00:06 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 135 points, T:348, killed by a monster (spammer mummy) 00:16 SporkHack updated 00:20 -!- Tarmunora_ has joined #hardfought 00:24 -!- bhaak_ has joined #hardfought 00:25 -!- Mandevil_ has joined #hardfought 00:25 -!- Announcy_ has joined #hardfought 00:25 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Announcy_] by ChanServ 00:25 -!- Announcy has quit [Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 00:25 -!- Announcy_ is now known as Announcy 00:29 -!- Tarmunora has quit [*.net *.split] 00:29 -!- Mandevil has quit [*.net *.split] 00:29 -!- bhaak has quit [*.net *.split] 00:33 -!- Tarmunora_ has left #hardfought 00:33 -!- Tarmunora_ has joined #hardfought 01:22 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 01:23 -!- stenno is now known as Guest97255 01:26 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 01:38 what is evil armor 01:43 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 02:04 yuring: ah you asked what "evil armor" is right before I came here; I guess it's evil leather armor/plate mail? those have a lot of AC but also autocurse when worn and cause some nasty side effect, which is randomized per game 02:06 ais523: is NWN your favorite game? 02:06 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:07 apparently not 02:10 jonadab: cancel in slash'em works somewhat similar to grunt, but in slash'em, MR protects against it 02:19 my kid being attacked by a beholder - https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22046939_10155148061197893_3666851153835087785_n.jpg?oh=d653e6caacc77d5955490d74ee8720d4&oe=5A82C83A 02:19 Awwww *-* 02:20 So. How do I connect to this thing again? 02:20 heh 02:20 ssh nethack@hardfought.org 02:21 K2: I notice a suspicious lack of blindfolds 02:21 but cute :P 02:21 she needed a bad guy 'stuffy' 02:21 adventures arent as fun without conflict 02:21 (or stories) 02:21 https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21766491_10155148061067893_6950652873276949932_n.jpg?oh=bdf51faf1f67800c671f4ba3f8933889&oe=5A3D20B6 02:22 ^^ magic fairy princesses did battle with beholder 02:22 they lost 02:23 ouch 02:23 i explained to her what the different eye stalks do 02:24 as soon as she can read fairly well, we're gonna play some D&D 02:25 nice :P 02:25 :) 02:25 you should introduce her to nethack then too, ensure she can ascend realibly by 7 02:26 or bust 02:26 she's been watching my play since she was 3, so she knows roundabout what nethack is 02:26 she knows D is dragon 02:26 and so on 02:26 K2: will you introduce your cute daughter to slex too? also, I'd like to greet her with a *bundlebundlebundle*, can you tell her that from me? ;) 02:26 lol 02:27 1) no 2) sure 02:27 :P 02:27 "daddy what does bundlebundlebundle mean?" 02:27 it means run away and dont look back 02:28 hah 02:28 If a stranger offers you variants. Run away. 02:28 hahahah 02:28 "eyy kid, wanna try some variants" 02:28 i got some grunthack here in my van 02:28 "this one has hundreds of races" 02:28 eww 02:28 ugh 02:29 i'll introduce her to vanilla first, then we'll graduate up to variants 02:30 unnethack would be a good first variant actually 02:30 K2: NH4 is arguably easier than NH3 for newcomers, due to better UI 02:30 At least that's what people tell me :P 02:30 ;) 02:30 if I had a cute daughter, the first variant I'd introduce her to would be slex of course :D jumping in at the deep end is fun! 02:30 Omg I forgot how to nethack 02:30 noooooooooooooo 02:30 Khor: you are the @ 02:30 you move with the number pad or hjklyubn 02:31 the d/f/p next to you is your pet 02:31 don't kill it 02:31 kill it 02:31 *u 02:31 Khor: if you see F, walk into it to kill it easily 02:31 if you see an x, move diagonally so it can't hit you 02:31 if you see a :, you better run 02:32 how to play nethack: F-attack that white-background monster in the starting room until you hear the studio audience applaud. Eat any c corpses you find. Put away wands of teleportation when the giant eels show up. And reverse genocide arch-liches ASAP. There, ascension is guaranteed! :D 02:33 (actually, I think I sound like the hint from Plants versus Zombies: "When the Zombies show up, just sit there and don't do anything. You win the game when the Zombies get to your houze." :D) 02:35 * K2 is watching Khor play 02:35 Pls no 02:35 he already has the amulet 02:35 ok not watching 02:35 * LarienTelrunya is watching Yuring :D 02:36 !whereis 02:36 LarienTelrunya: Yuring [slex] Khor [fh] 02:36 Khor: You know about the fact that NH4 variants make actual use of excess terminal space, right? 02:36 wtf, why is Raisse's game not displayed? 02:36 Just double-checking 02:36 !whereis 02:36 LarienTelrunya: Yuring [slex] Khor [fh] 02:36 LarienTelrunya: beholder does not track the devnull port (yet) 02:36 LarienTelrunya: devnull variants don't show 02:36 Khor: So you get stuff like inventory sidebar, etc 02:37 FIQ: No that's cool 02:37 wait, "dn36" is a devnull variant? I thought that was dnethack 3.6 or something 02:37 In fact, I ported stuff like this to the NH3 curses interface a while back 02:37 Because lack of sidebar is annoying 02:37 So I can play dnethack with sidebar too :) 02:37 LarienTelrunya: no its the devnull port 02:37 dn36 = /dev/null 3.6.0 02:37 ah, I see 02:38 its up for play testing 02:38 Ranged searching? 02:38 need to make sure all the challenges work, etc 02:38 Khor: Yes 02:38 Also much more realible 02:38 Searching is annoying in vanilla 02:38 Tell me about it 02:39 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Riders#Getting_rid_of_Riders_permanently LarienTelrunya that good monster can't summon a demon lord when you steal his wand of wishing if there's nowhere to summon it 02:39 FIQ made searching so OP in FIQhack, might as well make everything visible and unhidden 02:39 it's not that OP 02:39 bug_sniper: heh :D 02:39 Sounds good to me K2 02:39 heh 02:40 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Search#FIQhack 02:40 Playing a convict made me hate searching to death 02:42 ok gotta crash for real this time 02:42 gnite all 02:42 !whereis Khor 02:42 FIQ: Khor [fh]: No details available 02:43 aw 02:43 'nightk2 02:43 night K2 02:44 Khor: You know about the Pw regen buffs in fiqhack? 02:45 No but I don't have any spells anyway 02:45 Also, Priests get a boost to marker writing unknown stuff (wizards no longer do) 02:45 Doesn't Priests start with a book? 02:45 Apparently yes 02:45 [fh] Tiritas (Khor) (Pri Elf Mal Cha), 13459 points, T:469, killed by a gnomish wizard's force bolt 02:46 Spellcasters in fiqhack is more dangerous 02:46 Respect them 02:46 Or they will do that 02:46 That corridor with a wizard spamming force bolt was kind of... 02:46 :/ 02:46 -!- Guest97255 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:47 Khor: You know how earlygame spellcasters in vanilla/not-fiqhack are absolute pushovers? 02:47 Not anymore 02:47 But they're still slow 02:47 Which can be exploited 02:49 I see 02:50 Pellbook disappears? 02:50 Yes 02:50 But you get a much longer spellbook memory 02:50 It was done to reduce tedium in spellbook micromanagement 02:50 They will last for 60k turns 02:50 instead of 20k 02:50 To reduce that. Remove spells running out 02:50 :v 02:51 Also if you get crowned, you get your role's special spell for free, forever 02:52 Khor: Do you know about spell maintenance in fiqhack? 02:53 You might already do, it was one of the first thing I added 02:53 You might find it useful for the protection spell 02:54 Apparently I can't 02:54 Also. If you prefer the look of the NH3 status display, you can enable classic_status. Likewise for show_ac if you prefer AC over Def 02:54 :P 02:54 You can if you let pw recover a bit 02:54 Protection maintenance starts by spamming it 02:54 until your protection is maxed out 02:54 My PW was at max tho 02:55 Yeah, but 02:55 Wait for it to recover 02:55 Then try again 02:55 It should be maintained once your def is capped out 02:56 Maintenance is also the only way that has made it to other variants that originated in fiqhack (it's also in dnethack) 03:05 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Spell_maintenance for details 03:07 FIQ: wtf, it doesn't drain nutrition??? 03:08 LarienTelrunya: This was done in order to minimize tedium and remove reasons a player might not want to do it 03:09 I might change this depending on people's experience with it in dNetHack 03:10 This game really wants me to jump 03:10 It will start playing van Halen anytime now 03:11 How do I see what spells I'm maintaining? 03:11 Try + 03:12 Hmm 03:12 Interesting, it doesn't show 03:12 I'll look into fixing that 03:12 Seriously? No one ever asked that before? 03:12 Nope :P 03:13 But I can see the merit for it 03:13 Oh gosh 03:13 Khor: What mark would make sense for it? 03:13 * is forgotten, # is aliased 03:13 Can you make it so that pets only have to be close to go downstairs? Not adjacent 03:13 Yes 03:14 The reason I haven't is to make it easier to abandon them 03:14 if you want to 03:14 Make a command for it that turns the pet into a normal non agresive Monster? 03:14 FIQ: take a look at slex's petkeeping skill, it gives a yes/no prompt if a pet is a few spaces away from the stair and allows you to decide whether you take it along :) 03:14 meh 03:15 Having to answer that every stair sounds annoying. 03:15 Yes 03:15 It does 03:15 the alternative is to always take them along, or never :D 03:16 and the "always" method definitely makes it annoying to dump a useless low-level pet 03:16 FIQ: What about ^ ? 03:16 Because it looks like the graph for the protection maintained 03:16 First you cast it. So your protection goes / 03:16 And then it runs out so it goes \ 03:17 And the maintenance kicks in again 03:20 Khor: I added a symbol for maintained spells 03:20 Nice 03:20 It will be included the next time K2 updates 03:20 !tell K2 updated fiqhack 03:20 Will do, FIQ! 03:21 I still can't believe no one else asked about that. 03:21 Khor: anyway I made it ! 03:21 nothing uses ! 03:21 Potions? 03:21 nothing uses ! in spell list 03:22 As far as I have a way of knowing I don't give a bleep 03:26 Ehrmagherd 03:26 Is this heaven 03:27 Sadly it's just an armor shop 03:27 Careful with mimics 03:28 Use drum? 03:29 Or just Elbereth if you prefer that 03:29 I didn't know I had that lol 03:31 Why not wear-test the stuff? You're a priest 03:31 Well, except for the expensive helmet 03:32 Could try the helmet too since priests have holy water 03:32 Wat 03:32 ? 03:32 Why does changing my boots affect my weight 03:32 :| 03:32 because the boots are levitation boots? 03:32 Worn armor encumber less 03:34 Khor: btw 03:34 in fiqhack 03:34 displacement is MC3 03:34 and magic reesistance MC2 03:34 thought you'd want to knwo 03:35 *know 03:37 I don't really remember anything 03:37 And worn armor encumbering less actually makes sense 03:37 I don't even remember how to wear identify 03:38 But this boots do notjing 03:41 then they might be WW boots? 03:41 What is WW? 03:41 water walking 03:41 Oh. There's water walking boots? 03:42 I forgot about that. 03:42 XD 03:42 in vanilla there are, I don't know what variant you are playing and if that has them as well 03:42 Probably 03:42 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 03:42 Maybe kicking? 03:42 That was a thing right? 03:42 are they cheap or expensive? 03:42 Cheap 03:42 -!- stenno is now known as Guest52905 03:42 do they increase spell failure? 03:42 Like 10gp 03:42 did you try to jump? 03:42 Added a weight-o-meter and slot counter to inventory when doing 'i' too 03:43 So you will benefit even when not having a sidebar 03:43 then they're not WW (unless that's different in your variant) 03:43 Referring to Inventory: 214/600wt (8/52 slots) 03:43 Yes 03:43 do they go "scritch scritch" when you rub them on a touchstone? 03:43 They increase 03:43 LarienTelrunya: jumping self identifies here 03:43 raisse: WW is 50zm 03:43 In vanilla too 03:43 if they increase spell failure they're kicking, because those are metal 03:43 So they are kicking I guess 03:44 Yeah if they increase spell failure rate they're kicking 03:44 FIQ: I was going to say "I know that" but I know it only for vanilla :-) 03:44 oh, I'm used to pressing j to test for jumping 03:44 They're the only metal boots 03:44 apart from dwarven iron shoes of course 03:44 LarienTelrunya: My legs feel longer 03:44 ah, I see 03:44 I feel like I'm cheating 03:45 raisse: Oh, true 03:45 I already have 20 armor. Helm of brilliance and gop 03:45 But you can figure these out by description 03:45 why? how is it cheating to know things? 03:45 it's not as if that information is secret 03:45 I think Khor is referring to RNG being in a good mood 03:46 he's on dlvl3 03:46 Yes. What FIQ said. 03:47 How does failure rate affect maintenance of spell? 03:47 Khor: Next time K2 updates, you will be able to see weight and slot info in the main inventory window 03:47 -!- Guest52905 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48 like this http://home.fiq.se/invmeter.png 03:49 That looks sweet 03:49 I always found it weird that it wasn't a thing 03:49 You can already do this with sidebar 03:49 But your window is too small for one 03:50 Well I'm playing at work 03:50 I'm not gonna go full screen on it 03:50 Heh 03:50 Oh 03:50 Protection is only 1 armor better than robe? 03:50 Pfft. Screw the cape 03:52 remember to be careful with gnomish wizards 03:53 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 11031 points, T:4118, killed by a monster (veil spirit) 03:53 Can they even hit me with 19 def? 03:53 yes 03:53 well 03:53 they'll generally miss 03:53 but still 03:55 Khor: remember that you have a drum 03:55 But I'm full hp D: 03:56 yeah, just saying 03:56 I generally wouldn't like being surrounded with 36 max HP 03:57 Low AC is basically invincibility early on 03:57 Or was at least 03:57 Can I hit floating eyes in here? 03:57 Or will they paralyze me 03:57 It will slow you down 03:58 But not paralyze 03:58 Permanently? 03:58 No 03:58 but for similar turns as vanilla paralysis 03:58 so can be 127 turns 04:03 Found a helmet enchanted of Poland 04:04 heh, that increases the success chance of the #borrow command which no one ever uses anyway 04:04 o 04:04 why? 04:04 what that command does is it tries to steal money of a monster, but if the monster has no money it doesn't do anything, and if it fails, the monster will get angry 04:05 what is the success ratio? 04:05 LarienTelrunya: ADOM has pickpocket skill 04:05 it generates items from thin air that monsters wouldn't neccessarily have dropped on death 04:05 not sure what you'd steal gold from but not want to kill 04:06 shopkeepers 04:06 aside from maybe flashing monsters or high-ac monsters 04:06 FIQ: playersteal() in cmd.c; the formula is complicated 04:06 no, you want to kill shopkeepers and you don't want to steal gold from them 04:06 but services 04:07 you don't get services if they are angry 04:07 but you can pacify them! 04:07 steal all their gold 04:07 pay back 1k to pacify 04:07 also, if the #borrow action is successful, it counts as "the monster didn't notice the theft and thus doesn't get angry" 04:08 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Borrow 04:08 Why is it called borrow when you are clearly stealing. Not borrowing 04:09 why is it not called pickpocketing 04:09 YANI: shop generation chance increases for each level generated without a shop, and goes down when one is generated 04:09 also why is it not a #technique 04:10 not sure, the #borrow command is from regular slashem 04:10 and it's IMHO not very well designed, especially since failure will anger the monster and the failure rates are so high 04:10 and it wasn't worth fixing? 04:11 also, stealing gold from hostile monsters is IMHO useless, I'd much rather kill them outright 04:11 the only NPCs for whom it's worthwile are priests and shopkeepers 04:13 it would be useful if steal items 04:13 yeah, but sadly it only steals money 04:15 would be nice if I could borrow the shopkeeper's shotgun 04:15 I really need a rl food ration 04:15 or orcus's wand of death 04:16 "borrow" 04:16 "Hey Orcus, I need to kill Rodney real quick! You'll get your wand back once I zapped him to death!" 04:16 over his dead body, he can have it back 04:22 I forgot so much about this game t.t 04:23 D a dragon (Half-dragon knight called rikerw, mounted on your large pseudodragon zombie)--More-- 04:23 since when does dnethack have monster mounts? 04:24 hasn't D always been rideable? 04:24 or does it matter that it's a zombie? 04:24 *monster* mounts 04:25 er 04:25 I mean 04:25 monsters riding stuff 04:25 knights aren't monsters, half-dragon is a player race 04:25 hm 04:25 oh right, this is probably not bones 04:26 "I threw a rock troll corpse into lava. The game said it burnt. Several turns later the troll rose up in the lava and then burned to a crisp again. Functionally it does not change the game much but it is still a bug. 05:55, 19 September 2017 (UTC)" 04:26 hm this was reported as a dnethack bug 04:26 but I think 3.6.x caught that too lol 04:27 those monsters riding other monsters might not happen in slex unless it makes monsters distinguise and decide what they like riding 04:27 -!- bhaak_ is now known as bhaak 04:27 LarienTelrunya, are you still working on making domestic house-flies? 04:28 in slex, I've thrown trolls into lava. they recover, stand there in the lava, pick up what you left for them in the lava, wield it, and attack from inside the lava 04:28 bug_sniper: oh, right, they should be added one day 04:29 about the troll in lava thing: it's intentional :D 04:31 YASI: horseflies, tiny ridable flying pets 04:31 also: bug_sniper, try the inofficial slex challenge, it's fun! *bundlebundlebundle* 04:32 you have enough people to watch right now already 04:33 wait, where did yuring and that slashem.me person go? 04:34 they're not playing anymore :( 04:35 have you seen the let's fail slashem extended series on youtube? 04:36 it was on a 3 year old version though that wasn't very different from slashem 04:36 heh, yeah, those were the humble beginnings of slex 04:37 back then the bottom status line still said "Chaotic" instead of "PalLycMalCha"! 04:42 I was wondering something, is it easier to learn german or english? 04:43 german is a very difficult language, with many exceptions, and also exceptions to the exceptions :P 04:43 so I'd say english is much easier (it also has much easier grammar) 04:44 but I guess you want to ask someone for whom neither of them is their native language ;) 04:45 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 04:45 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45 -!- elenmirie_ is now known as elenmirie 04:45 I see, thanks for the answer 04:45 I know of another person who would agree with you on that 04:50 -!- AndChat|167316 has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:25 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 05:25 -!- stenno is now known as Guest10141 05:29 -!- Guest10141 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:49 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:54 !tell ais523 So there is 3 relevant fields to keep track on if an occupation is going on or not. There is flags.occupation that tracks what exactly you are doing. There is flags.interrupted for when you are interrupted in whatever you are doing. There is flags.incomplete to mark that there is an active occupation. Why is there 3 fields instead of just 1? Can't you just make it so that if you are 05:54 Will do, FIQ! 05:54 interrupted, flags.occupation is zeroed? You can use the timers to see if an occupation is active. 05:54 !tell ais523 interrupted, flags.occupation is zeroed? You can use the timers to see if an occupation is active. 05:54 Will do, FIQ! 06:00 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 06:00 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 06:11 fIQ: wasn't l for looting? 06:11 I think that's how I opened boxes and such 06:12 in numpad maybe 06:12 try a, 06:12 apply on floor 06:12 or alt+l 06:12 Oh I have to change an option 06:13 or mass-rebind the vikeys to the "numpad" commands 06:13 options -> interface options -> keymap 06:14 Yay 06:14 Ty 06:14 np 06:15 Why is this empty box trapped. 06:15 ;-; 06:15 RNG felt like it 06:18 Wat 06:18 I instantly died 06:18 [fh] Tiritas (Khor) (Pri Elf Mal Cha), 34903 points, T:2520, burned by a gnomish wizard's fireball 06:18 From full hp to dead by something on the other side of the lvl 06:18 GG 06:20 !lastgame Khor 06:20 FIQ: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/K/Khor/fiqhack/dumplog/2017-09-27%2010%3A18%3A23%2C%20Tiritas-Pri-Elf-Mal-Cha%2C%20died.txt 06:20 Khor: not other side of the level 06:20 but the G diagonally upwards from you 06:21 spellcasters in gameoverhack will instakill you, happened to me in 2016's junethack too 06:22 "The kobold shaman casts a spell! The sleep ray hits you! (x38) The fireball hits you! You die." 06:22 yes, sure, go on and spew your bullshit over a year after I fix issues stemming from vanilla :) 06:23 the sleep spell is only one way they can instakill you, fireball is another :P 06:23 a kobold shaman's max level is 3 06:23 he can't even cast fireball 06:23 what about the gnomish wizard? what's the max level of that? 06:23 unless elevated with wraths 06:23 they can reach level 4 06:24 or 5 06:24 so "maximum monster level = maximum spell level"? meaning that a level 7 spellcaster can get finger of death? 06:24 Well this death was pretty bullshit tbh... 06:24 that said 06:24 I didn't realize they could cast fireball 06:24 (or cone ofc old) 06:24 *cone of cold 06:25 being generated with the spell would be *rare*, but that is no excuse 06:25 I will investigate their fireball fail% 06:25 I guess I have to not pick potions before I have a bag 06:26 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 06:26 -!- stenno is now known as Guest70329 06:27 interesting luck you have there, Khor 06:27 Don't you know me already? 06:27 :P 06:28 http://home.fiq.se/fireball.png 06:28 I tested 06:28 First, they have to generate with the spell 06:28 This is uh, hold on 06:29 what's the damage range if they cast it? 06:29 I think fireball always does 6d6 06:29 If they blow all your potions... A lot. :P 06:29 anyway 06:30 a gnomish wizard at their general level of 3-4 06:30 gets 13-14 shots at being assigned spells 06:30 then they have to get fireball 06:30 let's see the fireball generation rate 06:31 1% of all spells are fireball 06:31 ok they have a 12% shot at getting fireball 06:31 then they need to decide to cast it 06:31 rather than, say, force bolt 06:31 which is 50% 06:32 -!- Guest70329 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:32 and they need to regard it as castable 06:32 which also uses the fail rate 06:32 25% 06:32 in this case pasted above 06:32 and then they need to not fail to cast the spell 06:32 25%, again 06:32 So yeah 06:32 Khor: There's your luck :P 06:32 and then it's all over because your beginning char doesn't have enough HP to survive even one shot from it 06:32 Generally at the point you meet gnomish wizards, you do 06:33 Just that for whatever reason, Khor's max HP was awful 06:33 I'm an elf 06:33 36 at XL6 is *bad* 06:33 I think my hp is supposed to be awful 06:33 Like 06:33 It's at the point where praying for low HP 06:33 would increase it 06:33 the max HP that is 06:33 And that only happens if your HP is terrible 06:34 It's the 'K' favtor 06:34 Factor* 06:34 Khor: oh, and you have to get unlucky with damage rolls and destruction too 06:34 6d6 means 36 at most, but the chance for that is rather low 06:35 (it's 0.002%) 06:36 Khor: oh, and the attack has to not miss 06:37 Khor: So yes. It was bad luck 06:37 That said, I should probably increase spellcaster difficulty a bit 06:37 I think it hit my cat before me 06:38 Explosions always do that 06:38 Just in case the player dies 06:38 So it can resolve the explosion otherwise completely 06:39 edge case: what if it's a soldier with a skilled wand of lightning, the explosion hits you, and there's a pet standing behind you whose wand of teleportation explodes? Will it teleport you out of the explosion range before it actually checks you being hit by it? 06:39 Wand explosions by lightning doesn't have their normal effect outside SLASH'EM + friends 06:40 oh, I always forget that 06:40 That said, it would be a bit weird 06:40 It would teleport you 06:40 LarienTelrunya: It sounds like a joke that you called fiqhack gameoverhack tbh. 06:40 But the game has already figured that you would be hit 06:40 So if you die 06:40 As if slex had any kind of balance. 06:40 Your inventory ends up in the new location 06:41 Khor: just because you fail to see the balance doesn't mean that it's not there, plus it has evolved a lot since you last played it 06:41 (In SLASH'EM+friends, that is, where explosions do have their normal effect) 06:42 Yeah. I'm sure it's only me having issues finding the balance in there. 06:43 well, I don't define "balance" as "the player must always be able to win the game with perfect play" 06:43 Imo that should be always possible. 06:43 If you start a game where it might be randomly decided that you cannot win it, that's terrible game design. 06:44 it's not randomly decided at the start of the game, it's just that sometimes the RNG screws you over mid-game 06:44 YAAD should be minimized 06:45 YAAD is just frustrating 06:45 Idk what to play 06:45 Did you change any role? 06:47 Not in major ways 06:47 But I changed several im subtle ways 06:47 Wizard energy regen is faster and they have a new starting inventory 06:47 Tourists get a lot more tools and auto-ID shop content 06:48 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 06:48 Priests have an easier time writing unknown scrolls and spells, and their quest artifact allows praying inside Gehennom if worn 06:48 Turn undead helplessness scales on level, this affects Knight and Priest. In addition to the previous buff to Mitre, this means Priests can now use turn undead realbly in Gehennom 06:49 Magic markers was removed from everyone's starting inventory except for Tourist, where it is now guranteed. Also, Monks get one as crowning gift. 06:49 I don't even know what turn undead does 06:50 Archeologists get a searching bonus, meaning they have an even easier time searching 06:50 turn undead works in gehennom?! 06:50 Khor: It frightens, and in some cases, instadestroy, undead 06:50 LarienTelrunya: Mitre allows prayer inside Gehennom in FIQhack. This includes turn undead 06:51 oh, I guess that makes it rather useful 06:51 Khor: Also, various convenience features help some roles more than others 06:51 Wizards benefit majorly from spell maintenance and spell quivering/aliasing 06:51 Rangers benefit majorly from autoswap 06:52 Have you considered adding roles/races like dnh or drastically changing existing ones to make them more different? 06:52 Non-gnomes/dwarves benefit from a more consistent Mines lightning -- upper mines is always bright, lower always dark, in FIQhack 06:52 Khor: I have considered adding bards 06:52 What is autoswap? 06:52 as an ally role where you accompany other player monsters 06:52 and you buff them in combat 06:52 with music 06:52 Incantifiers where so cooñ tbh 06:52 Cool* 06:53 Khor: Autoswap means you will automatically swap to a ranged weapon when using fire/throw 06:53 And to a melee weapon when whacking in melee combat 06:55 Khor: Spellcaster difficulty rating was already buffed 06:55 apparently 06:56 Allthough the Gnomish Mines tend to summon Gs in general 06:56 which can include things "out of depth" 06:56 (see: minesflayers) 06:57 Khor: the last batch of balance tweaks in dnethack made incants too OP I think 06:59 Inqs always were :P 07:10 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:31 !tell ais523 Easiest way to rebase onto fiqhack minus its featurelist would probably be to just go from fiqhack, look at the changelog at https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/FIQhack (it might not have everything, but should have everything that matters) and undo whatever changes are deemed dubious 07:31 Will do, FIQ! 07:37 [from backscroll] FIQ: I think always taking a nearby pet downstairs is fine, since I don't think there are that many arguments for abandoning it. If you simply don't care about the pet, why care about whether it comes down with you? 07:38 [backscroll] FIQ: hmm, inventory weight counter is probably a thing that I want to add, can't really see why the player shouldn't know weights, it's not really a spoiler problem 07:38 !tell LarienTelrunya so German has lots of exceptions and then lots of exceptions to those exceptions? Sounds a lot like nethack 07:38 Will do, aosdict! 07:38 aosdict: In NH4 variants, you can already see weight of things. Adding a meter to it was something I did a while back to the sidebar 07:38 I realized, when watching Khor play, that having it on the main inventory window would also be convenient 07:39 Oh lol 07:43 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 07:43 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 07:48 aosdict: Very strong (and potentially dangerous) pets 07:48 Like an arch-lich 07:51 but how is an arch-lich staying on your level a problem? 07:51 It killing tuff 07:51 *stuff 07:52 wait, do arch-liches eventually go hungry and hostile when you're on the same level? 07:52 No 07:52 It can block your path 07:52 And be in the way with ranged attacks 07:53 * FIQ pokes K2 07:53 I feel like if you REALLY want to ditch a pet, you can just find a room to shut it in. 07:53 Don't Liches teleport? 07:53 They do 07:54 But not covetous warp. 07:54 I still remember when I locked a god on one of the castle towers :P 07:54 They do 07:55 Khor: reminds me of https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Comments#Illuminating 07:55 I thought you got rid of covetous warping as it exists in vanilla. 07:56 aosdict: I haven't messed with covetous AI yet 07:56 It is broken anyway 07:56 In both fiqhack and NH4 07:56 But in completely different ways 07:56 -!- Mandevil_ is now known as Mandevil 07:58 ? 08:00 Khor: in nethack, covetous monsters have a tendency to not care for things they covet, and will only warp sometimes, very sporadically 08:00 in fiqhack, they will randomly awake from their slumber too early 08:01 and peaceful monsters will warp all over the place 08:01 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01 *in nethack4 08:01 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 08:01 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 08:10 FIQ: oh by the way, do you own fiq.se? any chance of making it HTTPS? 08:11 I own fiq.se, yes 08:11 The major reason it isn't https is that fiq.se hosts nothing of value 08:12 it's just an apache default install atm 08:12 home.fiq.se does have stuff since I use it as a place to throw up screenshots/etc, and some other things 08:12 and it has https 08:13 hm 08:13 actually it seems to be the other way around 08:13 let me see if I can address that 08:13 404 08:14 outdated system 08:14 will od a system update and look into it later 08:14 neat 08:14 when at home 08:15 yeah I was just getting a bit tired of having to turn off https everywhere when you post a screenshot or something 08:15 how about sprunge.us? not sure if that uses https 08:15 I do use sprunge.us 08:16 for text pastes 08:16 not for imagse 08:16 however it lacks a https redirect 08:16 in fact 08:16 it doesn't work 08:16 on https 08:16 I will see if I can make my own sprunge setup once I have https later 08:16 should be simple 08:18 aosdict: "turn off https everywhere"? 08:18 jonadab: presumably https everywhere is an option in some browser 08:18 Can't you just, like, leave https enabled for sites that use it? 08:18 or some kind of add-on 08:18 that enforces https 08:18 and will refuse to connect to http 08:19 ... that would make the browser not work with a LOT of websites. 08:19 aosdict: wouldn't a better option be to make it give a warning if it can't http? 08:19 that you can manually dismiss on a per-case basis 08:19 er 08:19 *if it can't https 08:20 I will setup https on my desktop either way 08:20 but yeah 08:20 FIQ: it does allow you to try https and defer to http if unavailable 08:20 Ah 08:20 But then you shouldn't need to disable https everywhere? 08:21 Just... dismiss that error for that one case 08:21 however, it's not great to disable it, since it then applies to all tabs 08:21 Etc 08:21 Uh 08:21 That's dumb 08:21 and then any ajax requests happening in the background or whatever will remain http 08:22 so by default, you browse in the "no http ever" mode 08:22 but then you need to disable it on encountering an http-only site 08:22 yes, it's not a big deal, but it's nice to have 08:24 Our troubleticketing app uses http for the login screen where people use they company-wide credentials to login. 08:24 Maybe I should snatch some passwords from the network...? 08:25 * aosdict facepalms 08:25 s/they/their/ 08:26 And most if not all our servers have expired certs because getting company cert is more hassle than people are willing to suffer. 08:27 aosdict: If your choices are between "no http ever" and "default to http", that's very bad design. 08:28 default to https, fall back to http when https is unavailable, would be a reasonable setting. 08:28 Though personally I prefer use-whatever-protocol-the-URL-bloody-says. 08:28 Better would be "Launch an ICBM at the target if https fails". 08:28 jonadab: the choices are no http ever, and *defer* to http when unavailable. 08:28 jonadab: Decent website will automagically redirect you anyway. 08:29 and lots of sites load resources from http domains 08:29 Browsers complain about that. 08:30 aosdict: Yes, _almost_ as much of the web will break if you don't support http, as if you don't support https. 08:30 so being on a site with a https URL does not guarantee you have full https there 08:30 Is there any reason to not run https today? 08:30 Mandevil: the IT industry has spent thirty years training people to just click yes-do-it-anyway when browsers complain about stuff like that. 08:31 Mandevil: https://doesmysiteneedhttps.com/ 08:31 aosdict: Why did you send me that link? 08:31 aosdict: My sites does use https. 08:31 jonadab: happily, there's a bit of a turnaround with the green padlock icon 08:31 in major browsers 08:31 aosdict: And if you come over http it forces you over anyway. 08:32 Mandevil: yes, that's just a site that lays out the arguments for convincing someone that their http webserver is bad 08:32 not directed at you 08:32 aosdict: But I had different question: Is there any valid reason to not support https? 08:33 I'm also very cynical about how much security https actually provides, because anyone on the Big Huge List can issue a cert, and your browser won't even _blink_ if a site you visited on Tuesday suddenly has a completely different cert on Wednesday. 08:33 It does prevent casual password sniffing in cases where the attacker does not want to bother to impersonate/proxy. 08:33 But that's about all. 08:34 jonadab: Still something. 08:34 Mandevil: the only reason I can think of is if you have a large portion of users you want to keep whose browsers do not support HTTPS 08:34 which means, like, early 2000s 08:34 aosdict: Like.... mosaic? 08:34 aosdict: It's possible to support both. 08:35 Yes. 08:35 Oh, right. 08:35 The main reason to not have https is that it isn't worth the trouble for some kinds of sites. Granted, this is not valid for commerce sites and such. 08:35 jonadab: You need some access to do MITM which not everyone has. 08:35 Mandevil: Yes, that's true with http as well. 08:35 You have to be between the user and the site. 08:35 jonadab: Causal sniffing is much easier. 08:35 (Or compromise the DNS.) 08:36 Mandevil: Casual sniffing, you still have to be between the user and the site. 08:36 Unless an unswitched network is involved. 08:36 Which, ok, yes, I suppose there's 802.11 08:37 But all of this is irrelevant for sites that don't do any login stuff or have any sensitive information. Like a pastebin, for instance. 08:37 jonadab: also for things like malicious actors between users and the server doing things like inserting ads or loading scripts the user does not expect the site to download 08:37 The _only_ coherent argument in favor of supporting https on a pastebin is, "It'll give some people the warm fuzzy feelings they want." 08:37 heard the stuff with the pirate bay and the cryptocurrency miner in javascript? 08:37 jonadab: Another point is that SSL make large scale information gathering harder. 08:37 anyone could theoretically MITM your pastebin and attach a script with a miner in it 08:38 Large-scale information gathering is normally done server-side, so I don't see how the transport protocol is relevant. 08:38 so it's not just logins. 08:38 jonadab: Large scale information gathering is done in transit as well. 08:38 Anyway, I'm in favor of movements to make https easier to set up, like LetsEncrypt. 08:38 jonadab: You might have heard about NSA... 08:38 But they're in their infancy. 08:39 jonadab: a ton of stuff uses let's encrypt now 08:39 including hardfought 08:39 Mandevil: _That_ kind of scale of information gathering doesn't bother me, because I know for a fact the resources they would need to actually _do_ anything with that amount of information don't exist in the universe. 08:39 aosdict: Yes, what I mean is, LetsEncrypt still doesn't make it as easy to set up https as it should be. 08:39 the great thing about letsencrypt is that it destroys the economic argument for not providing HTTPS 08:40 jonadab: Er? Let's encrypt is as easy as possible! 08:40 jonadab: You literally run a script and it does all the work. 08:41 hm 08:41 I was thinking more in terms of, it should be, you apt-get install the web server software, and https is set up. 08:41 Also, it's not as easy as you say. 08:41 jonadab: Some web servers do this out of the box, though IIRC not Apache. 08:42 Apache is really the only web server software that matters, honestly. 08:42 jonadab: ??? 08:42 jonadab: Isn't Apache already in the minority? 08:42 Wat? 08:42 Last I knew its market share was like 85%. 08:43 And most of the rest was IIS. 08:43 I thought nginx had a pretty large share 08:43 Nginx is in the same ballpark as apache. 08:43 actually, not. 08:44 Interesting. 08:44 https://news.netcraft.com/archives/2017/03/24/march-2017-web-server-survey.html 08:44 Apache is still quite dominant. 08:44 Not 85%-level dominant though. 08:44 nginx is definitely closing in. 08:44 Ah, interesting. 08:45 nginx is that hipster one kerio uses. 08:45 nginx is wildly popular. 08:45 I was not aware it was going mainstream. He'll have to find something different. 08:45 It's not "the hipster one". 08:45 It's very mainstream. 08:45 YEah, apparently it's getting there. 08:45 Looks like by some measures it is ahead of IIS. 08:46 jonadab: https was very simple for me to setup on fiq.se 08:46 Which, IIS is a special case, it's used when it _has_ to be used because of "every single component of our Solution must be Microsoft Certified" situations. 08:46 with letsencrypt 08:46 and that is the only reason fiq.se hsa it 08:46 I think the cert expired because I didn't bother setting up an automatic updater 08:46 but oh well 08:48 You know, it used to be that the most common cause of expired certs was dead CMOS batteries causing the user's realtime clock to be off by years. 08:48 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 08:48 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 08:49 But I haven't seen that in a while, I think newer OSes do ntp by default, and/or newer hardware has better CMOS batteries. 08:49 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:50 Man, this certbot thing sure has a lot of dependencies. 08:50 * jonadab is not sure this was a good idea to do on a production system. 08:51 I should've done it on warthog first. 08:51 (Then again, warthog is a dev system, so it probably _has_ all the dependencies, unless they're not available for its out of date base OS.) 08:52 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 08:57 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 08:57 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 08:58 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:03 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 09:03 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 09:05 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:06 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 09:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 09:07 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:14 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 09:14 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 09:16 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:20 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 09:22 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 132 points, T:662, killed by a monster (soft boiled eggman), while paralyzed by trying to hangup cheat 09:22 yani: "You hear someone cursing shoplifters" replaces someone with the name of the shopkeeper if you have previously observed a shopkeeper on the level and they're not dead or anything 09:23 "while paralyzed by trying to hangup cheat" 09:23 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:24 yani: in Unnethack and other variants with a black market, you never hear "You hear someone cursing shoplifters" unless you have actually shoplifted and angered One-eyed Sam. 09:28 yani: new role, the Debtor. You start by having taken out massive loans and obtained a lot of very good equipment. However, your creditors appear from time to time and demand you pay them large sums of gold for your interest. If you can't pay, first they send repossession men to take your gear, and if they don't reclaim their initial investment, they send thugs to kill you. 09:28 aosdict: what about Minetown? 09:29 Since your starting gear won't cover your loans, the only long-term survival strategy is to find all the gold you can and use it to pay off your debts. 09:29 @ the "shopkeeper ID" yani 09:29 FIQ: then presumably you would use a random known shopkeeper from the level, making this a SMOP 09:31 not that hard 09:31 add identified flag to eshk 09:31 set it when first entering their store? 09:31 flip it if msensem(you, shk) returns that you can sense him/her 09:31 Whenever the shopkeeper greets you, I'd say. 09:32 FIQhack updated 09:32 K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-27 03:20 EDT: updated fiqhack 09:32 you can get the name with farlook 09:33 we're now up to 57 "FIQhack updated"s 09:34 FIQ: yes, but setting it when they greet you seems simpler and almost the same 09:34 not simpler 09:34 wel ok yes it is 09:34 but only marginally 09:34 Getting their name with farlook doesn't identify their _voice_. 09:34 good point 09:38 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 0 points, T:6, killed by cutting 09:39 suicide spell 09:48 this is a pointless feature 09:48 !tell K2 pushed a fiqhac update 09:48 Will do, FIQ! 09:48 aosdict: 2 lines of code 09:49 ZAPM updated 09:49 K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-27 09:48 EDT: pushed a fiqhac update 09:49 Wrong game 09:49 ZAPM is no longer in standalone test mode 09:49 ;) 09:49 So you can't play anymore 09:49 ? 09:49 to play ZAPM, have to accept the challenge on the /dev/null 3.6.0 port first 09:49 correct 09:49 ah 09:49 ok 09:49 we need to make sure the challenge is working as intended 09:49 aosdict: Much easier than expected 09:49 The existing framework made adding it trivial 09:50 yeah, maybe in fiqhack 09:50 who knows what it'll take in vanilla 09:50 Not much harder elsewhere 09:50 (probably not that much) 09:50 There is visitct 09:50 That counts visits 09:50 And the code already had an easy way to get the shopkeeper from the special room sound 09:51 See my commit 09:51 It is only marginally more complicated in vanilla (there is no mx_name to get monster's names) 09:56 FIQhack updated 09:56 again 09:56 ;) 09:56 sorry 09:57 #58 09:57 never apologize 09:57 sign of weakness 09:57 i had a platoon sergeant that used to pound that into my head 09:57 its true but only sometimes under certain situations 09:58 -!- Khor_ has joined #hardfought 09:58 also it's not always bad to be weak 09:58 Apology is only a sign of weakness in certain, fairly narrow circumstances. Probably makes more sense in a military context than in civilian life. 09:58 ^ that 09:58 -!- Khor is now known as KhorM 09:59 -!- Khor_ is now known as Khor 09:59 but in all seriousness - FIQ, you never have to apologize for fixing something in your game and asking for an update ;) 10:24 FIQ: How do I make it so that FIQH uses empty space? 10:25 "Uses empty space"? 10:25 You mean draw_rock ? 10:25 Mmm... 10:25 The unused space in the terminal to show inventory and such. 10:25 Or setting sidebar to auto? 10:25 Ah, yes, try setting sidebar to auto. 10:26 Under Interface Options, Screen Layout. 10:26 It seems like it's already on auto. 10:26 Ah. 10:26 How big is your terminal? 10:27 Right now 126x24 10:27 But I'm just trying the feature 10:27 I think that _should_ be wide enough to show the sidebar. 10:27 (But not tall enough for extrawin or very much message area.) 10:28 199x24 doesn't either. 10:28 So I don't think it's a size problem. 10:28 Khor: restart the session 10:28 dgamelaunch is stupid with term resizing 10:28 OH, dgamelaunch, right. 10:28 exit out of dgamelaunch, resize, then start a new one 10:28 Yes, if you change your terminal size, dgamelaunch refuses to let the game know. 10:28 start a new what 10:28 a new game? 10:29 no 10:29 like 10:29 A new ssh to dgl. 10:29 exit out of dgamelaunch 10:29 resize your terminal 10:29 then ssh into hdf again 10:29 Or if using PuTTY/KiTTY, set the size in the options, before connect. 10:29 K2: this was a new feature 10:29 a very minor one at that 10:29 not a fix 10:30 ok 10:30 oh ok 10:30 now it works 10:30 The reverse also applies 10:30 If you make the terminal smaller w/o restarting 10:30 your game will look super buggy 10:31 [fh] FIQ (Pri Elf Mal Cha), 1378 points, T:4, quit 10:32 sounds fun 10:32 this elven priest started with a bell 10:32 good stuff 10:32 and its pet died 10:32 in like 10 turns 10:33 in 4 turns 10:33 I thought you weren't able to start with a bell? 10:33 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 10:33 aosdict: Yeah, I thought the u_init code considered non-tonal instruments "useless", but I could be misremembering. 10:34 The list of what is useless is kind of weird, I remember THAT. 10:34 maybe FIQ changed it 10:34 jonadab: a drum can be pretty useful to prevent emergencies happening 10:34 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-27 05:54 EDT: So there is 3 relevant fields to keep track on if an occupation is going on or not. There is flags.occupation that tracks what exactly you are doing. There is flags.interrupted for when you are interrupted in whatever you are doing. There is flags.incomplete to mark that there is an active occupation. Why is there 3 fields instead of just 1? Can't you just make it so that if you are 10:34 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-27 05:54 EDT: interrupted, flags.occupation is zeroed? You can use the timers to see if an occupation is active. 10:34 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-27 07:31 EDT: Easiest way to rebase onto fiqhack minus its featurelist would probably be to just go from fiqhack, look at the changelog at https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/FIQhack (it might not have everything, but should have everything that matters) and undo whatever changes are deemed dubious 10:34 it's like a tooled horn, except not tonal 10:35 Oh, hmm, true. 10:35 yeah 10:35 FIQ: IIRC there are good reasons to have both interrupted and incomplete, but I'm not sure why there's an occupation field 10:35 Khor used it in his last fh game before the gnomish wizard fireballed his face 10:35 to make stuff flee 10:35 ais523: well 10:35 jonadab: 3.6.0 u_init hardcodes wood flute, tooled horn, wood harp, bell, bugle, and leather drum 10:36 actually hmm 10:36 which is probably not a 3.6 change 10:36 I was going to say "the game needs to know what the player is doing" 10:36 but this isn't true because occupations are actually mostly clientside 10:36 interrupted and incomplete are basically clues to the /client/ about whether they should repeat the command they were just given 10:36 but I personally would strike out bells from elf starting inv 10:36 ais523: right but I was thinking to do that with occupation 10:36 basically 10:36 if occupation is nonzero 10:36 I think the purpose of occupation is so that the game can react to that? 10:36 the client continues spamming whatever it was doing 10:36 if not, it stops 10:37 FIQ: well, say the user does 50. 10:37 ais523: either way, I need an occupation field in my refactor 10:37 if the action is `interrupted`, and the user presses Ctrl-A, it should continue waiting for the remainder of those 50 actions 10:37 aosdict: Yeah, not sure why bell is on that list, it shouldn't be. Nor bugle, really. 10:37 for the benefit of monsters 10:37 if the action is `!incomplete`, and the user presses Ctrl-A, it should do another 50 actions 10:37 jonadab: how useful are bells? 10:38 ais523: I don't know of a use for them other than as polyfodder. 10:38 If it is cursed, it has a 1/3 chance of summoning a nymph 10:38 Oh, yes, that's _lots_ of use. In the eye of some flying pig somewhere. 10:38 ANd then either do nothing more, paralyze the player, or haste the nymph 10:38 It is one of the most obscure features nethack has I'd say 10:38 Other than that it has no use 10:39 Oh, it can also make noise 10:39 Tin whistles of course also do this, and is much lighter 10:39 There are plenty of ways to make noise, in the very rare case that you want to do so. 10:39 jonadab: bugles can at least play the passtune, right? 10:39 aosdict: True. 10:39 Yesw 10:39 *Yes 10:39 that's strange, as real-life bugles are limited to a limited subset of notes 10:39 and I'm not convinced it contains an entire scale unless you go /way/ into the high octaves 10:40 (which is physically very difficult for a human to do) 10:40 RL bugles are tonal enough to play revelry. 10:40 And taps. 10:40 ais523: we've already established that the adventurer has perfect pitch 10:40 so who knows, he might be a natural 10:40 FIQ: it's not to do with understanding pitch 10:40 might be able to pull it off 10:40 FIQ: of course! why would someone heralded from birth not have perfect pitch? 10:40 yes, I know 10:40 it's to do with how hard you blow into the bugle 10:40 but still 10:41 most people can't blow hard enough to get above top G 10:41 most people can't summon missiles from their fingers 10:41 (the "bugle scale" is CGCEG, those are the only five notes that it's considered viable to play on it) 10:41 yasi: make a Str check for bugling A, B, D, or F 10:42 Oh, hmm, apparently it's spelled reveille. Which has only a _passing_ resemblance to how it's pronounced. 10:42 FIQ: also, for bards 10:42 should spellbooks be completely replaced with songbooks? 10:42 hmm, the top G is position 6 in the harmonic series 10:42 there isn't an F in the first 20 10:42 or should bards be able to cast? 10:42 aosdict: Why? 10:43 I never liked the concept of giving special drops depending on what you play as 10:43 there's a D at 9, which seems vaguely viable 10:43 Also, I don't see why non-bards can't have a (limited) musical ability 10:43 FIQ: I imagine most bard magic is area buffs that don't line up very well with actual spells 10:43 there isn't an A in the first 20 either 10:43 Or vice versa, with bards spellcasting 10:43 first B is at 15 10:44 and not sure about music that duplicates spell effects 10:44 I have been toying with the idea of altogether eliminating death drops, in favor of monster inventory. 10:44 so I guess on a real-life bugle, if you're just going with position within the octave and not caring about the octave, you can only play C, E, G, and maybe D if you're insane 10:44 jonadab: not a bad idea 10:44 aosdict: also, bards should arguably be able to, technically speaking, "find" buff spells by trial and error 10:44 s/spells/songs/ 10:45 well I assume you don't want them to be able to brute force combinations while standing on DL1 10:45 there should be some sort of identification game 10:45 aosdict: of course 10:45 I'm just saying, technically speaking :P 10:45 Maybe give them a random song every time they level up, or at certain levels? 10:45 what if they started with all songs identified, but need to practice the song to be able to play it 10:46 Oh, separate practice for each song? 10:46 Before it's effective? 10:46 "You try to play the Fight Faster song, but you flub several notes." 10:46 parallel to spell success rate 10:46 except perhaps you can practice with a songbook as many times as you want 10:47 OK, and looking it up: first F at 21, first A at 27 (!) 10:47 unlike spellbooks 10:47 except no spell memory 10:47 but arguably fail rate should increase if you decide not to play something for a while 10:47 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48 FIQ: right, you still have "memory" 10:48 except memory can be restored from the songbook, and is topped up by playing the song 10:48 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 10:49 YASI: piccolos available from soldiers as another instrument you can play the tune with 10:49 Terrified by cloak of attribute loss 10:50 adding a new role while preserving save compat will be fun 10:50 That is EVIL 10:50 FIQ: adding a new role is definitely a savebreaker 10:50 don't even bother with compat 10:50 no! 10:50 not fair 10:51 aosdict: NH4 is better at save compat than vanilla, FIQhack better still 10:51 but adjusting the list of player-monsters strikes me as a particularly hard thing to do without breaking saves 10:51 I think the largest save-shim I've done so far is mextra conversion 10:52 this was before I added a revisioning system 10:52 so I relied on content in monst having particular values 10:53 too bad there is no "fiqhack" identifier in old saves 10:54 or I could've made fiqhack able to load NH4 saves :P 10:55 there's probably /something/ that tells them apart 10:55 actually I might be able to by abusing uintrinsic 10:56 which never existed in fiqhack 10:56 in any release 10:57 because right after that comes skills 10:57 and you will know the role before 10:58 actually that doesn't even matter 10:58 because skills will not start with a 32bit field of 0 10:58 if read that way from the save 10:58 which intrinsics will (due to 0 being "no intrinsic") 11:00 so if, after reading the 1st skill, you discover that the values consist of only zeroes 11:01 you know you are dealing with a NH4 save and you're actually supposed to read intrinsics 11:06 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:06 actually there is an even earlier place you can hijack 11:06 flags 11:06 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 11:07 actually there is an even earlier place you can hijack 11:07 flags 11:08 hm, no you can't 11:08 not realibly, anyway 11:08 so yeah, you is earliest 11:09 so probably what you'd need to do would be to, if you detect a NH4 save, force a do-over of the loading from scratch 11:11 right, this seems unreasonably difficult for a minor gain 11:11 also, what would you do about things that existed in NH4 but not fiqhack? 11:11 detect food, for example 11:11 remove it :D 11:12 ais523: I wasn't really going to do this 11:12 I see no point in NH4 save compat 11:12 Was just pondering on the feasibility of it 11:12 what about item/description randomization? 11:12 if it was even doable without like doubling the complexity of the save loading 11:13 Hm? Just replace detect food with one of the new spells 11:13 Appearance-wise 11:13 ais523: Also, I've actually already added an object to fiqhack once 11:13 The way I "dealt" with appearances was "well, old games will know what a potion like this looks like" 11:13 I didn't feel it was worthwhile to address 11:14 FIQ: I mean, when you add a potion of wonder 11:14 how do you determine what it looks like, in a way that doesn't break save compat? 11:14 It Just Works(TM) 11:14 Which surprised me tbh 11:14 As in 11:14 I put an offset for object IDs and descriptions 11:14 After wonder 11:15 Wonder would end up with the appearance of "amber" 11:15 (the one I added when I added wonder) 11:15 oh, I see 11:16 I added a "new object" check 11:16 for the purpose of restobjclass 11:16 (It is what handles objects[] mutables, like appearances) 11:17 It sets the randomized appearance to be equal to the object typ ID 11:17 Since it is the unused one 11:17 ais523: If you, like 4k, have spare appearances 11:17 you wouldn't need to do this 11:17 you could just use one of the spares and make a new object out of it 11:18 vanilla has spare appearances too 11:18 Yes, but not for all classes 11:18 Only a few 11:18 Scrolls, for example 11:19 That reminds me 11:19 jonadab: When you added spare ring appearances 11:19 Did you ensure equal balancing of edibles compared to what existed? 11:23 NetHack 3.6.1-dev updated 11:23 this includes the new and improved status hilites 11:23 ais523: btw 11:23 daniel_t wanted client+server stuff for the benefit of web play, right? 11:24 how hard would it be to add a webclient windowport to NH4 I wonder 11:24 FIQ: yes but the way he did it was totally misguided 11:24 my current plan is to add a webclient to /libuncursed/ 11:24 but then there's the problem of whether I add it to libuncursed1 (meaning going back to working on it) 11:24 or waiting for libuncursed2 11:24 make libuncursed2 11:25 note that the new status hilite kills everyone's rcfiles 11:25 regarding statuscolors 11:25 again! 11:25 ais523: would the uncursed webclient be pure js, or would it be regular c uncursed, compiled with emscripten? 11:25 see guidebook at https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/tree/NetHack-3.6.0/doc for examples of use for new improved hilite statuscolors 11:26 Elronnd: for a read-only webclient, you could actually probably do it in pure (slow-loading) HTML without needing JS 11:26 but JS is needed to send keypresses to the game, I think 11:26 um 11:26 how exactly would you update the screen w/o JS? 11:26 ais523: in theory, you could do it without js 11:26 FIQ: see the gif that always updates with the current time 11:26 FIQ: basically you have a page that simply loads indefinitely 11:27 ais523: but it would be way faster with actual js 11:27 and as more of it loads, it overwrites things that have already loaded 11:27 Elronnd: hm 11:27 that's an interesting strategy :P 11:27 because you could send more data across the existing socket, rather than opening a new one 11:28 ais523: it would also be a huge memory leak 11:28 But I guess it technically works :P 11:28 ais523: the problem I have with it being in plain html (or js just for keypresses) is that then uncursed is running remotely, not locally in browser 11:28 -!- hf_guest_69393 has joined #hardfought 11:29 Elronnd: oh, you'd want the entire game to run in the browser? 11:29 yes 11:29 I guess we could make an emscripten backend for that 11:29 FIQ: I considered it but did not ensure it. Among other things, with spare appearances, the ones that _don't_ get used can all be edible, or all inedible, theoretically. 11:29 probably not nethack, but a game 11:29 I just don't see why you'd want that, but maybe someone does? 11:29 which might be what you want, but I think webplay should also be able to occur locally. It would lower the bar for starting to play nethack if you don't need to create an account (using the web), or download an application 11:29 ais523: have you seen BrowserHack? 11:29 FIQ: possibly? if so I don't really remember it 11:29 it's NH3 with a node.js web-based windowport 11:30 it's nethack in emscripten 11:30 http://coolwanglu.github.io/BrowserHack/# 11:30 FIQ: I don't think it was node.js? I don't think people really use node for client-side, although there have been efforts 11:30 Elronnd: well the client stuff would of course not be in node.js 11:31 FIQ: I don't think it was server-based, I think it was all in the browser 11:31 hmm 11:31 let's try running it on OP 11:31 if it's purely clientside, it will crash and burn 11:31 OP? 11:32 openpandora 11:32 ah 11:32 ...why's that? 11:32 because openpandora isn't exactly famous for its specs 11:32 1.3GHz 2009 arm CPU 11:32 eh, it can still run nethack 11:33 FIQ: hmm, I see ws:// in the source code 11:33 Elronnd: web based? 11:33 it has general trouble with web stuff 11:33 FIQ: ws:// means websocket, which generally means server-based 11:33 because the web today is really browsed 11:33 Elronnd: see? :P 11:34 yeah it runs fine on OP 11:34 no lag whatsoever 11:34 ais523: JS isn't needed for a webclient to send input to the server if you're willing to submit a form and load a new page for every action. Granted, players would probably like it better if you used js to hijack keypresses in ways that websites shouldn't be allowed to do IMO. 11:34 I'm pretty sure 1.3GHz 2009 arm can still run nethack on top of spidermonkey 11:35 jonadab: I *just* said that 11:35 Elronnd: dude it has trouble with web sites in general 11:35 if you make it run youtube it will whine loudly 11:35 FIQ: ah 11:35 and basically slow down to a crawl 11:35 what happens if you make it run gogle docs? 11:35 jonadab: even if you're just hijacking clicks on the page, which is much less objectionable, you still almost certainly need JS 11:35 that's the web of today, so much bloat :( 11:35 Elronnd: it works 11:35 unless you can somehow CSS all the individual pixels into submit buttons or something silly like that 11:35 ais523: no you dn't 11:35 but *slow* 11:35 ais523: exactly. Don't even need css for that, plain html can do it 11:36 Elronnd: I don't see any point in a browser-based game if it's not talking to the server. I think the only reason developers do this is because they learned Javascript and want to make a game. 11:36 javascript isn't that bad 11:36 Elronnd: you can't make a submit button look like something else without CSS 11:36 although you wouldn't really need a form submit 11:36 just that it is very, very abused 11:36 you could just use GET and , even if that violates the standard a bit because it's not idempotent 11:36 sufficiently many people do it in practice that it works in practice 11:37 GET violates the standard?? 11:37 ais523: what would be cool 11:37 is if there was something like dcss webtiles 11:37 ais523: No need to hijack clicks, just use submit buttons and/or links. 11:37 from what I heard, the code backing it is a huge clusterfuck of hacks 11:37 ais523: anyway, with nethack you don't actually need pixel-precision, only character precision 11:37 but to an end user, it works rather well 11:37 which is easy because each character can just be a submit in a form 11:37 i 11:38 t allows you to spec term players 11:38 and vice versa 11:38 Elronnd: the standard defines GET to only be usable in some circumstances 11:38 using tiles in web 11:38 specifically, when the act of GETting data has no side effects, or is at least idempotent 11:38 I think this is a major reason as to why dcss is so popular 11:38 it should be safe to do things like speculatively GETting the target of a link 11:38 the fact that it's trivial to set up 11:39 and play webtiles 11:39 ais523: I thought GET wasn't specced at all, it was just a request 11:39 Elronnd: the standards have to say what GET menas 11:39 *means 11:39 and the fact that webservers and webapps interpret ?bla=bla is not specced at all 11:39 otherwise browsers wouldn't know to send it and servers wouldn't know how to interpret it 11:39 I mean, obviously GET /foo/bar/baz is specced 11:40 ais523: In practice, a LOT of things on the web use GET for stuff that's not idempotent. 11:40 jonadab: yes 11:40 I'm aware 11:41 ais523: anyway, if GETs with ?= would violate the spec, then we can just hack up the server and GET /nethack/update/x/16/y/574 11:42 I think GETs with ?= are fine 11:42 it's #! that's dubious (and causes problems in practice) 11:42 i.e. a query string that controls which page is loaded 11:42 s/query string/anchor/ 11:43 query string is fine 11:43 what's an anchor? 11:43 ais523: the web moved away from #! I think 11:43 * Elronnd is confuse 11:43 but I remember the pains when that was the new thing 11:43 (and what's #! in the web? I've only ever seen it in scripts) 11:43 Elronnd: the anchor is the part after # in an URL 11:43 oh 11:43 web browsers would be confused 11:43 its intended meaning is to scroll the page to a particular point when it loads 11:43 ais523: why would we need that? 11:43 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 4138 points, T:3676, killed by a shotgun shell 11:43 and I can't properly use links 11:43 some websites hijacked it to mean something else, which caused a lot of trouble 11:44 google does this 11:44 Google invented a convention of replacing # with #! in cases where the meaning wasn't the obvious/standard one 11:44 so that its search engine could produce better results in that case 11:44 but 11:44 it's nonstandard, though, I think 11:44 why would we need #!? 11:44 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 11:44 we don't 11:44 it's stupid 11:44 so why is ais complaining about it? 11:45 hi amy! 11:45 hi Elronnd! great news: I managed to find and eradicate the hallucination segfault panic in slex!!! will push a hotfix soon :) 11:45 LarienTelrunya: Message from aosdict at 2017-09-27 07:38 EDT: so German has lots of exceptions and then lots of exceptions to those exceptions? Sounds a lot like nethack 11:45 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragment_identifier#Proposals on hashbang 11:45 it was a horrible time 11:45 thankfully it is no more 11:46 LarienTelrunya: is german worse than french in terms of exceptions? 11:46 afk for now 11:46 !tell aosdict haha, the german language is way more difficult to learn and understand than nethack :D 11:46 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 11:46 from what I've heard, french verbs are similar to spanish 11:46 in that they have like 200 forms 11:46 wait, is the idea here to send HTTP requests for every single update, including like a single space? 11:46 aosdict: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-09-27 11:46 EDT: haha, the german language is way more difficult to learn and understand than nethack :D 11:46 nein! 11:46 aosdict: yes 11:46 Elronnd: not sure, I never learned french, but I've heard that it supposedly has well-defined rules, just a lot of them 11:46 half of them being exceptions 11:46 if this is true 11:46 That will not go over well with any real amount of latency. 11:46 LarienTelrunya: half the words you learn in french are exceptions 11:46 then german would be easier 11:46 LarienTelrunya: really? I've heard german is really easy to learn 11:46 LarienTelrunya: difficult shield make next level maze? 11:47 yuring: difficult shield gives some nasty trap effect while worn, but that maze was probably just random 11:47 aosdict: you have to send over some protocol 11:47 !lsatgame yuring 11:47 why not HTTP? it's not very verbose 11:47 Elronnd: so the idea here is to avoid javascript completely? 11:47 !lastgame yuring 11:47 LarienTelrunya: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/Y/Yuring/slex/dumplog/1506519790.slex.txt 11:47 the only way it adds to latency is that it doesn't reuse an existing network connection 11:47 ah, in your case the difficult shield made it so that your pets had a chance of spontaneously turning hostile 11:47 ais523: well, if you're going to eschew javascript, sure, but if you allow it you could at least send a single JSON blob 11:48 aosdict: not sure actually. I think js would be a good thing, but ais wants it to be all http 11:48 ais523: actually get would be worse for latency 11:48 and have the page parse and render the blob appropriately 11:48 because with a new request, you actually have to talk htpt 11:48 aosdict: a URL-encoded JSON blob really doesn't take much longer to send than a regular JSON blob 11:48 Elronnd: I'd certainly not call German easy to learn 11:48 whereas with websockets, you only have to send one character, the char that was pressed 11:48 That is the asskicking boots 11:48 Elronnd: the latency difference between 1 byte and 512 bytes is basically negligible 11:48 LarienTelrunya: but isn't it you rnative language? :P 11:49 Elronnd: I'd call English hard to learn and it's my native language 11:49 sure 11:49 German is easier in some ways, e.g. the spelling is regular 11:49 ais523: ok but how about refreshing the state? 11:49 ais523: you would have to send all these HTTP requests asynchronously. 11:49 and harder in others, e.g. grammatical gender is much more commonly used in German 11:49 Not sure if if can handle that. 11:49 if the browser doesn't have to do caching, then it will reload all the images or the font every single pageload 11:49 Elronnd: yeah, that's why it wasn't so hard for me to learn, but for someone who grew up with English it will be difficult 11:49 LarienTelrunya: ah 11:49 yuring: ah, I see; you also had the effect that monsters never left death drops, so that probably came from the shield 11:50 Elronnd: right, if you aren't using JS and there's no sort of diffing in the protocol (which HTTP really should have by this point but doesn't), you have to reload the HTML part of the page each time 11:50 images are easy to cache though 11:50 if we're supporting dumb browsers, then we have to assume they don't cache 11:51 as such, js is a lower common denominator 11:51 I doubt that ie6 had good caching, but it probably had enough js to read keypresses, send them, and modify pagestate 11:51 ie6 caches just fine 11:51 bear in mind that the server can give very strong hints about caching 11:51 oh 11:51 ok 11:52 back in the days of ie6 it was usual for games to load all the images into cache once before the game started 11:52 didn't games in the days of ie6 use flash not js? 11:52 to save loading times later 11:52 not all of them 11:52 (or java) 11:52 realtime games were normally flash 11:52 turn-based games were typically JS or even HTML 11:52 (like kol!) 11:52 (I think it still works with no js) 11:53 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 354 points, T:658, killed by a hobbit 11:54 LarienTelrunya: the stair to mines generated in a shop 11:54 Is that allowed? 11:54 yuring: have you taken it to verify it's real? 11:55 yuring: yes, it makes shoplifting easy :) 11:55 but yes, in slex, basically everything is allowed 11:55 It is real 11:55 Wow 11:55 ais523: I don't know how it feels for a native speaker of a language that doesn't have genders but gender was never an issue for me in any language I learnt that has them (latin, french, italian) as you always learn the gender along with the word meaning anyway 11:56 OTOH I can see how that German adjective forms are a bitch to learn by heart 11:56 bhaak: English does have genders, but on very very few words compared to languages like German 11:56 but learning gender along with meaning is really quite hard if you're used to a language like English 11:56 because the meaning and gender aren't associated in our mind 11:56 and aren't consistent between languages anyway 11:57 ais523: english has genders? ;o 11:57 I don't know of one word in english that's gendered 11:57 Elronnd: for example ships 11:57 !tell K2 Critical hotfix for slex. This one squashes an age-old crash bug that would corrupt saves. https://github.com/SLASHEM-Extended/SLASHEM-Extended/commit/90135789125d07207eea18d0bcbd54cfe6855760 - can you please apply this single commit d6c0360 to slex? Thanks! :) 11:57 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 11:57 I would say that english gendered words are more idioms than a true part of the language 11:57 countries are also feminized 11:57 Elronnd: "ship" is feminine 11:57 who knows why 11:58 ye I agree with what aosdict says 11:58 ship isn't actually feminine, it's just an idiom to call ships 'she' 11:58 can't think of any masculine words off the top of my head 11:58 aosdict: there are obvious ones like "boy", but yes, no really weird ones that stand out 11:58 (strangely enough, "girl" is neuter in German) 11:59 because it's a diminutive form and those are always neuter 12:00 for example "das Männchen" from "der Mann" is also neuter, although it's not an as often used word as "girl" 12:00 bhaak: yes, I know the reason, it's still bizarre though 12:00 ein kurzhaariges Mädchen, die ihre Haare nicht offen trug :D (my roommate complained and said it should be "das") 12:00 ais523: only because you are not used to differentiate sex and gender 12:00 LarienTelrunya: gah, I can read that entire sentence apart from the "trug" at the end 12:00 and it's frustrating me 12:01 LarienTelrunya: depends. but Grammar nazis will complain 12:01 (I can't speak, write or listen to German with any real level of accuracy, but I can read some proportion of it) 12:01 I used to idle #nethack.de and I understood some of the conversations in there 12:02 what gender do moon and sun have in English? 12:03 ais523: "trug" is the past form of "wear", i.e. "a short-haired girl who wore her hair not openly" 12:03 bhaak: "moon" is occasionally feminine in poetry but that's an archaic usage now, it's nearly always neuter in regular use 12:03 both gender are assigned in German and it's the opposite as in the Romance language. that is sometimes confusing if you read translated literature with personifications of those bodies 12:04 then "sun" is even more occasionally masculine but typically only because the poet wants a contrast 12:04 English being able to draw from both traditions, it could have any combination :) 12:05 that would be like in the Romance languages then 12:05 romance languages derive their gender from roman mythology then, I think 12:06 hmm, somehow I suspect English once made much heavier use of genders but it died out 12:06 Elronnd: Browsers have had image caching for significantly longer than they've supported anything you would recognize as Javascript today. 12:07 I'd kind of expect more artifacts of gender on words then 12:07 Heck, NCSA Mosaic did image caching, I think. 12:07 but as it stands, most of said artifacts are because they're derived from other languages, French in particular 12:07 aosdict: the names are obviously gendered already as they were named after the Gods that had gender. with "luna" the feminine gender is a bit more obvious than the male "sol" 12:09 Elronnd: English doesn't really have grammatical gender, no. It used to, and there are a handful of remnants of that system, but they survive only as individual vocabulary items with a gender-biased meaning, most of which have fallen out of fashion in the last thirty years due to feminism. 12:10 that's because of feminism?? 12:11 Feminism is why words like "chairman" and "stewardess" are being replaced, yes. 12:11 fireman -> fireperson 12:12 Eh, fireman -> EMS, mostly. 12:12 Which reflects a different change. 12:12 But "policeman" -> "police officer". 12:12 jonadab: hmm, what is "stewardess" being replaced with on non-air travel contexts? 12:12 bhaak: German is like that too, "sehr geehrte Bürgerinnen und Bürger" GAH, why not just say "Bürger", the generic masculinum should be alright! stupid SJWs :P 12:12 aosdict: "stewardess" in practice was only used in air-travel contexts, AFAIK. 12:12 LarienTelrunya: "sehr geehrte Bürgerierende" 12:13 In any other context, either a male or a female can be a steward, I think. 12:13 LarienTelrunya: the male and female forms were a real bitch when translating nethack-de 12:13 jonadab: and the rationale for not using steward/stewardess is because it's a diminutive form? 12:13 the male and female forms of the roles 12:13 heh, did you make cavewoman into "Höhlenmenschin"? 12:13 mom, I'll check 12:14 aosdict: I'm not clear on the rationale exactly, but it had something to do with the gender bias in the field (pilots all being male, flight attendants all being female). Rather than go after the substance of that, muddle-headed feminists went after the _language_. 12:15 LarienTelrunya: "Hallo Bubi, willkommen bei NetHack! Du bist ein neutraler weiblicher menschlicher Höhlenmensch." 12:15 menschlicher Höhlenmensch LOL :D 12:15 redundancy is redundant. just noticed that this could use some commas 12:15 "menschlicher" means "human" in this context? 12:16 when I took 4 separate flights recently, I think only one of the 8 attendants was a woman, actually 12:16 aosdict: But the gender bias in the field _was_ strong, to the point where most folks didn't realize that "stewardess" was the female of "steward". There were so few male flight attendants, nobody would've even known what to call them, until "flight attendant" caught on. 12:16 ais523: yes. 12:16 aosdict: Yeah, try it in the 1970s. 12:24 jonadab: which I find stupid 12:24 FIQ: Which? 12:24 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 12:24 Going after language instead of substance? Yes, it's dumb. 12:24 I thinl languages can be excused for being gender-biased 12:25 for historical reasons 12:25 *think 12:25 if you want to run the feminist argument 12:25 Well, in fairness, English has so little gender stuff in it anymore that the pieces that do still exist feel like anomalies. 12:25 you could argue that the gender-bias exposes the history of earlier suppression 12:25 I can see how someone who doesn't know the history of the language would get the wrong idea. 12:25 something that should be remembered 12:25 to not fall into the same mistake again 12:25 (This doesn't mean it isn't the wrong idea they're getting, of course.) 12:26 FIQ: that does not seem like the feminist argument I've heard 12:26 but it's a stupid argument in first place 12:26 which is that keeping gender-biased words or pairs of words encourages further bias 12:26 FIQ: ime, languages aren't really gender-biased, they just have gendered 12:26 aosdict: it's a *counter-argument* to the normal argument 12:26 *they're just 12:26 using similar thoughts 12:27 but I feel like bringing feminism into language in first place is stupid 12:28 Elronnd: there is some pretty noticeable bias in word pairs like master/mistress 12:30 and to a lesser extent, in some words that include "man" and would look ridiculous if replaced with woman, or an appropriate neutral alternative 12:32 Those only seem gender-biased since the word "man" has almost entirely lost its gender-neutral meaning. 12:33 "man" is really awkward, it's clearly gender-based in some contexts and not others 12:33 You can generally tell in context. 12:33 But the contexts in which it's not gender-biased are getting more and more rare. 12:33 Yes, but then the claim is that "sportsman", "freshman", and others reflect masculine dominance of those things 12:34 aosdict: And "human"? 12:35 It is frankly ridiculous to claim that a word is gender-biased because of how it's spelled, without knowing its etymology and history. 12:35 yes, things like human, mankind, and manufacture don't have a gender base. 12:36 huwoman 12:36 "manufacture" is based off the Latin for "hand" ("manus"), the fact that it contains the letters "man" is coincidence 12:36 yes 12:36 same with manicure, manacle, etc 12:37 aosdict: Yes, but the -man suffix is from the Germanic word for human. 12:38 The strong connection with masculinity is a modern phenomenon. 12:39 didn't you get the memo? it's "huperson" now 12:39 which I find a stupid construction 12:39 That is indeed stupid. 12:39 "hubeing" is much better and future proof for when we add our silicone overlords 12:39 We should go back to the Latin and call everyone homos. 12:40 Then the _gender_ people would leave us alone. 12:41 'homo and proud of it' t-shirts 12:41 K2: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-09-27 11:57 EDT: Critical hotfix for slex. This one squashes an age-old crash bug that would corrupt saves. https://github.com/SLASHEM-Extended/SLASHEM-Extended/commit/90135789125d07207eea18d0bcbd54cfe6855760 - can you please apply this single commit d6c0360 to slex? Thanks! :) 12:41 mmmk 12:42 git cherry-pick -x 90135789125 12:42 Though you'd think she could keep a stable branch and do her own cherry picking. Well, you'd think that if you didn't know her. 12:42 oh right, the commit is 90135789, not d6c0360 12:43 confused by github telling me the "parent" commit there 12:46 bhaak: I've most often heard "firefighter" 12:47 -!- captain42 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:47 and the 'man' in 'human' isn't a suffix, the whole thing is from Latin 'humanus' (meaning, indeed, 'human') 12:48 raisse: yeah I think I would use fireman when face to face with an actual male fireman. Thinking about them in the abstract I default to firefighter. 12:50 raisse: Yes, "human" is related to the "homo" in "homo sapiens". 12:50 And yes, "fire fighter" is more common than "fireperson", thank goodness. 12:51 "chairperson" annoys me because they could've just made it "chair". 12:53 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 1609 points, T:3124, killed by a gnome lord 12:54 -!- captain42 has joined #hardfought 12:56 ais523: anyway, so do you think an occupation field alone could substitute the 3 existing fields for occupation stuff? 12:57 where being zero means, no occupation going on 12:57 and nonzero means, one is going on 12:57 being interrupted would zero the field 12:57 FIQ: what happens if a monster turns up mid-occupation? 12:57 being interrupted would zero the field 12:57 then what happens if you control-A? presumably the "last command" field is used to continue the occupation instead? 12:58 ctrl+a, or repeat, would continue the occupation 12:58 since there is still a (frozen) occupation timer 12:58 I recommend looking at the source for cases which test incomplete or interrupted in a situation other than (incomplete && !interrupted) 12:58 if there aren't any, the change is probably safe 12:58 if there are some, then look at the distinction they're checking 13:05 jonadab: I use 'chair' for the abstract and 'chairman' or 'chairwoman' for an actual person 13:06 (also 'guardswoman' in my fantasy writing if the person in the guards happens to be a woman) 13:15 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 13:24 -!- stenno is now known as Guest78924 13:29 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:29 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:37 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 655 points, T:1136, killed by a hobbit 13:44 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:45 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:45 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:50 -!- hf_guest_69393 has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:53 -!- Khor has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:56 raisse: Umm, "guardswoman" is the female form of "guard"? Why not just use "guard"? 14:02 jonadab: in fiction, sometimes you have to make the gender of characters clear to avoid surprising people later 14:04 because I also have 'guardsman' 14:04 and they're not guards, they're members of the Royal Guards which is a different thing 14:05 people who guard something, of any gender = guards 14:05 people who are members of the Royal Guards = guardsmen and guardswomen (I haven't encountered anyone who wasn't either) 14:06 that's not me being cute, because there are trans people in the setting, they just don't happen to be in a visible position in the Royal Guards 14:08 er. non-binary people (trans people would usually be a man or a woman, only not with the obvious bits) 14:09 depends if pre- or post-OP and if even intend to do an op :-) 14:09 this stuff gets complicated so fast :-} 14:09 op no option in that worls 14:09 world* 14:09 there's one person who everybody accepts as a man even though his body looks femae 14:10 gah, I have the worst cold in decades and it's making me sluggish and stupif 14:10 stupid 14:10 also impedes typing apparently 14:10 actually slept for 2 hours in my clothes because I was just lying down with a book for a moment 14:11 and napping doesn't agree with me 14:12 ugh, I know what you mean! 14:13 possible bug in devnull360... I just got fever from a werejackal, so I want to #pray... but once I type "#pray" it won't accept a return 14:13 anyone else had that? 14:14 hm, I usually don't spell it out, just do #p 14:14 will try next time I have occasion to pray 14:14 elenmirie: that sounds like the weird bug where if you played a nethack4-type variant first, nethack3-style variants suddenly have keyboard errors 14:14 well I tried that too... it did the completion but then I can't get it to accept it 14:14 I haven't played nethack4 in this session 14:14 I did pray in my previous game (devnull tribute version) 14:14 or indeed in a while 14:15 oh yes, that's what you said 14:15 but I was recently playing 3.6.1-dev 14:15 maybe I'll get a new session and see if it changes. 14:15 yes, that's what I've been playing too before the devnull version 14:16 new session fixed it 14:18 strange 14:19 yes 14:19 as if there was something n your keyboard buffer blocking it 14:31 oh woops, that werejackal was Wally 14:31 or Waldo or whatever his name is 14:31 but I forgot to check 14:31 I just killed him 14:35 -!- Guest78924 has quit [Changing host] 14:35 -!- Guest78924 has joined #hardfought 14:35 -!- Guest78924 is now known as stenno 14:40 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 14:58 [dnh] rikerw (Mon Hlf Mal Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:2039 15:02 [dnh] rikerw (Mon Hlf Mal Neu), 4698 points, T:2459, killed by a priestess of Chih Sung-tzu 15:02 life lesson 15:02 don't read ID scrolls that may be fire, near a coaligned priest 15:04 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:06 does that apply in real life too? 15:07 [dnh] rikerw (Mon Hlf Mal Neu) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:723 15:07 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08 ais523: any idea what larien is talking about? 15:08 FIQ: wrt keyboard errors? 15:08 the only thing I can think of is that the terminal 15:08 's keyboard is set to an unusual state to start with 15:09 then when NH4 resets the terminal, it resets the keyboard to something NH3 isn't expecting 15:09 (either that, or NH4 isn't terminating cleanly, and it leaves the keyboard in application mode, but that would only affect non-ASCII keys like the arrow keys) 15:10 or as the conversation was about return, maybe the terminal's being reset with respect to \n versus \r handling for newline? 15:10 (again, either because it started in non-default settings and changed on a rest, or because NH4 didn't cleanly terminate) 15:10 if the error happened on /watching/ it would make more sense 15:10 becaue then dgl might send only half the terminal codes it should be 15:11 except what she suggested was irrelevant in my case, because I hadn't been playing any NH4-types in that session, only 3.6.1 dev 15:12 right 15:12 in that case I can only guess what she's talking about 15:12 it may still be a case of incorrect terminal or terminal driver settings, but if so, it's unlikely to be my fault! 15:12 :) 15:13 * ais523 vaguely wonders why translating newline into ASCII 13 or 10 or both is the job of the terminal driver, when almost everything else is done by the actual terminal 15:14 Maybe in the ancient days of yore when actual terminals were physical, they didn't do it. 15:16 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:16 jonadab: right, but handling the difference between terminals was typically considered the job of the application software 15:16 and still is, by things like curses 15:30 isn't it a system thing? 15:31 i.e. unix will use \n as linebreak, and windows \r\n (and old mac would use \r) 15:34 stenno: that's how it works /in files/ 15:34 in most actual terminals, \n moves the cursor downwards, and \r moves to the start of the line 15:35 ^ That's what ASCII spec says they should do. 15:35 yes 15:35 Also works that way on ASCII printers. 15:35 and typewriters :P 15:35 (this split was originally invented because with printer-based terminals, often they couldn't physically process a newline fast enough because the carriage took some time to return, so splitting NEL into CR and LF gave them more time) 15:35 oh? 15:35 i thought it was literally a relic from typewriters 15:35 The reason DOS used full CRLF in files was because it didn't use printer drivers. You could just chuck one of its files out the parallel port and expect the printer to handle it. 15:36 so on UNIX, although it uses \n from the user's point of view, it translates it to \r\n behind the scenes to send it to a terminal 15:36 TIL 15:36 also, typewriters didn't have separate newline and carriage return 15:36 although their return input was often physically hard to press 15:36 no i mean like 15:36 as they didn't have a separate power source to start with, so the user needed to provide enough force to actually do the carriage return 15:36 you had to roll and then do the ching 15:36 lol i am bad at describing that 15:37 I think the actual details of carriage return implementations on typewriters varied a lot, though 15:37 Every typewriter I've ever seen handled them together, though in some cases it was a lever rather than a key, and yes, you had to whack it good. 15:37 i mean mechnical typewriters 15:37 modern typewriters typically have a motor for the carriage return 15:37 https://typewriterreview.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/triumph-perfekt-1-1.jpg?w=723 here 15:37 there is a roll thing just on the right 15:37 but then, modern typewriters often work in what UNIX calls "cooked mode", i.e. allowing the user to enter a whole line before writing any of it, so backspace works 15:37 modern typewriters have a *screen*, but they do not concern us here. 15:38 you roll to pull the paper another line 15:38 come to think of it, this is probably why Ecma-48 has the two different sorts of movement commands 15:38 and then you handle the metal thing on the left and it does carriage return 15:38 it'd allow you to distinguish between backspace as in cancelling the previous keypress 15:38 and backspace as in moving the carriage backwards and overprinting the character you just printed 15:39 so roll for line feed, metal thing for carriage return 15:39 no 'enter' key or w/e 15:40 how i wrote on typewriters when i was a wee lad 15:40 fwiw, I fired up 361-dev again, then saved and went back to devnull360, and did not reproduce the problem. 15:40 stenno: In general, the big metal lever also advanced the roll one line. 15:41 so I'd chalk it up to mystery for now 15:44 hmm maybe i misremember then.. 15:48 totally unrelated and also to distract from my wrong talking, i am watching a minecraft mod spotlight and this guy implemented a magicbane 15:48 and he even talks about it coming from nethack 15:48 that its a nethack reference 15:49 does it have all the magicbane special effects? 15:50 50% chance of Confusion, Blindness, SLowness, Weakness 15:50 no such thing as 'magic cancellation' in minecraft :P 15:51 https://youtu.be/m7pwkcZquz0?t=6m23s 15:52 mod creator is called 'P3pp3rF1y 15:54 4.5 million total downloads, not too bad 15:54 spread the word 16:00 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:10 stenno: Yes, someone in #nethack was recently trying to tell me that nobody's ever heard of NetHack except for really old Unix nerds. I ain't buyin' it. 16:11 I'm only middle-aged, started on DOS, and knew what NetHack was decades before I ever played it. 16:12 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 16:12 i might have first read about nethack when 3.4.3 was released 16:12 (and also started playing it) 16:13 I think I knew what it was before that. 16:13 At least in general terms. 16:13 yeah i heard about it before i played it 16:13 it wasn't what i expected it was 16:13 Oh, yeah, 343 wasn't released until 2003. I had my current job by then. 16:14 I knew what NetHack was back in college. 16:14 I mean, not all the detail, obviously. 16:15 But I knew it was it was a dungeon exploration game with hitpoints and stuff. 16:15 i thought it was an actual game about hacking 16:15 Didn't know there were public servers. (NOt sure if there _were_ back then, actually. This was mid nineties.) 16:15 pretty disappointed when i learned it was an adventure 16:15 fantasy game, rather 16:15 Heh. 16:18 yeeees and now i know where i played it first 16:18 when i did my first steps with linux in about 2004 16:18 with.... knoppix 16:19 oooh yeah 16:20 I was finally convinced to try playing it after it was reviewed very positively on Dan's Data. 16:20 Which, Dan's Data was waning by then, but it used to be a pretty fun-to-read review site. 16:21 mm for me it was reading about it on bash.org 16:21 Let's see.. that review was posted clear back in September 2011. So I've been playing for nearly six years already? Doesn't seem that long. 16:21 jonadab: I heard about nethack before I started messing with linux, but never tried it out 16:21 in 2009ish 16:22 for me it would've been around 2004 or 2005 16:22 I *heard* about NetHack by 1995, pretty sure. 16:22 I think I even downloaded a version of it for Windows 3.1 at one point, and tried playing for like two minutes on one of the computers in the school computer lab. 16:23 But I don't count that as starting to play, because I didn't keep going. 16:25 i know i played it when i still lived with my parents 16:25 and i moved out in 2007 17:00 if I'm fire resistant, can confidently kill anythng that attacks me, and have ditched any flammable things, are magic traps safe to farm from? 17:01 Relatively 17:01 !who 17:01 Tarmunora_: rikerw [dnh] 17:01 !whereis rikerw 17:01 Tarmunora_: rikerw [dnh]: (Mon Hlf Mal Neu) T:4437 The Gnomish Mines level: 10 17:02 I was in the mines 17:02 got like 3 levels out of it 17:02 the only anonying things were swarms of zombies, tengu and bat 17:02 just the reviving 17:03 got a artifact out of it oddly enough 17:04 Which one? 17:06 nodensfork 17:06 thoroughly useless 17:06 for me at least 17:06 maybe useful for ana on quest, but not for a monk in the mines 17:07 Keep it for neutral quest 17:07 Warning is nice 17:07 oh true 17:07 was going to keep it anyway 17:07 if only to donate to the unknown god 17:07 Do you remember to name Sting/Grimtooth/Orcrist when possible? 17:07 Also the priests of an unknown god are non-functional currently 17:08 Except for giving binders the spirit seal 17:08 ah 17:08 what about sting? 17:08 At least, I think they are. I'll have to bug Nero aobut it 17:08 I know you can name them to make getting the binder seal easier 17:09 Only wished arts count against wishing 17:09 wait what 17:09 really? 17:09 And only wished+gifted count against gifting 17:09 I thought it was any arts 17:09 I knew that 17:09 Nope 17:09 but that's great news 17:09 That's why the unknown god is (iirc) non-functional 17:09 so the ones on the ground are thoroughly unimporatant? 17:09 ah ok 17:09 because it doesn't matter >.> 17:09 that's cool though, thanks 17:09 I'll name sting/orccrist next I can 17:10 Naming sting/etc. is a good idea for warning 17:10 And Grimtooth is really nice. Warns of humans, elves, dwarves, and angels 17:11 ah cool 17:11 sting might be nice if I get balrog's end at the end of the mines 17:19 couldn't find a crude dagger, but apparently small ones work just as well 17:22 You could have a gigantic silver orcrist (if you wished for a gigantic silver elven broadsword) 17:23 I make no promises on whether you would want to though 17:39 I don't think I want to 17:39 I do like having it as small though, weighs less 17:54 -!- lorimer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09 are plain gauntlets special in any way? 18:09 o-O 18:19 No 18:23 -!- lorimer has joined #hardfought 18:28 tarmunora: I was just confused, I didn't know those were a thing 18:28 I thought the only metal gauntlets were orihalcyon and power 18:29 is it worth it for a monk to skip the role quest entirely (dnh)? 18:29 getting the silver key is kinda easier than beating kaen 18:39 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:48 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:54 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 18:58 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:08 -!- Jendic has joined #hardfought 19:14 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 19:18 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:21 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 19:21 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 19:34 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 19:39 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:54 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 20:11 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 20:30 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 20:31 * K2-webirc waves 20:31 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:32 !tell elenmirie was reading backscroll, I saw that exact same behavior with the devnull port earlier today. game wouldn't accept enter/return. had to save and log back in to get it to behave 20:32 Will do, K2-webirc! 20:38 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 20:38 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 20:40 hey Grasshopper 20:46 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 20:52 what is the devnull competition? 20:52 iirc it's a vanilla tournament with special challenges 20:52 and awards for things like most ascensions 20:52 the special part is the challenges: you can't do specific actions until the challenge is completed 20:53 i.e. you can't push boulders (pushing the first one will trigger a prompt) until you complete a special level 20:53 they're optional though, you can just decline 20:53 i know i played a little last year 20:53 right 20:53 it has all the annoying prompts 20:54 lel 21:02 [dnh] rikerw (Mon Hlf Mal Neu), 114094 points, T:14831, killed by a shark 21:02 pro tip 21:02 paralysis is bad 21:03 RIP 21:04 alas 21:04 What next? 21:04 ? 21:04 Droven Wizard is fun 21:04 for me? I'm trying dwarf noble 21:04 nero: I can't do drow wizard 21:04 I can't do wizard if it's not inc 21:04 it's just so ridiculously OP/fun 21:05 Droven priest is nice 21:05 don't you have the highest scoring ascension as drow wiz nero? 21:05 Yup! 21:05 tarmunora: actually, my monk found an old hedrow priest bones in the mines :D 21:05 I plan on abusing a little bug and beating that score though 21:05 I choked to death on a brown mold corpse >.> 21:05 Have you tried Incantifier Barbarian? It's almost as good a spellcaster as wizard, but you get insane melee. 21:05 I've briefly tried that 21:05 Clockwork binder 21:05 Go big or go home 21:05 iirc allihaveismymind ascended that once 21:06 it was on r/nethack a while ago 21:06 tarmunora: eh not in the mood for binders 21:06 imma try dwarf knight though, I want to see how abuseable the quest is 21:06 if I kill smaug, and then get to bolg, and blessed geno 'o' 21:06 >.> 21:06 The Black Arrow is... silly 21:06 ugh I need to get around to doing the help descriptions for binders 21:06 yes 21:06 tarmunora: eh whatever 21:06 top tier throwing weapon 21:06 I feel like it's a good idea (instakill smaug arrow) but bad implementation 21:06 doesn't it break easily? 21:07 Nope 21:07 oh 21:07 Never breaks, (almost?) never misses when thrown by hand 21:07 well 21:07 that's dumb af 21:07 Only artifact that breaks is the spoon-of-one-hit-killing 21:07 I thought it broke instantly 21:07 tarmunora: tha'ts not in dnh though right 21:07 please tell me it's not 21:07 It is 21:07 oh my god 21:07 Houchou. It's there, but unwishable 21:07 Unwishable, but can generate 21:07 Well, can be gifted, I think 21:07 Maybe 21:07 Correct! 21:07 ? 21:07 oh 21:07 sigh 21:08 nero: are you like the minidev for dng? 21:08 *dnh 21:08 eh, a little I guess 21:08 > Grants +1d5 to hit and 2x damage 21:08 for the convict QA 21:08 .. that's horrible since it only does like 1d1 anyway 21:08 that's a grand total of: 2 damage 21:08 I do a *ton* of source-diving and I've done some patches and bugfixes 21:09 double damage is after enchantment though 21:09 ah cool 21:09 tarmunora: so we're talking max 10 damage 21:09 He did the beastiary 21:09 Sometimes I get a little ambitious but I do try to leave actual features to Chris 21:09 or 14 21:09 *11, 15 21:09 And the spell/ward lookup 21:09 ah cool 21:09 that's really nice 21:09 He tried to get me to do a spirit power lookup 21:10 But I'm too lazy :/ 21:10 heh 21:10 I've made a couple edits to the binder page on the wiki 21:10 nothing big tho 21:10 Go for it when you see outdated/missing things! 21:10 :D 21:10 As have I, fixing up some endgame spirit things 21:11 Such as numina not granting the council full spirit list 21:11 * Tarmunora_ grumbles 21:11 ? 21:12 The level 30 spirit used to give the crowning spirit's power access to the full spirit list, regardless of if you had bound them previously 21:12 Then Chris_ANG nerfed it 21:12 random bug(?): you can't #loot gold from pets 21:13 tarmunora: ah I see 21:13 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 21:13 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 21:13 -!- Grassy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:15 Fun fact: There currently exists a duplication bug for precious gemstones 21:15 But I'll let you figure it out on your own :P 21:16 I don't need to duplicate them >.> 21:16 the only thing they're good for is selling 21:16 and I can do that just fine without 21:16 And luck farming 21:16 And gem alchemy 21:16 lol 21:16 !whereis rikerw 21:16 Tarmunora_: rikerw [dnh]: (Dna-Kni Dwa Mal Law) T:770 The Dungeons of Doom level: 3 21:16 frogot thos 21:16 *those 21:17 I just got 2 magic harps 21:17 from shop 21:17 :D 21:17 magic flute too 21:17 Meh. Harps are heavy 21:17 but that's useless 21:17 all my knight runs have died to the keter 21:17 >:U 21:18 Don't catiff 21:18 I try not to 21:18 I do it accidnetlaly sometims 21:18 I can't spell 21:18 Tarmunora_: does this exist outside dnh? 21:18 Spell-cast magic missiles! They won't cause catiff penalties 21:18 my other problem with knights: dwarf knights are hte only interesting ones, but they have a peacful mines 21:18 nero: hm really? 21:18 I recall hearing about that 21:18 FIQ: Not a hope 21:19 spells don't count 21:19 fiq: likely has something to do with abusing #loot 21:19 FIQ: unless Amy_BSOD stole some dnh code recently :P 21:19 if it does, please tell so I can address it 21:19 ah 21:19 ok 21:20 magic harps are cool 21:20 yes 21:20 you can tame stuff 21:20 I'm taking a quick break now 21:20 need to do hw, it's due tomorrow morning 21:21 tarmunora_: any flaw in my thinking of blessed geno 'o'? 21:21 for dwarf knight quest 21:21 it's the one w/ bolg and his swarm 21:21 yes 21:21 Yup 21:21 obviously, only geno on the level, but anything else? 21:21 the fact that geno doesn't work for quest 21:21 what? 21:21 Yuuuup 21:21 oh really? dangit 21:21 TIL 21:21 I've never tried 21:21 oh well, magic missile maybe then 21:21 FIQ: Is that dnethack-specific? 21:22 yes 21:22 Or are we talking about the nemesis? 21:22 Ah. 21:22 Ok. 21:22 no 21:22 that makes sense why genoing T didn't stop the barb msg spam 21:22 I was wondering that 21:22 rikersan: There's an old joke about blessed genociding H before doing the Valkyrie quest. 21:22 I half-think it's aimed at anachrononauts being unable to genocide (master) mind flayers for their quest 21:22 haha 21:22 jondab: but tha'ts useless 21:23 no 21:23 giants can be eaten for strength 21:23 much much worse than useless 21:23 rikersan: It's worse than that. 21:23 ? 21:23 why? 21:23 it replaces the random giants with titans 21:23 There's one H that's not genocideable. 21:23 hahaha 21:23 I forgot that 21:23 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 1469 points, T:2455, killed by a fox 21:23 I knew they weren't geno but I frogot it would replace with other H not random 21:23 nero: mind flayers aren't the worst part of that quest 21:23 Right, the level just says "use any H". 21:24 and this will likely create a titanstorm 21:24 it's the horrifying message spam 21:24 like how you can get archonstorms in plane of fire 21:24 because plenty of Hs are nasties 21:24 yes 21:24 so they get replaced by random monsters 21:24 I ended up with an archonstorm once 21:24 it wasn't pretty 21:24 which tend to become more titans 21:25 Doesn't Summon Nasties also bypass extinction? 21:25 yes iirc 21:25 just not geno 21:25 not for normal monsters 21:25 so once 120 is generate 21:25 d 21:25 you wont get any more titans 21:25 OH, bummer. 21:26 I was hoping to kill 255 of them. 21:26 turn them undead 21:26 doesn't killing rodney 128 times stop him? 21:26 or is it 250 21:26 no 21:26 hm ok 21:26 not 255 either 21:26 I don't think anything stops Rodney. 21:26 I thought I read that on a extinctionist post 21:26 genociding rodney in fiqhack will stop his harassments 21:27 You can only get 255 recorded kills. 21:27 fiq: you can do that what 21:27 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 21:27 by exploiting the AI 21:27 also: dnethack zombies are the dumbest thing ever 21:27 confuse rodney 21:27 the valley is horrible 21:27 for message spam ;-; 21:27 fiq: heh nice 21:27 and give him uncursed genocide 21:27 If there's one monster that shouldn't be genocideable, it's Rodney. 21:28 mae sure his hp is low 21:28 why? 21:28 to make him use it 21:28 jonadab: you can always genocide yourself 21:28 no exceptions 21:28 Ah. 21:28 I want to pull it off at some point 21:29 but I've had a hard time even in wizmde 21:29 *wizmode 21:29 fiqhack monsters also pick up scrolls like that right 21:29 they'll use anything against you 21:29 rikersan: fh monsters have autopickup exceptions 21:29 and they'll use everything, yeah 21:29 request: hallucination potions have a y/n prompt before quaffing 21:29 [dnh] rikerw (Kni Dwa Mal Law), 2275 points, T:1575, quit 21:29 there is a few things they don't use 21:30 I'm not dealing with that stuff 21:30 What stuff? 21:30 hallu 21:30 as early character 21:30 because i'm dumb and quaff id 21:30 So you... quit? 21:30 but that's because it makes no sense (earth), redundant (object detection) or just plain unfinished (levitation sources, locking, jumping) 21:30 yes, I also had a nymph with my gear so eh 21:31 what's BR in the status bar? 21:31 Breath 21:31 next to pw and AC 21:31 breath level 21:31 what's that do? 21:31 oh for swimming? 21:31 Used for swimming, drowning, and amulets of strangulation 21:31 yes 21:31 cool 21:31 So giant eels are rarely instadeath 21:31 Useful for plane of water 21:32 where flight/levitation does NOT cut it 21:32 is it just me or is my drow priest regening pw insanely fast 21:32 like 1 per 2 turns 21:32 (although krakens however will gladly crush the air out of your lungs...) 21:32 Not just you 21:32 dnh ports fh pw regen 21:32 is that normal? 21:32 which works how 21:32 but I think chris nerfed it a bit 21:32 much faster 21:33 I don't know dnh pw regen details, but the fh ones it was based off is on the fh wiki article 21:33 ah k 21:33 Drow priests get nice max PW as well 21:33 yes 21:34 That, or I just don't play casters enough to know what a good max Pw is 21:34 But I had >600 before level 25 iirc 21:34 Wizards: +10 per 30 turns 21:34 Healer or Priest: +6 per 30 turns 21:34 Valkyrie or Monk: +3 per 30 turns 21:34 ah 21:35 Droven wizards and priests are nice in that they have the Pw regen to use their racial ability often 21:35 yes 21:35 Droven nobles just get a chunk of fossilite dark 21:35 seriously, I need to go afk now 21:36 Naaaah 21:36 who gets shadowlanders torches again? 21:36 Rangers 21:36 tarmunora_: ;-; my bio grade depends on this 21:36 Maybe rogues 21:36 ok drow rogues are dumb 21:36 Ew, the squishy science :P 21:36 tarmunora: I'm literally learning that the mitochondria is the powerhosue of the cell 21:37 I'm assuming high school bio? 21:37 yep 21:37 T H E M I T O C H O N D R I A I S T H E P O W E R H O U S E O F T H E C E L L 21:37 how much effort did that take 21:37 There, memorize that and get an A+ 21:38 uh 21:38 20 seconds of spacebar and capslock 21:38 I also need to know that active transport is used in cells too 21:38 :p 21:38 but seriously, let me fill this out and I'll be back ~~~to do no productive work~~~ 21:38 good luck, have fun 21:38 muahahahaaa 21:39 how does irc even do formatting 21:39 I'm writing a fluid dynamics lab at the moment, so you're in good company :) 21:39 ah cool 21:39 Nero is a neeeeeeerd! 21:39 grad school? or professor 21:39 that's kewl 21:39 fluid dynamics looks interesting 21:39 undergrad 21:40 I am not doing what I should do 21:40 I shall be back 21:40 once I have done what I should do 21:43 [4k] Shilpa (nevada) (Mon Hum Fem Cha), 8481 points, T:1873, killed by a soldier ant 21:46 -!- K2-webirc has left #hardfought 21:48 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 21:48 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 22:00 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:02 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 22:08 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 22:11 how often does chris check things like the dnh bugs page? 22:16 When is isn't dead? 22:16 *is -> he 22:16 kek 22:17 No clue, really. But feel free to use "!tell Chris_ANG " on this channel 22:17 hm k 22:17 And make him read 100 lines of tells 22:17 searching the transcripts, he hasn't been here in a bit 22:17 is he more active on #ascension.run? 22:21 do zombies versions of monsters have different stats that the standard form? 22:21 in dnh 22:22 @d?gnome 22:22 oh there's no bot in this channel 22:23 some to #ascension.run or #em.slashem.me 22:24 They do 22:24 They are slower (min speed 6), resist blunt and pierce, and lose many kinds of special attacks 22:24 ah ok 22:24 Use the farlook (:) command to see monster stats 22:24 yeah this isn't active game though 22:24 Mmh 22:25 Tarmunora_: farlook is ; not : 22:25 I was just recalling a occurence of zombie riding pseudragon, still tame 22:25 Oh, is it? 22:25 was wondering if it had any differences 22:25 Been a week or 2 since I really played 22:25 this was a while ago, I died to the keter soon after 22:25 but it was rideable and everything 22:25 I didn't notice any lack of speed, but iirc they're only at speed 9 anyway so 22:25 Bug nero for his python scripts :P 22:25 and it still had the breath wep (but so do hlf zombies) 22:26 what are his scripts? 22:26 oh, the auto-generate monster stats ones? 22:26 Speed 12 now 22:26 Robust monster lookup. Doesn't have zombies yet iirc 22:26 So a zombie version *should* have 6 speed 22:26 hm ok 22:26 again this was a while ago 22:26 there's an irc bot that also has monster lookups 22:26 so it's easier to use 22:27 but I enjoyed it for it's infinite revivification 22:27 And it shouldn't have had breath attacks either... 22:27 it did 22:27 this was a while ago like I said though 22:27 Is pinobot up to date yet? 22:27 msg pinoclone with @d?bla for monster bla in dnethack 22:27 @?bla for un 22:27 older version I installed locally 22:27 Pinoclone, that is 22:27 @v? for vanilla 22:27 nero: why wouldn't it? 22:27 Tarmunora_: yes 22:27 also it has zombies 22:27 Huh, last I heard it was out of date 22:27 The more you know 22:28 if it's out of date then it's Adeon's fault 22:28 rikersan: zombification is supposed to make changes to a monster's stats and attacks 22:28 Still, sometimes you just want to look up a list of all monsters that are huge + valid polyforms + 2 weapon attacks 22:28 nero: yeah, but a breath attack is also implemented for zombies 22:28 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 1704 points, T:1750, killed by a monster (sylphie) 22:30 I don't have the sources open ATM, but I'm pretty sure breath attacks are blacklisted for derived undead. 22:30 anyway, I like the concept of killed by zombie -> becomes zombie 22:30 but it's quite annoying 22:30 So no halfdragon zombie breaths, but halfdragon mummy breaths are fair game. 22:30 ah I see 22:31 mummies don't revive/spread right 22:31 Correct 22:31 cool 22:31 (yet.) 22:31 >.> 22:31 also: it's annoying having any undead that leaves corpses revive 22:31 because nazguls always seem to leave corpses 22:31 despite the wiki saying they never do 22:32 Nazguls are supposed to be nearly impossible to get rid of in dnethack 22:32 >:U 22:32 they certainly are 22:32 If you try to pick up their corpse, they revive like a rider :) 22:32 along with shades 22:32 who don't need to have a corpse to revive 22:32 nero: yep noticed that 22:32 I thought it was normal but if it was because of the pick up 22:32 nazgul like astral plane riders a bit 22:33 pinoclone is totally not working with derived undead for me 22:33 does dnethack buff the player too to let you deal with these tough late-game monsters? 22:33 not the player always 22:33 the armor/weapons 22:33 the good dnethack artifacts are ridiculously OP 22:33 and crystal plate mail gives +30 ac when fully enchanted 22:34 like shambala? 22:34 yep 22:34 Quicksilver 22:34 3 bonus weapon attacks 22:34 I did the math once, it's possibly to get like -100 AC in-game 22:34 without wizard mode 22:34 Nero hit the cap once 22:34 how? 22:34 almost everyone wishes for shambala so it must be the most overpowered 22:34 Lightsabre form for a free -30 22:34 it is 22:34 what? 22:34 I've not seen taht one lol 22:35 Shambhala is needed for the extra carry cap. 22:35 yep 22:35 So you can carry around all yuor junk + CPM 22:35 crystal gear, max enchant, cloak of protection, and shambhala is like -90 iirc 22:35 I rememver that it also does something else 22:35 plus 15 for protection 22:35 bug_sniper: invoke for enlightenment, read (with crystal body armor/no body armor) for cure ill like unihorn 22:36 adds enchantment to cha if nothing is worn over it 22:36 adds enchant to wis if anythign is 22:36 My setup for -128 AC included a few +14 pieces of gear, which are no longer obtainable. 22:36 those aren't as OP though 22:36 nero: ah okay 22:36 it's still possible for +14 cpm tho 22:36 right? 22:36 +7 22:36 But CPM enchantment counts double 22:36 ah 22:36 oh 22:36 So does crystal sword 22:36 I thought it still enchanted twice as fast 22:36 do you use that ot just the extra carrying capacity? 22:37 Which is still +9 22:37 *or 22:37 tarmunora: that doesn't exchant to +9? 22:37 or it counts for +18 22:37 dayum 22:38 And chaotic elves (best for a noble) get a nice *double damage* crystal sword from crowning 22:38 Let that sink in. 22:38 testing with an old version really quick 22:38 tarmunora: lol rip 22:38 I should try that 22:38 (2d12+18)*2 vs. large 22:38 I ran the numbers on it. It gets worse if you replace the 2x damage with +d50. 22:39 And quicksilver is comperable iirc 22:39 Especially on silver-hating 22:39 isn't that silvered? 22:39 the sword? 22:39 Yes 22:39 lol 22:40 It also grants reflection when wielded. 22:40 quick math gives 84 AC from all crystal gear, a +7 t-shirt, and +5 cloak of protection 22:40 assuming the stock AC is the same for crystal gear as it was a while ago 22:41 Switch the crystal shield for a gigantic +7 elven shield. It's worth 14 points of AC :P 22:41 what 22:41 oh 22:41 gigantic gear stacks with AC? 22:41 Make the Cloak of Protection a Mantle of Heaven of Protection 22:41 *sized gear stacks 22:41 lol 22:41 rikersan: only for shields 22:41 +7 with doubled AC 22:42 nice 22:42 nero: huh cool 22:42 and it is relative to your size 22:42 ah 22:42 so becoming a grid bug would give much AC 22:42 so if you are a large+ monster, you get worse AC from a normal sized shield. 22:42 So as a noble your cloak can give 20(!) AC 22:42 that's cool 22:42 tarmunora: this is not OP at all 22:43 dNethack is all about the OP 22:43 yes 22:44 so I'm seeing 97 AC for maxed gear 22:45 Don't forget maintained protection 22:45 And Shien lightsaber form 22:45 yes 22:45 and dex bonus 22:45 not applicable nvm 22:46 is there a limited on mantained protection? 22:46 or same as protection spell otherwise 22:46 Wait, you can't use the lightsabre forme 22:46 Maintained protection is just keepeing it on full-blast 22:46 I know 22:46 +10 to AC thereabouts? 22:47 I do'nt think so 22:47 the wiki for protection spell says it maxes at 5 22:47 if you already have <-19 AC 22:47 Wiki shmiki 22:47 +10 for 10-19 22:47 dnethack changed stuff 22:47 true 22:47 I think 22:47 *s/changed/broke/ 22:47 I'll check later 22:47 I still haven't finished hw 22:47 Plus 2 +5 =oProtection 22:47 for 10 more AC 22:48 oh, interesting: looks like you may be able to abuse this 22:48 if it grants +20 AC max, if you have 10 at the casting 22:48 and then you put on the gear 22:48 anyway, it's definitely possible to hit -128 ac 22:48 97 + 15 + 10 + 5 is 127 right there 22:49 Also, lance of longinus grants +enchantment to AC 22:49 ooh true 22:49 As does Tobiume 22:49 cosmos grants extra AC too, but tha'ts not possible for non-binders 22:49 since it's an alignment spirit 22:49 Mhm 22:50 And we're using the a Nobles Quest art for the cloak of protection, right? 22:50 yep 22:50 Echidna modifies AC based on con 22:50 it's def possible to hit -128, the question is how possible is that in a game 22:51 (con-10)/2 22:51 tl;dr: dnethack is broken 22:51 So 7, with 24-25 con (ogresmasher) 22:51 next up: how much damage is possible 22:51 Clockworks with the armour plating upgrade get 10 free 22:51 but that's not possible for the noble cloak 22:51 As do half-dragons 22:51 as the cloak is QA not first gift 22:52 True 22:52 wonder if there's anyway to break the dex bonus 22:52 and get it when you shouldn't 22:53 Female neutral drow noble gets claws of the revenancer 22:53 for 5 free AC 22:53 ooh, for damage: looks like the sceptre of lolth is OP 22:53 Small change 22:53 is that better than +7 crystal gauntlets? 22:53 Er, puny damage 22:53 Yeah 22:53 +7 crystal is 10 AC 22:53 ...? 22:54 it's 16 base 22:54 +7x2 = 14 22:54 right? 22:54 Only CPM gets doubled enchantment 22:54 oh gauntelts 22:54 nvm I'm an idiot 22:54 But revenacner takes up a ring slot, nvm 22:54 the +5 is cancelled out by losing the =oProtect 22:54 (OotAoS: -5) (High Elven Plate: -12 -3 -7) (Stormhelm: -1 -7) (Speed Boots: -1 -5) (Premium Heart: -1 -7) (Shambhala: -0 -7) (Random Cloak: -1 -5) (Elven Shield: -14) (Soresu: -30) (Divine: -10) (Ring: -5) (Ring: -5) (Spell: -10). 22:55 sceptre of lolth in greatsword form is 1d18/1d30 x 2, +7 is up to 54 damage 22:55 =-136 AC 22:55 no silver though 22:55 nero: ootAos? 22:55 Orc of the Ages of Stars 22:55 ah 22:55 and that is very possible and a good build! 22:55 why's soresu grant -30 22:55 nobody tell chris 22:55 :p 22:55 oh I see 22:55 25 INT + 25 DEX 22:55 lol, 56 max damage 22:55 missed soresu AC 22:55 yea 22:56 I only say the "reroll neg ac" bit 22:56 tarmonura: yeah I still think barb w/ quicksilver is better 22:56 Aryvelahr Kerym LAUGHS 22:56 Barb and quicksilver gets diminishing returns 22:56 Priest is better 22:56 really? 22:56 huh 22:56 +d30 on each hit 22:56 O_O 22:56 why? 22:56 Priests get +d(level) damage on artifact hits 22:57 ah, I frogot the crystal sword +9 bonus for enchant 22:57 Polyself into a OotAoS and offhand Grimtooth for 4 more artifact hits 22:57 only included +7 22:57 Priest, polyselfed into a marilith, 2weaponing blessed +7 Quicksilver and blessed +7 Demonbane, versus some silver-hating demon. 22:57 Or that 22:57 Y'know, the extreme 22:57 tarmunora: nero is destroying both our suggestions 22:58 nero: is demonbane really worse than the elf crystal sword? 22:58 aryvelahr 22:58 *better htan 22:58 It can be offhanded 22:58 oh I see 22:58 You can offhand Demonbane, albeit with a -20 tohit penalty 22:58 I feel it may be too heavy thouh 22:58 Would a tiny silver orcrist be enough? 22:58 *light enough 22:59 less damage 22:59 or same amount 22:59 huh 22:59 Tarmunora_: no way. Orcrist is an elven broadsword base. 22:59 er hold on, maybe. 22:59 why's that matter 22:59 elven broadsword is respectable 22:59 hmm. 22:59 Nope, that weighs 29 23:00 Still too heavy for a priest to offhand 23:00 Silver sting? 23:00 Silver Grimtooth! 23:00 That would work 23:00 No double damage, but no -20 to-hit either 23:01 that doesn't deal demon damage though 23:01 only elvses and humans 23:02 > elvses 23:02 tha'ts like gollum saying "elves" 23:02 okay, enough silliness from me for now. Back to work. 23:02 have fun 23:02 [nd] Eleven (Arc Hum Mal Neu), 1536 points, T:3392, killed by a rabid rat 23:02 don't die 23:03 Silver, though 23:03 still not great 23:03 So +d20, and an artifact, so another +d30 23:04 orcish dagger is pretty weak anyway 23:04 You use it for the bonuses 23:04 wait priests get d30 for any artifact? 23:04 Yuuuuuuup 23:04 what hte fuck 23:04 that's dumb 23:04 .... we're having a discussion about having -136 ac that's not even close to other dnh dumb 23:05 !tell Chris_ANG Are silver sabres really supposed to weigh 46 units? 23:05 Will do, Tarmunora_! 23:05 does irl silver weigh that much more than iron? 23:06 huh a bit more 23:06 3 g/cm# 23:06 it weighs about twice as much in dnethack, as least for daggers 23:06 I had to drop 2 plain daggers and 3 small ones to carry 3 silver ones without being burdened 23:06 1.332 23:06 Ratio of silver density to iron density 23:07 yeah that seems wrong 23:07 I dunno 23:07 (according to wolfram alpha) 23:07 I'm not sure the numbers for small wep weights 23:09 dNethack's ratio is 1.325 23:09 (for dwarvish mattocks) 23:10 ... 23:10 [nd] Eleven (Sam Hum Fem Law), 48 points, T:497, killed by a guard 23:10 Wish for dagger. 1 weight 23:10 Wish for iron dagger. 10 weight 23:11 Wish for silver dagger, 13 weight 23:11 . . . 23:11 hm 23:11 that doesn't make sense 23:12 I mean that math makes sense 23:12 pj 23:12 *oh 23:12 dagger != iron dagger 23:12 so silver daggers weight 13x more than standard daggers, as standard dagger weights aren't right 23:20 tl;dr Weight for rematerialed stuff is buggy right now 23:22 *sigh* 23:22 the bug is that daggers are for some reason weighing 1 unit 23:22 they ought to weigh 10 each 23:23 but every "dagger" being generated in the dungeon is weighing 1 and I don't know why yet. 23:23 but not silver ones 23:24 Crude weighs 10 23:34 0.063* their natural weight 23:34 odd 23:34 oh and look. Modifying daggers to weigh 1000 each in the sources makes a 'normal' dagger weigh 63 units. Fun! 23:34 Whee! 23:35 looks like daggers are being made of fencepost. 23:36 I could have guessed that 23:36 *smashes forehead into keyboard* 23:37 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 2548 points, T:1730, killed by a bolt of fire 23:39 NeroOneTrueKing right about now: https://i.imgur.com/jrMwlkO.gifv 23:40 YES FOUND IT 23:41 fixed in my version :P 23:42 time to make a pull request that will be noticed in ~8 months 23:43 lol 23:46 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:47 rikersan: thank you for the bug report 23:48 nero: "fencepost" 23:48 why is that even a material 23:49 it was to fix an off-by-one error 23:49 is it possible to ping K2 or tangles and have them fix it on the server? 23:49 or do they use an automagically grabbed copy of chris's repo 23:50 I don't know; that would be a question for the aforementioned people 23:50 They can 23:50 But it's a non-critical fix 23:50 So it can honestly wait 23:51 true 23:51 have there been any critical fixes recently? 23:52 Nah 23:52 also, nero: crashed game earlier, dropped 32k gold on stairs with 3 pets standing within 3 squares of me 23:52 in the big room (I think) 23:52 I'm not sure what of that matters but eh 23:52 it was downstairs 23:53 hmm okay. First I've heard of something like that happening, so let me know if you reproduce it 23:54 okay 23:54 !pom 23:54 raisse: The moon is at first quarter; full moon in 8 days.