00:05 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 00:07 YASI: Shield of the Gorgon: Bronze roundshield that can be ^Invoked downwards to burn a Gorgoneion or sideways at a monster to attempt to petrify it and cause it to flee. 00:09 -!- Jendic has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:09 -!- Jendic has joined #hardfought 00:15 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 568 points, T:1489, killed by an electric shock 00:27 nero: isn't the one from greek myths called "aegis"? sounds like a good name 00:27 I also feel like it should grant either stoning resis or reflection while worn 00:28 or maybe immunity to gaze attacks? 00:28 like weaker reflection 00:30 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1240 00:31 does it track all named arts? 00:49 -!- Jendic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:04 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:04 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 392 points, T:1101, killed by a blast of acid 01:04 menucolors don't work anymore in vanilla nhdev? 01:06 and statushilites seems to be down too 01:07 I now get an error message complaining about "updown" in my config file 01:07 Does anyone know what is going on? 01:11 [dnh] rikerw (Hdr-Pri Dro Mal Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:3648 01:13 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 16 points, T:34, killed by a monster (jackal) 01:30 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 7581 points, T:7119, killed by a soldier ant 01:41 [dnh] rikerw (Pri Dro Mal Neu), 25928 points, T:6761, killed by an a spike 01:43 OK, I've worked out how to do menucolors in-game, but I'd be very grateful to anyone that can give me guidance about what the new rules are for setting menucolor options in the rc file 01:43 I can't find any joy on github 01:48 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:52 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 01:52 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 02:03 is jonadab here? 02:05 YASI: it exercises wisdom to play fourk with a 2160p monitor 02:09 YASI: lisp nethack you can play inside emacs 02:09 that's an idea for you loli 02:09 -!- Khor has joined #hardfought 02:09 bug_sniper: that already exists 02:10 it does? 02:12 yes 02:12 nethack-el 02:14 hmm, I guess that's how it works 02:15 YASI: an emacs-based rcfile editor, with it's own nethack-el mode built-in 02:28 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 4480 points, T:1715, killed by a cowardly attack on her breasts 02:30 I'm pretty sure that exists 02:30 and it's called emacs 02:31 Good morning lads 02:35 I was thinking recursive emacs rcfile editing 02:36 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:37 well that's simple 02:37 write a js engine in elisp 02:37 compile emacs down to js with emscripten 02:37 run emacs on top of that engine 02:42 how hard is it to run vim inside of emacs? not that most people would want to. 03:16 Grasshopper: commit 69f7a78dba7099 03:17 GOOD MORNING LADS 03:17 hi Khor 03:18 Hi FIQ. :D 03:18 Today it's my birthday. And I'm spending it in the office. Yay! \o/ 03:18 nice 03:22 -!- nht has joined #hardfought 03:26 Elronnd: I think nethack-el isn't a complete lisp implementation of NetHack, just an interface to the tty NetHack. I think. 03:27 Compare Malyon, which is a z-machine written in Emacs lisp. So you can play Zork in Emacs. 03:27 And other z-machine titles. 03:27 yeah, that's right. it's not an implementation, it's an UI port 03:28 Oh, hmm, this says it actually comes with a patch that adds a windowport to NetHack. 03:29 it needs to. none of the other windowports are designed to be a proxy for a UI frontend 03:30 Ah, right. 03:31 And Emacs isn't really a terminal as such. 03:31 I mean, command-line stuff works in an Emacs shell buffer, but stuff like less and anything curses-based tends not to do so well. 03:31 So NetHack would probably be a problem. 03:31 when is someone doing a curses implementation in emacs 03:32 eshell is a terminal 03:32 eshell is a shell 03:32 but nethack's existing with "Terminal must backspace" 03:32 s/emacs/elisp/ 03:33 FIQ: I think the hard part would be doing a real _terminal_ in Emacs, i.e., a major mode that interprets all the escape sequences and such correctly. 03:33 Emacs can _do_ all that stuff, but things running in an Emacs buffer normally accomplish it by calling lisp functions, not by throwing certain codes into the data stream. 03:34 although it runs in M-x term 03:34 but that is cheating :) 03:34 Oh, does it? 03:34 Hmm. 03:35 Oh, _interesting_. 03:35 decgraphics is messed up though 03:35 You'd expect it to be. 03:35 utf8graphics in unnethack works 03:36 Right. 03:36 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 03:36 decgraphics and ibmgraphics are designed under assumptions that are no longer valid in any reasonable or sane setup. 03:37 So is M-x term an actual _terminal_ in Emacs? 03:37 Like, written in lisp? 03:37 Looks like. 03:37 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 937 points, T:1580, killed by a large mimic 03:38 It doesn't appear to support 24-bit color terminal codes, though. 03:38 Nor 8-bit even. 03:39 Just the 16 ANSI colors. 03:42 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 03:42 ibmgraphics, yes, that's a legacy option, but why should decgraphics no longer work in any reasonable or sane setup? 03:42 jonadab: should try it in termtest :P 03:43 degraphics even works in any normal utf-8 enabled terminal 03:43 not putty 03:43 jonadab: LarienTelrunya: probably the wrong time of day for you, but: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/dungeon-redesign.txt 03:43 at least in the 7 bit variant where it's more of a side step 03:43 jonadab is stil awae 03:43 *awake 03:43 ais523: YES!!! you finished it! 03:43 * LarienTelrunya saves it to disk right away 03:43 LarienTelrunya: no spoilers pls 03:44 ah, so the new policy is "don't mention anything while FIQ is around"? 03:44 I read jonadab's proposal 03:44 but we tend to have wildly different opinions on things 03:44 well, when I read it I also thought "seriously???" at some points, but that's to be expected ;) 03:45 that aren't "obvious" (something most agree with) 03:45 ais523: I envy your ability to write in such an informative and eloquent way. 03:46 Khor: you surely can't have read it all that quickly? :-) 03:46 but technical writing was a) one of my hobbies, b) relevant at most of the jobs I've taken 03:46 LarienTelrunya: wait, what makes /you/ go "seriously???" 03:46 ais523: I would just drop the rogue level. it's not really interesting and only an interface screw 03:46 ais523: I dont have to finish it to form that opinion. I indeed havent finished it yet. 03:46 so I guess it's not allowed for me to talk about the contents of that document anywhere? or is there a channel where no "don't want to be spoiled" developers hang around? ;) 03:47 fair enough (and that's why I added the smiley) 03:47 if FIQ doesn't want to be spoiled we can create another channel or find one he isn't in 03:47 I will keep reading in breaks while I wait for this damn thing to work. x.x 03:47 although he's in all the ontopic ones I'm in 03:48 ais523: well, basically many "remove X"'s cause me to go "seriously???", but also certain other things (can't mention them here because policy :D) 03:48 the obvious place would #nethack-dev and he has to stuff carrots in his eyes and go "lalala" while we discuss it 03:48 I didn't have any particular variant in mind for this, not even vanilla 03:49 although my mental "base" for the changes was somewhere between 3.4.3 and NH4 03:49 presumably because that's what I'm familiar with 03:50 I like the zork reference idea. would be a hidden easter egg in a very quirky way 03:51 that one /has/ been mentioned openly in #nethack4 in the past, although I don't think FIQ was there at the time 03:52 FIQ: I'm actually "already" awake, not "still". 03:52 Woke up early. 03:53 Also, woot, dungeon overhaul. 03:53 LarienTelrunya: My proposal was badly out of date. Like, two years out of date. 03:54 So some parts of it are not things I would seriously promote any more. 03:54 jonadab: link to your proposal? 03:54 will you make an updated version then, hopefully with more variants of special levels? ;) 03:54 I guess I get to read it now 03:54 or maybe just implement new special levels directly in Fourk? 03:54 ais523: Have you seen my big room level? I think it would fit your description quite well. :P 03:55 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.] 03:55 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 03:55 [08:54] So some parts of it are not things I would seriously promote any more. 03:55 [08:54] jonadab: link to your proposal? 03:55 [08:54] I guess I get to read it now 03:55 I can leave #nethack-dev 03:55 ais523: Have you seen my big room level? I think it would fit your description quite well. :P 03:55 it's not like I do anything there anyway 03:55 nobody does anything there anyway 03:55 it was mostly only useful for variant devs to discuss 3.5 03:56 ais523: it is on the wiki btw 03:56 jonadab's proposal 03:56 it has a weird name 03:56 nowadays it's occasionally used for technical support for compiling vanilla 03:56 but other than that it's gall good 03:56 but not much else 03:56 *all good 03:56 it's named scratchpad or something like that 03:56 ais523: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Jonadab/Dungeon_Overhaul_Proposal_Draft_1 03:56 I'll start writing my own proposal thing 03:57 so I can read ais' 03:57 oooh 03:57 wow, the dungeon overhaul moratorium is as recent as 2014? 03:57 ^ I have read that one btw and don't care about being "spoiled" with that 03:57 I feel like it's been in place forever 03:57 I love your gnomish proposal 03:58 gnomish mines* 03:58 ais523: Well, relative to how long it was intended to last, three years is a fairly long time. 03:58 There are chatlogs for this channel 03:58 I can read it later 03:58 bye for now 03:58 -!- FIQ has left #hardfought 03:58 But I didn't spoil it! D: 03:58 so can the ais523 dungeon overhaul be discussed openly now? ;) 03:59 LarienTelrunya: FIQ left only one channel and it was a publicly logged one :-( 03:59 which seems like the wrong channel choice to me 03:59 I dont think ais liked my bigroom I guess. 03:59 I assume we can just give big spoiler warnings, though 03:59 Khor: I haven't seen your bigroom 03:59 but he doesn't have to read the logs if he doesn't want to spoil himself :) 03:59 ===================================== SPOILERS BEGIN HERE ===================================== 03:59 here, now you can discuss it 03:59 Khor: your bigroom is in slex, so there's at least one person who likes it :) 03:59 It's also in dnethack 04:00 and posibly four 04:00 k 04:00 If it's Peanut Island, it's in Fourk. 04:00 yup 04:00 Do you happen to have the file so I can show it to ais? 04:00 it fits his description of big room with few sight hindering stuff 04:00 ok, so: ais523: more special levels in the regular dungeon? do drafts of them exist in des-file format? 04:00 and if he wants to add more variance I might aswell try to sell my product. :P 04:00 jonadab: hmm, the major difference in philosophy between you and me seems to be that I decided the lategame needs to be significantly more /complex/ to be interesting 04:01 Khor: https://github.com/tsadok/nhfourk/blob/master/libnethack/dat/bigroom.des#L524 04:01 LarienTelrunya: basically everything I've written there is purely a description of what I think the levels should be like, and I haven't tried to actually create them in code 04:01 ah, okay 04:01 luminescent fungi sound cool :) 04:01 Yeah I really like all the mines proposals 04:01 * jonadab is a slow reader. 04:02 Khor: whoa how are you reading so fast? I'm just starting to read the mines section 04:02 * Khor shrugs 04:02 Khor: your bigroom is more like a fairlybigroom; the island itself fits my vision of what a bigroom should be, it's not the entire level though 04:03 if I incorporated it, it'd probably be as a rarely appearing level of its own rather than in the bigroom slot 04:03 well we can remove the boat part and make it the whole level 04:03 hmm, giving all gnomes candles means that you'll have a guaranteed light source for a rather long time 04:04 LarienTelrunya: Yes, NH4 gnome candles means you can burn two candles at once the _entire_ time you are in the Mines. 04:04 ais523: some of your proposals sound like stuff that's already in nh4 (the candles thing) or 360 (gnomes turning hostile if you attack one) 04:04 LarienTelrunya: I didn't know that was in 3.6 04:04 Nor did I. 04:04 so convergent development there, I guess 04:04 but you are a 3.6.0 dev! I thought you implemented that ;) 04:04 some of my ideas are stolen from my own variants, though, yes 04:04 LarienTelrunya: I am a 3.6./1/ dev 04:05 I have almost no input in 3.6.0 04:05 what was there was stolen from AceHack without my knowledge 04:05 ah 04:05 (although I approve of the changes that were stolen, or I wouldn't have put them in AceHack in the first place) 04:06 polymorph trap as a reward sounds like a rather big boost to those who already have a ring of poly control at that point 04:06 You'd waste a poly trap on polymorphing yourself? 04:06 not really, it'd have limited range unless you had unchanging too 04:06 it's mostly there for pet-wranglers 04:07 bear in mind that this is vanilla 04:07 It's a bigger boon for ^ yes that. 04:07 it doesn't have any utterly insane polyforms like Slash'EM does 04:07 jonadab: oh, I always base my thoughts off of slex/slashem, where monster polymorphs are (rightfully, IMHO) temporary 04:07 Ah. 04:07 the best general-purpose polyforms in vanilla are master mind flayer and vampire lord 04:07 Right, this proposal was probably not mostly written with Slash'EM in mind. 04:07 so constantly polying it until it becomes a gray dragon is not that viable 04:07 neither is exactly going to break the game 04:08 http://bhaak.net/nethack/dungeon-redesign.html 04:08 ^ if somebody wants to read a minimal mobilized html version of the text 04:08 wow, minetown temple always neutral would mean everyone would want to be neutral 04:09 Nah, early Excalibur is better than a coaligned altar. 04:10 Unless you also nerf protection from cross-aligned temples. 04:10 yeah but for roles that aren't good with excalibur, neutral would suddenly become even better than it used to be 04:11 archeologist I guess 04:11 ais523: awwwwwwwwwwww why have the cursed scrolls of teleportation in a chest on Vlad's square, instead of in Vlad's possession (EPI)? :P 04:12 LarienTelrunya: I think you answered your own question :-) 04:14 also IMHO catacombs is the best mines end, and is therefore also the one the players encounter in my fanfic about slex because hey, they get to fight guaranteed vampires! :P 04:15 I don't care about Orctown being unpopular. it makes for a better game experience even if players don't acknowledge that 04:15 what's your definition of "better game experience" here? 04:16 letting players experience obstacles that they didn't expect but can be overcome 04:16 Wait, is potion of monster detection a thing in vanilla NetHack? I had completely forgotten that potion existed. 04:16 jonadab: I think so? it's definitely a spell, at least 04:16 and I thought it was a potion too 04:16 orctown has lots of useful things but on a different tangent than normal minetown 04:16 ais523: Yes, I looked it up, it is. 04:16 I just had forgotten it. 04:16 orctown has a bunch of wands but they're empty :( 04:17 bhaak: my counterargument is a headroom argument: NetHack is tension between trying to intentionally build a character you like and trying to overcome obstacles 04:17 if Minetown, one of the key stocking-up points in the game, doesn't contain the expected resources, the first part of that is destroyed 04:17 and it's early enough in the game that you can just restart it 04:18 ais523: oh, you also have an "alternate to Sokoban" branch, like jonadab's Nabokos 04:18 random obstacles to overcome are great, but lack of expected resources isn't really 04:18 LarienTelrunya: I haven't reached that bit in jonadab's proposal yet 04:18 but it's the obvious solution, some people like Sokoban, some don't, so why not have an option for both of them? 04:18 ais523: Nabokos is not one of the better parts of my proposal, though. 04:19 I mean, the idea of a parallel branch is ok. 04:19 does that mean the policy is still "don't talk about jonadab's document while ais523 is here"? 04:19 ais523: what resources are there in minetown that players usually seek? IMO only the priest and the candles. everything else is extra and not of importance 04:19 bhaak: general store for price ID is the biggie. 04:20 Also the altar. 04:20 jonadab: orctown has an altar 04:20 Yes. 04:20 But it doesn't ever have a live shopkeeper. 04:20 Which is roughly twice as important as the altar. 04:20 remove price ID, slex did it and those who complained eventually realized that they can live without it :D 04:21 bhaak: it's a good stashing level too, and somewhere you can make multiple trips 04:21 including to buy protection in the midgame, BCU items, often sell a few extra items to buy rations… 04:22 In Fourk, by default, Minetown is 100% guaranteed to always have a live shopkeeper who will buy and sell scrolls. (Usually it's a general store; in college town, a bookstore.) 04:22 also Minetown very frequently has valuable tools 04:22 jonadab: why scrolls in particular? 04:22 The Mines in general has tools, that part's ok I think. 04:22 ais523: So you can price ID 20zm scrolls. 04:22 That's really the only thing you *have* to price ID in NetHack. 04:23 Though for some roles, price identifying books can save you a LOT of holy water. 04:23 Also, yes, with Orctown, there's no guaranteed place to buy protection until the Valley. 04:24 Note that I made Minetown one of the levels where bones aren't loaded under the default setting, in Fourk. (My proposal draft doesn't reflect this. Future versions will.) 04:25 future proposal draft when :D 04:25 LarienTelrunya: that's going to take a few weeks, minimum. 04:26 ais523: oh your sokoban is teleport-allowed and levelport-allowed? 04:26 LarienTelrunya: yes, I don't like special cases 04:27 but there are attempts to reduce how much the player can take advantage of that 04:27 ais523: Ah, we agree on guaranteed sack. I guaranteed the shield, as well. (Shield of reflection is typically regarded as the _worst_ source of reflection, but with it guaranteed, nobody has to do the Castle without reflection.) 04:27 making mines end only having spellbooks will piss off some roles 04:28 jonadab: obviously you're not a plan of the slex approach, i.e. the "nothing is guaranteed" approach :D 04:28 flavor-wise, minetown is not a gnomish settlement, so that's not a compelling reason for the altar being neutral 04:28 LarienTelrunya: slex is basically the Evil Patch incarnate. 04:29 ais523: wtf, no potions of gain level in sokoban??? that sounds much more specialcasey than the noteleport restriction... 04:29 That could be fixed by making Sokoban a down branch rather than an up branch. 04:29 LarienTelrunya: it's mostly to work as a clue for the alternative branch 04:30 Oh, wait, then hole jumping. Nevermind. 04:30 so that you don't just pick up the guaranteed c!oGL and take it with you 04:30 I don't care that much about preventing them being used inside Sokoban, rather about preventing them being taken into Sokoban 04:30 hmm, it really strikes me as weird to place so many guaranteed items; roguelikes are IMHO all about randomness, and having guaranteed items makes things much less random 04:31 just remove sokoban and drop the whole loot at the place where the upstairs would have been 04:31 bhaak: removing sokoban would seriously annoy about 5% of players. 04:31 LarienTelrunya: roguelikes are all about resource management IMO 04:32 the reason we have randomness is to create a variety of challenges for the player to face 04:32 jonadab: even if they still get the loot? 04:32 however, "not having a specific item" isn't that interesting as challenges go 04:32 bhaak: Yes. 04:33 normally when I give a guaranteed item there's an obvious use for it, and a range of less obvious uses if you don't go for the obvious use 04:34 in a way, if every game is entirely different, every game is the same, as you can't plan for total randomness 04:35 one of the subtler changes I made (and forgot to point out the reason explicitly) was to have noticeably different item distributions per branch 04:35 ais523: Rather than randomizing candle burn time, I'd just allow ones that are "close enough" to merge, averaging the remaining wax. 04:35 so that players who need something in particular have can make an educated decision about where to farm 04:36 jonadab: experience from AceHack shows that you need to be /very/ lenient with candle merging 04:36 Right. 04:36 random+quantized seemed like the best way to make that amount of lenience realistic, and it's also much more efficient 04:36 I was thinking merge 'em if they're both between half and max, or if they're both less than half, something like that. 04:37 And average the wax values when merging. 04:37 (Weighted average if merging unequal-size stacks, of course.) 04:37 I think that's fairly similar to my method in practice, and as a result don't really care which is used 04:38 Also, I don't like giving Gnomes candles, for both gameplay reasons (it creates _excessively_ large supplies of candles) and flavor (Gnomes shouldn't _need_ candles to see.) 04:38 however, it's more performance-intensive and more likely to lead to a stupid yet hilarious exploit (although I'm not sure what nature that would have, if it exists) 04:38 infravision doesn't see everything 04:38 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 04:38 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 04:38 ais523: Gnomes have dark vision in Fourk. 04:39 Lore-wise, they are _natively_ from underground. 04:39 ais523: well, YMMV but I think it's more interesting if you don't have guaranteed "you need to go to the place where item X can always be obtained, so you can complete puzzle Y" but need to solve the puzzle with whatever you randomly happen to get ;) 04:39 LIke, they don't dig down there from the surface. 04:39 LarienTelrunya: have you read my article on headroom? 04:39 In some lore, they're a type of earth elemental, in fact. 04:39 you're advocating for a low-headroom game, this doesn't fit very well into the way NetHack does things 04:39 ais523: the one on your blog? it's been a while since I read that 04:39 right 04:39 it's not necessarily a bad thing 04:39 it's just hard to reconcile with like 90% of how NetHack works at the moment 04:40 ais523: LarienTelrunya's whole approach to balance is irreconcileably different from NetHack's. 04:40 also slex is IMHO actually a rather high-headroom game, since there's so many different items and therefore plenty of ways to deal with e.g. the problem of crossing water 04:40 Among other things, she believes that if it's possible for a highly skilled player to consistently ascend game after game, that's a bug. 04:40 LarienTelrunya: headroom is about your ability to /choose/ a solution 04:40 jonadab: the DCSS devteam believe the same thing, I think 04:41 Whereas, my view is that if it's *not* possible for a sufficiently skilled player to ascend 100% of games, that's a bug. 04:41 jonadab: specifically, if there was no way for you to die if you use perfect play, then the game is too easy and boring. 04:41 Though "sufficiently skilled" can be an arbitrarily high bar. 04:41 a quick summary is high-headroom = multiple choices are viable, low-headroom = only one choice is viable 04:41 low headroom is Brogue. 04:42 yep 04:42 Brogue's headroom is not zero but it's clearly intentionally low 04:42 ais523: so that means in vanilla there's low headroom because only so few items exist that give reflection or magic resistance, and in slex you have high headroom because many more items convey those vitally important properties and you get to pick your favorite one? ;) 04:42 LarienTelrunya: No. 04:42 LarienTelrunya: you don't get to pick, though, except on the occasional wish 04:42 LarienTelrunya: slex has *much* lower headroom than vanilla. 04:42 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 4109 points, T:3447, quit 04:42 there's so many possible items that the ones you want probably just won't generate 04:43 headroom is about the player's ability to control outcomes by careful planning. 04:43 …how do wishes work in slex, anyway? 04:43 I had a sudden realisation that they probably give you the exact opposite of what you asked for half the time, or something weird like that 04:43 wishes work similar to vanilla, and I even made it so that if an artifact wish fails, you get a random artifact as a consolation prize 04:43 as they seem to go directly against its philosophy 04:44 and actually, there's so many possible items that the chances of not having at least one source of reflection/MR at castle depth is much more unlikely than in vanilla 04:45 ais523: Your "becomes hostile if they see you attack an ally of their race" should probably apply to more than just Gnomes. I'd make it a permonst flag, actually. 04:45 could it sensibly be linked to an existing flag? it's hard to remember what half the permonst flags do as it is 04:45 LarienTelrunya: headroom isn't about chances; it's about agency. 04:45 I don't object to new flags being added if they serve a purpose, but i suspect there are rather too many 04:46 * LarienTelrunya still doesn't really understand what headroom is 04:46 ais523: I think there aren't enough, because too much stuff in the code has to enumerate lists of specific monsters instead of using flags. 04:46 LarienTelrunya: the simple description: suppose you have a character idea in mind, before you start playing the game 04:47 what's the chance that you get to play your character like that? 04:47 hmm... that probably also depends on how realistic the idea is 04:47 (and still win) 04:47 100% and 0% are clearly both problematic values 04:48 but there's a range of viable possibilities in between 04:48 if I play vanilla, pick a healer, and my idea is "I want to use the Tsurugi of Muramasa and use it on everything, and use a large box as portable container", chances are it won't work very well :P 04:48 that works in vanilla, I'm pretty sure 04:48 I've already done the large box part 04:49 healer with tsurugi doesn't seem so out there that it wouldn't be compatible 04:49 ais523: Tell the truth: you did the large box as a valkyrie. 04:49 jonadab: sure, that's because I do everything as a valk 04:49 and I think I was clear that the healer and tsurugi weren't part of it 04:50 But yes, in vanilla, a healer *could* use the Tsurugi and a large box. It's not optimal, but you could do it. 04:50 ais523: what, the arena doesn't spawn monsters??? wtf? 04:50 LarienTelrunya: over time? no 04:50 it should become clear why as you read on 04:51 are the floors diggable, so you can salvage the game after plugging all holes? 04:51 ais523: Of all shop types, why did you guarantee the _deli_ in Minetown? 04:51 LarienTelrunya: no reason to make them undiggable 04:52 jonadab: a) it's the least valuable, so has the least balance impact from game to game; b) new players often run out of food early, and buying rations at minetown is something that should be an entirely reasonable stopgap if you didn't do Sokoban first 04:52 a) also means that you can put more shops in Minetown without it becoming overwhelmingly valuable 04:52 Players who are new enough to run out of food, can get to Minetown? 04:52 quite a few of my changes are pure flavour 04:53 and yes, Minetown skill is lower skill than not-starve skill 04:53 Huh. 04:53 I still sometimes have trouble getting to Minetown, and I haven't had food trouble in over a year. 04:53 Maybe two or three years. 04:54 I mean, with _some_ roles I can usually get to Minetown. Monk for instance. 04:54 do you do it before or after Sokoban? 04:54 It's easier after. 04:54 I sometimes attempt it before, depending on role and circumstance. 04:54 Say, if I run into a group of bees in the main dungeon and have to retreat. 04:55 I'm interested in what LarienTelrunya (and bhaak, for that matter) think of my suggestion that the Minetown altar is always-neutral 04:55 But the Mines are pretty scary that early. 04:55 I normally see early Mines as a place for emergency expfarming, and typically want to upgrade my weapon before going there 04:55 well I already said it makes neutral alignment much more attractive 04:55 ais523: I think L has a town generator patch that could possibly be used for Minetowns. 04:55 Or adapted. 04:55 if you stairdance upon arriving there you can typically get enough experience to survive early on 04:56 jonadab: could be useful 04:56 in general I'm in favour of not handcoding any level 04:56 Right, I want to increase the number of different level generators. 04:56 To reduce the dependence on .des files. 04:57 But I also want to make it easier for .des files to include randomized areas. 04:57 why does the ranger quest start level get so much hate? 04:57 In particular, in MAP segments, I want to allow '?' to mean "fill in this area with randomly generated terrain. 04:58 LarienTelrunya: it's basically a 1-tile-wide corridor full of things you aren't allowed to kill 04:58 LarienTelrunya: Because it has A) lots of peaceful monsters and also B) lots of narrow corridors. 04:58 and a really long one at that 04:59 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu) killed Moldoux, the Defenceless Mold, on T:179 04:59 rip Yuring 04:59 You can spend hundreds, perhaps in severe cases thousands of turns standing around waiting for peaceful monsters to JUST MOVE ALREADY. 05:00 ah, so just make the trees capable of being chopped? 05:00 jonadab: hmm, so far I think I prefer my alternative-Sokoban to yours 05:00 LarienTelrunya: That would help a lot, yes. 05:01 in general my side branches are full of quirky gameplay changes that aim to change the axis on which you play the game 05:01 ais523: If you mean Nabokos, yes, I don't like the details of my proposal. 05:01 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 05:01 btw, rangers chopping down trees is a flavour fail; best fix is probably just to make the corridor wider and/or not a corridor 05:01 ais523: Have you seen the version of that level that's in Fourk? 05:01 Defenceless? 05:01 Is that correct? Isn't it Defenseless? 05:02 jonadab: no 05:02 Khor: probably british english; I'd normally say "defenseless" too 05:02 I haven't played anything but a minimal amount of Fourk 05:02 *any but a minimal amount 05:02 ais523: https://github.com/tsadok/nhfourk/blob/master/libnethack/dat/Ranger.des#L11 05:03 ^ This is Khor's work. 05:03 Kill a named monster then crashed by great wyrm of power 05:03 jonadab: oh right, I have seen that 05:03 I just forgot it was in Fourk 05:03 What is the great wyrm of power 05:04 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 43 points, T:180, killed by a monster (great wyrm of power) 05:04 yuring: based on LarienTelrunya's reaction to the unique death message, I assume that was an intentional trap 05:04 yuring: Moldoux is a trap of sorts; killing him will summon the level 85 great wyrm of power to end you. RIP :( 05:05 Khor: "defenseless" means "without defense"; "defenceless" would have something to do with fences, I guess? 05:05 Could be a pun, in the right context. 05:06 jonadab: in terms of tribute levels, you could certainly make a level that was visually similar to DCSS 05:06 but there's no way you could make the rest of the UI match, it's too different 05:06 ADOM should fit fairly well, it's already similar in UI style to NetHack 05:06 ais523: I think Vlad should still want/steal the candelabrum, for flavor reasons (but not have covetous behavior otherwise). 05:07 that's reasonable, also never going to come up in this proposal 05:07 unless someone tries to set up the situation intentionally 05:07 Hmm, ZAPM tribute level would probably not work without adding ZAPM monsters/items to the game. 05:08 jonadab: hahaha :D 05:09 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 15046 points, T:7733, killed by a warg 05:09 ais523: Oooh, a single guaranteed full-inventory ID. _Interesting_. That is certainly a compelling branch reward that early in the game. 05:10 I wanted to expand the "special thrones" idea more than I did 05:10 but it turns out that most throne results suck 05:10 Thrones usually just vanish in a puff of logic, IME. 05:11 I'd like to see them not do that unless they've done _something_ at least mildly interesting. 05:11 jonadab: if that was a guaranteed reward, I wouldn't ever use it early in the game. I would wait until I had a ton of items in the mid-late game and go back for it. 05:11 Khor: Well, it'll only ID as many things as you can carry in open inventory at once. 05:11 you normally have a decent stack of ?oID by then 05:11 and yes, you're limited by open inventory size 05:12 You can fit most of the stuff you'd want to identify in your open inventory. 05:12 But it is true that you'd have so many identify scrolls that it wouldnt matter. 05:12 Or even jus the spell by then. 05:12 just* 05:13 stupid 52 item limit :P 05:15 LarienTelrunya: If one were inclined to be mean, it'd be tempting to reduce the limit to 22 (so full inventory always fits on a single screen even at 80x24. 05:15 not if you have several types, because all the headers also use a line :D 05:15 Oh, right. 05:15 Hmm, 15 then. 05:16 :-) 05:16 jonadab: this reminds me, I really wanted to reduce the maximum level height by 1 05:16 to allow more room for UI 05:16 ais523: wtf, why keep the XL14 limit for the quest? Some role quests are so easy that even a XL9 char could beat them with no rela trouble... 05:16 very few levels use that line anyway 05:16 *real 05:16 LarienTelrunya: to add a new goal to the game 05:16 specifically, that of gaining enough experience to qualify for the quest 05:17 ... 05:17 the Quest unlock requirement isn't a "you'll die if you go here now", it's an obstacle that has to be overcome 05:17 much like defenceless molds that kill you if you kill them 05:17 my XL13 samurai usually go "arrrrrrrrgh I can easily kill Takauji with my wand of death and I've killed wolves and stalkers before, just LET ME IN ALREADY OR I WILL KILL YOU WITH MY KATANA" 05:18 the only thing the limit does is "oh yawn how many more boring hours do I have to spend with boring XP grinding?" 05:18 LarienTelrunya: well you can just take the Bell off the leader in this proposal 05:18 also, you naturally hit around XL12 at the Quest (with vanilla's experiene formula) 05:18 so it's a case of if you want to spend c!oGLs on it, whether you do creative things with wraiths, or whether you'd prefer to griend 05:18 because at that point, there's literally no monster that can still pose a threat assuming you already did the castle, it just eats up your time waiting to finally reach that level 05:19 ais523: flavor-wise, minetown is not a gnomish settlement, so that's not a compelling reason for the altar being neutral 05:19 bhaak: it has plenty of gnomes in it 05:19 and I wanted some fixed alignment, neutral made the most sense 05:20 especially because the main benefit of a /coaligned/ early altar is to sacrifice for artifacts, and that's what neutral's meant to be best at 05:20 ais523: for the gameplay experience, I don't think it's a big nuisance. you still have the priest with its benefits that are not tied to alignment. 05:20 ais523: what would a non neutral player lose. holy water generation? 05:20 ais523: well, so in your proposal I'd probably just say "ah my samurai isn't XL14 yet? well screw you Sato, now you die" 05:20 LarienTelrunya: in that case, why not adjust the accuracy/damage formulas so that late-midgame monsters /are/ a real threat? 05:20 ais523: Neutrals don't want to sacrifice for artifacts, because they'd get artifact weapons. 05:21 jonadab: ah right, which they don't really want 05:21 neutrals want to *wish* for artifacts, because they have the best non-weapon artifact options. 05:21 is that an usual strategy. altar camping in mine town for artifacts? isn't that too early? you usually find another altar later in the dungeon for that 05:21 making the midgame monsters threatening would be a good idea to reduce boredom :) 05:21 I guess this would work best with the fiqhack split 05:21 LarienTelrunya: my general assumption is that everything in slex will find some way to kill the character 05:22 is that good or bad? 05:22 -!- nht has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:22 -!- nht has joined #hardfought 05:22 LarienTelrunya: depends on what you want in a game 05:23 bad from my point of view but it's not necessarily the same as others' 05:23 also: ais523: play slex *bundlebundlebundle* :) that way you can find out exactly how "unplayable" (or not) it is 05:23 there's a market for Slash'EM-like games 05:23 bhaak: Personally, I only sacrifest in a fairly narrow range of situations, mostly if there's a role-guaranteed first artifact that I want (e.g., Cleaver, Magicbane). 05:23 LarienTelrunya: it has the vanilla interface, doesn't that make it unplayable by default? :-P 05:24 Heh. 05:24 LarienTelrunya: rebase slex onto NH4. 05:24 jonadab: btw, the first level of Vlad's tower is no-bones because it contains branch stairs 05:24 and the bones loading code can't handle those 05:24 it's a technical, not gameplay, reason 05:24 ais523: Yeah, I want to lift that technical restriction. 05:24 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 346 points, T:889, killed by a monster (human) 05:24 obviously this is the sort of thing that can be changed 05:24 slex also has a curses interface, and once K2 gets around to implementing my critical bugfix commit, that will hopefully be stable enough for actual playing :) 05:25 If it contains the branch _exit_, then there's no reason why the bones loading code shouldn't be able to handle that. 05:25 If it's a branch *entrance*, which can occur at multiple depths, then just remove the branch stairs when saving the bones. 05:25 (When I say no reason the bones loading code "shouldn't" be able to handle that, I mean ideally, if it were fixed to do so.) 05:26 LarienTelrunya: It needs the NH4 interface. 05:26 jonadab: I think it's unclear on which branch it should link to 05:26 also, I was exaggerating a bit wrt interface, I learned to play un-UI-patched 3.4.3 for devnull 05:26 ais523: doesn't the branch exit in any given branch always lead to the same branch? 05:26 jonadab: why? curses is quite similar already, and probably what you use when playing stuff like grunt or dnethack 05:26 the main issue I have is not noticing I'm low on HP 05:27 jonadab: no, dungeon.pdf is theoretically user-modifiable 05:27 nobody actually does though 05:27 I think that counts as a savebreaking change. 05:27 (Modifiying the dungeon layout.) 05:27 why is it dungeon.pdf? that makes it sound like it was an Adobe Acrobat document :P 05:27 LarienTelrunya: It's probably _older_ than Adobe PDF. 05:27 Back then people used PostScript. 05:28 And they *liked* it. 05:28 jonadab: it doesn't actually break saves in vanilla 05:28 we did it in the middle of /dev/null/nethack once 05:28 to fix the undermines bug 05:28 Hmm. 05:28 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 0 points, T:35, killed by a cowardly attack on her breasts 05:29 The ability to modify the whole design of the dungeon layout without breaking saves does not seem as important to me as making bones loading actually work. 05:29 I'm not sure if that counts as hall of fame, actually? 05:30 it was pretty well known 05:30 and apparently the best place in the game for pudding farming 05:31 ais523: dnethack Sokoban has "stone crates" rather than boulders. 05:31 They contain food, which becomes available when the crate falls into a hole. 05:31 huh, that's clever 05:31 (And Sokoban contains no other food.) 05:31 I kind-of like that 05:32 It fits with something I read in your proposal reasonably well. 05:32 I assume they're still a `-class item that's actually drawn using 0? 05:32 I kind of like it too, but haven't bothered to implement it in Fourk. 05:32 ais523: I don't remember, but probably. 05:32 after completing dnethack soko, you have something like 50 food rations :D 05:33 right, you might have to tone down the actual quantity of food somewhat 05:33 also dnethack soko always spawns monsters on the upstair, making it feel even more barren and dull than vanilla soko! 05:33 I assume that other methods of destroying them (e.g. striking) also generate the food, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense 05:33 Yeah, that seems excessive. 05:34 Although I have plans to make food rations a borderline useless item. 05:34 ais523: huh, the gateway would also prevent you from teleporting from Gehennom up to dlvl1? 05:35 LarienTelrunya: sure, I wanted Gehennom to be a partial reset 05:35 locking the player inside was the most obvious way, and it's very flavourful 05:36 you don't have mythological heroes fighting their way into the underworld, then just teleporting back out 05:36 EPI: once you enter Gehennom, the remaining dungeon stops existing until you get the Amulet of Yendor. Upstairs, branchporting, levelporting etc. simply don't work to get you out of there. 05:36 (or is that what the proposal actually does?) 05:36 That would certainly make the late game harder. 05:36 Which would likely be a good thing. 05:37 It would also make it hellishly difficult for foodless conduct runs. 05:37 LarienTelrunya: it's only a partial lock 05:37 there are at least two ways back, but they're both painful 05:37 ah, so I'll read about it when I get there? 05:38 yes 05:38 oh, gah 05:39 I forgot about Rodney's tower /entirely/ in my proposal 05:39 let's just assume it's the same as vanilla for now 05:39 as I think I made an unwinnable dungeon by mistake :-P 05:39 maybe I'll have better ideas for it later 05:39 just edit it in? ;) 05:40 jonadab: making the Black Market have two ups so that c!oGL doesn't work is clever 05:40 Oh, you're there already. 05:40 You read faster than I do. 05:40 I think I prefer my solution to making it hard to steal from, but maybe I'll have to steal some aspect of that (it's very near an upwards branch stairs in my plan too) 05:41 ais523: What, you're not going to call the ferryman "Charon"? I'm disappointed. :D 05:41 I fully expect my proposal to undergo significant revision. 05:41 LarienTelrunya: I considered it 05:41 I think it might be even better to leave them mysterious, though 05:41 but I like the concept of the River of the Dead, I'll probably make something like that for slex :) 05:42 LarienTelrunya: have you seen slethe? 05:42 ais523: If he doesn't have an official name, people will probably end up calling him Charon unofficially. 05:42 except that in slex it will be another valley layout, so if you're lucky then you won't get it 05:42 ais523: slex implements all the lethe levels :D 05:42 that was an inspiration although I'm not doing things the same way, and there was some amount of parallel evolution there 05:44 jonadab: huh, we have very different opinions on the HPoM's danger level in vanilla 05:44 it's probably the single monster most likely to kill me 05:44 and you're suggesting a buff due to it being laughably weak? 05:44 Wait, really? 05:44 ais523: have you ever seen dnethack's version of that in action? 05:44 LarienTelrunya: no, but I've seen you complain about it 05:45 jonadab: high priests hit really hard 05:45 He's nowhere near as dangerous as Rodney, IME. 05:45 vanilla's high priest is a popcorn monster by comparison 05:45 Rodney can normally be meleed to death quickly before he does much 05:45 just whack him a couple times or zap a wand of death and he's done for :P 05:45 if you try that with the HPoM you often die first 05:45 my plans give the HPoM a CoMR, to get rid of the easy way out 05:45 We must be going into the ascension run with very different stats. 05:46 ais523: implement the elder priest then, he also gets a comr and something that gives him reflection 05:46 I guess a compromise would be to increase its HP 05:46 but yes, I think jonadab prepares/grinds a lot more than I do 05:46 That's likely. I'm not nearly as good at the game. 05:46 if you can't handle vanilla's high priest, then how are you going to survive the riders and all the stuff on Astral? 05:46 The Riders are wimps. 05:46 They go down in like two hits. 05:47 As long as you don't let them stunlock you, you're good. 05:47 The riders can also deal 128 points of damage per hit and stunlock you. 05:47 jonadab: Crawl-style bones on Astral, neat 05:47 128 points of damage per hit? Are you playing the Evil Patch? 05:47 but yes, the Riders are total glass cannons 05:47 ais523: I don't know anything about Crawl-style bones. 05:47 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Riders#Death (look at the attacks: 2x 8d8) 05:47 they're nasty if they hit you, but you can also kill them very quickly 05:48 jonadab: basically they create a monster with comparable stats to the character who died 05:48 LarienTelrunya: Ok, yes, but that's subject to damage reduction. 05:48 both in terms of raw stats and in terms of spellcasting 05:48 Which, granted, is somewhat nerfed in Fourk :-) 05:48 and it can load on other players' levels at random, and keeps loading until killed 05:48 ais523: Oh, FIQHack style ghosts. 05:49 (Except in FIQHack they only load with their original level.) 05:49 the only reward for killing them is experience, plus they stop trying to kill you 05:49 You don't get their gear? 05:49 no 05:49 Ouch. 05:49 ais523: wait, am I right that the gateway only has two levels? somehow I thought it was going to have three 05:49 I think you're intended to run away in most cases 05:49 LarienTelrunya: only two in the current plan 05:49 you could add a third if you had a good idea, I guess? 05:50 jonadab: also elementals already are most dangerous on their home plane, just non-air Es are so weak that nobody actually notices 05:50 interesting to see that we both thought of buffing the other three, though 05:51 hmm I'm curious to see what the tower of madness does and whether it will be similar to ToME's illusory castle (that place is *evil* :P) 05:51 LarienTelrunya: it'd fit right into slex, I think 05:51 except that it might be a lot of coding work 05:51 it would be even in vanilla 05:52 I kind of want to put an optional 3D-maze branch into NetHack. 05:52 also, E is not a genocidable monster class (except for stalkers) 05:52 But I don't think most players would play it unless the reward is _substantial_, and then they'd complain bitterly. 05:52 jonadab: Rogue quest 05:52 Right, I forgot about that when I wrote the thing. 05:52 ais523: Oh, there's a thought. 05:52 it'd still be skippable by the means that you solve the Rogue quest now 05:53 Then everyone would hate Rogue as a class. 05:53 Ah. 05:53 but it'd actually be /less/ obnoxious than what's there at the moment 05:53 I see. 05:54 Oh, I think I might've redone parts of the Rogue quest. Let me check. 05:54 also, ?oEarth already doesn't work on Air (or Fire, Water, or Astral) 05:54 Oh, right, I redid their quest locate and squeezed one line out of quest goal. 05:54 ais523: Oh, hmm, I probably just didn't know that. 05:55 ais523: whoa, a level where you have to have food poisoning and which is a maze of iron bars :O 05:55 I consider ?oFlood working on Earth, Air, and Fire a notable bug in UnNetHack 05:55 LarienTelrunya: I told you you'd like it :-P 05:56 * LarienTelrunya considers adding a full-screen-size maze of iron bars, with 50 pestilence traps placed randomly. 05:56 (it makes a bit more sense in context; not much, though…) 05:56 ais523: Scroll of flood _very definitely_ shouldn't work on Fire. 05:56 _probably_ not on Earth or Air either. 05:56 jonadab: it lets you sequence break by drowning and getting lifesaved 05:56 so there's a good gameplay reason it shouldn't work, too 05:56 in addition to the flavour reason 05:56 Ah. 05:58 LarienTelrunya: Why not a mandatory fifty-level 3D maze with iron bars for walls, between the main dungeon and Gehennom? 05:58 well we don't have 3D mazes ;) 05:58 But you _could_. 05:58 actually that reminds me of an old game named "Mazemaker", which made 3D mazes, and trying to solve them made my brain explode 05:58 I mean, you'd have to fix the whole "each level can only have one non-branch up stair and one non-branch down stair" thing. 05:58 But you can handle that, right? 05:59 jonadab: huh, our plans for Fire are strategically very similar even though our implementationsn are really different 05:59 Oh? Interesting. Haven't got that far yet (not a fast reader). 06:00 also, is mentoining an offhand katana a jab at me? 06:00 I think I'm the only person who does that 06:00 and even then, it was a joke the first time 06:00 I'd expect there to be a few cases where we'd come up with similar things, as we tend to have often similar ideas about balance (though clearly not the SAME, due to wildly different play styles). 06:00 ais523: I thought off-hand katana was common strategy. 06:01 I think the wiki suggests it. 06:01 THe other popular choice is silver saber. 06:01 I thought saber was standard 06:01 as it's much easier to get hold of one 06:01 off-hand katana normally needs a wish, at least the way I play 06:01 Typically. Unless Samurai. 06:01 excalibur and katana is standard :P 06:01 (says the woman who plays only samurai in non-slex variants) 06:02 I think saber is more common off-hand than katana, but katana if you can get one is also popular. 06:02 jonadab: btw, the fake wizard's tower is teleport-legal, it's just also teleport-regioned 06:02 meaning you can't teleport from inside it to outside or vice versa 06:02 THe balance between #twoweapon and two-handed weapon and shield is clearly not in scope for dungeon overhaul, of course. 06:02 kind-of like the real one, come to think of it 06:03 OH, interesting, I didn't realize that. 06:03 I thought that was one of the annoying "a mysterious force prevents you from teleporting" levels. 06:03 Maybe I was confused. 06:03 There's no real reason for the fake tower levels to be non-teleport. 06:03 But vanilla just has *so many* non-teleport levels. 06:04 yes 06:04 notele is almost something people write in special levels out of habit 06:05 jonadab: btw, wrt your balance note: permadeath games have to get easier as time goes on in order to stay balanced, unless they're very short 06:05 if you define "easier" as "less likely to die" 06:06 but that can be by stalling the player's progress until they get better instead of killing them, rather than actually increasing the chance of traversing them 06:06 Brogue definitely gets harder as you go deeper. 06:06 And I like that about it. 06:07 not necessarily? IME it's fairly flat 06:07 maybe getting a bit easier towards the end 06:07 when you get deep enough that you don't have to clear levels to avoid starving, that's a noticeable bump in your survival chances 06:07 I've been able to track my progress in getting better at the game from "I always die by depth 6" to "I usually die by depth 6, the rest of the time by 10" to "I usually die by depth 10, always by 12", and now I _occasionally_ get as far as 15. 06:08 And I get past 10 a lot more often than I used to. 06:08 I see this as a good thing. 06:08 The progression, I mean. 06:08 yes 06:08 I'm thinking of difficulty curve more in terms of an experienced/expert player 06:08 jonadab: wait, you didn't ascend even once yet? And you wrote a variant that tries to completely change lategame balance without having been to the lategame yet? 06:09 placing something late-game that kills you the first time you see it is a bit of a jerk move 06:09 In NetHack, you can't tell you're getting better at all, you think everything is totally luck-based, even _after_ the first couple of times you ascend. 06:09 Because the difficulty curve is _wrong_. 06:09 but apart from that… 06:09 jonadab: I could tell I was getting better 06:09 basically because I could win with less grinding 06:09 LarienTelrunya: I haven't ascended _Brogue_. 06:09 oh, sorry, thought you were still referring to nethack 06:10 try using "won" or "victory" for a Brogue win; it doesn't have ascension as such 06:10 LarienTelrunya: No, I've ascended half a dozen roles in NetHack. 06:10 or even "escaped", but that'll confuse NetHack players a lot 06:10 (in Brogue the D:1 upstairs only works if you have the Amulet) 06:10 ais523: Oh, it doesn't have ascension? I haven't got that far to know those differences. 06:10 it still has a run from D:26 up to D:1 06:11 (you can also go down to D:40 but only if you're insane) 06:11 Heh. 06:11 As hard (and _dark_) as the levels get after depth 10, I don't wanna know what they do at depth 30. 06:11 it actually gets repetitive very quickly after depth 26, because there are basically no monsters hard enough left 06:12 so you just get the same four or five monster packs over and over again 06:12 Hmm, that seems like a failure. 06:12 Well in nethack you don't even get that. :P 06:12 Or maybe I just prepare too much for the endgame whenever I reach it. 06:13 Brogue cares more than NetHack about monster variety. 06:13 I mean, it has fewer monsters; but they're *much* more distinctive. 06:13 btw, have we finished the spoiler discussion? if so I can invite FIQ back 06:13 Well, I haven't finished reading yet, but we can discuss another time. 06:14 Actually, I will probably mostly just incorporate my responses into my next revision. 06:14 I need to go buy food and sleep anyway 06:14 Ok. 06:14 so if you want to talk to me about it, it'd better be another time 06:14 let's do this then: 06:14 ===================================== SPOILERS END HERE ===================================== 06:15 -!- FIQ has joined #hardfought 06:15 sup 06:15 heh, and I only read about half of the thing yet 06:15 To be continued... 06:15 I can chat about it another time 06:15 night everyone! (even though it's almost midday) 06:15 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 07:05 oh my the discussion over the last few hours.... 07:05 heh ;) 07:06 K2: Your dungeon overhaul proposal when? 07:07 my proposa should be done later today 07:07 well, draft of it 07:07 didnt know i had a paper due... 07:07 i am horrible with homework 07:08 K2: warmup for computer security studies :) 07:08 Dungeon security is important too. 07:08 it's due on Sunday, October 1st 07:08 get to work! 07:08 ok ok... 07:08 here's my submission 07:08 *ahem* 07:08 whatever amy is doing in slex is great and should be the new standard. done 07:09 Good thing I wasn't trying to drink anything. 07:09 no! don't spoil me with proposal 07:09 :D 07:09 * FIQ zaps K2 with a wand of invisibility and himself with a wand of amnesia 07:09 lol 07:10 * jonadab zaps slex with a wand of interface screw. 07:10 It's not very effective... 07:11 Is that an Earthbound reference? 07:11 No 07:11 Worse 07:11 alright brb time to get the kid on the bus 07:11 Oh, right, that'd be "It's super effective." 07:11 no 07:11 they're both Pokemon references 07:11 also it's "It's super effective!" 07:11 argh, too late! K2, I wanted to *bundlebundlebundle* you to implement that hallucination bugfix ;) 07:12 LarienTelrunya: what about the bundlebundelbundle fix 07:12 well, it fixes a bug that existed already in SLASH'EM, which can corrupt savegames beyond repair 07:13 I've put a bug ticket on their sourceforge repo in case they're still alive after all these years, too 07:13 that's a great bug 07:13 https://sourceforge.net/p/slashem/bugs/961/ 07:13 it's because SLASH'EM randomizes the items' appearance while hallucination whenever their name is being displayed, e.g. every time you open your inventory 07:13 ... or in the case of curses-slex, every time the screen updates due to the permanent inventory ;) 07:14 !tell Elronnd you're the new slash'em maintainer, right? https://sourceforge.net/p/slashem/bugs/961/ 07:14 Will do, FIQ! 07:14 LarienTelrunya: why doesn't this bug affect grunt 07:14 not sure if it does, didn't test 07:14 but I can look at grunt's objnam.c to see whether it might exist 07:15 looks like grunt uses a completely different algorithm for determining hallu item appearances and would thus not have the bug 07:16 slex actually creates a fake item, reads the name and then deletes the fake item; grunt apparently rolls a dice to get any entry from onames.h and prints the name of that 07:16 the problem is when that fake item in slex/slashem is a container that contains a timered object, because there's no "delete contents" line anywhere, it just assumes it can delete the fake item without checking its potential contents first 07:17 that causes the obj_is_local panic because now the timered object either no longer exists or is a "free" object for obj_is_local purposes 07:17 and loading the panic save generated that way does not work, i.e. it corrupts the savegame! 07:38 -!- KhorM has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:39 -!- Elronnd has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:41 -!- khoR_ has joined #hardfought 08:18 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 08:20 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:25 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:31 -!- nht has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:31 -!- nht has joined #hardfought 09:09 argh, I shouldn't read any more backscroll until I read ais's proposal - help, I'm trapped 6 hours in the past! 09:10 hahaha 09:11 heh 09:11 i'm only part way through ais523's redesign proposal myself 09:27 !tell LarienTelrunya aren't you using dealloc_obj? it should take care of timers, etc 09:27 Will do, FIQ! 10:01 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:15 Oh lordy 10:15 I have no idea what I'm doing 10:18 [fh] Khor (Pri Hum Mal Law) killed the ghost of Tiritas, the former Adept, on T:2337 10:30 -!- nht has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:33 -!- nht has joined #hardfought 11:12 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 1571 points, T:799, killed by a monster (green mushroom patch) 11:28 -!- Khor is now known as khoR 11:41 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 11:50 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 368 points, T:449, killed by a monster (fairy moogle) 12:28 Where would I find ais' proposal? My backscroll doesn't reach that far back 12:30 http://bhaak.net/nethack/dungeon-redesign.html 12:30 bhaak formatted it so its more pretty like 12:31 thank you 12:55 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:19 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 13:19 -!- ais523 has quit [Changing host] 13:19 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 13:20 FIQ: could you send me an email to my nethack4 address directly? any email, I want to look at the headers 13:20 (we're still trying to diagnose what's up with the spam filter) 13:24 ok 13:25 khoR: You're preparing to write a Dungeon Overhaul proposal. 13:25 any mail or should I send an identical copy to the one that got stuck? 13:25 If it's the headers he wants to look at, the body of the message doesn't matter as long as you send it in the same way. 13:26 ais523: ^ 13:26 Well, shouldn't. 13:26 Asuming there were no attachments or anything. 13:26 *ss 13:26 jonadab: right 13:26 but figured I'd ask 13:26 yes, it's just the headers that matter, body is irrelevant 13:26 if it helped, just was less important 13:26 ok 13:27 aissent 13:27 -ais 13:32 hmm, I'm not sure the rest of the devteam is correct as to the cause 13:32 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:32 (also, gmail's base64 wrapping algorithm is stupid but does appear to comply with the RFCs) 13:36 ais523: but not all of my mail gets stuck 13:36 some go through 13:36 so I'm not sure how relevant mail provider is 13:37 FIQ: right, the current theory is that gmail provides two DKIM headers, which (being digital signatures, and thus a seeded hash of the message data) are effectively just random base64 13:37 and with that much random base64 in the message headers, the odds of it containing something that trips the spam filter are not as low as they should be 13:37 if that is the case, though, this is likely affecting basically everyone at random 13:38 lovely 13:38 (it's possible that the spam filter predates DKIM, in which case the issue wouldn't have shown up when it was written; nethack.org's been around for ages) 13:38 however, this is just a theory, I don't know if it's actually the cas 13:38 *case 13:39 Wait, the spam filter doesn't know what header is what, it just blind searches the whole block? 13:39 I mean, I can see filtering on certain widely-abused fields, sure. 13:39 Subject, notably.' 13:39 ais523: should I dig through my mail to see my sent mail (presumably just listing subject for a better overview) to see if anything more got stuck? 13:39 to see frequency 13:40 jonadab: apparently 13:40 this is news to me as of a few hours ago 13:40 actually even more recently as I can't read email while asleep 13:40 FIQ: is it all on the wiki anyway? if so, possibly I could compare that to the list of emails I've received from you 13:41 it's not 13:41 wiki only list as of a specific date, to be clear that no messages past that will *not* be included 13:42 (because I can't reference my old nethack.org bug reports...) 13:44 actually, better idea 13:44 let me send you a list of all your emails to devteam@ that I received 13:44 then you can cross-refrence 13:44 *reference 13:44 with the ones that you sent 13:45 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 13:46 ais523: sounds reasonable 13:47 I PMed you the link, let me know when you have it so that I can take the image back down 13:48 incidentally, the "please give us a list of our own emails" thing strikes me as very hard to do securely, it's hard to verify the sender of an email 13:49 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:51 ais523: doesn't seem that bad 13:51 -!- khoR has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:52 there was an exploit that made the news recently 13:52 but I think it's possible that some using the nethack.org might've gotten stuck as well 13:52 ais523: I was just repeating what I said in pm, for public posterity 13:52 of the issue likely not being too bad 13:53 in which you signed up to site A as, e.g. support@B, then you went to site B and asked for a list of all support mails that "you'd" sent from noreply@A 13:53 this then let you convincingly (to a computer) claim to site A that you could act for site B, and gain access to B-specific things like internal channels 13:54 obviously it's a problem if nethack.org works as a site B in this, which your system would allow unless there's some reliable way to claim your identity 13:54 (such as the reply only coming by email and only sent to the requesting email address, but that has problems to do in an automated way due to backscatter) 13:55 ais523: Looking at the nethack.org buglist reference, I can't think of an obvious case where a mail got stuck that I distinctly remember. I know that several of these issues in the list went ignored, so it's probably the same case -- if any got stuck, it's a minor issue (few mails) 13:55 emails to the devteam often are ignored unless they're answered quickly 13:55 Right, that was my initial suspect in first place before I went on to start documenting what I sent 13:55 basically because although there is in theory a ticketing system to make sure we don't permanently miss them, the few active devs are having a hard enough time keeping up with emails as they arrive 13:56 it's basically just pat rankin who does day-to-day bugfixes 13:56 I'm one of the more active devteam members and I hardly do anything :-( 13:56 It was annoying me a bit that my stuff kept getting ignored so I just wanted to see if there was actual issues going on 13:56 By starting to document them on the wiki 13:56 So I could easily know -- including for nethack.org reports -- which ones went on to be ignored 13:56 (paxed is the other really active dev but mostly focuses on improvements rather than bugfixes; keni is also active but in meta-administration rather than NetHack's code itself) 13:57 and which didn't get sent in first place for some reason 13:57 So far since I started documenting on the wiki, 2 out of 10 mail got stuck 13:58 Which is bad, but seems to mostly be an anomaly in statistics 13:58 considering the history 13:59 2 out of 10 getting stuck/blocked is quite significant and worth fixing, but not enough to explain the public perception of devteam@ being a black hole for email. 13:59 jonadab: Right 13:59 And I know that several of the mails that *did* go through (by looking at the history ais523 sent me) got ignored also 13:59 Of course, that's a rather small sample size. 14:00 And yes, we know not all messages get answered. 14:00 Warnock applies. 14:01 of my direct mails to DT, since 2015, 3 out of 10 got replies, around half of the ignored ones got addressed in the commit list anyway 14:02 the fact that 70% went on to be ignored would explain public's perception 14:02 I guess part of the problem is that if a dev doesn't have a reasonable response, e.g. because the message is about something we don't know about 14:02 they just stay silent and hope someone else will deal with it 14:03 but it's hard to see what else we could do 14:04 Have a designated hitter who, if nobody else answers in three days, responds in _some_ fashion even if it's a generic "thanks for your message" message? 14:04 ais523: but with that said, several of the ignored ones got addressed anyway in commit log 14:04 That might be overkill. 14:04 so there's no reason (besides lack of time, of course, which is fair) that there couldn't have been a reply that amounts to "we got tha mail, and fixed it, thanks" or similar 14:04 FIQ: Yes, but THAT has only become publicly visible somewhat recently. 14:04 jonadab: the commit log? yes 14:04 I know 14:04 The commit log, right. 14:05 Meaning, in the past, people would've seen those ones as ignored too. 14:05 jonadab: I am not using it as counterargument to argue that not replying is good 14:05 in fact, IMO it *worsens* it since clearly there is a valid reply "we fixed it", etc 14:06 Oh, I was more thinking in terms of analyzing "this is why the public perception is what it is". 14:06 Sorry, I tend to be too analytical sometimes. 14:06 (to clarify: I don't feel self-important to the point that not getting a reply is something I find intolerable -- there can be several reasons, like lack of time, etc) 14:06 Right, but the NetHack Dev Team seems to have a PR problem with this. 14:07 jonadab: I have no idea how the average mail sent to DT looks like 14:08 so I have no idea how easy, or not, they are to answer 14:08 I'm sure that varies. 14:09 I just feel *personally* that the "no reply" factor is a bit high as-is, there is more than one case where a simple "fixed" reply would've been enough, and makes it clear that yes, the devteam does in fact get, and respond, to mail 14:09 the "mode" (i.e. most common sort of) email is a bug report or a perceived-bug report 14:09 (many of these are obviously not actually bugs and could be simply answered by #nethack) 14:09 Ah. 14:09 That makes sense I guess. 14:09 ais523: right, that was my assumption as to the lack of replies 14:10 that DT gets flooded with "obvious" questions more suited for the community 14:10 and this makes it less motivating to reply, even to valid, mail 14:10 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 14:11 other emails tend to be related to building NetHack, typically on weird platforms (Universal Windows Platform, DOS, Atari, Mac OS Classic); patch submissions; and requests for the devteam to visit an event in perseon 14:11 but not all at the same time, obviously 14:12 Atari 2600 doesn't have anything resembling anywhere near vaguely within the realm of close to enough memory for a roguelike of any kind, let alone NetHack. 14:12 DOS has been done, with DJGPP. 14:12 jonadab: I think ais523 might be referring to the Atari ST 14:12 the platform build emails typically get replies but useless ones, because nobody can remember which devteam member is experienced with the platform and they probably aren't active anyway 14:12 yes, the atari which has an official build, which I think is ST 14:13 Ah. I'm vaguely aware that Atari had at some point some other products besides the 2600, but none of their other products were popular enough to really be notable, to my knowledge. 14:13 jonadab: the Atari ST was fairly popular in the EU 14:13 home computers in general, was 14:13 stuff like the atari st, commodore 64, amiga, etc 14:14 Commodore 64 was popular here, around the same time as things like the TRS80. 14:14 Nowhere near as popular as Apple //c or //e, though. 14:14 Or, later, IBM compatibles. 14:15 I think Apple //c was, _in its day_, more popular than the Atari 2600 and the (original) Nintendo, combined. 14:16 (But Nintendo wasn't a thing until after Apple had started to wane.) 14:32 FIQ: I had Atari ST and later Atari TT030. 14:32 FIQ: I remember compiling NCSA httpd on the TT back then. 14:59 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 15:11 [nd] Rx (Hea Gno Fem Neu), 2635 points, T:3739, quit 15:22 -!- Elronnd has joined #hardfought 15:30 [dnh] rikerw (Wiz Inc Mal Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1646 15:30 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:32 random stupid bug: dnh zombies who die to a rock trap will trigger it again on revival 15:32 and thus die again 15:32 and until the trap or zombie ends first 15:36 worth it to enchance darts as wizard? 15:38 rikersan: No. 15:40 didn't think so, but I had a stack of 60 or so 15:40 Wizard has spells, so enchant your Magicbane. 15:40 And be done with weapons. 15:44 I don't have magicbane yet but eh 15:44 I might enchance quarterstaff 15:44 I don't remember the specifics of that dnh magic staff 15:45 rikersan: It's guaranteed first gift. 15:45 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 15:46 mandevil: yeah I know i just haven't found any coaligned altars 15:46 and is it really worth sacfesting for? 15:51 I don't remember the specifics of that dnh magic staff: The staff of wild magic is unattainable 15:52 And there are downsides to enchanting magicbane 15:53 [4k] Sappu (philbo) (Wiz Syl Fem Law), 9534 points, T:4613, killed by a fire ant 15:53 tarmunora: ah 15:54 I freaking hate minesflayers 15:54 even if it's a polytrap 15:56 Special effects like fear and cancellation are less likely to occur 15:56 ah 15:56 seriously though screw polytraps 15:57 also: mon AI is broken, it prefers spamming akyls at range to sucking my brain 15:59 Mmh, monsters usually prefer to attack at range 15:59 iirc 15:59 which is kinda dumb 15:59 but whatever 15:59 the problem is I can also spam force bolt 15:59 so this is a standoff 15:59 his AC is too low ;-; 15:59 channel your inner Sir Robin: run away! 15:59 I could 16:00 it's actually really easy 16:00 You have a wand of striking? 16:00 the problem is the 3? elementals around 16:00 i'm standing on a elder elemental eye atm 16:00 lightning, ice I think, and dream 16:00 tarmunora: nope, only 0:0 mm 16:00 hey tame gnome lady though 16:01 who is too smart to melee it 16:01 What other spells? 16:01 barrow wight now 16:01 Leave your spell list open for a few seconds 16:01 I've only got forc ebolt and create fam 16:01 useful 16:01 slow monster he resisted 16:01 Mh 16:02 You should enables curses and perm_invent 16:02 ? 16:02 what's the latter do 16:02 Curses interface 16:02 And the latter makes your inventory appear on screen full time 16:02 On the side 16:03 ah 16:03 I don't like that 16:03 I've tried it iirc 16:03 I can see how it would be nice for speccers 16:03 It's nice with a big terminal 16:03 Mine is 158 by 70 16:04 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:04 ah 16:04 You should drop some stuff 16:04 Unburden 16:04 oh 16:04 true 16:05 *cough* spellbooks *cough* 16:05 I'm 16:05 so 16:05 dumb 16:05 I have an athame 16:05 I konw the elder sign 16:05 .-. 16:05 I can literally just ward him off 16:05 I am not good at this game 16:07 imma just run now 16:07 good mines end tho 16:07 Ehh 16:07 Wine cellar is the best imo 16:08 this has spellbooks tho 16:10 Spells are for nerds. Real adventurers use rocks 16:10 Bash everything to death with loadstones 16:11 real men make minions do all the work 16:11 khortemple is best minesend 16:12 rikersan: when did you last try curses interface 16:12 it got major improvements the last year 16:13 a while ago 16:13 I'll try it again later 16:13 tarmunora: doens't slex have loadstones deal d40 dmg or something lol 16:15 Loadstones are d30 when thrown 16:16 -!- nht has quit [Quit: nht] 16:16 I made use of that sweet, sweet, damage in my current game 16:18 ? 16:18 ah 16:18 what'd you do? 16:18 rikersan: observe my game to see the curses interface 16:19 You will likely need a larger terminal size 16:19 ah 16:20 holy crap 16:20 I had to zoom out twice 16:20 Heh 16:20 that's on like 11 pt font 16:20 otherwise it doesn't fit on my screen 16:20 and hahahahha 16:20 158 by 70 16:20 tha'ts the perfect use of a loadstone 16:20 it doesn't weight anything there right 16:20 Yup 16:20 that's perfect 16:20 You can cheat with it too 16:20 ? 16:20 also: what about +7 silver bullet? 16:21 The mass-shadow care not about enchantment or size of projectiles 16:21 ah 16:21 I thought it cared about enchant 16:21 Hence my 3 pistols: one with flint, one with loadstone, one with a silver bullet 16:21 huh 16:21 why flint? 16:21 I believe it cares about *negative* enchant 16:21 for things that can be aesily killed? 16:21 tha'ts odd but ok 16:21 Flint for shooting zombies 16:22 makes sense 16:22 Which resist all but slashing 16:22 are you male or female? 16:22 Female Myrkalfar 16:22 cool 16:22 balam for 1/2 magic dmg? 16:22 Advantage on AC rolls as well 16:22 ah 16:23 and sac doesn't matter for ana 16:23 Lol, these rothe zombies 16:23 yes 16:23 zombies in nethack are dumb af 16:23 what's the "shadowblade was poison" meassage? 16:23 Black web entity 16:23 ah 16:24 is that for any bare handed black web? 16:24 Unarmed attacks are turned into *4d8* shadow blade attacks 16:24 :o 16:24 tha'ts insane 16:24 once this run dies I need to try femdrow ana 16:26 I probably should get a stack of silver bullets and use the Annulus as BFG 16:26 yes 16:26 you can invoke for bullet making right? 16:26 But that's work :P 16:26 Yeah 16:27 There are better ways though 16:27 like going back to ana quest? 16:27 but tha'ts a slog 16:28 Grabbing a bullet fabber 16:28 ah 16:29 Yay, dig is back 16:31 [nd] Rx (Hea Gno Fem Neu), 374 points, T:1225, killed by a giant bat 16:34 Almost 700 bullets from the neutral quest 16:34 lol nice 16:36 Uhg, these crystals are heavy :/ 16:36 yes 16:38 The thing is, I like having half phys damage and having Magic Resistance 16:38 yes 16:38 I have 7 wishes, I've wished for 3(?) artifacts so far... 16:38 :/ my terminal doesn't show your map 16:38 it's just ???s 16:38 Hmm 16:39 Do you use puTTY? 16:39 no 16:39 gonna try reloading something 16:40 50% chance of getting Shield of the Resolute Heart from a wish 16:40 some site on the internet: "In short, when you come across a program that behaves like that, you should report it as a bug to the developers." 16:40 _cough_ KS _cough_ 16:40 *k2 16:41 heh 16:41 !lotg Tarmunora_ 16:41 May the Luck of the Grasshopper be with you always, Tarmunora_! 16:41 Dang 16:41 RIP 16:41 welp, I gtg now 16:41 see ya 16:42 will try to add curses 16:42 Seeya 16:42 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:42 [dnh] Tarmunora (Ana Dro Fem Cha) wished for "The blessed fixed greased historic +5 Shield of the Resolute Heart", on T:25968 16:42 Whoo! Only took 3 wishes! 16:43 only? 16:43 lucky you 16:44 Only 12.5% chance of failure with 3 wishes 16:45 And only 3 previous artifact wishes 16:45 "only" 3 previous 16:45 I got lucky and found a /oW in the dungeon 16:46 So I'm being less than conservative with my wishes 16:46 ah 16:46 Still have 2 charges + 2 wrests remaining 16:47 So now I can ditch that Earth crystal, free up some inventory weight 17:06 > 738 blessed +7 silver bullets (in quiver) 17:06 Much better 17:30 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 17:37 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.] 17:37 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 17:43 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 470 points, T:446, killed by a crossbow bolt 18:27 ais523: I used to believe (when I was new to nethack), due to rather confusing enlightenment messages with luckstones, that positive and negative luck was 2 seperate things 18:28 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 18:28 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 18:28 doing basically the same thing, and cancelling each other out if being the same, but basically being 2 seperate values 18:28 So I always blessed my luckstone :P 18:28 FIQ: I'm still not 100% sure how some luck effects work, like the full moon adjustment 18:28 Do you think such an actual mechanic could be of any interest or just be confusing? 18:29 Full moon is "extrinsic" +1 luck 18:29 Hmm that reminds me 18:29 I should look into refactoring how the game calculates luck 18:30 To make it similar to intrinsics and attributes 18:30 being calculated on-demand 18:31 Currently luckstone luck is stored as a seperate thing in u, being updated when needed (hopefully) 18:33 ais523: What makes the most sense when monsters are dead, ticking down thier luck regardless or freeze it? 18:33 I think I'll just freeze it 18:34 and every 300 turns, crawl through the monlist, ticking down everyone's luck 18:34 FIQ: I say you should record luck as the turn on which it goes back to 0 18:34 only if they have the amulet if x%600 is nonzero 18:34 or the actual value if the monster has a luckstone 18:35 ais523: That removes the benefit of calculating luckstone stuff on-demand 18:36 ? 18:36 Which I think is more error-prone than going through the monlist when appropriate 18:36 ais523: You would need to change the luck value on acquirement/loss of luckstone 18:36 oh, I see, you don't want to dead-reckon the "has luckstone luck freeze" property 18:36 Righ 18:36 t 18:36 Well, in general, not just for the freeze 18:37 Hmm 18:41 ais523: so I wonder, regarding occupations 18:41 why does the game not save mid-occupation? 18:41 as in 18:41 how does the game know 18:41 that the client is not going to disconnect and stop a multi-turn action abruptly 18:42 FIQ: it saves the client's inputs in realtime, just not backups 18:42 (also, while I messed with replaymode perf a while back, I made the game single-step occupations by accident in replay, so I think that is the much better approach wrt this) 18:42 if the client does disconnect abruptly, and doesn't have the courtesy to say "now make a backup" (the official client does), it can still reload from the commands 18:43 Ahh 18:43 So it would be like if you exited out in the middle of an action? 18:43 yep 18:45 there is 2 cases where the game handles !flags.incomplete and flags.interrupted differently 18:46 if flags.incomplete is nonzero, regardless of the value of flags.interrupted, it will forcibly revert a notime command at the end 18:46 er 18:46 *if flags.incomplete is false 18:46 win_request_command also sends the 2 values seperately 18:47 FIQ: did you check the client as well as the engine? 18:48 I was checking the engine since it was the only case where the flags were used 18:48 request_command however, is client-dependant 18:48 the client uses them indirectly via win_request_command 18:48 so I will have to check it now 18:48 right 18:48 as i was saying 18:48 :P 18:48 as I was saying 18:48 actually that zero-time revert is possibly relevant 18:48 I'm thinking of occupations which are timed as 0 actions + x actions 18:49 i.e. the initial command is not a no-op effect, but takes a length of time equal to zero as the entire timing is done in the occupations 18:49 in that case you want to revert if the command is /cancelled/, but not if a monster shows up while zero turns have elapsed 18:49 If a count is given, we continue for the given number of turns or until interrupted, ignoring the completed status. 18:49 the problem is that in that case, I don't see why we're even checking for interrupted before the first action 18:50 FIQ: oh wow, yes that does make a lot of sense 18:50 This is the only case, afaik, where the state of things actually matter 18:50 if I do something like 50s, but instead of a command like "search" which is special-cased it's a general-case command 18:50 then the client wants to stop repeating when a monster turns up, but not when the command finishes 18:52 hmm 18:54 I suppose I could add incomplete/interrupted and have them work as they do at the moment to eocc 18:54 Seems simplest 18:54 and lets me avoid having to reimplement accidental feature removal that had little reason for being removed (this doesn't significantly complicate the code, after all) 18:54 it was mostly just suspected as redundant 18:55 FIQ: I think incomplete is inherently part of occ, whereas interrupted isn't 18:55 thinking about it 18:56 Hm 18:56 So you think it makes more sense as a monflag? 18:57 Either way, being in flags is just wrong 18:57 because it has nothing to do with the gamestate but more with the player 18:58 right 18:58 should be in youaux/eyou/whatever it's called, or maybe even in struct monst if we implement a stateful AI 18:59 the AI needs to be able to do occupations 18:59 eating, wearing/taking off armor, etc, shouldn't paralyze them 18:59 it's rather unfair 18:59 W and T paralyze the player in vanilla 18:59 and at that p oint it makes most sense to handle it as with players 18:59 yes, and it is dumb 19:00 (well, set helpless state, but that's very similar to the "can't move" state that monsters have) 19:00 right 19:01 ais523: but making it occupations would also allow you to just tell monsters that want to wear something "wear this" 19:01 and let the existing player-equip code handle the rest 19:01 FIQ: my point is more, can't you do that without an occupation? 19:01 so oyu don't have to add weird restrictions on monster armor changes because "multi-stage equip is hard" 19:01 if a monster wants to wear armour, it probably still wants to wear armour the next turn, so will continue the action 19:02 multi-stage equip is the main potential trouble here, it caused huge confusion for TAEB 19:02 ais523: Not if the monster is hit.. 19:02 FIQ: in that case the occupation gets cancelled anyway 19:02 Yes, but not if you implement it for monsters as paralysis 19:02 Which I think you was suggesting? 19:02 what I think I mean here is, that instead of having a "wearing armour" occupation for monsters, give the monster the same multistage equip state that the player has 19:02 (Well, not implementing, more "keeping it as-is") 19:03 i.e. a desired item for each slot, together with wear progress 19:03 then the occupation itself doesn't matter 19:03 actually the occupation field for the player mostly doesn't matter in NH4 19:03 there are a few times it comes up but mostly only to deal with what are special cases in vanilla 19:03 in the general case it's unnecessary 19:04 ais523: Basically, I wanted to keep the occupation field for the specific purpose of monsters 19:04 To track what they are doing 19:04 And basically make them keep doing that 19:04 Unless interrupted, etc 19:05 How do you know a monster is unlocking something rather than eating? Etc 19:05 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 19:05 This avoids weird corner cases where monsters might end up doing "occupations" for 1 turn and sporadically switch to doing other things due to the situation being slightly different 19:06 FIQ: TAEB does that, but it feels more realistic rather than less 19:06 it's up to you though I think 19:06 Uh? 19:06 TAEB plays NH3 19:06 It can't even abort occupations 19:06 Or am I misunderstanding you? 19:07 And I am fairly sure TAEB oscillated a lot 19:07 Which is *not* realistic, IMO 19:07 FIQ: it can change its mind upon being interrupted or when performing something that takes multiple actions 19:08 simple examples are things like eating a ration in the middle of solving a Sokoban puzzle 19:08 When performing something that takes multiple turns, if not interrupted, it *can't* change its mind 19:08 Oh you mean like that 19:09 Monsters already have mstrategy for longterm goals, it doesn't mean that it wants to achieve said goal at all costs 19:09 yep 19:09 this basically depends on "how interruptible" the various occupations are 19:09 Similarly, if I do occupations form onsters, I wouldn't make them absolutely do it at all costs (if that was the case, they'd just as well be paralyzed) 19:10 ais523: What I was going to do was this 19:10 so this would basically just be an anti-oscillation feature, I guess 19:10 On start of monster turn, after paralysis stuff and whatnot 19:10 check current monster occupations 19:10 unless interrupted by force (HP damage/etc), like when action_interrupted happens for players, but not as often 19:11 And then have something like monster_wants_to_interrupt() or similar 19:11 with cases depending on occupation 19:11 And otherwise, continue the occupation 19:12 ais523: another thing, food 19:12 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Cha) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:2537 19:12 Generally speaking, pets don't take a bite for a turn and then proceeds to abandon it 19:13 And making it continuous *without* having monster occupations would lead to msg spam 19:13 FIQ: oh, that's a good point, nibbling is arguably optimal strategy but would look weird 19:13 so you want the occupation field in order to see if it's a continued action or not 19:13 ("Fido continues eating the green dragon corpse. Fido continues eating the green dragon corpse. Fido continues eating the green dragon corpse...") 19:13 incidentally, the way continued action message are implemented in NH4 at the moment are a bit hacky 19:13 so if you want to change that, feel free 19:14 ais523: Nibbling is not optimal strategy if you want intrinsics from the food 19:15 right 19:15 I'm talking about food for nutrition here 19:16 why'd beholder report only some #named artis? 19:16 didn't report any of the 4 I named in dnh, including sting 19:16 dnh might not livelog that 19:18 hmm 19:18 polymorph control should block sliming 19:19 in D&D it's more of a digestion+reproduction effect than a polymorph effect 19:20 didn't know D&D had green slime 19:20 ais523: unchanging cancels sliming atm 19:20 that's why I was thinking it 19:21 I think D&D might have invented green slime? if not, it almost certainly popularised it 19:23 fiq: it does for things like entering minetown though 19:24 apparently in D&D, green ime is vulnerable to fire, cold, cure disease and light 19:24 I'm surprised NetHack inherited everything but the cold cure 19:24 maybe to make it harder to cure? 19:24 I didn't know it was vulnerable to cold 19:25 D&D has a bunch of slimes and oozes which have similar mechanics, but typically different ways to get rid of them 19:29 ais523: this is what made me bring up luck earlier btw 19:29 [3:12 PM] greqrg: Rather than reverting to the zero, my understanding has always been that negative luck and positive luck are tracked independently, so if you get a negative luck modifier but still have net positive luck, the blessed luckstone will still allow the negative luck to go away and your luck will improve again 19:29 I am apparently not alone 19:29 I wonder why this is 19:30 maybe the enlightenment message should be changed, not sure where the misunderstanding comes from 19:30 *not sure if that's where the 19:31 fiq: wait, how does that work the negative luck timeout go? 19:31 does it only time out at all if it's under 0? 19:32 wait wait wait rikersan no no 19:33 please do not learn from this message 19:33 it is wrong 19:33 I was giving it to say "I thought luck worked like this too at first, identically. I am wondering if there is a bad wording in a message somewhere that causes this misunderstanding?" 19:34 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 19:34 fiq: lol 19:34 I thought it worked as negative and positive bonuses 19:34 and they stacked for calculating, but were stored separately 19:34 and the negative one timed out w/ blessed luckstone, and neither did for uncursed 19:37 ...so yes, as I was saying 19:37 I am not alone with this misunderstanding 19:43 rikersan: http://sprunge.us/JPMh 19:44 it's the "bad times out" part I didn't understand 19:44 to clarify: if your luck is greater than 0, and you have a cursed luckstone, it will time out 19:44 if your luck is less than 0 and you have a cursed one, it will *not* time out 19:44 if it is >0 and you have a blessed one, it will not time out, but with the same blessed one it will time out if <0 19:44 right? 19:50 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:51 http://sprunge.us/JAYU 19:52 typo, see http://sprunge.us/WhjH instead 20:01 hi 20:01 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 20:01 * K2 pets beholder 20:02 Hi K2 and welcome to #hardfought. Enjoy your stay! 20:03 \o/ 20:03 Be careful with the System Administrator, you don't want to piss him off 20:03 FIQbot 20:03 i heard the sysadmin is a teddy bear 20:03 bundlebundlebundle 20:03 Appearances can fool 20:04 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 961 points, T:1623, killed by a monster (dangerous vampire bat) 20:04 not a vampire bat 20:04 but a DANGEROUS vampire bat! 20:09 dtype: perhaps update nao with newest 361 20:09 for statuscolors stuff 20:10 FIQ: I thought paxed had already 20:11 Unix NetHack Beta Version 3.6.1-0 - last build Thu Oct 20 19:03:23 2016. 20:11 No 20:12 also, I had a feeling it was outdated, but not that outdated 20:14 the news on nao says it was updated 20:15 but it looks like it is not 20:15 You call this updated? 20:24 -!- Tarmunora__ has joined #hardfought 20:24 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has joined #hardfought 20:27 -!- Tarmunora_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:27 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:28 finally finished reading ais523's proposal and writing comments. now to read the last 16 hours of backscroll :D 20:28 aosdict: where did you write the comments? 20:29 I should at least add WIP drafts of the missing parts in my own overhaul so I can read ais523's proposal without feeling influenced by it 20:30 I accidentally left part of the game out completely in my overhaul :-( 20:30 -!- Jendic has joined #hardfought 20:30 I wrote about my proposals for changes to pre-Gehennom stuff, lack proposals for Gehennom (I have plans, just haven't writtne it out) and general thoughts on things 20:31 pre-Gehennom, I have mostly just minor suggestions for improvements, I think the earliergame works rather well in terms of dungeon design with a few exceptions, both general and some specific places 20:32 the reason I haven't started writing what I want to do with gehennom.. I want to change it a lot 20:32 I think it's pretty much universal that people want more changes below the Castle than above 20:32 tbf I find current Gehennom *bad* 20:33 although how that manifests varies from person to person; I changed a lot above and even more below 20:33 whereas some people change hardly anything above and a moderate amount below 20:34 still, I'll look forward to it 20:34 there are some changes I've suggested re@upper parts that is already a thing in fiqhack or otherwise 20:34 but most of it isn't anywhere 20:35 FIQ: paxed has been maintaining that. He might be up for updating. 20:35 according to motd it is "updated" 20:35 but I'm not seeing it? 20:39 FIQ: do you have an existing save file? on some dgl servers that delays/blocks an update 20:39 I do 20:39 not on NAO AFAIR, but that might have changed due to development speeding up 20:39 I guess you could check on a new account 20:39 I don't see why this should be a problem... If it is, I would declare this a bug 20:39 Or just kill the save 20:39 It's on dlvl2 20:40 in that case just go ahead and start fountain-quaffing 20:40 Yes, that did the trick 20:40 Jendic: but then I might get a wish. 20:40 .. 20:41 Jendic: At one point I was testing the nitrohack save system to see how well it worked. I got a wand of wishing on dlvl3ish 20:41 I went on to ascend that game 20:42 I guess it made for a nice nitrohack test save :) 20:43 wish I had your luck 20:44 but I'll settle for being able to clear sokoban semi-reliably 20:46 ais523: hm, the nitrohack engine actually tracks save commands 20:47 that's odd 20:47 oh wait it was quit commands you had a hard time with 20:47 FIQ: that's a side effect of the fact that save commands are tracked 20:47 the save/quit codepaths in general are really bizarre 20:47 actually maybe it isn't 20:47 now I'm confused 20:48 ignore me, I'm tired and should probably stop IRCing 20:49 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 20:50 on action 6440 in dlvl9, I picked up an ebony wand 20:50 shortly after, on action 6475, I identified it as a wand of wishing 20:50 and wished for charging 20:51 which was apparently useless because I already knew the appearance 20:51 but typod and got destroy armor and then wished for sdsm and put it on and then found it was dead and went to charge and lost the sdsm 20:51 or that less dramatic story 20:51 lol 20:51 haha 21:14 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 21:14 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 21:17 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:28 FIQ: [3 hours ago] you should definitely tick down luck when a monster dies. Clearly, they weren't lucky enough to survive. 21:29 !tell ais523 comments are living on a text file on my laptop at the moment, but I'm planning to put it on the wiki. Want me to wikify your proposal and put it under User:Ais523? It'd be nice for me to have it to link to 21:29 Will do, aosdict! 21:32 -!- Grassy is now known as Grasshopper 21:40 -!- CharlesBrown has joined #hardfought 21:54 -!- CharlesBrown has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:55 !tell ais523 The concept of green slime in general is clearly older than D&D, though I don't doubt that some of the specific details of how they work in NetHack may come from D&D. 21:55 Will do, jonadab! 21:58 -!- CharlesBrown has joined #hardfought 22:16 [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Mal Law), 3612 points, T:5334, killed by a hill orc 22:26 !booze 22:26 * Beholder delivers K2 a shot of the sauce, brewed by the /dev/null/oracle at -11 degrees Celsius. 22:26 perfect 22:41 [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law), 706 points, T:1305, killed by a small mimic 22:45 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 11659 points, T:4249, killed by a flint stone 22:46 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 22:46 RNG send Felix to kill me 22:47 jonadab: that reminds me, I should post my comments on your proposal to the wiki as well 22:47 yuring: next time, try to get killed by a flint stone named Fred 22:54 lol 22:55 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Cha), 15833 points, T:12505, killed by a gnome mummy 23:00 [fh] Malkron (Arc Dwa Mal Law), 13985 points, T:594, quit 23:08 -!- CharlesBrown has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 606 points, T:634, killed by a monster (ribbon fish) 23:18 water bolt spell is too powerful 23:19 lv 1 spell but like create pool 23:21 aosdict: Yes, I should incorporate your feedback when doing my updates, too. 23:22 jonadab, did you find my nice patch idea about resolutions? 23:22 EPI: a trap that toggles whether or not you need to say "please" when you make a wish. Otherwise, it says "Not granted, insufficient/excessive politeness" 23:22 like intercal 23:23 jonadab: oh, I thought all your edits so far were mostly just formatting stuff 23:24 -!- CharlesBrown has joined #hardfought 23:26 aosdict: The edits reflect in the draft are formatting stuff. 23:26 aosdict: I'm using my Scratchpad to work on the next revision. 23:26 The First Draft page won't change. 23:27 When the Second Draft is ready, it'll get its own page. 23:28 right, I wasn't aware real edits were being made in the scratchpad 23:29 Yeah. 23:29 I like the stability of the first draft page... means I can link to it 23:29 Right. 23:30 Because of the nature of the "Everyone do proposals" idea, I think it's useful to be able to cite a particular version of a proposal. 23:30 Working draft of next version is on scratchpad here: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Jonadab/Scratchpad 23:30 That version is nowhere near stable yet. 23:31 In fact, I've barely _started_ my edits to that one, really. 23:32 Of course.