00:00 [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law), 45467 points, T:3947, killed by a gray unicorn 00:11 [nh4] Galahad (phollenback) (Kni Hum Mal Law), 31511 points, T:3180, killed by a water moccasin 00:52 I just saw a guy in the office I'm working in today wearing this: https://www.redbubble.com/people/ionanderart/works/24727466-sons-of-cthulhu 00:53 must be a dnethack reference :) 00:58 More likely a Lovecraft reference I suppose... I wondered if it was a band or something, but google has nothing. 00:58 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:58 If he comes back I'll ask him :) 01:46 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:57 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:01 so much backscroll, and apparently I appear in it somewhere :D 02:05 lol, sometimes I think of "backscroll" as like the B-side of a record 02:05 except for a scroll 02:05 (often the B-side is the better side) 02:08 Tangles, I think that "Sons of Cthulhu" are like the gods of the lovecraftian milieu 02:08 hah, well in this case the backscroll apparently talks about spell memory in vanilla... I'd say something like "YANI: just implement the slashem system, where casting a spell helps you keep it in memory for a longer time" :) 02:09 and not casting a spell makes it expire quicker? 02:10 the slashem system goes "10k turns from reading a spellbook, reading it again adds another 10k as long as it has charges, and every cast adds 500 turns" 02:10 so if you never cast the spell, then you will forget it... but if you cast magic missile non-stop, you won't suddenly forget it 02:10 OK, very similar to Grunt then (maybe Grunt stole it from slash?) 02:12 I had a game of grunt where I had lost my spellbook for "cone of cold" and it was about to expire, but by casting it gazillions of times it lasted another 30000 turns (until I ascended, basically) 02:12 oh, nice! 02:13 cone of cold is so very useful in Grunt as it has all that lava throughout hell 02:13 sometimes, my slex characters scramble to get enough casts of a difficult to cast spell to make sure it's not forgotten before I can get enough practice to advance the spell and make it castable :D 02:13 and most of the bad dudes take extra damage from cold too 02:14 K2 hacked the Grunt code to show roughly how long it is until spells expire, making that system much more workable 02:14 because otherwise you'd get caught by surprise with spells expiring 02:14 did he use the 3.6.0 vanilla code for that? i.e. where it says "75-100%"? 02:15 it is a little bit different to vanilla... can't quite recall exactly, similar but different 02:16 iirc, I think it just puts a "*" next to the spell if it is going to expire in the next 1000 turns 02:16 anyway, start a Grunt spellcaster-role game and you'll see it 02:17 of course, in slex the game simply outright says how much spell memory you have left, and even gives warning messages: "Your magic missile spell is beginning to fade from your memory". when at 10%, and "You're about to forget the magic missile spell." when at 1% memory 02:17 well, I guess you will (mayybe spell needs to be close to expiring) I haven't played Grunt in a while 02:18 oh, apparently Grunt also tells me the exact amount (100%) 02:18 and K2 made those changes after, or close to end of, my last asc 02:19 maybe he ripped it out of slashem? 02:20 lol, apprently I have a Grunt wiz game active, I didn't even know 02:20 [gh] AmyBSOD (Wiz Kob Mal Law), 74 points, T:300, killed by a dwarf called gentle peep-toe high heels <3 02:20 I probably started the game to check out the spellcasting menu changes 02:22 alas poor AmyBSOD, I knew her well, Horatio 02:22 that indeed looks like SLASH'EM 02:23 huh, but I just fired up a regular SLASH'EM game on esm and there I don't have the spell memory display... 02:23 wondering where I got it from for slex then 02:25 AceHack had it first, I think? 02:25 3.6 added it from either there or someone who copied it, but only approximately 02:26 well the 3.6 version is different, it only gives approximations as to how much memory there is left (75-100% with a fresh wizard) 02:27 right 02:27 I'm not sure what the point of that is, but oh well 02:27 huh, weird, maybe I'm mistaken? it says 100% 02:27 I guess they wanted it to be a secret even though the player can track it accurately 02:27 on 3.61 at least 02:27 but somehow I seem to remember getting approximate values when I ascended 3.60 during junethack 02:28 maybe it says 100% when you first get the spell, and 75-99% later? 02:28 the 3.6 approximations range depends on your skill level in that spell type 02:28 and yes it says 100% when you first learn a spell 02:28 oh, so it was because my samurai was unskilled in all spells? 02:29 if you are "expert" then the range drops to 5% 02:29 so, 95%-100% for example 02:29 !tell jonadab What, you made rock traps not occur on the first few dungeon levels??? Are you trying to throw the game? 02:29 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 02:29 that range thing is imho a bit pointless 02:31 also, apparently (I never bother with spellcasting in vanillaoid variants) vanilla prohibits spellbook reading if your memory is higher than 10%, which makes me facepalm (just make it so that reading it sets it back to 100%! YANI for aosdict :D) 02:32 the idea is to stop you wasting "charges" of your spellbooks pointlessly 02:33 but isn't the actual effect that if you have, say, 25% memory left and know you won't have ascended before it runs out, that you have to wank off on your stash level for thousands of turns until it goes down to 10% and finally lets you re-read it? 02:34 you'd be doing pretty bad if it takes you >2000 turns to get through the planes 02:34 YANI: in the vanilla spellbook system, trying to read a spell while already having more than 10% memory in that spell says "You know that spell quite well already. Read the book anyway? (y/n) (n) _" 02:35 LarienTelrunya, that makes sense ^^ 02:35 :) 02:39 LarienTelrunya: AceHack already does that :-) 02:39 and I think all AceHack derivatives have that too (including NH4, FIQHack, Fourk) 02:39 really??? 02:40 that makes me want to check the source 02:40 whoa, you're right 02:41 NH4 libnethack/src/spell.c lines 448 onwards 02:41 it's not quite the same message: yn("Do you want to read the book anyway?") 02:41 very close, though 02:42 yeah, the general idea is the same 02:42 vanilla should do the same :D 02:42 ais523: you are part of the vanilla devteam, any chance of seeing it in a future version? ;) 02:42 if you have feature requests, email the devteam with them, that way everyone over here can go and debate it 02:43 I mentioned it at one point but it was part of a huge batch of other things and people lost track of it 02:43 if there's evidence that there's player demand, that makes it more likely 02:44 well I'm not playing vanilla outside of Junethack, and I only ever play samurai if I do, so I'm not really in demand, I just felt like throwing it out there 02:45 reading through the backscroll: I'm wondering what was the rationale behind making statue traps appear only from dungeon level 8 onwards 02:46 especially since slex has them being generated right from the start and they have never posed a problem; on dlvl1, a statue trap will become what, a lichen? how dangerous :D 02:46 ooh you suggested out-of-depth statue traps? that would make them interesting! 02:47 the best part is that slex already has code that could easily be used to make that a reality! :D 02:47 I don't see how anyone is meant to know whether a slex monster is out of depth or not :-P 02:48 well, bug_sniper will testify that getting a level 60 martian walker on dungeon level 28 would be considered out of depth (it happened in his junethack game) 02:50 of course, slex has animation traps, which simply spawn monsters out of thin air, and if the player has aggravate monster then those monsters can be out of depth 02:51 morning ) 02:51 :) 02:51 yo FIQ! do you agree that rock traps should be possible to spawn from the very beginning? 02:52 Grasshopper: pretty sure grunt got the "casting adds memory" from slash'em yes 02:53 not a fan of it because it encourages you to spam spells to enhance meory 02:54 FIQ: wtf, so you'd prefer your wizard suddenly forgetting what magic missile is even though he cast it dozens of times just a few turns before? 02:55 LarienTelrunya: I do not @ rock traps 02:55 LarienTelrunya: spells are magical 02:55 anyway what I proposed was to give a larger memory boost 02:55 but make it disappear on read 02:55 the book that is 02:56 yeah, I'm reading the backscroll 02:56 that would definitely mean "id the book if you want to polypile" 02:56 general conseus seem to think it is a good idea, if book generation is rebalanced properly 02:56 for example, the way fh generates them 02:56 or similar 02:59 omg 15:57 NetHack doesn't care if you live or die. Slash'EM wants you dead. Slash'EM Extended wants you to go, "Wait, WHAT? That can HAPPEN?" 02:59 hahahahahahaha :D 03:00 it's a shame rikersan isn't here right now, I guess I'd love talking about slex with him ;) 03:05 !tell jonadab It actually makes me sad you still think I'd doing lame stuff like savescumming to ascend slex. The reason why I didn't ascend it on hdf is that my connection from Germany is laggy, unlike the one on esm. But it would certainly be doable for me if I were to put in the effort. 03:05 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 03:07 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 03:07 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 03:07 (and besides, it would be easy to check esm's ttyrecs of my ascended game; purists would probably consider "backup save, get killed to make it count for junethack, restore and ascend after the tournament is over" to be cheating, but I didn't actually manipulate bad RNG results away or otherwise cheat by doing so) 03:10 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:18 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 03:18 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:18 -!- elenmirie_ is now known as elenmirie 03:22 ais523: wow you're still working on the dungeon proposal? is there an estimate when it will be made public? I'd looooooove to read it :) 03:23 LarienTelrunya: I just need to get a few hours together to focus on it 03:23 also I'm not sure it'd apply to Slash'EM as it has a rather different dungeon structure, but you may be able to steal a couple of branches from it :-) 03:24 I guess the blatant lostsoul abuse left a bitter aftertaste 03:24 (how many branches does slex have, anyway, compared to vanilla slash'em?) 03:24 oops I was backscrolled 03:24 well I'd certainly have to assess which parts of the proposal could reasonably be ported to slex, but things like new variants of existing dungeon levels would certainly fit :) 03:25 LarienTelrunya: just to clarify 03:25 do not under any circumstances bring up content, even implied, from jonadab's proposal witha is 03:25 *with ais 03:25 ais523: slex's structure isn't all that different from slashem, it adds the town branch and that's pretty much it 03:26 FIQ: yeah I read in the backscroll that the policy is in full force again 03:26 slex does however have the potential to generate a lot more special levels 03:26 yes but slash'ems structure is very different from vanilla, where I'm starting from 03:27 well slashem mostly has many more one-level branches, which are almost all optional, except the alignment quests (and even those can be skipped) 03:27 "skipped" 03:28 with sheanigans similar to waking up rodney from the outside 03:28 FIQ: my current slex char on esm woke up Vlad by filling his level with pets and magic whistling them until a high-level one ended up next to him :P 03:29 that seems a lot more complex than just using a drum of earthquake 03:29 but maybe you didn't have onen 03:29 *one 03:29 I have used similar tricks to skip sacrificing alignment keys in dnethack 03:29 until chris banned thought travel in votd :( 03:30 ais523: well I didn't have a drum, but I had a source of polymorph and one of polymorph control, so if the pet method had failed, I'd just have turned myself into a master mind flayer 03:33 right, that's the other common method 03:33 FIQ: did I ever tell you that slex fixed the possibility of hangup cheating at messages like "You die from your illness"? You found out it would let you circumvent death, but now hanging up at such a message would greet you with a DYWYPI prompt upon returning :P 03:34 one of the rarer methods for Rodney is to tame a monster through the wall and get it to wake him 03:35 LarienTelrunya: I still think your maxhp/pw+paralysis penalties are horrible 03:35 and I still think your wand destruction patch is horrible :P 03:35 hangup penalties are working as intended 03:37 at least wand rebalance patch punishes everyone equally 03:39 ais523: wtf, is it true that you're proposing to change vanilla so it has only the nh4 UI without a way to set it to tty??????? 03:39 LarienTelrunya: no 03:39 I'm proposing to add a new winowport that has only the NH4 UI 03:40 the existing windowports would still exist, including tty 03:40 ah, phew 03:40 somehow it sounded to me like "tty interface will cease to exist", causing the alarm bells to go off 03:40 glad that isn't the case :) 03:41 but I'm fed up with people trying to make the NH4 UI look like unix-tty, which misses most of the point 03:41 it would amuse me to see that happen 03:41 and people's reactions 03:41 so if I have a windowport of my own it makes it easier to avoid a huge slew of options 03:41 ais523: so you are fed up with yourself? 03:41 FIQ: I'm fed up with having been made to make that :-P 03:42 some of NH4's changes are controversial 03:42 ah 03:42 but for others, the only reason I can see to make them look like vanilla instead is to make them look like vanilla 03:42 ais523: sometimes when I talk to people who is stubborn on "this is shit, make it like NH3" 03:42 and proceed to implement exactly what they ask for 03:43 they eventually end up saying "well it still sucks" in the end 03:43 (or similar) 03:43 well, for some reason I agree with Demo that FIQhack's "look like nh343" does not really make the game feel like 3.4.3, although I'd yet have to figure out why that is; there's some subtle differences between them 03:43 see 03:43 this is what I mean 03:43 "it is different so it sucks" 03:43 >what is different? 03:43 "umm.. no idea!" 03:44 I know you for example have been complaining on intimiate details in how NH4 handles --More-- paging 03:44 things that I generally don't even notice myself 03:44 lol 03:44 and in fact was completely oblivious to until you brought it u 03:44 p 03:44 does FIQhack let you turn off the message ghost feature? 03:45 that's one notable difference 03:45 the darkening of messages? 03:45 the only way I can see it being a problem is if the terminal doesn't do color, though 03:45 FIQ: what was the option to make it "like 343" again? 03:45 FIQ: right 03:45 no, but it is in todo 03:45 I just forgot until you reminded me 03:45 LarienTelrunya: http://sprunge.us/TFDU 03:45 here are all the options I think 03:45 for how to NAOize fiqhack 03:47 ais523: one thing I found rather interesting 03:47 LarienTelrunya complained on the ghosting 03:47 well, one thing is the "fade messages to black", which vanilla does not have, I think I'd like to get rid of that entirely 03:47 as an experiment I told her to disable use_darkgray 03:47 which makes the ghosting color blue 03:47 she found it even worse 03:47 then I showed her that dynahack does exactly this 03:47 she wnet quiet :P 03:47 Dark blue as in "guild of optometrists let's try to make players require glasses to play" blue. 03:47 *went 03:47 LarienTelrunya: it's a feature I found made the game much, much more playable for me 03:48 hmm 03:48 because it means that you don't need to press ^P when you miss a message due to going fast, you can still see what it was 03:48 zapm has this feature as an option 03:48 let's see what it calls it 03:48 because I can't come up with a good option name 03:48 FIQ: well the dyna thing is weird, I still can't believe I actually played through the game with that since it's unbearable, but apparently I did 03:48 hm 03:48 fadelog 03:48 that's not a good option name 03:49 msgfading is better 03:49 ais523: fiqhack, as part of show_ac, and later on for keyboard hints, has a function to ask the windowport for how something should be displayed 03:49 I've considered using this feature to make show_uncursed an interface option 03:49 because it really should be 03:49 does this seem reasonable? 03:49 [fh] Schwabbeldiwutz (AmyBSOD) (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 1733 points, T:118, killed by a falling rock 03:50 blah 03:50 FIQ: is there any way that that could leak into the gamestate? 03:50 LarienTelrunya: it's too bad it generates before dlvl3, isn't it? :P 03:50 obviously you need to ensure that the windowport can't break sync 03:50 apart from that I don't see a problem 03:50 ais523: does gamestate include messages? 03:50 I don't think so 03:50 then no 03:50 unless we decide to save last messages for the dumplog 03:51 messages is the only thing I think that is entirely decoupled from gamestate 03:51 and never saved/etc 03:51 FIQ: the --More-- thing is still not vanilla-like. 03:51 and it used to be buggy, making dumplog message logs completely broken 03:51 LarienTelrunya: yes, I know 03:51 I don't really know how to properly fix it 03:51 You drop an uncursed banana named I like FIQhack very much, it is the best variant in existence!. 03:52 ais523: LarienTelrunya wants msg buffering to be able to overflow into the game area 03:52 it displays "You drop an uncursed banana named I like FIQhack very much, it is the--More--" 03:52 is there a reasonable way to implement his? 03:52 oh wait, that's the case in which vanilla's behaviour is actually broken, isn't it? 03:52 like how unix tty does it I mean 03:52 just make it not give a --More-- if it's a single message that is longer than one line? 03:52 the --More-- goes onto the second line of the screen 03:52 ais523: not quite how it works.. but yeah, it includes that behaviour 03:53 let it be known that I purposely didn't replicate that behaviour, rather than accidentally not replicating that behaviour 03:53 in vanilla it's very clear, make a --More-- prompt if there are several messages and they don't all fit on one line, but not put a --More-- mid-message if a single message is longer than a line 03:53 a single message will never be split partially 03:53 in NH3 03:53 so especially long messages can in fact cover more than 1 row 03:53 yep 03:54 is there ever an instance where the second/third line ends up left on the screen? 03:54 no 03:54 I know that a sufficiently long message can crash the game 03:54 slex tends to create very large messages at times 03:54 but never have I had it mess up the screen 03:54 hmm, what if the terminal is wider than 80 and the message wraps past the top-right of the map? 03:54 FIQ: so the two things where it's still not like 3.4.3 is 1. messages fade to (which is either black or dark blue) instead of completely vanishing, 2. --More-- prompts still appear mid-message 03:54 (unless interface traps are involved) 03:55 ais523: I don't think it messes up either but I'm less comfortable with that answer than I want to be 03:55 LarienTelrunya: if black/dark blue are unreadably dark, you could change the palette on your terminal (or if you were using a decent terminal, on libuncursed) 03:55 I'd need to double check 03:55 it should be easy enough to test 03:55 give me a moment 03:56 ais523: unlike you, I think LarienTelrunya's screen is set up with dark contrast 03:56 I think this is the usual setup 03:56 because in all of my screens, libuncursed's default pallet is horrible 03:56 because it's so dark 03:57 huh, well that was a simple way to create a segfault 03:57 I told you vanilla's message code was broken! 03:57 let me try 3.6 03:58 ais523: no matter how broken it is, it is clear what the *desire* here is, by LarienTelrunya 03:58 and I think unless you create degenerate messages, that is how it generally behaves 03:58 i.e. no crashes :P 03:58 What do you want to name this spellbook called aaaaaaaa...? 03:58 looks like the crash was fixed there, at least :-) 03:59 OK, and looks like the screen does update 03:59 this must be a codepath of its own 03:59 because the message shows a --More-- even though there isn't a message after it 04:00 and it's a codepath which is incompatible with any sort of fancy message log 04:00 FIQ: yeah, due to my office PC crashing a couple days ago, I'm on a new one where I don't have my putty defaults; I didn't adjust the dark blue color yet, but probably should 04:01 but I'm actually hoping that once the system administrator comes back from vacation he can fix my old one ;) 04:01 -!- Tarmunora_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:02 -!- Tarmunora_ has joined #hardfought 04:05 -!- honu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:06 -!- FIQ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:06 -!- noty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:06 -!- honu has joined #hardfought 04:07 i - an uncursed greased thoroughly rusty thoroughly corroded +100 pair of gloves called aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa named bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb (weapon in hand).--More-- 04:07 wow, so close to the limit 04:07 anyone know of any other adjectives I could pile on? 04:07 fireproof 04:07 would be rustproof in this case, but sure, that seems possible 04:08 too bad invisible items aren't a thing in vanilla 04:09 Menu item too long (260). Program in disorder - perhaps you'd better #quit.--More- 04:09 neat 04:11 -!- FIQ has joined #hardfought 04:11 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 04:12 !tell rikersan ah, it seems you despise dnethack's elder priest as much as I do! That thing is just terrible. It's so unbalanced and unfair that I'd really like to sever its goddamn tentacles and crush them to a bloody pulp. 04:12 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 04:15 !tell K2 pushed fh update 04:15 Will do, FIQ! 04:15 added msgfading option 04:15 https://git.io/vdfeJ 04:16 blank is the option I'll want? 04:17 If you use single-line msg buffer, probably yes 04:17 Leave unchanged will keep it on the screen at all times 04:17 one thing that still bugs me is that nh4oids have the quicktime event where you have to press a button very quickly if you want to interrupt yourself 04:19 uh 04:19 in NH3 you don't have an option to interrupt at all 04:19 would you rather have that :P 04:19 you can slow down animation speed 04:19 LarienTelrunya: a) that option doesn't exist in vanilla, b) if you want as much time as you want to interrupt you can prefix a count of 1 to every command 04:20 then you can do, e.g., (b is a spellbook) 1rb 1^A 1^A 1^A 1^A 1^A 1^A … 04:20 ais523: huh? can I prefix eating a corpse with 1 to only take one bite out of it? 04:20 (add an n before the 1 if you play numpad) 04:20 and yes 04:20 really??? 04:20 why wouldn't you be able to? 04:20 I also changed a behaviour change to msgcolor 04:20 if it is turned off, it will now behave like NH3 curses 04:20 you can do that in vanilla if you can find a friendly monster to help you out 04:20 which has white for active 04:20 gray for inacctive 04:21 FIQ: I avoided that because I thought it might end up trapping vanilla players into thinking an old message was current 04:21 but it makes sense as an option 04:22 ais523: wow it really works!!! 04:22 thanks! if I had known that earlier... ;) 04:22 I wouldn't add a time-based effect without a way to do the same thing via untimed inputs 04:22 ais523: if you ^A, count should be kept 04:22 shouldn't it? 04:23 I'm actually not sure, maybe it is 04:23 the difference is that ^A is the universal "repeat or continue", and I'm not sure continuing keeps the count 04:23 the reason I wanted to be able to do that is so I can eat exactly up to the point where my char is satiated, to minimize the amount of turns spent satiated and abusing DEX ;) 04:23 it'd make more sense to continue the current partial count 04:24 ais523: this behaviour change makes it not possible to use gray followed by blanking (it will be white, then blank) if msgcolor is disabled 04:24 maybe this is bad? 04:24 if msgcolor is disabled and blanking is disabled, I'd say you should probably stick to 3.4.3 coloring rules 04:24 as why else would someone use that combination? :-D 04:25 so... curses rules you mean? 04:25 because that option combination is not 3.4.3 04:25 you'd want to set msgfading to "blank" for that 04:25 err, blanking is enabled / fading is disabled 04:25 hmm ok 04:27 tweaked a bit 04:27 but I'm not sure if I like this end result 04:27 imagine you're playing in 80×24 04:28 it does allow you to mimic both NH3 curses and unix tty 04:28 isn't it identical to 3.4.3, assuming that the messages are shorter than 80? 04:28 with a different combination of options 04:28 err, 72? 04:28 but this change means msgcolor gives different colors based on the setting of msgfading 04:28 which I don't like 04:28 if msgcolor is disabled 04:29 active messages will be white 04:29 unles msgfading is set to blank 04:29 where it mimics unix tty 04:29 this is dubious 04:29 maybe I should just remove the ability to mimic NH3curses 04:30 ais523: I guess things like this is why you don't like options :) 04:30 it has the potential to make things rather complex 04:30 you could also combine this into the existing msgcolor option 04:30 how would I do that though 04:30 although that approach also has problems, as I found with AceHack/NH4 04:30 without making like 8 options 04:30 make it an enum option 04:31 it doesn't really seem to fit in this case 04:31 though 04:31 "color and fading, color without fading, white with fading, white without fading, gray with fading, gray without fading, gray with blanking" 04:31 (more sensical names of the options, but yeah, it would be awkward) 04:32 maybe I should have 3 options for msgcolor 04:32 "enabled", "gray only", "white only"? 04:34 or just "full", "white", "gray" 04:35 full/white/gray would make sense 04:35 (it's gray in NetHack, not grey, right? apart from Greyswandir) 04:36 it is Grayswandir 04:36 are you sure? 04:37 apparently so 04:37 I think there's at least one point that grey is used, but maybe it's somewhere else 04:37 Grey-elf 04:37 (but gray dragon) 04:37 in retrospect, that's bizarre, as it's clearly being used as a color there… 04:50 "grey elf" is taken directly from JRR Tolkein, who was a brit and they say it that way 04:51 but Americans say "gray" so it is "gray dragon" as it is describing the colour 04:52 fair enough 04:52 the wishing parser accepts both "grey" and "gray" interchangeably 04:53 and both "armor" and "armour" 04:53 I think internally it converts grey to gray 04:53 and then special-case grey-elf and grey-elves 04:53 50 shades of gray? 04:53 ais523: funny that you should mention that btw 04:54 I noticed that you used "colour" in some comments 04:54 in messages.c 04:54 when I was tweaking msgcolor/adding msgfading :I 04:54 :) 04:54 I normally use "color" in programmign contexts beacuse everyone else does, but comments don't really matter, so I slip into en_GB there sometimes 04:54 ah 04:54 dcss uses armour IIRC 04:54 which always threw me off 04:55 DCSS s 04:55 when using the obj lookup 04:55 *uses commonwealth English everywhere 04:55 mhm 04:55 but everything else uses US spellings :P 04:55 not sure if it's British specifically or some other variant with the same spellign rules 04:55 so I'm used to it 04:56 I sometimes do editing work where the style is US English based, and I have to throw out all my ideas of what is right and wrong 04:56 Heh 04:56 Mr becomes Mr., colour becomes color, etc 04:57 I thought Mr. was correct in British English too 04:57 ummm, I don't think so but tbh I'd probably need to double check 04:59 Grassy: ais is a brit 04:59 he probably knows :) 05:00 it's possible I'm a) wrong or b) formerly correct but practice changed 05:00 it's not an abbreviation I use very often 05:01 normally I'm talking to people by username 05:02 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:10 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 05:10 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 05:15 normally the rule with abbreviations is that you only put a "." at the end if the last letter is not used 05:16 nobody writes M'r though (and that'd look more like Master than Mister) 05:16 but US put a "." at the end of salutations like "Mr." because they want to for some reason 05:19 "...ise" and "...ize" are another interesting one (comes up in words like "organisation"/"organization" a lot in my work) 05:22 I don't think anyone is consistent with those, in either US or UK English 05:23 even the dictionaries are unsure sometimes, and just decide to come up with a rule and stick with it 05:23 Australia is strictly "ise", UK both are OK, and in US it is strictly "ize" 05:23 (well, there's probably someone who uses those consistently just to be perverse…) 05:24 Oxford (UK) provides both ize and ise as acceptable 05:24 Macquarie (Aust) is just "ise" 05:25 but with globalisation (hah, no "z") people in Australia are using "ize" and related more often 05:26 most people use US English here in Thailand, but UK english is quite common too 05:28 largely depends on what organisation you are working with - so I usually ask for a corporate style guide if available and follow that where unsure 05:41 -!- stennowork has joined #hardfought 05:47 ais523: what is removal storage? 05:48 FIQ: when you get interrupted in an A command, if you later get paralysed and something steals the item you were taking off 05:48 the game incorrectly assumes that you must have been in a T command at the time and ends the helplessness 05:48 (on the basis that the T command is now irrelevant) 05:48 ah 05:48 interesting 05:49 I assume NH4 fixed this in the helpless rewrite, but I didn't do it so I'm not sure 05:49 ais523: you can't summon other roles' quest nemeses afaik 05:49 FIQ: you can wish for and unstone statues 05:50 well, except for the Tourist 05:50 you get a doppelganger but it'll act as the nemesis for long enough to count 05:50 ais523: ah right 05:50 I wonder how doppelganger quest leaders behave 05:50 my quick review of the code implied that they act like a regular quest leader if they're on quest home 05:51 and otherwise do something else, probably just messages of encouragement 05:52 note that you can only summon your own quest nemesis/leader either way 05:52 the game pretends that others simply don't exist 05:52 if you try 05:52 (even in wizmode genesis, strangely -- which I didn't know until now) 05:53 IIRC there was some check that ties your real quest leader to its m_id, and one sporkhack player on esm has run into a bug where that somehow got changed in-game, leading to a bugged quest leader that would crash on being spoken to 05:54 that's bizarre 05:55 ais523: doesn't cancelling PYEC invocation give an artifact invocation timeout? 05:55 FIQ: you repeatedly apply it, then cancel it when the game asks for the target 05:55 it doesn't do much, but it /does/ blast you 05:56 so you can use it to deal arbitrary amounts of damage to yourself in zero time 05:57 but I thought aborting the charge prompt set the invocation timeout? 05:57 making it ignore you afterwards 05:57 (which costs time) 05:59 hmm, does it check that before asking for the target? 05:59 if so, it might be a problem 05:59 however, apparently someone claims that the staff of misspelling works too; would that have the same problem, I wonder? 05:59 just checked 06:00 cancelling is safe 06:00 staff of aesculapius :) 06:00 I thought I'd give it its common name :-) 06:01 ais523: does polymorph vapors cause polymorph? 06:02 if so you could polymorph by others zapping striking and destroying a potion of polymorph 06:02 FIQ: ooh, interesting 06:02 IIRC it doesn't but it's at least worth a test, potion vapours are not on my list of things that can happen out of turn 06:03 tried 06:03 and really should be, assuming that potions broken by monsters work the same way as potions broken by players 06:03 EPI: monsters throw potions of polymorph at you. 06:03 it doesn't do anything in fiqhack, and it's unchanged from 3.4.3 iirc 06:03 there shoud be a 'dehydrated' conduct for never drinking a potion/fountain or going swimming 06:03 will double check 06:03 ais523: as for vapors themselves, yes they work the same 06:04 whether caused by a monster or player 06:04 huh, gain ability vapors work as the potion itself? that's weird 06:04 ais523: that said, if you haven't anticipated this 06:04 there might be other tricks you could do 06:05 also, healing vapors heal your real HP as well as your monster form HP, that's probably wrong 06:05 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 06:05 huh 06:06 there is in fact code for polymorph thrown by monsters 06:06 gain level and levitation are the two I was most interested in, but neither has a vapor effect 06:06 even in vanilla 06:06 allthough it's unused 06:06 polymorph vapor just abuses constitution 06:06 unless landmines can also call potionhit? 06:06 (allthough this is not abuseable any more than polytraps are) 06:06 no, it's /way/ more abusable 06:06 landmines can be repositioned 06:07 oh true 06:07 hmm 06:07 I never looked into how object scattering works 06:07 let me see if I can pull something off 06:08 bleh, thitu seems to not have cases for potion vapor 06:09 and landmine effects call breakobj, anyway 06:10 so you get vapor effects, not thrown effects 06:10 yeah, unlike most of glass breaking, there's no 1% shot at resisting the break as glass when scattering 06:10 and yeah, potionhit is only in m_throw D: 06:12 oh wait there is 06:12 so yeah 06:12 potions can survive the destruction 06:12 as usual 06:12 with 1% chance 06:12 but it doesn't matter 06:12 because there's no potionhit in thitu 06:12 oh well 06:12 right, so it would just have the potion act like worthless glass would 06:12 do minimal damage and bounce off 06:13 which is admittely strange and should probably be fixed 06:13 (allthough that wont help the TAS :P) 06:14 the TAS has found lots of bugs already 06:14 but yes, I don't think there's a vapor effect that's useful here 06:15 zero turn confusion could be useful in some cases, although probably not for thisr un 06:16 oh, huh, triggering the lycanthrope transformation 06:16 that probably isn't useful either but it could get us out of a terrible polyform 06:17 even so, shifting into a speed 12 form doesn't seem that great 06:18 what is wrong with the hurtle thing? 06:19 and how exactly do you get an action count of 61 06:20 galloping hasted warhorse is speed 53, then carry a spare 9 from the previous turn 06:20 ah 06:20 and the problem with hurtling is that we can't cancel the helplessness without armour removal storage, and most polyforms we want to use can't wear armour 06:20 (jewellery does /not/ work) 06:20 (contrary to my previous beliefs) 06:20 ah 06:21 can you get the speed from gallop? 06:21 instead of self-polyform 06:22 you get the gallop speed only if your previous action was a farmove that's still ongoing and moved you at least one space 06:22 and that cancels helplessness too 06:22 so you need to move 2 squares for it to proc? 06:22 err 06:22 cancels storage too 06:22 you can move one square, have it proc, then collide with a wall in zero time 06:23 at the start of the next turn 06:23 you can also collide with monsters, no? 06:24 yep 06:24 I really need to sleep, anyway 06:24 night 06:24 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: bedtime] 06:54 jonadab: if I change the spellbook mechanics 06:54 to the proposal described earlier 06:55 does it make sense for roles to still have a copy of their predefined spells? 06:56 FIQ: Actually, no. But that's going to complicate u_init.c 06:56 jonadab: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-09-22 02:29 EDT: What, you made rock traps not occur on the first few dungeon levels??? Are you trying to throw the game? 06:56 jonadab: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-09-22 03:05 EDT: It actually makes me sad you still think I'd doing lame stuff like savescumming to ascend slex. The reason why I didn't ascend it on hdf is that my connection from Germany is laggy, unlike the one on esm. But it would certainly be doable for me if I were to put in the effort. 06:56 or should I keep giving them the books 06:56 but not add the spells? 06:57 so they have to (successfully!) read them first 06:57 So they don't get a free spell if they want to keep illiterate? 06:57 I guess 06:57 I don't consider this a problem 06:58 But yeah, starting characters for some of the character classes won't be able to read the books for many thousands of turns (until they do midgame alchemy for Int), unless they bless them. 06:58 only the wizard start with nonblessed books I think? 06:58 Oh, if the books start blessed, then that's fine. 06:59 in fiqhack, wizards start with force bolt and magic missile blessed 06:59 other books uncursed 06:59 apparently other roles does *not* start with their books blessed except for healers 06:59 I can change this easy 07:01 It's less important for Priest than for other roles; but giving them an uncursed book they have to bless if they want the spell _is_ a small nerf. 07:01 this only applies to priests 07:01 Small, though; they start with _several_ holy water and only need to reserve one for making more. 07:01 just checked 07:01 Monks get a book. 07:01 everyone else start with their book(s) blessed 07:01 Ah. 07:01 Ok. 07:01 And right, priests have holy water. 07:01 except wizard as mentioned 07:01 I blessed the priest book 07:01 saw no reason for the nerf 07:02 Wizards don't have to tediously calculate the formula, because they get the warning. 07:02 lol 07:02 I'm tempted, on the interhack principle, to do that for everyone if the book's been pricechecked; but then I'd have to track whether items are pricechecked. 07:02 I thought I screwed up 07:02 because I got 4 blessed books as a wizard 07:02 nope, just RNG 07:03 Right, any inventory item that doesn't have its BUC specified _can_ end up blessed. 07:03 yeah 07:03 UNDEF_BLESS 07:03 weapons and armor are guaranteed to be non-curse 07:03 means "uncursed or blessed" 07:03 0 means always uncursed 07:03 (on starting equipment) 07:03 1 always blessed 07:04 -1 always cursed (nobody gets this) 07:04 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 07:04 pushed update 07:05 hmm i really should read into character creation at some point, its one of the few source code parts that i haven't read yet 07:05 u_init 07:06 ah thanks 07:06 i guess its pretty straightforward though 07:07 yes 07:10 jonadab: I think the one major side effect of this change 07:10 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:10 is that the confuse self spell is only available from T:60001+ 07:11 theoretically 07:15 FIQ: Yeah, but you don't need it until Astral. 07:15 Err, until the Planes. 07:15 The other planes, not Astral. 07:16 But still. 07:16 And there are actually plenty of other source of confusion, they just use (minor) resources. 07:17 right 07:18 FIQhack updated 07:18 K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-22 04:15 EDT: pushed fh update 07:19 jonadab: also this 07:19 Since spellbooks now lack charges, this means you can polypile books indefinitely and relearn/learn spells from them. However, the book will disappear when you successfully (re)learn a spell, as usual. 07:21 You can poly _unwanted_ books indefinitely, yes; but you have to ID them. 07:21 I think that's a fair trade. 07:22 You'll have to keep an eye on spellbook availability. With FIQHack's existing changes, that might be ok. 07:22 [nh] nozx (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 498 points, T:746, killed by a system shock 07:22 If I do it in Fourk, before rebase, I'll have to definitely look at that. 07:22 jonadab: are you interested in making stun breath tiles? :3 07:22 I might consider it. 07:23 What tilesets do you need them for? 07:23 I think this is the only tile missing from tilesets that don't exist elsewhere 07:23 I would at most only do it for tilesets that Fourk supports. 07:23 all of the ones fiqhack has 07:23 which I think are the ones 4k has too 07:23 Which is? 07:23 unless you removed some? 07:23 or added some? 07:23 I didn't remove any. I added Geoduck. 07:23 let me create an aimake build quick 07:24 I don't get tiles warnings with the makefile 07:24 If you didn't add any tilesets, it's just the NH4 ones, which Fourk already supports. 07:24 Which dragon has stun breath? 07:24 shimmering 07:24 Ah. 07:24 um 07:24 I can't compile fiqhack with aimake 07:24 I have wanted for some time to make white and silver dragons have different breath; so having one more set of breath tiles would be a good thing. 07:24 FIQ: At all, anymore? 07:25 Might want to git bisect. 07:25 "Please use an empty directory for starting new builds" ??? You have to remove everything in a directory each time? 07:25 (This wasn't the error, I was re-running the process into an aimake.log) 07:25 Oh, the build directory is not allowed to create anything aimake didn't put there. 07:25 But... 07:25 It was empty 07:25 If you direct output to a logfile, it has to be outside the build dir. 07:26 [631][fiq@fiq-desktop ~/fiqhack/build]$ ../aimake -i ~/fiqhack_compiled 2>&1 >~/aimake.log 07:26 That should work. 07:26 I think. 07:26 If I read it right. 07:26 my attempt at output redirection doesn't work, need to refresh my memory on the format 07:26 but that wasn't the point of that paste 07:27 ~/fiqhack/build is the only one that needs to be empty. (And only _empty_ for a clean build; otherwise it can contain detritus from previous aimake run, as long as it's aimake-created detritus.) 07:27 Try 2>&1 | tee ~/aimake.log 07:27 I just did 2>~/aimake.log 07:27 it works 07:27 Ah, ok. 07:28 Maybe you can only have one > 07:28 Though that makes no sense, because 2> is really a different thing. 07:28 http://home.fiq.se/aimake.log 07:28 this is the actual error 07:28 and yeah 07:29 if I disregard input redirection shenanigans completely 07:29 aimake still whines about non-empty source directory 07:29 er, build 07:29 so that was, as epxected, unrelated 07:29 *expected 07:29 Huh. 07:30 I think you need ais for this. 07:30 isn't aimake great 07:31 this is the kind of thing that makes me not use aimake :P 07:31 It's amazing when it works. 07:31 If a few more projects used it and it had a couple more programmers working on it, I think it could become the best build system ever. 07:31 But yes, the low bus factor is a problem. 07:32 And it's pretty beta. 07:32 Which also doesn't help. 07:32 you are rather optimistic 07:32 !tell ais523 I attempted to run fiqhack under aimake to figure out what tiles was missing. This happened: http://home.fiq.se/aimake.log 07:32 Will do, FIQ! 07:33 Wait, your makefile build system can't tell you about missing tiles? 07:33 it doesn't build SDL 07:34 Ah. 07:34 and I don't want to think about the complexities of adding that right now 07:37 [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) killed Croesus, on T:30055 07:38 haha killed Croesus with a boomerang 07:38 he thought he could run and hide but didn't count on my banana-bender 07:39 !tell ais523 I seem to have fixed it. Apparently aimake doesn't like .o or .d files nd similar around the source 07:39 Will do, FIQ! 07:41 Grasshopper lol 07:43 [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) genocided mind flayer, on T:30124 07:44 jonadab: http://sprunge.us/UUYb 07:47 here are the tiles missing in fiqhack 07:47 I think some of them, 4k already has 07:47 and can be ported straight 07:47 stun breath is the obvious exception 07:47 not sure how to deal with object piles, I will ask ais once he is back 07:51 FIQ: remembered as object pile will be needed. 07:54 Yes, I will have to figure out how to deal with that 07:54 Easiest way would probably be a mini icon similar to the heart for pets 07:54 I have amber potion in bleeding-edge. Don't have those _specific_ spellbooks (canvas, hardcover, ochre), but I do have dark, black, wide, long, spotted, striped, spiral-bound, tattered, torn, calligraphed, scrawled, hand-printed, woodcut, embossed, illuminated, paperback, stapled, pocket, pale, and maroon books. 07:54 And yes, an overlay icon is what's wanted for object piles. 07:54 jonadab: I only selected them because SLASH'EM had them. I can change it 07:55 Ah, I didn't take all the ones from Slash'EM, only some of them. 07:55 And the zap 8 set, obviously. 07:55 Yeah zap 8 set is the only one I think that doesn't exist anywhere and can't be replaced with something else 07:55 So yeah, FIQHack tiles is very doable. 07:55 and object piles, but that should be much simpler to add 07:56 Honestly, zap 8 set is probably going to be just a palette swap in _most_ tilesets (all the rays are just palette swaps of each other), though I think there's one exception. 07:56 RL-Tiles might be the exception, not certain. 07:57 I'll look at some point. 07:57 in ascii, stun rays are brown 07:57 mostly because it was an unused color 07:57 there was no real logic behind the consideration 07:57 maybe I should change to cyan, nothing uses that 07:57 arguably cyan should be cold, though 07:57 The tilesets don't all match each other on ray colors. 07:58 And yeah, I think I actually like brown for stun. 07:58 Conceptually. 07:58 Though brown could also be used for mud/dig. 07:58 mhm 07:58 Which, there's a muddy explosion in the tilesets, though I'm not sure if it's used for anything. 07:58 it isn't 07:59 one obvious use case is explosive digging 07:59 but currently it doesn't 08:00 jonadab: should cold be changed to cyan in ascii? 08:00 to be unambiguous with lightning 08:00 Oh, I found something that can't handle 24-bit terminal color codes: less 08:00 less can handle colors? 08:01 my less has colors but it's a python wrapper 08:01 FIQ: cyan, or even bright cyan, as cold makes sense to me. 08:01 FIQ: Not sure. 08:01 But it echoes them. 08:01 The codes, I mean. 08:01 ok 08:01 I see 08:01 but it does that with colors in general 08:01 try ls --color=always * | less 08:02 Dawnlike zap 1 is white/yellow/fleshtone/orange/red, like fire 08:02 Dawnlike zap2 is white/cyan/gray/blue, obviously cold. 08:02 the order is 08:03 Dawnlike zap3 is cyan/blue/gray but with white letter z on it in places. Same colors as zap 2 but more of a sinewave shape. 08:04 Dawnlike zap 5 is white and cyan but appears to be lightning, it's branchy. 08:04 magic missiles, fire, frost, sleep, death, lightning, poison gas, acid, stun 08:04 Dawnlike zap 4 is black/darkblue/blue/gray, not sure what that represents. 08:04 for 0-8 08:05 death or disintegration 08:05 Ah. Makes sense. It is kinda dark. 08:05 see my list 08:05 it's the order of zap types 08:05 starting from 0 08:06 Dawnlike zap 0 is, hmm, white/fleshtone/cyan/blue/gray; but the white/fleshtone part only occurs in the flare. 08:06 Dawnlike zap 6, poison, is green/brown with purple dots around it. 08:06 Looks sickening. 08:07 is dawnlike the tileset where the author put a large effort into making each statue special? 08:07 or was that RLTiles 08:07 Dawnlike zap 7, acid, is green/yellow mainly, with bits of white and brown. (The brown in both 6 and 7 is a dark desaturated yellow, not orange like the chocolate brown. I not G.) 08:07 FIQ: That's RL-Tiles, which is 32-bit color. 08:08 ok 08:08 Dawnlike is the one that's palette based but has a much nicer palette than slashem-16. 08:08 ahh 08:10 Actually, you know what? http://jonadab.jumpingcrab.com/pastebin/857.txt 08:10 what is that? 08:11 ^ open up any terminal that supports 24-bit color codes (e.g., Konsole), cd to the tilesets directory in FIQHack, and you can do commands like this: perl /wherever/857.txt tileset "dawnlike-16" show "zap 3" 08:12 It also has a rudimentary edit mode. 08:12 It's great for the palette-based tilesets. 08:12 do you have to mess with $TERM for it? 08:12 Much easier than running the game and wizmode-generating the objects/monsters you want to see. 08:12 It ignores $TERM 08:12 like with 256color 08:12 ah 08:13 If your terminal doesn't support the 24-bit color codes, things will just look weird. 08:13 You'll be able to tell by looking at the palette. 08:13 from tilesets/dat/tiles ? 08:13 Just from tilesets 08:13 ok 08:14 It has to find the catalogs and things, in addition to the actual tiles. 08:15 not sure if I have 256color or 24bit color 08:15 but either way it looks decent enough 08:17 home.fiq.se/zap1.png 08:17 is this 24bit or 256color? 08:20 It must be 24-bit, because tiletool doesn't attempt 8-bit approximations. 08:20 I have code that DOES do that, but it's not in tiletool. 08:20 ahh 08:20 ok 08:20 cool 08:21 Didn't seem important, because nobody's going to use tiletool to play the game or anything, it's just a developer tool. 08:22 well yeah 08:22 but it might be a terminal thing 08:22 had no idea 08:22 if you used, say, curses 08:22 Oh, it's conceivable that there are terminals that do 8-bit color approximations of 24-bit color codes; though I don't know why they would, when all monitors can display 24-bit color. 08:23 No, it's nothing as complicated as curses. 08:23 If you look at the last half dozen lines in the source, you can see the function that generates the terminal codes for each color. 08:23 It's dead simple. 08:24 zap 6 only shows green and gray for me 08:24 no brown or purple 08:25 Oh, you're kind of right. 08:25 http://home.fiq.se/zap6.png 08:25 It's not brown as in G, but brown as in I, which is a gray brown. 08:25 And it's not purple as in C, it's F, which is also rather gray. 08:26 Oh, wait. 08:26 THAT is not what it looks like here. 08:26 Ona momento. 08:26 so it is doing 256 approximation after all? :) 08:26 jonadab: also see the pallet 08:27 Yeah, something may be doing 8-bit approximation. 08:27 Here is what I see: http://jonadab.jumpingcrab.com/pastebin/858.png 08:27 let me try outside tmux 08:27 Oh, hmm, I wonder if tmux does 8-bit approximations of 24-bit colors. Not impossible. 08:27 tmux is to blame 08:27 Ok. 08:28 That makes sense. 08:28 It wasn't nearly as noticeable with the red/orange zap. 08:28 But I can clearly see it there too now that I'm looking for it. 08:29 So anyway, for a Dawnlike stun ray, hmm. Maybe something in C/G/I/M/P ? 08:29 Or would that be too ugly? 08:30 ok 08:30 I fixed 24bit color stuff 08:30 now it looks better 08:30 anyway 08:31 jonadab: I can't help but notice that you essentially spelled out gimp :P 08:31 with that said 08:31 Oh, that was not deliberate. 08:33 you mean something like AAAACGIMIGCAAAAA ? 08:33 not sure if I understand exactly 08:33 Una momento. 08:33 does these colors mesh well I wonder 08:34 Thinking of replacing G with K. 08:36 Hmm. First draft, this is just a palette swap of the cold beam, I'd probably want to change the shape a bit, but what do you think about these colors? http://jonadab.jumpingcrab.com/pastebin/859.png 08:37 Should P and I be swapped? 08:38 not sure if the inner color works 08:38 looks ok otherwise 08:38 yeah, that might do it 08:40 jonadab: How do I know the tile numbers of something? 08:40 Do they even matter? 08:41 I don't _think_ the numbers matter. 08:41 I've been just giving new tiles previously unused numbers. 08:41 But I think the numbers specified in the source are discarded by tilecompile 08:42 Next draft: http://jonadab.jumpingcrab.com/pastebin/860.png 08:42 [gh] k2 (Mon Elf Mal Neu), 147 points, T:234, killed by an arrow 08:42 rock trap. next 2 steps arrow trap lol 08:43 I gave dawnlike zap8 placeholder tiles existing numbers, mostly by accident since I didn't notice them at first 08:43 it seems to have compiled regardless 08:43 jonadab: one sec 08:43 (compiled without the "missing zap" warning too) 08:45 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:52 jonadab: yeah that works I think 08:52 Alright, something like that for DawnHack then. 08:53 Err, DawnLike 08:53 Whatever it is. 08:55 [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) had Vorpal Blade bestowed upon him by Hermes, on T:31192 10:00 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:3201 10:02 dtype 10:02 countdown timer for dgl :P 10:02 i haz teh requests 10:03 K2: It's easy, all you do is, you write countdown timer code in C, and then you make dgamelaunch _call that code_. EZ. HTH.HAND. 10:03 * K2 doesnt know how to write in C 10:04 Ah. 10:05 it could be the first bit for dtype's tournament version of dgl 10:05 heh 10:16 K2: add some money to the pot, maybe it will entice dtype :P 10:16 (jk) 10:18 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 10:21 actaully that's not a bad suggestion at all 10:22 i've paid code authors for added functionality in the past for work projects i've done 10:22 dtype: do you want cash or can we just cut out the extra step, i'll send the midget hookers to wherever 10:23 Is just some mediocre C. github repo is available. ;) 10:26 :) 10:27 this one right? https://github.com/paxed/dgamelaunch 10:27 I looked a bit at that code yesterday 10:28 to figure out what the deal with term size behaviour is 10:34 [nd] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 2711 points, T:5036, killed by a soldier ant 10:36 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 10:52 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:57 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 10:58 [dnh] rikerw (Kni Clk Mal Law), 40243 points, T:8345, killed by a blast of fire 10:58 > 4+ wards: y, D, N, Undead, metroids 10:58 rikersan: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-09-22 04:12 EDT: ah, it seems you despise dnethack's elder priest as much as I do! That thing is just terrible. It's so unbalanced and unfair that I'd really like to sever its goddamn tentacles and crush them to a bloody pulp. 10:58 yep absolutely wards off ixoth 10:59 !tell LarienTelrunya: well uh I don't hate him that much, but yeah I think it's kinda stupid. Particulary after fighting through asmodeus's entourage, I don't really think the elder priest is needed 10:59 Will do, rikersan! 11:19 what exactly does dnh beast mastery do? 12:31 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 12:49 [slex] rikerw (Mon Mou Mal Cha), 15179 points, T:2410, killed by a monster (Undead Kaptain), while praying unsuccessfully 13:01 [slex] rikerw (Zyb Ang Mal Cha), 2757 points, T:1036, killed by a monster (small locust) 13:05 hold up, what's this /dev/null/tribute challenge thing 13:05 and why did I get a message about things not rolling 13:06 rikersan... it's in testing right now, it's basically the old devnull tournament code ported to 360 13:06 the rolling thing means you must have accepted a challenge (that's a thing with devnull) 13:06 what was that? 13:06 I did accept one 13:06 hwo do those work? 13:07 Depends which one it is. 13:07 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki//dev/null/nethack_tournament 13:07 are they all in effect, excepting kingdom of loathing? 13:07 there are spoilers on that link 13:07 aosdict: yes 13:07 If you accept the zamp challenge, for instance, then you have to beat zapm before you can wish for anything in NetHack. 13:07 ah, then the grue challenge should be fun 13:07 "fun" 13:08 depends on your definition of fun... :D 13:08 jondab: methinks a wishless ascension is coming up 13:08 you can decline the challenges if you want 13:08 they are optional 13:09 I don't suppose Beholder is announcing deaths from this yet? 13:09 nope 13:09 I just died, no msg 13:13 sigh 13:13 both speed boots and a smoky potion on floor 1 13:13 but the potion gave no wish 13:13 that's not really something to be disappointed about 13:13 you still have speed boots 13:14 yes! 13:14 the alternative is a normal level 1, with no speed boots and no smoky potions :P 13:14 rikersan: Smoky potions only _occasionally_ give a wish; usually they don't. 13:14 the chances of getting a wish from a smoky are so small that it's a surprise when it works, not when it doesn't 13:15 especially don't be disappointed if you didn't know the potion was blessed 13:15 because the chance of getting a wish off a non-blessed smoky potion is miniscule 13:15 it was blessed 13:15 altar checked off crossaligned one 13:16 anyway I'm dead to a dwarf 13:16 you find speed boots and an altar on level 1, and still you complain? ;) 13:16 yep 13:16 hehe 13:16 obviously 13:20 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20 YASI: new challenge, the Identity Theft challenge. Triggers when you try to read a scroll of identify or cast the spell. If you accept the challenge, you cannot read or cast identify until complete. To complete, you must cause every OTHER kind of scroll in the game to be formally identified. 13:21 Except for Identify. 13:21 Main way to do this is by reading them, though monster use also counts. 13:21 ugh. forced use testing 13:21 do the challenges carry between lives? 13:21 looks like it, but not usre 13:22 yes 13:22 once you accept one it's active until you complete it 13:22 cool 13:32 does the grue thing apply to pets? 13:37 you mean, will the pet get eaten by a grue if it goes into the dark? Pretty sure not 13:39 EPI: ^ 13:39 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:39 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:41 lol, minetown has 4 lamps, 1 magic 13:41 if I could wish that would be great 13:42 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:42 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 13:42 -!- rikersan has quit [Client Quit] 14:05 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:7181 14:08 dev/null 3.6.0 updated 14:08 now includes dumplogs 14:08 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 22684 points, T:7351, killed by an ogre lord 14:08 nooooo elenmirie :( 14:09 yet another conduct monk bites the dust... 14:09 an ogre lord that just wouldn't go to sleep 14:10 hate it when that happens 14:10 with me its usually a mumak or leocotta 14:10 or those nasty little elvses 14:11 well, soko was a bag and I already had a bag, so that was a bit of a problem 14:21 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 14:22 -!- stennowork has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:26 [slex] rikerw (Poi Aqu Mal Neu), 16 points, T:125, killed by a cursed throne 14:33 Hmm, I need to figure out which of these ZAPM objects are worth keeping, so I can drop the rest. 14:34 Let's start with dropping all the stormtrooper suits, I bet those are heavy. 14:35 Probably don't need the pistols, since I have an assault rifle. 14:35 Of phase, blaster, laser rifle, which is best? 14:35 *phaser 14:36 i think there's a ZAPM page on the wiki, it might help 14:36 I'm gonna guess the laser rifle is better because I only have one of it. 14:36 it runs out of charges fast tho iirc 14:36 I had like 3, each only had maybe 10 shots 14:36 is FIQ our ZAPM guru? 14:37 Should I keep the debugged +1 mop, now that I have an energy sword? Will the energy sword run out of energy? 14:38 > A light sabre (energy sword) also grants reflection when wielded which is slightly better than the suit, as it also deflects energy weapons. 14:38 ... keep the sword 14:38 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 14:40 ooh, ZAPM! 14:40 lol elenmirie! 14:40 it's been up for a few days now 14:40 Also, should I use my restraining bolt now, or hang onto it? There's a dogbot here. 14:42 Astromech droid, hmm. 14:43 Should I be doing anything with these bionic implants? 14:43 they're like rings iirc 14:43 Ah. 14:44 here's a super-secret page I started working on (but never finished) that might help https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/ZAPM_Item_Prices 14:44 it's not linked to anything 14:44 and the first line is now a lie :) 14:44 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:45 Hmm, can't afford the tricorder. 14:46 Oh, does this mean if I have a brain cyllinder, that's an identified and good item? 14:47 yes 14:48 oh, I'd forgotten about all the abortifacients 14:48 Should I go ahead and quaff it? 14:48 I don't remember there being a downside 14:50 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 14:52 at some point we'll have to compile ZAPM with testmode off, so we can make sure it actually works with the wish challenge in the 3.6.0 port 14:52 or 14:52 have two zapm copies side by side heh 14:52 one testmode on, one off 14:53 I tested that it worked with the challenge while Tangles was running it way back when... 14:53 Dunno how different this installation is 14:54 dgamelaunch handles which challenges the player chooses and completes 14:54 that bit is new 14:55 so with testmode off in zapm 14:55 you play 3.6.0 port, make a wish, accept the zapm challenge 14:55 Hmm, looks like the borg will not approach me, when I am hiding just around a corner and have an energy sword to his phaser. 14:55 dgl writes a file with your name on it regarding that challenge 14:55 when you fire up zapm, it would look for that file 14:55 oh, I see, it needs retesting 14:55 if it doesnt exist, it shouldnt let you play 14:56 Also, dgl should not show the menu entry in that case. 14:56 if challenge file does exist, zapm lets you play and if you win, dgl should write another file showing you won challenge 14:56 the old way it just put you into zapm as soon as you took the challenge 14:56 so 3.6.0 unlocks wishing 14:56 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:56 elenmirie: oh it did 14:57 did not know that (i never made it that far in /dev/null) 14:57 i think you have to choose it separately with how we're doing it now 14:58 jonadab: i put a disclaimer in the submenu i made about not being able to play zapm until you unlocked the challenge first 14:58 in anticipation 14:58 and then I think when you fired up the game again, it gave you a choice of continuing your nethack game or playing ZAPM (just in case you didn't ascend the first time) 14:58 we'll need to ask Tangles about this bit 14:58 I never played ZAPM in real devnull, just Tangles' port 14:59 same 14:59 but that's how it behaved when he was running it on his "server" back in December/January whenever that was 14:59 hmm 15:00 that would be cool if it did 15:00 just an fyi, after the toutney i'll still keep ZAPM up (in testmode) as an easter egg 15:00 *tourney 15:00 cool 15:00 it's a fun game, albeit not really finished 15:00 maybe add PRIME too 15:00 different enough from nethack to be interesting 15:01 is that earlier than ZAPM? 15:01 its supposedly zapm v2 15:01 still be devloped actually 15:01 being 15:02 ah 15:05 it's a zapm variant 15:05 not a sequel 15:05 but yeah 15:05 FIQ: Is this like brogue where if I have duplicate canisters I should quaff-test one? 15:06 What about if I have three of a particular floppy? 15:21 -!- Menche_ has joined #hardfought 15:22 -!- Menche has quit [Killed (karatkievich.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 15:22 -!- Menche_ is now known as Menche 15:31 jonadab: I use-test floppies generally as long as they aren't buggy 15:31 like 80% of canisters are dangerous to drink 15:31 So they are generally the first thing I ID with the id floppy 15:32 -!- stenno has joined #hardfought 15:32 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 15:33 How do I find out if a floppy is buggy? 15:33 Also, is a bat'leth worth keeping if I have an energy sword? 15:33 what do energy cells do? 15:33 use it i think 15:33 or id it 15:33 rikersan: I think they are ammo for the laser weapon. 15:34 ah 15:34 jonadab: if you aren't a software engineer, just try it I guess 15:34 Also, why am I still carrying the debugged +1 mop? 15:34 FIQ: I'm a janitor. 15:34 buggy floppies are usually safe 15:34 ensure you don't carry any buckazoids though 15:35 in case you get a buggy floppy of spam 15:35 How do I drop buckazoids? 15:35 d? and figure out what letter money got 15:35 dev/null 3.6.0 updated 15:35 Ah, I see. 15:35 Right. 15:35 I was trying to d$ 15:35 Oh, got ID on first try. What do I identify first? 15:36 wow oyu have +5 reflex coordinator 15:36 good stuff 15:36 anyway 15:36 I personally like to start by IDing canisters, but I generally play software engineers 15:36 who already know BUC of weapons/armor 15:36 hmmm 15:36 Two of my three implants identified when I implanted, so I kept them. Dropped the smelly one that didn't. 15:37 there are only 2 negative implants in ZAPM 15:37 and both are very obvious 15:37 Oh, should I go back for the smelly implant, then, at some point? 15:37 I can. 15:37 there is never a reason to not keep wearing it unless you realize it is narcolepsy 15:37 I see. 15:37 Useful to know. 15:37 cortex coprocessor auto-ID and is the other negative one 15:37 what's that do? 15:37 (well, "negative", it's just UI annoyance) 15:38 rikersan: cortex coprocessors swap direction commands 15:38 Do I want to ID any of my armor? 15:38 left is right, up is down, < is >; etc 15:38 The yellow jumpsuit? 15:38 zapm :') 15:38 jonadab: I'd personally ID the jumpsuit I think, maybe 15:38 ...Yes, that's why 15:39 Debugged +0 radiation suit. 15:39 Is that a suit that causes radiation, or protects against it? 15:39 That is the best suit (basically shirt) in the game 15:39 protects 15:39 protects 15:39 time to split some wood. bbl 15:39 Ah, ok. 15:39 Note that quaffing from vats is still unsafe 15:40 managing radiation exposure is one of the most important things in ZAPM 15:40 But background radiation from gamma caves, radiation traps, etc, is much easier with radiation suit 15:40 Ok. 15:40 it basically eliminates it unless you are exposed to very excessive radiation levels 15:40 (and if you are, you're probably doing something wrong anyway) 15:40 Do I want to ID anything else right now? Or use-test ZARRO BOOGS? 15:41 Oh, I should use-test the green ray gun. 15:41 transporter is teleport 15:41 in case you didn't know 15:41 What is a gauss ray gun? 15:41 it inflicts magnetic damage, I'm not quite sure what this does 15:41 I see. 15:41 anal probes are useless weapons btw 15:42 Figured they were pretty low-level, since I saw them early. 15:42 super glue is completely useless to my knowledge, you can quaff it to get your toungue stuck in one, making you unable to talk and do some other stuff 15:42 Are the assault pistols worth keeping, when I have an assault rifle? 15:42 (it wears off eventually, but yeah) 15:43 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:43 they're in 2 different weapon classes 15:43 Oh. 15:44 Also, what should I advance at this point? 15:44 I've been advancing some stuff as I went, but I haven't kept upt. 15:44 personally I like to enhance spot to find treasure closets 15:44 or whatever you want to call them 15:45 I've enhanced that several times. 15:45 Should I keep enhancing it until I can't any more? 15:45 other than that the adventure skills seem mostly useles to you 15:45 *useless 15:45 as for weapon skills.. depends on what ou use 15:45 *you use 15:45 I enhanced search at least once, maybe twice. 15:45 Currently, I use the energy sword mostly, and the laser rifle or assault rifle when needed.' 15:46 ah 15:46 well 15:46 your Agi is 20 15:46 Can't advance Programming, for whatever reason. Maybe because Janitor. 15:46 and you can enhance melee a lot 15:46 maybe that is useful 15:46 not sure what melee weapons exist, haven't looked closely 15:47 Does basic melee apply to the sword though? Or only if I use the mop again? 15:47 I also have access to a bat'leth, but I assume that qualifies as a sword. 15:48 bat'leth is right here in fact. 15:48 a bat'leth does 2d6 if I read this correctly 15:48 [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) had Trollsbane bestowed upon him by Hermes, on T:31855 15:48 an energy sword is a lightsaber though 15:48 which is even better and gives reflection 15:49 I take this as a sign that Hermes wants to get rid of me 15:49 Right, it's been deflecting a lot of enemy fire for me. 15:49 Which has been helpful. 15:49 I found it in a closet, IIRC. 15:49 can you press E 15:49 what was the melee skills called 15:49 ah 15:49 ok 15:49 so bat'leth sis considered a melee weapon 15:49 while the lightsaber is a swrod 15:49 Oh, it's not a sword? 15:49 *sword 15:49 nop 15:49 e 15:49 Oh, interesting. 15:49 new shWeaponIlk ("light saber", "energy sword", "energy sword", 15:49 kRed, kSword, NULL, kTitanium, 15:49 vs 15:50 new shWeaponIlk ("bat'leth", "bat'leth", "bat'leth", 15:50 kGray, kMeleeWeapon, NULL, kSteel, 15:50 I see. 15:50 Oh, right, we have source for this game. 15:50 I knew that. 15:50 yes 15:51 I code dived a lot for my first devnull 2015 win 15:51 now there is better resources, but I still consult the source generally 15:51 to figure stuff out 15:51 Interesting. 15:51 since wiki info/etc is very incomplete 15:51 You might be the resident zapm expert here then. 15:51 doubt it 15:51 I only played it once before the last few days 15:52 and I only play software engineer because it's the role I'm most comfortable with :P 15:52 if you play something else I'll be super lost 15:52 Empty closet. What a gyp. 15:52 I'm playing janitor. 15:52 right 15:52 are empty closets comparatively rare to non-empty closets? 15:52 I tried software engineer once; it did not go well. 15:52 aosdict: Nah, just more disappointing. 15:52 aosdict: ZAPM spawns a lot of closets 15:53 which is very consistently hidden 15:53 Should I put a restraining bolt on this astromech droid? 15:53 and a lot of them (but not all) have loot 15:53 [4k] Zappi (philbo) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 12750 points, T:5780, killed by a gold golem 15:53 I've got two restraining bolts, one known debugged. 15:53 there is better but I guess it is ok 15:53 I mean, I don't _need_ a pet right now. 15:54 If there are significantly better options, I can just wait. 15:54 scrubbot is best earlygame pet I think, at least according to nethackwiki's monster table 15:54 There was a protocol droid earlier. 15:54 I haven't really looked closely at the source one since the nethackwiki one is much easier to browse 15:54 And catbots and dogbots, I assume those are not useful past earlygame. 15:54 protocol droids can translate robot talk for you 15:54 this is mostly useful to figure out docbot services 15:54 serves little purpose otherwise 15:55 it is however worse combatwise than astromech bots 15:55 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 15:56 Do I need docbot services? 15:56 There was a docbot a couple of levels up. 15:56 one thing I like to do 15:56 On the level with all the clerkbots. 15:56 yes, 2 levels 15:56 robot town 15:56 it is the place where docbot resides 15:56 anyway, one thing I like to do 15:56 once I find the docbot 15:56 Do I want either of these chainsaws? I'm thinking no. 15:56 is to walk around the dungeon and quaff from vats 15:56 to hope for mutant powers (spells) 15:57 some of them are amazing 15:57 Oh? There are a lot of vats. I was thinking they were dangerous. 15:57 the reason I wait for docbot 15:57 is because it has a rather large chance at inducing radiation issues 15:57 Which the docbot can cure? 15:57 How much does he charge? 15:57 and docbot has a rad-away service (purification if you have the translated ones) 15:57 yes 15:57 I don't have that many buckazoids, compared to my other game. 15:57 $200 per use 15:57 Oh, ok. 15:58 Not crazy then. 15:58 but he will not cure everything in one go 15:58 you might have to do it more than once 15:58 jonadab: you should perhaps use the ID floppies on canisters 15:58 you probably want to know the more useful ones 15:58 (and you don't want to carry around mutagen) 15:58 "Ick! That had a toxic taste!" <-- am I in _immediate_ danger? 15:59 that is the radiation danger vats have 15:59 How long is the timer? 15:59 let me see how much it gives 15:59 2d100 radiation 15:59 that is... bad, yes 16:00 Potentially. That is a lot of deviation. 16:00 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 16:00 jonadab: this is how radiation sickness works 16:00 if your radiation intake is over 100 16:00 you attain radiation sickness 16:00 which slowly saps constitution 16:00 if it would put it at 0 or less, you die 16:01 it will slowly dissipate over time 16:01 much faster if you have a radiation processor (implant) 16:01 Is there a way to verify whether I have radiation sickness? 16:01 and due to how *rare* restoration (restore ability) is to acquire 16:02 you want to cure it ASAP, even if you know you can cure it before you die 16:02 yes, use diagnostics 16:02 it's enlightenment 16:02 that is also a service docbot provides 16:02 and also exist as a floppy 16:02 Ah. So I should go to docbot now. 16:02 yes 16:02 but if you lack translation means 16:02 it can be a bit tricky to know what is what 16:03 as you see 16:03 I do see. 16:03 Should've put a restraining bolt on the protocol droid before doing this. Too late now. 16:04 one of these services will probe you, lowering your speed 16:04 yeah, got that one first. 16:04 I think bottom is purification 16:04 not 100% sure but I Think order is consistet 16:04 If I feel purified, is that what I needed? 16:04 That was the third one. 16:04 yes 16:04 purified means you got completely cured 16:04 The second one appeared to be normal healing. 16:05 less contaminated just means it wasn't completely cured 16:06 Will any given vat always do the same thing? 16:06 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:06 Or is it random per quaff? 16:06 no 16:06 it's random 16:06 like fountains 16:06 Ok. 16:06 worst effect besides radiation is probably falling into it, potentially corroding things 16:06 I think this also gives radiation, but not if you have a suiit 16:07 *suit 16:07 not 100% 16:07 Well, I have a mutant power now. 16:07 what did you get 16:07 Hypnosis. 16:07 ah 16:07 I guess that is ok 16:07 kind of meh 16:07 yeah. 16:07 Not sure it was worth it. 16:07 well 16:08 considering the amount of $ that generates in the dungeon 16:08 I generally just end up quaffing everything in the end 16:08 and cure radiation with docbot if it happens 16:08 Wait, this level has two down stairs. 16:08 there are some crazy skills 16:08 Ah, well, right now my $ are kinda low. 16:08 haste gives +25 speed 16:08 So I will leave off that for the time being. 16:08 restoration is reusable restore ability 16:09 Oh, this level is gamma caves. 16:09 no 16:09 oh 16:09 this is 16:09 I thought you were at robot town still 16:09 No, I went down. 16:09 which also has 2 > 16:09 the sewer is generally safer 16:09 Do I want to be in gamma caves right now, or go to the other >? 16:09 gamma caves is basically the Gehennom of zapm 16:10 The sewer, was that the one reached from the robot town? It seemed poisonous. 16:10 it is the last place you go to before you approach endgame 16:10 put on a stormtrooper helm 16:10 or space helmet if you have one 16:10 they protect against it 16:10 stormtrooper helm will also lower accuracy 16:10 So go back up to robot town, take the east down stair, use stormtrooper helm? 16:10 yes 16:11 allthough maybe clear the rest of space base first 16:11 find more money so you can potentially acquire more mutant skills 16:11 "It's hard to see out of this helmet." How bad is this? 16:11 not sure on the exact penalty 16:11 The rest of space base, is that the other down stair from the bottom? 16:11 but your agi and dex is huge 16:11 should be fine 16:11 space base go to 12 16:12 I don't want to step in a pool of sewage, do I? 16:12 it is safe 16:12 * jonadab is dubious. 16:12 well 16:12 it can have cockroaches 16:12 otherwise it is safe 16:12 Eh, I can kill cockroaches. 16:12 jonadab: meh, I noticed no harmful effects from it whatsoever :P 16:12 possibly radiation, but I mean 16:12 you have a suit 16:12 hm no it doesn't give radiation 16:13 if it did, my geiger counter whould have wined 16:13 *whined 16:13 *would 16:14 jonadab: sewers have poisonous enemies 16:14 those are probably the most dangerous longterm inhabitant 16:14 put on your helmet also :P 16:15 Oh, how did that get off? 16:15 migo 16:15 migo removes armor, noted. 16:15 migos remove stormtrooper helmets 16:15 then your implants 16:15 then incise in your head 16:15 and then steal your brain 16:15 That sounds bad. 16:15 doesn't sound good 16:16 yeah they can instakill 16:16 but they need to get rid of your stuff first 16:16 I should maybe use ranged weapons on them going forward. 16:16 as mentioned 16:16 if there is just 1, you can generally deal with it in melee 16:16 by putting the helmet back on when it's removed 16:16 until you get a free turn (+25 speed!) or it misses 16:17 jonadab: apparently docbot provides restoration too 16:17 so I guess that works as a "reusable" restore ability 16:17 in case you lose str/con from poison and radsick 16:18 didn't know it did 16:18 Actually, my speed is -25 at this time. 16:18 yes 16:18 due to burden 16:18 why are you burdened 16:18 Ah. 16:18 str drain I gues 16:18 Don't know, let me drop some junk. 16:18 s 16:19 was 16 earlier I think 16:19 Do I have any use for beer? 16:19 beer is the only way I think to confuse yourself 16:19 How about my starting optimized monkey wrench, is it useful? 16:19 realibly 16:19 which is useful for some floppy disks 16:20 Hmm. 16:20 especially debugging 16:20 optimized monkey wrench is good 16:20 Ok, will keep that. 16:20 wait 16:20 monkey wrench 16:20 I am thinking of restraining bolt 16:20 I'm not sure what a monkey wrench even does 16:20 Oh, no, my restraining bolt is debugged, and the other one is of unknown provenance. 16:20 I guess it can repair stuff? 16:21 Ah. 16:21 Sounds... like a niche object. I will leave it here for now. 16:21 Also the duct tape. 16:22 they both do the same thing 16:22 repair stuff 16:22 duct tape is better but isn't reusable 16:22 Oh, my stormtrooper helmet is buggy. Lovely. 16:22 Maybe I should find another one, and another migo. 16:22 optimized = blessed? 16:22 And trade. 16:22 aosdict: I think so. 16:23 aosdict: yes 16:23 Gah, no travel. 16:23 anyway, the reason confused debugging is great 16:24 1: if you use it on a debugged floppy disk of debugging, you optimize it 16:24 My first QoL FR for ZAPM: travel. 16:24 And I'm guessing optimized debugging is good? 16:24 this allows you to, if not confused, select a thing to increase BUC on from buggy, to debugged, to optimized 16:24 (It _sounds_ good.) 16:24 and if confused, debugs your entire inventory 16:24 Ah. 16:25 of course this works better if you have more than 1 debugging 16:25 so you don't end up expiring your newly optimized debugging disk 16:25 But you'd need at least two floppy disks of debugging to pull this off. 16:25 Yeah. 16:25 I mean, expiration is only 33% 16:25 but still 16:26 you might want to restore your str 16:26 I'm gonna leave my two unknown implants in robot town until I can debug the helmet. 16:26 back to its original level 16:26 How do I do that? 16:26 docbot 16:26 Right. 16:26 Which service? 16:27 one of them :D 16:27 I'm guessing it's not intestinal exam or radiation perge. 16:27 *purge 16:27 the unIDed ones 16:27 I mean 16:27 That leaves wound treatment, SNU, or PFAZER. 16:27 Ah. 16:27 That was a body scan, PFAZER. 16:28 So I guess SNU is what I needed. 16:28 Still burdened, though. 16:28 hmm 16:28 I guess your str was already ok then? 16:28 It's currently 12? 16:28 yes 16:28 bleh 16:28 I guess that was your original str? 16:28 Dunno. 16:29 well I guess you was burdened by autopickup then 16:29 most of my pine hasnt had a chance to season properly 16:29 summer was a wet one 16:29 (its officially autumn btw) 16:29 drop your rifles I tghink 16:29 FIQ: I didn't realize I had autopickup on. 16:29 But maybe I picked up something. 16:29 you can't get good skill in them anyway 16:29 They've been _very_ useful in dicey situations. 16:29 most of my pine logs wont split with the axe 16:30 are you carrying or using a stormtrooper suit 16:30 jonadab: hmm ok 16:30 luckily i have a manual hydraulic backup, and even it was having minor issues bleh 16:30 you are not 16:30 oak was splitting just fine however. yay 16:30 Should I use my last ID floppy? Seems I ought to keep one in reserve. 16:30 yes, I'd keep it 16:31 Is this a good place to leave my buckazoids? 16:31 yes 16:31 but they don't weight much afaik 16:31 Ah. 16:31 how many bullets are you carrying 16:31 that generally ended up my bottleneck in terms of encumbrance 16:31 just 28 16:31 well 16:31 you're not burdened anymore 16:32 28, for the assault rifle, and that's like 1-2 encounters if I use it. 16:32 why are you still carrying around that uniform if you raen't using it 16:32 I have more ammo for the lazer cannon. 16:32 Oh, good point. 16:32 Err, laser rifle. 16:32 doesn't it give more AC than the flak jacket? 16:32 How heavy are all these canisters? 16:32 I think canisters are rather heavy... 16:32 let me check 16:33 What gives more AC than the flak jacket? 16:33 I think the uniform does? 16:33 Not sure 16:33 The uniform goes in the suit slot. 16:33 Oh 16:33 Nvm then 16:34 I swapped it out for the radiation suit. 16:34 Right 16:34 Should I use-ID the duplicate floppy (ZARRO BOOGS)? 16:35 I would 16:35 after dropping buckazoids 16:35 in case of hypnosis 16:35 er 16:35 Ok. 16:35 spam 16:35 nice teleport 16:35 Ok, then. 16:36 I'd personally just use-ID all of the floppies 16:36 Oh, I bet one of these shops had a mini computer, would that weigh a lot less than the mega? 16:36 (And can I afford it?) 16:36 it weights less 16:36 oh wait 16:36 it doesn't 16:36 interesting 16:36 500 buckazoids. 16:37 so I guess keep the mega then 16:37 It weighs the SAME? 16:37 it has a voice interface 16:37 meaning it is usable while blind 16:37 yes 16:37 Ok then. 16:37 1200 for both 16:38 urgh 16:38 it would be more useful with a proper table of these things 16:38 it is not exactly easy to figure out what these values mean 16:38 Right, someone should write a spoiler generator for zapm :-) 16:38 Just port my spoiler.c over, I am sure it will need only quite minor adjustments. 16:38 you should, yes :) 16:39 jonadab: minor, right 16:39 Found another floppy of identify. 16:39 the way zapm deals with the "makedefs issue" 16:39 is to string match 16:40 isA("floppy disk of hacking") 16:40 and similar 16:40 So no PM_ constants and POT_ etc. 16:40 nope 16:40 No big huge switch statements from hell? 16:40 I like it already. 16:40 nope, it uses callbacks instead 16:40 But huge _nested_ switch statements. 16:40 Oh, callbacks. Hmm. 16:41 That can make backtraces weird. 16:41 The reason that NetHack does this is to have the switch statements in the first place, right? 16:41 aosdict: Not sure. 16:41 Jump tables for optimization and all that 16:41 aosdict: there's also a fair share of special cases 16:41 "fair share" 16:41 like checking for PM_DEATH 16:41 NetHack is mostly _exceptions_ to the special cases. 16:41 for special wand of death behaviour 16:41 And some of the exceptions have their own special cases. 16:41 jonadab: right 16:42 jonadab: I described nethack's source earlier today as "a web of special cases" 16:42 that's basically what it is 16:42 What use do I have for a debugged canister of plasma? 16:43 FIQ: the ones I can't stand are those like https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:NetHack_3.6.0/src/trap.c#line4571 16:43 jonadab: 4d6 plasma damage 16:43 you do *not* need a switch statement for that 16:43 it's not very useful for drinking 16:43 FIQ: So treat it like a grenade? 16:44 yeah I guess 16:44 grenades are probably better though 16:44 I generally just discard all unhealthy canisters I find 16:44 and grenades 16:44 Ok, I will plan to use the canister next time I see a group of enemies that are even slightly scary. 16:44 for encumbrance purposes 16:44 but I play software engineers 16:45 Black jumpsuit? 16:45 their strength is like 8 16:45 randomized appearance 16:45 similar to radiation suit 16:45 radiation suit is the best in the game 16:45 you don't need anything else 16:45 Right, but radiation suit is the best... ok, check. 16:46 you have surprisingly little money 16:46 Do I want a railgun? 16:46 I left some money in robottown. 16:46 railgun is the most powerful gun in the game but it misses a lot 16:46 ah 16:46 Not a lot though. 16:46 (4d12 damage) 16:46 I think space marines can use it excellently, but others, not so much 16:48 don't do that 16:48 attack the M bare-handed 16:48 for a level gain 16:49 jonadab: ideally you want a powered armor eventually 16:49 I don't think I can get close. 16:49 gives a ton of AC and weights 0 when worn (due to being powered) 16:50 Where do I find that? 16:50 I usually have found several by the point you are 16:50 I'm surprised you haven't 16:50 Well, I've found other things. 16:50 There's gotta be some variance. 16:50 I suppose 16:50 yeah 16:50 what is the point of playing a jock? 16:50 +5 reflex.. :P 16:51 jonadab: did you attack the M with a weapon 16:51 elven probably 16:52 these tend to have power armor 16:52 So glad I have a laser sword. 16:52 FIQ: Oh, might've. 16:52 sometimes 16:53 space helmet is better than stormtrooper 16:53 Space helmet. 16:53 So as soon as I can debug... 16:53 I can swap that. 16:53 use-ID floppies? 16:54 Ok. 16:54 What do I want to hack? 16:55 well 16:55 success rate is low 16:55 Transportation? Identify? Hacking? Something unidentified? 16:55 since you lack program skill 16:55 Ah. 16:55 So it probably doesn't matter? 16:55 Do I destroy the hacked thing if it fails? 16:55 but I'd try transportation I Think 16:55 Ok. 16:55 "You remove the copy protection from your 2 floppy disks of transportation." 16:56 nice 16:56 That _sounds_ good. 16:56 careful with lawyers! 16:56 but now you have reusable tele 16:56 good stuff 16:56 what you can do 16:56 is try to hack ID 16:56 and if it succeeds 16:56 go to space base 1 and ID stuff 16:56 Ah. 16:56 Space base 1 is a safe place to do that? 16:56 since if you do summon a lawyer 16:56 you can promptly go downstrairs 16:57 *downstairs 16:57 Ah. 16:57 and never come back 16:57 Can I drop _one_ of my two floppies of ID? 16:57 failing to hack will at worst make the floppy buggy 16:57 and buggy ID does the same thing as debuggerd 16:57 *debugged 16:57 buggy = cursed? 16:57 Oh.. Ok. 16:58 Ok, did that. 16:58 it worked? 16:58 hacking floppy might be optimized, then 16:59 (oh and by the way, don't bother trying to hack hacking... as a non-programmer you will never succeed unless you found an excessive amount of +5 intelligence implants) 17:00 jonadab: the game will notify you when you have summoned an L 17:01 just so you know 17:01 it happens 1/13 * 5/6 * 5/6 of the time (latter 2 is likely a buggy RNG check) 17:02 and you probably don't want to be burdened if you do summon a lawyer 17:02 in case it doubleturns you and pursue 17:10 raisse: yes 17:10 Right, when I get back to my saved game, I am planning to leave most things on SB:2, take a couple of things up to SB1 to ID. 17:10 buggy = cursed 17:11 debugged = uncursed 17:11 Will the L summon next to me? 17:11 optimized = blessed 17:11 Or if I stand on the down stair, will I be able to flee before he sees me? 17:11 jonadab: yes it will summon next to you 17:11 Oh. Will it follow me down stairs? 17:12 Maybe I should not stand on down stair to do it then. 17:12 nothing follows between stairs to my knowledge 17:12 Oh. 17:12 Huh. 17:12 Well, that would make things almost too easy. 17:12 need to double check if L is special cased 17:12 I see no special cases for lawyers anywhere 17:13 oh there 17:13 for whatever reason, lawyers specifically have an isALawyer 17:13 rather than the way every other check is done 17:13 hmm 17:14 jonadab: nope, no special case for lawyers following 17:14 there is no special case for that monster anywhere except in floppy disk code 17:14 to see if it already summoned one 17:15 however, lawyers do get teleport 17:15 and telepathy 17:15 Ok. 17:16 jonadab: I cannot 100% gurantee that the strategy I suggested above re@standing on > and IDing stuff will work 17:16 but I don't find any code that says it wouldn't 17:16 there's no "follower" tag on lawyers 17:16 Ok. 17:16 or similar 17:16 Maybe I will put my things on SB:3. 17:16 Juuust in case. 17:16 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:16 lawyers are dangerous, so you should stay on the > 17:17 Yes, but if I go down and it follows me somehow, I don't want to be running around picking up my things burdening myself. 17:17 right 17:17 35920504841493 17:17 I suppose you could just try to transport yourself in that case 17:18 most dangerous lawyer skill for you is probably cease and desist 17:18 it paralyses in fear 17:18 seize evidence would hurt, but isn't too bad otherwise 17:18 (it steals the computer + your cracked floppies) 17:18 That'd be annoying, but not fatal. 17:19 right 17:19 and you have a copmuter atrobot town 17:19 that you could buy 17:19 *computer at robot town 17:20 Right. 17:21 Summon witnesses would likely actually be _useful_ if not for the fact that, with an L present, I wouldn't want to take the time to deal with anything else. 17:21 It'd be dangerous if I were trying to _get_ to the stairs, but not if I'm on them, I think. 17:21 all their skills except for reading a cease and desist letter will set them to flee for a while 17:22 so it seems like it will probably not be outright deadly 17:22 just item destruction (rip floppies and computer) 17:22 Ah. 17:22 Ok. 17:22 Still, I think I'll unburden myself on SB3. 17:22 And read on the SB1 > 17:22 ok 17:22 btw, if you don't know 17:23 mutant abilities (which lawyer ones count as) work on charisma 17:23 Ah. 17:23 meaning you can't cast a lot until you run out 17:23 so if the L for some reason does decide to follow 17:23 you could try executing transportation 17:23 and flee 17:23 Right. 17:23 flee to the next > maybe. 17:24 right 17:24 If I beat him there, good to go. 17:24 hm 17:24 reading these skills, an L seems much tamer than it ought to be 17:24 I wonder if there is something I am missing... 17:24 Oh, probably. 17:25 Can summon witnesses bring in more L? 17:25 it picks a random monster 17:25 So potentially, but not likely. 17:25 which can theoretically be another L but is probably not going to be one 17:25 also I think an ftp daemon would be more dangerous 17:26 Likely. 17:26 (megabyte breath gives -100 speed, and Us in melee *hurt*) 17:26 But if it was like a 1/3 chance of two more L each time, you could get explosions. 17:26 right 17:27 I'm not exactly sure on how zapm's speed system works 17:27 but if I am reading this correctly, if a lawyer sues for damage or seize evidence, it will flee for a very long time 17:27 making it a nonthreat unless you call its attention by using more cracked floppies 17:28 (it will usually not make another L if one already exist) 17:28 What happens if it sues for damages and you have no buckazoids? 17:28 it proceeds to flee 17:31 jonadab: did the hacking disk selfdestruct yet? 17:31 if not, try to hack debugging if you find it and optimize ID 17:31 that's what I'd do, at least 17:31 makes ID do 1-5 items instead of always 1 17:32 (and a buggy debugging disk is mostly safe, it will just debug itself first) 17:35 jonadab: I found this table, you might find it useful since it has weight info https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/ZAPM_Item_Prices 17:38 ^ elenmirie's table 17:38 ahh 17:38 cool 17:39 FIQ: No, it survived the two uses so far. 17:39 Don't have a debugging floppy identified yet to try it on. 17:39 mhm 17:39 I'll be doing ID when I get back to the game, though. 17:40 right 17:40 just I figured, if you ID-ed debugging in the process 17:40 you could try to have it cracked and optimized, to speedup the ID process 17:40 (and also means less chance of lawyer shenanigans...) 17:42 Ah. 17:45 EPI: a monster attack that steals maxhp from you, boosting the monster's own current and max HP by that amount. 17:45 Needless to say, some of the monsters that get this attack should be fast and spawn in groups. 17:46 EPI: and it should be a weapon attack, so if such a monster just _happens_ to generate with a battle axe, then, well. 17:47 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:51 YANI: vampires should only drain levels some of the time. Most of the time they just use a new AD_DRHP attack that saps your HP and heals them. 17:53 FIQ: you should add a "bloodbound" property to weapons. You can't unwield a bloodbound weapon - unless you polymorph or do something expensive - but it heals you for 1 hit point per hit. 18:09 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 18:41 jonadab: You seem to have attracted the attention of a lawyer. 18:41 it did get a turn, but did not follow me downstairs 18:45 FIQ: which variant is this? 18:45 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-22 07:32 EDT: I attempted to run fiqhack under aimake to figure out what tiles was missing. This happened: http://home.fiq.se/aimake.log 18:45 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-22 07:39 EDT: I seem to have fixed it. Apparently aimake doesn't like .o or .d files nd similar around the source 18:45 ais523: the zapm variant 18:45 and right, if aimake sees any files in the source folder 18:45 it treats them as source files 18:45 aimake made those files... 18:46 oh I misunderstood nvm 18:46 sometimes you might legitimately have, say, a hand-written .o file as an input 18:46 although it's rare 18:46 (see: prebuilt/*.dll in the Windows build) 19:16 FIQ: Huh? I saved over two hours ago. 19:17 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 19:30 FIQ: Attempted to hack debugging, failed, no more floppy disk of hacking. 19:30 rip 19:30 Also, the floppy of debugging is buggy, which with it not being hacked probably means not awesome. 19:30 jonadab: I was quoting my own testing on the server 19:30 Ah. 19:30 startscummed until I got hacking 19:30 Oh, I see, _you_ attracked the lawyer. 19:31 yeah 19:31 Ok. 19:31 But I have optimized bug detection, buggy spam, buggy debugging, and still have the cracked floppies. 19:31 Also upgraded to a +2 optimized flak jacket. 19:32 And I have a debugged canister of restoration, FWIW. 19:33 Oh, and an optimized radiation processor. 19:33 Which I can't install because of the cursed storm trooper helmet. 19:34 so I have a cracked blank floppy disk 19:34 there seems to be no prevention of making hacking based on that 19:34 If you write it, will it still be cracked? 19:34 allthough making hacking is rather expensive 19:34 so I think I will hold off for now 19:35 until I have more skill 19:35 jonadab: I think so, yes 19:35 If it does, then that is the much easier way to get cracked hacking 19:35 and doesn't require ridiculous int + programming skill 19:35 also this is the 3rd floppy disk of hacking I find this game 19:36 Nice. 19:38 Is a tricorder worth 200 buckazoids? (I have 1062.) 19:39 What about an electronic gizmo? 19:39 He wants 300 for that. 19:39 You gain the "Teleport" mutant power! 19:39 Oh, nice. 19:39 nice and best ability in the game 19:39 too bad I have 20% success rate on it 19:39 jonadab: tricorder is stethoscope 19:39 Oh, hmm. 19:40 electronic gizmo can be geiger counter, whatever the magic whistle equavilent is called in this game, and a motion sensor 19:40 Does it operate on a free-turn basis like NetHack stethoscope? 19:40 yes 19:40 Hmm, since I know so little about this game's monsters, that could be useful. 19:40 I think I will buy the tricorder. 19:40 motion sensors works somewhat like warning 19:40 kind of 19:40 it will show you red 0s of monsters who recently moved 19:41 Ah. 19:41 and non-robots always (because they can't stand perfectly still) 19:41 geiger counter.. I guess you know what it does 19:41 clicks more or less based on radiation exposure 19:42 Sure. 19:42 What does a portable hole do? 19:43 Is it an escape item? 19:47 telescoped rifle, I am guessing that is accurate but otherwise inferior to other rifles? 19:48 Sure, now that I have cracked identify, I find floppy disks of identify _everywhere_. 19:52 portable hole creates a temporary hole on your location 19:52 if applied downwards 19:52 So you fall to level below? 19:53 think so 19:53 sniper rifle (telescoped rifle) does 1d10 piercing damage 19:54 considered light gun 19:54 Heh. 19:54 * jonadab leveraged a migo to get rid of the buggy helmet. 19:55 Ugraded to space helmet. 19:55 Installed optimized ratiation processor. 19:56 E - a suit of shiny armor 19:56 nice 19:56 you're set with radiation now, that's for sure :P 19:56 How likely is the suit of shiny armor to be a big deal? 19:56 Given that I have a laser sword, and an optimized +2 flak jacket? 19:57 it's reflec armor 19:57 which gives terrible AC but reflection 19:57 basically, it's useless fro you 19:57 *for 19:57 Ok. 19:57 Do I want to pick up a narcoleptor? I am guessing not, I have three good implants. 19:57 +4 cerebral co, +5 reflex coord, optimized rad proc. 19:59 "You see a pink horror." In fact, I see two of them. 19:59 Are these very dangerous? 20:00 narcoleptor is restful sleep 20:00 you can add 5 implants 20:00 Ah, does not sound important. 20:00 Oh, I can have up to 5, ok. 20:00 I will keep an eye out for potentially good ones then. 20:00 plus yellow fish which occupies an unique ear slot 20:00 Ok. 20:00 (translates robot speak) 20:00 Should I melee the pink horrors? Or flee? 20:02 Between NetHack making me afraid of bright magenta monsters, and Brogue making me afraid of the word "horror" as a monster name, I am experiencing more than the usual amount of trepidation about this particular new monster. 20:03 Alright, here goes nothing. I am wielding an energy sword, so I think I'm gonna whack one once and see what happens. 20:03 Hmm, there are at least three of them. They seem to have significant HP. tricorder time. 20:03 pink horrors can deal rather high damage but aren't special otherwise 20:03 Ok, that one's at 3/34 after 3 hits. 20:03 I'm at 72/72 after three misses. 20:03 So far so good. 20:04 Ok, their bite is real stuff. I'm now at 57/72. 20:04 ERr, 59/72. 20:04 But yeah, I can handle these guys as long as I can do it in a bottleneck and there aren't more than about four of them. 20:05 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05 My Int is up to 19. 20:05 cool 20:05 the cap is 25 20:06 Ok. 20:06 intrinsic cap, that is 20:06 not sure if extrinsic can go beyond 20:06 The sewers appear to be a good place to find brain canisters, I think because of the migo. 20:06 aw 20:06 I wanted to see if I could make a cracked hacking floppy 20:06 so I set up a macro for farming the c things 20:06 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 20:06 but I messed up and died :P 20:07 jonadab: in my winning game I only found 1 the entire game 20:07 -!- xynashi has left #hardfought 20:08 the one I won at hdf, that is 20:08 funny, zapm seems to have the same issue as NH4 20:08 where dgl watchmode gets lost 20:09 IIRC this is related to dgl looking for screen refreshes, but curses-alikes not doing screen refreshes unless explicitly told to? 20:09 how's the ZAPM game going FIQ 20:10 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 20:10 K2: I won like 2 days ago 20:10 since then I've mostly been messing around, not trying to win 20:10 I just lost another game due to messing up a farm setup :P 20:10 wanted to make a cracked hacking floppy disk 20:10 and I would have succeeded if not for meddling radbeetles 20:11 hah 20:11 well hey congrats 20:11 Hmm, I am guessing a debugged canister of mutagen is probably dangerous, about like quaffing vats? 20:11 jonadab: I find healing canisters (not full healing, the normal ones) rather unimpressive in how much they heal 20:11 so I generally just use it for max HP gain 20:12 they heal 4d8, for reference 20:12 Ah. 20:12 max HP gain is 1d3 20:12 a debugged canister of nano cola, what is that good for? 20:12 It increases charisma temporarily 20:12 Remember that in zapm, cha is basically your pw 20:12 Ah, so only useful if I want to cast my hypnosis or whatever. 20:12 yeah 20:13 I will leave it here for now, maybe pick it up later. 20:13 jonadab: Mutagen will give radiation but is guranteed to give you a spell 20:13 (if possible) 20:13 And I don't need shotgun shells right now because I left the shotgun upstairs. 20:13 FIQ: OH, hmm, so I should use that later, when I am near the doc. 20:13 Right 20:13 But no reason to take it deeper into sewer. 20:14 Indeed 20:14 Also note that merely carrying mutagen emit radiation 20:14 This isn't an issue for you 20:14 Oh, right, leave it up here then. 20:14 because you have a radiation suit 20:14 but just so you know 20:14 Oh, true. 20:14 for the future 20:15 bugged x-ray specs, bugged gamma ray guns, any fission power plant and any mutagen canister 20:15 I do need to increase my Str. 20:15 are the 4 items that radiate in inventory I think 20:15 jonadab: you can't 20:15 unless you find gain ability 20:15 Ever? 20:15 or by every 4th level 20:15 I have a buggy canister of gain ability. 20:15 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15 well I mean 20:16 you can't do it in a special way 20:16 like intelligence 20:16 you want optimized gain ability ideally 20:16 why is zapm on there and not prime? 20:16 works like blessed in nethack 20:16 bug_sniper: devnull 20:16 ??devnull 20:16 allthough I suggested to Tangles to look into PRIME for backporting bug fixes 20:16 bug_sniper: There was talk of adding PRIME later. 20:16 in anticipation for devnull 20:16 yeah 20:17 But probably not until December. 20:17 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 20:17 oh, I see 20:17 jonadab: too bad you failed to hack debugging D: 20:17 being able to optimize everything would be great 20:18 ah wel 20:18 l 20:19 I do have another floppy of debugging now. 20:19 Dunno if it is buggy or not. 20:19 Gah, my Str is 7. 20:20 NO wonder I am burdened. 20:20 Can my debugged canister of restoration fix this? 20:20 careful 20:20 Or the doc? 20:20 str of 0 will kill you 20:20 both can 20:20 Ok, Imma go see the doc then. 20:20 restoration has a chance to not completely restore abilities 20:20 why would you not use the canister...? 20:20 I mean, that's kinda what it is for 20:21 Or not. 20:21 rip 20:21 you had -675 speed 20:21 meaning you moved every 7 turns 20:21 roughly 20:21 Yeah, I didn't realize how much I picked up, it was too much. 20:21 And _just then_ a pink horror showed up. 20:21 but why didn't you use the canister? 20:22 But that was a pretty good run for me at this point. 20:22 did you anticipate using it for something else? 20:22 FIQ: I figured I could save it if I went and saw the doc. 20:22 ah 20:22 not a good idea with -675 speed :P 20:22 And then I panicked. 20:22 Right. 20:22 I didn't realize THAT until I was dead. 20:23 I am used to NetHack where the amount that makes you worse than burdened is _double_ the amount of weight that makes you burdened. 20:23 Apparently not the case in ZAPM. 20:23 fwiw you were on the penultimate sewer level at most 20:23 RIP 20:23 people react like NetHack burdening is a really huge deal 20:23 when in fact, it's surprisingly gradual 20:23 the last level has some loot, a guranteed radiation suit and a guranteed fusion generator 20:24 Burdened is bad but it's not as game-endingly bad as some people think 20:24 ais523: I've always felt that people think burdened is way worse than it is 20:24 ais523: Apparently it's a bigger deal in ZAPM. 20:24 right 20:24 jonadab: not really 20:24 which reminds me, I should implement Druid in NH4 sometime 20:24 just you were horribly str-drained 20:24 encumbrance is gradual in zapm 20:24 moreso than nethack 20:24 FIQ: Yes, but I was burdened, picked up like three more things, and boom. 20:24 Dead. 20:25 you probably picked up space jumk by accident or something 20:25 Oh, possible. 20:25 interestingly, NetHack has two burden states below burdened 20:25 Didn't intend to for sure. 20:25 but both names consist entirely of whitespace 20:25 so they're very hard to tell apart as a player 20:25 and I don't think there's any gameplay differences between them 20:25 ais523: speaking of whitespace 20:25 sometimes I think of them as unburdened and underburdened 20:25 I noticed that the food status problem helpfully has whitespaces in it in NH3 20:26 this confused my statuscolors curses logic 20:26 until I trimmed it 20:26 "food status problem"? 20:26 weak, etc 20:26 ais523: Also, is it my imagination, or is there a turn limit somewhere around a couple of thousand, past which you cannot carry _anything_ while squeezing past a narrow space, but before that you can? 20:26 oh, hunger state 20:26 jonadab: no, it's purely based on total inventory weight 20:27 I can't remember if that's measured relative to Burdened or relative to zero, though 20:27 jonadab: it has to do with your carry cap 20:27 the function names are somewhat misleading 20:27 which is bizarre, I think it is accidental 20:27 due to the weird way the weight count routines work 20:27 ais523: It is NOT purely based on total inventory weight. 20:27 if it's measured relative to Burdened, it could be that carrying zero is still too close to Burdened to work 20:27 ais523: An amount you *can* squeeze past on turn 200, you *can't* on turn 20,000. 20:27 it returns a value for how much is left until you are burdened 20:27 let me check recent NH4, where I didn't change the algo but I did change the function names to make more sense 20:29 if (invent && (inv_weight_total() > 600)) { if (mode == DO_MOVE) pline(msgc_cancelled, "You are carrying too much to get through."); return FALSE; } 20:29 jonadab: that seems very clear to me 20:29 why 600? 20:29 Hmm. 20:29 I may have to subject this to wizmode testing. 20:30 the test in vanilla 3.4.3, with its more misleadingly named functions, is "if (invent && (inv_weight() + weight_cap() > 600))" 20:30 note that inv_weight returns a negative number if you're below burdened, which is not what you'd expect 20:30 600 is a bad number 20:31 this probably implies that you can squeeze while burdened, too, if your str is low enough? 20:31 should be able to fit through diagonals more easily if you can carry more total 20:31 well squeezing shoud be based on volume, not weight, really 20:31 but that isn't tracked 20:32 weight is a decent enough approximation 20:33 shouldnt a tiny creature that can carry over 1000 be able to squeeze with it? 20:33 remove the word over 20:33 human corpse weighs 1450, nymph corpse weighs 600, should be able to fit an extra 850 on the squeeze 20:34 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36 Evil Patch Idea: having more alignment makes you more aligned /with the dungeon grid/, so diagonal movement becomes harder 20:36 Ouch. 20:36 that's the most plausible explanation I can think of for your "does it work like this?" theory :-D 20:37 in NetHack, if you can't find a plausible explanation off real-life physics or D&D physics, use pun-based physics instead :-D 20:37 Heh. 20:37 Well, you can't say NetHack doesn't have pun-based physics. I mean, loadstone. 20:38 cursed potion of gain level 20:38 wand of turn undead 20:38 Yes. 20:38 Dudley's Dungeon was better at it, though 20:38 it once destroyed a hole using a potion of unholy water 20:38 Ow. 20:40 now that we have #tip I kind-of want to implement that 20:40 it doesn't seem broken 20:41 What, the unholy water destroying a hole trap? it's not broken, unholy water is significantly less common than boulders. 20:41 Although, might want to make it break sokoban conduct. 20:42 right, if you're tracking Sokoban cheating, that probably counts 20:44 man i love that 20:44 Are we having pun yet? 20:44 Some of the puns in NetHack are a little pitiful, though. 20:45 like the pit fiend/viper one 20:45 Yes, that one is really the pits. 20:45 But the one that really makes me wince is "currently" 20:45 (In "Your health currently feels amplified.") 20:46 i wonder how many puns im missing 20:47 cause i learned nethack like too young to understand the concept of a pun so ive never actually later on stopped to look for them 20:47 There was a player in #nethack a while back who expressed the opinion that they should strive toward _every single message the game ever prints_ being a pun. 20:47 I can see that while hallucinating 20:48 Hmm. 20:48 Some of the hallu messages are funny/interesting but not puns, though. 20:48 Other kinds of jokes _do_ exist. 20:48 yeah 20:48 does zapm have infected floppies? 20:49 the whole swap of "strange" and "normal", for example 20:49 I mean I know that prime has them but not sure about zapm 20:49 bug_sniper: I think just buggy. 20:49 ais523: Yes. 20:49 that's one of those things that takes a lot of work internally (and you have to be aware of it on any message that might use the words) and yet is only a minor interest to the actual player 20:49 "the devteam puts in a lot of work just to amuse players who might happen to come across it" 20:49 I guess that's what the "spirit" of TDTTOE is 20:50 Also some of the pot-smoker-stereotype jokes. 20:50 Those aren't puns, but they fit anyway. 20:50 so this is unrelated and I was talking about this yesterday or something but i wanna bring it up again cause i dont recall hearing anything resolving it but didnt someone have some discrepency involving naming their fruit The Amulet of Yendor? 20:51 that should work just fine (if leading to some somewhat confusing messages) 20:51 NetHack doesn't check the item name to know if it's an amulet 20:51 something somewhere went weird 20:51 might have been in messages 20:51 Plurals? 20:51 the only thing I can think of as potentially leading to weird results is wishing, perhaps in bones 20:51 right, message code often /does/ check the string representation of a name 20:52 I cant remember what it was but it was something more interesting than dumb pluralization 20:52 fruitname is a certified nightmare for the plural/singular code. 20:53 it's the main driving process for getting better pluralization code :-) 20:53 3.4.3: "This tastes like lotu juice" (fruitname: lotus). 20:53 one of the devteam's playtesters dumps a new batch of broken plurals on us every now and then 20:53 (The dev team fixed that one.) 20:53 was the 3.4.3 lava time escape bug ever figured out? 20:53 It's fundamentally impossible to handle literally _anything_ someone might potentially use as a fruitname. 20:54 Names of actual fruits and popular foods should be handled, though; and lotus because of the very famous story about lotus eaters. 20:54 Demo: Yes. 20:54 Demo: There were two different bugs related to time and lava in 3.4.3. 20:54 They're both fixed in 3.6 20:54 can i get the breakdown anywhere? 20:54 or just a general concept? 20:54 Yes. 20:55 On the wiki, find the Bugs in NetHack 3.4.3 page, and search for "lava". 20:55 (Search within the page with your browser's Ctrl-F or whatever.) 20:55 There are links to the specific commits in the 3.6 repo. 20:56 (There are more than two lava bugs, but only two of them involve time.) 20:56 the basic idea is that sometimes you could stand on lava without the game noticing 20:56 does that affect the TAS? 20:56 a bug along those lines that I discovered independently of the devteam is that you could unequip RDSM in lava with no apparent ill effects 20:56 and no, it doesn't freeze the turn counter 20:56 just the lava counter 20:57 oh 20:57 That was one of them: your fireproof waterwalking boots could get removed and the game didn't notice until next turn. 20:57 The other one was that while you were sinking into lava, things like checking inventory made you sink faster. 20:57 jonadab: that latter one was known pretty much forever 20:57 and is normally called the "lava time bug" 20:57 but it has its own entry, distinct from the "you can safely stand on lava" bugs 20:57 Yeah. 20:58 Yes, they're two distinct bugs. 20:58 nice ok 20:58 glad to finally know 20:58 the lava time bug also affects /dev/null/nethack grues (although possibly not in the upcoming revival?), and clairvoyance 20:58 in 3.4.3, you can repeatedly move into a wall, or check inventory, etc. to make clairvoyance trigger if the turn counter has a suitable value 20:59 wow 20:59 suitable value? 20:59 IIRC it only works on turns divisible by 15 21:00 why? 21:04 Demo: If you want to amuse yourself some time, go through the 3.4.3 bugs list on the wiki, and count how many bugs involve the following things (independently): lava, shopkeepers, wielded non-weapons, polymorph, leashes, pits, steeds, invisibility, levitation. 21:04 presumably as a simple way of gating how often it triggers 21:04 jonadab: engulfing? 21:04 Oh, yes, engulfing, definitely that too. 21:04 I reported a bug with leashing monsters while engulfed very recently and it was fixed 21:04 (the bug was that it was possible, despite the pet being outside and you being inside) 21:04 ive had a lot of fun with low hanging dnh bugs 21:04 And yes, a lot of bugs hit _more than one_ of the things on that list. 21:05 e.g., wielded leashes, or polymorph while levitating, etc. 21:06 I think the reason the wield slot is so fragile is that unlike basically every other slot, there's no restriction on what you can put there, making it easy to get creative 21:06 (ready and quiver too, but those slots hardly do anything) 21:07 Oh, blindness should also be on that list. 21:07 blindness is probably just mostly visual artifacts? 21:07 ais523: Most of the 3.4.3 bugs with the wield slot involve various ways objects can get _out_ of the slot without uwep getting unset. 21:08 Demo: Actually, a lot of the blindness bugs are messages. 21:08 Inappropriate messages. 21:09 Stuff like "As you gaze upon your ruined homeland..." in the quest messages, monsters that "look better" when they quaff healing, etc. 21:10 ais523: wield slot also has many more ways it can be lost in weird ways 21:10 (un)wielding weaponps is the only case in fiqhack that still doesn't properly call property update functions 21:11 +this is the major reason fiqhack weapons can't have fumbling as property 21:11 Although, I think my favorite blindness bug is C343-41: a rolling boulder falling into a pit you can't see only makes a sound if the hero is blind. Which is actually a case of the bug being when you are NOT blind. 21:11 because it requires a property update to function correctly 21:11 There are a TON of ways for an item to get _out_ of the wield slot. 21:12 yeah 21:12 I mean, stone to flesh. 21:12 and they all call different functions 21:12 or no function at all in some cases 21:12 Polymorph. 21:12 Shattering. 21:12 and this applies for both monsters and players 21:12 Bullwhip. 21:12 Nymph stealing. 21:12 naturally with no shared code 21:12 Yes. 21:12 All with no shared code at all. 21:13 so yeah 21:13 The NH4 solution is to nuke the uwep variable from orbit and make it a #define that checks through your inventory and finds the item with the "currently wielded" flag, if any. 21:13 currently all weapon-based properties are those that don't need to run a property update appropriately 21:13 mostly -- Firebrand is an exception 21:14 (but the alternative, removing Firebrand, would be dumb) 21:14 eventually I want to allow arbitrarily many items in each slot 21:14 internals-wise 21:14 Firebrand, but not Frostbrand? 21:14 there'd still be caps for gameplay reasons 21:14 jonadab: losing firebrand can make you vulnerable to lava 21:14 ais523: The caps could depend on polyform, though. 21:14 FIQ: Ah. 21:14 so it needs to call property update stuff 21:14 just that it doesn't in all cases due to, yeah 21:14 Right. 21:14 Makes sense. 21:15 You hit a rust monster and your wished-for non-rustproof firebrand rusted away? Boom. 21:15 jonadab: yes, that was the plan 21:15 Wait, can that happen in FH? 21:15 fiqhack items can't erode away, no 21:15 Ok, only in Grunt, right. 21:16 and slash'em-derivatives 21:16 Ah. 21:16 i still dont get how one plays grunt 21:16 Demo: Very carefully. 21:16 Demo: Carefully 21:16 Demo: It's actually not THAT bad. 21:16 yeah 21:16 i mean without hating yourself 21:16 But yes, you have to have some idea what you're doing. 21:16 i think ill ascend grunt in june 21:17 I've never ascended any variant of NetHack in under a month. 21:17 one of grunthack's main changes is why fiqhack exist 21:17 But I've gotten far enough in Grunt to be killed by Demogorgon, in his lair. 21:17 but some parts of grunthack is just... cruel 21:17 Sure. 21:17 like beholders 21:17 The hardfought version of GruntHack has now given beholders a higher difficulty number so they don't show up nearly as early. 21:18 Because yeah. 21:18 I'm still not sure if I like this 21:18 im willing to play the dark disciple of sgrunt's version 21:18 it means there has been gameplay changes 21:18 major ones at that 21:19 the idea was that it was grunt, with bug fixes 21:19 Demo: You don't want to play the version without the spit-crash fix though. 21:19 Especially not on a server with an inactive admin. 21:20 YASI: we could fork Grunt, revert the beholder change, and then start adding EPIs. 21:20 spit crash? 21:20 Call it "Grunt Harder." 21:20 Evil Variant 21:21 Demo: In the sgrunt version, if a monster tries to spit at you from some specific number of tiles away (8 IIRC), while you can't see it, the game segfaults. 21:21 Or something like that. 21:21 not at you 21:21 at other monsters 21:21 Oh, right, it was when it tries to spit at another monster. 21:21 Yeah. 21:21 that sounds great if its recoverable 21:21 But was some specific distance from you. 21:21 it is not 21:21 oh 21:22 this had the side effect of making N and S my prime genocide targets when palying grunt 21:22 on gho 21:22 Demo: It's sometimes recoverable, if the server admin can be bothered to recover it for you, and sometimes not. 21:22 right but not auto recoverable 21:22 Not auto, no. 21:22 jonadab: kerio hosted grunt for one year 21:22 my game got crash bug 21:22 it was not recoverable 21:22 if he tried 21:22 And he decided not to host Grunt? 21:22 isnt he an arch lich? 21:23 Was this when he developed the NH4-only policy? 21:23 it would just crash again the moment I entered the bad level 21:23 jonadab: it was slightly before then 21:23 but the same time yeah 21:23 Probably related. 21:23 I think the stth mishap is what caused it 21:23 and it happened the same month 21:24 (The thing where kerio accidentally recompiled sporkhack with a different set of options, nethack helpfully declared stth's game invalid and removed it, while he was on the ascension run) 21:24 ow 21:24 Ow, yeah. 21:24 i wonder if k2 killed my dnh game 21:25 jonadab: nethack's way of dealing with save filees is one of the worst I've seen 21:25 if you look at the savefile handler funny 21:25 it'll remove your save 21:26 etc 21:26 right, this is a big reason I wanted to use the save-continuously method of dealing with permadeath, rather than the delete-save-on-load method 21:26 (or the Dungeons of Dredmor method, which is broken in an entirely different way) 21:27 Yes. 21:28 what does dredmor do? 21:28 The 4.3 save system is good. 21:28 it's just... slow 21:28 FIQ: deletes the save if you die 21:28 this seems to be a common theme with things developed by ais523 :) 21:28 otherwise it saves just like a text editor 21:28 I mean, it can probably still usefully receive some improvements, optimizations and such, but at a basic level it's very good. 21:28 (jk) 21:28 ais523: ah 21:29 ais523: Like Emacs, or like Notepad? 21:29 does notepad even have save security? 21:29 Notepad just saves overtop. 21:30 A lot of simple/basic text editors do. 21:30 overtop? 21:30 So if the power goes out during a save, you don't have either version intact. 21:30 Overwrite. 21:30 Ah 21:30 Directly over the previous data. 21:30 jonadab: I actually don't know 21:30 Mhm 21:30 Emacs writes the new version, then renames it over the old. 21:30 it's not very user-visible without experiments 21:30 (Which breaks hard links, but it's better in every other way.) 21:31 also, the easiest "simple" way to do it is to rename the old version to/over a backup file name, then write the new file in place 21:31 jonadab: as with everything in emacs, there is a way to disable it 21:31 so if the write fails, at least you have the backup 21:31 if you need to preserve links for some reason 21:31 ais523: That would be equivalent to what Emacs does. 21:31 FIQ: Oh, not surprising. 21:31 jonadab: no it isn't, the Emacs method is atomic, this method isn't 21:31 Ah. 21:38 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: rikersan] 21:38 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 21:39 -!- rikersan has quit [Client Quit] 21:39 Evil Patch Idea: There are actually nine hells, i.e., nine complete versions of Gehennom generated. Going down from the castle picks one of them at random each time. Only one has a vibrating square, though. 21:40 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 21:40 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 21:40 EPI: And an infinite number of pandemoniums 21:51 just add an extra hundred levels of mazes 21:51 that would be more evil 21:51 oh actually read idea 21:51 hmm 22:21 FIQ: so you think it's ok for a mid level character to consistiently run into a creature like a beholder? 22:26 jonadab: there's already a version of 'grunt harder'. it's called 'GruntHack' ;) 22:26 besides, players in the know genocide those monsters first chance they get, they might as well not even be in the game 22:26 i should make beholders non-genocidable 22:27 and unable to charm/tame 22:27 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:27 those beholders are like the catopeles from slashem 22:27 and make them part of the summon nasties bit 22:27 catoblepas 22:29 I've been killed by their death daze before 22:29 5 of the 41 grunthack ascensions were accomplished without genociding anything... 22:30 and the very latest one (Tangles) was no E word and no genocide 22:30 so its doable 22:35 https://sourceforge.net/p/nethack/NetHack/ci/e2f1ec76ace8ac0cb2a13644aaf59de3d0de8495 this is a stupid fix 22:46 [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law), 45116 points, T:2597, killed by a watch captain 22:59 K2: if you want to make beholders non-genocideable, you need to tone down some of the other nastiness like wide-angle disintegration rays 22:59 but FIQ might cry if i alter beholder any further 22:59 ;) 22:59 the reason why people genocide them at first opportunity is because they are by definition unbalanced 23:00 i'm not changing them back. there's no way any creature that has the killing capacity of a beholder should have a difficultly level of 11 23:01 having said that - I had a pet beholder for a little while in one game before the change 23:01 a troll killed it, and was able to because beholders are slow and (before the change) had low HP 23:02 now that they are beefed up HP wise 23:02 if you can still tame/charm them, making pets out of them may be way more OP than having an archon as a pet 23:03 so i might make it so they are unable to be charmed/tamed 23:04 or at the very least, make it very difficult to charm them 23:04 that's based on their MR if i recall correctly 23:04 and i did beef that up for them already (from 0 to 50 MR) 23:05 [fh] MTF (mtf) (Kni Hum Mal Law) killed the ghost of MTF, the former Bachelor, on T:1911 23:08 does grunthack have anything dangerous after you genocide beholders? 23:08 yes 23:09 vorpal jabberwocks 23:09 dragons, gelcubes and water elementals can engulf you 23:09 I'm still genociding them (or maybe unless I get charm monster first, heh) 23:09 and NPC's that spawn with asc level gear 23:09 yeah, I guess there's that 23:10 there's also a change i want to implement that i've asked for in vanilla (but it never happened and probably never will) 23:10 K2: that kinda makes up for monsters that can cast polymorph at you and your stash 23:11 Grasshopper: what makes up for it? i dont follow 23:11 player monsters with partial asc kits 23:11 ah yeah 23:11 you're guarantted to find BoH's and silver dragon scale mail 23:12 guaranteed 23:12 last game of mine a L polyed my stash (which I was standing on) 23:12 even their weopons are decent 23:12 weapons 23:12 jesus fuckin christ 23:13 i didnt think i was this drunk 23:13 ... mmm yeah its just a buzz 23:13 i know the difference 23:13 i just cant fucking spell 23:14 so the astral level makes conflict mandatory so that you're not fighting against all the evenly matched opponents at once 23:14 perhaps 23:14 conflict can help 23:14 but you dont necessarily need it 23:15 e.g. purple rain 23:20 -!- notym has joined #hardfought 23:22 Wish I was drunk 23:23 !booze Grasshopper 23:23 * Beholder passes Grasshopper a pint of booze, brewed by the late Pinobot at -16 degrees Celsius. 23:24 Hope this is the good shit that they keep under the bar 23:24 romulan ale 23:26 -!- K2-irssi has joined #hardfought 23:26 hmm 23:27 first time to try irssi 23:29 kkkk 23:29 errr 23:29 heh 23:30 there we go 23:31 !rum K2-irssi 23:31 * Beholder throws K2-irssi a bucket of Screaming Viking, conjured by demogorgon at 59 degrees Fahrenheit. 23:31 I want some of that super-booze from Valhalla that Thor gives to Stan Lee and his mates 23:32 ;) 23:32 Darn, just tossed the bucket of Screaming Viking to K2 23:32 !rum Grasshopper 23:32 * Beholder delivers Grasshopper a glass of Bundy rum, prayed over by TheresaMayBot at 75 degrees Celsius. 23:32 do yiu know what a screaming viking is? 23:32 Yum! 23:32 you 23:32 me? 23:32 anyone 23:33 screaming viking is a mixed drink yes? 23:33 yes 23:33 Vodka, Vermouth, and... lime? 23:33 Or lemon 23:33 where was it first introduced? 23:33 Gonna guess a bar 23:34 ok, which bar? and when? 23:34 A bar. Somewhere. In the past 50 years. 23:34 exit 23:34 oops 23:34 Rip 23:34 -!- K2-irssi has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:35 yes last 50 yrs 23:35 * Tarmunora_ hits up google for answers 23:35 but now you're guessing ;) 23:35 remember the show 'Cheers' ? 23:35 Cheers 23:35 :P 23:35 in the 80's and 90's I often drank a drink very similar to the screaming viking 23:36 Before my time, I'm afraid 23:36 good vodka (usually Russian), a dash of soda, lime and maybe bitters on ice 23:36 vermouth would have been a good addition instead of bitters 23:37 i remember in the early 90's when ketel one was considered top shelf 23:37 nowadays its barely above house stock 23:47 oh interesting 23:47 the first time I heard about ketel one was reading Achewood 23:47 #ad 23:47 1ZCCiCeaprdC0 23:47 #ad 23:47 1ZKCiKeaprdC1 23:47 #ad 23:47 1ZOCiOeaprdC2 23:47 CiZeaprdC3 23:47 Da 23:47 :named eaprdC 23:47 ^ 23:47 what 23:47 oh for god's sake, me 23:48 lol 23:48 Again, waht? 23:48 oh6: i used to drink Ketel One. a LOT 23:48 pasted my polypile unstacking script again 23:48 huh 23:48 ketel one gimlets (up) 23:49 or as a kamikaze 23:49 or in mind erasers 23:49 I had another one for 3.4.3 but this is much better - I can unstack 32 things per turn (or 36 if I really cut down my inventory) 23:56 what's a gimlet? 23:59 well, wikipedia says gin and line juice, I guess you just substitute ketel one for the gin