00:00 <ais523> (in the overhaul I'm not worrying too much about the present code for things like monster generation and AI as it can be changed if necessary)
00:03 <ais523> <aosdict>  Wait, Endgame can break conducts? ← the idea is to make them physically impossible to break because if the player attempts to break them, we either have to count that as a break (problematic as it's not meant to be able to screw up your win here) or count it as not a break (problematic because it encourages you to change the playstyle you've used all game)
00:04 <ais523> so preventing the attempt is the only remaining option
00:04 <ais523> anyway, it's been interesting to read the response
00:04 <ais523> there are a few fundamental philosophical differences between you and me, I think
00:05 <ais523> maybe that's something that's worth discussing separately
00:06 <ais523> <aosdict> Though, in this case, you still haven't acknowleged the gods, so where do you end up if you overcome all these final obstacles and enter the portal? Do you still ascend? ← you just go through the portal and win, we don't find out what happens next
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03:05 <Beholder> [nd] Raisse (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) became literate by engraving "Elbereth", on T:3636
03:06 <Beholder> [nd] Raisse (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3680
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04:22 <Beholder> [nd] Raisse (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1669
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05:35 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed Orcus, on T:62185
05:38 <Grasshopper> "You now detect it where the vampire bat was." Hmmmmmmmm
06:02 <Beholder> [nd] elagabalus (Pri Hum Fem Neu), 255830 points, T:25941, killed by invisible Nalzok
06:05 <nht> !gt Nalzok
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06:28 <jonadab> aosdict: Yes.
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07:36 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed Baalzebub, on T:63508
08:35 <aosdict> !tell ais523 I'm always up for a discussion of design philosophy
08:35 <Beholder> Will do, aosdict!
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11:05 <FIQ> jonadab: so I'm working on porting dynahack's monster lookup thingy
11:05 <FIQ> but is it a good idea?
11:05 <aosdict> jonadab: so you mention liking the NH4 encyclopedia system since it provides useful descriptions and not just random quotes, but couldn't it easily provide both, similar to the "acid blob" entry in the vanilla encyclopedia?
11:06 <aosdict> maybe NH4 does this already and I'm not aware of it?
11:06 <FIQ> I am referring to this http://home.fiq.se/monlookup.png
11:06 <FIQ> The 2nd part there already exist since previously
11:07 <FIQ> The 1st part is the thing I am porting from dyna
11:07 <aosdict> FIQ: you mean the stats and resistances part?
11:07 <FIQ> (It's not finished, i.e. it lacks info on flags and attacks)
11:07 <FIQ> aosdict: yes
11:08 <aosdict> hmm. Not sure I'd want to reveal all of that to an unspoiled player (the fact that magic resistance and corpse-conveyed resistance are a thing)
11:08 <FIQ> aosdict: DynaHack does this, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not
11:10 <aosdict> Difficulty is fine. Speed is fine, it can be observed easily enough. AC can be found via stethoscope, so probably fine. Locations of appearance might give away some things, but probably nothing terribly important since there aren't very super specific monsters.
11:12 <aosdict> Resistances... not sure I'd want to give the player a laundry list of a) which resistances exist in the game and b) what that monster is not weak against
11:12 <FIQ> One alternative I am considering is to have a "monster memory" that builds up over time across saves as players discover things
11:13 <jonadab> aosdict: I specifically dislike the random quotes.
11:13 <FIQ> jonadab: ^ what do you think?
11:14 <jonadab> They A) aren't relevant, B) are often misleading if you take them at face value, and C) are probably fair use but it's not worth the risk of getting a lawyer's attention.
11:14 <jonadab> And D) add absolutely nothing to the game.
11:15 <jonadab> FIQ: Is the excerpt at the bottom from data.base and the rest is automatic from monst.c ?
11:15 <FIQ> Yes
11:16 <jonadab> I think I like it.  What's the UI for getting it?  Same as current Encyclopedia?
11:16 <FIQ> you can get it by pressing : instead of . when farlooking like how you get quotes at the moment
11:16 <jonadab> Oh, one caveat:  I agree with ais523 that monmr needs to be called something besides "magic resitance", because confusion.
11:17 <jonadab> aosdict: I'm ok with giving Wiki/spoiler information in-game. 
11:17 <jonadab> I don't think making the player look things up on the wiki adds any value.
11:18 <FIQ> jonadab: how informative should conveyances be
11:18 <jonadab> I'm not _adamant_ about the _need_ for all such info to be given in-game, like players of other roguelikes who hate NetHack for even _having_ a wiki.
11:18 <jonadab> FIQ: I'd just list the possibilities, probably wouldn't bother with probabilities?
11:18 <FIQ> "Corpse conveys foo, bar, baz resistances" or "Corpse conveys foo [24%], bar [24%], baz [24%] resistances"?
11:18 <FIQ> jonadab: ok
11:19 <aosdict> Hmm, I suppose the Guidebook does say some corpses give you special powers when you eat them, so that's not a spoiler.
11:19 <jonadab> I'd probably word it "may convey", though.
11:19 <jonadab> aosdict: Again, I'm ok spoiling anything you can look up on the wiki.
11:20 <jonadab> To me, it's not an information leak unless you need to know the RNG state or other unexposed information like that to deduce it.
11:24 <aosdict> jonadab: to what you said about the quotations: A) they're there for flavor and may hint at special behavior, B) doesn't matter if it's always prefixed by an accurate non-quote description, C) if lawyers haven't been a problem for the last 30 years they probably won't be now, and D) see A.
11:26 <FIQ> jonadab: suggestion for a better term than magic resistance?
11:26 <jonadab> FIQ: Hmm.  Let me think about that.
11:27 <jonadab> aosdict: Any "hint at special behavior" notion you have about the quotations just proves my point about them being actively misleading.
11:27 <jonadab> They are WAY more likely to hint you in a wrong direction than in a right one.
11:27 <jonadab> And their flavor is usually wrong for NetHack as well.
11:32 <jonadab> FIQ: "warding"?  "aegis"?  "mastery"?  Not sure, maybe we should raise this question separately and get feedback from several people.
11:32 <aosdict> "magic cancellation"? :P
11:32 <jonadab> pls no
11:32 <FIQ> magic cancellation fits just as well as magic resistance
11:33 <FIQ> but is *also* already used
11:33 <jonadab> "magical buffer"?
11:33 <FIQ> it's basically a savign throw
11:33 <FIQ> *saving
11:33 <aosdict> magic protected?
11:33 <jonadab> FIQ: "saving throw"?
11:33 <NeroOneTrueKing> willpower?
11:33 <jonadab> Oooh, I kind of like that one.
11:33 <aosdict> (that would require changing the enlightenment message to "magic-resistant" but that's fine.)
11:34 <FIQ> wait, how is enlightenment relevant?
11:34 <FIQ> it doesn't say anything about monMR
11:34 <aosdict> FIQ: it currently says "magic-protected" for player MR
11:34 <FIQ> oh
11:34 <FIQ> hm
11:34 <FIQ> I think FIQHack has changed this already
11:34 <aosdict> so if you made it the thing here, you should change it
11:35 <FIQ> to be consistent with what the community calls it
11:35 <FIQ> apparently I didn't
11:35 <FIQ> I should
11:35 <FIQ> jonadab: like what? magic protected or willpower?
11:35 <aosdict> Willpower doesn't make sense in all contexts, like elemental attacks or force bolts.
11:36 <jonadab> FIQ: willpower
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11:36 <jonadab> aosdict: Nothing's going to make sense in all contexts, because it does so many different things.
11:36 <jonadab> That's the one way in which it _is_ the same as player MR.
11:36 <jonadab> Or MC for that matter.
11:37 <aosdict> well, it's a rough measure of a monster's chance to reduce or nullify incoming magical effects
11:37 <aosdict> ^ that I think makes sense in all contexts, but is too long, of course
11:39 * jonadab can imagine the spoiler if we had about six of these properties like this.  "To be fully protected against all the weird things the game can throw at you, you need magic protection, magic resistance, magic cancellation, magic buffer, magic defense, and escape magic, plus all the elemental resistances, good AC, and life saving."
11:40 <jonadab> [Insert two-page table summarizing which of the above protect you from each kind of weird thing that can happen.]
11:41 <jonadab> aosdict: "magic nullification"?
11:41 <jonadab> The NetHack codebase also uses the term "magic negation" as a synonym for MC.
11:41 <aosdict> That's not too descriptive though...
11:41 <jonadab> Indeed.
11:42 <jonadab> Also, not everything it defends against is magical.
11:43 <FIQ> jonadab: have you seen the MC table?
11:43 <FIQ> it's pretty much like you describe
11:43 <FIQ> due to how inconsistently it works
11:44 <FIQ> and 3.6 made it even more complicated
11:44 <NeroOneTrueKing> From the wiki:
11:44 <FIQ> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Magic_cancellation#What_magic_cancellation_protects_against
11:44 <NeroOneTrueKing> In earlier versions of the game, the idea was that some types of armor covered your entire body surface, so the attacker effectively could not touch you despite his successful attack. Over time, with the addition of the cornuthaum and many types of special attacks, this point has become moot, and the current explanation can only be "it's magic". 
11:44 <NeroOneTrueKing> lol
11:45 <aosdict> hence why all the cloaks used to be MC3
11:45 <rikersan> finally a fountain wish :D
11:45 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) wished for "blessed figurine of a tulani eladrin", on T:289
11:45 <rikersan> now he can wind for me :D
11:45 <FIQ> You have a bad feeling about this.
11:45 <rikersan> nope, tame :D
11:50 <K2> two bags in a shop, both are bag of tricks
11:51 <K2> heh
11:54 <Beholder> [4k] Moo (sk1j) (Hea Gno Fem Neu), 2436 points, T:1072, killed by a cave spider
11:56 <Beholder> [sp] k2 (Pri Hum Mal Law), 1002 points, T:1674, killed by a werejackal
12:17 <rikersan> k2: why do you always pick human priest?
12:17 <K2> because most others dont
12:18 <raisse> I play human priestesses
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12:18 <raisse> either neutral or lawful
12:19 <rikersan> how often do you ascend those?
12:19 <K2> i tend to go back and forth on those two alignments for priest. depends on what kind of artifacts I am aiming to wish for
12:19 <rikersan> I've seen k2 splat a bunch of sp priests
12:19 <rikersan> so I'm curious how hard sp/priests are
12:19 <K2> i splat a lot in general ;)
12:20 <rikersan> I've never gone far with anything except dnh hedrow priests
12:20 <raisse> me too, and I don't play spork
12:20 <rikersan> and those are stupidly op
12:20 <raisse> I ascend more priests than archeologists but fewer than wizards.
12:20 <raisse> my ascension rate is abysmal but that's because I use r-strategy for early characters
12:21 <raisse> every once in a while one floats on top and then I start making an effort
12:21 <rikersan> lol
12:22 <jonadab> rikersan: Priest is a moderately difficult role.  Clearly harder than Valkyrie, Samurai, Ranger; but clearly easier than things like Arc and Hea.
12:22 <rikersan> I've never liked samurai
12:22 <raisse> ranger isn't difficult?
12:22 <raisse> I can't get the hang of it
12:22 <rikersan> and ranger is eh for me
12:22 <rikersan> ^
12:22 <rikersan> I run out of ammo too quickly
12:22 <jonadab> raisse: Ranger is one of the easier roles, once you learn that you A) can and B) should use ranged attacks at point-blank range.
12:23 <jonadab> If you have not-enough arrows, you supplement with daggers.
12:23 <raisse> and untrap all the traps
12:23 <jonadab> Yes.
12:23 <jonadab> And _eventually_ you get the Longbow.
12:23 <raisse> and go into the first level of the quest as soon as you get there, never mind your level, and get all the arrows from the centaurs
12:24 <rikersan> isn't that known as the worst designed home level?
12:24 <jonadab> Yes, although, the Ranger quest can be scary if you don't have reflection.  High tendency to have attack wands.
12:24 <rikersan> for the maze and attack wands
12:24 <raisse> (that's what I did with my only fairly successful ranger, died at the castle for lack of MR, I think)
12:24 <rikersan> hm
12:24 <rikersan> I might try another
12:24 <rikersan> when my bard splats or ascends
12:24 <jonadab> rikersan: Yes, but the way it's designed isn't _dangerous_ to the player character, just annoying.
12:24 <raisse> I think I had an amulet of reflection
12:24 <raisse> from soo
12:25 <rikersan> jonadab: hm ok
12:25 <raisse> +k
12:25 <rikersan> I never do soko
12:25 <rikersan> I just can't get it
12:25 <rikersan> I follow the tutorials but i always screw up
12:25 <rikersan> and then have to tele boulders
12:25 <jonadab> At this point I think I have all eight of the vanilla Sokoban levels in muscle memory.
12:25 <rikersan> I've done it maybe 3 times in the last couple months, 2/3 by abusing a binder spirit and 1/3 with lots of teleportation of boulders
12:26 <jonadab> Now, Binder, there is a role I couldn't get the hang of.
12:26 <rikersan> though to be fair I mostly play barbarians, and they're high strength and get MR and reflection from teh QA
12:26 <rikersan> jonadab: startscum for enki, buer
12:26 <rikersan> enki allows you to utilize the short swords you get off kobolds
12:26 <jonadab> I don't startscum.
12:26 <jonadab> I try to ascend every game.
12:27 <jonadab> Unless I'm doing something like Most Unique Deaths for a tournament.
12:27 <rikersan> then get your pet to damage things and try to get the kill on it
12:27 <rikersan> to get levels
12:27 <aosdict> rikersan: I happen to be working on a proposal for quest level redesign. Haven't got to Ranger yet, but don't worry, that level will be killed with extreme prejudice.
12:27 <rikersan> _kill it with fire_
12:27 <jonadab> aosdict: Have you seen Khor's version of it?
12:27 <rikersan> what's his?
12:27 <rikersan> and does khor do a lot of maps? iirc he did the orc mine's end
12:28 <aosdict> I know Khor said he had a lot of good ideas but I haven't seen a repository of them anywhere
12:28 <jonadab> He's done several.  I think four of them are in Fourk.
12:28 <jonadab> Orctown, Peanut Island, Ranger Quest Home, and the "Khortown" that I adapted as a Garden of Temptation variant.
12:29 <rikersan> peanut island?
12:29 <aosdict> something to do with zoos?
12:29 <jonadab> Peanut Island is a BigRoom variant.
12:29 <rikersan> and what's the garden of temptation?
12:29 <rikersan> ah 
12:29 <rikersan> I really like his mine's end (I think the .des credits him), if he made that
12:29 <jonadab> Garden of Temptation is a Gehennom special level that features nymphs, foocubi, ...
12:29 <rikersan> the one with a balrog fig
12:29 <jonadab> Yes, that's his.
12:29 <rikersan> cool
12:30 <aosdict> jonadab: so where could I find these maps, other than digging through fourk des files?
12:30 <rikersan> it would be better if it was guarenteed non-cursed
12:30 <rikersan> or maybe deathdropped by something
12:30 <jonadab> Here's his ranger quest home: https://github.com/tsadok/nhfourk/blob/master/libnethack/dat/Ranger.des#L11
12:30 <rikersan> because I've had to run from a randomly formed balrog
12:30 <rikersan> >_>
12:30 <rikersan> ooh, that's nice looking
12:31 <jonadab> aosdict: Dunno.
12:31 <aosdict> still more 1-wide segments than I'd prefer but eh
12:31 <jonadab> aosdict: Most of them were pastebinned when he made them.
12:31 <jonadab> aosdict: Yes, but compare it to the original one.
12:32 <jonadab> Peanut Island is here:  https://github.com/tsadok/nhfourk/blob/master/libnethack/dat/bigroom.des#L524
12:33 <rikersan> jonadab: did you make fourk?
12:33 <rikersan> oh I've seen that
12:33 <jonadab> Khortown:  https://github.com/tsadok/nhfourk/blob/master/libnethack/dat/garden.des#L265
12:33 <jonadab> rikersan: Yes.
12:33 <aosdict> Ah, so a peanut-shaped island.
12:34 <rikersan> dnh has it as a sunless sea variant
12:34 <jonadab> rikersan: Ah, that would also be reasonable; but Fourk doesn't have Sunless Sea (it's a Slash'EM special level originally).\
12:34 <rikersan> ya
12:34 <rikersan> it's got a drawbridge instead of the door (2-wide drawbridge) and the magic lamp is in a chest inside the "ship"
12:35 <jonadab> I assume I don't need to link to the Orc Temple Mine's End, as you've likely already seen that.
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12:36 <rikersan> yep and I love it
12:36 <rikersan> it's got a better reward
12:36 <rikersan> plus, when branchporting, it will take you to there
12:36 <rikersan> and you can use the altars if you convert them
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12:38 <aosdict> YANI: allow the des parser to interpret < and > on the MAP as specific STAIR commands.
12:38 <rikersan> yes
12:38 <rikersan> would make reading them so much easier
12:39 <aosdict> Ideally I want to get maps as close to pasteable into a wiki replacecharsblock as possible.
12:39 <jonadab> Yeah, I kind of want to be able to put boulders in as 0 as well.
12:40 <jonadab> And traps as ^ with the caveat that if there's not a TRAP listing that tile, it's an error at compile time.
12:40 <jonadab> (Because you've gotta specify what kind of trap.)
12:40 <aosdict> That's a good approach.
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12:41 <aosdict> Does it already ignore + characters, or do you have to specify a corresponding DOOR?
12:41 <jonadab> Currently, if you forget the DOOR you just don't get a door.  I'd rather see that be an error too, yes.
12:41 <aosdict> Of course, the _main_ thing I want to do with des files is provide the ability to give monsters weapons.
12:41 <aosdict> Directly, not just spawning them on the same square and hoping they pick them up.
12:41 <aosdict> s/weapons/items
12:42 <jonadab> The _main_ thing I want to do with des files is be able to use a character (probably ? but I am flexible) to say "this part isn't specified by the MAP, even though it's within the rectangle; fill it in with filler content same as around the edges."
12:42 <aosdict> that might do weird things with filler algorithms though
12:43 <aosdict> currently they only work across an entire level
12:43 <jonadab> I'd also like to be able to specify items by appearance (e.g., "smoky potion", with a flag for whether, if that appearance isn't used in the current game, to turn it into random or omit the item).
12:43 <jonadab> aosdict: Currently, you can already sort of kind of do this, but you have to use multiple MAP segments and piece them together.
12:44 <jonadab> Which is ugly and horrible and bad for maintainability.
12:44 <jonadab> If I didn't want to take Asmodeus' Lair and kill it with fire, my second choice for what to do with it would be to make the whole thing one MAP, with fill-in areas on the top right and lower right corners.
12:45 <jonadab> So the MAP can be all one piece, like it's shown on the wiki.
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12:47 <jonadab> Oh, also, another VERY important thing I want to do with .des files is give each level the ability to specify its size (not just of the map, but of the whole level), so that special levels like the Castle, that depend on the player NOT being able to go around the edge, can still be used even if ROWNO and COLNO are larger than the traditional values.
12:47 <aosdict> Oh, so not so much "full level map with 10x10 square of filler" so much as "small irregular special area embedded in filler"
12:47 <jonadab> aosdict: Yes, approximately.
12:48 <jonadab> Oh, I also want to allow randomness within the map, as in, these six tiles here are either floor or lava, at random; and this other set of nine tiles over here, independently, are either floor or lava, at random, etc.
12:48 <jonadab> (I have a level in Fourk that was designed around the idea that would be possible; currently, it's hardcoded and not nearly as interesting.)
12:48 <aosdict> 3.6.0 lets you do that with a specified probability with REPLACE_TERRAIN
12:48 <aosdict> for rectangular areas at least
12:48 <jonadab> Yeah, I want non-rectangular areas.
12:49 <jonadab> Actually, backing up, the single _main_ most important thing I want to do with .des files is have the code that reads them not be written in yacc.
12:49 <jonadab> Because I want to be able to make improvements.
12:49 <jonadab> And I feel like learning C is enough of a challenge without adding YACC to it.
12:51 <aosdict> My reasons for wanting to do that are the same as FIQ: I want to be able to modify levels without recompiling.
12:51 <jonadab> Ah, I don't care about that particularly; but if it gets rid of the YACC and gives me a level file parser I can work with...
12:52 <jonadab> yacc can go die in a fire.
12:52 <NeroOneTrueKing> unrelated, but does anyone know off the top of their head of a function call that says if a monster has line-of-sight / can see another monster?
12:52 <aosdict> Downside of that is that you don't get the direct benefits of using a parsing library. Upside is that you no longer depend on or need to code for said parsing library.
12:52 <jonadab> NeroOneTrueKing: Yes in NH4, not sure if the same in NH3.
12:53 <jonadab> NeroOneTrueKing: mcansee and mcouldsee, IIRC?
12:54 <jonadab> Hmm, seems I misremember those function names.
12:54 <NeroOneTrueKing> NH4, looks like. In dnethack it looks like mcansee means that the monster isn't blinded
12:54 <jonadab> Hang on.
12:56 <jonadab> Oh, it was msensem
12:56 <jonadab> Yeah, msensem()
12:56 <NeroOneTrueKing> Alas, thanks.
12:57 <Beholder> [nd] Raisse (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) had Magicbane bestowed upon her by Thoth, on T:2551
12:57 <aosdict> jonadab: I kind of want to tackle that as my next project but *I* don't really know much about yacc or lex
12:58 <rikersan> jonadab: C isn't that hard
12:58 <rikersan> it's pretty simple once you get the hang of it
12:59 <jonadab> rikersan: I'm getting there.
12:59 <jonadab> But it's still way more of a pain to work in than Perl.
12:59 <jonadab> aosdict: I don't think knowing lex and yacc would actually help that much if the goal is to replace them.
13:00 <Beholder> [nd] Raisse (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) became literate by reading a book, on T:3615
13:00 <aosdict> Not just to replace them, but to replace them in such a way that their full functionality and cross-compatibility on all platforms is maintained.
13:01 <aosdict> Yeah, it would probably be easier if I were only worrying about Linux.
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13:12 <aosdict> haha, creating two different quest nemeses in wizard mode lets you get two Bells of Opening
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13:22 <NeroOneTrueKing> if you polyself into a unique demon (some code modifications required), all the demons you gate in will be the same unique demon
13:26 <rikersan> that sounds like a bug
13:27 <rikersan> doesn't slex have a polymorphitis race like that?
13:27 <rikersan> that only does uniques or smth
13:31 <NeroOneTrueKing> kindof buggy
13:31 <NeroOneTrueKing> it just makes more demons of the kind you are
13:32 <NeroOneTrueKing> to avoid you gating in a demon lord or something when you're polymorphed into a regular demon
13:32 <aosdict> why not just have a special case for you gating vs enemies gating
13:33 <aosdict> also yani: there should be a message for enemy gating
13:34 <FIQ> http://home.fiq.se/monlookup.png
13:36 <aosdict> FIQ: I bet that would be really useful in slex
13:37 <rikersan> aosdict: that would be really nice
13:39 <FIQ> aosdict: slex has a "pokedex"
13:39 <FIQ> it does basically the same thing
13:39 <rikersan> it's autogenerated from flags though
13:39 <FIQ> except the way slex outputs it confuses the curses UI a lot
13:39 <aosdict> From my perspective of "I like changes that could go smoothly into vanilla NetHack", I think the devteam would not want this, but jonadab's point that basic monster info should not really be spoilers stands
13:39 <FIQ> because apparently real popups was too hard
13:40 <aosdict> I guess my hangup is that it reveals certain systems to the player that normally they would have to figure out themselves.
13:40 <aosdict> FIQ: can you do one for floating eye?
13:41 <FIQ> http://home.fiq.se/floating_eye.png
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13:41 <NeroOneTrueKing> FIQ: it wasn't that hard to move into real popups
13:42 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: the slex thing? sure
13:42 <FIQ> you implement it for slex ;)
13:42 <FIQ> I'm sure it's easy
13:42 <FIQ> just amy never bothered
13:42 <aosdict> oh right, it doesn't paralyze in fiqhack
13:42 <FIQ> because she doesn't care about curses UI at all
13:42 <NeroOneTrueKing> lol, there was even code for it but it was commented out
13:42 <FIQ> why?
13:42 <NeroOneTrueKing> because the spacing and newlines didn't work
13:42 <FIQ> lol
13:43 <NeroOneTrueKing> the "figure out how many spaces are needed to pretend to be a newline" stuff, to be precise, didn't work.
13:43 <FIQ> I'm not entirely sure how it's done atm, but from curses UI's POV it's basically a huge pline
13:43 <FIQ> and looks ridiculous
13:44 <aosdict> "Beware, the Monastery of the Earth-Lord is surrounded by a great graveyard."
13:44 <aosdict> um
13:44 <aosdict> no it isn't
13:44 <FIQ> huh?
13:44 <aosdict> this is monk quest text
13:44 <FIQ> lol
13:45 <aosdict> it appears to have been copied from the priest quest text
13:45 <aosdict> as well as the design of the home level
13:45 <FIQ> that's the sort of thing I would expect from slex
13:45 <FIQ> not vanilla
13:45 <aosdict> and the design of the locate level is copied from some other quest
13:45 <FIQ> well it originated in SLASH'EM
13:46 <FIQ> I guess vanilla never bothered doing propoer QA of it
13:48 <aosdict> FIQ: do a side-by-side comparison of monk quest text and priest quest text
13:48 <aosdict> like 80% of the messages are the same
13:48 -!- Tarmunora__ is now known as Tarmunora
13:50 <aosdict> the lair is the exact same too
13:52 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a fiqhack update that adds monster lookup
13:52 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
13:52 <K2> mmmmk
13:52 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-10-07 13:52 EDT: pushed a fiqhack update that adds monster lookup
13:53 <FIQ> wait
13:53 <FIQ> I broke it
13:53 <K2> FIQhack updated
13:55 <FIQ> pushed a fix
13:57 <K2> FIQhack updated
13:58 <FIQ> K2: sorry for the hassle
13:58 <FIQ> I feel bad about this sometimes, keeping nagging you :p
13:59 <rikersan> did you make your macro k2? 
13:59 <K2> heh no
13:59 <K2> FIQ: you dont have to apologize, i told you it's not a hassle
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14:00 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1085
14:03 <rikersan> I think izchak died :(
14:13 <LarienTelrunya> Beholder: automatic messages upon people joining the chat please :D
14:13 <Beholder> LarienTelrunya: Message from aosdict at 2017-10-06 19:46 EDT: You must make dissolved undead potatoes wearable as shoes, jonadab and I demand it
14:13 <LarienTelrunya> lol
14:14 <LarienTelrunya> well, if you can tame one, you can ride it; that's gotta be close enough
14:16 <rikersan> no
14:16 <rikersan> not enough
14:16 <rikersan> larien: _sigh_ that's what I get for copy pasting
14:16 <rikersan> it works for slex too though
14:16 <rikersan> context: github
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14:16 <LarienTelrunya> ah, I see
14:16 <LarienTelrunya> also you seem to have played some while I was gone; did you enjoy aggravate monster's "Several monsters come out of a portal" feature?
14:17 <rikersan> NO
14:17 <rikersan> not at all
14:17 <rikersan> would not recommend
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14:18 <rikersan> wait, is that from getting agg mon trinsic?
14:18 <rikersan> huh
14:18 <LarienTelrunya> heh, bugsniper managed to take a mahou shoujo all the way to Orcustown
14:18 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
14:20 <LarienTelrunya> and I was just about to add "yeah, aggravate monster does that in slex, and mahou shoujo start with it"
14:20 <LarienTelrunya> rikersan: come back :)
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14:21 <Beholder> [nd] Raisse (Wiz Gno Fem Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a werejackal, on T:5074
14:22 <jonadab> aosdict: Platform compatibility really shouldn't be a problem for parsing .des files.
14:23 <jonadab> If anything, lex and yacc are a *royal* pain to get working on some platforms, notably Windows.
14:23 <jonadab> I am guessing that when they did 3.4.3, they probably had to run lex and yacc on *nix and copy its output over into a tarball to send to the Windows systems for compiling.
14:24 <LarienTelrunya> jonadab: you apparently were wondering why Imelda Marcos isn't a slex deity; she's a quest nemesis :P
14:24 <jonadab> Because even these days with MinGW, getting that stuff to work is a pain.
14:25 <jonadab> FIQ: That looks pretty good.
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14:27 <jonadab> LarienTelrunya: Yeah, we figured it out.
14:28 <LarienTelrunya> 22:56 <jonadab> YASI: diagonal movement is disallowed on even turns; non-diagonal movement is disallowed on odd turns. <----- idea for an evil artifact :)
14:29 <jonadab> Actually, make diagonal movement disallowed on turns divisible by 3, non-diagonal movement disallowed on turns divisible by 7, and if you forget and try it, you get drained a level.
14:29 <FIQ> EPI: Sword of the Bishop. Very strong sword, autocurses when wielded, forces diagonal movement
14:30 <jonadab> This means on turns divisible by 21 you are not allowed to walk or be running or traveling.
14:30 <jonadab> FIQ: Heh.
14:30 <LarienTelrunya> jonadab: haha that would be ultra evil!
14:30 <LarienTelrunya> FIQ: thanks! will implement :)
14:35 <FIQ> Mandevil: why doesn't nhs store version number for dnethack and 4k?
14:35 <FIQ> they both do rather significant changes between them
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14:36 <rikersan> larien: am back, >_> accidentally shutdown computer
14:36 <rikersan> and huh I did'nt realize they started with agg
14:36 <rikersan> that's annoying
14:36 <rikersan> very much so
14:37 <LarienTelrunya> ah, welcome back; what I said was: yeah, aggravate monster does that in slex, and mahou shoujo start with it
14:37 <rikersan> fiq: only wieldable when polymorphed intoa grid bug
14:37 <rikersan> larien: ah cool
14:37 <rikersan> btw, are angels supposed to be OP? >_>
14:37 <LarienTelrunya> rikersan: play SLEX! *bundlebundlebundle* do you know about the GM mode?
14:37 <rikersan> > bundlebundlebundle
14:37 <rikersan> and no?
14:37 <rikersan> I'll play in a bit
14:37 <LarienTelrunya> angels are considered the strongest race currently
14:37 <rikersan> I'm working on homework that's like a wk overdue
14:37 <rikersan> larien: hm
14:37 <rikersan> very much so I detect
14:38 <LarienTelrunya> GM mode means that I can interfere with people's games by spawning monsters at will, activated by putting OPTIONS=gmmode in the rcfile
14:38 <rikersan> be intersting to do an angel cruel abuser and kill the quest nemesis
14:38 <rikersan> uh
14:38 <rikersan> I'll pass on that :p
14:38 <rikersan> eh, I've added that into teh rc
14:38 -!- bouquet has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 56.0/20170929100409]]
14:39 <Mandevil> FIQ: NHS does store version number for every xlogfile row.
14:39 <rikersan> larien: ^^
14:39 <LarienTelrunya> don't worry, I'll only spawn stuff that's not too terribly dangerous
14:39 <rikersan> *^^^
14:39 <rikersan> lol
14:39 <Mandevil> FIQ: I just chose to not to show them.
14:39 <FIQ> ok
14:39 <LarienTelrunya> so you'll play an angelic cruel abuser?
14:39 <Mandevil> s/to show/show/
14:39 <FIQ> well I figured it was useful
14:39 <rikersan> yep
14:39 <FIQ> that's why I asked
14:39 <rikersan> chaotic because its' cool
14:40 <rikersan> holy shit that message spam
14:40 <FIQ> LarienTelrunya: would you spawn nasty stuff if a player was on astral :P
14:40 <Mandevil> FIQ: I was trying to show all version numbers.
14:40 <rikersan> that was a good 7 messages
14:40 <Mandevil> FIQ: But then I saw what version number is for UnNetHack.
14:40 <LarienTelrunya> FIQ: in theory I could spawn some extra Death's and Rodneys on astral :D:D:D
14:40 <rikersan> no plz
14:40 <FIQ> Mandevil: what is it?
14:40 <Mandevil> FIQ: And scrapped that idea.
14:40 <Mandevil> FIQ: And only started to showing for NetHack after 3.6.0 was released.
14:40 <rikersan> does gm mode also enable wizmode? cc larien
14:40 <Mandevil> FIQ: It's something like UNNETHACK-5.2
14:40 <FIQ> ah
14:41 <rikersan> ah nvm
14:41 <FIQ> well I figured you could show them on a case-by-case basis
14:41 * LarienTelrunya opens monst.c to look for interesting monsters to spawn
14:41 <FIQ> and I suggest 4k and dnh
14:41 * rikersan opens monst.c to find what the heck that is
14:41 <FIQ> they're the actively developed variants which do major version changes
14:41 <FIQ> that is in NHS
14:42 <Mandevil> FIQ: It's easy to enable it for others.
14:47 <rikersan> > You see here a scroll labeled JONADAB SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE A VARIANT THAT IS
14:48 <rikersan> ACTUALLY GOOD {0}.--More--
14:48 <rikersan> ouch
14:48 <jonadab> rikersan: monst.c is where all the monsters are defined.  You want to avoid the slex version of it at all costs, it will crash your text editor or drive you insane.
14:48 <rikersan> I am aware
14:48 <rikersan> I decided against it
14:48 <rikersan> :p
14:54 <bhaak> LarienTelrunya is the Queen of burn.
14:54 <bhaak> there should be a list of burn centers in the game
14:55 <jonadab> Hmm, is she Swiss?  I thought she was German.
14:55 <LarienTelrunya> german; IIRC bhaak is swiss
14:55 <bhaak> yes
14:55 <rikersan> > disease kick
14:55 <jonadab> So how did a German get to be the queen of Berne?
14:55 <rikersan> _RUNS_
14:55 <rikersan> nvm have a good unihorn
14:56 * bhaak groans
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15:21 <Mandevil> Maybe SLEX should be written in this language: https://github.com/Property404/fetlang
15:22 <jonadab> Is it a variant of malbolge?
15:22 <rikersan> oh my god
15:22 <rikersan> please
15:22 <rikersan> my poor eyes
15:22 <Mandevil> jonadab: No.
15:22 <rikersan> my poor eyes did not need to see this
15:22 <rikersan> > Fetlang is not recommended for production use at this moment, especially in medical or military applications
15:22 <rikersan> I wonder wht
15:22 <Mandevil> rikersan: Your poor eyes did not need to see this and yet you play SLEX?
15:22 <LarienTelrunya> wtf, what is the Amy they're referring to? me???
15:23 <jonadab> Obviously.
15:23 <rikersan> mandevil: I recant my statement
15:23 <Mandevil> LarienTelrunya: Wait, you're not the author?
15:23 <rikersan> https://github.com/Property404/hdbf
15:23 <LarienTelrunya> nope
15:23 <rikersan> looks cool though
15:23 <rikersan> *that looks
15:37 <LarienTelrunya> FIQ: it's not that I don't bother about curses UI, it's that I really don't know how to make the pokedex render correctly in curses since I'm far from an expert with curses
15:40 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: ^
15:41 <NeroOneTrueKing> LarienTelrunya: take a look at the dnethack port I did of the pokedex.
15:41 <NeroOneTrueKing> The big thing is using '\n' to create new lines
15:42 <LarienTelrunya> uhh... what I need is a diff that I can apply :D
15:42 <NeroOneTrueKing> haha, I'll take a look again once I get some time back in my life
15:43 <NeroOneTrueKing> to actually sit down and do stuff without the dread that is "oh no what about that written report due Tuesday"
15:43 <LarienTelrunya> ugh, I know that feeling
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16:11 <FIQ> LarienTelrunya: you should add a flavour description for each monster in slex :D
16:11 <FIQ> like what jonadab did, later incorporated in fiqhack
16:11 <FIQ> the "freeform" text here, that is: http://home.fiq.se/floating_eye.png
16:12 <LarienTelrunya> for each monster? that's like 16k entries :P
16:12 <FIQ> not my problem ;)
16:12 <FIQ> also, only 16k?
16:12 <FIQ> I thought slex had like 100k monsters
16:13 <LarienTelrunya> naaaaaaah
16:13 <LarienTelrunya> anyway:
16:13 <LarienTelrunya> @le?ultimate giant kraken
16:13 <Beholder> ultimate giant kraken (;) | Lvl: 80 | Diff: 75 | Spd: 20 | Res: fire cold sleep disintegrate shock poison petrification | Confers: fire cold sleep shock poison | MR: 100 | Generates: special | AC: -20 | Attacks: 25d15 hug physical, 25d15 hug physical, 25d15 hug physical, 25d15 hug physical, 15d15 cast clerical, 15d15 breath acid | Alignment: -3 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, swims, amphibious, oviparous, poisonous, nopoly, infravisible, vegetarian
16:13 <LarienTelrunya> flavor text for that would be: This creature is the end of the world as we know it. The mere sight of such a thing means certain and instant death. RUN!!!
16:14 <LarienTelrunya> (I think it's the most damaging monster in the entire game right now, capable of dealing 1500 damage in melee per round)
16:15 <FIQ> good thing it's generally genocideable
16:15 <FIQ> @le?death
16:15 <Beholder> Death (&) | Lvl: 30 | Diff: 36 | Spd: 12 | Res: fire cold sleep shock poison petrification drain | Confers: nothing | MR: 100 | Generates: unique | AC: -5 | Attacks: 8d8 touch Death, 8d8 touch Death | Alignment: 0 | Flags: flies, regenerates, seeinvis, nopoly, stalker, infravisible
16:21 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a minor fix
16:21 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
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16:30 <jonadab> LarienTelrunya: Just have a Markov chain generator write the blurbs for all 16 billion monsters.
16:30 <jonadab> EZ
16:31 <LarienTelrunya> well, what slex has is about 2500 monsters that I generated with your script :)
16:31 <LarienTelrunya> and very theoretically there are special rooms filled with them, but they're so rare as to be a novelty
16:32 <LarienTelrunya> jonadab: also, play slex! *bundlebundlebundle* It's fun, and even has a GM mode where I can spawn monsters for you to fight! :)
16:36 <NeroOneTrueKing> Will those monsters primarily consist of troves? An abundance of scroll troves might be nice.
16:38 <LarienTelrunya> in theory I could "stuff" a player by spawning lots of troves, but I prefer spawning animated shoes and stuff
16:43 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought
16:56 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +5 tie-dye shirt of shambhala", on T:1663
16:57 <rikersan> forgot greased :/
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17:27 <FIQ> LarienTelrunya: you should make a monster that can use wands skilled ;)
17:27 <jonadab> LarienTelrunya: You should make a monster that can use wands at master even if they are cursed.
17:27 <LarienTelrunya> well, all beams have a chance to ignore reflection in slex, so...
17:28 <jonadab> But only against the player.
17:28 <LarienTelrunya> that wand of lightning always has a chance of ruining your stuff
17:28 <FIQ> I thought you said you hated the wand destruction patch
17:28 <LarienTelrunya> yeah, I still do
17:28 <LarienTelrunya> but in slex, the chances of item destruction are sane, i.e. no "one zap will always destroy fully 33% of your entire vulnerable stuff"
17:28 <FIQ> am I sensing a double standard
17:29 <jonadab> FIQ: the entire slex approach to balance is, "if this is unbalanced, make it less probable in any given case".
17:30 <jonadab> (and then introduce 9098437947 other unbalanced things that are _also_ improbable, so that the chances of ever having an actual playable game are nil.)
17:30 <LarienTelrunya> in slex, being hit by lightning means "if you get really unlucky, you might lose a wand or ring, but most of the time you won't"; in fourk, it's "well, say goodbye to every wand and ring that you were carrying, the RNG will make sure those you needed most WILL be destroyed by that 33% chance"
17:33 <Tarmunora> LarienTelrunya: Are there any monsters that deploy trap/nasty-traps?
17:34 <LarienTelrunya> There are monsters that have trap creation attacks, and also ones whose attacks directly give you nasty trap effects :D
17:34 <Tarmunora> Two steps ahead, aren't you
17:35 <Tarmunora> Is there a wand/scroll/potion of nastiness?
17:36 <LarienTelrunya> scroll of nastiness, yeah; a few monsters are guaranteed to spawn with one
17:42 <jonadab> Is there a wand of lag that monsters can zap at you?
17:43 <NeroOneTrueKing> As I recall there are boots of lag...
17:43 <jonadab> Is that as bad a pun as I think it is?
17:43 <LarienTelrunya> heh, there's no such wand, but a scroll of nastiness read by a monster can randomly decide to give you the lag effect
17:44 <jonadab> EPI: wand of capping.  If a monster zaps at you, it picks a random one of your stats, and permanently caps it at the current value, so it can never increase again.
17:45 <jonadab> Well, never increase above its current value.
17:45 <jonadab> EPI: besides attributes, the wand of capping can also cap your Hp and Pw.
17:45 <jonadab> And experience.
17:46 <LarienTelrunya> there's an anti-experience trap in slex, which makes it so that you cannot gain experience again; only gain level can still level you up in that case
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17:51 <jonadab> EPI: new type of nasty trap, makes it so input is only accepted if entered when the current second on the computer's clock is divisible by three, otherwise the input is discarded.
17:52 <LarienTelrunya> uhh, how would that be done? i.e. what is the function that checks that?
17:52 <LarienTelrunya> I know undead check the hour, for double damage at midnight
17:52 <LarienTelrunya> but does that use game start time or current time?
17:53 <jonadab> Current time.
17:53 <jonadab> The phase-of-the-moon stuff uses the time when you last loaded your save (or started the game).
17:53 <jonadab> But that's because luck is dead-reckoned.
17:53 <LarienTelrunya> ah, so an evil artifact (I'll want to make it into an artifact instead of a trap) that actually has the "has to be divisible by 3" effect would be possible :)
17:54 <LarienTelrunya> in fact, I'll want to make plenty of artifacts that are basically "even nastier version of existing nasty trap effect" when equipped
17:54 <jonadab> If it's an artifact, it must autocurse when equipped :-)
17:54 <LarienTelrunya> you bet it will
17:55 <jonadab> EPI: a monster attack that causes you to equip any cursed or autocursing items you may be carrying.
17:55 <jonadab> (wield if weapon, wear if armor or jewelry, quaff if potion, etc.)
17:55 <jonadab> Naturally, to be fully evil, this should be a non-reflectable gaze attack that works even if you are blind.
17:55 <LarienTelrunya> heh, I think I have a nasty trap on my to-do list that randomly generates negatively enchanted cursed gear, removes whatever you have in the slot that it would occupy, and forces you to wear it
17:57 <jonadab> OBTW, did you hear I am kind of sort of thinking about contemplating considering the option of eliminating MC entirely as a mechanic?
17:58 <LarienTelrunya> yes, I thought you were contemplating that before junethack already? I'm surprised you didn't actually do it yet
17:58 <jonadab> I anticipate some complaints during Junethack if I do.
17:58 <jonadab> Though my goal would be to balance all the stuff it defends against so that it's reasonable.
17:58 <LarienTelrunya> well, it's not as evil as disintegration melee attacks that disintegrate your cloak even if you're resistant :P
17:59 <jonadab> What about psychic-blast-range wide-angle disintegration attacks?
18:00 <LarienTelrunya> are you trying to make sure fourk is more evil than slex, i.e. are you actually going to implement such an attack?
18:00 <jonadab> No.  EPI: a monster that reproduces like ZapM tribbles and has a kamikaze/explode disintegration attack.
18:01 <jonadab> And if one dies by being caught in a disintegration blast from another one, its blast radius is doubled.
18:03 <LarienTelrunya> hmm, I didn't implement anything from ZAPM yet, but I'll keep it in mind if I do
18:04 <LarienTelrunya> anyway, gotta go now, but thanks for the EPIs :)
18:04 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed]
18:05 <aosdict> jonadab: the reason I think platform compatibility should be a problem is because I looked through some of the util files responsible and saw a lot of #ifdef SOME_OS macros
18:07 <jonadab> aosdict: Just because the existing level compiler is a portability pain doesn't mean a replacement one would need to be.
18:07 <jonadab> All the thing really needs to do is read the files (NetHack has to have code for opening/reading files _anyway_) and parse them, and construct the level.
18:08 <aosdict> Defining the entire grammar and parser in the actual code sounds wrong
18:09 <aosdict> Normally I'd say there should be a library for it, but even if one exists, NetJack doesn't like to include libraries if possible.
18:09 <aosdict> "NetJack"
18:09 <aosdict> ha
18:09 <jonadab> Right, my plan was to create a binary format that's better / more flexible than .lev, and create a .des parser that writes it.
18:10 <aosdict> Wait, so you still want levels to be pregenerated during compilation?
18:10 <jonadab> Permissively licensed libraries should be ok, as you can just drop them into your codebase in a subdirectory.
18:10 <jonadab> aosdict: Yes, although I don't have a problem with distributing the (new, improved) level compiler with the game.
18:11 <jonadab> Actually, a level _editor_ might even be cool.
18:11 <jonadab> That's more ambitious, though.
18:11 <aosdict> I want the game to say "need to generate this new level: look up .des, parse it, generate it".
18:11 <aosdict> On the fly, allowing for direct .des editing to be reflected.
18:12 <jonadab> The way the .des files currently are, you'd have to say "need to generate this new level:  look up all the .des files, parse them, generate all the levels they describe, then go through the list and see if any of them is the one we need."
18:12 <jonadab> If you want to change that, you have to change .des format.
18:12 <jonadab> Although it might be possible to merely _extend_ .des format, and make all the .des files have e.g. a header at the top that lists all the levels they contain.
18:13 <jonadab> That makes for "I have to edit it on two places" though.
18:13 <jonadab> Which I don't generally like.
18:14 <aosdict> You would only have to edit it at the header if you're changing the dungeon structure, but I can easily imagine throwing out the concept of multiple levels in a single .des file.
18:14 <aosdict> There's already one .lev per level anyway.
18:22 <jonadab> Right, one level per .des file, combined with requiring the .des file's name to be the level name, would solve this.
18:23 <aosdict> YANI: slope terrain, which renders as dark gray | or -. It blocks movement, but since it is not a wall it doesn't block LOS. If you manage to end up on a slope, you aren't embedded in it; you can move to an adjacent space for free. You cannot dig a slope.
18:24 <aosdict> This is prompted by me trying to think up quest level redesigns and being severely limited by a perfectly flat level type.
18:24 <aosdict> With slopes, you would be able to have pyramids and switchbacks and things like that.
18:25 <NeroOneTrueKing> and if you can fly?
18:25 <aosdict> If you can fly or levitate you can move onto the slope, and off either side.
18:25 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a minor fix
18:25 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
18:27 <aosdict> Actually, never mind it rendering as dark gray. It renders as normal.
18:28 <aosdict> Hmm, pyramids are still a bit of a problem since you don't want to be able to see the back side of the pyramid.
18:29 <NeroOneTrueKing> fully implement multiple z-levels within a single "floor"
18:30 <Tarmunora> Why though
18:58 <aosdict> Hmm, the complete lack of originality in the Monk quest is leading me to believe it should probably be massively overhauled (in this proposal)
19:00 <aosdict> anyone got any ideas for what the Monk quest narrative should be, assuming we keep the artifact and Master Kaen the same?
19:03 * NeroOneTrueKing thinks of the best way to fit the plot of Kung-fu Panda into nethack
19:06 <aosdict> The association with earth-related stuff seems to be the way vanilla has taken this, but it's still mostly a find and replace of undead in the Priest quest text
19:19 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed fixed greased +3 gray dragon scale mail", on T:9156
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20:23 <jonadab> aosdict: I haven't looked at the quest text for Monk (_most_ of the quest texts could stand an overhaul), but I think I did something about a couple of the Monk quest levels.
20:25 <jonadab> Hmm, looks like just one of them, quest locate.
20:25 <jonadab> https://github.com/tsadok/nhfourk/blob/master/libnethack/dat/Monk.des#L110
20:25 <jonadab> I think I looked at the _name_ of the level in the quest text and said, ok, let me draw that, I can't do worse than the vanilla one.
20:28 <jonadab> Honestly, we could do with a "redesign a quest" competition, as a followup to dungeon overhaul.
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20:41 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:66532
20:42 <Grasshopper> heh, it wasn't me... it was my pet trapper (lv38)
20:42 <Grasshopper> !gt Matt the trapper and Vlad Slayer
20:42 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:66545
20:46 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a fix
20:46 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
20:51 <K2> hi
20:51 <Beholder> Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought
20:51 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-10-07 16:21 EDT: pushed a minor fix
20:51 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-10-07 18:25 EDT: pushed a minor fix
20:51 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-10-07 20:46 EDT: pushed a fix
20:51 <FIQ> :P
20:51 <K2> FIQhack updated
20:58 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed the ghost of noty, the former Reconnoiterer, on T:16353
21:15 <FIQ> K2: can you give me MTF's save?
21:15 <FIQ> he's having an issue
21:15 <K2> yup
21:16 <FIQ> seems like he managed to work-around it, but it'd still be cool to have it fixed
21:17 <K2> see pm
21:17 <FIQ> ty
21:17 <K2> yw
21:18 <Beholder> [nh] William (Pri Elf Mal Cha), 1242 points, T:2609, killed by a dwarf
21:31 <FIQ> !tell K2 fixed
21:31 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
21:31 <FIQ> thanks!
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21:43 <Beholder> [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Ana Dwa Fem Cha) wished for "the blessed greased rustproof +5 Stormhelm", on T:19374
22:01 <Beholder> [un] William (Pri Elf Mal Cha), 220 points, T:838, killed by a kobold
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23:07 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed spellbook of identify", on T:20370
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23:26 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "3 blessed scrolls of charging", on T:20655
23:29 <aosdict> jonadab: I think my proposal might already be doing that as it's redesigning all the quests (levels, at least, I'm not touching leaders, nemeses, artifacts, and not really focusing on monsters or plot)
23:30 <aosdict> main problem is really just making all of the quests _feel_ different
23:30 <aosdict> because cavern-filled levels with the rock replaced with water or trees or whatever doesn't really cut it
23:40 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) wished for "blessed fixed +3 Dragonbane", on T:20775
23:44 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Clk Mal Neu) killed the Oracle, on T:6290