00:59 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought
00:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ
01:32 -!- greqrg has quit [Quit: Disconnected]
01:32 <Beholder> [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law), 78225 points, T:14476, killed by a minotaur
02:00 <Elronnd> jonadab: is 6d6d6 (6d6)d6 or 6d(6d6)?
02:20 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
02:36 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought
02:36 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ
02:40 <Grasshopper> Elronnd, it shouldn't matter 
02:45 <bug_sniper> jonadab, are you there?
02:49 <Elronnd> Grasshopper: yess it should
02:49 <Elronnd> the upper bound will be the same, but the lower bound and the distribution will be different
03:09 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
03:12 -!- nht has joined #hardfought
03:15 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought
03:15 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ
03:22 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9]
03:31 <ais523> lower bound is 6 in both cases
03:31 <ais523> I think the distribution differs, though?
03:37 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
03:42 <Grasshopper> Elronnd, mathematical order of operations = no difference. It doesn't matter what numbers you roll on each die - the result will always be the same, however you carve it up
03:44 <Elronnd> Grasshopper: but you have different dice
03:44 <Elronnd> one way you have d6s, and the other way you could have d6s, d9s, d17s, d36s
03:47 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought
03:47 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ
03:59 <Grasshopper> you are still just multiplying numbers, and afaik (and can work out) order doesn't matter
04:00 <Grasshopper> the result for each die is independent of the other dice, so there should be no difference
04:05 <ais523> Grasshopper: compare 6d1 to 1d6
04:06 <ais523> in general, you get a flatter distribution when rolling fewer dice
04:09 <Grasshopper> ais523, I understood that elronnd was talking about rolling the same dice - obviously it will matter if you are changing the dice "sides" 
04:09 <ais523> Grasshopper: 6d(6d6) means you roll 6d6 to get the number of sides of a dice, then roll 6 of those
04:09 <ais523> whereas (6d6)d6 means that you roll 6d6 to get a number of dice, then roll that many 6-sided dice
04:10 <ais523> did you read the former as d6×(6d6) (and the latter accordingly)? that doesn't really work, the letters are in a different order
04:10 <Grasshopper> I understand 6d6d6 to be (1 to 6)*(1 to 6)*(1 to 6)
04:11 <ais523> why? that's not consistent with the notation at all
04:11 <ais523> that'd be d6×d6×d6
04:11 <Grasshopper> yes
04:11 <ais523> and because I was already working out the calculation: (2d2)d2 has a 1 in 16 chance of rolling 2 (you need to roll two 1s on your first two d2s, meaning you roll two more d2s, those both have to be 1s too), whereas 2d(2d2) has a (¼×¼)+(⅑×½)+(1/16×¼) = 1/16+1/18+1/64 which is clearly higher
04:12 <ais523> $ perl -Mbigrat -E 'say 1/16+1/18+1/64'
04:12 <ais523> 77/576
04:12 <ais523> whereas 1/16 is 36/576
04:25 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
04:35 <Grasshopper> that doesn't make any sense
04:44 <Grasshopper> (2d2)d2 = (2*(d2))*d2 which gives a 1/4 chance of rolling a 2
04:51 <Grasshopper> conventionally for RPGs, "d6" means a six sided die so 6d6d6 means 6*d6*d6 
04:59 <Grasshopper> ie the number of sides for each die is already known
05:00 <Grasshopper> this notation convention has its origins in PnP RPGs where people are rolling real dice, so things like a "d17" just don't exist
05:08 <ais523> Grasshopper: "2d2" does not mean "d2×2"; you roll two different 2-sided dice, you don't roll one dice and multiply the result by 2
05:08 <ais523> !2d2
05:08 <Beholder> ais523: 2 + 1 = 3
05:08 <Grasshopper> So, my error was in assuming when Elronnd wrote "6d6d6" that he meant "d6d6d6" or "d6*d6*d6"
05:09 <ais523> there's no "d" at the start
05:09 <Grasshopper> I really don't know how the jonadab's function works, I jusst assumed according to notational convention
05:09 <ais523> incidentally, DCSS is infamous for using rolls like d(d(d6))
05:10 <Grasshopper> ais523, yeah - but that would just simplify it (according to my original assumptions as above)
05:14 <Grasshopper> I think I'll pull my head back and start focussing on my next PnP game with real dice :P
05:25 <Grasshopper> !2d2d2
05:26 <Grasshopper> !2d2
05:26 <Beholder> Grasshopper: 1 + 2 = 3
05:26 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:26 <Grasshopper> !2d(2d2)
05:26 <Grasshopper> Beholder is stumped too
05:35 <Beholder> [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:7037
06:10 <Beholder> [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:9621
06:43 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought
06:43 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ
06:49 <jonadab> Elronnd: Most things are left-associative, but who knows.
07:08 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse\splat
07:08 -!- raisse\splat is now known as theRaisse
07:09 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse
07:26 <Beholder> [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) killed Medusa, on T:15125
07:30 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
07:35 <Beholder> [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 78714 points, T:15647, killed by a minotaur
07:42 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought
07:42 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ
07:46 <Demo> i think i might finally try to ascend an undead slayer
07:58 <raisse> is that a slayer who is undead, or someone who slays undead, or both?
08:05 <raisse> !tea
08:05 * Beholder delivers raisse a shot of oolong tea, decanted by the late Pinobot at 302 Kelvin.
08:05 <raisse> only a shot? I need more tea than that
08:05 <Demo> well seeing as you cant play a vampire undead slayer in vanilla id go with the second
08:05 <raisse> !tea
08:05 * Beholder hands raisse a cup of oolong tea, fermented by TheresaMayBot at 87 degrees Celsius.
08:05 <raisse> a cup! thanks Beholder!
08:07 <Demo> oh nice i step onto a level
08:07 <Demo> and the stair read elbereth about a million times
08:08 <raisse> at least you're warned
08:10 <Demo> nah it was the mall
08:10 <Demo> and i didnt get a message on entry
08:10 <Demo> which means it was bones
08:10 <Demo> well technically the message i got was that their was writing at my feet
08:10 <raisse> yes, I meant you were warned that it was bones by the writing on the floor
08:11 <raisse> because the random level generator doesn't write a zillion Elbereths
08:11 <Demo> no i was already warned actually due to a bug
08:11 <Demo> where the mall message appears before the you went down the stairs message
08:11 <Demo> but no mall message appeared
08:12 <Demo> which meant it was a bones level
08:12 <raisse> oh, you knew that before you saw all the elbereths
08:12 <Demo> yes
08:12 <Demo> even though the elbereths were on the stairs coming in
08:15 -!- nht has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:15 -!- nht_ has joined #hardfought
08:16 -!- nht_ is now known as nht
08:32 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought
08:44 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.]
08:44 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought
08:46 <raisse> break open box, stash spellbooks  in box, notice that one of the spellbooks is knock.
08:49 <Grasshopper> that'd be right
08:49 <Grasshopper> does that mean you already knew knock?
08:49 <raisse> yes, but forgot to cast it
08:50 <Grasshopper> lol, urgh
08:50 <ais523> I can easily imagine a NetHack character who knows how to unlock boxes but finds that smashing them up is more fun
08:51 <Demo> rugnu the cavewoman
08:51 <raisse> probably not the gnomish wizards 
08:54 <Demo> oh wow you can use shopkeepers to enumerate through the items in cursed bohs
08:54 <Grasshopper> ais523, btw I did an analysis of 2d(2d2) vs (2d2)d2 and found that the probability curve for 2d(2d2) is significantly weighted towards the lower end than (2d2)d2 (although the minmax are still the same)
08:54 <Grasshopper> but i guess I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know
08:55 <ais523> yes, that's what I'd expect
08:55 <ais523> it's to do with the central limit theorem, adding together a lot of similar distributions nearly always tends towards a normal distribution
08:56 <ais523> (xdx)dx is a sum of a large number of dx'es, so you'd expect it to converge to a normal
08:56 <ais523> whereas xd(xdx) is a sum of a much smaller number of xdxes, so it could well be much more skewed
08:57 <ais523> that said, I'd expect both of them to look more and more like a normal as x got higher
08:57 <Grasshopper> yes
09:01 <Demo> man i hate chameleons
09:04 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
09:04 <Grasshopper> interesting to note that 2d(2d2) gives a 2/19 chance of giving you a "2" (the minimum) but (2d2)d2 gives only 1/36 chance of a "2" 
09:06 <Grasshopper> anyway, time to move on from that :P
09:22 <aosdict> Grasshopper: I like that you referred to him as "the jonadab"
09:22 <Grasshopper> oh lol that was an accident :D
09:22 <aosdict> congrats jonadab, you have officially reached definite-article status!
09:22 <Grasshopper> sometimes my fingers move faster than my brain
09:28 <Grasshopper> wow, 12x5 throneroom
09:31 <K2> neat
09:31 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-23 18:08 EDT: fixed digging
09:31 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-23 18:28 EDT: beholder is not reporting fiqhack deaths
09:32 <K2> FIQhack updated
09:37 <Beholder> [fh] K2 (k2) (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 5284 points, T:431, killed by a jackal
09:38 <K2> FIQ - I didnt change anything with or restart beholder
09:38 <K2> working
09:42 <aosdict> apparently there was a Luxidream death in fiqhack that didn't get reported yesterday
09:42 <aosdict> I think FIQ was watching it or something
09:52 <K2> hmm
09:53 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: too tired to IRC]
10:01 <Demo> i forgot how annoying slashem doppleganger was
10:02 <Beholder> [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:597
10:51 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a fix
10:51 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
10:51 <FIQ> aosdict: 2 games actually
10:52 <FIQ> see Mandevil's scoreboard
10:52 <FIQ> both of the Luxidream's deaths went unreported
10:52 <FIQ> but clearly xlog was populated since scoreboard picked them up
10:52 <FIQ> (fix is not related to these reports, I got a bug report in mail earlier)
10:54 <FIQ> K2: mtf died, his death wasn't reported either...
10:55 <FIQ> look at this https://scoreboard.xd.cm/recent.fh.html
10:55 <FIQ> actually I wonder
10:56 <FIQ> !mintc Luxidream
10:56 <FIQ> hmm
10:58 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought
10:58 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ
11:09 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:13 <Demo> so after not playing vanilla slashem for a while and doing another game i think i might finally see why it is disliked
11:14 <aosdict> any particular reasons?
11:15 <Demo> i like it for the power creep but i see ppl complain about the lack of balance
11:17 <FIQ> Demo: IMO dnethack is what slash'em should've been
11:17 <Demo> yes
11:17 <Demo> i love nh
11:17 <Demo> dnh
11:17 <Demo> way more powercreep
11:17 <FIQ> it also adds a lot of stuff but has actual thought put into it
11:18 <Demo> and explosions
11:18 <Demo> yeah
11:18 <Demo> so much thought on some things
11:18 <Demo> where as slashem is just adding a lot of things for what seems like the hell of it
11:18 <Demo> slashem is more stable though
11:18 <aosdict> to be fair that's in its very name
11:18 <Demo> yeah
11:18 <FIQ> super lots'a something extended magic
11:18 <aosdict> the goal isn't putting thought into it, the goal is super lotsa adding stuff
11:19 <Demo> thats what slex is for
11:20 <FIQ> aosdict: btw
11:20 <FIQ> have you considered making bilious patches of your balance tests?
11:20 <Demo> wish dnh had a slashem doppleganger like race
11:20 <Demo> aka wish wtw was a thing
11:20 <FIQ> doppelgangers are so broken though :P
11:21 <Demo> yeah exactly
11:21 <Demo> which is why i said like
11:21 <Demo> wtw seems like a pretty good balance on them
11:21 <aosdict> FIQ: I don't think anything I ever submitted to bilious has ever been published there
11:21 <FIQ> aosdict: hmm
11:21 <FIQ> why?
11:22 <aosdict> since there are only 3 3.6 patches listed on it I assumed it wasn't really drawing much attention anymore
11:22 <FIQ> mhm
11:22 <FIQ> I look at it every now and then
11:22 <FIQ> to see if there's some new fun stuff
11:22 <FIQ> but I'm always disappointed
11:22 <aosdict> also, my patches have been very small, and numerous
11:22 <aosdict> thus far
11:22 <FIQ> when did you add your first one?
11:22 <FIQ> note how inactive nhqdb has been
11:23 <FIQ> I think it's maintained by the same person
11:23 <aosdict> you mean submit to bilious?
11:23 <FIQ> yes
11:23 <aosdict> year, year and a half ago? not that it was a great patch, but I never heard anything back
11:23 <FIQ> ah
11:23 <FIQ> ok
11:23 <aosdict> I know that at least ilbelkyr maintains the qdb, but I thought only paxed maintained bilious
11:24 <FIQ> I thought bcode/ilbelkyr (same person) maintained both
11:25 <aosdict> I never heard either way whether ilbelkyr maintained other alt.org stuff
11:26 <FIQ> 596bc643412465261ebffb6e726360e17ff14508
11:26 <FIQ> this 3.6 commit is good
11:26 <FIQ> I've considered doing something similar
11:27 <FIQ> aosdict: what was the patch(es) you made btw?
11:27 <aosdict> the one submitted to bilious, or my current work
11:27 <aosdict> ?
11:29 <FIQ> bilious
11:30 <aosdict> I think it was something along the lines of making G have a vulnerability to, and fear of, chicken eggs
11:30 <aosdict> based on Oz lore
11:34 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought
11:47 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:50 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought
11:50 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ
12:05 <FIQ> !tell K2 fiqhack updated, made show_uncursed an interface option
12:05 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
12:27 <Beholder> [4k] Allydra (Cassumbra) (Val Hum Fem Neu), 3489 points, T:1376, quit
12:38 -!- greqrg has joined #hardfought
12:54 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought
12:54 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ
13:04 <Demo> man undead slayer quest as dopple is a pain
13:05 <Demo> from purple worm to basilisk to vorpal jabberwock
13:08 <bug_sniper> !lotraisse Demo
13:08 <bug_sniper> I knew I'd get no response but just wanted to try that
13:10 <Beholder> [4k] Warturg (Cassumbra) (Bar Gia Fem Cha), 306 points, T:237, killed by a water demon
13:34 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:39 <Demo> so i forgot how to play slashem post quest
13:41 <Beholder> [4k] Wartug (Cassumbra) (Bar Gia Fem Cha), 3057 points, T:2453, killed by a water moccasin
13:49 -!- Elronnd is now known as WartHug
13:49 -!- WartHug is now known as Elronnd
13:59 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
14:15 <Demo> guess ill just take on vecna
14:30 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought
14:30 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ
14:35 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:43 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought
14:44 -!- stenno is now known as Guest83764
14:44 -!- Guest83764 has quit [Changing host]
14:44 -!- Guest83764 has joined #hardfought
14:44 -!- Guest83764 is now known as stenno
14:52 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed update
14:52 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
14:52 <stenno> push the button
14:54 <Beholder> [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Ana Dwa Fem Cha) killed Medusa, on T:13689
14:58 <stenno> FIQ: can i dip for exca normally as law hum valk in fiqhack?
14:58 <FIQ> yes
14:58 <stenno> kk
14:58 <FIQ> also, wow
14:58 <FIQ> MTF played a knight using a dragon as mount
14:58 <FIQ> I didn't realize but apparently mounts actually use their breath in fiqhack
14:58 <FIQ> making it actually useful
14:59 <stenno> nice
15:00 <FIQ> coupled with the speed boost
15:01 <FIQ> !setmintc FIQ
15:01 <Beholder> FIQ: Usage: !setmintc [turncount]
15:05 <Beholder> [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Ana Dwa Fem Cha) killed Sir Garland, on T:14088
15:06 <Beholder> [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Ana Dwa Fem Cha) destroyed Lich, the Fiend of Earth, on T:14154
15:06 <Beholder> [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Ana Dwa Fem Cha) killed Kary, the Fiend of Fire, on T:14158
15:10 <Beholder> [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Ana Dwa Fem Cha) killed Kraken, the Fiend of Water, on T:14300
15:10 <Beholder> [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Ana Dwa Fem Cha) killed Tiamat, the Fiend of Wind, on T:14332
15:13 <Beholder> [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Ana Dwa Fem Cha) killed Garland, on T:14396
15:14 <Beholder> [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Ana Dwa Fem Cha) destroyed Chaos, on T:14450
15:20 <aosdict> what's the difference between killing Sir Garland and killing Garland?
15:21 <Tarmunora_> Sir garland is at the start of the quest
15:21 <Tarmunora_> Garland is at the end and he spawns Chaos when killed
15:22 <Tarmunora_> Neither Garland or Sir Garland are dangeous
15:22 <Tarmunora_> *dangerous
15:22 <Tarmunora_> *or -> nor
15:22 <aosdict> is there any relation between the two Garlands?
15:23 <aosdict> like, a reincarnation?
15:23 <aosdict> or a Ganondorf -> Ganon thing?
15:24 <FIQ> it's supposed to be the same monster
15:24 <Tarmunora_> It's a Final Fantasy reference iirc
15:30 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:37 <K2> ok
15:37 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-24 10:51 EDT: pushed a fix
15:37 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-24 12:05 EDT: fiqhack updated, made show_uncursed an interface option
15:37 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-24 14:52 EDT: pushed update
15:38 <aosdict> three updates for the price of one!
15:38 <FIQ> sorry
15:38 <FIQ> K2: how can I check tc of others?
15:39 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
15:39 <K2> tc?
15:40 <FIQ> turncount
15:40 <FIQ> mintc
15:40 <K2> ah
15:40 <K2> been so long... one sec
15:41 <K2> FIQhack updated
15:56 <K2> ok i see
15:56 <K2> apparently myself and Tangles can set mintc for anyone
15:56 <K2> dont see anyway to actually check it
15:57 <K2> hmm
15:57 <K2> !setmintc K2
15:57 <Beholder> K2: Min reported turncount for k2 removed.
15:57 <K2> well there
15:58 <K2> !setmintc K2 200
15:58 <Beholder> K2: Min reported turncount for k2 set to 200
15:58 <FIQ> K2: well I was wondering if Luxidream/MTF had minturncounts
15:58 <FIQ> which would explain why their deaths aren't reportede
15:58 <FIQ> *reported
15:58 <K2> !who
15:58 <Beholder> K2: mtf [fh] 
15:59 <K2> you should ask him
15:59 <FIQ> but he doesn't even lurk IRC :P
15:59 <K2> !setmintc mtf
15:59 <Beholder> K2: No min turncount for mtf
15:59 <K2> he never had one
16:00 <FIQ> is it case-sensitive?
16:00 <FIQ> ah nvm
16:00 <FIQ> K2: but then why aren't deaths reported? :(
16:01 <FIQ> https://scoreboard.xd.cm/recent.fh.html
16:01 <FIQ> one of your deaths went unreported
16:01 <FIQ> as was MTF's
16:01 <FIQ> and all of Luxidream's
16:01 <K2> one of my recent ones was because i had setmintc for 200
16:01 <FIQ> ah
16:02 -!- mode/Beholder [+Zi] by Beholder
16:02 -!- karatkievich.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ /dev/null/nethack tribute tournament hosted here starting midnight PST on Nov 1st -  https://redd.it/7184xn
16:02 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ
16:02 <aosdict> !booze nobody
16:02 * Beholder hands nobody a cup of green tea, replicated by FCCBot at -1 degrees Celsius.
16:02 <K2> restarted
16:02 <aosdict> aw, a second too late
16:03 <FIQ> cold tea
16:03 <FIQ> but not silly so
16:03 <aosdict> iced tea?
17:09 -!- nht has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:16 -!- noty has joined #hardfought
17:49 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought
17:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ
17:52 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
18:27 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed updates that improves frame joining of inventory sidebar
18:27 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
18:29 <FIQ> jonadab: I messed with window handling
18:29 <FIQ> Which was last touched around 2014
18:29 <FIQ> I'm sure no bugs will arise from this
18:30 <jonadab> FIQ: fix the network protocol next.
18:31 <jonadab> What could possibly go wrong?
18:31 <FIQ> I fixed an ancient off-by-1 error in the sidebar
18:31 <FIQ> and made it so that if you have inventory + "things that are here"
18:31 <FIQ> the frame is actually connected properly
18:31 <FIQ> also fixed issues regarding frame joining with borders semi-disabled
18:31 <jonadab> Oh, hmm, I hadn't _noticed_ a bug in that.
18:32 <jonadab> Oh, I see.  The border above "Things that are here" doesn't connect at the ends.
18:32 <FIQ> more than just that
18:32 <FIQ> but that is the most obvious one, yes
18:32 <FIQ> notice how it has 2 blank spaces
18:32 <FIQ> before the latter |
18:33 <FIQ> this applies to the entire sidebar
18:33 <FIQ> not just the border
18:33 <jonadab> Oh, hmm.
18:33 <FIQ> there is 2 off-by-1 issues
18:33 <FIQ> one that makes 1 character unused for border and headers
18:33 <FIQ> one that makes 1 *additional* one unused for the actual inventory
18:33 <jonadab> I see one blank space only, but yes, now that you mention it, I see it.
18:33 <jonadab> Oh, I see.
18:33 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought
18:34 <jonadab> Huh, yeah, now that you mention it, really long-winded inventory items do cut off a space early.
18:34 <FIQ> http://home.fiq.se/fixes.png
18:35 <FIQ> I'm not 100% happy with these changes
18:35 <FIQ> I want to ask ais about it all
18:35 <FIQ> Mostly the way I handle frame joining after the refactor
18:36 <jonadab> I think I might've left _one_ blank space to the right of inventory items, for aesthetic reasons.
18:36 <FIQ> jonadab: I see no reason to
18:36 <jonadab> That's very arguable though.
18:36 <FIQ> But yes, currently there is 2
18:36 <FIQ> See my last 3 commits for what I did
18:37 <FIQ> The 2 first should be good, I'm not sure if I'm entirely happy with the last one (improving frame joining)
18:37 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought
18:37 <FIQ> Well, that is convenient :-)
18:37 <jonadab> Heh.
18:37 <FIQ> FIQ │ I'm not 100% happy with these changes :: FIQ │ I want to ask ais about it all
18:38 <FIQ> ais523: I pushed some fixes that 1: addresses several off-by-1 errors in sidebar, and 2: improves frame joining of things
18:38 <ais523> to which repo?
18:38 <FIQ> to fiqhack
18:38 <FIQ> this is how it looks post-fixes: http://home.fiq.se/fixes.png
18:38 <ais523> right
18:38 <FIQ> ais523: however, I am not completely happy with the way I fixed frame joining with the sidebar window parts
18:39 <ais523> I guess it's arguable whether the "things that are here" should be a window of its own or clearly part of the inventory
18:39 <ais523> however I think it's minor enough that I don't care which way it's done, and it clearly shouldn't be an option
18:39 <FIQ> namely, to properly join frames, I need to update the frame windows each time draw_sidebar is called
18:39 <jonadab> For once, I agree that there's no reason for that to be an option.
18:39 <FIQ> I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not
18:40 <FIQ> 040fd04 (nice commit hash) is the one I am unsure with
18:40 <ais523> what do you mean by "update the frame windows"?
18:40 <FIQ> The 2 previous commits should be good though, I think, it fixes the off-by-1 errors in the sidebar
18:40 <FIQ> ais523: Basically, I want to join the "things that are here" and the inventory frames. To do this, I must refresh the entire frame whenever sidebar updates
18:41 <FIQ> I do this by adding draw_frame(); wnoutrefresh(basewin); as part of draw_sidebar
18:47 <ais523> I'm a little worried that this may lead to z-order problems
18:47 <ais523> e.g. having basewin drawn /on top/ of something that should be behind it
18:47 <ais523> the window setup in nhcurses is probably more complex than it should be, I preserved that from daniel_t rather than rewriting it
18:47 <ais523> I can see the problem, but I'm not sure if there's an easy fix
18:48 * ais523 makes a mental note to add one in libuncursed2
18:49 <jonadab> Well, I mean, tiling window managers can handle this sort of thing.
18:49 <ais523> right
18:49 <jonadab> There are no oddball shapes here, just rectangles split in half along a straight line.
18:49 <ais523> FIQ's current solution is probably the best one without making rather invasive code changes to nhcurses
18:50 <ais523> (the fundamental problem is that the line between the top of the sidebar and bottom of the sidebar is part of the sidebar, but the ends of the line are part of basewin)
18:50 <jonadab> With no overlap, there's no logical reason (apart from perhaps implementation details) why the windows should _need_ a z-order.
18:50 <ais523> you shouldn't worry much about efficiency at the terminal side of things, libuncursed's optimizer should be able to fix that
18:51 <ais523> jonadab: messages in front of menu has been a common z-order issue in the past
18:51 <jonadab> Messages have to have a z-order, yes.
18:51 <jonadab> Well, I mean, dialog boxes.
18:51 <ais523> anyway, I think that the sidebar is a derived window, isn't it? so writing to it effectively just writes through to basewin
18:52 <jonadab> I don't know the under-the-hood implementation details.
18:52 <ais523> I came up with some terminology for all this in libuncursed2 that works the same way as curses terminology but is much easier to understand
18:52 <jonadab> Every time I try to look at the UI code, I spend an hour trying to trace control flow and give up.
18:52 <FIQ> the UI code is *not* straightforward
18:56 <ais523> right, and many parts of it fundamentally didn't work and have been changed just enough to work but not really enough to make sense
18:58 <jonadab> I can believe that.
19:03 <K2> FIQ: should I update FIQhack or wait?
19:03 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-24 18:27 EDT: pushed updates that improves frame joining of inventory sidebar
19:04 <FIQ> K2: update should be fine
19:04 <FIQ> was mostly concerned about the code quality
19:04 <jonadab> What is the worst that could happen?
19:04 <FIQ> ais523: another thing -- I made show_uncursed an interface option
19:05 <FIQ> but I need to send a dummy engine command to get a refresh of the inventory
19:05 <FIQ> how can I do this?
19:05 <ais523> FIQ: is this something that changes only at neutral turnstate? or something that can change asynchronously?
19:06 <ais523> in the former case, there's an explicit null command used for things like options changes, farmove ending, and the like
19:06 <K2> ok
19:06 <ais523> in the latter case, very few API calls can safely be used async, farlook/mouselook is one of them (which would be a bit hacky), alternatively you could add a new one but that has its own problems
19:07 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought
19:21 <FIQ> ais523: any command, zero time or not, as long as it updates the inventory data to the client, will do
19:22 <ais523> oh, "updates the inventory data"
19:22 <FIQ> even the act of *inputing* a farlook
19:22 <FIQ> (and not even finishing it)
19:22 <FIQ> will update it
19:22 <ais523> I don't know how often that happens, vanilla has some rules for it but I don't know a) what they are, or b) if NitroHack follows the same rules
19:22 <FIQ> basically I need to flush inventory data
19:23 <ais523> I think the best thing to use would be the existing intentional no-op command (which should be being sent on options changes as it is, although I've seen some evidence that it isn't being)
19:23 <ais523> and simply program it to flush inventory if it doesn't currently
19:23 <FIQ> it should
19:23 <ais523> (this is assuming that options are only changed via the O command or via non-midturn save load)
19:23 <FIQ> considering that if I perform a ;
19:23 <FIQ> and the game asks where I want to farlook
19:23 <FIQ> it will have updated the inventory
19:23 <ais523> FIQ: does mouselook work?
19:24 <FIQ> one sec
19:24 <ais523> that's more "direct" than semicolon-farlook
19:24 <ais523> (my guess is no, given the way the API is organized, but it's worth checking)
19:24 <FIQ> mouse look doesn't work
19:25 <ais523> right
19:25 <ais523> IMO, you just send an "interrupt" command when the options are changed; you should be doing that anyway
19:25 <ais523> and if that command doesn't send an inventory update, send it so that it does
19:25 <ais523> s/you should be doing that anyway/the client should be doing that anyway/
19:25 <FIQ> how do I do this
19:25 <FIQ> :D
19:26 <FIQ> oh I see
19:26 <jonadab> ais523: At least one option has a separate binding just for changing it.
19:26 <FIQ> you already attempt this
19:26 <FIQ> it seems
19:26 <ais523> FIQ: right
19:27 <ais523> there's some reason to believe it doesn't work, though
19:27 <jonadab> (Though I personally always bind @ to nothing, to avoid getting autopickup turned on by mistake all the time.)
19:27 <ais523> e.g. if you change options, then open your inventory, I've heard rumours that the options change gets reverted
19:27 <ais523> jonadab: right, I already have enough trouble with offending vanilla users
19:27 <ais523> so wanted to keep @ doing the same thing
19:27 <ais523> also it /is/ useful in practice when you have pickup_types set, especially in 3.4.3
19:28 <jonadab> ais523: Right, I'm not complaining about the default binding; I don't mind changing the setting.
19:28 <ais523> which doesn't disable autopickup in shops
19:28 <ais523> that said, @ was a huge pain to implement in NH4
19:28 <FIQ> ais523: it is sent at the wrong point
19:28 <FIQ> I threw in a curses_print_message
19:28 <FIQ> at that point
19:28 <FIQ> it prints a message on the first time you select an option to change
19:28 <FIQ> and then never again until next time you open options
19:28 <ais523> oh, that would explain a lot
19:29 <jonadab> It would indeed.
19:29 <FIQ> that said, this doesn't actually seem to flush inventory :(
19:29 <ais523> you'd need to change that in the engine
19:29 <FIQ> even when I manage options to trick it into sending an interrupt
19:30 <ais523> I forget how "interrupt" is implemented, but it'd be easy enough to add an inventory update into that
19:30 <FIQ> well what confuses me is
19:30 <FIQ> I thought *anything* did
19:30 <FIQ> I mean, there is no reason for a farlook input request to flush the inventory
19:30 <FIQ> so I figured, if that did
19:30 <FIQ> everything did
19:30 <FIQ> I guess not?
19:33 <ais523> just putting update_inventory() into dointerrupt() should probably work
19:34 <jonadab> So wait, is something _in the engine_ caching the inventory, separate from the official list?
19:35 <jonadab> I could understand if the client cached the last list it was sent.
19:35 <jonadab> THAT would make sense.
19:36 <ais523> jonadab: right, inventory update is push, not pull
19:36 <ais523> the engine tells the interface that there's a new inventory available, and what it is
19:37 <FIQ> ais523: doesn't seem to work..
19:37 <ais523> huh
19:37 <ais523> it may be that things are broken in a different way from what I expected
19:38 <FIQ> which is weird
19:38 <FIQ> it should work
19:42 <K2> FIQhack updated
19:42 <ais523> FIQ: this is the point at which tracing things in a debugger might be necessary
19:44 <FIQ> back
19:44 <FIQ> ais523: was going to doublecheck something first
19:45 <FIQ> just checking if I am redrawing it properly
19:45 <ais523> oh, your theory is that the sidebar is actually updated, but the updated value isn't drawn on screen?
19:46 <FIQ> hm
19:46 <FIQ> also another thing
19:46 <FIQ> yeah I checked that
19:46 <FIQ> but it doesn't seem to be it
19:46 <FIQ> but another thing
19:46 <FIQ> I decided to change interrupt to welcome
19:46 <FIQ> which gives obvious feedback
19:46 <FIQ> nothing happens
19:47 <ais523> oh, bleh
19:47 <ais523> I wonder if the NitroHack engine thinks the command has been sent out of sequence
19:47 <ais523> and the NitroHack client just drops the resulting error message?
19:47 <ais523> that's the sort of thing that can be very hard to spot
19:48 <FIQ> but what I don't get
19:48 <FIQ> is why print msg still does stuff
19:48 <FIQ> ok so there is at least 2 errors going on here
19:48 <FIQ> 1: the command logic isn't called at the right place
19:49 <FIQ> 2: the commadn doesn't actually do anything
19:50 <ais523> this conversation should probably be in #nethack4, anyway? it's quite heavily based on nitrohack internals
19:51 <ais523> and I'm not sure other #hardfought users care about that
19:51 <K2> you'd be surprised
19:51 <NeroOneTrueKing> Sometimes I even learn things!
19:52 <K2> I like seeing these discussions here for what its worth
19:52 <ais523> right now I'm even trying to figure out what source file implements all this
19:52 <FIQ> ah
19:53 <K2> ais523: if you want to move the discussion, I understand. but you're more than welcome to discuss these subjects here
19:53 <aosdict> long conversations between nethack 4 authors are either about interesting design or libnethack stuff, or rather boring nitrohack internal stuff. Fifty-fifty.
19:54 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought
19:54 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ
19:55 <ais523> aosdict: right
19:55 <FIQ> aosdict: I didn't create nethack 4 though
19:55 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought
19:55 <ais523> the nitrohack stuff is more confusing to us because it seems even more arbitrary than NetHack's current design sometimes
19:55 <aosdict> FIQ: "nethack 4 and friends"
19:55 <FIQ> fair
19:56 <aosdict> on occasion, those subjects intertwine
19:56 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20:07 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Bin Dro Mal Non), 4 points, T:33, killed by a sewer rat
20:07 <rikersan> ignore that please
20:07 <rikersan> >.>
20:07 <FIQ> ais523: How well is that libuncursed2 going btw?
20:07 <FIQ> Not trying to pressure you, just curious
20:07 <NeroOneTrueKing> rikersan: seems about right for a binder.
20:07 <aosdict> rikersan: you can use !setmintc to make Beholder not announce early deaths
20:07 <aosdict> though you may have to change nick to rikerw
20:08 <Grasshopper> Medusa has 5 statues of me in her lair - I think she is a stalker!
20:08 <rikersan> nero: it wouldn't be that bad if _drow could see anything_
20:08 <rikersan> aosdict: nah I'm good
20:08 * aosdict zaps a wand of polymorph at Medusa. Medusa turns into an invisible stalker!
20:09 <ais523> FIQ: the library itself has come quite some way in terms of design but not very far in terms of code
20:09 <FIQ> ok
20:09 <ais523> normally when I sit down to work on coding it, I get distracted and make no real progress; sometimes I can put that energy into termtest instead
20:09 <FIQ> ok
20:10 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed Medusa, on T:39132
20:10 <FIQ> ais523: btw, did the mail arrive?
20:10 <aosdict> ais523: long shot, but did you happen to get the few hours you needed to work on your dungeon proposal recently?
20:10 <FIQ> the DT mail
20:10 <FIQ> or did it get stuck
20:10 <rikersan> oh hey congrats grasshopper
20:11 <ais523> FIQ: no, didn't arrive; I actually just emailed the devteam (less than a minute before you asked) to ask why it hadn't arrived
20:12 <ais523> aosdict: I made progress, didn't finish though
20:12 <ais523> it's actually open in an editor atm
20:12 <ais523> I might well have been working on it if I wasn't talking on IRC
20:12 <FIQ> ais523: ah, nice timing
20:13 <aosdict> malicious idea: I start talking about jonadab's dungeon overhaul so ais can work on his proposal
20:13 <rikersan> > blessed scroll, disrobe and safely read
20:13 <rikersan> it's earth and I kill my pet and lock myself in permanently
20:14 <ais523> aosdict: to be fair, the break helped
20:14 <ais523> presumably my subconcious was thinking about it
20:14 <ais523> and fixed a couple of issues I was having trouble with
20:15 <ais523> actually I could do with an excuse to not try to figure out how this NitroHack code works (sorry FIQ)
20:15 <ais523> I was kind-of putting it off anyway
20:15 <FIQ> it is ok :P
20:16 <ais523> I've come to the conclusion that it might just be easier to redesign the whole client/engine API
20:17 <FIQ> but that would mean basically throwing out the nitrohack part entirely...
20:17 <FIQ> that isn't NH4 anymore
20:17 <ais523> well, you can certainly question what NitroHack actually is, fundamentally
20:18 <ais523> is it the interface? a specific detail of the internals? a general attitude?
20:18 <FIQ> to me, nitrohack is where the interface originated
20:18 <ais523> there are probably easier ways to deal with the server code (and I already threw out half the NitroHack server code!)
20:18 <FIQ> the rest is less important because essentially the goal of NH4 has been to get rid of every single part of nitrohack that isn't the UI
20:19 <ais523> there are plenty of good improvements, e.g. C11-isation, which originated with NitroHack
20:19 <FIQ> ANSI C
20:20 <FIQ> originated with nitrohack I think
20:20 <FIQ> (in the NH4 development history, that is)
20:20 <ais523> right, NitroHack didn't aim at any specific version of C, I don't think
20:20 <ais523> just to rip out all the old compat code
20:21 <ais523> likewise, there are concepts like birth options which were probably good ideas, even if the underlying code for them wasn't great
20:21 <ais523> perhaps the goal of NH4 is to rewrite NitroHack's ideas with code that actually works
20:21 <FIQ> nitrohack option UI in general is more well designed than NH3 (except for the removal of rcfile editing)
20:22 <FIQ> ais523: in general when I deal with nitrohack code
20:22 <FIQ> it mostly *work*
20:22 <FIQ> it's just a huge pain to maintain
20:22 <ais523> sometimes, the code works but you can't find out why by reading it
20:23 <FIQ> hmm
20:23 <ais523> often, logically, it shouldn't work but it somehow does anyway (most likely due to the way in which the compiler handles UB)
20:23 <FIQ> I need to merge 4.3.0 into master soonish
20:23 <FIQ> I am not looking forward to it
20:23 <ais523> things like network-packet-delimited JSON are obviously ridiculous and were unlikely to have been designed intentionally
20:23 <ais523> at least I figured out why that worked eventually
20:24 <FIQ> why?
20:24 <ais523> but expecting a write() call on one system to match a read() call on the other is a complete misunderstanding of the API and it's only coincidence that it mostly worked in this acse
20:24 <ais523> *case
20:24 <ais523> FIQ: there isn't a 1-to-1 correspondence between system calls and network packets
20:25 <FIQ> (master has a bunch of refactors that is actually rather useful, but has unfinished stuff, it has stalled to a point where I use 4.3.0 mainly for development... so I need to merge 4.3.0 into master and collect all my refactors properly)
20:25 <Grasshopper> rikersan, thanks :D
20:26 <FIQ> ais523: ok
20:55 <jonadab> aosdict: Just be glad it's not a really long conversation about Pokemon.
20:55 <FIQ> pff
20:56 <aosdict> how the heck is all the resistance vs immunity stuff not on my YANI list already
20:56 <aosdict> there has been plenty of discussion about it before FIQ started talking about it on the 18th
20:57 <ais523> I just kind-of assumed it was
20:58 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:58 <ais523> in fact I thought there was a general assumption in the variant dev community that having intrinsic elemental immunity that works even against late-game attacks is a problem, and that allowing /extrinsic/ elemental immunity is likely a good thing
20:58 <aosdict> there is a possibility some of the ideas have been lost, due to my laptop possibly shutting down while I was in the middle of editing it
20:58 <aosdict> that would only have affected that batch though
20:59 <aosdict> well, no time like the present
20:59 <jonadab> FIQ: The real point of NitroHack was to separate the UI from the engine, hence the distinction between nethack/ and libnethack/, a distinction that doesn't exist in vanilla.  (Yes, windowports, but that's not the same; a ton of the stuff that's in nethack/ in NH4 isn't in the windowports in 3.)
20:59 <FIQ> ais523: for this reason I want a seperate flag that means "extrinsic but as part of role"
20:59 <jonadab> Also, getting rid of the hillion jillion ifdefs.
20:59 <aosdict> FIQ: you want resistance, immunity, and extrinsic immunity
20:59 <FIQ> so that I can give master mind flayers and fire elementals innate "extrinsic" telepathy and fire resistance respectively
20:59 <FIQ> and similar
21:00 <ais523> FIQ: that should be easy enough to add in the NH4 properties framework
21:00 <ais523> you might need to add a new property reason, but those things are fairly cheap
21:00 <aosdict> FIQ: actually, what you describe fits the definition of "intrinsic" pretty well
21:00 <FIQ> it it is trivial to add in fh property rework
21:00 <FIQ> -it
21:00 <FIQ> just I haven't because I want to figure out how to deal with the existing innate flag
21:00 <aosdict> I think for telepathy specifically, perhaps rebrand the current "intrinsic telepathy" to something else?
21:00 <ais523> right, your rework is basically just a continuation of mine
21:01 <FIQ> I feel like there is more than there needs to be
21:01 <FIQ> there is 4 innate flags atm
21:01 <FIQ> outside (corpses etc)
21:01 <FIQ> role race polyform
21:02 <FIQ> aosdict: I feel like having resistances be treated as resistance if intrinsic and immunity if extrinsic makes sense
21:02 <ais523> FIQ: do birth option trinsics (e.g. permablind) count as innates in your system?
21:02 <FIQ> Just needs to give the ability to give something the extrinsic effect innately
21:02 <FIQ> ais523: I kept your beginning of property rework
21:03 <FIQ> So it works similar
21:03 <FIQ> os_birthopt
21:03 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought
21:03 <ais523> FIQ: right
21:03 <FIQ> Which is intrinsic I think
21:03 <ais523> I'm just trying to clarify what "innate" means code-wise
21:03 <FIQ> let me see
21:03 <FIQ> oh huh
21:03 <FIQ> it would be treated as extrinsics
21:04 <ais523> I guess that's more consistent with how, e.g., Zen works in vanilla
21:04 <ais523> as in vanilla you use a blindfold for it
21:04 <FIQ> 289# define INTRINSIC    (FROMOUTSIDE|FROMRACE|FROMROLE|FROMPOLY)                                                 
21:04 <FIQ> 290# define EXTRINSIC    ~INTRINSIC                                                                               
21:04 <FIQ> note that timeout is extrinsic
21:04 <FIQ> despite being innate
21:05 <FIQ> this means that potions of speed gives very fast
21:05 <aosdict> is there an existing proposal for this, or should I start making one?
21:05 <aosdict> s/this/reworking intrinsics/
21:05 <FIQ> aosdict: codewise or designwise?
21:06 <FIQ> if latter, I don't think so
21:06 <FIQ> but several variants change mechanics
21:06 <FIQ> most notably sporkhack and dynahack
21:07 <ais523> as a start, I'd recommend just "some (maybe all?) elemental attacks pierce resistance, these attacks do half damage against resistant targets (rather than zero damage) unless the resistance is actually an immunity"
21:07 <ais523> and "resistances from extrinsic sources or from polyform are immunities"
21:07 <FIQ> this is how dynahac works
21:07 <FIQ> and what I agree with
21:08 <FIQ> *dynahack
21:08 <aosdict> ais523: well it depends if you wanted to do something more complex, like partial resistances from Spork.
21:08 <ais523> aosdict: right; I don't really like how Spork does resistances
21:08 <FIQ> I feel like it makes flavour sense
21:08 <FIQ> but doesn't work well for gameplay
21:10 <aosdict> I don't think I like the specific approach, but my point was if you wanted something more complex than half damage vs resistance, you need storage more complex than flags
21:10 <FIQ> well
21:10 <FIQ> timeouts exist
21:11 <aosdict> ais523: one of my current projects is to catalog all the effects that the major resistances protect against
21:11 <FIQ> no reason you can't do a numeric storage on top of this
21:11 <aosdict> not all of them are really that consistent or logical
21:11 <FIQ> something I've considered
21:11 <ais523> aosdict: I believe the biggest problem here is MR
21:11 <ais523> which blocks so many late-game attacks that could otherwise be interesting
21:12 <FIQ> is to try to make a single function for elemental damage
21:12 <FIQ> regardless of source
21:12 <FIQ> to handle it more consistently
21:12 <FIQ> this is kind of a thing already with poison
21:12 <aosdict> FIQ and I were discussing the problem with death magic the other day
21:12 <jonadab> YANI: resistances are capped at 100% and decay by 1% each time they protect you.  They reduce damage by the current %, so if your fire resistance is at 63%, fire-based attacks do 37% as much damage as usual, rounded down.
21:13 <aosdict> and jonadab and I brought up curse resistance at some point, which I am about to add to the list
21:13 <FIQ> aosdict: solution: remove death magic
21:13 <FIQ> dnethack has curse resistance
21:13 <ais523> jonadab: that goes somewhat against what I see the general idea of NetHack's balance to be
21:13 <ais523> but it isn't automatically a bad thing
21:13 <aosdict> that's your solution, I want to keep death magic if possible
21:13 <FIQ> fiqhack has it, not codewise (it's a special case) but as part of magicbane
21:13 <ais523> FIQ: so does vanilla, sort-of (Magicbane provides it but as a special case, not a trinsic)
21:13 <FIQ> which in fiqhack is the only thing that partially guards curses
21:14 <aosdict> Maybe I should break these long multi-person YANIs out of this table into yet another page.
21:15 -!- rumflump has joined #hardfought
21:15 <FIQ> one thing I like in fiqhack is that MR doesnat protect against nearly as much
21:15 <aosdict> Hmm, how about mummy wrappings providing extrinsic curse resistance?
21:15 <FIQ> but it is still the only realible way vs death magic
21:15 <FIQ> besides being undead
21:15 <FIQ> something I dislike
21:16 <FIQ> and haven't found a good solution for
21:16 <FIQ> aosdict: make mummy wrappings confer death res :P
21:16 <ais523> FIQ: I can see an argument for death protection being a trinsic in its own right
21:17 <aosdict> FIQ: I agree with you about removing _instadeath_ magic, and the associated death resistance. But I think death magic is still feasible even if it's not instadeath.
21:17 <FIQ> jonadab: hmm do you remember mummy stuff?
21:17 <FIQ> I never added that feature
21:17 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
21:17 <ais523> incidentally, D&D seems to combine death protection and drain resistance, but that's probably bad in NetHack
21:17 <FIQ> yes, excal isn't good enough
21:17 <ais523> because right now drain resistance is something that people often don't need but can consider as an MC substitute
21:17 <ais523> but death protection is something that everyone wants due to avoiding random oneshots
21:18 <FIQ> ais523: fiqhack removes MC protection vs drli
21:18 <ais523> so combining them just means that level drain attacks get less interesting
21:18 <ais523> FIQ: I can totally see that
21:18 <aosdict> oh good, the resistance stuff isn't lost, it's on the balance issues page
21:18 <ais523> incidentally, I've heard that drain resistance is considered a vital ascension kit item in Slash'EM
21:18 <FIQ> ais523: also I have considered making MC help vs item destruction
21:19 <FIQ> but not the elemental damage
21:19 <ais523> FIQ: that makes flavour sense, at least
21:19 <FIQ> from fire, cold, shock
21:19 <ais523> MC is normally viewed as "the portion of your body that's covered by armour"
21:19 <FIQ> in mele
21:19 <FIQ> *melee
21:19 <FIQ> right
21:19 <aosdict> ais523: nail on the head with my problems with death protection and instadeath magic
21:20 <FIQ> hmm
21:20 <aosdict> if instadeath magic is in the game and not blockable, then you get YAADs from bad RNG. If it is blockable, getting protection is the most important thing you can do
21:20 <ais523> I can see having an item (maybe an artifact) that does both, just as an option that players can use, but not really linking them to each other in all cases
21:21 <ais523> instadeath protection itself is basically just depth/resistance, and it's still consumably blocked by lifesaving
21:21 <FIQ> ais523: one thing I suggested a few days ago was to remove the random instadeath sources
21:21 <FIQ> but have one guranteed one (Orcus)
21:22 <aosdict> and also any form of death protection
21:22 <FIQ> my main issue with it was that it is mean to new players
21:22 <FIQ> aosdict had other issues with it
21:22 <ais523> FIQ: wand overhaul fixes part of that, at least
21:23 <aosdict> yes, namely, optimal strategy demands you wear life saving, just in case something goes wrong
21:23 <FIQ> well you will not find a gwtwod and die to it
21:23 <FIQ> but basic still kills
21:23 <FIQ> maybe I should up to skilled? this hurts barbarians though
21:24 <ais523> aosdict: I've seen the opposite argument; many players say that life saving is a waste of a slot that could be used for something better
21:24 <ais523> (typically reflection)
21:25 <ais523> however, the NH3.4.3 and probably NH3.6.0 ascension kits are not cramped enough to need anything else in that slot
21:25 <aosdict> ais523: well, this is assuming that orcus is the only death source and his death magic won't reflect from your amulet
21:25 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought
21:25 <ais523> (NH3.6.0 makes it a bit harder to get twoweapon, MR, reflection, and MC3 all at once, but there are still plenty of ways)
21:25 <rikersan> EPI: a teleportation gaze, not blocked by no-teleport levels, maybe uncontrollable
21:26 <FIQ> ais523: if/when you get a reply to DT I am happy to hear it
21:26 <FIQ> *from
21:26 <aosdict> rikersan: I think unnethack weeping angels do that, except melee
21:26 <ais523> FIQ: about your mail not getting through? I've had one email from someone saying that they didn't get it either (i.e. it's not just my email)
21:27 <ais523> however, the people who normally sort out technical problems with the DT's email haven't been online yet as far as I know
21:27 <FIQ> ok
21:27 <FIQ> also, my main issue with 3.6.0 MC changes is that it makes MC much more complex
21:27 <rikersan> aosdict: hm isn't that level tele? I know it is in dnethack
21:27 <FIQ> otherwise I don't mind the nerfs (but IMO displacement should be MC2, not MC1)
21:27 <rikersan> but a gaze attack would be so much eviler
21:28 <ais523> FIQ: displacement is actually really good (especially in the NH4 engine, and especially if you aren't invisible)
21:28 <FIQ> I feel like with the 3.6.x MC changes, the player should be able to see his/her MC publically
21:28 <ais523> just most people don't notice because they nearly always prefer MC3 (in 3.4.3), and often turn invisible even when they are displaced
21:28 <FIQ> ais523: basically nobody use displacement
21:28 <FIQ> due to MC decrease
21:28 <ais523> right
21:28 <ais523> I think this was an attempt to balance displacement
21:28 <FIQ> I changed it in fiqhack (swapped MR and displacement)
21:28 <FIQ> people still don't use it
21:28 <aosdict> ais523: invisibility baaaalance issueeees!
21:29 <ais523> aosdict: it's way worse in NH4, which tries to have realistic monster → player sensing
21:29 <FIQ> I've noticed that it makes dragons rather cofused with their AI changes
21:29 * aosdict wants to kill intrinsic permainvis
21:29 <FIQ> but otherwise it doesn't do that much
21:29 <ais523> although both NH4 and vanilla have an arbitrary dice roll which sometimes lets monsters see invisible players
21:29 <FIQ> *confused
21:29 <NeroOneTrueKing> re death magic: IF magic resistant then 4d4 damage, ELSE IF uhp>100 then 8d8 damage, ELSE instakill
21:30 <FIQ> what if death magic decimated the player's HP?
21:30 <FIQ> removed 90% of current HP
21:30 <aosdict> FIQ: that's exactly what I proposed
21:30 <ais523> I can see something like what are currently death spells instead doing 40% maxHP damage
21:30 <aosdict> well, not the exact 90% part
21:30 <ais523> 90% currentHP depends a lot more on situation and can easily be an effective instakill if anything else is around
21:31 <FIQ> 50%?
21:31 <NeroOneTrueKing> deal 40% of maxHP as damage, reduce maxHP by 10% ?
21:31 <FIQ> so half
21:33 <FIQ> ais523: in both NH4 and NH3, a monster in melee range will know your position regardless of displacement
21:34 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Bin Hum Mal Non), 5087 points, T:6142, quit
21:34 <ais523> FIQ: right
21:34 <ais523> there are a ton of hacks you need to make for something like invis or displacement to not be completely broken
21:34 <ais523> (I speedrun Neverwinter Nights, invisibility is pretty much completely broken there)
21:35 <FIQ> what if
21:36 <FIQ> if >5 tiles away, invis is in full force
21:36 <FIQ> if 2-5, you get an I marker fuzzed 0-1 space away
21:36 <FIQ> *1-5
21:36 <FIQ> and if discovered it basically stops working
21:37 <FIQ> until you flee >5 tiles again
21:37 <ais523> something like that could well make sense
21:37 <ais523> although 5 might be a bit high
21:38 <ais523> perhaps: if you're invisible, invis is in full force unless a) the monster is adjacent, or b) you take an offensive action
21:38 <ais523> at which point invis is dropped with respect to a monster until you break LoE from it
21:38 <ais523> (or maybe LoS?)
21:39 <aosdict> did you add a nice function that determines whether you took an offensive action with that Elbereth change?
21:39 <FIQ> what if invis is dropped as soon as you do something that should make it possible to track it?
21:39 <FIQ> for example
21:39 <FIQ> whacing in melee
21:39 <FIQ> throwing something
21:39 <FIQ> casting a directed spell/zapping a directed wand
21:39 <FIQ> *whacking
21:39 <aosdict> FIQ: even far away, invis should maybe not be undetectable unless you have stealth.
21:40 <FIQ> and then everything <=5 tiles away can track you but has a chance to lose track if >5
21:40 <FIQ> this nerfs stalkers
21:40 <FIQ> possibly extrinsic invis is more powerful
21:41 <FIQ> and stalkers have that
21:41 <FIQ> (and you can also, with the cloak)
21:41 <ais523> aosdict: basically the way it works is that there's a function for "if this monster isn't angry, anger them"
21:41 <ais523> the Elbereth change uses that to detect offensive actions
21:42 <aosdict> FIQ: My first step would be to eliminate permainvis, and not bother changing the invisibility mechanics yet.
21:42 <FIQ> ais523: this would also work as I replacement
21:42 <FIQ> fwiw
21:42 <ais523> I is still useful while blind
21:42 <FIQ> true
21:43 <rumflump> FIQ: implement all the things 
21:43 <FIQ> rumflump: ! you are back
21:43 <FIQ> also hi
21:43 <rumflump> visited a commune on 8/4 and then kept getting really lucky catching rides to other communes from there and just haven't gone home yet
21:44 <FIQ> ahh
21:44 <rumflump> I'm not really back - that would require physical access to my laptop
21:44 <FIQ> ok
21:44 <rumflump> lost it at Twin Oaks. well, forgot it there, but I'm remoting in for now
21:44 <rumflump> how's stuff
21:44 <FIQ> I see
21:45 <FIQ> stuff is going well :P a bunch of stuff has happened since you disappeared
21:45 <FIQ> mostly design talk
21:45 <FIQ> some new features
21:45 <FIQ> also, devnull tribute tournament
21:45 <FIQ> on hdf in November
21:47 <rumflump> november!
21:47 <FIQ> aosdict: hmm
21:47 <rumflump> I'll be home by then
21:47 <rumflump> is there a public log of this channel yet
21:47 <FIQ> yes
21:47 <Beholder> [slex] rikerw (Cha Ang Mal Cha), 3019 points, T:3080, killed by a blast of fire
21:47 <FIQ> https://www.hardfought.org/logs/
21:47 <aosdict> Reading the log would take a very very long time.
21:48 <rumflump> not if I search it for the things I'm interested in!
21:49 <FIQ> https://www.hardfought.org/irclog/ now with 100% less 404
21:49 <rumflump> mostly fiqhack and fourk and dnh and the sex lives of my junethack teammates
21:49 <rumflump> wait, not dnh. the mega one
21:49 <FIQ> hah
21:49 <FIQ> mega one?
21:49 <aosdict> slex?
21:49 <FIQ> lol
21:50 <aosdict> calling it now - the spiritual successor to slex will be called Mega Slash'EM Extended.
21:50 <rumflump> oh it is dnh
21:50 <rumflump> nvm
21:50 <FIQ> aosdict: haha
21:50 <rumflump> i assumed it would have a more grandiose name because it's got jedis
21:50 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
21:50 <FIQ> rumflump: you made people play fh! I'm happy to see people enjoy what I make
21:52 <rumflump> ha, cool
21:52 <rumflump> I was sort of around when ou did the arti wish thing
21:52 <rumflump> s
21:53 <FIQ> someone referenced fh in r/roguelikes, and people wanted to see a proper release so they didn't have to play online...
21:53 <FIQ> need to fix the missing tiles and make a proper windows release for stuff
21:54 <rumflump> "have to play online"
21:54 <rumflump> the benefits are so much
21:54 <FIQ> you tell them :P
21:55 <rumflump> ayyyy ' Change spellbook mechanics to reduce tedium ' finally :D
21:55 <Tarmunora_> But the downside is that you need an internet connection 
21:55 <FIQ> :)
21:55 <FIQ> online helps me too, lets me see if there is stuff people have issues with... but if people want to play offline I don't want to stop them
21:56 <Tarmunora_> and you can cheat playing offline :P
22:08 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha), 51 points, T:144, fell into a pit
22:11 -!- rumflump has quit [Quit: rumflump]
22:11 <Beholder> [dnh] rikerw (Brd Hlf Mal Cha), 205 points, T:973, killed by a water moccasin
22:20 -!- greqrg has quit [Quit: Disconnected]
22:52 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:17 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought
23:17 <rikersan> Demo: dnethack has some code in it for wtw, not all though
23:17 <rikersan> I'm not sure where it came from but they're partially implemented
23:19 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:22 <rikersan> looks like a role though, not a race (?)
23:25 <Tarmunora_> rikersan: I PMed you some irc logs of Chris_ANG talking about worm that walks
23:26 <rikersan> yep found those
23:26 <rikersan> confused the heck out of me
23:27 <rikersan> mostly due to my theme not likign the orange color
23:40 <aosdict> jonadab: I'm getting a kick out of fourk's caveman quest.txt
23:41 <aosdict> though they do use bisyllabic words sometimes, apparently?
23:42 <aosdict> and apparently Tiamat is well-spoken
23:47 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
23:53 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: quit]