00:17 [nh4] Archy (phollenback) (Arc Dwa Mal Law), 23678 points, T:1776, killed by a large kobold, while sleeping 00:22 [nh4] Galahad (phollenback) (Kni Hum Mal Law), 20083 points, T:725, killed by a gnome king 00:30 T725?That's fast 00:38 [nh4] Fyeah (phollenback) (Ran Hum Mal Cha), 30451 points, T:2005, killed by a hobbit 01:01 -!- Menche has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:02 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 01:05 who uses "edible bra" as fruitname? 01:09 apparently there is yet another hhurricane? 01:09 wasn't 3 enough? 01:10 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 01:10 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 01:11 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 01:31 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 267 points, T:641, killed by a jackal 01:57 [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:19979 01:59 -!- Tarmunora__ has joined #hardfought 02:03 -!- Tarmunora_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:04 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:10 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 02:48 Evil Patch idea: zapping a wand has a chance to fail, like in many other roguelikes. The chance of failure depends on stats and I guess wand skill if in a variant that has one, but never goes below 5%, just to taunt the player. And failure uses up a charge. 02:51 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:51 Also if you don't know how many chargest the wand has, it uses few charges instead of one. 02:52 haha, slex actually has a "discharge trap" that causes zapped wands to lose a random amount of charges, but it happens even if you know how many there are :D 02:58 maybe I should get around to implementing the mojibake trap one day 03:08 aosdict: "Eating a chameleon corpse has a chance of conveying intrinsic polymorphitis." is already in slex! :D 03:29 Too bad nothing conveys polycontrol. 03:29 Except the ring itself. 03:56 [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 18933 points, T:3829, killed by a monster (invisible priest of A'En) 03:57 LarienTelrunya: are you the one who uses edible bra as fruitname in dnh? 03:57 nope, my fruitname is always "grape" 03:58 ah 03:58 (I'm fairly sure you expected something filthy from me :P) 03:58 that's surprisingly... plain 03:58 for someone like you 03:58 also, go team invisible priest! 03:58 a'en the suicune 03:59 at least it wasn't team missile bomb 04:01 :D gotta love Viet Crystal, best pokemon game ever! 04:22 -!- nht has joined #hardfought 04:28 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:3945 04:33 wow a speed run 04:33 wow a speed run 04:36 heh 04:36 heh 04:38 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:42 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 04:42 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 04:57 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 12771 points, T:5068, killed by a dagger 05:01 -!- nht has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:23 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 05:23 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 05:57 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 4875 points, T:3343, killed by a mumak 06:05 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 06:07 morning 06:10 Morning, k2 06:11 hiya Mandevil 06:11 got something for you - https://www.hardfought.org/xlogfiles/dn36/xlogfile 06:12 Good 06:13 meant to put that up after work yesterday but had to do dad things 06:13 heh 06:25 aosdict: what if protection was stripped once you enter gehennom 06:25 making it an earlygame thing only 06:26 And it would make lot of sense. 06:26 FIQ: or was just suppressed in Gehennom, making it useful for the Planes and for Vlad? 06:28 ^ that 06:29 what's the progress on not-devnull, btw? 06:29 not really trying to rush people, just wanting to keep updated 06:29 zapm will go up tonight when i get off work 06:31 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.] 06:31 jonadab: Rename the mundane two-handed sword to "claymore". Apply it to adjacent tiles to create a land mine. 06:31 why the landmine thing? 06:32 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 06:33 "Roaming shopkeepers, that will attack and kill you even before you break any doors." 06:33 I actually considered making shopkeepers rarely spawn roaming 06:33 being the only way to get a shopkeeper service 06:33 and after using one service once, it disappears, satisfied 06:33 but I think the normal slash'em/dnh service system is better 06:34 "Artifact Peril-Sensitive Sunglasses, which when equipped cause blindness and warning when a monster is in line of sight." 06:34 jonadab has been playing zapm? 06:34 it has those 06:36 "Add a spellbook of wish, but it is not randomly generated, unwishable, costs over 100 ink minimum to write, and is level 27 so nobody can cast it." 06:36 hah 06:36 something I've considered is to add a Wish spellbook on the coaligned astral altar 06:41 That would be good for stupid ascension stuff. 07:17 FIQ: There's always another hurricane, this time of year. The ocean turns them out pretty reliably one or two per week. (Not all of them hit the coast and make the national or international news; but if you're looking for information about the next hurricane, there's always one.) 07:19 FIQ: There's a type of landmine called a claymore. 07:19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M18_Claymore_mine 07:21 FIQ: Putting the Wish spellbook on the _coaligned_ astral altar makes it possible to use object detection to figure out which altar is which without going there. 07:26 this (among others) is why I haven't 07:26 One of the reasons I want to do it is so you can be colorblind when polymorphed into a colorblind monster. 07:28 do what? 07:29 Implement colorblindness. 07:29 But as I said, it'd be a lot of work for the amount of payoff, so I will probably keep postponing it forever. 07:30 UH 07:30 *uh 07:30 I think I am missing something? 07:30 you just randomly said "it" 07:30 without a reference 07:30 Oh, I think I might've switched channels, by mistake. 07:30 Hang on... 07:31 Ah, yes, I did. 07:31 Sorry about that. 07:33 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 07:35 wow 07:35 never seen that before 07:36 google apparently thought I was suspect 07:36 and threw a captcha at me 07:36 FIQ: NSA/FBI were notified. 07:36 :( 07:37 at least FRA didn't get me 07:37 (swedish equavilent to NSA) 07:37 I think it happened to me too. 07:50 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:21 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 08:21 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 09:13 jonadab: hmm 09:13 if I were to add the poly mechanics of players 09:13 like how slash'em and grunt does it 09:13 should I make it so that weres don't depoly on death? 09:13 because this can be an issue for players 09:16 FIQ: I sort of like ais's suggestion about suppressing protection in Gehennom, and I don't really agree with stripping it completely like you propose, but there are issues with each 09:16 for example, simply suppressing it gives you a free power spike when you emerge from there on the asc run 09:18 stripping it entirely means the player is incentivized to explore and complete as much as possible in the upper dungeons before entering gehennom 09:18 FIQ: honestly, werefoo occur so early and are so dangerous _anyway_, I would tend to argue for having them die on death, rather than depoly. 09:19 jonadab: this makes lycanthropy much more dangerous 09:19 mind you 09:19 Ah. 09:19 I consider lycanthropy that you can't cure right away to be fatal anyhow. 09:19 I've never survived more than a few dozen turns with lycanthropy. 09:19 honestly I'm not a fan of lycanthropy 09:19 I don't think it has actually been debilitating for me in any game 09:20 but it makes the game much, much more tedious 09:20 Either I get it cured, or I return to human form without my armor and surrounded at an inconvenient time and get killed. 09:20 just suicide 09:20 jonadab: IMO lycanthropy is the worst designed status problem in the game 09:21 it makes the game very tedious 09:21 but not notably harder 09:21 frustration issue...? 09:21 you keep dropping your stuff 09:21 all the time 09:21 so you have to go to somewhere and equip it 09:21 over and over and over 09:21 it's *annoying* 09:22 oh and hope you like being able to carry like 2 items 09:22 before being burdened 09:23 You can't actually _carry_ anything while in animal form, you just try to stand over your stuff and guard it, because you know that if you let yourself get chased away from there, you are going to die. 09:23 IMO lycanthropy should trigger much more rarely (once every 2k turns or so?) but make you lose complete control when in effect 09:23 unless you have polymorph control in which it shouldn't trigger at all unless you ask for it 09:23 Hope you are in a defensible position when you contract lycanthropy, because you are never going to be able to retreat to one before you turn into a whatever. 09:24 What should =PFSC do if you have lycanthropy? 09:24 nothing 09:24 IMO pfsc should only work on others than the one wearing the ring 09:24 In the Evil Patch, equipping it probably kills you outright. 09:25 and it should prevent all forms of shapeshifting 09:25 polymorph (including chameleons/etc) and werechanges 09:25 PFSC actually seems like it should block your own lycanthropy. Gives it a bit more of a use. 09:26 that makes it superior to unchanging 09:26 but it's protection from shape chang*ers*, not chang*ing* 09:27 so it should make you much less likely to be hit by them? :) 09:27 FIQ: I don't really have a problem with that, especially as unchanging is still effective for non-weres. 09:27 Plus, in the part of the game where it matters, a player will be lucky to have one of those two items. 09:28 aosdict: so you think it should be changed to also apply to the player 09:28 hmm 09:29 I think I prefer having it work as now but affect any shapeshifting, including "normal" poly 09:29 i.e. still not affect the wearer 09:29 it is a magical item whose powers force shapechangers to stay in their normal form 09:29 if it needs to be renamed slightly, so be it 09:30 don't get hung up on the name though 09:30 aosdict: I am not 09:30 hell, raisse raised a point about my proposal being at odds with the name :P 09:31 well, not affecting the wearer seems very weird to me 09:31 you would think a magic ring would apply the *most* to someone wearing it 09:32 conflict 09:34 that's not really the same though, since that would entail a) removing some or all of the player's agency and b) having to figure out how the player under conflict works 09:35 with PFSC the behavior doesn't have to be anything special for the wearer 09:35 heck, I can even imagine fiqhack wererats and werejackals using this ring to stay in their stronger human form 09:36 but as werecreatures they can survive 2 kills 09:37 anyway that's besides the point 09:38 I suppose you might be right 09:38 actually, conflict affecting the player has the potential to be really interesting 09:38 it could provide a much needed nerf 09:38 aosdict: a while ago I proposed making conflict give monsters "free turns" attacking a random nearby monster in melee 09:38 if possible 09:38 at endturn 09:39 however I am not sure if this is a good idea 09:39 hmm, not sure if I like them getting extra attacks 09:39 because arguably, this is a *buff* 09:39 in some cases 09:39 (1v1) 09:40 for the player being affected by conflict, it could be the player has a 50% chance to attack an adjacent monster instead of doing whatever they were doing 09:40 aosdict: how about this: at the start of a new turn, a "conflict" effect resolves, meaning everyone affected gets one turn deducted by force attacking a random nearby target 09:41 and if the player is speed 12... 09:41 not sure how well that would work with turn order, but yeah seems reasonable 09:42 well I was thinking 09:42 proc turn order as usual 09:42 but if the monster has yet to have a conflict effect 09:42 for that turn 09:42 it will take over 09:42 assuming the monster fails the saving throw against conflict 09:43 seems even more reasonabl 09:43 e 09:45 -!- Menche has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:46 this means conflict gets less dangerous the faster monster is 09:46 I'm not sure if this is good or not 09:46 *the faster the 09:48 it means, for example, that it wont work nearly as well on Air as it does atm 09:49 the issue with conflict attacking the player is it's hard to define how the player should attack. Always melee versus adjacent monsters and if there's no adjacent monster the player gets to have their normal turn? 09:49 aosdict: I thought I was clear enough? 09:50 one sec 09:50 If the player's a ranger, should conflict allow them to shoot those silver arrows they were saving? 09:50 If a wizard, should they be forced to cast finger of death? 09:50 brb 09:52 http://sprunge.us/jgeg 09:53 this is what I had in mind 09:53 uh 09:53 wrong 09:53 http://sprunge.us/XMEh there 10:00 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 10:10 makes sense, though having non-melee characters force-melee stuff is weird 10:11 so a ranger would swing his bow, and a wizard might bare-handed punch something 10:11 what would that do about respecting touch_petrifies stuff? 10:14 it would ignore it, and stone the user 10:14 this is by design 10:15 if monsters can wear conflict, that's potentially evil 10:17 why? 10:17 players have abused conflict for years, time for payback ;) 10:17 nah, but seriously 10:18 I don't really see the problem 10:18 you can already now put on conflict to make a monster petrify itself 10:19 i like sporkhack's approach to conflict 10:19 your charisma plays a direct role in how well it works 10:20 even with a charisma of 18, there's a small (5% i think) chance it could fail 10:27 FIQ: Does that mean that it will use up turns? 10:27 FIQ: Or override player action? 10:28 Mandevil: um.. both? 10:28 not sure if I understand the question 10:28 but yes, it will, if you have something in melee 10:28 the 1st action in a turn 10:29 FIQ: Will the conflict-induced attack use time. 10:29 FIQ: Becaue if they do, can't you become unable to do anything? 10:30 Since your character will attack nearby monsters indstead? 10:32 yes 10:32 if there is something in melee 10:32 so be careful :) 10:32 That sounds really really bad. 10:32 It's essentially a paralysis. 10:40 'you feel compelled to attack instead...' 10:41 You will literally lose control of your character.\ 10:41 so don't use conflict 10:41 This is what I meant earlier with the player losing agency. 10:41 Mandevil: this is literally how conflict works right now for monsters 10:42 why is it more fair for the player 10:42 I know that it works that way for monsters. 10:42 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 10:42 also, you can just chose to, you know 10:42 not use conflict 10:43 But if you subject players to the mechanic, the conflict will instantly become the worst danger in the whole game! 10:43 if there are things in melee 10:43 you can still keep your distance 10:43 and apply conflict to a group of monsters 10:43 FIQ: Well, I was assuming this was monsters causing conflict on player. 10:43 FIQ: would the player have the opportunity to remove their ring if they got surrounded by monsters? With the snippet you posted, I don't think so. 10:44 aosdict: they would not, unless they are fast or very fast 10:44 But yeah, that would be conflict nerf. 10:44 Conflict is kinda stupid anyway. 10:44 Mandevil: well 10:44 Curiously, DCSS has kind of conflict. 10:44 why would monsters put on conflict? 10:44 But it is high level spell. 10:44 do you put on conflict to make tame monsters kill each other? 10:44 FIQ: True. 10:45 FIQ: Maybe to stop you from running away. 10:45 that is an interesting point 10:45 Mandevil: another thing 10:45 I've considered giving players monster MR 10:45 of 1 10:46 meaning they have a chance of resisting based on their XL 10:46 Player MR is kinda stupid too. 10:46 player MR is "nerfed" in fiqhack 10:46 (most of the stuff MR is important for was removed) 10:46 the one major exception being wands of death/finger of death 10:46 In crawl MR is just smoothly moving value. 10:47 That can be increased by levelling up and some gear. 10:47 the major reason I haven't addressed MR 10:47 is that I need to figure out a way to deal with death rays 10:47 How about removing them? ;-) 10:47 that doesn't entail "be lucky or wear LS" 10:47 -!- yuring has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:48 something I have considered 10:48 is to have a helm of death res, and an ammy of it 10:48 and change sokoban prizes to work like un/grunt 10:48 That's gimmicky. 10:48 boh, "oR or helm of death res 10:48 It will simply become a required gear. 10:48 how conflict affects the player if a monster can wear the ring - your charisma should determine that 10:48 That's not very interesting. 10:48 here is the problem with death resistance: it automatically becomes required asc kit gear 10:48 what Mandevil said 10:49 now, this is a problem with MR too, since MR encompasses death res 10:49 urgh 10:49 I don't know :( 10:49 Just remove death magic entirely. 10:49 what about Death 10:50 Dunno. 10:50 I suppose I could replace death with disintegration 10:50 Removing death magic entirely is a fix, but I don't think it's the best 10:51 but I'm not sure if it's a good idea 10:51 aosdict: the sokoban cop-out was basically a means of guranteeing a means for the player of protecting vs death rays 10:51 if MR is to not protect vs death rays 10:51 an issue with death magic: it's one of the most blatant all-or-nothing things 10:51 something needs to 10:52 aosdict: vorpal is another one like that 10:52 this is why I don't like the sam quest nemesis 10:52 yes, but much much less common, and unprotectable 10:52 you have no reasonable way to be 100% safe 10:52 no 10:53 "oLS 10:53 K2-webirc: sam quest nemesis can double-bisect 10:53 I've seen it 10:53 that's your defense vs vorpal attack 10:53 i know 10:54 so if death is all-or-nothing, the sources of resistance to it must also be all-or-nothing 10:54 NetHack is just not well designed. 10:54 hrm well 10:54 having some cop out like it protects versus death, but drains some levels/maxhp anyway, doesn't really work 10:54 must have done something right. here we are ;) 10:55 because it protects versus *death* and is thus still worth it 10:55 Hm, it's late, got run to catch train. 10:55 cya Mandevil 10:55 aosdict: what if you could get it intrinsically somehow 10:55 in a way that is reasonable to get before you start seeing the wand 10:55 seems worse than if it's extrinsic only 10:55 (or in fiqhack, the spell) 10:55 well, poison res... 10:56 because then it's just another necessary resistance like poison res 10:56 and is still all or nothing 10:57 so ultimately 10:57 the solution is either to make death rays disgustingly rare (ADOM takes this approach) 10:57 have it as-is now, but maybe decouple from MR to unstrain MR demand 10:57 or remove it? 10:58 even if it's disgustingly rare, there still needs to be some measure of protection against it (because otherwise YAAD), and so it will still be considered necessary 10:59 aosdict: the approach ADOM takes with this is, all of the death ray users are fixed encounters, and you'll almost certainly have an amulet of death resistance that you can wear for the occasion 10:59 Full removal is not something I like, but full removal of the *instadeath* effect might work 11:00 in nethack, this could be made by i.e. making the only generated wand of death the one Orcus has 11:00 and remove the finger of death spell 11:00 because as long as instadeath from death magic is there, that sets up a binary choice of, does your game end now? y/n 11:01 aosdict: but then it isn't really a wand of *death* :P 11:02 and as long as that binary choice is there, there ought to be something to protect against it 11:02 and if there's something to protect against it, even partially, it is basically asc kit gear 11:03 or resistances. 11:03 aosdict: what if vlad was guranteed to spawn before orcus, had a source of extrinsic death res, and orcus was the only source of the wand of death in the entire game? 11:03 (and it was made non-wishable, at least in fiqhack, due to monster wishing) 11:04 I mean, then you're just shifting the "requirement" to include only orcus, instead of the entire endgame. Doesn't help it being required. 11:05 if orcus couldn't covetous-warp you could move tactically to avoid his zaps 11:05 can't monsters move and zap at once? anyway, it seems only useful for fireball casters and such 11:05 actually that could warrant *no* resistance to it 11:05 hmm true 11:05 with the latter 11:06 the former is stupid design and something fiqhack and dnethack both address 11:06 removal of covetous warping? 11:06 no 11:06 the move+zap thing 11:07 aosdict: anyway, you could also slow him down if you wanted to 11:07 basically, make it possible, with care, to stay away from his rays 11:07 the speed system is sufficiently hidden from the player that that would not be a reliable way to deal with him 11:07 and if you're worried regardless, have a spare LS 11:08 what do you mean? 11:08 and slowing him down involves lining yourself up with him 11:08 I was referring to making him like speed 3 11:08 oh, you mean as a designer, not as a player casting slow monster? 11:08 yes 11:09 still not really that great 11:09 are you sure 11:09 I think this could be an interesting 'puzzle' 11:10 if I were writing the wiki strategy guide for this game I would say "An amulet of life saving is a must-have, and it's best if you have some backup amulets too." 11:10 its not a must-have 11:10 ascended plenty of games without one 11:10 K2-webirc: um 11:10 K2-webirc: this is for the hypothetical game FIQ and I are talking about 11:10 yeah 11:11 oh 11:11 lol 11:11 ;) 11:11 jump in convo / jump back out 11:11 aosdict: anyway, so basically the strategy tip for sam quest nemesis 11:11 I don't see what's so bad about it 11:11 and you shouldn't need spares 11:11 you don't even need one amulet 11:11 just be careful 11:11 if you play nethack carelessy 11:11 you will die 11:12 evil death rays or not 11:12 because, you may be reducing the number of death sources in the game, but it doesn't actually help the problem of: if you get hit without protection from the item, your game is over. if you get hit WITH protection, your game is not. 11:13 aosdict: I am suggesting completely removing any resistance to death in any form 11:13 except "oLS, clearly? 11:13 8besides LS) 11:13 *(besides LS) 11:13 yeah 11:13 so you still have an item that resists death magic. 11:13 which is what I'm still hung up on. 11:14 I generally don't use life saving to protect vs stoning 11:14 even if it only does it once and then disintegrates. 11:14 aosdict: well basically 11:14 the idea is 11:14 don't get hit with death 11:14 in first place 11:14 if you were hit with death 11:14 Oh, and of course, since this is Orcus with a wand, any reflection source would be perfect protection too 11:14 LS or not 11:14 you did something wrong 11:14 not in fiqhack :) 11:14 wand skill 11:17 Okay, so what we have here is: 1) Orcus who is 2) very slow and 3) can't move and zap at once and 4) isn't intelligent enough to do clever wall bounces, correct? 11:17 4 is not true 11:18 at least in fh, any monster can raybounce 11:18 (and they will) 11:18 aosdict: maybe I should just replace death ray with disintegration 11:18 and the spell 11:18 that seems like an easier and somewhat less controversial approach 11:19 Yeah 11:19 and doesn't demand the player to know about orcus in advance (this was an issue with older versions of nethack and Medusa) 11:19 Alternatively, make black dragons death dragons and remove disintegration 11:19 aosdict: I mean, even if I were to do this change 11:20 I would basically have to state, in bold text, on top of the fh wikipage 11:20 Well, my next point was going to be that for melee characters, you still basically have to know how the speed system works, you can't just rely on "orcus is pretty slow" 11:20 "orcus changed, read this" 11:20 and by having to do that 11:20 I am clearly doing something wrong 11:21 aosdict: and what if someone decides to haste orcus 11:21 for melee, the best strategy would then be to stay a knight's-move away and wait for him to move next to you, I guess? 11:21 yes 11:21 oh and before you start 11:21 and how does that work if he turns to flee? 11:22 you probably want to clear the area 11:22 and dig out the walls 11:22 to avoid being cornered 11:22 aosdict: if Orcus is speed 3, you can afford going in, whack him, and going out 11:22 theoretically it is fully possible to deal with him this way 11:23 allthough of course rangers and (especially) wizards have it easier 11:23 yes, but that's not obvious to those who don't know how the speed system works 11:23 and as you mentioned, he could haste himself 11:23 well I could make him not spawn with the spell 11:23 but that will not prevent *others* from hasting him 11:23 so yeah 11:23 it's not worth it 11:24 I think if I am to mess with death, I will change it to disintegration 11:24 another possible fix to death magic is to break player-monster symmetry and make it instakill monsters, but not players 11:24 pffffffffff 11:24 yeah 11:25 ok so yeah, death->disint is a better idea than this 11:25 but is it a good one? 11:26 what I'm leaning towards, on the other hand, is one or more of the common death "side effects" 11:26 maxHP drain? 11:26 yes, or level drain, or con cap drain 11:26 maxhp is nice since it applies to monsters 11:27 and this is a *severe* penalty, of course, and can't be blocked (except rays might be reflected) 11:27 con cap drain would make it nearly useless in player hands 11:27 and cruel in monster hands 11:28 Er, rather, can't be blocked, but hallucination would still work. 11:28 if I were to make it drain max HP 11:29 I'd probably make it 1, 1d3, 1d5, 1d8, 2d6 11:29 +drain 11:29 per skill 11:30 unskilled, basic, skilled, expert, master 11:30 aosdict: one issue with max HP drain 11:30 it's nearly useless in player hands 11:30 I was thinking something like the lesser of 8d10 or half your max HP. 11:30 this is why I suggested disintegration 11:31 because it can reasonably be protected against 11:31 and is still effective in player hands (particularly against the most obvious usecase -- Rodney) 11:31 Do you still have disint resistance as in vanilla? 11:31 and I intend to nerf disintegration either way to work like in dnethack 11:31 but haven't gotten around to it 11:32 aosdict: yes 11:32 how I want disint to work: disenchant armor until it no longer contributes AC, then destroy it 11:32 rather than destroying it immediately 11:32 I think a powerful death magic penalty, though not game-ending, works, with a condition: 11:33 You can predict when it's going to show up, and have one or two actions to prepare yourself. 11:33 my issue with, say, the max HP approach 11:33 is that it nerfs it in monster hands 11:33 er 11:33 player hands 11:34 it makes the wand much less useful as a means of dealing with Rodney 11:34 or Riders, for that matter 11:34 So, if arch-liches can't covetous warp to you, that's good. If Rodney won't resurrect and immediately cast it, that's good. 11:34 FIQ: I very much dislike the ability to knock out Rodney and the Riders in one zap from a death wand 11:34 I see 11:34 and I favor removing the player's ability to do this 11:35 if that is the case, making it max HP drain is a benefit to you 11:35 since it isn't game-ending, and becomes less useful in player hands 11:36 A large max HP drain can be very good versus difficult monsters. 11:36 And note that the Riders don't have too much maxhp anyway. 11:36 it leaves you crippled though 11:36 and incentivize alchemy 11:36 which is something I want to not do 11:37 aosdict: does 1d8, 2d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d10 seem like reasonable drain values 11:38 for each wand skill level 11:38 Yes, the penalty for not preparing some defense versus death magic is to be crippled. This is why it's important for all sources of death magic to be visible ahead of time 11:38 6d8 -> 8d10 is a big jump 11:38 black dragon scale mail 11:38 aosdict: expert -> master is a big jump in general 11:38 with wand skill 11:39 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Wands_Balance_Patch#Wand_Effects_Scaling 11:39 for reference 11:39 why do my wizards (and not my cavepeople) find maces and spears? 11:40 FIQ: also, if death magic is a maxhp drain, it makes sense to have some things besides hallucination protect against it 11:40 since it's no longer *required* 11:40 black dragon scale mail 11:42 either that or green 11:43 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 12:01 python 12:01 whoops wrong terminal 12:06 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:07 * aosdict gives rikersan a figurine of a python 12:09 lol 12:13 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 12:17 there should really be a YAFM for pythons 12:18 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22 this parrot is deceased 12:22 good 12:23 okay I walked into that one 12:24 there should be that, AND another YAFM about the python language 12:25 [nh4] Sir Bloo (phollenback) (Kni Hum Fem Law), 42022 points, T:3671, killed by a water demon 12:26 :/ 12:48 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Raisse suddenly disappears!] 12:48 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 12:48 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 12:53 if you're killed by a python while hallucinating, you should get You die() instead of You die... 12:53 isn't that perl though 12:54 Perl is hallucinogen-distorted Python https://nhqdb.alt.org/?1641 12:55 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 12:56 I have no idea what the Python version of die is. 12:57 throw? sys.exit? 12:57 I was just going to say it's probably a method on the error string. 12:57 "Cannot open config file".exit(); 12:58 You should see the hoops you have to go through to simulate something a nice map { } sort { } grep { } map { } listfunction() chain in Python. 12:59 something *like 12:59 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:59 You end up with a bunch of horrid loops spread across half a screenful of code. 13:08 see you all in a bit 13:08 -!- K2-webirc has left #hardfought 13:09 speaking of bits 13:09 can we bring back the meaning of "bit" as twelve and a half cents? 13:13 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 13:15 aosdict: Only if we bring back one-dollar coins designed to be broken into eight pieces. 13:16 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:17 idea for a candy: chocolate coins that break into pieces of eight 13:17 Would chocolate coins be brown $, or %? 13:17 [nd] dammitjim (Cav Dwa Fem Law), 558 points, T:1712, killed by an iguana, while frozen by a monster's gaze 13:18 well this was an IRL idea but I'd make it brown $ in nethack 13:18 Oh, RL candy. Yes, that would be neat. 13:18 Pirate candy. 13:19 Only trouble is, if you wanted to be authentic, the wrapper should be silver colored; but it'd be way more marketable if the wrapper is gold-colored. 13:19 eh, I've seen mixed bags of silver-wrapped and gold-wrapped chocolate coins 13:20 Alternative: forget the extra half, if you want a word for an amount of money equal to twelve pennies, say "shilling". 13:20 (That's not twelve _cents_ per se, because the number of pence in a pound was not 100 when shillings were in use. But eh, details.) 13:20 There are also the disused terms "long bit" and "short bit" for 15 and 10 cents respectively 13:21 I was not aware of those. 13:21 Then there's my sister, who still thinks a "quarter till" or "quarter after" an hour should be 25 minutes before or after the hour, since a quarter is 25 cents. 13:22 (This is someone in her late thirties. I've tried repeatedly to explain that "quarter" means "fourth", but she isn't buying it, to her "quarter" only always means 25 of something.) 13:23 another interesting thing is that the United States has never actually officially called any coin a penny, and I think possibly this goes for nickel and dime as well 13:23 I knew "nickel" was a nickname (and these days a misnomer). 13:24 If I'd thought about it, I'd have guessed the same for dime. 13:24 But I didn't realize about the penny. 13:24 The quarter does say "quarter dollar" right on it. 13:24 The others just say how many cents. 13:25 Dime was actually planned, in the days when the idea of the mille was also being proposed 13:26 However, since it was derived from the French dixieme (tenth), it was intended to be pronounced "deem". 13:26 Wait, Wikipedia says the dime does say "one dime" on it. Complete with photo. 13:26 I was not sure about the dime saying dime. 13:27 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 13:27 Penny is the one I'm sure of, and I know quarters say quarter, but was not sure about the others. 13:28 The nickel is so-called because they used to be made (at least partly) out of nickel. 13:28 Which, as you can imagine, changed a long time ago now, due to inflation making nickel too valuable for use in nickels. 13:30 Oh, wait. 13:30 Wikipedia says nickles are still 25% nickel. 13:30 That... is surprising. And the other 75% copper, almost more surprising. 13:31 That's much too large a coin, at that value, to be made out of those metals. They need to change that, or inflation will make trouble. 13:34 Page says the mint is considering changing to copper-plated zinc. 13:36 A copper alloy is nice anyway, because it's antimicrobial. 13:36 [4k] Zappi (philbo) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 11442 points, T:6023, killed by a horse 13:36 YANI: wielding copper prevents an otherwise successful disease attack some portion of the time. 13:39 Evil Patch idea: remove all ways for the player to get resistance to death rays and touches of death. There, now magic resistance is suddenly much less important. :D 13:41 I mean, that's sort of what we were talking about. 13:44 Yeah, but in the Evil Patch, the death rays and touches of death remain, so it's still a case of "does your game end now?" except the answer is "y/y" :D 13:47 Although, in my book any variant that allows monsters to create unreflectable death fields with wands of death is slightly Evil Variant too :P 13:47 -!- eady has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:51 -!- Elronnd is now known as Rivenndel 13:51 -!- Rivenndel is now known as Elronnd 14:07 [fh] Wizzzzzzard (Goncyn) (Wiz Gno Fem Neu), 12302 points, T:705, killed by a small mimic 14:10 [nd] AlleyOop (Cav Dwa Fem Law), 1611 points, T:2637, killed by a sewer rat 14:22 -!- rikersan has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 14:30 hi 14:30 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 14:37 K2: fh upd...oh wait, no updates pending 14:37 heh 14:37 jonadab: when is .5 you think? 14:38 updated the devnull 3.6.0 port with Tangles recent changes 14:38 working on zapm 14:39 K2: can you spectate me 14:39 yup 14:39 what is wrong with HP/Pw? 14:40 missing 14:40 I am playing a special version of sporkhack which doesn't show your HP 14:40 much more exciting :D 14:40 rofl 14:40 seriously though, would be nice if that could be fixed 14:40 only in curses mode i take it 14:40 and !classic 14:40 hrm 14:40 works fine in classic botl mode 14:41 which makes no sense 14:41 ok 14:41 duly noted 14:42 [sp] FIQ (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 0 points, T:103, killed by kicking a wall 14:45 you know... when you think about it... it'd actually be really hard to kick a wall until you literally die. 14:45 NHINRL, of course. 14:46 [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) polymorphed his first object, on T:22398 14:48 here hold my beer... 14:48 so zapm compiled no prob 14:49 technically... that challenge should work now I think 14:53 dtype: any way to display a countdown timer in dgl? 14:53 you can display server time 14:53 but it's static 14:56 hah! 14:56 so if you zap a wand of cancellation at a nymph, it makes them plain 14:56 The plain water nymph tries to seduce you, but you seem uninterested. 14:56 has that always been a thing? or is this 3.6.x new? 15:02 that could always happen 15:05 K2: what am I counting down to? 15:05 a specific date/time 15:06 ah, in dgl, not website 15:06 yeah no 15:06 i mean *could* be done, but isn't 15:06 right 15:11 K2: have a cronjob that updates the display of the dgl UI every 1s :) 15:11 lol 15:12 every min would be better hah 15:12 I was joking :) 15:13 -!- nopthis has joined #hardfought 15:25 -!- nopthis is now known as karma 15:25 -!- karma is now known as karmabi 15:26 -!- karmabi is now known as karmabe 15:26 -!- karmabe is now known as karambe 15:26 -!- karambe is now known as karmabis 15:26 -!- karmabis has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28 -!- oh6 has joined #hardfought 15:28 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v oh6] by ChanServ 15:30 -!- karmabis has joined #hardfought 15:40 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:52 FIQ: I made a small patch to implement fiqhack's pw regen in vanilla. Seems really overpowered for hungerless-casting wizards, though, since you can reliably regenerate all power from a force bolt within several turns. Is there anything in fiqhack that balances this? 15:52 yes 15:52 they lost their entire starting inventory 15:52 with the exception of the spellbooks and cloak 15:52 and the weapon 16:01 ok, and I plan to nerf the weapon too 16:15 [4k] Zappi (philbo) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 13221 points, T:7141, killed by a puppy 16:24 wonder if I should fold those nerfs into the pw regen patch... otherwise wizards seem way too powerful out of the box 16:24 aosdict: well 16:24 wizards are supposed to be able to cast 16:25 that's kinda the point 16:25 I didn't consider it a priority to nerf them elsewhere, as long as their entire reason to exist is actually addressed 16:25 but what you could do 16:25 yes, and casting to the exclusion of everything else is good, I was just wondering about the granularity of this patch 16:25 is to revert the ancient buffs wizards got to HP/longevity 16:25 in exchange for being unable to cast 16:26 there is a comment in u_init about it IIRC 16:26 aosdict: FWIW, I don't consider them starting with a quarterstaff a problem 16:27 A quarterstaff makes for a terrible weapon, to be honest 16:27 It's among the worst 2-handed weapons in the game 16:27 I balanced it in fh by making it enhance spellcasting, like a robe 16:27 (This is redundant for a wizard, but I considered that OK) 16:27 My plan was to make it a single-handed staff with much worse melee damage 16:27 But... it's already bad 16:27 like 16:27 it's 1d6 16:27 only slightly more damage than a dagger 16:27 and it's 2-handed 16:27 meaning you forego a shield 16:28 I don't think a wizard should be wielding their staff in two hands 16:28 this is why standard wizard practice is to get rid of their quarterstaff ASAP 16:28 in nethack 16:28 aosdict: ok 16:29 and of course, that standard practice belies another problem (daggerstorming is OP) 16:29 but I've said enough about that 16:29 Oh, I forgot to mention 16:29 That is actually the one other thing I did to wizards 16:29 I nerfed their dagger skill to asic 16:30 *basic 16:30 No more daggerstorms for them 16:30 so: super spellcasting and great Pw regen, but no starting with magical items and no great skill at daggers? 16:30 yeah 16:30 well the cloak is magical :P 16:30 Did you make Magicbane a staff, or was that someone else? 16:30 (and the books) 16:30 but yeah 16:31 I made magicbane a quarterstaff 16:31 No more E-spam, no more wielding a small shield with magicbane 16:31 but, as per being a quarterstaff, it enhances spellcasting 16:31 also, in fiqhack, a cursed welded quarterstaff will not prevent you from casting spells 16:32 (allthough the other debilitating effects of having no free hands remain) 16:32 I can see Magicbane being a quarterstaff, and I don't have to implement the smaller staff stuff right now. 16:33 Maybe I should just make this an overall "wizard rebalance" patch 16:33 call it the Wizard Patch 16:33 oh wait 16:33 that's taken 16:34 trying to keep it smaller than the Wizard Patch :P 16:34 aosdict: pw regen changes impact other roles too, mind you 16:34 yes 16:34 just like the wizard patch impacted other roles :) 16:34 mostly the fact that eota is no longer "mandatory" for primary casters 16:35 (new pw regen formula alongside eota gives a rate somewhat similar to vanilla pw regen, but it is much faster without) 16:36 aosdict: if you are doing wizard/spell stuff 16:36 you should add spell maint :D 16:36 keeping it *small* 16:36 pff 16:36 you'll end up making wizard patch 2.0 16:36 just watch :P 16:37 Oh, eventually. 16:37 But I'd certainly get there with a combination of small stuff. 16:38 aosdict: oh, another thing fiqhack did, but this might arguably be too much change at once -- it gave wizards more starting spells 16:38 force bolt, magic missile + 2 random ones 16:39 https://github.com/FredrIQ/fiqhack/blob/4.3.0/libnethack/src/u_init.c#L196 16:42 hmm 16:42 if poison resistance was split into poison resistance and poison immunity 16:42 orcs should get the immunity 16:42 no other roles/races should 16:42 unless extrinsically 16:47 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:47 I was always envisioning resistance as something that could be partial 16:49 and honestly, it makes more sense for orcs to get either partial poison resistance, or sickness resistance 16:50 dnethack gives healers sickness resistancew 16:50 *resistance 16:50 which I think makes more sense than poison res 16:50 (dnh healers have both, though) 16:51 I wonder if healers predate sickness 16:53 I think foodpois has been around since hack 16:53 Ill came later, thouh 16:53 *though 16:55 -!- karmabis has left #hardfought 16:57 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 16:59 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 17:02 maybe orcs could start with poison resist and gain sickness resist at a high level where death by food poisoning isn't really a thing 17:02 or the other way around 17:20 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 17:20 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20 -!- elenmirie_ is now known as elenmirie 17:57 -!- rikersan has joined #hardfought 18:31 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38 -!- K2 has quit [Quit: Rico, smoke! *poof*] 18:39 !ping 18:39 Tangles: Pong! 18:41 -!- mode/Beholder_ [+Zi] by Beholder_ 18:41 -!- card.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ GruntHack 0.2.2 and Slash'EM Extended 2.0.5 are now live - NetHack 3.6.1-dev has been updated 18:43 -!- K2 has joined #hardfought 18:43 -!- mode/#hardfought [+o K2] by ChanServ 18:44 heh 18:44 hi 18:44 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 18:45 -!- Beholder has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:45 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ 18:57 -!- rikersan has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:30 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 19:33 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 19:42 [nh] oddrun1 (Ran Elf Mal Cha), 224 points, T:562, killed by a gas spore's explosion 20:03 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 20:09 [nh] oddrun1 (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 471 points, T:1151, killed by a wererat 20:32 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 20:38 hi ais523 20:38 hi 20:38 Hello ais523, Welcome to #hardfought 20:39 any news / anything you want to talk about? 20:39 right now we have /dev/null/nethack 3.6.0 up as well as zapm 20:39 I'm vaguely considering trying to get NetHack 4 building on Windows again, which would require disconnecting from IRC as I don't connect Windows to the Internet 20:40 can play test 20:40 how are the challenges going to work from the gating point of view? 20:40 Tangles is working on a method that forego's the perl scripts krystal was using for challenges 20:41 i need to have Tangles explain it to you 20:41 right 20:41 I've had my own thoughts about challenge gating (I don't much like the way that /dev/null/nethack did it) 20:42 I sent krystal a patch to improve it but it was never applied, I'm not sure whether he didn't like it or whether he just lost it 20:42 its using dgamelaunch to create a file whenever a challenge event happens 20:42 do you prevent people playing ZAPM until it's unlocked in-game? 20:43 Tangles has a way to do that yes 20:43 not active yet so we can play test zapm 20:43 just got it up and running a few min ago 20:47 -!- eady has joined #hardfought 20:53 -!- ais523 has quit [Quit: Quit] 21:28 -!- Webmant has joined #hardfought 22:37 https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/7184xn/devnullnethack_tribute_tournament/ 22:48 -!- K2 changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ /dev/null/nethack tribute tournament hosted here starting midnight PST on Nov 1st - https://redd.it/7184xn 23:40 [dyn] The Tourist (TheTourist) (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 2307 points, T:2307, killed by a killer bee