon", on T:21366
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00:19 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed spellbook of charm monster", on T:21369
00:19 <rikersan> !whereis MTF
00:19 <Beholder> rikersan: mtf [fh]: No details available
00:26 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Cerberus, on T:9857
00:29 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:10212
00:31 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased +3 cloak of displacement", on T:21627
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04:43 <LarienTelrunya> jonadab: Why doesn't your scratchpad ideas include the possibility for having more than one special room per level?
04:44 <LarienTelrunya> (And in fact, why does vanilla have that restriction?)
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05:25 <Beholder> [nd] elagabalus (Pri Hum Fem Neu), 320 points, T:515, killed by a boulder
05:32 <Beholder> [nd] elagabalus (Pri Hum Fem Neu), 1067 points, T:960, killed by a dwarf
05:36 <Beholder> [nd] elagabalus (Pri Hum Fem Neu), 364 points, T:1048, killed by a gnome, while frozen by a potion
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07:32 <jonadab> aosdict: Right, I think we might need some more level generators.  Hmm.  I wonder if I could adapt my forest level generator for the ranger quest fillers.
07:33 <jonadab> I should play around with it some more and see if it can be improved, first.
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07:54 <Beholder> [nd] Raisse (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3907
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08:33 <K2> FIQhack updated
08:33 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-10-07 21:31 EDT: fixed
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08:55 <K2> !who
08:55 <Beholder> K2: k2 [sp] Raisse [nd] Grasshopper [nd] 
08:55 <K2> ooh hey we have over 300 registered players now
09:00 <aosdict> jonadab: Ideally, each quest's fillers should feel different from each other.
09:01 <aosdict> The challenge is that there are several "descent through cave" fillers, and several "cross water" fillers, and several "open wilderness" fillers...
09:01 <jonadab> Yeah, we probably ought to have distinct generators for each quest.
09:02 <aosdict> There's some leeway to do this, of course, since some of the existing ones need to be replaced anyway because they don't make sense. (See: the Archeologist going through a room-and-corridor maze in the basement of the College of Archeology.)
09:02 <jonadab> There's a Bilious patch by L that generates town levels, that could maybe be adapted for Tou quest.
09:02 <jonadab> Do you have Perl on your system?
09:02 <aosdict> A forest one would be good for Ranger quest, though potentially only for upper filler levels.
09:02 <jonadab> Err, perl, I mean.
09:03 <aosdict> yeah
09:03 <jonadab> If so, have a look at my forest level generator, maybe run it a few times, let me know what you think it needs to make it better.  https://github.com/tsadok/level-generator-perlscripts/blob/master/forest.pl
09:03 <jonadab> Currently, I'm not really happy with it.
09:03 <jonadab> But I can't figure out what it needs.
09:04 <jonadab> (It's not worth translating to C and compiling into the game until we get an algorithm we like, IMO.)
09:04 <aosdict> hmm apparently it needs libraries
09:04 <jonadab> Ah.
09:05 <jonadab> Yes, that's not unlikely.
09:05 <jonadab> Term::ANSIColor for one, I suspect.
09:05 <aosdict> Why is output in HTML? For color?
09:05 <jonadab> Oh, I forgot about that, that's an optional feature.
09:05 <jonadab> No, it can do color terminal output.
09:06 <jonadab> But people wanted me to generate HTML sample levels for some reason.
09:06 <jonadab> So I made it do that.
09:06 <jonadab> Then forgot about it.
09:06 * aosdict knows virtually nothing about perl and is probably running it incorrectly
09:06 <aosdict> $ perl forest.pl
09:07 <jonadab> If you comment out line 31, appendhtml($map), the output to the terminal won't change.
09:07 <jonadab> And it _probably_ doesn't need any HTML-related modules then.
09:07 <jonadab> I think.
09:09 * aosdict deletes the entire appendhtml sub
09:09 <aosdict> now it works
09:09 <aosdict> hmm, any easy way to turn off background coloration?
09:10 <jonadab> For everything?  Yeah, in showmap(), hang on, let me find the line.
09:10 <jonadab> Line 459
09:11 <jonadab> Currently says this:  print color "$$map[$cx][$cy]{fg} $$map[$cx][$cy]{bg}" if $usecolor;
09:11 <jonadab> Instead, make it say this:  print color "$$map[$cx][$cy]{fg}" if $usecolor;
09:11 <aosdict> okay, so the first map generated a large square swamp
09:11 <aosdict> which I don't really like because of its squareness
09:12 <jonadab> Yeah, trying to make a forest level look non-rectangular while still enclosing the edges with trees is tricky.
09:13 <jonadab> I should probably work a bit more on that, maybe have a function that goes around the edges and makes a varying-thickness band of trees, or something.
09:13 <aosdict> I don't see why you have to enclose the edges with trees.
09:13 <aosdict> You just can't move off the map.
09:13 <jonadab> Hmm.
09:13 <jonadab> There's a thought.
09:14 <aosdict> (as exemplified in the Bar quest which has one giant empty level)
09:15 <aosdict> now, this generator seems like it will allow maps which require crossing water to get anywhere
09:15 <jonadab> Currently it does.  That could be changed.
09:16 <aosdict> the second one I generated has a thin wall of trees down the middle and would require the player to cross several water spaces to bypass it.
09:16 <aosdict> I guess you could also chop them down.
09:17 <jonadab> Currently it's possible to get a river you just plain have to cross.
09:17 <jonadab> But that could be changed if it's considered a problem.
09:17 <jonadab> When I wrote this, I was thinking optional branch, rather than ranger quest.
09:18 <jonadab> But now I think adapting it for the ranger quest might be a better idea.
09:20 <jonadab> Pushed an update that makes the tree border around the edge optional (and off by default).
09:20 <jonadab> Also, HTML output is now off by  default.
09:24 <jonadab> I've made myself a note to look into guaranteeing walkability with respect to the water.
09:24 <aosdict> In 3.6 guaranteeing a path from upstairs to downstairs is easily solved with the traceline function
09:24 <aosdict> Though it might look a bit odd if it goes straight across a river, but hey, stepping stones :)
09:37 <FIQ> 4k has shallow water
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09:47 <aosdict> huh. It's actually impossible to have stone terrain on a tree filler level right now.
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10:17 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) was given their Quest, on T:11535
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10:18 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Pindar, on T:11617
10:24 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Aglaope, on T:12336
10:44 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Medusa, on T:14812
10:57 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) wished for "blessed 2 scrolls of charging", on T:16029
10:57 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +3 greased premium heart", on T:16031
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11:00 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased figurine of a throne archon", on T:16036
11:02 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased figurine of a surya deva", on T:16040
11:05 <rikersan> oh my god something just polymorphed the tulani and archon
11:05 <rikersan> will that time out?
11:05 <FIQ> 'no
11:05 <rikersan> oh, nvm, they just.. made more friends?
11:05 <rikersan> I don't know
11:05 <rikersan> I did'nt realize the surya could summon monsters
11:07 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Sir Garland, on T:16389
11:14 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) destroyed Lich, the Fiend of Earth, on T:16842
11:14 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Kary, the Fiend of Fire, on T:16863
11:20 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Kraken, the Fiend of Water, on T:17653
11:20 <raisse> who is the Fiend of Air?
11:20 <rikersan> tiamat
11:20 <rikersan> not the caveman nemesis
11:20 <raisse> ah yes, makes sense
11:20 <rikersan> @d?tiamat
11:20 <Beholder> tiamat ~3~ giant (H) | Lvl: 6 | Diff: 8 | Spd: 6 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: special | AC: 0 | Attacks: 2d10 weapon physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, infravisible
11:21 <rikersan> uh not that
11:21 <rikersan> basically just a spellcasting dragon, probably the hardest of the nemesises due to her speed
11:21 <rikersan> lich and kary are really easy, and kraken is only moderately harder
11:21 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Tiamat, the Fiend of Wind, on T:17693
11:21 <aosdict> isn't it the fiend of wind, not air, though?
11:21 <rikersan> aosdit: well yeah but eh
11:21 <raisse> oh, "wind" not "air"
11:21 <rikersan> :(
11:22 <rikersan> I lost a pet somehow
11:22 <rikersan> my throne archon named "Nero said archons are good"
11:22 <rikersan> huh, warmachine doesn't get a msg?
11:22 <aosdict> wait, so what part of dnethack is it actually that contains all these monsters in order?
11:22 <rikersan> all chaotic ones?
11:23 <rikersan> it used to be all, not anymore
11:23 <aosdict> is this the chaotic quest?
11:23 <rikersan> it's the library of law, where axus, the first law quest bos, resides
11:23 <rikersan> this is chaotic yes
11:23 <rikersan> the chained chaotic monsters is in the first real "level" of the law quest
11:24 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Garland, on T:17956
11:24 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) destroyed Chaos, on T:17967
11:24 <rikersan> :D
11:24 <rikersan> I never moved
11:24 <rikersan> just kept hitting . on the stair
11:27 <Tarmunora> rikersan: Archons summon, Surya Devas don't
11:27 <rikersan> hm
11:27 <rikersan> they must though
11:27 <rikersan> I lost my archon but I still kept getting new pets
11:27 <rikersan> tulani don't I know that
11:27 <Tarmunora> Mine never did
11:27 <rikersan> shrug 
11:28 <rikersan> tarmunora: it's happened twice so far, on the walk from the castle to the chaos quest and through the quest
11:29 <rikersan> >_> I also forgot a source of striking, so I've just left all the balls but black and earth behind
11:29 <rikersan> I just grabbed the statue of lich
11:33 <Tarmunora> Suryas can not 'summon nasties' at all
11:33 <Tarmunora> @d? Surya Deva
11:33 <Beholder> No such monster.
11:33 <Tarmunora> Right...
11:34 <Tarmunora> But they get clerical casting, not magical
11:42 <aosdict> jonadab: For the Monk quest locate level, I was imagining a set of wide switchbacks going across the level from left to right, with scattered trees, waterfalls and stuff like that
11:43 <FIQ> ohhhhhh
11:43 <aosdict> but as mentioned yesterday, a flat level doesn't really have the ability to "feel" like that because all it can use is walls
11:44 <aosdict> and rock, I suppose, which isn't any different
11:44 <FIQ> I found out why Rodney in FIQHack randomly teleports to you early
11:44 <FIQ> because "but muh symmetry" :P
11:45 <FIQ> Rodney has teleportitis
11:45 <FIQ> So it is proccing randomly
11:45 <FIQ> And Rodney, being Rodney, ignores noteleport
11:45 <FIQ> I should perhaps fix that
11:51 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a fix
11:51 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
11:53 <rikersan> tarmunora: huh I dunno
11:53 <K2> FIQhack updated
11:53 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-10-08 11:51 EDT: pushed a fix
11:53 <rikersan> maybe the archon was lost later than I thought
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12:10 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:67367
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12:38 <jonadab> FIQ: Isn't Rodney supposed to be generating in a "wait for the player to get into LOS" state?
12:40 <FIQ> he does
12:40 <FIQ> but he has innate teleportitis
12:41 <FIQ> which was proccing in wiztower because Rodney ignores noteleport
12:41 <FIQ> and he picked the player as his target, due to teleport control
12:41 <FIQ> so I just disabled teleportitis from proccing in wiztower
12:41 <FIQ> for both players and monsters (including Rodney)
12:41 <FIQ> it's generally noteleport anyway
12:42 <jonadab> IMO, monsters who are in a "wait for the player" state shouldn't be making decisions using their normal AI.
12:43 <FIQ> probably not
12:43 <jonadab> Also, their teleportitis should almost certainly not trigger in that state.
12:43 <jonadab> This could be relevant for some quest leaders as well.
12:43 <FIQ> teleportitis ignores stun
12:43 <FIQ> and paralyzation
12:43 <FIQ> why should it respect idling
12:44 <jonadab> "Wait for the player" is clearly intended to introduce monsters at a certain point in the game.
12:44 <FIQ> but I can see the merit in making things with teleportitis + teleport control choose to "cancel" the prompt
12:44 <FIQ> which would cover the Rodney case
12:44 <FIQ> as well
12:45 <FIQ> jonadab: of course, hence why I added a restriction
12:45 <FIQ> but perhaps it could be restricted better
12:49 <FIQ> there, pushed a better fix
12:49 <FIQ> alongside some other tweaks
12:51 <FIQ> jonadab: what if some more powerful special abilities reduced max pw?
12:51 <FIQ> so you could let players play around with more powerful things without breaking balance by setting a soft cap on use
12:57 <aosdict> but potions of gain energy?
13:00 <FIQ> sure
13:00 <FIQ> you go tell me how to easily get a large amount of them that doesn't involve farming :)
13:00 <FIQ> also, that means you aren't doing alchemy with them
13:03 <aosdict> well, some of the special abilities you talked about previously don't really have much to do with magic, so maxPw also doesn't seem appropriate for anything nonmagical
13:09 <FIQ> TIL that this is a thing: http://www.commitlogsfromlastnight.com/
13:19 <Beholder> [nd] Raisse (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) had Magicbane bestowed upon her by Thoth, on T:1710
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14:33 <jonadab> aosdict: I pushed an update to forest.pl that guarantees a stair-to-stair path.
14:34 <aosdict> neat
14:35 <jonadab> (The guaranteed path is shown in brown, and extra open tiles added around it in green, just so we can see what it's doing; in-game, these would just be the same forest floor as the rest of the open floor on the level.
14:35 <jonadab> )
14:36 <jonadab> It also knows how to do shallow water (when converting water to walkable), but by default it doesn't (just uses floor).
14:37 <jonadab> Though the guaranteed path is floor in any case.
14:40 <jonadab> Hmm, I think I might like it better if the guaranteed path did use shallow water (when that's enabled).
14:43 <FIQ> does shallow water rust shoes?
14:44 <jonadab> Yes.
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14:49 <aosdict> ooh, interesting enhancement to the bard idea / tame player monsters in general: when a tame player monster dies, it spawns a ghost over its corpse, because it's a player monster.
14:49 <FIQ> yes, I intend to add this in fiqhack
14:50 <FIQ> but I haven't yet
14:50 <FIQ> also a grave + 80% inventory cursing
14:50 <FIQ> maybe not with the 33% chance of Rodney showing up, though
14:50 <aosdict> what 33% chance of Rodney showing up? is that a thing in FIQhack?
14:51 <FIQ> undeadturn+charm
14:51 <FIQ> player monster bones in fiqhack
14:51 <aosdict> I know it's flavored as him resurrecting the dead player to his own side
14:51 <aosdict> but I didn't think he actually appeared
14:51 <FIQ> yes
14:51 <FIQ> well no he doesn't
14:52 <FIQ> but flavour-wise he does
14:52 <FIQ> perhaps he uses his magic from wiztower though
14:52 <FIQ> so he doesn't have to show up in person
14:52 <Beholder> [un] William (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 490 points, T:1045, killed by a jackal
14:53 <jonadab> aosdict: Let me know if you can think of other ways to enhance forest.pl
14:54 <jonadab> I'm still not sure it's quite right yet.
14:58 <aosdict> jonadab: I still don't like the square swamps. Too regular.
14:59 <jonadab> Hmm, can you show me a screenshot of what you mean?
14:59 <aosdict> haha, just got one where the pathway went down the center of the river instead of across it
14:59 <jonadab> Heh.
15:00 <jonadab> Yes, the path is actually generated completely without regard for what's currently on the map.
15:02 <jonadab> As in, the subroutine that decides where the path will go doesn't even have access to the map variable.
15:04 <jonadab> But yeah, I'm not seeing anything that looks like a square swamp to me.
15:04 <Tarmunora> !who
15:04 <Beholder> Tarmunora: mtf [fh] 
15:04 <jonadab> Unless you mean that the whole level is rectangular, but that's fundamental to NetHack.
15:04 <Neko-chan> !who
15:04 <Beholder> Neko-chan: mtf [fh] 
15:04 <Neko-chan> I don't get it
15:05 <Neko-chan> !who jonadab 
15:05 <Beholder> Neko-chan: mtf [fh] 
15:05 <Neko-chan> ::ascii shrug face::
15:05 <jonadab> Neko-chan: He's probably the only person playing on the server right now.
15:05 <Neko-chan> oh, mtf is a person?
15:05 <jonadab> Yes.
15:05 <jonadab> !whereis mtf
15:05 <Beholder> jonadab: mtf [fh]: No details available
15:06 <jonadab> Oh, right, whereis doesn't do NH4.
15:06 <jonadab> (Or vice versa.)\
15:06 <FIQ> !tell ais523 with the nethack4 pet food bug, dragon pets would probably be nearly useless since they'd eat every corpse
15:06 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
15:06 <aosdict> jonadab: https://gist.github.com/copperwater/f3b2847e1e7486d2b74e541076d297d8
15:06 <FIQ> jonadab: Gehennom:35
15:07 <Neko-chan> I am beginning... to understand
15:07 <Neko-chan> I feel myself fill up with knowledge!
15:07 <Neko-chan> I grow more powerful by the day, thanks to you jonadab!
15:10 <jonadab> FIQ: Do you see anything square in the first one here:  https://gist.githubusercontent.com/copperwater/f3b2847e1e7486d2b74e541076d297d8/raw/5219f1ca6af687faea3f21ed5f6ed48573a6666d/gistfile1.txt  What I am seeing looks halfway between circle and triangle maybe, if I use my imagination?  I do not see square.
15:10 <jonadab> The fourth one too.
15:10 <jonadab> aosdict: I do see what you mean about the rectangular river.
15:10 <FIQ> Trees
15:10 <FIQ> Water
15:10 <FIQ> Not sure what you mean with square
15:11 <FIQ> Doesn't look like a square to me, aside from the fact that NetHack floors are always rectangles
15:11 <aosdict> look at the water
15:11 <FIQ> With #2 I do agree
15:11 <FIQ> It's basically a long line
15:11 <FIQ> with no fuzzing at all
15:11 <jonadab> Yeah, I see the rectangular river.
15:12 <aosdict> in the first one, it's from (12,5) to (30,17)
15:12 <FIQ> I'd not call it rectangular though
15:12 <aosdict> It's not the best example since the path goes right through it, let me see if I can get something better
15:13 <jonadab> aosdict: The solution to "oh no they dammed the river" is doshallow 1
15:13 <jonadab> But that requires shallow water support, of course.
15:13 <FIQ> Rivers could use more fuzzing
15:13 <jonadab> Yeah.
15:13 <FIQ> To look more natural
15:13 <jonadab> I'm going to look into that.
15:13 <aosdict> maybe run a cellular automaton on it for a couple iterations
15:14 <aosdict> Does Fourk not support shallow water on all its installs?
15:14 <jonadab> aosdict: Fourk always does.
15:14 <jonadab> If I adapted this for Fourk, doshallow would be turned on.
15:15 <jonadab> It solves a LOT of level-design problems where you want water for aesthetic reasons but don't want to make it uncrossable.
15:15 <aosdict> Yes, with shallow water, I would say any path crossing the water should be kept as floor with low probability (stepping stones! Let me have realistic brooks in nethack!) but otherwise converted to shallow water.
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15:38 <jonadab> Pushed an update for the rivers.
15:42 <jonadab> Also, pushed a second update that allows pools to go up to the edge of the level, instead of starting one tile short.
15:42 <aosdict> ... I should just clone that repository, shouldn't I.
15:43 <aosdict> someone mentioned "pool rooms" in here the other day. YANI: pool rooms contain sea monsters but also some sunken goodies
15:43 <aosdict> jonadab: did you see what I meant with the square swamp thing?
15:44 <jonadab> aosdict: Frankly, no.
15:44 <jonadab> I'm seeing very-fuzzy-edged circles.
15:45 <jonadab> But, I mean, yes, technically there is a bounding rectangle.  I could expand that a bit, I guess, see if it makes a difference.
15:46 <aosdict> maybe turn down the fuzz a bit if it's meant as more of a round shape?
15:50 <jonadab> Hmm.  I adjusted the fuzzing of pools a bit.
15:51 <jonadab> NOt sure I like how that turned out, maybe I should change the formula in a different way.
15:59 <jonadab> aosdict, FIQ: pushed another update.  See what you think of pools now.
16:02 <aosdict> ... and I've got five in a row with no water. Curse you RNG!
16:02 <jonadab> Heh.
16:02 <jonadab> You can actually adjust those probabilities at the command line now.
16:02 <jonadab> perl forest.pl poolprob 100 will give you pools every time.
16:02 <jonadab> poolprob 1 riverprob 100 will give you rivers most of the time.
16:03 <aosdict> Ah, so that's how you're supposed to pass arguments to perl scripts.
16:03 <jonadab> For this I didn't bother with real argument processing, just went my %cmdarg = @ARGV;
16:03 <jonadab> It's easier.
16:05 <aosdict> I can see some squarish ones still, but only because I'm trying really hard to find them.
16:05 <jonadab> So this is an improvement?
16:05 <aosdict> And the vast majority don't have them.
16:05 <aosdict> Yes.
16:06 <jonadab> Ok.
16:06 <jonadab> It uses a bit more CPU, but that'll be completely immaterial once we put it in compiled C.  It's barely noticeable even now.
16:08 <jonadab> I'm doing the fuzzing differently, and also I entirely got rid of the bounding boxes: each blob does a fuzzed distance vs radius calculation for every tile on the level.
16:09 <jonadab> The rivers can still make straight edges if the RNG demands it.
16:20 <jonadab> Hmm.  What other features could Ranger quest filler levels potentially have, besides lots of trees and some rivers and lakes and such?
16:22 <aosdict> Ranger doesn't need anything else, really. The problem is, we have been doing all this for only the *upper* filler levels, if we stick to the quest text.
16:22 <jonadab> Incidentally, I am thinking that I should make elves able to always "squeeze" diagonally past trees.
16:22 <jonadab> The quest text can be altered if desired.
16:23 <jonadab> But what does it currently say about the lower levels?
16:23 <jonadab> Let me guess:  it implies it's a cave?
16:23 <aosdict> Well, locate is the Cavern of the Wumpus, and then you descend below that to get to the Cavern of Scorpius.
16:23 <jonadab> (Are any of the quest goal levels NOT in caves?)
16:23 <jonadab> Ah, Cavern, right.
16:23 <jonadab> Hmm.
16:24 <aosdict> Healer
16:24 <jonadab> Oh, right, and also knight.
16:24 <jonadab> Knight quest is all water.
16:24 <jonadab> So Much Fun.
16:24 <aosdict> Nah, knight is in a cave at the end.
16:24 <jonadab> Oh.
16:24 <jonadab> Right, I've only been there once.
16:25 <aosdict> Rogue is arguably not a cave
16:25 <aosdict> Tourist is entirely in Ankh-Morpork so it *shouldn't* be in a cave, but it uses cavern fill.
16:27 <jonadab> Incidentally, if the game engine could handle it, I'd make the internal level change mechanic within most of the quests use portals rather than stairs, because I'd like for them not to have to be underground, flavor-wise.
16:27 <aosdict> Part of the problem is that the concept of the downstairs makes level designers think it's descending into a dungeon, hence lots of caves.
16:27 <jonadab> But you can't have two portals on the same level, because of technical data-structure reasons.
16:27 <aosdict> jonadab: in my proposal I'm basically saying to stick stairs on opposite edges of the map
16:28 <jonadab> Right, I'd like to nuke all underground aspects from most of the quests.  Caveman being an obvious exception.
16:28 <jonadab> And call it a hill?
16:28 <aosdict> Yeah, or just try to make it feel like moving sideways instead of down.
16:28 -!- bgiannan has joined #hardfought
16:29 <aosdict> I would say that Monk and Archeologist also should keep their downward aspects past the locate level, and Samurai too, probably.
16:29 <aosdict> (I like Samurai's lower filler levels a lot.)
16:29 <jonadab> Oh, Arc, right.
16:30 <jonadab> Sam quest is a multi-level castle, isn't it?
16:30 <jonadab> Actually, it's arguable that the Sam quest could go _up_ instead of down, for that reason.
16:30 <aosdict> But not for technical reasons.
16:31 <jonadab> And yes, I'm ok with the Monk quest going down if your nemesis is the Earth Lord or whatever.
16:31 <jonadab> (I remember the Monastery of the Earth Lord being a level there.)
16:31 <aosdict> I wonder if that's supposed to be an epithet for Master Kaen
16:31 <jonadab> And Arc going down makes all kinds of sense.
16:31 <jonadab> Dunno.
16:31 <aosdict> The Monastery of the Earth Lord is stolen from the Rogue locate level.
16:32 <jonadab> aosdict: Ah, that might be the one I redid the level design for, keeping only the name.
16:32 <aosdict> My proposal has the Arc going through jungle upper filler levels to get to the Tomb of the Toltec Kings, and then downwards after.
16:32 <aosdict> Because Indiana Jones.
16:32 <K2> neat
16:33 <K2> snakes, tigers, jaguars, etc
16:33 <jonadab> Ah, right, revised Monastery of the Earth Lord:  https://github.com/tsadok/nhfourk/blob/master/libnethack/dat/Monk.des#L110
16:33 <jonadab> aosdict: That makes sense.
16:33 <jonadab> Not sure how to make a jungle level different from a forest level, though.
16:33 <jonadab> Other than different fauna.
16:34 <aosdict> Fauna is probably fine.
16:34 <aosdict> I should add that.
16:35 <jonadab> Hmm, what jungle fauna does NetHack have?  Pythons, crocodiles, iguanas, tigers, monkeys, ...
16:36 <aosdict> Lynxes, jaguars
16:36 <jonadab> Possibly bats?
16:36 <aosdict> Giant eels, arguably
16:36 <aosdict> No, bats should go into the *lower* filler levels, in the tomb.
16:37 <jonadab> Oh, right, yes.
16:37 <jonadab> You can also put snakes down there.  "Why does it always have to be snakes?"
16:37 <aosdict> Snakes are already the "quest monster" for Arc
16:37 <jonadab> And mummies, etc.
16:44 <Beholder> [fh] giann (bgiannan) (Val Dwa Fem Law), 29349 points, T:1563, quit
17:14 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed afix
17:14 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
17:17 <FIQ> jonadab: should MMoM give branchporting?
17:17 -!- noty has joined #hardfought
17:17 <FIQ> magic mirrors in some legends can do that kind of stuff, not sure if there is predecent on not doing that for MMoM
17:17 <aosdict> FIQ: I'd favor that if it didn't give Knight-only double spell damage
17:18 <aosdict> because I just do not like that effect's restriction
17:19 <K2> FIQhack updated
17:19 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-10-08 17:14 EDT: pushed afix
17:20 <aosdict> FIQ: what proportion of your pushes are for fixes? Maybe we should have Beholder announce them
17:21 <FIQ> aosdict: you can see commit log
17:21 <FIQ> https://github.com/FredrIQ/fiqhack/commits/4.3.0
17:32 -!- greqrg has joined #hardfought
17:34 <aosdict> That doesn't show which were pushed separately, but yeah
17:36 <FIQ> what do you mean?
17:53 <FIQ> jonadab: if you drop a bunch of potions of water, eventually shallow water should form
17:54 <FIQ> do it a bunch more and you make deep water
18:13 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed magic marker", on T:32983
18:17 -!- Jendic has joined #hardfought
18:19 <Jendic> ok, nethack isn't showing walls right for some reason
18:19 <Jendic> or corridors
18:20 <K2> looks ok for me
18:20 <K2> (watching your game)
18:21 <Jendic> instead of crisp lines I'm seeing ▒ where walls and corridors should be
18:21 <FIQ> options -> symset
18:22 <Jendic> it's set to IBMGraphics_2
18:22 <FIQ> try setting it to something else
18:22 <FIQ> like DECgraphics
18:23 <Jendic> oh that's much better
18:23 <Jendic> thanks!
18:24 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought
18:24 <ais523> Beholder: any messages?
18:24 <Beholder> ais523: Message from aosdict at 2017-10-07 08:35 EDT: I'm always up for a discussion of design philosophy
18:24 <Beholder> ais523: Message from FIQ at 2017-10-08 15:06 EDT: with the nethack4 pet food bug, dragon pets would probably be nearly useless since they'd eat every corpse
18:27 <aosdict> FIQ: if you drop *and break* a bunch of potions of water
18:27 <FIQ> aosdict: right, of course
18:28 <aosdict> "aww man, all these potions of water I put into my stash broke and got everything else wet"
18:39 <Tangles> lol I got hilighted here... FIQ was talking about floors always being rec....
18:40 <FIQ> rectanglesular
18:40 <K2> heh
18:42 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) performed the invocation, on T:34300
18:49 <ais523> YANI: you can't #dip an object in a potion unless it's physically small, but you can #tip the potion onto it or throw the potion at it
18:50 <aosdict> heh, paxed's github avatar makes him look like he's always reading the thing above him
18:52 <aosdict> ais523: I feel like that just complicates the interface for no gameplay benefit, though...
18:53 <jonadab> aosdict: I thought of potentially another difference between (Ran quest / temperate) forest and (Arc quest
18:53 <aosdict> I do like the idea of holy water hand grenades, though.
18:53 <ais523> I think that works in vanilla? it just doesn't do enough damage for anyone to care
18:54 <ais523> the documentation is set up to imply that that's the main use, although I don't know whether that's a hideous case of misprioritisation or whether it's intended to avoid spoiling its use for blessing items
18:54 <jonadab> aosdict: I thought of potentially another difference between (Ran quest / temperate) forest and (Arc quest) jungle:  jungle might have more water, possibly up to replacing most of the floor with (shallow) water.
18:54 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: sorry for my connection]
18:55 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought
18:55 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) wished for "blessed greased fixed partly eaten figurine of a surya deva", on T:20354
18:56 <FIQ> hmm
18:56 <ais523> jonadab: you're making me think "rain cloud" should be a monster
18:56 <FIQ> I wonder how broken, if at all, summon nasties is if someone abuses it into oblivion
18:56 <jonadab> ais523: I bet some roguelikes have that.
18:56 <ais523> FIQ: it'd make a good shield on Air or Astral
18:57 <FIQ> yeah
18:57 <ais523> jonadab: DCSS has it as an invocation, I think (sort of like a spell), rather than a monster
18:59 <FIQ> MTF has been streaming his current knight run with commentary, pretty interesting to follow
19:00 <FIQ> ais523: in general I think I prefer how DCSS does spells (except the miscast stuff) over NetHack
19:00 <FIQ> much more unique effects, and synergies
19:01 <ais523> FIQ: I dislike the philosophy behind it, in that a lot of spells are rejected which I think would be interesting too
19:01 <ais523> but what they do admit is also often interesting
19:02 <FIQ> ais523: I disagree with dcss design in general
19:02 <FIQ> "if it can be exploited, remove it"
19:02 <FIQ> but yeah
19:02 <ais523> FIQ: playing hyperrogue made me reconsider that, in that the game has exactly one thing that it's possible to grind, you get an advantage from doing so, and doing so it really tedious
19:03 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Axus, on T:21200
19:03 <ais523> actually two, if you consider starting the orb run to be a grind
19:06 <Beholder> [fh] Emberelle (psilynt) (Kni Hum Fem Law), 47284 points, T:4949, killed by a Woodland-elf
19:09 <aosdict> ais523: wasn't there a Dudley strip about rain cloud monsters?
19:12 <ais523> possibly?
19:12 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought
19:13 <rikersan> tarmunora: lol
19:13 <rikersan> but seriosuly since when can archons turn to stone o-o
19:13 <rikersan> that scares me
19:13 <Tarmunora> It is a magical spell
19:13 <rikersan> I was already almost killed when a black light hit my tulani
19:13 <Tarmunora> The Dark One likes to cast it
19:13 <rikersan> I konw that
19:13 <rikersan> I didn't realize archons also could
19:14 <rikersan> at lvl 27 at least
19:16 <rikersan> well shit he can deadly touch?
19:16 <rikersan> or is that oona
19:17 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed Oona, on T:22115
19:18 <rikersan> ooh mirror brand is nice
19:31 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed the Platinum Dragon, on T:22781
19:31 <rikersan> I did?
19:31 <rikersan> that's new
19:37 <K2> \o/
19:37 <rikersan> ?
19:39 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9]
19:41 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) entered the Planes, on T:36198
19:42 <rikersan> good luck mtf!
19:42 <K2> \o/ = yay!
19:42 <rikersan> at me?
19:42 <rikersan> lol
19:42 <K2> yeah
19:42 <rikersan> thanks tho
19:42 <K2> platnium dragon kill
19:42 <rikersan> I mean
19:42 <rikersan> it wasn't hard
19:42 <rikersan> >_>
19:42 <rikersan> he can't shoot through walls
19:42 <K2> ah well
19:42 <rikersan> but my pets can
19:42 <rikersan> cuz bugs are cool
19:43 <rikersan> I'm just waiting for them to kill the golem now
19:43 <rikersan> not warmachine but the other noe
19:43 <rikersan> arsenal
19:47 <rikersan> huh he doesnt' get a msg
19:48 <Tangles> Arsenal should get a livelog afaik... might be issues with Beholder.
19:49 <aosdict> !8ball is beholder having issues?
19:49 <Beholder> aosdict: Ask again later
19:49 <rikersan> beholder is coping with them himself
19:49 <rikersan> don't push him aosdict
19:49 <Tarmunora> !8ball Beholder, do you need a hug?
19:49 <Beholder> Tarmunora: Better not tell you now
19:49 <rikersan> lol
19:50 <Tarmunora> !8ball Beholder, do you need a drink?
19:50 <Beholder> Tarmunora: Very doubtful
19:50 <rikersan> !8ball mind if I hug you anyway
19:50 <Beholder> rikersan: Outlook good
19:51 <K2> my names beholder and i like warm hugs
19:52 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) reached the Astral Plane, on T:36369
19:52 <K2> wooot
19:52 <FIQ> ais523: hmm, if you have a spare wish for astral, isn't a coaligned unicorn corpse safer than OA if you want to go to just one altar?
19:52 <FIQ> since it would work regardless of alignment, no?
19:52 <ais523> FIQ: I'm not 100% sure that works on high altars
19:52 <ais523> I know they have some special cases related to them
19:53 <rikersan> is the server having issues?
19:53 <FIQ> server works fine
19:53 <FIQ> I'm watching MTF's stream and he has no issues
19:53 <ais523> and permaconverting yourself on one seems like the sort of thing we'd have thought of
19:53 <rikersan> nope that's me ignore that
19:54 <rikersan> that's just me don't worry fiq
19:54 <FIQ> ok
20:05 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20:09 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Cha), 256708 points, T:36494, ascended
https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/m/mtf/fiqhack/dumplog/2017-10-09%2000%3A09%3A31%2C%20MTF-Kni-Hum-Mal-Cha%2C%20ascended.txt
20:10 <Tangles> grats MTF!
20:10 <K2> nice!
20:13 <Tangles> not that there's anyone called MTF here... FIQhack has been getting a lot of attention lately though, which is a good thing :)
20:13 <FIQ> MTF was streaming on twitch, was pretty cool to follow
20:13 <K2> MTF used to hang out here
20:15 -!- MTF has joined #hardfought
20:15 <FIQ> K2: used to? :P
20:15 <K2> speak of the devil
20:16 <K2> congrats MTF!
20:16 <MTF> Hey guys =D thanks a bunch ^^
20:16 <Beholder> MTF: Message from rikersan at 2017-10-04 16:52 EDT: I'm sorry for your loss
20:16 <MTF> hahah
20:16 <MTF> last weeks loss was this weekends win ^^
20:16 <K2> lol
20:16 <MTF> in case you guys haven't tried it yet... riding black dragons and dual wielding lances is awesome
20:17 <ais523> I hadn't even thought about dual wielding lances
20:17 <jonadab> You can dual-wield lances in FIQHack?
20:17 <FIQ> knight run, round #2
20:17 <FIQ> this time without Rodney showing up too early :P
20:17 <Jendic> @MTF Congrats!
20:17 <FIQ> jonadab: not fiqhack-specific
20:17 <MTF> now that dragonbane is an artifact lance in fiqhack, yes you, can jonadab =P
20:17 <ais523> I think you can dual-wield regular lances in vanilla
20:17 <MTF> thx =D
20:17 <ais523> I'd just never thought of it
20:17 <jonadab> FIQ: Wait, I thought all polearms were two-handed in vanilla?  Are lances an exception?
20:17 <FIQ> lances aren't 2-handed
20:17 <MTF> yea lances aren't two handed
20:18 <MTF> just ridiculously heavy
20:18 <ais523> jonadab: they're one-handed when mounted, so probably when nonmounted too
20:18 <FIQ> they're really heavy though
20:18 <jonadab> Interesting.
20:18 <FIQ> MTF was having inventory issues all game
20:18 <jonadab> I bet.
20:18 <MTF> 180 weight each
20:18 <jonadab> Yes, I usually drop mine on DL1 when playing knight.
20:18 <MTF> but double jousting is so fun
20:18 <FIQ> MTF: I bet playing the inventory game like that was painful lol
20:18 <jonadab> Because otherwise you are burdened as soon as you pick up anything, even if it's a feather.
20:19 <MTF> FIQ: oh yea, literally every pickup had to go in the bag
20:19 <FIQ> "oh am I'm burdened again... of course"
20:19 <ais523> jonadab: can't you use the carry cap boost from riding, early?
20:19 <MTF> and we we're wiping potions / scrolls constantly to free up space
20:19 <FIQ> *and
20:19 <jonadab> ais523: You can't safely #ride early outside of Fourk.
20:19 <ais523> I know that several starting Tou have their starting Str bumped up a bit by the game (in contravension of the normal formulas) to let them carry their starting equipment
20:19 <FIQ> MTF: I guess the dragon mail weight increase didn't help :P
20:20 <ais523> also I approve of making early riding safe
20:20 <MTF> probably not
20:20 <ais523> really, the knight should just /start/ mounted
20:20 <ais523> it makes flavour sense
20:20 <jonadab> ais523: Yes.
20:20 <FIQ> maybe just make knights able to mount things without fail level-wise
20:20 <ais523> even if they needed a few squires to help them up outside :-D
20:20 <jonadab> FIQ: Yes, it's knights specifically, or maybe players with basic in riding and I gave that to knights, I forget which.
20:20 <MTF> I dunno, I kind of like the riding restrictions
20:20 <ais523> (also, isn't there a strategy involving your starting apples and carrots that guarantees a successful mount, even in vanilla?)
20:21 <MTF> riding is so powerful...
20:21 <FIQ> fast dragon with disintegration is really strong
20:21 <jonadab> MTF: Riding is powerful, but knights have various challenges to compensate.
20:21 <FIQ> didn't watch your last game much, but I could imagine
20:21 <FIQ> and now that I followed your stream... really great heh
20:22 <jonadab> Is it possible to watch the videos after the fact?
20:22 <MTF> it was haha xD I feel like a whole new world of nethack has been opened to me
20:22 <FIQ> jonadab: yes
20:22 <jonadab> Hmm.
20:22 <MTF> jonadab: yup, if you give me 5m I'll make them into highlights and post them here
20:22 <FIQ> MTF: oh and try to not have twitch remove your videos last time :P
20:22 <MTF> lolll
20:22 <FIQ> *like
20:22 <FIQ> jonadab: MTF streamed the entire game in 2 sittings, which was a total of around 13h I think
20:23 <jonadab> FIQ: Wow.
20:23 <jonadab> Might want to break those up into 45-minute chunks or something.
20:23 <FIQ> MTF: at least there wasn't any major bugs this time around, aside from 2 cases of muxy/mxy oddities
20:23 <FIQ> jonadab: just because they're long doesn't mean you have to watch it all in one go :P
20:25 <FIQ> Tangles: and yes, I intend to finalize a few things, and try to iron out bugs as I find them, and do a proper "formal" release of FIQHack
20:25 <FIQ> several people has been asking for a binary release
20:25 <FIQ> heathens, compiling yourself is the one true way of running things :p
20:26 <jonadab> FIQ: Yes, but it's more convenient to stop at the beginning of video number 4, than to keep track of how many minutes in I was.
20:26 <ais523> jonadab: Twitch's video archiving exists but is not good
20:26 <FIQ> jonadab: true
20:26 <jonadab> ais523: Also, I've had trouble finding browsers Twitch will work in.
20:26 <ais523> if the video is at all important, then I strongly advise using the post-to-YouTube feature that Twitch has
20:27 <ais523> because they're less likely to screw it up
20:27 <FIQ> MTF: ^ perhaps do this, also for your other non-NetHack videos?
20:27 <FIQ> don't really know how twitch does stuff, I don't stream myself
20:27 <ais523> (also, Twitch only makes bandwidth-friendly versions of videos if the streamer is particularly popular, whereas YouTube always does; this makes it very hard for me to watch most Twitch streams)
20:27 <MTF> There, done with the highlights. Here's part 1 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/180819400) and part 2 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/180819593)
20:28 <MTF> ok lemme catch up
20:28 <MTF> FIQ: yea the bugs weren't bad at all this run! and your fixes were great
20:28 <FIQ> ais523: hmm weird, I can choose to watch MTF's stuff in 160p
20:28 <FIQ> which I'd say would be rather bandwidth-friendly
20:28 <ais523> it might potentially have changed recently, or for archived videos, or something
20:29 <MTF> I think they've been expanding the platform
20:29 <FIQ> which is what I was doing on my end because I'm not at home atm
20:29 <FIQ> which is a bit weird
20:29 <MTF> I should use the post-to-youtube feature
20:29 <FIQ> I basically have a VNC session set up to my desktop
20:29 <FIQ> turboVNC works really well and is *efficient*
20:29 <MTF> maybe I could get some views and make my channel into something
20:29 <FIQ> but has no sound
20:30 <FIQ> so what I ended up doing was to open MTF's stream on my home desktop with 720p
20:30 <FIQ> and then also open it on this desktop which is rather slow cpu-wise, on 160p
20:30 <FIQ> for the sound
20:30 <MTF> loll really
20:30 <MTF> sounds like a hell of a setup =P
20:30 <FIQ> MTF: yeah, turboVNC streams things far better than browsers do for some reason
20:31 <FIQ> it's odd, I feel basically like I'm sitting at my home desktop when using VNC, it's that smooth
20:31 <FIQ> no lag, or other oddities at al
20:31 <FIQ> l
20:32 <MTF> weird
20:33 <MTF> I mean, I know twitch is kinda crappy performancewise
20:33 <FIQ> I basically use this computer as a dumb terminal :P
20:34 <MTF> makes sense though
20:34 <MTF> still kinda funny that you got sound playing seperately from the video xD
20:35 <FIQ> yeah, that's what happens if you use a protocol with no sound :P
20:36 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought
20:36 <MTF> I'm thinking about splitting up the vids for youtube... it seems like kind of a pain
20:37 <Beholder> [fh] Jaize (psilynt) (Rog Hum Fem Cha), 31513 points, T:4750, quit
20:37 <MTF> there's not exactly good breakpoints in the VOD due to it being a stream
20:38 <FIQ> I think sgdq just splits it up "randomly" with no "proper" beginning or end, not sure though
20:39 <FIQ> for their full videos not targeted towards single games
20:39 <rikersan> fiq: does fiqhack pet/monster AI spell AI not choose things that monsters are resistant to?
20:39 <rikersan> >_> my tulani has now blasted the blue dragon with lightning 3 times
20:39 <FIQ> rikersan: pet AI doesn't
20:39 <rikersan> hm ok
20:39 <FIQ> monster AI does it, but it's rarer
20:40 <FIQ> it's on my TODO to give them proper memory
20:40 <ais523> FIQ: the unsplit VOD is split whenever they have to split for technical reasons, that's it
20:41 <ais523> things like the stream computer crashing, reaching the maximum length of a video, etc.
20:41 <FIQ> ais523: mhm
20:42 <FIQ> MTF: you take occasional pauses
20:42 <FIQ> those would make somewhat decent breakup points, no?
20:42 -!- tacco has quit []
20:44 <FIQ> rikersan: note that currently in the stable version of FIQHack, breath weapons still use the "old" GruntHack targeting AI which doesn't raybounce or care about resistances
20:45 <rikersan> ah cool
20:45 <aosdict> YANI: building on the idea of "fire terrain" a few people have mentioned, let the player create it easily by adding a tinderbox item, which is a mundane charged tool. Archeologists and Rangers start with one. You can apply corpses to adjacent fire terrain to cook them, which will extend their time until rotting for a couple hundred turns.
20:46 <FIQ> ADOM has tinderboxes
20:46 <FIQ> I basically never use them ever
20:46 <aosdict> what do they do in ADOM?
20:46 <FIQ> cook stuff
20:46 <FIQ> better satiation, lasts longer before rotting
20:46 <FIQ> *cooks
20:47 <aosdict> I imagine that early game nethack characters might enjoy that though
20:47 <aosdict> especially with a nerf to food quantity
20:47 <ais523> hyperrogue also has fire, it's terrain with the property that (unless fire-resistant) you can't move into it, and if it's created under you you must move out of it that turn
20:47 <ais523> which kind of fits its very simple "you die in one hit, game over if you have no legal moves" loss condition
20:48 <FIQ> so it's like chess
20:48 <MTF> FIQ: tinderboxes don't cook stuff lol
20:48 <ais523> in NetHack, the equivalent would presumably do damage
20:48 <FIQ> MTF: oh?
20:48 <FIQ> see how much I use them :P
20:48 <MTF> no, they're used to light torches
20:48 <FIQ> I clearly don't even know what they do
20:48 <MTF> required for light source
20:48 <FIQ> ohhh right
20:48 <rikersan> request: don't make things capable of warping in treasure zoos
20:48 <FIQ> that's what they do
20:48 <MTF> outside of ammy of light
20:48 <aosdict> ais523: the current state of ideas is that they give off some light and provide cold resistance when adjacent
20:48 <rikersan> particulary the one in the wizard's tower
20:48 <aosdict> and yes, if you happen to stand on it you will take fire damage
20:48 <FIQ> ...and considering I basically never use torches except for like, the druid guy whose name I forgot
20:49 <FIQ> yeah
20:49 <MTF> hehe
20:49 <FIQ> keethrax
20:49 <FIQ> is what he was called
20:49 <rikersan> mtf: btw, you ascended right?
20:49 <MTF> theyr'e not very useful tbh, but you might wish you had one when you get to andor and you don't have any ammy of light...
20:49 <rikersan> I missed the beholder msg
20:50 <FIQ> heh
20:50 <MTF> rikersan: I did! about 15m ago =D
20:50 <rikersan> :D
20:50 <rikersan> congrats!
20:50 <MTF> thanks ^^ I think knights are my new favorite role
20:50 <aosdict> we assume the nethack hero carries at least flint and steel already, since he/she has no problem lighting candles and oil lamps, and potions of oil.
20:50 <FIQ> rikersan: I enjoyed following MTF's stream, it was fun
20:50 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
20:50 <FIQ> especially with the commentary
20:51 <FIQ> it's enlightening to see how others think and play
20:51 <MTF> that's why I want to stream more nethack
20:51 <MTF> there's not a lot of good nethack VODS out there with commentary
20:51 <FIQ> which isn't remotely like how I play lol
20:51 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought
20:51 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ
20:51 <FIQ> "oh I'm burdened? who cares, I'll be fine"
20:51 <MTF> It's always nice to see how other people play and what actions they take
20:51 <FIQ> vs "oh shit I'm burdened, have to drop stuff asap"
20:51 <ais523> sometimes I commentate on IRC
20:52 <MTF> haha
20:52 <MTF> sometimes the risk is worth it =P
20:52 <rikersan> mtf: did you stream on twitch or similar?
20:53 <FIQ> rikersan: part 1 is https://www.twitch.tv/videos/180819400 and part 2 is https://www.twitch.tv/videos/180819593
20:53 <rikersan> ooh cool
20:53 <rikersan> I'll watch it later
20:53 <FIQ> he streamed the entire game in 2 sittings so the vods is pretty long heh
20:54 <ais523> also, I think a) NetHack players tend to overestimate the penalty for being burdened, but b) NetHack players also tend to underestimate the advantage of actually having all that stuff
20:54 <MTF> eh
20:54 <MTF> I come from ADOM
20:54 <MTF> where being burdened is laughable
20:54 <FIQ> MTF: btw, I think you're clearly a better player than me :P
20:54 <MTF> I learned very quickly how intense the burdened penalty is in nethack
20:54 <FIQ> you went like
20:54 <FIQ> "ok we will start this knight and we will ascend it"
20:54 <FIQ> and not a single death
20:54 <FIQ> :P
20:54 <FIQ> my games is generally
20:55 <FIQ> "ok I kill a bunch of characters until I get one going"
20:55 <MTF> hahah well, I don't think that makes me that good =P I'm just determined. You do crazy conducts and stuff
20:55 <FIQ> haha not really
20:55 <FIQ> I have 2 paci wins, mostly because I actually enjoy paci
20:55 <FIQ> but the vast majority of my games are non-conduct
20:55 <FIQ> (except for the ones I "accidentally" keep)
20:55 <MTF> hehe
20:56 <ais523> hmm, I want to have a go at ascending primarily at Stressed, some time
20:56 <FIQ> MTF: your samurai was similar
20:56 <ais523> that sounds like the sort of thing I'd do
20:56 <FIQ> you died once
20:56 <MTF> well thanks ^^ I'm definitely learning the ropes, want to try some challenge runs sometime... maybe once I ascend all the roles
20:56 <ais523> although knowing me I'd use useless items for the weight
20:56 <FIQ> then you got to Gehennom
20:56 <MTF> heh, true
20:56 <ais523> how much weight is 200 individually named rocks?
20:57 <FIQ> 2000
20:57 <MTF> but then I do something like die in astral on my last char =P
20:57 <FIQ> one weights 10
20:57 <MTF> ais523: that sounds incredibly painful
20:57 <Beholder> [slex] rikerw (Abu Ang Mal Cha) averted death, on T:3041
20:57 <rikersan> I don't know how though
20:57 <rikersan> no amulet or anything
20:57 <rikersan> I just didn't die
20:57 <FIQ> maybe some slex feature
20:57 <FIQ> I mean
20:57 <FIQ> it's slex
20:57 <MTF> xD
20:58 <Beholder> [fh] Orange (sk1j) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 49548 points, T:3194, killed by a knight called "Emberelle"
20:58 <rikersan> is that a specific unique?
20:58 <ais523> FIQ: what's the typical max carry cap? 2500?
20:58 <rikersan> mtf: hey this is the same game where I am lugging a 2700 weight iron ball
20:58 <rikersan> I think that's like 6x punished
20:58 <FIQ> ais523: 1000
20:58 <ais523> right
20:59 <ais523> so 2000 would stress you by itself and you'd have 500 spare for your actual items
20:59 <FIQ> 3000 is where you get overtaxed
20:59 <MTF> rikersan: lolll jesus
20:59 <rikersan> and there are 8 porn succubuses
20:59 <MTF> do you just not like items?
20:59 <rikersan> yep the "porn" part is there
20:59 <FIQ> 1500 burdened, 2000 stressed, 2500 strained, 3000 overtaxed
20:59 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20:59 <FIQ> 3001+ is overloaded
20:59 <ais523> there's a YAAP somewhere where someone played under permapunished conduct
20:59 <MTF> what happens at 3001
20:59 <FIQ> same as overtaxed but you can't get that far by picking stuff up, needs polymorph or carrycap decrease
21:00 <MTF> canyou splat
21:00 <ais523> but if the conduct was accidentally broken (which happened quite a lot), the game could continue but the ball got heavier each time
21:00 <FIQ> MTF: no crushing in NetHack
21:00 <ais523> I don't know where they got all the ?oP from
21:00 <ais523> I think they were at Strained by the end, though
21:00 <MTF> RFE strength of the ancients
21:00 <FIQ> ais523: haha I remember reading that post
21:00 <FIQ> was fun
21:00 <FIQ> MTF: RFE is called YANI in NetHack circles FYI
21:01 <FIQ> (for others: RFE is basically ADOM's YANI)
21:01 <MTF> you guys and your yet another's
21:01 <FIQ> haha
21:01 <ais523> Yet Another "Yet Another" acronym
21:01 <Tangles> YAYAA!
21:01 <MTF> YAYAa?
21:01 <FIQ> YAYA
21:01 <ais523> hmm, did yacc start that meme? or merely participate in it?
21:02 <FIQ> yacc isn't a c compiler though
21:02 <ais523> according to Wikipedia, it started it
21:02 <FIQ> even though it's tempting to say yet another c compiler
21:02 <ais523> and "yet another compiler compiler"
21:02 <FIQ> ahh
21:02 -!- MTF has quit [Quit: *poof*]
21:03 <ais523> cc does normally mean "C compiler", but not in this context
21:03 -!- MTF has joined #hardfought
21:03 <ais523> when you're UNIX and use only one or two letters for everything, you tend to have clashes
21:03 <FIQ> MTF: strength of the ancients?
21:03 <FIQ> btw
21:03 <FIQ> one thing I've considered
21:03 <ais523> e.g. not every program whose name ends with "d" is actually a daemon
21:03 <FIQ> is to make you have an infinite carrycap if polymorphed into a nymph
21:03 <FIQ> (which nymphs have as monsters)
21:04 <ais523> FIQ: there's got to be some way to break that, surely? however, it might not necessarily be a bad thing
21:04 <MTF> FIQ: *cough* Strength of Atlas *cough*
21:04 <FIQ> ais523: a nymph's HP is awful
21:04 <ais523> things that are hard to set up and don't break the game to the point of trivialising ascension are allowed to be somewhat broken IMO
21:04 <FIQ> so you'd need a bunch of preparement
21:04 <FIQ> so it might be easier to just ascend
21:04 <FIQ> rather than break it
21:04 <FIQ> ais523: like ADOM's archmages :)
21:04 <MTF> ^
21:04 <MTF> that said
21:05 <MTF> what's the point
21:05 <MTF> whos' going to go to the length
21:05 <FIQ> to become an archmage? hey, that's awesome
21:05 <FIQ> I want to do it
21:05 <FIQ> at some point
21:05 <MTF> not that =P
21:05 <ais523> hmm, I'm reminded of the Scroll of Icarian Flight, now (which comes from Morrowind, IIRC?)
21:05 <ais523> it makes you capable of flying; unfortunately, it doesn't make you capable of landing
21:05 <MTF> nymph's having infinite carry cap
21:05 <FIQ> heh
21:05 <ais523> it was meant to be a joke item
21:05 <FIQ> MTF: monster/player symmetry, and let some player have fun messing with it
21:06 <FIQ> if they find a way to
21:06 <ais523> however, the way it was implemented meant that you could use two of them to get pretty much anywhere in the game
21:06 <MTF> well yea, I guess
21:06 <MTF> seems weird to me that nymphs have infinite carry cap anyway tho
21:06 <ais523> (because it did in fact allow you to land, just the effect typically ran out before you did, so all you needed to do was refresh it)
21:06 <FIQ> MTF: potions of wonder can be pretty broken if farmed
21:06 <aosdict> RFE? Am I going to have to add another grep term to what I search these logs for?
21:06 <FIQ> request for enhancement
21:06 -!- jonadab has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
21:06 <MTF> no no
21:06 <FIQ> aosdict: and don't worry, it has only been used once
21:06 <MTF> request for *feature* enhancement
21:07 <MTF> =P
21:07 <ais523> it's hard enough for me to find all the variants on "evil variant"
21:07 <FIQ> doesn't enhancement imply feature :P
21:07 * aosdict doesn't trust FIQ and greps anyway
21:07 <MTF> tell that to biskup
21:07 <FIQ> aosdict: ?
21:07 <FIQ> MTF: tested and fixed
21:07 <ais523> FIQ: you might want to make your bugs better :-P
21:07 <MTF> xD
21:07 <MTF> I think every commit you make should say tested and fixed at the end
21:08 <FIQ> MTF: lol
21:08 -!- jonadab has joined #hardfought
21:08 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v jonadab] by ChanServ
21:08 <FIQ> ais523: I think the most HOF-worthy, and it wasn't that egregious, FIQHack has had, was monster HP regen being doubled for almost 2 years
21:08 <FIQ> +bug
21:08 * jonadab scratches qupzilla off the list of browsers to try to view those Twitch videos.
21:09 <FIQ> jonadab: use chromium or something
21:09 <FIQ> works fine here
21:09 <ais523> chromium works for me
21:09 <jonadab> FIQ: chromium doesn't work.
21:09 <aosdict> jonadab: it crashed your irc client too?
21:09 <FIQ> codecs?
21:09 <jonadab> Although, my chromium is rather a lot older than my qupzilla.
21:09 <jonadab> aosdict: yeah, not sure how that happened.
21:09 <jonadab> Although qupzilla, unlike chromium, was actually running on the same computer as irssi.
21:09 <MTF> FIQ: doubled regen? shameful
21:10 <MTF> actually I disagree
21:10 <MTF> the wizard teleportitis bug was worse =P
21:10 <FIQ> MTF: there's probably something worse, or several
21:10 <aosdict> I mean, if nobody noticed... keep it :P
21:10 <FIQ> but nothing that was around for nearly that long
21:10 <jonadab> Actually, hmm, I could try chromium on the (more up to date) devuan box.
21:10 <FIQ> aosdict: not symmetric :P
21:10 <jonadab> Let me try that.
21:10 <jonadab> None of the Opera versions I've tried work.
21:10 <FIQ> ais523: FIQHack monster teleportitis makes monsters teleport 1/85 of the time at endturn
21:10 <FIQ> Wizard of Yendor has teleportitis
21:10 <FIQ> And teleport control
21:11 <FIQ> And ignores noteleport
21:11 <jonadab> Seamonkey would probably do it, but I keep Javascript disabled in that because it's my main browser.
21:11 <FIQ> And monsters like to teleport to you if hostile (to replicate vanilla tengu behaviour) when teleportitis procs
21:11 <FIQ> So Wizard of Yendor was showing up early for a while in FIQHack
21:11 <FIQ> I fixed that earlier today
21:11 <MTF> so it was quite easy to accidently bump attack the wiz when he jumped out at you
21:11 <MTF> made my last knight splat =P
21:11 <aosdict> FIQ: you removed his covetous warping right?
21:11 <ais523> this is the main argument for removing Rodney's tower from Gehennom, I think
21:11 <ais523> it leads to so many bugs
21:11 <FIQ> aosdict: No
21:12 <FIQ> But that isn't related
21:12 <ais523> that said, making the "wake up from outside" approach possible doesn't seem problematic to me
21:12 <FIQ> to this bug
21:12 <MTF> ais523: I like rodney's tower... I think if you just code it correctly it's fun =P
21:12 <jonadab> I dislike the long narrow corriodors north and south of it.
21:12 <aosdict> ais523: it allows you to intentionally wake him up from outside via a drum of earthquake, right?
21:12 <jonadab> But that could be solved by adjusting the tower design.
21:12 <aosdict> jonadab: Yeah, a circular tower would reduce those.
21:12 <FIQ> aosdict: and mind flayers
21:12 <MTF> I mean, sure...
21:12 <MTF> circular tower could be cool
21:13 <jonadab> aosdict: Or just a smaller one.
21:13 <MTF> you know, like an actual towre
21:13 <FIQ> MTF: you mean towers aren't usually square? :P
21:13 <jonadab> Vlad's is circular.
21:13 <jonadab> And a lot of towers are square.
21:13 <MTF> hahah
21:13 <ais523> which variant was it that changed the mind flayer wakeup so that you didn't have to be quite so specific in where to stand?
21:13 <jonadab> European castle towers were usually square.
21:13 <FIQ> no idea, it wasn't FIQHack
21:13 <aosdict> Vlad's is square with little closets sticking out on the sides. I would not call it square.
21:13 <FIQ> ais523: also I think both require very specific standing
21:13 <aosdict> * I would not call it circular.
21:13 <FIQ> so it was probably originally a bug but left unfixed
21:13 <MTF> is there a variant where vlad isn't a complete pansy?
21:14 <aosdict> grunthack?
21:14 <FIQ> grunthack vlad is still bad
21:14 <ais523> which variant has lifebane?
21:14 <FIQ> he just happens to spawn with cursed tele
21:14 <MTF> wanna make vlad hard? give him 3x drain level attacks
21:14 <MTF> every time he would drain, he drains *3* levels
21:14 <ais523> but yes, when I said "the most dangerous thing Vlad can do is read a cursed scroll of teleportation", I didn't expect Grunt to take it as a YANI
21:14 <FIQ> MTF: I want to move him
21:14 <MTF> ... and make him drain more ..>
21:14 <FIQ> and his tower
21:14 <FIQ> to the gnomish mines
21:14 <FIQ> toe penultimate level
21:14 <MTF> oh?
21:14 <jonadab> Oh, hmm.  THat system has no audio hooked up.  Let me fix that...
21:15 <FIQ> but have a +10 difficulty modifier
21:15 <FIQ> and keep the tower dangerous
21:15 <FIQ> MTF: basically
21:15 <aosdict> EPI: the Wizard's Tower is now a separate branch that extends from the Vibrating Square level all the way up until dungeon level 1. Levelport is blocked within it.
21:15 <FIQ> a more appropriate-level place for vlad
21:15 <MTF> so IOW, he'll be more difficult without actually buffing him any?
21:15 <FIQ> and where the rewards might actually matter
21:15 <FIQ> yeah
21:15 <FIQ> exactly
21:15 <MTF> I like that
21:15 <FIQ> it's part of my dungeon overhaul proposal
21:16 <MTF> though, what happens to the luckstone at the bottom of the mines?
21:16 <jonadab> Actually, you know what?  Is there a way to just _download_ these videos?
21:16 <FIQ> MTF: vlad's tower would move to the penultimate level as a branch stairs
21:16 <jonadab> I am stone cold certain my media player could play them.
21:16 <FIQ> mines end would stay unchanged
21:16 <MTF> jonadab: I know I can... not sure about others
21:16 <ais523> the plans for the Evil Variant actually make Vlad's Tower /easier/, because part of the idea is that it has no idea about balance
21:16 <FIQ> (well it wouldn't, according to overhaul, but it's seperate)
21:17 <ais523> but I think that concept of it fell by the wayside at some point, and it just became all evil all the time
21:17 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:68673
21:17 <FIQ> MTF: for gehennom, if you wonder
21:17 <FIQ> I intend to replace the mazes with aiscav, similar to 4k
21:17 <FIQ> and try to generate demon lairs randomly
21:17 <FIQ> and the lords themselves
21:17 <MTF> epic
21:17 <FIQ> so you don't know what you're up against
21:17 <MTF> are we gonna have to fight demogorgon sometimes?
21:18 <MTF> still haven't messed with him
21:18 <FIQ> I'd probably keep the existing lords for summonfodder, but demo wouldn't have his own lair
21:18 <FIQ> only Orcus, and 3 random lords, would have lairs
21:18 <MTF> ah ok
21:18 <MTF> seems fari
21:18 <MTF> fair*
21:18 <FIQ> (Orcus lair and Orcus himself is special enough to warrant keeping in all games)
21:18 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:68681
21:19 <MTF> though I like the idea of demogorgon being guaranteed if you want to meet him... like in his own branch or something
21:19 * jonadab gives up.
21:19 <FIQ> MTF: would it be possible to make the videos downloadable?
21:19 <FIQ> I think jonadab wouldn't mind
21:19 <FIQ> but maybe it's too much work
21:19 <MTF> let me see if I can't just put them on youtube
21:19 <jonadab> That would work.
21:20 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) performed the invocation, on T:68705
21:20 <FIQ> MTF: my idea on gehennom is partially based off dnethack's way of doing things, but without having to add like 200 demon lords and lairs
21:20 <MTF> sure haha
21:21 <FIQ> (dNetHack's gehennom contains a few small circular maze levels, wiztower, then 3 lairs and 3 fakewiz levels, then asmodeus which is different from vanilla, then VS, then sanctum
21:21 <jonadab> Generating demon lairs randomly is an interesting idea.  Not sure what a demon lair generator would _look like_, though.
21:21 <FIQ> the lairs is selected from large pools of lairs + lords
21:21 <FIQ> )
21:22 <ais523> jonadab: I'm not even sure what the defining factor of a demon lair design is in vanillla
21:22 <ais523> *vanilla
21:22 <FIQ> hm
21:23 <FIQ> I wonder if nethackwiki has a list of dnethack's demon lairs
21:23 <FIQ> to give a picture of how they generally look like
21:23 <jonadab> ais523: Indeed.  I'd have to think about it.
21:23 <FIQ> but I find them asthetically pleasing and interesting in general, and the variety is nice
21:23 <FIQ> which is why I like dnethack's gehennom overhaul the most
21:23 <FIQ> from the variants I've played
21:23 <MTF> jonadab: I hooked up my twitch to my youtube channel and started the export for my two VOD's
21:25 <MTF> my channel is here
21:25 <MTF> https://www.youtube.com/user/MondayTuesdayFriday
21:25 <FIQ> hmm
21:25 <MTF> they need to upload though, might take a bit
21:25 <jonadab> Ok.
21:25 <FIQ> nethackwiki seems to have a list of demon lords, but not the lairs themselves
21:25 <FIQ> oh wel
21:25 <FIQ> l
21:25 <FIQ> MTF: oh so that's what your nickname means
21:26 <MTF> hahah yup
21:26 <MTF> was my old WoW raiding schedule
21:26 <MTF> ... I'm not very creative >.>
21:26 <FIQ> ahh
21:26 <jonadab> Heh.
21:26 <FIQ> haha
21:26 <FIQ> well I didn't make my own nickname :P
21:26 <FIQ> internet friends did, back in 2007
21:26 <MTF> well they did you well
21:27 <MTF> your name is unique, decent, and doesn't get people PM'ing you about transgender issues
21:27 <MTF> >.>
21:27 <FIQ> Heh
21:27 <aosdict> I was going to say
21:27 -!- aosdict is now known as AOS
21:27 <MTF> the number of PM's I get from reddit's /r/mtf thinking I'm one of the mods... ugh
21:27 <FIQ> MTF: also not truly unique, there's the occasional case I've seen others with this nick
21:27 <AOS> because we need more 3-letter capital nicknames
21:27 <FIQ> but it very rarely happens nowdays
21:27 <MTF> lol
21:28 <FIQ> maybe because I never shut down my irc connection :P
21:28 <jonadab> I'm not sure there's any such thing as a three-letter acronym that doesn't mean _something_ to either the gender people or the bondage people.
21:28 <FIQ> so the other FIQs just gave up or something I guess
21:28 <FIQ> most people who consider my name's origin at all think it originates from fast interrupt
21:28 <jonadab> FIQ: Being registered with services probably also helps.
21:28 <FIQ> some ARM interrupt thingy
21:29 <FIQ> jonadab: True
21:30 -!- AOS is now known as aosdict
21:30 -!- jonadab is now known as dab
21:30 <dab> Aww, taken.
21:31 -!- dab is now known as jonadab
21:31 <aosdict> you don't strike me as the sort of guy who would want to be associated with that anyway
21:31 <jonadab> With what?
21:31 <jonadab> Do I want to know?
21:31 <Beholder> [slex] rikerw (Abu Ang Mal Cha), 96804 points, T:4363, killed by a monster (superruby)
21:32 <jonadab> "I'm not sure there's any such thing as a three-letter acronym that doesn't mean _something_ to either the gender people or the bondage people." <-- /me tries not to imagine the details.
21:32 <MTF> dabbing
21:32 <MTF> and no
21:32 <jonadab> Where I come from "dab" means "small amount"
21:32 <ais523> "dab"/"DAB" has way too many meanings; the first that came to mind to me was "digital audio broadcast", a radio standard
21:32 <MTF> FIQ: I thought your name had something to do with that little bug at first
21:32 <FIQ> little bug?
21:32 <FIQ> oh, my avatar?
21:32 <FIQ> :P
21:32 <MTF> your discord PFP
21:32 <MTF> yea hehe
21:33 <aosdict> I use "dab" to mean "small amount" only in cooking contexts.
21:33 <FIQ> it is based off this
21:33 <FIQ> one sec
21:33 <FIQ> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Computer_bug.svg/2000px-Computer_bug.svg.png
21:33 <FIQ> and no jonadab
21:33 <FIQ> I don't have image editing skills
21:33 <FIQ> a friend did that for me
21:33 <aosdict> of course, "jon" is taken.
21:34 <FIQ> aosdict: no surprise there
21:34 <FIQ> common name after all
21:35 <FIQ> MTF: FIQ is from Fredrik (my name) + ComvIQ (Swedish phone operator -- I IRCed from my phone a lot in 2007)
21:35 <FIQ> also the IQ from me being wooshed a lot from injokes, so it was a jab at me being a slow person :P
21:35 <FIQ> it was merged into FredrIQ
21:36 <FIQ> which eventually became FIQ
21:36 <FIQ> (this is also why my altnick is FredrIQ if FIQ is taken or otherwise unavailable)
21:36 <FIQ> which is what my github handle is (IIRC FIQ is too short on github)
21:37 <aosdict> and whenever I need to go to your github and enter the address manually, I always inevitably try to go to github.com/FrederIQ first.
21:37 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:68869
21:38 <FIQ> aosdict: heh
21:39 <FIQ> oh, apparently fiq is allowed
21:39 <FIQ> but taken
21:39 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed the high priest of Moloch, on T:68916
21:40 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:68917
21:40 <FIQ> and he almost haven't even used it :(
21:40 <MTF> FIQ: ahhh that's hilarious
21:40 <MTF> pretty clever
21:40 <MTF> also the bug is amusing
21:40 <MTF> xD'
21:40 <FIQ> I want that github handle :P
21:41 <MTF> would be sweet
21:41 <MTF> I don't remember what my github account name is
21:41 <jonadab> FIQ: I wonder of Moloch is taken.
21:41 <MTF> should check
21:41 <MTF> ofc it is =P
21:41 <FIQ> same thing on reddit except even worse, https://www.reddit.com/user/fiq
21:41 <FIQ> completely unused lol
21:42 <ais523> now I'm reminded of the whole "single letter group" thing on Wikipedia
21:42 <ais523> which is a big argument for minimum username lengths
21:42 <aosdict> at least Moloch has some code. Marduk doesn't have anything.
21:42 <jonadab> Looks like evilpatch isn't taken.
21:43 <ais523> that'd be a good account for hosting, say, the code for making /bin/false return true
21:43 <FIQ> ais523: I personally consider a minlength of 2 fair game
21:43 <jonadab> ais523: Heh.
21:43 <FIQ> haha
21:43 <ais523> (making /bin/true return false is easy; the opposite is much, much harder and might even be an exploitable security bug)
21:43 <aosdict> TeamAnt is free, if anyone needs it for something.
21:44 <jonadab> Something Java related, perhaps.
21:44 <FIQ> ais523: ilbelkyr has a bot on freenode with the nick 'i'
21:44 <aosdict> maybe we should tell gurr
21:45 <ais523> FIQ: I thought freenode didn't allow 1-char nicks
21:45 <FIQ> not sure if it's registered though
21:45 <ais523> maybe it does though?
21:45 <FIQ> it does
21:45 <FIQ> clearly
21:45 -!- aosdict is now known as \
21:45 <\> what's up
21:45 <ais523> I use Ant at my day job, but hadn't made the connection to team a
21:45 -!- \ is now known as aosdict
21:45 <FIQ> ais523: do you kill a lot of newbies
21:46 <FIQ> MTF: obtw, the reason you was unable to lookup giant ant earlier
21:46 <FIQ> is because it is internally mon ID #0 (because apparently starting something like that with 0 is a good idea)
21:46 <FIQ> and my code assumed it started at 1
21:47 <ais523> FIQ: this has actually avoided a crash on a few occasions
21:47 <ais523> where the game defaulted to monster 0 and discovered it actually existed
21:47 <ais523> that's possibly beneficial for vanilla, but not for NH4
21:47 <ais523> actually, vanilla has a customizable starting monster ID
21:47 <ais523> (#define LOW_PM)
21:47 <ais523> but it's 0 by default
21:47 <FIQ> doesn't NH4 also?
21:47 <FIQ> makedefs IIRC is mostly unchanged
21:47 <ais523> and the customization was broken for ages, that's something that got fixed in 3.6.1
21:48 <ais523> (my reaction on seeing that was "why on earth is this a feature")
21:48 <FIQ> hahaha
21:48 <ais523> I can understand compiler flags that change gameplay, if not agree with them
21:48 <ais523> but whether the monster IDs start at 0 or 1? why not make a decision and stick to it
21:48 <aosdict> ancient compilers?
21:48 <FIQ> maybe there was an internal idsagreement
21:48 <FIQ> *disagreement
21:49 <FIQ> and they did that to shut everyone up
21:49 <FIQ> aosdict: I pushed a PRR for 3.6 earlier today. I don't think vanilla DT is going to care, but you might
21:49 <FIQ> *PR
21:49 <Grassy> jumping over water no longer works in Nethack dev
21:49 <FIQ> it messes with findit
21:49 <Grassy> bug
21:49 <FIQ> Grassy: sounds liek a bug
21:49 <Jendic> gl on the run!
21:50 <FIQ> aosdict: https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/pull/62
21:50 <FIQ> this
21:50 <Grassy> yeah I've encountered it before, sux if you don't have everything greased
21:50 <ais523> has this been reported? I don't remember seeing ar eport
21:50 <aosdict> why do I specifically care about MKoT behavior
21:51 <FIQ> because you have a bunch of NH3 stuff
21:51 <FIQ> Grassy: hmm did you report it
21:51 <Grassy> I'd better report it then
21:51 <FIQ> otherwise I guess I can write one
21:51 <Grassy> FIQ, not sure if I did so assume not
21:51 <FIQ> after testing it
21:51 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought
21:52 <FIQ> Grassy: actually I guess it's better if you do it since you know the detaisl
21:52 <FIQ> *details
21:53 <Grassy> FIQ, np
21:53 <FIQ> ais523: huh, apparently patr didn't know about the sustain ability thing
21:53 <FIQ> I thought it was common knowledge at this point, even nethackwiki details it
21:53 <FIQ> This was news to me.  I've just checked in a fix.
21:53 <FIQ> It should propagate to the public repositories in four hours.
21:53 <FIQ> Thanks.
21:54 <ais523> FIQ: you don't need to quote replies from the devteam to me any more :-)
21:54 <FIQ> true :P
21:54 <ais523> unless someone messed up the cc: on the reply
21:54 <aosdict> so clearly, the devteam, excepting its new members, does not use the wiki
21:55 <FIQ> it would appear so
21:55 <FIQ> I know paxed does, I guess that's how he got my cleaver thing
21:55 <FIQ> from fiqhack changelogs
21:55 <ais523> bear in mind, that when development stalled out pre-leak
21:55 <MTF> FIQ: lol that ant error is hilarious man
21:55 <FIQ> which I update religiously on the wiki
21:55 <ais523> the wiki would have completely sucked and was a complete joke
21:55 <MTF> nethack code is so wonky
21:55 <ais523> it wasn't until tjr turned up that it started getting back in shape
21:56 <ais523> or possibly in shape, I'm not sure if it was ever good before then
21:56 <aosdict> Tjr actually showed up briefly a couple of months ago in #nethack
21:56 <FIQ> tjr sounds familiar
21:57 <FIQ> didn't he make a 3.6 commit recently
21:57 <FIQ> oh no
21:57 <FIQ> o
21:57 <FIQ> I'm thinking of mjnh
21:57 <FIQ> whoever that is
21:58 <MTF> how does one get on the mysterious dev team
21:58 <MTF> do you have to sign a blood pact
21:58 <FIQ> ais523: interestingly, that commit didn't warrant a dat/history entry. How does NH3 devteam do with that?
21:58 <MTF> is there some kind of ritual involved?
21:58 <MTF> an... invocation, maybe?
21:59 <ais523> FIQ: I have no idea, it might be bulk updates
21:59 <aosdict> MTF: you at least have to have developed a major variant or run a major server for years
21:59 <aosdict> but that is only the first part of initiation
21:59 <FIQ> MTF: you have to find the real life version of the candelabrum, bell and book
21:59 <ais523> it may be that none of us have any idea, which could explain why it sometimes gets out of date
21:59 <MTF> well that seems fair
21:59 <FIQ> I think the bell is gotten by hosting a server for a while
22:00 <FIQ> the book is presumably making a variant? it involves writing a lot
22:00 <aosdict> hmm wonder if K2 has the bell
22:00 <FIQ> not sure on how you get the candelabrum
22:00 <ais523> MTF: the way it actually works is a lot of trying to figure out whether the devteam wants new members, wants that new member, the new member wants to join
22:00 <MTF> xD
22:00 <ais523> I don't think anything formal happens/happened until it's already a done deal
22:00 <ais523> FIQ: what about the candles?
22:00 <ais523> or will an unlit candelabrum do?
22:00 <MTF> makes sense
22:01 <FIQ> ais523: hmm, probably needs candles
22:01 <aosdict> FIQ: you get the candelabrum by making patches and contributions directly against vanilla and submitting them?
22:01 <FIQ> so maybe it involes the public in some way, acting as candles
22:01 <FIQ> be a major contributor towards the public? helping and whatnot
22:01 <FIQ> maybe
22:01 <FIQ> who knows
22:01 <FIQ> ais523 probably does
22:01 <FIQ> he did the ritual
22:01 <FIQ> but I bet he can't tell
22:01 <ais523> this is sounding like an actual plausible thing at this point
22:02 <Grassy> FIQ, jumping bug reported
22:02 <aosdict> and descended the stairs into the DevTeam's Sanctum
22:02 <FIQ> Grassy: cool, did you collect hte bug ID and  stuff?
22:02 <FIQ> so it can be added to 3.6.0 bugs
22:03 <aosdict> aw crap
22:03 <aosdict> I reported a bug the other day
22:03 <aosdict> wrote down the number
22:03 <Grassy> FIQ, I just reported it on Github under "issues", didn't get a bug ID from that. Didn't see anything more obvious for bugs
22:03 <aosdict> but forgot what it was
22:04 <Grassy> #64?
22:04 -!- Grassy is now known as Grasshopper
22:05 <aosdict> that's not an official bug report, and unfortunately probably only paxed will read it.
22:05 <ais523> Grasshopper: I can't find your report in the bug tracker and didn't get it by email
22:05 <ais523> the bug reporting form is http://nethack.org/common/contact.html
22:05 <Grasshopper> prev I've reported bugs through nethack.org but doing it like that seems clumsy
22:06 <FIQ> ais523: he made a github issue
22:06 -!- Jendic has quit [Quit: *poof*]
22:06 <FIQ> Grasshopper: I don't think anyone but paxed follows github issues
22:06 <ais523> well that's not going to work
22:06 <FIQ> not sure
22:06 <Grasshopper> FIQ, ok
22:06 <Grasshopper> I'll do it through nethack.org again then
22:06 <jonadab> Grasshopper: Bear in mind the github repo is just a mirror.
22:06 <ais523> the github stuff is just a mirror, the github collaboration features don't connect to us
22:06 <jonadab> The Dev Team is oldschool, they use SF.
22:07 <FIQ> I just write topic, name, mail, 3.6 git, Linux x64 desktoop, commit hash of whatever I have on hand and message
22:07 <Grasshopper> eeep
22:07 <FIQ> I don't particularly care on the accuracy but it seems to work
22:08 <FIQ> Grasshopper: oh and
22:08 <FIQ> if you want to keep the report
22:08 <FIQ> whatever you do
22:08 <FIQ> don't close the page or back or similar
22:08 <FIQ> you are not going to get a 2nd chance at seein the details
22:08 <FIQ> this is why I dislike using the nh form
22:08 <FIQ> no way to see previous reports
22:09 <FIQ> and apparently even mentioning this to DT causes it to get spam filtered :P
22:09 <aosdict> oh yeah, and paxed said the preferred way to submit a patch was to commit it somewhere on github and then email the DT with a link to the commit
22:09 <FIQ> really???????
22:09 <jonadab> FIQ: Twitch stream yourself reporting the bug, then publish to YouTube :)
22:09 <aosdict> but barthouse seems to be doing fine with pull requests?
22:09 <FIQ> oops
22:10 <FIQ> didn't mean to spam ?
22:10 <FIQ> aosdict: paxed seems to follow github stuff
22:10 <FIQ> he commented on my cleaver PR through IRC
22:10 <aosdict> I mean, I guess emailing it lets everyone else see it
22:10 <FIQ> without me having an additional nh.org ticket
22:10 <FIQ> and paxed is the one merging bart's stuff generally it seems
22:10 <aosdict> but not letting anyone on *github*, which is arguably a more active community, see it
22:11 <Grasshopper> Done and done on nethack.org and github
22:11 <ais523> FIQ: it wasn't the content of the email that caused the spam filtration, though, probably
22:11 <ais523> we're still looking into what caused that
22:11 <FIQ> ais523: oh I doubt it
22:12 <FIQ> was just a jab at your archaic system
22:12 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought
22:12 <FIQ> :P
22:12 <ais523> although, one big problem here is that we have know way to know who sent the bug report; you could put any old email address in there
22:12 <ais523> which means that there are potential problems like, say, people using the bug report form to store backups
22:12 <ais523> or communicate
22:12 <FIQ> you know
22:12 <FIQ> there is a solution
22:13 <FIQ> mae it all public
22:13 <aosdict> FIQ: oh yeah, I actually have a pull request sitting open on github
22:13 <FIQ> aosdict: maybe send a nh ticket then
22:13 <FIQ> if paxed says that is the way
22:13 <aosdict> from May, nobody's touched it
22:14 <FIQ> aosdict: very few PRs has been merged
22:14 <FIQ> I think only bart's stuff? and it's windowport work
22:14 <FIQ> and the occasional trivial commit
22:14 <FIQ> like a typo or similar
22:15 <ais523> FIQ: several things sent using the bug report form clearly shouldn't be public
22:15 <FIQ> ais523: hmm ok
22:15 <FIQ> ais523: I can't think of a way other than adding some kind of auth
22:16 <aosdict> like what? not sure what's in there that's sensitive, besides email address
22:16 <ais523> the correct fix to that is probably asking the submitter if they're happy for it to be public
22:16 <ais523> aosdict: things that aren't bug reports
22:16 <ais523> but rather other sorts of requests
22:17 <FIQ> how do I set up 3.6 on a VAX
22:17 <ais523> that shouldn't be too hard, should it? it's just UNIX
22:17 <FIQ> was just giving an example of non-report
22:17 <aosdict> in that case, it should probably be split into a bug report form, which is public, and a generic contact form
22:18 <ais523> aosdict: yes
22:19 <aosdict> and the site should make it clear which is which
22:19 <ais523> however, there are only something like three-four active devteam members, and one is spending all their devteam-related time on the bug tracker/contact/website mechanics themselves, leaving no time for the game
22:19 <FIQ> paxed and patr
22:19 <FIQ> are the ones with regular commits
22:19 <ais523> yes
22:19 <ais523> keni on the mechanics stuff
22:20 <FIQ> bhaak: do you have a single nethack commit? :)
22:20 <ais523> the fourth is everything everyone else does put together
22:20 -!- greqrg has quit [Quit: Disconnected]
22:20 <FIQ> ais523: ah
22:20 <aosdict> you for community involvement? :)
22:21 <ais523> aosdict: I'm a decent proportion of that fourth
22:21 <FIQ> well ais523 does have a couple of commits
22:21 <ais523> community / communication, and some technical feedback on things
22:21 <ais523> and a few commits
22:21 <FIQ> like making elbereth sane
22:21 <FIQ> and speed system overhaul
22:21 <Grasshopper> Rodney had better watch out - I Matt, my pet trapper, is lv48 now
22:21 <Grasshopper> err delete the "I"
22:22 <NeroOneTrueKing> " Matt"?
22:22 <FIQ> walked right into that one :P
22:23 <Grasshopper> NeroOneTrueKing, trappers usually lie flat on the floor and "trap" their victims as they walk over the "floor"
22:23 <Grasshopper> thus "Matt"
22:23 <aosdict> his name is "I Matt" because he always refers to himself in the third person like that. he's so full of himself.
22:24 <ais523> so the monsters are walking right into that one too?
22:24 <Grasshopper> oh, Matt is becoming sentient thus "I Matt"
22:24 <NeroOneTrueKing> I think, therefore I eat wizards named Rodney!
22:24 <FIQ> what even is a trapper
22:24 <FIQ> like, originally
22:25 <Grasshopper> just like I said above, origins from D&D
22:25 <FIQ> then why do they have a digestion attack
22:25 <FIQ> if all they do is trap foes
22:25 <Grasshopper> it will lie flat on the floor, sometimes with a mimic-treasure in the middle of the room
22:25 <aosdict> well in the 19th century, it meant someone who goes out in the woods and lays traps and then goes back to collect the animals
22:25 <aosdict> I suppose some people still do that
22:25 <Grasshopper> yes
22:26 <Grasshopper> they do it right here, where I am in Thailand
22:26 <Grasshopper> I've even done it
22:26 <aosdict> it's too bad about nethack's trap game, that you can't really do anything interesting with setting traps.
22:26 <aosdict> You would expect Rangers to be able to do it a lot.
22:26 <Grasshopper> and rogues
22:28 <aosdict> I guess the only time it's worth it to lay a trap is when 1) you expect a monster to step onto a specific square, 2) you care enough about trapping this specific monster that you're willing to take some turns to do it, 3) you have time to do it.
22:28 <Beholder> [un] William (Pri Hum Mal Cha), 545 points, T:1238, killed by a werejackal
22:28 <aosdict> And those are so rare that it's not worth the weight of carrying traps around.
22:29 <FIQ> pits is one of the best ways to trap foes
22:29 <FIQ> but why would you ever do that
22:29 <aosdict> YANI: make beartraps much lighter, and start Rangers out with a couple of them.
22:30 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor, on T:69611
22:30 <Grasshopper> That was Matt, not me!
22:30 <FIQ> we all sa it
22:30 <Grasshopper> urr, "I Matt"
22:30 <FIQ> don't lie
22:30 <FIQ> *saw
22:30 <aosdict> did you actually rename him I Matt?
22:31 <FIQ> haha
22:31 <aosdict> I, Matt
22:33 <Grasshopper> renamed!
22:33 <aosdict> \o/
22:34 <Grasshopper> "I, Matt, The Vlad and Rodney Slayer"
22:36 <ais523> -NickServ- imatt is not registered.
22:37 <Grasshopper> apple have probably got copyright for "iMatt" already
22:38 <aosdict> Hmm, who ended up getting the iRobot trademark?
22:38 <Grasshopper> some fellow named Isaac?
22:43 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:70089
22:43 <aosdict> let me guess, that wasn't you either
22:44 <bug_sniper> !whereis
22:44 <Beholder> bug_sniper: NeroOneTrueKing [dnh] Grasshopper [nd] 
22:44 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought
22:44 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ
22:44 <Grassy> oh, that one was me (c corpse)
22:44 <bug_sniper> on the plane of watter I see
22:44 <bug_sniper> lotg Grassy 
22:45 <bug_sniper> !lotg Grassy 
22:45 <Beholder> May the Luck of the Grasshopper be with you always, Grassy!
22:45 <Grassy> Medusa!
22:45 <Grassy> sorry, Jubilex!
22:45 <Grassy> thanks bug_sniper!
22:45 <aosdict> are you hallucinating again?
22:45 <Grassy> I just restarted, connection dropped
22:48 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
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23:04 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:70912
23:04 <Grassy> that was me too - I, Matt was too busy eating
23:06 <K2> heh
23:09 <Grassy> yay finally out of Gehennom
23:09 <Grassy> I had serious mysterious force issues
23:10 <bug_sniper> EPI: make bones files stay, both the original and the new one, if someone dies on it
23:11 <aosdict> what, so multiply them?
23:13 <NeroOneTrueKing> doesn't something like that already happen? I've found multiple player-bones on the same floor
23:13 <aosdict> YANI: wielding a mirror grants you partial reflection: you will reflect stuff 40-50% of the time.
23:13 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:71331
23:14 <aosdict> YANI: except if you're wielding a mirror and a force bolt hits you, it will shatter.
23:35 <MTF> doh, uploading of my run to youtube failed b/c I"m not verified
23:35 <MTF> fixing that...
23:35 <bug_sniper> yes aosdict, multiply them so that people have twice the chance to see summoned demons someone got killed by after sacrificing humans
23:39 <aosdict> FIQ: oh I remembered my bug report, it was that you get blasted when trying to eat an artifact *before* you get "You cannot eat that!" which seems like it shouldn't happen
23:39 <aosdict> I have the bug number if you want that.
23:40 <aosdict> Didn't save the fields or name though.
23:43 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:71725