00:01 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 00:01 -!- stenno is now known as Guest26884 00:03 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 2110 points, T:1979, killed by a poisonous corpse 00:03 the vorpal bug doesnt appear to exist in sporkhack 00:03 i beheaded a monster 00:04 then threw vorpal blade at next montser. it hit but didnt decapitate 00:07 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 80 points, T:139, killed by a monster (emu) 00:08 Maybe SporkHack does not let you decapitate monsters with a thrown Vorpie? 00:08 perhaps 00:08 i havent looked at the code, just testing in wiz mode 00:09 ah i see 00:09 it does work in sporkhack 00:09 heh 00:10 hmm 00:11 i threw it up in the air, it landed on my head but did not decapitate 00:12 yeah 14 decapitations in a row 00:13 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 00:13 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 00:19 hmm 00:19 not working in grunthack 00:20 now its working 00:20 i guess when you score the hit, it has to be a high roll 00:21 yup 00:21 and if you happen to have a stack of vorpal daggers in gh... 00:21 rapid fire one shot one kill on most everything 00:22 ok bed time. i will see about patching both variant tomorrow 00:22 gnite all 01:22 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 1731 points, T:1205, quit 01:26 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 0 points, T:3, killed by foolishly taking off a zipper boot 01:28 -!- notym has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:39 !tell k2 I can help tonight (say 4-5 hours from now) with the patching if you need it. We should do 3.4.3-nao and dNethack as well. 01:39 Will do, Tangles! 01:43 !tell FIQ you have 4-5 hours to ascend grunt before the exploit is patched :) 01:43 Will do, Tangles! 01:45 oh come on, the first time in its existence that Vorpy's been useful and you declare it a bug and patch it? :-) 01:45 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-25 19:44 EDT: did you hear about vorpal blade exploit 01:45 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-25 20:22 EDT: I pushed a fix to the bug, it is fiqhack commit 6fe82ef 01:45 lol 01:46 so that fix requires changing all calls to hmon()? 01:47 I use vorpy in my recent spork ascension (being that the only way to get a decent artifact is by crowning). If only I'd kown.... 01:47 *known 01:47 LarienTelrunya: that's how I typically fix such things in NH4 globals purge 01:48 (this was discovered, IIRC, during a vanilla equivalent of globals-purge by a NetHack porter) 01:50 well I'll have to fix it for slex too, then; hopefully the FIQhack version of the fix will apply without requiring too many changes ;) 01:53 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 718 points, T:1118, killed by a monster (mink) 01:58 jonadab: why do you dislike makedefs so much? 02:02 LarienTelrunya: makedefs a) forces the compile to proceed in multiple stages (you can't just do a compile-all-the-source-files together compile) and b) makes cross-compilation hard because it has to run a compiled executable during the compile process, something which can't be done if your compiler targets a different architecture 02:03 really? I always just viewed it as "if you changed stuff like objects.c or monst.c, makedefs does its thing before the actual source files get compiled" 02:04 and the PM_(some foo) entries are used in many places of the code! 02:05 ais523: oh I found the bug hilarious 02:05 FIQ: Message from Tangles at 2017-09-26 01:43 EDT: you have 4-5 hours to ascend grunt before the exploit is patched :) 02:05 but it'd need a fix anyway eventually 02:05 I'm trying to figure out if it's even broken 02:06 given that you a) need Vorpy (which means spending one method-of-getting-artifacts which would normally be used on something better), b) have to turn it off to defeat anything without a head, c) have to pick up Vorpy again after each throw 02:07 although I guess it's a bit comparable to Houchou from vanilla Slash'EM 02:07 LarienTelrunya: how many Houchou equivalents does slex have? 02:07 only the original one, but it has a couple more artifacts that can behead 02:07 so I guess all of those are exploitable with that bug 02:08 EPI: if a monster has Vorpal Blade, it can use the dieroll bug to decapitate you at range. 02:10 so the bug really means that if your last melee attack was completely off, and you then start using ranged attacks, they will all have bad to-hit as well??? 02:11 no, this is purely for Vorpy's trigger 02:11 basically the way it works is, the to-hit code tells the artifact code how good the hit was 02:11 so Vorpy knows whether to trigger 02:12 howver, the thrown-weapon-to-hit code /doesn't/ tell the artifact code how good the hit was 02:12 so it just uses the last number it saw 02:12 it still rolls the hit, just forgets to communicate it 02:12 and this is why global variables suck :-( 02:12 ah, but for the actual to-hit chances of the throw, a number is correctly rolled each time? 02:12 should also work for tsurugi then? 02:13 LarienTelrunya: right 02:13 Guest26884: does the tsurugi work when thrown? if so, I'd expect it to 02:13 that might be more exploitable, actually 02:13 as IIRC more things are bisectable than have heads 02:13 yeah 02:13 tsurugi can instakill any monster 02:13 or will, rather 02:14 aren't very huge monsters immune to bisecting, or am I imagining that? 02:15 not the really big monsters like purple worms, right? 02:15 "slices deeply into the foo" 02:15 iirc 02:15 hm ah 02:15 I'd also assume unsolid monsters would be immune 02:15 you think they wouldn't care much about being cut in half 02:15 but then, you'd also think they wouldn't care much about being hit by normal weapons either, so hmm 02:16 would be funny if puddings would just split 02:16 I guess this is why D&D has damage reduction, which made its way into Slash'EM as enchantment resistance 02:16 The razor-sharp blade cuts the pudding in half! PP 02:16 (which is one of the more unfortunate names for a trinsic, as it'd be better used for what DCSS calls magic resistance) 02:16 i.e. resistance to status effects 02:17 raisse: did you test? remember it? or is that just a guess? 02:17 the "slice deeply"? done it 02:17 no, puddings being pseudo-immune to bisection 02:17 ais523: no, that was just a joke 02:18 replying to Guest26884 (who I suspect to be stenno) 02:18 correct 02:18 this is definitely a TDTTOE thing that needs fixing if it isn't already 02:18 also, Guest26884 is definitely at least pretending to be stenno, and probably actually is 02:18 -!- Guest26884 is now known as stenno 02:18 -!- stenno has quit [Changing host] 02:18 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 02:18 now i actually am 02:19 but i will leave to work now 02:25 (i was it before, too, just not authed) 02:25 (just to clarify) 02:25 at the moment there is no one in my vicinity who knows to use irssi and also knows about nethack 02:26 that will take another 3 months when i make holidays in japan with attie again 02:29 anyway, happy bugfixing and feature implementing, imma off to work 02:40 ais523: FIQ │ aosdict: this is the kind of bug that ais would consider a hall of fame bug in NH4 :P 02:40 yes 02:40 Evil Patch idea: if a nymph steals something, she will then always teleport away to avoid being killed by you, whenever she gets a turn while in range of your attacks. 02:40 hall of fame, definitely 02:40 it is a bug in NH4, after all 02:40 (just vanilla and basically every other variant too) 02:40 are we maintaining that thing somewhere? 02:41 I'm going to have to search my logs for "hall of fame", I guess 02:41 then put it on the wiki somewhere 02:42 I think there was a wiki article 02:42 ... on trac :P 02:43 actually, I'd advise people to use that vorpal exploit to quickly ascend slex before I fix it :P 02:43 Quite a bit of work--especially the testing--for something which will │··· 02:43 never be noticed in actual play. 02:43 pff, I thought everyone made potions scatter with landmines :P 02:43 (part of #H6104 fix) 02:44 FIQ: I have a backup of trac I think 02:44 but surely hall of fame bugs have happened since? maybe not 02:44 there was a hof-class bug found in fiqhack after then, but I don't think there has been any in nh4 02:45 (apparently fiqhack monsters generated twice as fast as intended, an issue that had been around basically since fiqhack was first forked, almost) 02:45 *regenerated 02:45 generated could be interesting too ;-) 02:45 what classifies a bug as hall-of-fame-worthy? 02:45 the issue was that I ported the hero HP regeneration fix, but instead of regenerating HP every 3 turns, they regenerated every turn but every 3rd 02:46 -!- nht has joined #hardfought 02:46 s/ fix// 02:46 LarienTelrunya: basically that it has a sufficiently awesome effect on gameplay that it'd be fun to intentionally exploit it 02:46 or else that it's so noticeable in retrospect when pointed out that you can't help but laugh 02:46 the classic example is the artifact naming thing 02:46 vorpy is definitely moreso than the AC bug IMO 02:47 but not as silly as artiname bu :P 02:47 *artiname bug 02:47 ah, so I guess the "healing spells heal the player to full unconditionally 50% of the time" bug that slex had in 2016's junethack would qualify 02:47 in vanilla 3.4.3, you could determine if an item had a valid base type by attempting to #name it to an artifact name 02:47 LarienTelrunya: sounds like it 02:47 trying to do that in certain old versions of NetHack 4 reacted differently to vanilla, but in a way that was definitely not less exploitable 02:48 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:48 it made you slip but didn't actually change anything 02:48 so the artifact was created regardless 02:48 FIQ: the crazy thing is, artifact status isn't even determined by the name 02:49 yeah :P 02:49 but a bug in message handling code somehow managed to drive it onto the Sting/Orcrist path by mistake 02:49 it's amazing not just from a player point of view, but from a code point of view too 02:49 I couldn't believe it when it was reported 02:55 ais523: is barthouse a formal DT member in any form? windows maintainer or otherwise 02:56 FIQ: I don't believe so, but he's porting to a platform that doesn't currently have an official port 02:56 which is? windows has a port already :P 02:57 LarienTelrunya: for slex, if you find the vanilla fix unwieldy for slex purposes, you could make the behead check use its own rnd(20) 03:00 FIQ: it's some sort of Microsoft app store thing 03:00 is that the only thing that uses "dieroll" in the hmon function? 03:00 that's like Windows but with a number of restrictions 03:00 FIQ: that'd reduce the chance of beheading considerably 03:00 ais523: ahh 03:01 currently, 5% of combat results are changed to beheadings, with the probability being "stolen" from the cases where it naturally hits 03:01 @ microsoft whatever 03:01 if you reroll the die, then 5% of /hits/ are changed to beheadings, which can be a much lower beheading rate if you have a low hit chance 03:01 because 5% of hits < 5% of total 03:01 hmm 03:01 fair 03:02 strangely enough, D&D itself changed its crit formula over to the reroll method (i.e. the crit chance is 5% of the hit chance, not 5% flat) 03:03 ais523: wait, so does that mean a flat 5% chance of beheading, even if you normally wouldn't have hit at all? 03:03 ais523: I thought it was the reverse 03:03 it beheads 5% of *misses* 03:03 er 03:03 I mean 03:03 FIQ: die roll is backwards, 1 is an autohit 03:03 it takes its behead chance from a natural miss 03:03 I see 03:03 LarienTelrunya: the behead chance is stolen from a natural hit result; all attacks have at least a 5% chance to hit (this is a special case in the accuracy formula) 03:04 so 5% of the results are converted from hit to crit, and there must be 5% of the results available to convert (as it's the minimum possible hit chance) 03:04 wait, they do? I always thought a -40 AC monster was completely impossible to hit if you didn't have tons of to-hit bonuses 03:04 for all I know Slash'EM is different 03:05 didn't realize that NetHack uses the same system as Diablo there (5% autohit, 5% automiss I guess?) 03:05 ais523: debatable if vorpy bug repros in it :P 03:05 (and yes, that system originated in Diablo, and D&D then stole it :P) 03:05 apparently it doesn't reproduce in sporkhack, interestingly 03:05 I assume it was mostly by accident 03:06 since if it was deliberate, we would have known about this bug earlier 03:06 how big of an advantage is it to exploit this bug? 03:06 how do I do the bug? attack with vorpal blade until it beheads, then throw it and always behead? 03:06 hmm, now I'm having trouble finding the autohit adjustment in the code 03:06 LarienTelrunya: yeah 03:06 as long as you don't do any further melee attacks 03:06 which re-rolls dieroll 03:07 maybe it isn't there after all 03:07 bug_sniper: I don't think it's as advantageous as some people do 03:07 bug_sniper: not as huge as you'd expect at first (except for certain variants, Grunt being the major one) 03:07 it might be broken anyway though 03:07 but it's still broken 03:07 it's basically like a wand of death 03:07 that can't be resisted 03:08 but can only be done once/twice (with Tsurugi too) before you need to go get them back 03:08 and if something picks it up, it can be used against you 03:08 not the bug 03:08 but the weapon, yes 03:08 okay, slex definitely has the bug too 03:09 ais523: this has a much larger impact in Grunt and Dyna which has vorpal as a weapon property :P 03:09 FIQ: stupid theory: the reason that the bug doesn't work in SporkHack is that lorimer hates Houchou 03:09 hahaha 03:09 in slex, it's very theoretically possible to get several vorpal blades in one game (generated as a stack: "5 long swords named Vorpal Blade") 03:10 is the only way to get multiples of the same artifact if they generate as a stack? 03:10 (can you dip a stack of longswords for Excalibur?) 03:10 ais523: weapon shattering works similarly it seems 03:10 it uses a dieroll of 2 03:10 that would be even more dangerous than having a centaur prince shoot 5 arrows at you on the same turn 03:10 you can't make a stack of long swords 03:10 and even if you could, the make artifact code accounts for it 03:10 (see Sting) 03:10 FIQ: this is slex we're talking about 03:11 oh, I missed context 03:11 sentences starting with "you can't" are on very dangerous ground 03:11 shhh 03:11 ais523: they can only be in multiples if the game randomly makes a stack, yeah; wishing for a stack of artifacts does not work. Not sure what happens when dipping a stack of long swords, my guess would be that you'd indeed get a stack of Excaliburs :) 03:11 but yeah I thought you were still talking about vanilla(ish) 03:13 hmm 03:13 I am looking at the spork code 03:13 I don't see a reason as to why it wouldn't work 03:13 perhaps the one who tested it didn't do it properly? 03:14 00:09 it does work in sporkhack 00:12 yeah 14 decapitations in a row 03:15 ah 03:15 ok 03:16 "Can see which high priest is in the temple as soon as in line-of-sight and the priest has visible possessions (it will show as "You see on the high priest of Foo:")" 03:16 this grunthack report amuses me 03:16 considering grunthack's history with astral call 03:16 where is the pastebin for those grunt bugs? 03:17 https://gist.github.com/copperwater/0855eb14e0fe09b0dfe869912b676e8e 03:17 "If you become hungry while opening a tin, you get interrupted" isn't that vanilla behavior? 03:17 I think so 03:18 I've definitely seen it outside Grunt 03:18 it's simply a side effect of the "You are getting hungry." message always interrupting the player's occupation 03:18 "your stomach grumbles. you give up on opening the tin." 03:18 I'm not sure as to the best way to fix that 03:19 possibly making action_interrupted a wrapper to something that take a parameter for what occupations to stop 03:19 and make it not stop the "opening tin" occupation 03:19 one really annoying thing is that if you're fainting, and trying to eat something, you can faint while eating and as an end result end up becoming more hungry even though you tried to fix your hunger issue! 03:19 LarienTelrunya: this was painful to deal with in 4k 03:19 i.e. if the food is not very filling, the time you spend fainting will drain more nutrition than eating it will restore 03:19 sylph hunger troubles :P 03:20 right 03:20 everyone who cares: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/hall-of-fame.txt 03:20 salvaged from the old wiki, unescaped, and with context added 03:20 * For a while in Fourk, bones levels from DL20 or later in the main dungeon, if they were not special levels, would be saved as if they were from, and subsequently loaded at, dungeon level 2. 03:20 this is a great bug 03:21 they're all great bugs 03:21 this is why we have a Hall of Fame 03:21 :P 03:21 just I wasn't aware of that one 03:21 I'd still like to see someone ascend with red ?, though 03:22 I sometimes read old bug lists for old console games 03:22 it tends to be a goldmine of hof-style bugs 03:22 in some cases 03:22 you could look at some speedruns 03:22 Evil Patch idea: while blind, the main game screen simply disappears completely. You only have the top message line and the bottom status lines, and maybe the cursor will stay centered on your actual position. Everything else disappears from screen. 03:22 I speedrun Neverwinter Nights and found several bugs in it 03:22 such as the one that lets you duplicate plot items 03:22 LarienTelrunya: that's basically what red ? is 03:22 everything is a red ? 03:22 haha :D 03:23 it's NH4's reaction to trying to render on a terminal when it has nothing but a graphical tileset to tell it what things look like 03:23 LarienTelrunya: ADOM blindness removes your @ and cursor orientating help 03:23 slex even has something like that as a trap, the grayout trap, except it's intermittent: 10 turns of normal vision followed by 5 turns of "everything is a gray # glyph" ad infinitum 03:23 but there have been a few cases where it's happened for everyone 03:23 so blindness is map amnesia too 03:24 FIQ: I actually like that for a more evil-heavy variant 03:24 FIQ: sounds like the kind of dick move that adom loves to do :P 03:24 ideally the game shouldn't even show tiles tilesets if outside a tiles UI 03:24 as a status effect 03:24 "you can't see the @ and the cursor isn't placed on it" 03:24 it'd suck for players who were actually blind, though 03:24 even more than it would for sighted players 03:24 ais523: old versions of hack did that for invisibility 03:24 it was painful 03:24 most of them rely heavily on the screen reader equivalent of mouselook, centered on the cursor 03:24 *old versions of nethack 03:25 I think AceHack changed the invis-with-no-see-invis to put an I on the current square? or maybe it was NH4 03:25 NH4 doesn't 03:25 No idea with AceHack 03:26 that was mostly to fix redraw glitches, the giant I was just a nice side effect 03:26 bug_sniper: play the inofficial challenge character in slex! *bundlebundlebundle* :) 03:26 *interface improvement 03:26 I must be tired, that can't be explained either as a typo or a thinko 03:27 LarienTelrunya: there's the famous 3.4.3 challenge run in which you set all monsters to . 03:27 it's much harder than it sounds, because this also creates a situation in which farlooking a . will crash the game 03:27 nice 03:27 disable color for additional challenge 03:27 ais523: ah, slex has a trap that makes all monsters be displayed by a gray # (but without farlook crashes :D) 03:27 I've heard stories of people attempting it, but I don't know how far they got 03:28 slex also has a trap that makes all traps be displayed by fleecy-colored # glyphs, which is similarly fun ;) 03:28 slex needs a trap which causes the player to be playing a different game entirely 03:28 I think slex has a trap that makes you have to ascend another game of slex 03:28 to continue 03:28 ideally one that can be mistaken for a NetHack variant if you aren't paying attention 03:28 zapm/prime? :P 03:28 dnethack trap? "Suddenly, the elder priest appears! The elder priest tentacles to tentacle you! Your cloak of magic resistance disintegrates and your brain is cored like an apple and YOU DIE THANK YOU COME AGAIN." 03:29 FIQ: how does that work with streaks? :-D 03:29 ais523: no idea 03:29 I know magic the gathering had a card like that 03:29 FIQ: it doesn't, all it has is fake messages saying things like "You may not play any other NetHack variant until you ascend slex." 03:29 I think slex has a recursion spell, not sure how it works 03:29 FIQ: two 03:29 the first one got banned fairly recently, the second one was never legal 03:29 the best part about that card is that from what I heard, it wasn't banned immediately 03:30 (it only took a month or so, but still...) 03:30 (the problem with the first one is that it was commonly used in combos that created a large number of recusive subgames as a method of running down the clock) 03:30 Shahrazad wasn't banned for /years/ 03:30 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 03:30 Enter the Dungeon was banned pre-emptively, though (especially as it's basically just a joke card) 03:30 ah 03:31 Shahrazad isn't very good except in the combo of "win game 1 of a match, stall out game 2 indefinitely", though 03:31 (your opponents can't just concede the main game because then they'd lose the match, and they can't concede the subgames as it would really hurt their life total) 03:31 my mtg knowledge is minimal 03:31 but that would make sense 03:32 recently there's increasingly been a trend of banning cards that are problematic for tournament administration 03:33 Shahrazad was one, Second Sunrise also got banned because it's part of a combo that takes something like half an hour to play out 03:33 and was good enough to see competitive play 03:34 how about a card that makes the player who uses it become the tournament administrator? call it something like "Chaotic Commander", because chaos will break loose if several players in different games but in the same tournament decide to play it :P 03:34 does MTF have any combos that can stall the game indefinitely? 03:34 *MTG 03:35 FIQ: there's outright a rule that says you can't stall the game indefinitely with an infinite loop, but you can get pretty close via a combo that makes it impossible to lose but gives you no way to win 03:35 if both players play one of those, the game isn't going to end 03:35 ah 03:35 there is no 50-move equavilent? 03:36 but you haven't created any sort of loop, other than looping through your decks (which would eventually cause a draw by infinite loop if it becomes clear that both players are OK with it and there's no way to interfere, but it rarely reaches that point) 03:36 that forces a re-match in a stalemate 03:36 a draw forces a rematch 03:37 but draws only happen by agreement, simultaneous loss, or an infinite loop that's unstoppable in the sense that neither player can choose to end it using something that's part of the loop 03:37 (there's no rule that forces you to break a loop using something that's uninvolved in the loop, even if you can) 03:38 but, say, if player 1 has a setup that lets them damage opponents any time they want, and player 2 has a setup that lets them heal any time they want 03:38 the players can't just keep going back and forth damaging/healing forever; the way it works is that the player whose turn it is has to specify the maximum number of times they'll use their ability before game progress is made, then the other player has to choose some specific number based on that 03:41 M:tG is basically what happens when bored players force a TDTTOE style of rulesmaking on the tournament rules team… 03:42 Heh 03:44 also, a quick search of my IRC logs reveals another HoF bug in Fourk, the bug fixed by 3fb7008 03:45 which apparently allowed a blessed scroll of wishing to wish for and always get wands with any charge count up to (0:127) 03:45 did platinum angel and lichform get banned from the tournaments? 03:46 bug_sniper: platinum angel isn't broken at all 03:46 those are the main cards I can think of that might make it impossible to lose 03:46 despite a well-known meme, it doesn't protect you from being disqualified 03:46 and it's fairly easy to destroy 03:46 it's normally only used as a card that you substitute in against decks that can't beat it 03:47 unless you make it indestructable with equipment 03:47 and even so, those decks often manage to outrace it 03:47 bug_sniper: I once pulled off something very similar to that against someone trying a tournament-quality deck 03:47 Fortune Thief + Shielding Plax 03:47 they only had one card that could beat it in their whole deck, because it was such a weird angle of attack 03:49 must have been an interesting game 03:49 the great thing is, even though they were playing a top-tier deck and I was playing a bunch of random cards 03:49 I actually won the whole match 03:50 the other game was won in an even sillier way, Void for 8, Thrumming Stone into Void for 9 (from these numbers you can probably guess which deck they were playing if you were around at the time) 03:51 this is something that has probably never happened before and will probably never happen again because a) those cards are terrible, b) those cards don't combo well together, and c) cards costing 8 and 9 are not commonly used 03:53 yeah, and you need a duo deck for void 04:01 ais523: oh I remember that bug 04:01 I "reported" it to jonadab by exploiting it IIRC 04:01 which (0:127) wand did you wish for? 04:01 death 04:02 I didn't use that many charges (only around 10 or so) but was mostly just proving a point 04:03 ais523: is there a version of impossible/panic with no R? 04:03 I want to send it if I detect that a save claims to be of a later save revision than the game is 04:03 FIQ: there's error_reading_save for that circumstance, I think? 04:04 at least, check to make sure it has the semantics you want 04:04 it doesn't have a nicely formatted dialogue box like the others though 04:04 it calls into the Nitro error code 04:04 it makes the "This game needs manual recovery" things? 04:04 yep 04:04 at least, if I remembered the correct function 04:08 works, thanks 04:16 ais523: is there a particular reason as to why is occupation reason in flags rather than you 04:16 ? 04:16 *why occupation reason is in flags 04:16 probably just historical 04:17 was going to make action_interrupted a wrapper into something that intterrupts "any occupation" 04:17 so I can make it so that certain things doesn't interrupt stuff 04:17 i.e. tin opening with hunger 04:22 ais523: does FLAG_ENUM have some special meaning? 04:23 it is used for helpless_mask 04:23 FIQ: it's a compiler directive that prevents warnings on values that are made by ORing enum values together 04:24 ah 04:24 amazingly, the compiler directive was originally invented for NH4 and /then/ added to clang, the first compiler to have it 04:24 heh 04:24 nice :P 04:24 so the FLAG_ENUM on helpless_mask is the first place in the world it was used 04:25 did a nh4 dev send a PR to clang about that or? 04:25 or was it just coincidental 04:25 it confuses emacs indentation, I wonder if there's a way to fix this 04:25 (a simple work-around is to temporarily remove the directive, but..) 04:27 FIQ: right, pull request 04:35 https://github.com/bloodstalker/clang/commit/672481705244a63e11014dbee86820323c2b3896#diff-0a320fc5b725fb4f154e693ae78ac5c5 04:36 not sure why I ended up in a github fork when googling it, but w/e 04:36 hmm, maybe it wasn't invented for NH4 then 04:37 I know we added flag_enum to NH4 before it was in any compilers though 04:37 um 04:37 read the author :P 04:37 oh, did an NH4 dev /merge/ it? 04:37 github's interface is terrible :-( 04:37 unsure 04:38 the link in that commit is dead 04:45 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 04:45 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45 -!- elenmirie_ is now known as elenmirie 04:47 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:49 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:52 -!- remirol has joined #hardfought 04:54 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:02 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:06 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 05:06 got stuck in shop 05:06 phase door 05:07 o 05:27 -!- nht has quit [Quit: nht] 05:29 !tell K2 fiqhack updated, you will no longer stop opening tins if becoming hungry 05:29 Will do, FIQ! 05:44 Hunger should make the opening faster! 05:49 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 05:50 -!- stenno is now known as Guest16914 05:54 -!- Guest16914 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:09 EPI: a way to enter a game and make a player's good artifacts cease to exist, with no benefit to their generation count 06:10 sounds like GM mode ;) 06:10 in a sense 06:11 originally proposed by loli because he'd love it if I went ahead and said "okay, I'm spawning an ugod and a truck ghost and maybe also a thick farting girl for you to fight" in his game :D 06:12 not hard to do 06:12 look at how bones are loaded 06:12 not like that, those monsters could be useful for experience 06:12 or simplemail, even 06:12 @le?ugod 06:12 if sender is amy and content starts with !!, do something special 06:13 !!summon playerpos truck ghost 06:13 ooh, that would be *evil*! 06:14 but I guess if I implemented that it'd lead to a massive outcry ;) 06:14 meh 06:14 could be fun for a special gamemode 06:14 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... what if I make it into a variable? 06:14 ^^ 06:14 you beat me there :D 06:14 an option "gmmode" that can only be set at birth, defaults to false, but if set to true, allows mail from "AmyBSOD" to do special things! 06:15 or for added fun, make it free for all 06:16 well, there's obviously the potential for abuse 06:16 obviously make it nonscoring 06:16 ;p 06:16 lol 06:16 someone might e.g. spawn a bunch of mind flayers that the player can kill for INT-granting corpses 06:16 why stop there 06:16 wimpy lesser mind flayers 06:16 make it possible for you to generate random items 06:16 throw the player a wand of wishing 06:17 then summon a bunch of demon lords in their face 06:17 hmm, I kind of want to make it similar to the ctrl-g command, "wizmode genesis", which summons monsters 06:17 now I kinda want to do a gamemode like this for april 1st 06:17 EPI: whenever someone not known to be evil uses that, generate evil artifacts and elder priests 06:17 gamemode: troll 06:18 let certain people mess with the game from outside 06:19 in the slex case I'd be inclined to limit the function to my own account (AmyBSOD), because I would use it in a sensible way by assessing how powerful the player's char is and generating monsters that aren't unbeatable for them ;) 06:23 nice patch idea: a monster with a name with a ' in it in every variant to avoid injection security attacks for future security 06:23 also, the question is, would the act of sending mail already have an effect, or only if the player reads it? 06:24 LarienTelrunya: just hijack the mail code 06:24 hmm, should be just an idea 06:24 look for a special beginning string 06:24 and the proper name 06:24 pline ("This message is from '%s'.", curline); 06:24 and the proper gamemode 06:24 would have to compare curline to "AmyBSOD" there 06:24 pline ("It reads: \"%s\".", msg); 06:25 and parse "msg" into the wizmode genesis function 06:25 err, the content of "msg" 06:25 problem is, I can't test that locally :P 06:26 you can put 2 computers on the same lan and test dgamelaunch that way 06:26 if strlen(msg) > 9 && strncmpi(msg, "!genesis ", 9: genesis(msg + 9) 06:26 something like that 06:28 I think stuff should happen when the message is sent so that people aren't antisocial about messages 06:29 ) 06:30 genesis(msg + 9) would pass on a "char" variable to that function I guess? 06:30 it just puts the part of msg after the "!genesis " part to genesis() 06:31 actaully, maybe may that depend on a message parameter in the message contents 06:31 so if I'd e.g. say "!genesis truck ghost" then it's like calling genesis(truck ghost)? 06:31 *make 06:31 LarienTelrunya: yep 06:31 well 06:31 genesis("truck ghost") 06:32 now the question is, should the function place the monster randomly on the level, or next to the player? 06:32 up to you 06:32 I am merely telling you how you'd implement it codewise :P 06:32 okay :) 06:32 base it on a message parameter maybe so the sender has more flexibility 06:33 LarienTelrunya: yo ucan look at the wish parser 06:33 to figure out how to do string parsing 06:34 there's already the problem in wiz_genesis that trying to create a "hostile girlfriend" does not work, because it tries to make a nonexistant "girlfriend" monster that is set to be hostile :D 06:34 just say hostile hostile girlfriend 06:35 yeah, that works, but maybe I wanted one with randomized hostility status ;) 06:36 EPI: genesis('{"action read message": "give wand of wishing", "action destroy message": "summon nasty nasties"}') 06:41 @le?nasty nasty 06:44 LarienTelrunya: your fault for making such monsters :P 06:45 :D 06:52 LarienTelrunya: My _biggest_ problem with makedefs is the fact that some of the formats it writes are architecture-dependent for no good reason. 06:53 BUt what ais523 said is also significant. 06:53 but it makes all those nice PM_FOO defines! 06:54 compare it to a game like Angband, where you have to assign numbers to the monster list entries yourself, and can't simply put them in between, leading to chaotic code where monsters that belong together don't appear together! 07:01 LarienTelrunya: so like this? http://sprunge.us/SIdK 07:01 that thing is missing a ton of stuff obviously, but you get the point 07:02 yes, but with numbers, so it says e.g. N:1:Filthy street urchin 07:02 B:BEG:* B:TOUCH:EAT_GOLD etc. 07:02 and then for the next monster N:2:Scrawny cat 07:02 so each of them needs to have a number 07:02 http://sprunge.us/hiHM proper display 07:02 anyway, ^ works 07:02 if you really want to kill makedefs 07:03 for some reason 07:03 this is what Angband uses: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/AmyBSOD/ToME-SX/master/lib/edit/r_info.txt 07:03 >angband 07:03 >ToME-SX 07:03 and then there's a header file where you have to input the exact number of monsters, or it won't work right 07:04 well ToME-SX is an angband variant 07:04 anyway, due to the number system, it's more or less impossible to insert new monsters, you have to append them in the end of the file :( 07:05 so if you added a bunch of dragons, then a bunch of other monsters, and eventually want to add new dragons again, you can't just place them where the previous dragons are! 07:05 jonadab: you want to see worse than monst.c? 07:05 and that's where the nethack monst.c system is much better :D 07:05 ^ that's how you do worse than monst.c 07:11 FIQ: I can think of plenty of ways to do _worse_ than monst.c 07:12 Starting with all the strings, including monster names, needing to be declared separately in a different header and referred to by _number_ in the monster definitions. 07:12 (The excuse for this, of course, would be i18n.) 07:12 EPI: sqlite-based monster tables so that new monsters can be inserted whenever someone feels like it 07:13 jonadab: for i18n, you'd obviously have a "base" reference 07:13 without even a commit 07:13 bug_sniper: actually, I'd love it if someone other than me "inserted" new monsters, which I could then implement in slex ;) 07:13 FIQ: I've _seen_ i18n done in the manner described above, for _error messages_ of all things. 07:14 I was thinking you insert monsters as a hotfix without changing the source code 07:15 and while you're inserting all the evil monsters, FIQ or goldenivy can insert the nice monsters 07:15 simultaneously 07:16 heh, get them to do it and I'll be forever grateful :) 07:16 in fact, all it would take was a text document with all the new monsters, send it to me and I'll judge them for possible implementation 07:17 bad monster: 20AC, 1d2 bite physical, speed 43, base level 3, alignment -2 07:17 a yellow x 07:17 "20 AC"? you mean -10? 07:17 no 07:17 slex uses classic d&d ac 07:18 so that would make it easy to kill 07:18 I am aware 07:18 bug_sniper: did you read the name 07:18 nope, and neither did amy 07:19 there actually is a monster named "bad monster" in the game 07:19 ok 07:19 let me make some adjustments 07:20 the one you suggested was added to my to-do list, but it will have -10 AC :D 07:20 not as bad monster: 15AC, 1d2 bite physical, speed 43, base level 3, alignment -2 07:20 what's up with your AC values? 10 is already "effectively naked"! 07:20 wlel 07:20 well 07:20 it makes it unique 07:21 10AC doesn't gurantee hits 07:21 good monster: level 1, always peaceful, and generates with a wand of wishing 07:21 stats are like a lichen's 07:21 summons a demon lord on death or if wand is stolen 07:22 drop the wand for you if tamed 07:22 pets generally od that, yeha 07:22 *yeah 07:23 and it sets your luck to -10 with no way to improve it again once the wand drops? ;) 07:23 EPI: a monster that "splits" when killed, into two new monsters of the same type. Has a gaze attack that reduces your luck. 07:24 whar does luck do for you anyways in slex? 07:24 luck influences your to-hit 07:24 and a bunch of other things 07:25 EPI: it also has a passive attack that reduces your max alignment. 07:25 And a tentacle attack that reduces your speed. 07:25 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:26 nice patch idea: masonry to smooth out the surface of luckstones so they do stack 07:26 since that luck is intrinsic luck and extrinsic luck doesn't improve intrinsic luck anyways 07:26 bug_sniper: NH4's internal name before it was called NH4 was "nicehack" 07:27 NItro + aCE + hack 07:27 oh, didn't notice that 07:28 fiqhack was also supposed to be an internal name before a proper name was devised 07:28 there was never a proper name devised 07:28 FIQ: well I call it gameoverhack, because of stuff like samurai reading scrolls of genocide or scroll of earth boulders bouncing endlessly :D 07:28 Well, someone suggested NetHack4 4.3.1 07:29 jonadab: did they really now 07:29 this was before fiqhack ended up refactoring everything after all 07:29 call it playermonstersymmetryhack ;) 07:29 jonadab: that said, calling it nethack4.3.1 would work well as a tease to ais 07:29 I don't remmeber the exact timeline, it might've been after some things were refactored. 07:29 for his original name :P 07:29 Heh. 07:29 Indeed. 07:30 "Oh, NetHack 4 version 4.3.1 is just the name of my variant. THe version number is actually 4.3.0 right now." 07:30 No one could possibly get confused :-) 07:30 :D 07:31 that reminds me, did ais finalize his dungeon overhaul document? 07:32 I haven't heard anything to that effect. 07:32 I assume there are parts of it he's still thinking about. 07:32 aww... I'd really want to read it ;) 07:33 so apparently the game doesn't like when you give youmonst a mextra 07:33 oh well, I fixed that 07:34 LarienTelrunya: Yeah, several of us are looking forward to reading it. 07:34 now whybusy (gerund wording for your occupation) is part of monst 07:34 or rather, part of mextra 07:34 . 07:34 K2: Message from Tangles at 2017-09-26 01:39 EDT: I can help tonight (say 4-5 hours from now) with the patching if you need it. We should do 3.4.3-nao and dNethack as well. 07:34 K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-26 05:29 EDT: fiqhack updated, you will no longer stop opening tins if becoming hungry 07:34 FIQ: Ah, nice. 07:35 jonadab: it will revolutionize nethack gaming for decades to come, and slex gaming in particular since I'll be looking for the most evil, satanic ideas and see if they fit into slex :D 07:35 FIQ: Just don't give youmonst an EDOG. 07:35 I intend to also move the other occupation-related stuff to monst 07:35 !tell Tangles not sur eif i will have time right now, i have work to do before... work. bleh 07:35 Will do, K2! 07:37 where's nethack 5 07:37 should be written in java 07:37 bwahahahah 07:37 ok back to work... 07:38 I think I will decide *not* to read ais' proposal 07:38 unlike jonadab, I tend to agree with ais a lot generally when it comes to gameplay stuff 07:38 and don't want it to influence me before I come up with my own ideas 07:41 *unlike with jonadab 07:41 when you do have read it, tell us what you think about his "solution" to the "mysterious force" on the ascension run 07:42 I already solved the mysterious force problem in FIQhack :-) 07:42 (I removed it) 07:42 bhaak: wtf, does that sound like you're already in the possession of it? *auchhabenwill* :D 07:43 ais has probably voiced his opinion on how to fix MF beforehand 07:43 independently of this 07:43 LarienTelrunya: you know a vast majority of the wand rebalance functionality in fiqhack originates in a proposal by ais? :P 07:44 yeah, and similarly, the satanic "your AC is meaningless" feature in fourk does so too :D 07:44 it was the first thing I implemented 07:44 in fiqhack 07:44 and to this day it remains one of the more controversial 07:44 I wonder why that is? 07:45 some people like it 07:45 some dislike it 07:45 some despise it 07:45 Certainly not because you need to go out of your way (FIQhack) or are completely unable (Fourk) to protect your stuff from wands of lightning. 07:45 fiqhack has several ways to allow that though 07:45 uncursed wonder, with some luck 07:45 ring of shock res 07:45 blue dragon scale mail 07:45 And yes, one turn to get the wand out of the bag is too long. The giant eel drowns you! Do you want the # of charges of that wand of teleportation identified? DYWYPI? 07:45 objects of shock res 07:48 FIQ: ais' solution is more ... elaborate :) 07:48 how strict is the policy? i.e. can ais's proposed changes be talked about while he's not in the channel? 07:48 LarienTelrunya: ais hasn't coded it up yet, he only talked about the rough design idea. also because it would be no simple fix 07:49 depends on how much you want to spoil FIQ :-) 07:49 LarienTelrunya: I think the only one who wants to avoid his dungeon overhaul proposal is me 07:49 bhaak: huh, I thought the entire purpose was to have an outline? is he actually coding it all before releasing the document? 07:49 !tell ais523 I get why global variables are bad, but do you plan to remove all of them, in particular u? 07:49 Will do, aosdict! 07:49 aosdict: have you ever looked at fiqhack 07:50 https://github.com/FredrIQ/fiqhack/blob/master/libnethack/include/you.h 07:50 line 40+ 07:52 I also killed uwhybusy in local changes 07:52 haven't pushed yet 07:52 LarienTelrunya: I don't remember if he has done a design document but he talked about his ideas before on IRC 07:53 ah; well, lately he said something that I interpreted as "my dungeon overhaul document is almost complete" so I was hoping it would reach completion soon and be published 07:54 aosdict: but yes, I want to get rid of u 07:54 not the global part of it -- I still intend to have a global youmonst 07:54 but I intend to remove u itself 08:12 FIQ: hmm, what about all the other associated globals or psuedo-globals like uwep and uarm, and the stuff like Fire_resistance and Slimed? 08:13 Slimed doesn't exist in fiqhack 08:13 Fire_resistance does, but only because it was used all over the place, and only as a macro 08:13 actually not that many places, I should get rid of it 08:13 # define Fire_resistance uhas_property(FIRE_RES) 08:14 # define uhas_property(p) has_property(&youmonst, p) 08:14 # define has_property(mon,prop) (m_has_property(mon, prop, ANY_PROPERTY, FALSE)) 08:14 aosdict: but generally speaking 08:14 I am converting these property macros to equavilents that work for monsters 08:15 for example, in this case 08:15 # define resists_fire(mon) (has_property(mon, FIRE_RES)) 08:16 fiqhack property code is at https://github.com/FredrIQ/fiqhack/blob/master/libnethack/src/prop.c 08:18 LarienTelrunya: You _can_ protect items from item destruction in Fourk, by fooproofing them. Which you can do with confused scroll of enchant weapon while wielding the item. 08:18 FIQ: also, where are these other ais proposals? Not wands balance, I've already read that, but there are more? 08:18 jonadab: really? so a fireproof wand would also be lightningproof? 08:18 Being able to protect items against destruction with an extrinsic will be in .5 08:18 LarienTelrunya: Yes. 08:19 rings too? 08:19 aosdict: I don't know 08:19 Wait, let me just check which branch that's in, I _think_ it's in master... 08:19 jonadab: I think it's .5 08:19 Also you can't fooproof all wands 08:19 For example, crystal ones 08:19 I wonder if it'd be possible to gather all proposals to one place (probably the wiki) to serve as a link list so that people don't have to go around asking people for proposals they know about 08:19 Oh, hmm, I should make it so you can, and list them as shockproof. 08:20 "link list", heh 08:20 linked list 08:20 the game internally sets the erosionproof flag anyway, unless the proofing code specifically disallows it 08:20 jonadab: didn't you make it so that it says "stainless" if the item material is naturally erosionproof? 08:20 Oh, sorry, yes, that change is in bleeding-edge. 08:20 It's been in bleeding-edge for a long time, so I forgot it wasn't in master. 08:21 Hmm, I wonder if I could cherry-pick it over without breaking save compat. 08:21 Let me look at that. 08:21 LarienTelrunya: It's got a whole list of adjectives it tries to use, depending on material and class. 08:21 jonadab: is there a reason bleeding-edge isn't stable yet 08:22 considering it has been over a year 08:22 Several reasons. 08:23 Oh, I see why this isn't in .4. It depends on the scale changes. 08:23 That's a shame. Hmm, I wonder if I could cherry-pick a diluted sans-scale-changes version of it to .4 08:23 jonadab: oh, "indilutable" and "durable" :) 08:23 THis is pretty late in the dev cycle for that, though: probably not a good idea. 08:23 LarienTelrunya: Yes. 08:24 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 08:24 indilutable for potions, rustproof for items that would otherwise rust, stainless for metal, corrodeproof for things that would otherwise corrode, fireproof for flammables, durable as a last resort. 08:25 ou forgot rotproof for wood 08:25 *you 08:25 and fixed cor crysknives 08:25 Ah. 08:25 Oh, good point. 08:26 okay, gotta go now, but will be back later ;) 08:26 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:28 The _short_ version for why .5 is nowhere near save stable yet is because I've been trying to get .4 ready for release first. 08:28 Also, I had several months earlier in the year when I didn't do a lot of Fourk development. 08:29 (I don't mean June-July, that's every year.) 08:29 (But this year, I want to say February-April or so, I didn't do much either.) 08:47 -!- remirol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:47 -!- remirol has joined #hardfought 09:11 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 09:14 -!- AndChat167316 has joined #hardfought 09:15 Guess Amy left 09:16 Was goin to say you should surround the good monster with reverse genocided acid boobs and then steal the wand of b wishing 09:17 And yeah, phone keyboards are bad 09:18 acid boobs 09:18 lol 09:19 Bad weird completion there 09:19 acid boobs 09:19 i'm making that my new work email sig 09:21 5 cent it will be in next slex version 09:21 ;) 09:21 !tell LarienTelrunya just surround the good monster with boulders and then steal that wand of wishing 09:21 Will do, AndChat167316! 09:30 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 3330 points, T:3569, quit 09:49 K2: Pushed the dieroll fix from Bart House to Fourk master. 09:50 ok 09:53 NetHack Fourk updated 09:53 FIQhack updated 09:56 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 09:59 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed fixed +3 premium heart", on T:5159 10:08 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 1746 points, T:605, killed by a monster (hobbit) 10:15 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:8228 10:16 izchak has 2 magic lamps! 10:17 both 10:17 blessed 10:17 already 10:20 gg 10:20 I had tht happen to me once 10:21 bard atm 10:21 what should I wish for? 10:21 a better role choice 10:21 thinking a figurine of something 10:21 you playing dnh? 10:21 I've already got premium heart from fountain at the oracle 10:21 yep 10:21 ahh 10:21 fiq: I would never get this far as slex bard 10:21 not sure 10:22 I don't know the good pets in dnh anymore :( 10:22 and I don't konw if fiq/grunt/etc. have bards 10:22 :/ 10:22 tarmunora was telling me about the gwyn abuse a day or so ago 10:22 wishing for a furious whirlwind figurine, can give you one of the eladrin lords as a pet 10:22 they don't 10:22 nice 10:23 I'll probably do that now, save the other wish because I need the lamp 10:23 for light >.> 10:24 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed figurine of a furious whirlwind", on T:8536 10:24 ayfkm 10:24 gave me a crocodile one 10:24 not trying that again >:u 10:25 annnddd another lamp 10:25 in the hardware store 10:27 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed figurine of a tulani eladrin", on T:8806 10:28 uh it's killing the shopkeepers ;-p 10:28 ;-; 10:34 !tell k2 3.4.3-nao updated (barthouse dieroll fix). Please build from "hardfought" branch. 10:34 Tangles: Message from K2 at 2017-09-26 07:35 EDT: not sur eif i will have time right now, i have work to do before... work. bleh 10:34 Will do, Tangles! 10:41 -!- Khor has joined #hardfought 10:41 Khor: today's channel logs for some context: https://hardfought.org/irclog/%23hardfought-2017-09-26.log 10:45 Tangles: did you fix vorpal blade bug in nao? 10:45 if you want to backport fixs to nao 10:45 you should also fix branchport skip :P 10:48 isn't that what the !tell meant? 10:48 FIQ: Yes in our repo. I PR'd it to dtype. 10:48 "barthouse dieroll fix" 10:48 rikersan: yes that's what I meant. 10:48 kk 10:49 FIQ: I was not aware that branchport skip was not already fixed upstream. 10:49 nao was last updated like 2015 I think? 10:49 excluding the updates to curses 10:49 what's the branchport skip bug? 10:49 Hmm...simple enough to check. 10:49 actually, are they even pushed to actual NAO yet 10:50 nope 10:50 still old version 10:50 Unix NetHack Version 3.4.3 - last build Sat Sep 19 05:30:13 2015. 10:50 on NAO 10:50 FIQ: No NAO has not merged any of our 3.4.3 changes. 10:50 343nao has been considered pretty much "finished" by paxed. Have to decide if it is a maintained thing or a preserved for posterity thing. 10:50 dtype: right 10:50 IMO, policy should be kept for all 10:51 Crash fixes should obviously be fixed either way, but otherwise 10:51 but I don't think paxed is going to touch it anymore. So I just have to decide on my end if it is a maintained branch 10:51 Tangles: so if NAO wants to not update the 3.4.3nao thing 10:51 IMO neither should hdf 10:51 Hmm... 10:51 (that includes curses fixes) 10:51 to be honest not sure I'm *against* keeping it maintained at least with a pretty high bar for anything to be changed 10:52 dtype: I can see that 10:52 I would not count this fix as major enough 10:52 It's clearly an exploit, but is it too much 10:53 I personally don't have an issue with the hdf version diverging from nao, but I suppose if others consider that an issue we could call it something else. 10:53 let it die with astral call and the other 3.4.3 bugs, I say 10:53 call it 3.4.3-nao-hdf :P 10:54 (though I suppose this is a 3.6.0 bug, and would die when 3.6.1 comes out.) 10:54 aosdict: eh 10:54 astral call was fixed like 10:54 days after releease 10:54 *release 10:54 I was not around when 3.4.3 was released. 10:54 neither was I 10:55 but there are git logs ;) 10:55 but officially, astral call wasn't fixed until the 3.6.0 release 10:55 Tangles: clearly the best fix here is to keep the curses fixes but don't fix vorpal exploit ;) 10:55 I'm not that interested in maintaining the code either, but it has significance because we are porting a log of UI improvements and bugfixes to other variants that are based on it, so it makes sense to root the changes in 3.4.3-nao, because it's the most "vanilla" of our variants. 10:55 mostly because it benefits me the most 10:56 as far as I know, since vanilla doesn't use 3.4.3.1 or anything 10:56 aosdict: right 10:56 but this dieroll bug is a 3.6.0 bug 10:56 doesn't mean it was introduced in 3.6.0 10:56 but it was found in 3.6.0 10:57 Yes, I imagine it was introduced pretty far back, since it works in slex. 10:57 aosdict: I think it might have been introduced in 3.0 10:57 when the current uhitm/mhitm/mhitu framework was instated 10:57 ...and I'm happy to PR anything that might be of interest back to altorg, but I'm not really fussed whether it gets merged or not. 10:59 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 541 points, T:1155, killed by a dwarf 10:59 Khor: hmm were you going to play or? 11:00 Tangles: and nothing against any of the PRs either. Just have to decide if 343nao is maintained or just "finished" at this point 11:00 curses fixes were never merged D: 11:00 paxed was always the real maintainer of 343nao 11:00 actually I should look into adapting it for 3.6.x 11:00 at least after the first few years 11:01 and try to have it merged into vanilla 11:01 then I might finally have code contributions to upstream :P 11:03 dtype: Yeah I understand. NAO has a track record of fixing bugs and applying patches to improve UI and other things, but it's also significant that the last build was 2 months before 3.6.0 was released. That kind of hints at it being "finished". 11:03 FIQ:I will play but not today. Too much work. x.x 11:03 Khor: Message from rumflump at 2017-07-08 05:10 EDT: https://images.discordapp.net/attachments/205316704106971136/333142718983176192/image.png found your bones. tamed your horse. and it died well? kinda? 11:03 wow that's an ancient tell 11:03 My bones? I never played in this server. :| 11:03 Or did I 11:04 !lastgame khor 11:04 Tangles: No last game for khor 11:04 why did he tell you then 11:04 the robot unicorn is my horse name ho 11:04 tho 11:04 -!- captain42 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:05 Did hardfought grab bones from another server? 11:05 Khor: perhaps he was playing on asc 11:05 and was confused 11:05 that's the only thing I can come up with lol 11:05 flump did originally play on asc after all 11:05 Or that too. 11:05 before he was made aware of this place 11:06 My pet names are still the best. :3 11:06 :P 11:06 what do you name your pets? 11:06 https://images.discordapp.net/attachments/205316704106971136/333142718983176192/image.png 11:07 My cat was called 'the fur elemental'. 11:07 ohh haha 11:07 brb naming my irl cat htat 11:07 I remember that name 11:07 it's great 11:07 My horse 'the robot unicorn' 11:07 lol 11:07 And my dog... I don't remember. 11:07 rikersan: it's a cool name :P 11:07 yep 11:07 Khor: catname is best name 11:07 Haha. I'm glad you like it. ^^ 11:07 I had forgotten 11:07 I might "borrow" it 11:07 my nethack cats are always named cat-cat, that's what my irl one answers to 11:07 I don't have any other special names 11:08 Feel free FIQ. :) 11:08 if I set up custom names at all, I usually just use "Kissen" for catname 11:08 rikersan: Weird. My cat only answers to the smell of turkey 11:08 ours does that too :p 11:09 (swedish common nickname for "the cat") 11:09 My real cat is called Limón. 11:10 Mordisquitos 11:10 Oh. Hahaha 11:10 That's a good one too. 11:10 Is it my dog? 11:10 yeah 11:10 Hahaha 11:10 did you look at configs 11:11 nao userdata 11:11 It's a diminutive for bites in spanish 11:11 ah 11:11 It's hard to translate tbh 11:12 I see 11:12 afk 20min 11:12 :/ I forgot that polypiled chargeable items always get 1 charge 11:12 if not from a chargeable item 11:13 yani: with that AD_DRHP dmgtype I want to add, also add a mosquito monster which uses it 11:14 class a, of course. 11:14 so you're saying make class a even more annoying in the early game? 11:14 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) killed the Oracle, on T:15803 11:15 who's to say they'd be in the early game? 11:15 5d10 drain HP attacks, anyone? 11:16 -!- captain42 has joined #hardfought 11:17 Killed by the Oracle? 11:17 This game changed so much while I was gone. .-. 11:17 no, they killed the Oracle 11:18 oh shit I did? 11:18 whoops 11:18 my pets are faster than me so I can't always see what they do 11:18 You can kill the Oracle? 11:18 and I hid "* gazes at it*" 11:19 no but my pet tulani with -40 AC and a +3 longsword can 11:19 I mean. I forgot basically everything. 11:19 you can yes 11:19 iirc she only has a passive attack of magic missiles 11:19 Oh. I remember a game where my pet tulani allowed me to get infinite HP and MP until I got bored. 11:20 another magic lamp :D 11:20 It got fixed after my game of course. :P 11:20 khor: how'd that happen? 11:20 asking for a friend 11:20 ah ok 11:20 Well I don't remember exactly. 11:20 uh-huh 11:20 I do 11:20 But in the place with a lot of trapped monsters in one of the qyedts 11:20 Quests 11:20 Ok. You go. 11:20 I would butcher it. 11:20 XD 11:20 :( 11:21 I accidentally displaced my dragon into water 11:21 In old versions, tulanis transformed into balls of radiance 11:21 wait hold up he can fly what 11:21 Who had passive cold 11:21 fiq: they still do i thought? 11:21 when at <1/2 hp 11:22 -!- captain42 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22 And in nethack ,anythinhg with passive cold can heat up 11:22 gaining max hp 11:22 and eventually duplicate 11:22 with a new inventory 11:22 in the TUlani's case this meant new potential full healing, etc 11:22 ah 11:22 I see 11:23 also, in addition to this 11:23 they don't do that anymore? 11:23 the chaotic zoo summons *a lot* of autons 11:23 which are lowlevel 11:23 so eventually the whole place is filled 11:23 with a billion balls of radiance 11:23 and a huge inventory 11:24 rikersan: nope 11:24 Wasn't it law quest? 11:24 Khor: it is 11:24 law quest aus level 11:24 I cal it the chaotic zoo because that's basically what it is 11:24 tons of chaotic monsters within iron bars 11:24 Oh. Right. :P 11:25 used to be every chaotic monster in the game in old versions 11:25 *call 11:25 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 11:25 *axus 11:25 -!- stenno is now known as Guest41109 11:25 What have we learned today children? If it duplicates, you can exploit it. 11:26 Hi Guest41109 and welcome to #hardfought. Enjoy your stay! 11:26 Khor the Pudding Farmer 11:26 Khor: actually, if you still like doing it 11:26 you should try on a fiqhack game 11:26 stress test save size :) 11:27 You put that back in? 11:27 Pudding farming? 11:27 I never removed it 11:27 I thought you started out of NH4 11:27 Pudding farming already has a built-in penalty 11:27 People call it pudding farming 11:27 Khor: NH4 has pudding farming 11:27 Huh 11:27 4k nerfs it but doesn't remove it 11:27 NH4 and fh always had it 11:28 another freaking magic lamp 11:28 I'm walking around with 3 11:29 I would suck so bad if I played now. :p 11:29 Khor: I always sucked at nethack 11:29 -!- Guest41109 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:29 It's still fun :P 11:29 I haven't actually streaked NetHack, ever 11:30 I don't really know how good I ended up being. 11:30 It depends on who you compare me to I guess. 11:32 https://scoreboard.xd.cm/players/K/Khor.all.html 11:32 -!- captain42 has joined #hardfought 11:33 Yeah I'm aware of that site. :P 11:33 But I think that makes me look better than ai really was. 11:33 I* 11:36 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:36 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 5891 points, T:2280, killed by a monster (white dragon) 11:38 oh hi Khor 11:38 K2: Message from Tangles at 2017-09-26 10:34 EDT: 3.4.3-nao updated (barthouse dieroll fix). Please build from "hardfought" branch. 11:38 been awhile 11:38 Oh hi K2 11:39 :) 11:39 hai :P 11:39 Yeah definitely 11:39 I see you have build a new realm arround here 11:39 was reading backscroll here and on ascrun channel 11:39 yeah. i had a lot of help 11:40 group effort 11:40 you looking to get back into playing some? 11:43 Probably not but might play a bit. 11:43 Got really burned from nethack. 11:43 understandable 11:43 I played an insane amount of games in a short time. 11:43 usually see some sort of slump after junethack 11:44 Well I'm definitely not good to compete anymore. 11:44 And even when I was. I'm very uneven. Sometimes winning 6 in a row and others not being able to pass the early game for a month. :P 11:44 you might surprise yourself ;) 11:45 Khor: have you seen me play 11:45 I remember you being good. 11:45 90% of my games die on like dlvl5 11:45 90%+ 11:45 Didn't you ascend a super hard combo on dnh? 11:45 he cheated 11:45 :D 11:45 this doesn't stop me from ascending everything but slex in junethack 2016 11:45 What was the game where you died to freezing time? 11:45 I didn't cheat 11:45 Khor: haha that was a good one 11:45 I kid, I kid... 11:45 I remember that 11:45 tried to find chat logs from it 11:46 but I didn't find them :( 11:46 anyway 11:46 garnet rod 11:46 time stop 11:46 nothing was moving 11:46 altar was in front 11:46 just needed 2 steps 11:46 took one step 11:46 forgot I was punished 11:46 so my ball and chain, being locked in time, paralyzed me 11:46 until time started again 11:47 and I died to an unnoticed illness 11:47 RIP 11:48 Khor: teh game nicely asked me beforehand 11:48 "This is a forbidden technique. Proceed?" 11:48 there's one last /dev/null tourney this november Khor. you ever do the /dev/null tournament? 11:49 *the 11:50 I don't think I ever competed seriously in nethack. 11:50 Other than against myself. 11:50 I beat some challenges like Speedrun, wishless and easy stuff like that 11:51 But nothing special. 11:51 hah... speedrun has never been easy for me 11:51 Im a pro at losing pacifist games in the end game tho. 11:51 that's one thing i need to attempt seriously at some point 11:51 My Speedrun is something worth wqtching 11:51 Khor: my paci nethack3 game was mostly just dumb luck 11:51 I mean 11:51 Watching* 11:51 it was my 2nd game 11:51 *2nd ascension 11:51 I was trapped in a level with some insane stuff in gehennom 11:52 what is a speedrun for you 11:52 I don't remember exactly what but it was something like 3 Liches and one of the bosses 11:52 turncount? realtime? 11:52 >20kT 11:52 I guess you mean <20k 11:52 ... 11:52 Yes I do. 11:52 :P 11:52 XD 11:53 nice T548195 speedrun 11:53 anything under 30k would be a speed run for me 11:53 Well I'm a man of extremes. 11:53 ... and i keep forgetting that the grue challenge counts checking inventory as a turn 11:53 I either pudding farm to death or do a wishless run or a Speedrun. :P 11:53 bleh 11:54 I only have a single <20kT run 11:54 and it abused a broken artifact 11:54 I forgot I'm also am expert in dying to dnh bugs. 11:54 no K2, it wasn't vorpal blade ;) 11:54 Khor: aren't we all 11:54 Actually. Not only dnh bugs. 11:54 heh 11:54 Also dynahack. >.> 11:54 axe of the dwarvish lords 11:55 Oh boy was that legenfary 11:55 throwing 11:55 Legendary 11:55 That was so funny 11:56 I threw a weapon that acts as mjollnir and got teleported in the same turn. So when the weapon came back for me I wasn't there and it kept going to infinity till the game crashed. 11:56 :D 11:56 heh 11:56 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) was given their Quest, on T:20540 11:57 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) killed Pindar, on T:20545 11:57 alright off to work, see you all 11:57 Cya 11:57 Khor: your bug attraction skills might prove "useful" for fiqhack 11:57 just saying 11:57 :p 11:58 luxidream is apparently also a guy like that 11:58 he found like 3 major bugs in fiqhack within 3 games that wasn't found beforehand lol 11:58 I Will Play some 11:59 !tell k2 Grunthack updated (dieroll bug). Builds, but not well tested :/ 11:59 Will do, Tangles! 11:59 'night! 12:01 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 12:04 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) killed Aglaope, on T:21344 12:04 pindar is already dead >.> 12:16 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 12:20 is it possible to get wands of wishing by polypiling? 12:21 Not in modern versions of NetHack. 12:21 nvm I don't need it 12:21 found one in the store anyway 12:21 :D 12:21 In really old versions it was possible. 12:21 bah 12:22 *ah 12:22 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed figurine of a giant eagle", on T:22163 12:22 Also, in really old versions, there was a wand of wishing hidden under a boulder on every level in Hell. 12:22 what 12:22 are you serious? 12:22 This was before Hell got renamed to Gehennom. 12:22 Yes. 12:22 yes 12:22 huh 12:22 I collected them all in my oldhack junethack 2015 game 12:23 then I died by zapping myself with death by accident 12:23 It was somewhat harder to GET to Hell back then, as the early game was much harder. 12:23 back then dragons was *dangerous* 12:23 like 12:23 they would actually kill you 12:23 lol 12:23 the majority of my characters in oldhack that year died to dragons 12:23 Back then, the monster generation rate was so high, that even though Elbereth could always be successfully written on the first try and never eroded, it didn't actually help much. 12:24 RIP 12:24 bacause they could hit you 12:24 I've never used elbereth sucessfully 12:24 and breath 12:24 at he same time 12:24 *breathe 12:24 RIP 12:24 *at the same time 12:24 and dragons was the only source of intrinsic fire resistance 12:24 so you probably didn't have it 12:24 FIQ: Also, you were somewhat less likely to have reflection back then. 12:24 by "somewhat less likely" you mean "not at all" 12:24 because it didn't exist yety 12:24 *yet 12:25 Ah. 12:25 nor did MR 12:25 Even more unlikely than I realized. 12:25 this is how a wand of death killed me 12:25 of course the wand of wishing is 0:1 and I forgot to use my first wish for blessed charging 12:25 good thing you had magic lamps 12:25 oh 12:25 I'm dumb 12:25 thanks 12:25 :P 12:26 none are blessed, my god is angry, I'll survive somehow though :D 12:26 uh 12:26 nvm I found another wand of wishing 12:26 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed scrolls of charging", on T:22286 12:26 chris, I think your RNG is faulty 12:26 I agree with this 12:27 are you sure it isn't set up on "evil"? 12:27 maybe you accidentally set it to "be nice" 12:27 no 12:27 it's evil alright 12:27 there are 4 master mind flayers in the room over 12:27 oh wait nvm they're dead 12:27 yeah carry on 12:27 :/ why do bards not have riding skill 12:27 lol 12:28 Khor: aosdict had an idea for a bard role that I considered adding to fiqhack 12:28 you start with 3 player monster allies 12:28 and your exp is shared 12:28 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed fixed +3 speed boots", on T:22291 12:28 one dying means a loss 12:29 the latter 2 points was my own adds to that idea 12:29 FIQ: Do you get to choose what skills your allies #enhance? 12:29 Having to keep 3 pets alive sounds annoying 12:29 jonadab: I don't see why you would be allowed to 12:29 Khor: but what if the pets actually had brains 12:29 and wasn't dumb as rocks 12:29 That changed everything. :P 12:29 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 12:30 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed fixed greased +3 figurine of a furious whirlwind", on T:22297 12:30 FIQ: Brogue pets are a lot smarter than NetHack pets, and, yet, a lot harder to keep alive. 12:30 NeroOneTrueKing: you should verify that there's no bug with dnethack's RNG, rikersan has found 3 magic lamps and 2 wands of wishing so far 12:30 I got confused there 12:30 fiq: 6 magic lamps 12:30 Ah 12:30 or maybe only 5 12:30 Sorrry 12:30 *Sorry 12:30 I have 2 uncursed 1 cursed atm, used 2 blessed already 12:30 :p 12:30 This is dNetHack 3.7 all over again 12:31 what was that? 12:31 legion devils used to drop all kinds of wands with equal probability 12:31 What if the 3 pets are characterized as players ? 12:31 and they were common lategame 12:31 :/ my arti wishing is messed up, I already found (and can't grab) the cloak of the unheld one 12:31 fiq: lol rip 12:31 Khor: ? that was basically the idea 12:31 not sure if I understand the question 12:31 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed fixed +3 tie-dye shirt of shambhala", on T:22298 12:31 So it was like some sort of party 12:31 er nvm 12:31 got that :p 12:32 Khor: but.. 12:32 that is the point 12:32 :P 12:32 I'm waiting for a stupid c death now 12:32 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "3 blessed scrolls of identify", on T:22313 12:32 jonadab: seriously though 12:32 would it be interesting 12:32 to have it work like that 12:33 4 wishes left, what should I do? 12:33 and also, to minimize frustration regarding level management, just have them all travel with you across levels 12:33 about to embark on neutral quest 12:33 *this is wands only 12:33 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "3 blessed potions of holy water", on T:22315 12:33 FIQ: Honestly, I think the healer role is supposed to be the pet-monger role in vanilla, and I don't see much point trying to add _another_ pet-monger role. 12:34 jonadab: this would be less "beastmaster"-y and more true allies, though 12:34 is the idea 12:34 I like the druid role idea better. 12:34 ok :P 12:36 jonadab: druid idea being a more balanced form of slash'em's doppelganger? 12:36 Kind of? 12:36 druid sounds cool 12:36 what would it do though? 12:36 You'd get polycontrol from turn 1, but not itis until a bit later, maybe XL5. Probably start with one wand of poly. But you'd have _severe_ inventory restrictions. 12:37 So you have to find ways to do everything by polymorphing. 12:37 right, that's the general idea 12:37 ais523: Message from aosdict at 2017-09-26 07:49 EDT: I get why global variables are bad, but do you plan to remove all of them, in particular u? 12:37 There would probably also be some other wrinkles. 12:38 aosdict: the plan with the global variables is to change them so that /internally/ they are not global variables; at least initially, it's OK to have things like compatibility macros 12:38 aosdict: u isn't a variable, it's a macro for gamestate.us[0] or somesuch. 12:38 in NH4, u is not a global variable but it's used in the source as though it was one 12:39 jonadab: that double-meaning is nice 12:39 BTW, I have never been able to decide if gamestate.us is a terrible pun or not. 12:39 "us", or "several u" 12:39 for potential multiplayer 12:39 Right. 12:39 jonadab: it's a terrible pun, yes 12:39 Your health currently feels amplified! 12:40 That one's bearly worse. 12:40 it should've been "Your current health feels amplified!" 12:41 That... is actually less egregious, yes. 12:41 In fact, I think I will make that change in Fourk. 12:41 nethack4 also has something called youaux 12:41 it's currently empty and holds nothing 12:41 fiqhack removed it 12:42 the original idea was to move everything currently in u into either youaux or youmonst 12:42 but it didn't get very far 12:42 but why? 12:42 understatement 12:42 but I mean 12:42 and I imagine fiqhack would have some sort of eyou struct? 12:42 why move stuff from u to youaux? 12:42 instead of having it remain in u 12:43 this was mostly to move as much as possible from u to youmonst 12:43 ais523: it doesn't yet no 12:43 but I've been moving things from u to youmonst 12:43 EYOU makes sense. 12:43 if you're almost emptying a variable, best to empty it entirely so that any uses of it cause an error rather than accessing stale data 12:43 when I feel like it 12:43 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 12:43 ais523: oh I solved that by renaming the stuff 12:43 at least for now until u is gone 12:43 unused_ux, etc 12:43 -!- stenno is now known as Guest41000 12:44 FIQ: oh, that's fairly clever 12:44 -!- Guest41000 has quit [Changing host] 12:44 -!- Guest41000 has joined #hardfought 12:44 I'm currently working on moving occupation stuff from u into an occupation mextra 12:44 presumably you aren't just removing it so that saves don't break? 12:44 (not an eyou, because monsters should also have it) 12:44 Right, occupations should be player/monster symetric. 12:44 ais523: right 12:44 So that dogs can partly eat things, etc. 12:45 mhm 12:45 Though dogs should probably eat _faster_ than humans, because A) IRL they do, and B) it's annoying when your pet spends 30 turns eating when you want to go down stairs. 12:45 NH4's reimplementation of occupations (as actions that it's recommended that the UI sends repeatedly, but nothing forces it to do so) should help here 12:46 -!- Guest41000 is now known as stenno 12:47 as part of moving occupations 12:47 I also discovered that the current fiqhack code didn't like giving players mextras 12:48 it was a trivial fix though 12:48 (because youmonst is made by creating a monster as part of restoration code, then copied directly, and then the monster is deallocated, which would also deallocate the mextra, creating dangling pointers) 12:49 hmm, at what point does it make sense to make youmonst into an owner pointer? 12:49 *owned pointer 12:49 owned pointer? 12:50 ais523: you mean like gamestate.us? 12:51 an owned pointer is basically a reference used like a value: it always holds the only reference to the thing it's referencing, which is malloced when the pointer is set and freed when the pointer is nulled or pointed elsewhere 12:51 currently youmonst is passed by reference basically everywhere 12:52 Does C have those kinds of semantics? 12:52 mon == &youmonst, foo(&youmonst), etc 12:52 jonadab: it's a very common pattern for implementing things in C 12:52 I can see changing this, but then I'd also change the name to minimize confusion 12:52 the language doesn't have any specific support for making it easy like, say, Rust does 12:52 (to umon or whatever) 12:52 references ew 12:52 but it's simple enough that it's fairly easy to write anyway 12:53 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed crystal ball", on T:23864 12:53 ais523: but I fail to see how this is different from just #define umon &youmonst and just never use the "true" appearance aside from save/load code 12:53 that's how it's used atm 12:54 FIQ: I was actually thinking more in terms of the save code 12:54 instead of copying things into youmonst, you just have youmonst point directly to the monster loaded from the save 12:54 and didn't really think through the implications 12:55 I've only just woken up, disappointing that I'm as tired now as I am just before I go to bed… 12:55 I don't see what stops one from doing this now 12:56 right, we probably should be doing that now 12:56 Besides the task of doing a mass-replace with sed an debug, or add a #define youmonst *umon as stopgap 12:56 *and debug 12:56 in terms of the save code 12:56 oh, because youmonst isn't a pointer at all, right? 12:56 right 12:56 it isn't 12:56 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:56 #define youmonst (*umon) is probably the best option short-term 12:56 it is used as a pointer everywhere 12:57 the game basically never does "youmonst" 12:57 but rather "&youmonst" 12:57 well, &(*umon) will still compile 12:57 and we can probably search-and-replace to fix that 12:58 immutability ftw :v 12:58 i know i am helpful with those statements 12:58 This'll be fun to merge. 12:58 :-) 12:58 jonadab: you're better off doing the same search and replace yourself 12:58 than merging the diff 12:59 I wonder how you'd do that properly though 12:59 merge the commit but specify "ours" as the conflict resolution algo 12:59 then search-and-replace during the merge commit itself 12:59 ahh 12:59 FIQ: But git will need to think that commit is merged. 12:59 ais523: Ah. 12:59 "conflict resolution algo", I must look that up in the git docs, sounds useful and important. 12:59 merge the commit before first, "ours" is kind-of a blunt instrument when it comes to resolving merge conflicts 13:00 jonadab: looks like it's called a "strategy" in the git docs 13:00 jonadab: ours/theirs mean, instead of <<<<..=====..>>>>> 13:00 it throws one part away alltogether 13:00 and automerges 13:00 see 'MERGE STRATEGIES' in man git-merge 13:00 this is almost certainly a bad idea unless you know you need it 13:00 like in this case 13:00 ais523: Ok. 13:01 someone in a project I worked on once did a "merge" using ours as strategy 13:01 it broke everything 13:01 people wasn't pleased 13:02 "blunt instrument", right. 13:02 also there are two ours strategies 13:02 recursive+ours which uses ours only when there's actually a conflict 13:02 and a pure "ours" strategy that uses ours even when there isn't a conflict (i.e. the commit you're merging is completely ignored) 13:02 If I can get it to just hook up the history and not _apply_ anything, I can treat it the same way I treat non-NH4 commits: make the changes by hand. 13:03 ais523: so in this case jonadab would want a pure ours? 13:03 I think either could work, as long as you're aware of the difference 13:03 Ah, yes, pure ours sounds right. 13:03 to minimize weird breakage 13:03 ais523: the easiest would probably be to split the commit by 2 13:04 one where the initial change is done, and a #define 13:04 the another for the mass-replace 13:04 I manually apply diffs any time I cherry-pick anything from 3.6, so I'm kind of used to that. 13:04 FIQ: yes 13:04 even if the first breaks the build, I'd say that's the best option here 13:04 but I don't think the first would break the build 13:04 not if you'd do a define stopgap, it shouldn't, no 13:05 After you do the search/replace, you could then remove the stopgap #define youmonst or whatever? 13:06 yeah 13:06 if you wanted to, you could make that a 3rd commit :P 13:07 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 13:07 [4k] Zappi (philbo) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 2808 points, T:1044, killed by a hobbit 13:08 ais523: vorpalbug isn't fixed yet :P 13:08 in 3.6.x that is 13:08 FIQ: which variant are you talking about? 13:08 ah right 13:08 there's a pull request for it 13:08 but it's alongside a much bigger pull request 13:08 yeah 13:09 so I think we might be taking more time evaluating the situation 13:09 #52 13:09 should be seperate 13:09 could merge that w/o touching the bigger one 13:09 for now 13:09 hi ais523! how's the dungeon overhaul proposal coming along? I'm really itching to read it :D 13:09 LarienTelrunya: Message from AndChat167316 at 2017-09-26 09:21 EDT: just surround the good monster with boulders and then steal that wand of wishing 13:10 LarienTelrunya: I've reached the ascension run now :-) 13:10 working on it a bit at a time 13:10 and IRC talk is the mysterious force kicking in? :P 13:10 yay! 13:10 also in the order you'd do it in an actual game, as that was the easiest way to go through it systematically 13:11 that said, coming up with a good solution for the Planes is going to be painful 13:11 the only plane that functions correctly atm is Air 13:11 and arguably Astra 13:11 *Astral 13:11 IMO half of them work well, the other half wis terrible 13:11 *is 13:11 Air is really well designed, though; it works very well even without levitation 13:11 which astonished me that time I did a levitationless ascension 13:11 earth is ok, but could use better handling of digging 13:11 air is perfect 13:11 once I lost my source of flying on air and ended up throwing cursed darts to move :D 13:12 fire is plane of spam and not really taht interesting besides the threat of Archonstorms 13:12 water... lol 13:12 *that 13:12 LarienTelrunya: you can kick off monsters, too 13:12 although that leaves you paralyzed at the end of the kick 13:12 hm 13:13 ah, that's what you do in the TAS, right? 13:13 (for 1 turn per space you moved) 13:13 s/paralyzed/helpless/ 13:13 also we don't know 13:13 and then use that equip storage thing to make the paralysis end immediately? 13:13 this reminds me of D:49 in ADOM 13:13 we were planning to do it in the TAS but our previous plan doesn't actually work 13:13 because it turns out that the equip storage thing only works with [ armour 13:13 the penultimate challenge for a normal victory 13:13 not things like rings 13:13 ais523: remember 13:14 and we can't wear [ armour as an air elemental 13:14 PT and WR used to be entirely different concepts 13:14 so it makes sense that it's seperate 13:14 um 13:14 (this is one of the bits of the run which would be /much/ easier in Slash'EM, as it has so many more monsters; the genetic engineer in particular would be very helpful) 13:14 *PR and WT 13:14 oh so the equip storage only works if the item takes several turns to put on/take off? or is it simply specific for [-class items? 13:15 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 13:15 LarienTelrunya: does elona have something like ADOM's D:49 13:15 LarienTelrunya: specific to [-class items 13:16 rather uneventful place, but it's cold and completely frictionless 13:16 so you have to throw stuff to move 13:16 it actually works better with zero-time items because the easiest way to trigger it is by having the item stolen 13:16 FIQ: no idea, balors don't exist in elona and there's also no quest to close the gate of hell :D 13:16 ais523: oh, I see 13:16 which leaves you helpless in its own right if the item takes time to unequip (although AFAICT it actually doesn't if you have storage on the item) 13:16 also: rikersan! at last we meet! :) 13:16 o/ 13:16 but there are zero-time [-class items like the leather jacket (also shields IIRC) 13:16 huh, that didn't hilight, wonder why 13:17 larien: is it just me, or are chaos sorcerers kinda dumb? I couldn't get any better than 99 percent fail rate with anything but rumor, despite setting up a locked room to repeatedly train the skill 13:17 LarienTelrunya: D:50 was surprisingly easy compared to the shit I had to endure to get that far 13:17 is that spell class special? 13:17 since it allows free teleportation 13:17 with teleport control 13:18 ais523: Water is the _really_ terrible one. Earth would be too boring/easy if the order were randomized and it didn't get an automatic Rodney appearance. Fire is... not as good as Air, granted. 13:18 jonadab: I find Earth better than Fire myself 13:18 rikersan: chaos spells are generally more difficult to cast than any other spell school; for chaos sorcerors they're easier, but still more difficult than all others, so it takes a lot of training to get a level 7 chaos spell to castable levels 13:18 oh I didn't even notice the lvl 7 part >.< 13:18 FIQ: oh, I thought you meant the last level :D 13:18 FIQ: The "Plane of Spam" problem is a UI problem: if you set msgheight to at least 12, it's fine. 13:18 I don't play spellcasters much 13:19 LarienTelrunya: no I was asking about D:49 before 13:19 the next to last level 13:19 jonadab: iirc dnh has "dungeon cave-ins", what do you tihnk of those? 13:19 jonadab: but it's just not an interesting plane 13:19 ah; I'm not so firm in what level is what, I only know that the final level has balors and a gate you need to close and the balors can re-open it 13:19 you just levitate and wander around aimlessy trying to find the portal 13:19 assuming you lack gold detection 13:19 and even if you lack levi 13:20 it isn't that bad 13:20 LarienTelrunya: D:49 requires you to throw stuff to move 13:20 too little friction to move by yourself 13:20 this is also the place where potions of uselessness has an use 13:20 to throw? 13:20 yes 13:21 don't things like rocks also do that 13:21 or gold 13:21 you get rewarded for it with an artifact 13:21 FIQ: and if you don't have enough items? game over by starving over the course of some thousands of turns? 13:21 ?? 13:21 that's why it's notable 13:21 fiq: what do you mean by rewarded with arti 13:21 jonadab: fire still isn't interesting even if you fix the message spam, it's just less spammy 13:21 FIQ: also, you were right when you said acid boobs will be in the next slex version :P 13:21 rikersan: if you somehow lack enough items to do it at that point yet have survived so far, congratulations 13:22 err, LarienTelrunya 13:22 ais523: It's not interesting in a unique way like Air, no. 13:22 Neither is Earth. 13:22 earth is salvageable 13:22 actually they all are, but especially earth 13:22 And Water is _annoying_ in a unique way, unless you are serene enough to not care at ALL about how many turns it takes. 13:23 I have plans for earth fix, unsure if ais523 would regard it as dungeon overhaul 13:23 but it is a rather simple fix 13:23 I want to try to come up with my own, but yours are probably better 13:23 it'll be interesting to compare though 13:23 Yes. 13:23 rikersan: 13:24 if you throw apotion of uselessness to move on D:49 in ADOM 13:24 hold up is that an actual potion 13:24 what 13:24 that's almost as bad as wand of nothing 13:24 the gods reward your ingenuity, or ability to read spoilers, with a random artifact 13:24 rikersan: Brogue potion of hallucination. 13:24 it only works once 13:25 jonadab: yep that's worse 13:25 I don't even think brogue potions can be thrown for dmg 13:25 fiq: that's amazing 13:25 it should work as flame-retardant 13:25 Some of them can VERY usefully be thrown; but not hallucination. 13:25 yep 13:25 hallu that is 13:25 descent, incineration, I've both used to clear out rooms 13:25 Yes, I want potion of hallu to create hallu gas in Brogue, which is non-flammable. 13:26 I generally die stupidly after but eh 13:26 And can displace other gasses. 13:26 that would be nice 13:26 That would make it actually useful. 13:26 somewhat similar to potions of darkness 13:26 Niche, but useful. 13:26 are potions of darkness useful? 13:26 do they affect stealth? 13:26 Only in very narrow circumstances. 13:27 I haven't ever gotten far in brogue so i dunno this stuff 13:27 it can displace fire I think 13:27 TIL 13:27 They produce such a small amount of the gas. 13:27 and can enhance stealth, yes 13:27 But yes, it's non-flammable. 13:27 potion of caustic gas can be indirectly thrown for damage, but I don't think that's what you meant 13:28 potion of incineration is a _good_ weapon, albeit situational. 13:28 I meant damage as projectile 13:28 potion of incineration is one of those things that's powerful but has a huge tendency to backfire 13:28 jonadab: aren't incendiary darts more useful 13:28 Oh, right, no, the potion vial itself doesn't do any damage, just whatever results from the contents. 13:28 coming in a stack 13:28 FIQ: Only because they come in a stack, yes. 13:28 you can often outrun an incendiary dart 13:28 jonadab: I've killed a goblin warlord with a incin potion 13:28 The potion is better than one dart. 13:28 its initial AoE is very small 13:28 I also blew myself up though 13:29 Or, yes, if you specifically want a small AoE, the dart would be better. 13:29 But the potion can light a decent-sized group of enemies on fire. 13:30 I remember lighting a zombie on fire in brogue once 13:30 FIQ: I do that intentionally all the time because I'm crazy 13:30 suddenly I had a living fireball homing in on me 13:30 That can be a good tactic, under the right circumstances. 13:30 that was a bit nasty 13:30 But you have to *know* where you are going to flee to. 13:30 if you see a zombie, how can you /not/ light it on fire? 13:30 because you don't have anything to light it with? 13:31 ais523: With a sufficiently good weapon, just whacking it to death can be safer, especially if you're in a swamp. 13:31 rikersan: I guess 13:31 jonadab: but that isn't as fun 13:31 jonadab: I tend to pre-emptively light swamps on fire too before entering 13:31 Or if there's a swamp between you and the up stair. 13:31 I tend to play fire mages far too often 13:31 ais523: If you've got a nicely enchanted fire staff, sure. 13:32 even a /2 fire staff is a nice thing to have for utility uses 13:32 FIQ: too bad monsters don't use items in brogue, or you could get your zombie ally fire resistance and give him armor of immolation. 13:32 Brogue's design actually does very well in making most items useful both enchanted and unenchanted 13:32 even /oPois can be used to temporarily disable a troll's regeneration 13:32 ais523: A /2 staff of fire is very useful, yes. 13:33 someone, I think possibly rumflump or jonadab, made staves of obstruction OP 13:33 in a variant 13:33 how so? 13:33 you could spam it 13:33 no wait, not obstruction 13:33 shattering 13:33 o 13:33 My variant didn't change how items worked, it only gave you different probability distributions depending on your seed. 13:34 so not your then 13:34 (And let you specify "I want a seed that's good for melee" at game start, without scumming a _specific_ seed.) 13:34 Also, some roles get different starting equipment. Healer is notable in this regard. 13:35 what do they get 13:35 Wand of domination, staff of healing. 13:35 ah 13:35 No armor, no weapon. 13:35 domination is a bit strong 13:35 no empowerment? or was that just made more likely to generate? 13:35 I'd have preferred to give them a pet goblin, but I don't know the codebase well enough yet to do that. 13:35 jonadab: so adding a petmongerer into another game? lol 13:35 ais523: empowerment is more likely to generate, yes. 13:36 It's hard for me to balance the roles, because I am not actually good at the game. 13:36 does FIQhack !oWonder work when thrown at monsters? 13:36 no 13:36 it probably should 13:36 Purely for symetry, yeah. 13:37 Though doing so doesn't seem useful. 13:37 but wonder is a bit RNG-heavy 13:37 jonadab: it's generally much more useful to dip things in it 13:37 rikersan: from earlier discussion, I think the key to opening up a bard role is to find something else for the Healer to do, but I haven't figured that out yet. 13:37 YANI: when you kill an air elemental, it drops some rocks - the "debris" you've been pummeled with 13:37 also from earlier 13:37 this would be helpful on Air because it gives you some stuff to throw 13:38 aosdict: I like the idea of the bard actually buffing pets 13:38 aosdict: DCSS used to have a healer role 13:38 it worked by, well, healing things 13:38 healing is good but iirc bards already can 13:38 aosdict: D&D bards are basically a "mildly good at everything" role that's particularly good at area buffs and gathering information 13:38 pacifying it and giving partial exp gain 13:38 this would be kind of hard to adapt to NetHack 13:38 or maybe bards could cast AoE spells/debuffs, and leave the healing things for healers 13:38 I dunno 13:39 ais523: I had an idea, based on an idea by aosdict, to make a bard role in nethack start with 3 player monster allies 13:39 ais523: well, this is the idea behind the "lead a party of tame player monsters" 13:39 and being "tethered" (going up/downstairs/levelporting/whatever forces you all to follow) 13:39 and a single one dying counts as a loss 13:39 hmm, that's an interesting thing I hadn't heard (the tethering) 13:40 basically free magic whistle powers 13:40 is this the equivalent of a nethack follow mission fiq lol 13:40 rikersan: hopefully if I were to make this, I would make allies more intelligent than a group of rocks 13:40 would a loss be "you die" or what 13:40 *pile of rocks 13:40 rikersan: no, but it would count as a loss 13:40 but the single one dying counting as a loss... not sure 13:40 fiq: some of my pets currently aren't, so that's a pretty hard goal 13:41 aosdict: basically to balance the fact that you are 4 characters 13:41 fiq: loss is what? to the player, the same as dieing just without death? like a forced quit? 13:41 or does it just make the game unwinnable 13:41 also because I didn't want people to start playing by killing its allies 13:41 they'd have to be either pretty buffed or pretty intelligent to survive the early game 13:41 or abandoning them 13:42 i.e. I want to try hard enough to encourage ally play, and iron out issues with it 13:42 fiq: I feel that would have the same problems as other petkeeping strats 13:42 aosdict: perhaps, by making bard a terrible fighter on its own, I could skip the force-loss then 13:42 FIQ: how about if one dies, you can hire a mercenary at Minetown, but they don't perform as well, have a level cap, and steadily drain your gold? 13:42 Someone in another channel recently was saying something about timed underwater stealth escort missions. 13:42 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:42 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43 Would that be worse than a follow mission? 13:43 As I've said, I think the general strategy of "stand back and let these allies handle things" fits bard much better than healer 13:43 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 13:43 that just happens to be what the healer is good at 13:44 I can see a NetHack bard role that starts with all items preidentified 13:44 Woah. 13:44 that would play out differently from most roles, at least 13:44 That would be hard to balance, but cool. 13:45 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 13:45 aosdict; mid-game bards are pretty much that strat 13:46 "stand back and do practically nothing" 13:46 stand back and let me buff you! 13:46 early-game you actually might need to buff your pet, and I've never tried endgame 13:46 -!- rikersan has quit [Client Quit] 13:46 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:46 aosdict: dnethack pets are generally still dumb as rocks, but dnethack compensates by making them ridiculously powerful 13:46 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 13:46 :/ my internet is horrible atm 13:46 and by enhancing player freedom 13:47 players can throw items to pets and have them pick it up (this is also in fiqhack) 13:47 and they can loot/encourage pets to equip certain thigns 13:47 *things 13:47 dnethack #loot/#equip is amazing 13:47 it's also very abuseable 13:47 abuseable how? 13:47 shoplifting 13:47 lol 13:48 A prerequisite of bards should be the ability to equip your pets, yes. 13:48 you can #loot items from pets in the shop 13:48 nice 13:48 works well with diamonds/magicite, identified 13:48 aosdict: maybe only bards have that ability 13:48 everyone has 13:48 or it's unlocked at skilled in beast mastery/similar 13:48 in dnh 13:48 no as a idea to implement 13:48 ah 13:48 that might be interesting 13:48 the skilled limit 13:49 aosdict: Just add caves of qud's dominationn ability :P 13:49 And the AI should be changed so if you put something on them, they will prefer to keep it over anything else 13:49 as opposed to, for example, putting down their Fire Brand on the Plane of Fire because they wanted a shinier sword 13:49 and then dying 13:49 well fuck 13:49 "Hmm, there is some nice dragon scale mail here, but this chain mail was a gift from my master, I think I will keep that." 13:49 my nethack run just died 13:49 lol 13:49 horribly 13:49 genocide scroll was pet-tested but apparently not 13:49 fucking 13:49 arch 13:49 liches 13:50 rikersan: Ahh 13:50 Ouch. 13:50 I knew the rng had something in store for you 13:50 rikersan: Note that pets will step on anything if there is food there they want to eat. 13:50 I'm not coming back to htat level 13:50 But you have spare wishes 13:50 I'm alive somehow 13:50 I have like 4 and left the level 13:50 So you can genocide them 13:50 Including the corpse of the monster that dropped the cursed items, if your pet is a carnivore. 13:50 on rogue level, dlvl 15 13:50 OH MY GOD THAT YOU FIQ 13:50 THAT IS AMAZING IDEA 13:51 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed scroll of genocide", on T:24533 13:51 Not markers? 13:51 Or multiplies? 13:51 can you not wish for multiple scrolls? 13:51 I was dumb ok don't just me 13:51 You can 13:51 >.> 13:51 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit] 13:52 jonadab: dcss has an "offer gift" special ability for what is basically the ally god 13:52 yes, you can wish for "3 blessed fireproof very thoroughly holy historic scrolls of genocide named lichbane" 13:52 it only works once for one ally 13:52 jondab: next time I will do that :p 13:52 more than once 13:52 have I gifted someone something 13:52 and they take one look at it 13:52 "nah I have better" 13:52 and drop it 13:53 it's getting kinda irritating walking into rooms and seeing corpses 13:53 chris needs to fix xray gaze attacks 13:53 first world problems 13:53 xray gaze? 13:53 it's infravision I think 13:53 through walls, he gazes and kills stuff 13:53 lol 13:53 likkeee that vampire lord 13:53 rip dude 13:53 aosdict: this is how dnethack balances pets 13:54 yes 13:54 by making them OP so the endgame only kills them not you 13:54 This is how dnethack balances everything. "What, thing A is OP? Don't worry, it has to contend with things B, C, D, and E, which are EVEN MORE OP." 13:54 jonadab: haha 13:55 jonadab: in an old version you could rather easily get a pet who had a gaze attack that could steal items remotely 13:55 lol 13:55 it wasn't very strong, but good utility vs demon lords 13:55 Or quest nemeses? 13:55 I suppose, yeah 13:56 demon lords always had like 2 full healing back then 13:56 Ah. 13:56 getting to use them myself rather than killing them 3 times was nice 13:56 I bet. 13:56 that feature was eventually removed 13:56 it didn't make things difficult 13:56 just annoying 13:57 Right, hard-to-kill demon lords aren't good unless they're an actual threat. 13:57 somebody posted a rant on the nethackwiki forum regarding pale night, mentioning a teleporting gaze 13:57 that sounds evil to me, don't think that's implemented 13:57 abduction 13:57 ? 13:57 is not a gaze 13:57 ? 13:57 Doesn't Pale Night have an instakill passive? 13:57 he called it a "teleporting gaze" so 13:58 other than that, yeah pretty much 13:58 jondab: yes 13:58 but engagement rings work against 13:58 pale night is one of very few demon lords with an abduction attack 13:58 prevents it from happening iirc 13:58 it teleports both you and the demon lord 13:58 fiq: wha'ts abduction do? 13:58 ninja'ed 13:58 huh cool tho 13:58 makes it a huge pain to kill them because it moves you off < 13:58 ah 13:58 To the same place? Or different places? 13:58 pale night is entirely optional though why would you even fight it 13:58 jonadab: same place 13:59 From the name, "abduction", one would expect it to teleport you both to the same destination. 13:59 it's not like it's a real challenge or smth 13:59 vs some of the other demon lords 13:59 I remember once facing a lair 13:59 chris said something like "ouch" 13:59 heh 13:59 iirc the demon lord on the lair had engulf drain int or something 13:59 is he active on irc anymore? I havent' seen him at all 14:00 fiq: tha'ts leviatian iirc 14:00 it's evil af 14:00 anyway, it would only show up when you killed the ice devil or whatever that was standing on > 14:00 yep 14:00 I asked "can you teleport it" 14:00 his answer was roughly ">_<" 14:00 rikersan: In Junethack a few years back, when Pale Night was quite new and not on the wiki, a player happened to be going through Gehennom polymorphed into something with two weapon attacks. Saw an &, whacked it, game over. 14:00 looollll 14:00 jonadab: oucchh 14:00 later on chris removed that work-around IIRC 14:01 that would make sense 14:01 rikersan: yeah, leviathan 14:01 I've had a really unlucky lair, I dunno which, iirc it was belial/fierna's 14:01 both the wizard and zuggtomoy showed up 14:01 heh 14:01 wizard was easy he just couldn't be killed 14:01 why would you kill Rodney before the demon lords? 14:01 sat outside of range 14:01 summoning 14:02 fiq: pet mind flayer :/ 14:02 lol 14:02 :P 14:02 I didn't even want the pet to :p I forgot about that 14:02 I've only ascended once so the whole "how not to fuck up in endgame" is new to me 14:02 jonadab: my favorite (maaaaybe because it is the most rewarding) demon lair in dnethack is dispater 14:02 it's a shopping mall 14:02 what's it have? 14:02 haha 14:02 it also has a billion legion devils so it used to be a nearly-guranteed source of a wand of wishing 14:02 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:03 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 14:03 sorry, my internet is horrible, imma go reboot modem 14:03 but fiq: lol, nice 14:03 I've never seen that lair 14:04 I've only found pale night, belial, juiblex, dagon, and meph before 14:04 I haven't reached Gehennom in dnethack. 14:04 It's on my TODO list after Un. 14:04 you should really 14:04 best gehennom 14:04 I know. 14:04 But it's hard to get there. 14:04 play halfdragon monk 14:04 not that hard 14:05 jondab: first and second keys of chaos are very easy, law first one is easyish too 14:05 dig for victory for a barbarian 14:05 it works wonders 14:05 my dnethack speedrun was a vampire barbarian 14:05 lol 14:05 I would try that but vampires are useless now imo 14:06 rikersan: I've survived to quest portal depth in dnethack twice, and then died. 14:06 with restrictions on blessed armor 14:06 The first time, it was YASD. 14:06 YANI: change covetous warping so it only works for demon lords in their sanctum levels, and it only warps them back into the sanctum. 14:06 jonadab: roles? 14:06 aosdict: s/sanctum/lair/ for clarificatoin, and hm that might be good 14:06 (It had been a long time -- hundreds of turns -- since I ate that turtle, thought sure it would be safe to eat by now. Nope. Choked on something tiny, like a shrieker or something.) 14:06 minetown, castle, law quest, gehennom 14:06 rikersan: Barbarian both times. 14:06 was my speedrun route 14:06 jondab: turtles are evil 14:06 roughly 14:06 I hate them 14:06 hate htem with a vengeance 14:06 vlad was after minetown 14:06 if I didn't find a magic lamp 14:07 I have abslutely not choked on them like 10 times 14:07 I restarted 14:07 lol 14:07 once I found one 14:07 what'd you wish for? 14:07 I went to vlad 14:07 bless with guranteed holy water 14:07 i've always gone for full limited moon as barb 14:07 wish for tensa zangetsu 14:07 ah 14:07 and have fun 14:07 rikersan: back then TZ had no downsides for undead 14:07 FIQ: Should I add giant turtles to Fourk? 14:07 including player vampires 14:08 jonadab: both un and dnethack has them... they're not that interesting IMO 14:08 but they have unique properties 14:08 Doesn't Spork also have them? 14:08 not a lot of nethack monsters do 14:08 Don't they block LOS like boulders? 14:08 That seems kind of interesting. 14:08 yes 14:08 fiq: ah tha tmakes sense 14:08 I haven't found it that interesting 14:08 But it's unique 14:09 jonadab: yes, and tins are always filling 14:09 tins give 400 nutrition (maybe 6 idr) and cure stoning 14:10 jonadab: they're pretty cool and all, just really annoying on some levels 14:10 I've been frustrated when 2 of them generated on the big room, blocking LOS on the spellcasters 14:10 EPI: giant turtles in Sokoban. 14:11 that is a thing 14:11 I do like the dnh stone crates for soko though 14:11 That's basically just flavor. 14:11 ye but cool imo 14:12 jonadab: and an excuse for the diagonal specia lcase 14:12 *special case 14:12 It's an excuse with slightly less contrived flavor, sure. 14:12 it has food items inside 14:12 sokoban no longer has food itself 14:12 (The vanilla flavor is something special about the floor, grooves maybe.) 14:12 dropping one into a hole gives you access to the food 14:13 FIQ: Yes, but you get food by doing Sokoban either way. 14:13 right 14:13 but I like the flavour for it 14:13 ^ 14:13 not one of dnethack's most amazing ideas 14:13 (not that it's bad, just not.. that) 14:13 but it's neat 14:14 NHINRL, but a boulder that can almost completely block a corridor is probably too heavy for a wimpy Str 8 character to move. 14:15 aosdict: But it's round, you just have to _roll_ it :-) 14:15 If it's round, you should be able to squeeze yourself and your bag past it. 14:15 Not at the same time, necessarily. 14:16 and you can 14:16 if you have a carrycap of 1k 14:16 you can lift items up to a weight total of 150 14:16 and sqeeze past 14:16 YASI: if you are a Noble, you cannot squeeze past boulders, because of being "portly". 14:16 crashed game: dropped 32k gold on downstair, went downstairs 14:17 FIQ: but your character could also just push their knapsack through the small opening, then go through after it 14:17 recovered fine but ?? 14:17 noble's quest throne is special 14:17 when finishing yoru quest 14:17 it's a nice throne 14:17 you choose what effect it has 14:17 including Imperious Order or Wish 14:17 iirc it was just 1 free geno and wish 14:17 IIRC 14:17 not all of them 14:17 I've gotten 2 nobles through the quest 14:17 >.> older veresion iirc, only the elf ranger was sleep resistant 14:18 hold the fuck up 14:18 my bard game was just ruined ;-; 14:18 crashed game didn't recover pets I don't think 14:18 jonadab: silly idea: clearly the amulet is very powerful, you should be able to invoke it for a wish :-) 14:18 with major drawbacks 14:18 FIQ: That would be a "bottle imp" kind of wish. 14:18 Yes. 14:18 yep 14:18 fml 14:18 :( it was going so well too 14:18 bottle imp? 14:19 short story 14:19 bottle imp gave the owner infinite wishes 14:19 but sealed your fate after death to hell 14:19 unless you could get rid of it by selling it for less than you bought it for 14:20 according to the story, in ancient history it was worth a fortune, but at the point the main character had it, it was just $50 14:20 is it sealing your fate if you own it? 14:20 K2: does this server keep records of games beyond the autorecover of a crashed one? 14:20 yeah 14:20 or just if you wish with it? 14:20 aosdict: aosdict Only if you can't sell it at a loss. 14:20 But somebody is gonna get caught holding the bottle. 14:20 because otherwise you could say "hey take this bottle, give me a penny, put it away and never use it" 14:21 not sure on details, but I assume that it sealed your fate regardless 14:21 of course, in the age of bitcoin and other fractional currencies, this should be easy... 14:21 it was never explicitly stated I think, but I think it's safe to assume that merely owning it sealed it 14:21 aosdict: That's a plot point, actually. 14:21 Well, not bitcoin, but fractions of a cent. 14:22 or, just currency manipulate so that the 25$ I spent for the bottle is worth less in GBP than it was when I bought it, sell it for GBP, wait for them to become more valuable than USD 14:22 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed figurine of a tulani eladrin", on T:26480 14:23 jonadab: clearly, invoking more than a single wish makes you unable to exit Gehennom :-) 14:23 aosdict: The story was written before fiat currencies and floating exchange rates. 14:24 But there were third-world currencies with coins worth a fraction of a cent. 14:31 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:31 this is actually brought up in the article 14:31 on wikipedia 14:31 ince the exchange rates of different currencies can fluctuate with respect to one another, it is also possible that the value of the bottle could increase from one transaction to the next even if the stated price decreases. This leads to an endless staircase-type paradox which would make it possible, in theory, for the bottle to keep getting sold infinitely many times. However, this might be forbidden 14:31 depending on how the bottle imp interprets the idea of "selling at a loss". 14:34 The need to resell is not the only catch with bottle-imp wishes, though. 14:34 You wish for a fortune and find out you just inherited it because your parents died, or something. 14:36 that said, many historical features doesn't seem to have been particularly bad off despite owning it 14:36 (according to the story) 14:37 True. 14:37 But even before that specific story, there were long-standing mythologies of demons who grant wishes in a cruelly over-literal fashion. 14:39 The (much later) BOFH stories also get a lot of mileage out of this idea. 14:40 "I need more disk space for my account." "Looks to me like you've got ten kilobytes free now." "Oh, so you doubled my quota to 20k?" "No." 14:41 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46 so whats the state of the vorpal exploit? 14:46 anyone pushed its boundaries further? 14:46 lots of variants fixed it instantly :( 14:46 like what? 14:47 fiqhack and jonadabhack? 14:47 and k2hack? 14:58 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 14:58 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 15:03 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:04 Someone is rushing to fix bluescreenhack I can tell 15:05 slex will be fixed, but I haven't done it yet, and also no one seems to have any intention of exploiting the bug there :P 15:06 im still going in gh 15:10 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 15:10 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 15:13 how low can i do quest in gh? 15:26 [4k] Idaho (philbo) (Arc Dwa Fem Law), 7455 points, T:1827, killed by a giant ant 15:29 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 15:35 how long does the /dev/null/ tribute tournament run for? 15:35 I konw it doesn't start for another month but still 15:36 For the month of November, I think. 15:41 [slex] AmyBSOD (Trs Bas Mal Cha) killed Mirko, on T:3918 15:46 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:50 [gh] Demo (Wiz Elf Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:17872 16:11 [slex] AmyBSOD (Trs Bas Mal Cha), 18189 points, T:4905, killed by a monster (stronger gnome warrior) 16:11 !lastgame 16:11 LarienTelrunya: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/A/AmyBSOD/slex/dumplog/1506446014.slex.txt 16:15 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16 maybe try a weaker gnome warrior next time 16:17 well that run was doomed over 1000 turns earlier already due to a scroll of destroy armor incident 16:22 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 16:24 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:29 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.] 16:30 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 16:31 -!- AndChat167316 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:31 -!- AndChat167316 has joined #hardfought 16:38 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 5334 points, T:3374, killed by a large dog, while paralyzed by a monster 16:49 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 16:58 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:58 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 17:17 -!- Tangles has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:22 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 17:22 . 17:22 K2: Message from Tangles at 2017-09-26 11:59 EDT: Grunthack updated (dieroll bug). Builds, but not well tested :/ 17:24 -!- remirol is now known as lorimer 17:30 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Raisse suddenly disappears!] 17:30 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 17:30 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 17:30 -!- Tangles has joined #hardfought 17:30 -!- mode/#hardfought [+o Tangles] by ChanServ 17:32 seet thanks Tangles. i will attempt to apply same update to sporkhack 17:32 and what's the verdict on oir 3.4.3 nao port? 17:33 we applying the patch/fix to it as well or are we staying inline with NAO actual? 17:34 Is NAO not gonna patch 343 for this? 17:34 no idea 17:34 I still don't think it's all that broken :-P 17:34 I mean, it doesn't really break the game. 17:34 i caught what dtype was saying ealrier, i suppose its up to paxed 17:35 but it's clearly unintended. 17:35 ais523 ;) 17:35 I still say the optimal exploit is to be something with high multi-fire, such as ranger, get Vorpie, hit with it until it beheads, then wield your bow and do all max-damage multifire for the rest of the game. 17:36 I mean, you can also still carry vorpie for use against particularly risky enemies. 17:36 wait, multifire works like that? 17:36 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36 No, no. 17:36 You'd fire the same _number_ of projectiles as usual. 17:36 ais523: well, stuff like killing newts on DL1 when you have the Amulet, and then you get a free kill of Rodney when he appears... 17:36 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:36 But wouldn't your dieroll be maxed, for damage? 17:37 jonadab: isn't it dieroll = 1? Not sure if that's the best or worst. And I think it's to-hit. 17:37 accuracy and damage are on totally different rolls, IIRC 17:37 most notably, accuracy is always a d20, damage basically never is 17:37 Yes, accuracy isn't affected here, I don't think. 17:37 !tell Tangles any patches you recently applied to grunthack appear to not have been pushed to the repo :/ 17:37 Will do, K2! 17:37 aosdict: Oh, hmm, if it's dieroll == 1 for vorpie, that makes what I said much harder to do. 17:37 Vorpal Blade works before it hits, so I think this affects the normal accuracy roll, not damage. 17:38 As you wouldn't know when your shots were doing max damage without a stethoscope. 17:38 Oh. 17:38 Accuracy. 17:38 I thought the bug description said "_if you hit_, it beheads", though. 17:38 right, vorpy beheading is on the accuracy roll 17:38 Ah. 17:38 Ok, then I was completely off track. 17:38 jonadab: yes, because what happens with the bug is 17:38 that it rerolls the accuracy roll to see if you hit 17:38 there's a separate accuracy calculation in the thrown to-hit? 17:39 Ah. 17:39 but then accidentlaly uses a stale accuracy roll, rather than the one that was just made, to see if it's a crit 17:39 But then doesn't pass the new value. 17:39 Ok. 17:39 so as it stands at the moment, only FIQhack and NetHack Fourk have the vorpal fix 17:39 and throwing has a separate accuracy calculation, yes 17:39 So the bug really is only significantly exploitable by throwing vorpie (or the Tsurugi of M.) 17:40 and especially in dynahack/grunthack as you can have regular weapons with vorpal property 17:40 i was testing grunthack in wizmode with a 20 stack of vorpal daggers 17:41 bloodbath 17:41 Oh, yeah. 17:41 Well, in fairness, multi-firing vorpal daggers is _somewhat_ OP in the first place. 17:41 i felt like i was playing quake with a quad damage railgun 17:42 how do you kill headless things, though? non-vorpal throne daggers? 17:42 headless creatures wouldnt be affected i would think 17:42 Wand of digging from inside, for Juiblex. I think he's the most dangerous headless thing. 17:42 I thought a vorpal hit on a headless creature missed entirely 17:43 as it goes above where their head should be 17:43 (Then tap him with anything.) 17:43 jonadab: that's not actually a kill, though, just reduces to 1hp 17:43 it would constantly be the 'your blade passes harmlessly' or whatever the msg is 17:43 I guess you could kick? 17:43 *above them, where their head would be 17:43 hah i should confirm that 17:43 ais523: Once he's at 1hp, just bash him with your bow or anything, I'd think. Or does he get damage reduction? 17:44 jonadab: a bow bash would reroll the vorpy roll 17:44 I think, at least 17:44 you'd need something that worked differently wrt to-hit 17:44 like a thrown rock, that would work 17:45 I guess you could just reroll the crit afterwards but where's the fun in that? 17:45 Oh, right, melee would. 17:45 So you'd have to throw something, yeah. 17:56 vorpal exploit's main impact is assassinations 17:57 it allows you to kill major single threats in as single hit 17:57 someone warn the Master Assassin! 17:57 *in a single hit 17:59 K2: the reason fiqhack has the fix might be due to someone "encouraging" me to add it ;) 17:59 lol 17:59 who was that 17:59 hmmmmmmmm 17:59 not sure 17:59 ;) 17:59 do you know? 17:59 :) 17:59 i'm pretty sure it was group concensus :P 18:00 it went something like this 18:00 "FIQ" 18:00 "fix it" 18:00 noooo 18:00 that cant be right 18:01 we can leave dynahack untouched 18:01 that way we have one variant where players can feel the love 18:01 ais523: fwiw if you want it to be an actual mechanic, make an artifact thas to be invoked for being able to instakill while thrown for 50 turns 18:01 Realistically, if NH4 hasn't been fixed yet, it probably won't be. 18:02 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:03 why not? 18:08 I guess I /should/ fix it, really, as part of globals purge 18:08 it's just that I don't have as much time for NH4 as I used to (over time, the number of competing hobbies you have grows, and I also have higher demands from my job) 18:08 also NH4 is just me again, there used to be a much larger team of people working on it 18:09 * FIQ bisects a loaded d20 18:09 ais523: is there anyone here you trust to have access to the NH4 repo to perform updates and fixes? 18:10 K2: due to the technical way it's set up, it'd be very difficult for anyone but me to push to it without opening up a security hole in things unrelated to NH4 18:10 understood 18:10 however, the way we worked was to use parallel repos 18:11 other people would have their own NH4 repo and I'd just pull from theirs and push to mine 18:11 with a perfunctory/superficial review in between 18:11 that worked pretty well 18:12 Tangles has a fork of nethack4 that hardfought initially pulled from 18:12 we have the same for a couple other variants (unnethack comes to mind) 18:13 the only change Tangles made to his NH4 fork was an install script specific for hardfought server, otherwise it's identical to your repo ais523 18:13 do you have the pull URL for that? I'd like to at least add it to my remotes 18:14 ah, right 18:14 https://github.com/NHTangles/nethack4 18:14 in that case there's not much point in pulling 18:14 I'll add it to remotes anyway though 18:14 ideally the hardfought-specific stuff would be in a different branch, that's how I run nethack4.org 18:14 K2: jonadab also has a repository, on github 18:14 ah i didnt know that 18:14 and I, but I don't really maintain it to the extent that I maintain fh 18:14 anyway, I'd probably be pulling from fiqhack and fourk more 18:15 except that they've diverged too much 18:15 my current plan is to get 4.3 out and then work backwards from fiqhack to produce a new NH4 18:15 nice 18:15 either that, or rebase fiqhack onto itself to split the internals and gameplay changes 18:15 rebase fiqhack onto itself... huh 18:16 FIQ: basically the resulting repo would be the same but with a different history 18:17 same tree though 18:17 ah 18:20 if you have combined patches early on, though, splitting it would be quite a bit of work 18:20 What do you mean with combined patches? 18:20 I think monster spells, at least, would probably need to be reimplemented rather than kept from vanilla/grunthack (if I still want them in NH4) 18:21 patches that make both extensive internals and extensive gameplay changes 18:21 Ahh 18:22 I'm working on adding special abilities, for the purpose of something similar to Slash'EM's #technique 18:22 I think it would likely be the optimal place to readd monster spellcasting if you still want tahat 18:22 *that 18:23 how many monster spells don't have anything with a similar effect in the player spells? 18:23 I think almost all of them? 18:23 destroy armour and aggravate are two obvious ones (although aggravate has some similarities to detect monsters) 18:23 Psi bolt, aggravate monster, destroy armor, curse items 18:23 Touch of death 18:24 (Summon nasties was added as player spell) 18:24 There's also the clerical spells 18:24 like paralyzation, summon ants 18:24 err, insects 18:24 spells with an obvious counterpart: cure self, haste self, disappear, touch of death (although finger of death is ranged), confuse, lightning 18:24 Lightning has a counterpart? 18:25 oh, I thought players had a lightning spell 18:25 but they don't, it's just a wand 18:25 No 18:25 Neither in fiqhack or vanilla 18:25 then there are pure damage spells, which aren't that different from the player pure damage spells: psi bolt, open wounds, lightning, fire pillar, geyser 18:25 wait, why do clerics have most of the pure damage spells? that's backwards 18:25 sucking at pure damage is the main cleric /disadvantage/ in D&D 18:25 You'd think clerics would be the summonstorm users 18:26 summon nasties, etc 18:26 summon nasties and summon insects are approximated (poorly) by create familiar 18:26 Demogorgon casts a spell! A kitten appears from nowhere! 18:26 ^ can happen in Grunt 18:26 stun, blind, paralyze seem like they would work just fine as player spells 18:27 (It can technically also happen in fiqhack, but create monster is much more common) 18:27 ais523: The main reason I didn't add more spells is that I'm rather constrained in the amount of spells I can add 18:27 that leaves curse items, aggravate, destroy armour, drain strength (similar to drain life when used on monsters) 18:27 I think there's like, 2 free slots 18:28 FIQ: save compat? spellbook description limits? 18:28 Throwing out the abilities from the spell list will give me some more though 18:28 ais523: You made a change that effectively reduced the amount of slots by 6 18:28 -ish 18:28 oh, inventory letters 18:28 ah yes the demogorgon summons a kitten 18:28 that was so awesome 18:28 i was concerned for about 2 sec 18:28 fear the fur elemental 18:28 s 18:28 the logic there could be changed 18:29 ais523: I was going to throw it out when the new ability code is ready 18:29 In favour of placing it there instead 18:29 It's basically an extension of #monster 18:29 I think I've seen arguments for removing some of the existing spells, too 18:29 Detect food 18:29 but moving things like prayer from the Z menu is plausible 18:29 Is actually removed in fiqhack 18:30 I don't remember why, perhaps there was a letter I wanted or something 18:30 unused: EJQ 18:30 hm, dunno 18:30 Oh well 18:30 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 18:30 (It's not like it would be hard to readd) 18:30 Oh right, I remember 18:30 I wanted to minimize the work in adding tiles 18:31 Because I have zero experience in image editing 18:31 ah right, new spellbook descriptions means new art for them 18:31 jonadab has made that issue obsolete though 18:31 you could probably contact the artists, too 18:31 he has a ton of unused art 18:31 well, not unused, but excess 18:31 dawnlike has unused art as it is (although I'm not sure about spellbook art) 18:31 and the rltiles artist has been pretty quick at adding new art when requested 18:32 I ended up never adding any tiles since I never made any offline version available of fiqhack 18:32 Due to requests, I've been working on rectifying that though 18:33 So with the help of jonadab I got the missing tiles added (except object pile icon, but that should be easy to me to add) 18:33 Just needs to find a proper windows setup so I can make windows binaries 18:33 *need 18:33 did jonadab manage to build fiqhack using aimake-on-Windows? I'm trying to remember, I think he did? 18:34 Yes, he did 18:34 I could probably ask him to help as a stopgap, but I really need to be able to not depend on others for binaries too 18:34 At least for Windows it should be possible for me to set up a dev environment 18:34 for a Windows build, I recommend using wix to get an installer 18:35 also, turn on all the options you care about when building the installer 18:35 the way it works is that if a build option is off by default 18:35 then if it isn't turned on it won't be in the installer at all 18:35 (my desktop came preinstalled with 8.1, I threw it out but according to the license, I shhould be able to legitimately use the OEM key as a VM setup) 18:35 and if it is turned on, it will be in the installer, but default-off in the installer 18:35 ais523: wix? 18:36 if this is about making a .msi, can't aimake already do this? 18:36 FIQ: aimake calls out to wix, it's an .msi compiler 18:36 Ahh 18:37 specifically, aimake generates wix source code as output and then runs the compiler from there 18:37 ok 18:37 btw, before generating an installer, make sure that all the versioning information is set correctly in aimake.rules 18:37 unlike many platforms, Windows cares a lot about version numbers 18:38 Mhm 18:38 Can I denote some sort of build number with it? 18:38 (aimake actually has a routine in it that's capable of converting "4.3.beta3" to something that Windows can parse) 18:38 E.g. if there is some major bug and I have to push a bug fix release 18:38 I can't remember how many components you're allowed in the version number 18:38 might just be three 18:40 ais523: yani from backscroll: finger of death should be renamed to touch of death and should be melee-range only. Strictly worse than the consumable wands of death, and somewhat more dangerous to use. 18:40 It means you'd want to nerf spell level 18:40 ( in order to merge the monster and player spells) 18:40 To 5, perhaps, same as Grunt 18:41 FIQ: which level it's nerfed to depends on what death magic actually does, as well :) 18:41 ais523: another approach for spells would be to add books that don't generate or can be wished for, or 18:41 for the monster spells 18:41 *for monster spells 18:41 aosdict: if I were to nerf FoD 18:41 I'd want another level 7 spell 18:41 =item packageversion \ The package's version number. This is a string that contains a sequence of numbers (of up to four digits), separated by dots (e.g. C<"1.0.0">). 18:41 possibly disintegration, or acid blast 18:41 I think I meant "up to four components" when I wrote that 18:42 so adding a build number should be OK 18:42 ais523: cool 18:42 well, level 7 attack means basically only wizards can use it with any probability 18:42 I can't remember whether components go up to 255 or 65535 18:42 one or the other, anyway 18:42 on Windows 18:42 aosdict: I want a max level spell for every school 18:42 FIQ: remember the yani for ring spells? might be a candidate 18:42 Ring spells? 18:42 not so much sheer damage 18:42 I don't know anything about any ring spell 18:42 but area damage 18:42 I forget which of the two yani pages it's on 18:43 ADOM has ball spells 18:43 FIQ: aha, I've found what the restriction is: on Windows, an upgrade only succeeds if the one of the first three version numbers increases 18:43 is this what you mean? 18:43 if you only increase the fourth it assumes it's a repair rather than an upgrade 18:43 it creates elemental "balls" of damage, similar to fireball/cone of cold, centered on you 18:43 never played ADOM so don't know 18:43 whose size depend on willpower 18:43 sounds similar 18:43 (you aren't hit, everything else in the radius is) 18:43 size to depend on skill level, probably, though 18:43 yes, that's the benefit of a ring spell over fireball 18:44 Yes, skill would be the equavilent in NeTHack 18:44 *NetHack 18:44 can't cast fireball close by without hitting yourself 18:44 ais523: what is the difference? 18:44 FIQ: it's Windows, so it's probably something stupid 18:45 at least the UI in the installer is notably different 18:45 ideally I want to be able to push an update without calling it 4.3.1 18:45 or similar 18:45 a bugfix update, that is 18:46 IIRC fourk dropped the first version component when it came to version numbers baked into the installer format 18:49 Yeah but 4k uses 4.3.0.x 18:49 where x is major releases 18:49 Inspired by 2.6 Linux kernel version numbers, I presume 18:50 anyway, aimake's version number rules are: a change in a library that breaks existing programs increases the first component; a change in an executable that can be installed over the previous one increases at least the third component 18:51 both of these are what's needed for compatibility with existing systems outside, allowing the same number to be used 18:52 Wait, so a library change would make it 5.0.0? 18:52 Oh wait, aimake 18:53 first component /of the library/ 18:53 library updates aren't meant to break existing programs, generally speaking 18:53 which is why the rule can be that dramatic 18:54 but libuncursed uses different numbers from nethack4 itself for this reason 18:54 ok 18:55 note that libnethack is treated like part of an executable, rather than as a library 19:16 !tell k2 pushed. (sorry I was really tired last night). 19:16 Tangles: Message from K2 at 2017-09-26 17:37 EDT: any patches you recently applied to grunthack appear to not have been pushed to the repo :/ 19:16 Will do, Tangles! 19:17 hmm, I see a cause and effect problem here 19:25 -!- AndChat|167316 has joined #hardfought 19:28 ? 19:28 ais523: Was the mail issue solved? Sorry for asking 19:29 -!- AndChat167316 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:29 FIQ: still being looked into, actually it may be worse than it seems 19:29 we're pretty sure we missed one by barthouse too 19:29 Ah... 19:29 which you commented on in an email we did receive 19:29 and we've probably missed many others that we have no way of knowing we missed 19:29 the person running the mailserver hasn't spoken up yet; I think they've been contacted 19:30 (also, the "cause and effect problem" is Tangles replying to a message by K2 on the line before receiving it) 19:30 ais523: Easiest check for missed mail would probably be the bugtracker? 19:30 Presumably bug IDs go sequentially 19:30 So missing numbers would be suspicious 19:31 (This isn't helpful for figuring out non-tracker mail, but might help in figuring out the extent of the loss) 19:31 FIQ: nah, spam on the bugtracker apparently is allocated a number and /then/ blocked 19:31 so out of sequence numbers are really common 19:37 ais523: Sometimes people see the !tell in backscroll and respond directly. Only when they speak does the bot tell them the thing. 19:37 jonadab: I guessed it'd be something like taht 19:37 *that 19:51 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 4369 points, T:2701, killed by a monster (giant piranha), while paralyzed by a monster attack 19:54 I'm not sure what it says about me and/or slex that I'm seriously wondering whether it's more likely that some other monster paralysed Yuring, or whether giant piranhas paralyse people in slex 19:55 Either is entirely plausible. 19:55 He could also have been paralyzed by a trap or something. 19:56 is there a slex version of pinobot? 19:56 this channel could do with one, I think, if it's ever to be used as a gameplay channel 19:57 @@le?giant piranha 19:57 I don't think there's a functioning pinobot right now though. 19:57 ais523: it has a pinobot instance every now and then 19:57 just that there is no pinobot instance period running atm 19:58 Tangles: have you considered adding it to Beholder? 19:58 and jonadab 19:58 it's 1 @ 19:59 ais523: I came up with a silly idea for a joke gamemode for april 1st based off a suggestion by Amy 20:00 a gamemode that allows the developer of the game to interact with peoples games via the simplemail "protocol" to mess with them 20:01 by spawning monsters giving items and moving them around 20:03 +, 20:03 I've seen that sort of thing seriously suggested as a method of Twitch chat interaction 20:03 also, Neverwinter Nights has that as a major game mode 20:03 to allow "human-moderated" campaigns 20:06 -!- bug_sniper has left #hardfought 20:07 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 20:16 -!- callforjudgement has joined #hardfought 20:16 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:16 -!- callforjudgement is now known as ais523 20:24 FIQ: I have considered it, but I'm not really sure how to go about it. The pinobot code makes no sense to me. 20:24 ok 20:24 well 20:24 you could make your own from scratch 20:25 the logic isn't exactly complicated 20:25 it's ultimately just a yaml parser 20:27 Yeah I guess. I'll spend some time on it at some point. 20:28 Tangles awesome thanks. no worries ;) 20:28 K2: Message from Tangles at 2017-09-26 19:16 EDT: pushed. (sorry I was really tired last night). 20:28 in the meantime pinoclone is up... not sure how current the data is though. 20:29 FIQ: that would be dungeon master mode 20:29 heh. there's that cause and effect thing again. 20:29 I used to play neverwinter nights, it was pretty cool having a DM oversee and manipulate the game 20:29 chicken 20:29 egg 20:29 OMG 20:29 I speedrun Neverwinter Nights 20:29 heh 20:29 (also, the egg came first, obviously; if you're asking about whether the chicken or the /chicken/ egg came first, it depends on your definition of "chicken egg") 20:30 I've managed to complete the original campaign in less than an horu 20:30 *hour 20:30 oh good lord 20:30 lol 20:31 why? was it that boring for you? 20:31 nah, doing a "full completion" is interesting too (although much of the game logic is broken to the extent that it's hard to define what a full completion means) 20:31 but working out the fastest completion is really interesting, especially when it comes to looking for bugs to exploit 20:32 this makes me want to fire the game back up 20:32 also, the chapter 2 plot logic is a total work of art 20:32 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 20:33 something that you don't notice as a casual player, and the fact that you don't notice it as a casual player is part of the reason /that/ it's a work of art 20:34 ;) 20:34 its been so long 20:35 FIQ: If I were doing a Pinobot clone, I'd have a separate YAML parser that outputs something that doesn't _have_ to be parsed (Data::Dumper most likely), and then the bot would just do a hash lookup. 20:35 yeah i am going to install it again this weekend 20:35 (That doesn't provide for correcting the user's spelling, but meh, let them learn how to copy/paste.) 20:36 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed fixed +3 bags of holding", on T:27508 20:36 ais523 did you ever get into NWN2 at all? i played it for a bit but wasnt as impressed as I was with the first title. plus it was very buggy 20:36 K2: not really, I much prefer NWN1 20:36 NWN2 has some interesting ideas but that's about it 20:36 yup 20:37 and I don't like the forced death in the tutorial (note that speedrunners figured out how to skip this and it completely breaks the game) 20:37 and then of course dragon age... 20:37 but for all the eye candy titles that exist 20:38 i've always come back to nethack 20:38 jonadab: you know what would make YAML parsing easy? If monst.c were a YAML file :) 20:38 imagination is much cheaper than a liquid cooled dual vid card gaming system ;) 20:39 and better to boot 20:41 K2: slightly relevant https://nhqdb.alt.org/?2096 20:41 aosdict: spoiler.c outputs the YAML that Pinobot uses. 20:42 heh 20:42 i once bragged that with a nvidia 750ti card i used to use, i was averaging about 4million fps in nethack 20:43 I can't play that fast. 20:44 ;) 20:46 K2: the fastest game-affecting action I'm aware of in NetHack is walking into a wall 20:46 however, that's limited by your keyboard bandwidth 20:46 most keyboards can't send 4 million keypresses in a second 20:46 I guess using a bot over telnet could go faster 20:46 Copy/paste? 20:47 would work on some ports 20:47 I think it works on tty 20:47 it doesn't work on most windowports though 20:48 I was thinking terminal, yeah. 20:50 GruntHack updated 20:52 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 20:53 Tangles: I saw an edit to src/dokick.c for the vorpal patch to grunthack, but did not see that edit when you applied the patch to our 3.4.3-nao build. was that on purpose? 20:53 * K2 assumes it probably is as grunthack is at times special 20:53 Does kicking weapons trigger things like vorpalness in vanilla? 20:54 i dont know 21:01 K2: Yeah there was something different in dokick.c 21:01 cool 21:01 what's grunthack vorpal do? 21:01 so what was the final verdict? are we diverging from nao with the vorpal patch? 21:02 I think because it calls damageum() which has an attack type AT_BHEAD which does the vorpal thing. 21:02 K2: what versions of vanilla does hardfought run? 21:02 which does not exist in vanliia. The code was moved from artifact_hit() as far as I could tell. 21:03 ais523: 3.4.3 nao and 3.6.1 dev (latest build sept 4th) 21:03 rikersan: read this - https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/pull/52 21:04 Tangles: i havent patched the 3.4.3 nao port yet, I read some of the discussion here earlier about doing that and not being 'NAO' anymore 21:05 K2: 3.6.1-dev has status_hilites improvements more recently than Sep 04. 21:05 i personally think it should be patched, but i also understand the reasoning not to 21:06 k2: ah I know that I just didn't understand the use of "vorpalness" 21:06 jonadab: Yeah I was just reading that. 21:06 jonadab: YES FIQ mentioned that 21:06 I was missing some context tho 21:06 gotcha 21:07 vorpalness - in a state of being vorpal 21:07 hmm, it's strange how out of all the coined words in /Jabberwocky/, "vorpal" is probably the only one that really caught on 21:07 possibly "Bandersnatch", I guess 21:08 You will occasionally see "frumious", or the phrase "frabjous day". 21:08 you occasionally see all the words from it, I think 21:08 I vaguely remember someone using "wabe" semi-recently 21:08 hmm, maybe not all of them 21:08 but many 21:10 Twas bryllyg, and the slythy toves did gyre and gymble in the wabe: All mimsy were the borogoves; And the mome raths outgrabe. 21:11 interestingly, "vorpal" isn't in the first stanza, so it wasn't ever actually defined 21:11 but it's almost always taken to mean "particularly good when used as a weapon" in some way or another 21:12 I think the specific meaning of randomly decapitating enemies is a D&D thing 21:12 Well, it does decapitate the Jabberwock in the poem. 21:12 not quite 21:12 it kills the Jabberwock, plus the hero leaves with the Jabberwock's head 21:13 didnt Carroll admit that he couldnt explain a lot of the nonsense words he made up, including 'vorpal' ? 21:13 but the poem doesn't actually state the two events are connected 21:13 Hmm. I suppose. 21:13 so although it /probably/ decapitated the Jabberwock, it's hard to know for certain 21:13 K2: "admit"? That was the _point_ of the poem, I thought. 21:13 i would say its implied 21:13 THat you could follow the story even with 10% or so of the vocabulary opaque. 21:13 the beheading 21:13 jonadab: there's at least one place in which Carrol insists that some of them are actually real, but dead, words 21:14 although it's possible that was just lies 21:14 ais523: I do recall reading that he said he combined existing words in some cases. 21:14 e.g., I think "slithy" had an etymology in his head. 21:14 "slithy" is "sly" + "slimy" + "lithe" 21:14 I think, might be a little off on the component words 21:15 grunthack has things zapping cancellation at you right 21:15 ais523: Not sure about sly, but slimy and lithe seem right to me. 21:15 rikersan: yes 21:15 most definitely 21:15 rikersan: so do FIQhack and Slash'EM, I think? 21:15 rikersan: Slash'EM does also. 21:15 but not all the games treat it the same way 21:15 ais523: It's different in FIQHack though. 21:15 what about dynahack? 21:15 rikersan: DynaHack probably doesn't do that unless Un does. 21:15 just wondering, I'm planning on trying fiqhack/grunthack later 21:15 for the object properties things 21:16 unnethack its not really an issue 21:16 jonadab: in Slash'EM it's blocked by MR, I think 21:16 K2: Dyna imported a lot of stuff from Un. 21:16 yup 21:16 Oh, could be. 21:17 dyna is unnethack 4.x on nitrohack if i recall 21:17 But I don't remember hearing anything about Un or Dyna having monsters zap cancel at you. 21:17 K2: dyna has some changes of its own 21:17 Grunt has things _cast_ cancel at you. 21:17 but most of its changes come from Un, Nitro or NH4 21:17 ais523: True. 21:17 ais523: true yes 21:17 inspired by unnethack would probably be closer to the truth 21:18 Most of its make-the-game-harder changes are from Un I think. 21:18 rikersan: long story short - cancellation is really only an issue for the player in grunthack 21:18 Can also be significant in Slash'EM. 21:18 ais523: Jabberwocky would seem to imply that the vorpal blade did *not* instabehead the jabberwock 21:19 at least in my interpretation 21:19 aosdict: 1. The blade goes snicker-snack. 2. The boy leaves the monster dead and galumphs back with its head. 21:19 and one and two and through and through 21:19 Oh, true. 21:19 the vorpal blade was presumably attacking somewhat before it snickersnacked 21:19 True. 21:19 in the poem, the hero uses the vorpal blade to behead the jabberwock. its not specifically stated that vorpal anything instantly beheads, but the one became associated with the other over time 21:20 I forgot that part. 21:20 that said, perhaps it did some conventional damage and /then/ instabeheaded it? that would make sense for a 5% reliable attack 21:21 alright, gonna wrap up here at work, about time for shift change. i'll be back on in a bit 21:21 ais523: my version is "One-two! One-two! And through and through" 21:22 aosdict: that makes sense, I was going from memory 21:23 * ais523 idly wonders if a real-life sword, in real-life combat against an opponent unskilled at sword fighting, would be more or less than 5% reliable at beheading the target if you were trying to do that 21:23 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) killed Sir Garland, on T:27864 21:24 Probably works best against things with long skinny necks. Ostriches, jabberworcks, etc. 21:24 *ocks 21:24 I'm not sure that there's any consensus on how a jabberwock is shaped 21:24 although I think many people consider it to be a type of bird? 21:25 It's generally assumed to be avian, sometimes with dragon-ish characteristics. 21:25 There is a common piece of artwork that was published with an early edition, that a fair number of people are familiar with; but it is not strictly canonical. 21:26 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jabberwocky.jpg 21:26 that vorpal sword looks more or less like a regular sword 21:27 Yes. 21:27 But maybe it's extra-sharp or something. 21:33 I played a game of Nomic once, someone decided to give themselves a "vorpal greatsword" which involved lots of annoying dice rolls and calculation. Didn't end the game, but killed the fun of it. 21:33 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) killed the Nightmare, on T:28489 21:34 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) destroyed Lich, the Fiend of Earth, on T:28565 21:34 hmm, your game of nomic went fairly differently to mine 21:34 in Agora Nomic at the moment, we're still trying to build a working economy 21:34 we haven't really had one for years 21:35 (Agora Nomic is a bit of a special case; it changed the rules fairly early on so that a win wouldn't end the game, and now it's been going on long enough to vote in many countries) 21:35 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) killed Kary, the Fiend of Fire, on T:28751 21:37 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) killed Kraken, the Fiend of Water, on T:29021 21:37 Yeah, in the nomics (nomiclikes?) I've played, they haven't been groups of people necessarily with the same general goal 21:37 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) killed Tiamat, the Fiend of Wind, on T:29082 21:37 goals* 21:40 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha) killed Garland, on T:29604 21:41 aosdict: the defining feature of a nomic is that the rules can be arbitrarily changed via moves that the players make in the game 21:41 anything that fits that definition is normally considered a nomic 21:41 would the giant angel please not kill the wimpy dude next time 21:41 I was not prepared to die to chaos 21:41 ;-; 21:42 [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha), 180603 points, T:29619, burned by a fireball 21:42 ais523: So basically Calvinball. 21:42 jonadab: calvinball can be described as a nomiclike, I think 21:42 there are some doubts as to how it actually works 21:43 Well, it's fictional, so technically it doesn't. 21:43 there are at least two reasons it might not fit the definition, which are contradictory: a) it's unclear whether it even /has/ rules, b) there seems to be a permanent rule that you can't use the same rule twice 21:43 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:43 Ah, and in a true Nomic, the rule that you can't use the same rule twice could be changed. 21:44 right 21:45 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 36 points, T:139, killed by a fumarole spores 21:46 wow, Agora's been running for over half the time that the concept of nomic itself has existed 21:47 ais523: yes. I have also played stuff like 100/1000 blank white cards which is not Nomic but is probably *a* nomic. 21:48 aosdict: right, 1000 blank white cards is weird because although it obeys all the requirements to be a nomic, its metarules are rarely if ever changed in practice 21:49 not in the group I've played it with 21:49 the fantasy rules commitee (which I played for quite a while, back when it existed) was similar; it had metarules which formed a nomic, but they worked so well that they were basically never changed in practice 21:49 maybe once a year at most 21:51 only actual problem with the structure of 1000 bwc I've encountered is the delay while you write a card 21:52 if 1000 bwc were played like a traditional nomic, it would likely be won within a single card 21:52 AFAICT, there's nothing besides people's sense of fair play that prevents you writing "as soon as you draw this card, ais523 automatically wins" 21:52 correct 21:52 but you don't do that because it wouldn't be any fun 21:52 yes, it's a rule of thumb 21:53 or that's what we call it 21:53 whereas in a nomic like Agora, we've spent over 10 years trying to prevent anything like that working, so that when it does, it's a particular show of skill 21:54 yes, it's not strategic, it's more like how can I change the game in a fun yet fair way 21:55 problem is, on occasion somebody has created cards that could be fun and fair, but they're tedious to execute 21:55 self-replicating cards, and stuff like that 21:56 right, 1000BWC is about creativity, not about winning 22:42 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:57 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 22:57 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 23:18 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu) killed Tilla, on T:1923 23:26 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 4464 points, T:2068, killed by a cowardly attack on her breasts 23:45 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 7160 points, T:6673, killed by a manes 23:51 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 500 points, T:1087, killed by a monster (unidentified raven) 23:58 [slex] Yuring (Mah Dro Fem Neu), 174 points, T:415, killed by a monster (nohoho)