00:04 -!- loli has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 01:30 [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 73270 points, T:8951, killed by a cowardly attack on her breasts 01:45 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 02:07 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 02:09 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:49 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 02:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 03:05 [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu) killed the Great High Shaman of Kurtulmak, on T:2147 03:13 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Raisse suddenly disappears!] 03:13 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 03:13 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 03:55 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 03:55 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 03:55 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse\splat 03:55 -!- raisse\splat is now known as theRaisse 03:55 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse 04:26 -!- yuring has joined #hardfought 04:26 -!- yuring_ has joined #hardfought 04:28 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 04:28 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 04:37 Just playing slex and noticed weapon wield by enemies usually not in their loot. Is that a bug? 04:38 hi yuring! equipment on monsters is not guaranteed to drop on their death; this is intentional 04:39 (I'm Amy, the developer) 04:42 !pom 04:42 elenmirie: The moon is waning crescent; new moon in 2 days. 04:43 Thank you, Amy 04:43 you're welcome :) also, nice to see that Freenode is working for you 04:44 aosdict: (very, very belatedly) I'd classify "starved to death between two floating eyes in a corridor" under "death to floating eye" too. 04:47 WHAMMM!!! Fikkie drops a gold piece. 04:47 that's heavy gold 05:03 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 11489 points, T:6533, killed by a Green-elf 05:25 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 05:25 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 05:26 !ping 05:26 Grassy: Pong! 05:28 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:33 Evil Patch idea: new monster attack AD_DATA, "data delete". Deletes random data from the savegame file whenever it hits. 05:33 (Or if you want to be really evil, also random data from the hard drive :P) 05:33 would that crash the game? 05:34 it could probably crash upon the next autosave, which in vanilla would be when you change dungeon levels 05:34 too evil. 05:34 yeah, I'm not implementing it 05:34 too evil for Amy! that's my new definition of something very evil indeed :D 05:44 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 06:05 -!- yuring_ has left #hardfought 06:15 Evil Patch Idea: a nasty trap that deletes future levels that you haven't visited yet. Any attempt to visit those levels by any means results in your character being level drained and deposited back on the level you came from. If this happens to a Gehennom level, you can just levelport past it. If it happens to one of the Planes... too bad for you. 06:16 might be less E if the planes were exempt 06:16 I mean less excessively E 06:16 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 06:26 how would you get past the level on the ascension run, where levelporting doesn't work? :D 06:26 hm, cursed gain level wouldn't work either 06:26 a single trap that doesn't kill the character but makes it impossible to ascend is too evil 06:27 gah 06:27 very evil 06:27 like, the espresso of evil 06:28 did I ever mention that I despise the vanilla feature where the quest can render the game unwinnable? It just seems really out of place, since apart from it (and a bug with the book of the dead and lava) the game is never rendered unwinnable except by the player character dying... 06:30 ;) 06:30 hi LarienTelrunya 06:30 how's slex coming along? 06:30 hi K2-webirc! I've pushed some updates today, but it's a long way from being ready for the server ;) 06:31 no rush 06:31 i.e. saves have been broken but I'll break them again soon-ish 06:31 hahah 06:31 oh, that reminds me, I need to update the changelog 06:39 okay, done 06:39 [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) had Cleaver bestowed upon him by Hermes, on T:6200 06:40 wow, a gnomish healer wielding Cleaver... 06:40 -!- Grassy is now known as Grasshopper 06:41 I've had that too 06:41 I had a game from hell, this one 06:41 did the quest with it, it's quite a nice thing to kill dragons 06:41 yeah, should hit nice and hard 06:42 my healer had been lacking offensive abilities... 06:43 I got lycanthropy (werejackal) shortly after arriving in Minetown, and just after having prayed (nearly died to a rope golem) 06:43 then I ate a coyote corpse and got cannibalism effects 06:43 I mean, I'm a jackal not a coyote... 06:44 and jackals are scavengers that eat anything but nvm 06:45 so I had to survive another 1200-1500 turns in MT as a werejackal, waiting for my prayer and luck timeouts to tick over 06:45 it was hard but I did survive, thanks to a co-aligned altar 06:46 and prayed to get rid of the lycanthropy 06:48 sweet 06:48 get yourself some pets from it? 07:05 K2-webirc, 6 at one point, down to 2 now 07:06 one pet jackal ate a chameleon corpse, is now a black naga (lv9) and has started spitting at the MT priest 07:07 nice! 07:08 I'd better get my naga to go eat some more of the watch! 07:17 just got my first unicorn horn, I can feel the momentum shifting in my favour a little 07:57 heh 07:57 \o/ 08:26 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:48 so, a thing that crossed my mind when rearranging monster colors was: currently, all werecreatures' beast forms look the same as that beast based on color, but can still be distinguished by farlook. 08:49 Would it make sense to say that they look _so_ similar in beast form to the real deal that you can't tell them apart by farlook, and therefore the beast form doesn't deserve a unique color? 08:50 hm, I've gone completely the other way in my nao 343rc, and made all weres black in both human and beast form 08:51 Yes, currently I've gone the other way and stuck wererats on yellow, werejackals on red and werewolves on orange. 08:52 ah, so you can see whether the @ is a wolf, jackal or rat too, useful 08:52 Well, that isn't hidden from farlook either. 08:52 yes, but at first glance 08:52 * raisse kills a wererat 08:53 Right, I guess it just makes the d and r classes less sustainable if new monsters are added, but one of the assumptions in the proposal is that that won't happen, so I guess it works. 08:54 Currently, if a werefoo surrounds you with foo, you want to kill the werefoo. 08:54 And currently, you have to farlook everything around you until you find it. 08:55 Making them indistinguishable to farlook doesn't actually help this, since you can still just call the werefoo something and farlook around you until you see that name. 08:55 yes 08:56 even in the name of "realism" you'd probably know which one the werefoo was in a fight 08:56 EPI: fighting multiple monsters at once has a chance of discarding any names the player has called them. 08:57 Discarding, or shuffling from one monster to another? 08:59 The game picks one with equal chance. 09:01 some variants (dynahack eg) underscore werefoo 09:02 i think fiqhack does as well but i'm not sure 09:02 all nh4 maybe? 09:11 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 09:11 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 09:14 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:27 hothraxxa: isn't there a reason vanilla doesn't use underlines at all? 09:27 i'm not the one to ask 09:27 might be 09:55 Ask ais523 next time he's around maybe? He is kind of an expert on terminal support. 09:56 I think libuncursed autodetects whether the terminal supports underline and gracefully degrades by not sending the underline codes if they won't work. 10:31 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 10:55 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:55 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 11:00 [dnh] Yuring (Wiz Inc Fem Neu), 119 points, T:265, killed by a fox 11:02 -!- Grassy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12 !tell ais523 Do you know if there's a reason that vanilla doesn't use underlines? I doubt it's a terminal compatibility issue, and I'm wondering if there's a reason I shouldn't incorporate underlines into a proposal. 11:12 Will do, aosdict! 11:14 aosdict: What makes you doubt it's a terminal compatibility issue? 11:15 Well, color/bolding is also unsupported on some terminals, and vanilla has that. 11:17 didn't notice the nethack bolding 11:17 The devteam didn't declare that since non-color terminals are disadvantaged, color-supporting terminals should be handicapped by not having it either 11:18 bug_sniper: I have no idea if there's a terminal that supports color but not bolding; but half of the standard colors are implemented as bold shades of a different color. 11:19 Yellow is bold brown, brightblue is bold blue, etc 11:19 I thought they were just different colors 11:20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#Colors 11:20 bug_sniper: Originally, some terminals implemented bold in the same color but heavier font. Monochrome terminals, particularly. 11:21 But we're talking a LONG time ago here. 11:21 aosdict: Hmm, ok, fair about the color. Though color can be disabled, they might insist on that for underscore as well. 11:21 Dunno. 11:22 Well, sure, you can optionally handicap yourself, of course. 11:22 Hopefully, the reason for no underlines in vanilla is just that they haven't had a reason to use them. 11:22 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 11:23 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 11:23 YANI: new conduct: colorless 11:23 I just figure, coming from a group that doesn't want to use C89 function declarations because of compiler compatibility... I can readily imagine them going, "But that might not work with some ancient terminal none of us has ever actually seen or heard of, no can do." 11:23 or "colorblind" 11:24 I actually want to implement colorblind as an impairment (like permablind/permahallu/etc.) and have it describe things like a "green potion" as just "potion" (but "bubbly potion" as "bubbly potion"). 11:24 Well, I'm not asking whether the devteam can add underlines, I just want to know why vanilla does not use them 11:24 And have you not be able to distinguish e.g. green potions from red ones. 11:24 And such. 11:24 And of course, turning on color would be disabled? 11:24 Or just wouldn't work. 11:25 You could still change your options, because other games. 11:25 But in _that game_ you wouldn't get any color. 11:26 "w - a spellbook" 11:27 Actually, hmm, I wonder if some of that could be handled by making hcolor() check for colorblindness and return no color. 11:27 There'd still be more stuff needed, though. 11:31 I think you would at least need to add a bit to the objclass, right? 11:31 denoting whether this item's appearance is color-dependent or not 11:34 I think I'd probably also add a second string, to indicate its colorblind appearance. Not sure. 11:34 Colorblind tiles would be needed for every tileset. 11:35 Which is _relatively_ easy to do, compared to tiles in general, but would still be a pain because it's a lot of them. 11:36 (I mean, first you grayscale everything, and then you find all the classes of identical-when-colorblind items, such as all the colored potions, and substitute copies of one of the tiles for all the others. 11:36 ) 11:45 What have you done in the past when you needed tileset stuff? Like adding an elder dragon tile for example 12:00 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 12:01 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 12:04 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 12:04 -!- ais523 has quit [Changing host] 12:04 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 12:14 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 12:15 yani: a monster spell "illusion" that makes it or an allied monster appear as another monster until you attack it, or something 12:16 The illusion will select a nasty monster most of the time, depending on the caster's level. 12:17 potentially evil addendum: high-level casters will use this spell inversely, to make powerful monsters look like weak ones. 12:22 " 12:23 "You hit the grid bug with your bare hands. You feel yourself slowing down!" 12:23 exactly 12:23 What has a nasty passive attack that still matters in the late game? Spotted jellies? 12:25 disenchanters 12:25 ais523: Message from aosdict at 2017-09-18 11:12 EDT: Do you know if there's a reason that vanilla doesn't use underlines? I doubt it's a terminal compatibility issue, and I'm wondering if there's a reason I shouldn't incorporate underlines into a proposal. 12:25 aosdict: it's almost certainly for VGA-based platforms like DOS, which are incapable of rendering them 12:26 my counterargument there is that vanilla supports color, but not all platforms are capable of rendering colors 12:26 IMO it's fine to use underlines as long as you recognise that not all ports will be able to show them 12:26 ais523: Ah, yes, that would work. 12:26 and thus they aren't used for anything that's vital for gameplay 12:26 in NH4 I treat underlining as though it were a colour, i.e. underlined-red and red are different colours 12:27 Yes, the use here is for possibly differentiating monsters, which can be farlooked if your platform doesn't have it 12:27 That' 12:27 That's how NH4 uses it. 12:27 hm, I just realized that menucolors, at least, do support underlines 12:28 right; I clearly have no objection to this given that I did it myself 12:28 also menucolors aren't cross-platform 12:28 ah 12:28 the biggest problem with adding underlining in vanilla is simply that you need to change all the windowports to understand the underlining information 12:28 and there are a lot of them to change 12:28 we could do with a more extensible windowport API (in the sense that changing the API wouldn't break all the existing ports) 12:36 Or so that _adding minor features_ to the API wouldn't break existing ports, at least. 12:40 FIQ: following up on a yani from three days ago: perhaps rays should reflect erratically or not at all from a non-wall rock surface? 12:40 not sure if I like that 12:42 -!- raisse has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 12:44 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 12:47 I mean, it's rough rock. I don't see any particular reason why they should reflect. 12:53 Because they cannot harm the stone? 12:54 I guess there are two questions here: a) how smooth is the "solid rock" terrain type, b) do reflecting spells obey the same rules as reflecting light or reflecting sound 12:54 (or things like reflecting jets of water) 12:54 ais523: I thought rays was supposed to work like lasers 12:54 i.e. light 12:54 that makes sense for some of them 12:54 but not others 12:55 e.g. cold doesn't obey the same rules as light in real life at all 12:55 but it acts like a ray in nethack 12:55 cold is generally not something that is sent as a stream in a single direction without dissipation 12:55 indeed 12:56 Then there's the "cone of cold" spell, which is actually a ray and not a cone. 12:56 arguably, both fire and cold should work as a cone 12:56 being dissipated slightly over the distance in a wider cone 12:56 I think some of them were implemented as rays simply because rays had already been implemented. 12:56 I can only think of two ways to do that in real life: a) use some sort of liquid or other physical object to hold the cold and send that as a stream; b) have a very cold object that cools in all directions around it, then use heat rays to heat all the directions except the one you want 12:56 *cough*ninrl*cough* 12:57 hothraxxa: yeah I was going to bring that up 12:57 but then again 12:57 the spell is literally called "CONE of cold" 12:57 ^ 12:57 It's not the lack of realism that bothers me. 12:57 you could rename it to frost b olt 12:57 *frost bolt 12:57 so the further away, the more that should be effected? 12:57 if you wanted to 12:57 that's what ADOM calls the equavilent :P 12:57 hothraxxa: But with less damage, yes. 12:57 (alongside fire bolt) 12:58 and then there's the inverse-square law... 12:58 Yes. And thus the damage peters out as the range increases. 12:58 yeah i type too slowly 13:02 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 13:04 [4k] Zappi (philbo) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 14040 points, T:5408, killed by a dagger 13:25 -!- ais523 has quit [] 13:25 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 13:46 -!- K2-webirc has left #hardfought 14:01 -!- oh6 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:01 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 14:13 [4k] Zappi (philbo) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 1755 points, T:725, killed by a gecko 14:32 [4k] Zappi (philbo) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 6618 points, T:2493, killed by a kitten, while fainted from lack of food 14:39 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:51 [4k] Zappi (philbo) (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 3570 points, T:2236, killed by a kitten 14:56 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 14:56 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 15:04 -!- Webmant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:02 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:02 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 16:02 !tell ais523 saw your post on /r/nethack concerning the /dev/null/nethack tourney. we're working on a tribute of sorts and it's already looking promising. let me know if you're interested in helping out 16:02 Will do, K2! 16:02 Beholder: hi 16:02 ais523: Message from K2 at 2017-09-18 16:02 EDT: saw your post on /r/nethack concerning the /dev/null/nethack tourney. we're working on a tribute of sorts and it's already looking promising. let me know if you're interested in helping out 16:02 ;) 16:03 K2: yes, I'm interested 16:03 I saw something from Mandevil 16:03 great 16:03 but don't know the details 16:03 I have a standing offer to help krystal with /dev/null/nethack code, though, so I guess it transfers to other people too 16:03 so several months ago Tangles started porting the /dev/null/nethack code over to 3.6.0 16:03 it works 16:03 I would prefer it if we could somehow get krystal to call the new tournament an official /dev/null/nethack (so that it maintains its unbroken streak) but it's OK if we can't 16:04 all the challenges, etc 16:04 except KOL, obviously? 16:04 correct 16:04 what was KOL anyway? 16:04 I don't think it was ever enabled when I was around 16:04 I asked krystal directly via twitter if he'd share all the source code or if he wanted it all to retire. his intent was the latter 16:05 so we'll honor that 16:05 FIQ: kingdom of loathing is a browser-based MMORPG (one that I personally have a lot of issues with, although I played it for the tournament) 16:05 it has an in-game PvP system, also you can get tatoos in-game for collecting certain sets of items 16:05 but what we're proposing is to run a one time only tribute/farewell tourney of the /dev/null/nethack code on the 3.6.0 base 16:05 pay2win garbage? 16:05 it also has a dungeon inspired by NetHack 16:05 ah 16:05 collecting all the NetHack-themed armour lets you get an Elbereth tattoo 16:06 and to win the KOL challenge, you had to set the Elbereth tattoo on your profile and then beat a krystal-owned account called "The Wizard of Yendor" in PvP 16:06 changes to KOL broke the bot behind the account, though, and it never got fixed 16:06 ahh 16:06 the /dev/null 3.6.0 code is already up on running on hardfought, we've been testing it since yesterday 16:07 about to start on the web portion 16:07 K2: did you readd the lava bug? 16:07 will need to ask Tangles about that one 16:07 also it isn't quite pay2win garbage, because it's mostly a single-player experience and you can viably win it without paying money, but there's a lot of paid content (all of which is indirectly accessible via unpaid means but it takes ages) and any serious competitiveness (for speedruns, etc.) requires quite a lot of expenditure 16:08 it also has severe balance problems, and things like content that becomes permanently unavailable, etc. 16:08 ah 16:08 well, lost forever isn't exactly unique to KOL 16:09 right 16:09 but it makes the game rather unfun if you're a completionist 16:09 right 16:10 "I actually know what this bug entails. I don't know how to do it but I know that the first step is to start sinking in lava and then you play with your items (I don't know which ones and how) and the result is the turn counter permanently stops. This is not as useful as it sounds since it can break the game and possibly segmentation fault. Also I have forgotten where I got this info. So sorry for being 16:10 vague. -- Shikaku 20:55, 23 November 2016" 16:10 heh 16:10 ;) 16:10 ais523: so that's where we're at right now 16:10 FIQ: being able to permanently stop the turn counter would be huge news for the TAS if true 16:11 I also don't believe there's any way to do it, but if there is, I'd like to know about it 16:11 ais523: when I mentioned the lava bug, it made me interested in that bizarre report 16:11 (I would be even more surprised if it didn't permanently stop monsters moving too) 16:11 and I found ^ 16:11 the "Escaping lava might leave hero outside of time" bug 16:14 FIQ: oh, right, I just decided to check the devteam internal repo and managed to find the /actual/ explanation of that bug within a minute 16:14 I'm trying to figure out where it became public (if it did) atm so I can link you to it 16:14 what is the commit hash? 16:15 that should be sufficiently non-public that you can refer to it risk-free 16:15 FIQ: right, you wouldn't be able to match it to anything though 16:15 not the 3.6.0 public repo? 16:15 which has history back to 2002 16:15 FIQ: the internal repo at the time had a different directory structure 16:15 from the public history 16:15 so the hashes would be differet 16:15 *different 16:15 ah 16:16 perhaps a substring that can be grepped for? 16:16 the public repo is reconstructed from the internal one, with any private information removed (same gameplay content though) 16:16 FIQ: that's what I'm doing now :-) 16:16 ah 16:16 FIQ: is d302e6252be60cbb63ef4ce7de7dc446ae710e64 public? if so, that and cba99b52c38b212cd81b5f3e37bebfe0a88aaa7c 16:17 ais523: The commit _dates_ should be the same, and you can search through a git log for them. 16:17 jonadab: well I found them anyway, I think 16:17 former is public 16:17 they're on a public branch 16:17 latter is two commits later 16:17 and latter 16:17 But also, there are links to the public commits from the 3.4.3 bug list on the wiki. 16:18 fix #H260 - escaping lava let you stay there indefinitely 16:18 that's a boring fix 16:18 #H260, see commits d302e6... and especially cba99b..., plus commit 7a0842.... 16:18 s/fix/description/ 16:18 freezing the turn counter would be /really/ hard to do, internally 16:18 I liked the SC343-18 description much more :) 16:19 FIQ: anyway, I suspect Shikaku is simply lying, but if they aren't, I'm interested in any information they have 16:19 My notes say it has to do with timing issues when checks are run, e.g., removing fire resistance sources while in lava does not instakill you. 16:19 ais523: possibly a way to perform an action without increasing the turncounter 16:19 something that already happens atm in some cases (walking into a wall) 16:20 s/increasing the turncounter/taking time/ 16:20 FIQ: I know a few of those 16:20 ais523: is the lava bug that spoteffects is running for zero-turn actions? 16:21 I never investigated it fully 16:21 but if so, it has other effects, lava only being the most obvious one 16:21 for example, you can be in vampire form over water, and repeatedly apply and cancel a cross-class quest artifact; eventually, you'll unpoly from the blast, fall into water, and crawl out onto an adjacent square 16:21 and that can be a teleport trap 16:21 FIQ: the original famous "lava time bug" is that zero-time actions increase your "time spent in lava" counter 16:21 so you can dissolve while checking your inventory 16:21 ahh 16:21 I thought it was tied to spoteffects 16:21 the phrase "lava time bug" is often used to describe anything else that has similar properties 16:22 like grues in /dev/null/nethack 16:22 right 16:22 I figured grues was implemented simply by also hijacking spoteffects 16:22 but I guess not then 16:23 ais523: I am reading a thread here 16:24 and Ray is alluding to the same thing as the comment pasted above 16:24 nah, it's purely some misplaced code in moveloop() 16:24 how can I link a google groups post in raw format 16:25 whatever 16:25 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/AYiPgjvkC18/0C7ZLl0aD-wJ 16:25 FIQ: There are two major lava bugs. 16:26 C343-231 is the other. 16:26 jonadab: yeah but the post I linked by Ray implies that the wiki comment I pasted above can actually be true 16:26 notably, this part 16:26 (There are also a bunch of minor ones, some of which were not known to the Usenet/IRC community until the leak.) 16:26 The code that is supposed to guarantee at least one or two commands 16:27 to escape lava regardless of player speed, effectively stops time. 16:27 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 16:28 C343-231 is the one where sinking is checked once per player input (rather than per game turn), meaning things like checking inventory can kill you. 16:28 "Time is distorted while sinking into lava." 16:28 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 16:28 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 16:28 commit 58a9bc... 16:56 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 17:04 [nd] Grasshopper (Hea Gno Mal Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:14280 17:19 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 17:20 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 17:20 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 17:26 [nh] oddrun1 (Bar Hum Mal Neu), 3457 points, T:2080, killed by a soldier ant 17:50 [nh] oddrun1 (Rog Hum Mal Cha), 608 points, T:1316, killed by a wererat, while helpless 18:20 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:21 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35 !role 18:35 Menche: sporkhack priest 18:55 YANI: incorporate SLASH'EM whetstones with some additional effects: cursed whetstones either stick to your hand or have a chance of breaking the weapon, blessed whetstones will remove a curse from an edged weapon at the cost of its blessing, and rocks can be rubbed on them to make slingshot. 19:18 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 19:18 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 19:25 -!- Grassy has joined #hardfought 19:25 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grassy] by ChanServ 19:29 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:53 when your monk finds a spellbook of magic missile on dlvl 2... 20:15 K2: you mentioned cantrips previously. any you think would be good to add, assuming that someone has a plan to write a cantrip patch? 20:16 cantrips are level 0, and cost probably d3 Pw 20:19 hmm 20:19 the spell equiv of a magic whistle would be cool for starters 20:19 brb 20:27 That would significantly devalue actual magic missiles. 20:27 Err, whistles 20:27 What about a cantrip that causes 2-3 turns of conflict? 20:28 Or is that OP for the Pw price? 20:29 [nd] Menche (Pri Elf Mal Cha), 859 points, T:2041, killed by a giant ant, while fainted from lack of food 20:29 ow! 20:29 No, those are great ideas for actual spells, though, keep 'em coming! 20:30 Stupid Patch Idea: when hallucination, a magic whistle sometimes hits your pet with a magic missile instead 20:30 new plan: ask people for cool cantrips, then code them as full spells 20:31 Alright, then, a cantrip that increases the odds of monsters you kill in the next few turns dropping a corpse (if they're a monster that normally can). 20:31 what's a cantrip 20:31 a trip to the can 20:32 It's a short little rhyme or something that you say, usually in a dead language, that is purported to be lucky or have some magical effect. 20:32 But usually nothing really concrete. 20:32 uh 20:32 so, a weak spell? 20:32 It's like an old-wives-tale level folklore. 20:32 Kind of, yes. 20:33 of course in nethack magic is real 20:33 Or in some cases a prayer, but to no god in particular or not a very powerful/reliable one. 20:33 would it be something any role can use? 20:33 Magic is real, but even in NetHack, I think cantrips should be something where it's hard to say how well it works without code diving. 20:34 would it involve typing in an actual rhyme 20:34 #say 20:34 have scrolls sometimes tell you a phrase when read 20:35 Not sure how aosdict was thinking of implementing it. 20:35 if you have hardcoded rhymes that get randomly matched to the cantrip effects, like scrolls are currently, you could ID them by brute force fairly easily 20:39 Menche: I'm not planning to implement anything, just collecting ideas, but an implementation would likely be the way it is in D&D, a level 0 spell that costs no components and has none or a weak limit to the amount of times you can do it in a short period 20:42 And it is a concrete effect. 20:42 Though it would be interesting, and perhaps balancing, if it were not. 20:59 aosdict: I'm guessing things that can easily be accomplished via backtracking and don't have much combat use, but it sucks to actually go back to do them, would make for good cantrips 20:59 but I can't make any of them make flavour sense 21:00 perhaps a spell for creating an empty chest 21:00 those things are useful for making stashes and a pain to drag around 21:00 a magical equivalent of a melee weapon could make a good cantrip, too 21:01 say, a spell that does d8+7 damage to an adjacent target 21:01 that's inferior to most actual late game melee weapons used by non-wizards, and although it's more powerful early Pw is a concern then 21:01 also, hmm, a cantrip for permanently making some sort of mark on a map square that's visible on the map, that would be nice 21:02 maybe it makes a trap that doesn't do anything 21:03 Some of these are pretty good ideas. 21:03 X marks the spot? 21:04 a xorn trap? 21:04 yes, there are potential issues with any cantrip, but we can deal with those later! 21:05 Hmm, how about a Word of Recall cantrip, takes effect after 3d5 turns or so, levelports you to the dungeon exit on DL1 (but fails if you have the Amulet, obviously). 21:05 jonadab: why that particular location? 21:05 it should teleport you to the xorn trap! 21:06 ais523: Because that's the closest analog to what Word of Recall does in other roguelikes, I guess. 21:06 oh, I see 21:06 But I'm open to other suggestions. 21:06 the D&D spell that it's based on is more similar to teleporting you to your stash 21:06 i.e. it teleports you back to your "home base" 21:06 Actually, one that takes you to Minetown, but only if you've already been there, would probably be more useful. 21:06 the Angband, Diablo, etc. version teleport you to the entrance because that's where the shops are 21:06 Ah, I see. 21:06 So yeah, Minetown. 21:06 so Minetown would be a good equivalent in NetHack 21:07 Or Minetown if you've been there, dungeon entrance otherwise, perhaps. 21:07 I mean, you don't really want a _cantrip_ that eliminates a good 30% of the cases where the EotA is invoked 21:07 What about a digging cantrip? 21:08 agh, no criticism! 21:08 aosdict: The cantrip would have a delay on it, so it could not be used as an emergency escape. 21:08 Whereas the Eye can. 21:09 Oh, see, I wasn't thinking of it that way, because I don't ever really use the Eye to escape. 21:09 If I have it, I _save_ its branchport ability for that exclusively. 21:09 Which means I don't use it much. But if I need it, it's there. 21:10 I find it very useful for going either to Minetown or Vlad's. 21:10 I've use the EotA more often to try to escape than I have to gone back to a stash 21:10 *used 21:10 I say "attempt to" because the one game where I used it heavily, I died due to accidentally trying to branchport to the branch I was currently in 21:10 But the effect of putting you at Mines' End means I don't like it as much for getting to Minetown, so I usually make a stash in the main dungeon 21:11 aosdict: You can solve that by never going below Minetown in the Mines :-) 21:12 one version of the TAS route involved going to the first level of the Mines only 21:12 so that branchport could get us as close to the dungeon entrance as possible 21:13 Hmm. In D&D 5e at least, word of recall is a 6th level spell. 21:14 Which implies the ability shouldn't be available as cheaply as a cantrip. 21:14 that's because it doesn't have the delay 21:14 which makes it one of the best escape moves in the game 21:14 aosdict: You start with scrolls of Word of Recall in one of the major roguelikes. Might be Angband. 21:14 Even with a delay, it seems like powerful magic. 21:14 Or might be DCSS, not sure. 21:14 ais523: what if we reduced tedium of stash management+backtracking by adding portals to places 21:15 The delay is long enough that you can't use it to get out of danger quickly. 21:15 I guess it would nerf branchport 21:15 one nethack variant has cursed scrolls of teleportation named Word of Recall. unnethack? 21:15 FIQ: magic chest 21:15 jonadab: all teleports work like that in DCSS 21:15 but there isn't a recall specifically 21:15 Ok, must be thinking of Angband. 21:15 jonadab: Wont help you price ID and stuff though 21:15 yes, Angband is known for it 21:15 I very much like ais523's idea of creating an empty chest, though it would need to be made non-farmable 21:15 FIQ: Oh, true. 21:15 Diablo is the other game which has a similar very well-known effect (although IIRC it's called Town Portal there) 21:15 That is a perfect cantrip-level thing to do. 21:16 Well, the fact that it's empty automatically means the only thing you could farm it for would be non-magical-tool polyfodder. 21:16 Unless you want to farm for chest traps, I guess. 21:17 * jonadab tries to imagine a reason to do that, fails. 21:17 I didn't even think of chest traps :-D 21:17 maybe it's always untrapped once you have matter at skilled? 21:17 I mean, if you're creating the chest, it probably comes untrapped. 21:17 hm 21:17 (I'm assuming you can't farm the spell for matter skill point progress) 21:17 king monsters should spawn with an entourage of monsters 21:18 a gnome king should spawn with a few lords, a wiz and some gnomes for example 21:18 ais523: that's a good point about cantrips, yes, as level 0 spells it seems like they shouldn't train anything. 21:18 and they should be treated as the king's pets 21:18 the kings should also potentially spawn with blessed eucalyptus or, rarely, a magic whistle 21:20 jonadab: you know the ais gehennom generator? 21:20 I'm not sure if it's well designed 21:20 from a balance POV 21:20 less open areas are *easier* to deal with 21:20 from a difficulty POV 21:21 this has been an ongoing debate in #nethack4 21:21 so the hardest levels is actually the first few 21:21 oh? I don't remember this at all 21:21 FIQ: It would be easy to flip the things upside down. 21:21 maybe this was before my time 21:21 But we can't decide which way si better. 21:21 I guess I care more about the flavour and the variety progression through the game than trying to get the difficulty curve correct via the map generator 21:21 ais523: map gen shouldn't be the main thing to decide difficulty, no 21:22 also I believe deep gehennom to be more open than mid gehennom 21:22 FIQ: The question is, does the level arrangement difficulty matter more when exploring Gehennom initially, when you are in no hurry and can retreat any time things get dicey, or on the way back up with the Amulet later? 21:22 with the generator 21:22 And I can't decide which is better. 21:22 ais523: it gets more closed over time 21:23 FIQ: yes, but IIRC it becomes more open again near the very bottom 21:23 from basically a bigroom with more "bumpy" walls 21:23 FIQ: Up to a point, but near the bottom the large number of corridors tends to open it a bit. 21:23 to very complex and closed terrain 21:23 very low parameters clearly give you bigrooms, though 21:23 maybe the correct fix is just to cut out the bigroom section? 21:23 Yeah, get gets more and more closed until like the last 5-10%. 21:24 ais523: or maybe the opposite? 21:24 make "bigrooms" as the last few levels 21:24 ais523: Starting at a different point in the progression would also be easy. 21:24 and ramp up the spawn rate 21:24 FIQ: Right, flipping the whole thing upside down is easy. 21:24 or even reordering it 21:24 But then on the ascension run you go through it right away. 21:24 well I was referring to like 21:24 20-80% like how it is now 21:24 Ah. 21:24 then for the last 3 levels or so 21:24 jonadab: the very bottom few levels are apparently immune to mysterious force 21:24 do 0-10% 21:24 presumably so that you don't get sent below the Sanctum 21:25 I'd check 21:25 EPI: you can get sent below the Sanctum, by the mysterious force. Those levels are diggable-rock-embedded-in-nondiggable-rock mazes. 21:25 but fh doesn't have the MF anymore :P 21:25 In Fourk, the Mysterious Force blocks teleport control but has no impact on going up stairs. 21:26 teleportitis 21:26 FIQ: I think it blocks the random triggering of that too. 21:26 I remember the pain in dealing with teleportitis in 4k's ammyrun 21:26 blocking teleport control is arguably more annoying. 21:26 Or else it's on my TODO list. 21:26 aosdict: exactly 21:27 it was painful 21:27 jonadab: but the Evil Variant has one of those in the main dungeon :-P 21:27 ais523: Yes, but couldn't there be some below the Sanctum as well? Possibly with invisible embedded nasty traps? 21:27 Which block the path, of course. 21:27 EPI: ^ 21:28 what does a nasty trap do? summon nasties? 21:28 make it impossible to open your inventory and also screw up screen redraws? 21:28 It's a general category of traps in slex. 21:28 probably referring to the slex concept 21:28 yeah 21:28 which do that 21:28 THey mostly mess with the UI in various egregious ways. 21:28 there are traps doing what ais523 describes 21:29 (because of course there is) 21:29 possibly not that exactly, but it's in the general category of things slex traps do 21:29 I think there's one that makes the game a lipogram, one that prevents you from using certain keys, one that causes mojibake in the map, etc. 21:29 if there isn't a trap that does that, it's only because I combined two effects that only exist on different traps 21:29 Also, the ones that Amy calls "nasty traps" don't get revealed when triggered. 21:30 ais523: there is a trap called yellow spell trap 21:30 jonadab: I was planning to put a trap in the Evil Variant that rot13ed the messages, map and also the controls 21:30 it makes spells harder to cast and breaks redrawing 21:30 but I'd be shocked if slex didn't have one of those already 21:30 there's also a trap called inventory loss trap 21:30 ais523: Yes, that's the kind of thing. 21:30 it makes it impossible to open the inventory 21:30 or at least, I'd be shocked if it didn't end up in Slex as soon as Amy finds out 21:30 FIQ: What about the inventory sidebar in the curses UI? 21:30 haha 21:31 jonadab: not sure how slex handles it 21:31 but amy claimed she did add the effects of the traps 21:31 to curses 21:31 including sidebar 21:31 Ah. 21:31 maybe it just prints an "error" on sidebar 21:31 if attempted 21:32 EPI: a trap that causes the game to randomly switch between IBMGraphics, DECGraphics, curses, and none of the above, every few turns. 21:32 the game can't switch windowport while running 21:32 jonadab: curses is normally decgraphics, though 21:32 in terms of the way it writes 21:32 Also, EPI: a trap that causes the output to be in UTF-EBCDIC. 21:32 ais523: curses uses "cursesgraphics" 21:32 although there are two different ways to do decgraphics, NetHack can pick either depending on $TERM, and neither is 100% reliable on its own 21:33 which has line drawing but isn't "true" decgraphics 21:33 water is still } rather than diamonds, etc 21:33 FIQ: yes, but curses (the nethack interface) uses curses (the rendering library) which uses DECgraphics to do the rendering 21:33 ah you mean like that 21:33 FIQ: If water is diamonds, your terminal doesn't support DECGraphics correctly. 21:33 (Which would not be surprising.) 21:33 !role 21:33 if unicode is unavailable 21:34 no? 21:34 decgraphics generally works best for me 21:34 !tea 21:34 * Beholder tosses jonadab a mug of black tea, conjured by TheresaMayBot at 52 degrees Celsius. 21:34 !race 21:34 FIQ: sporkhack human 21:34 UTF8 is the One True encoding 21:34 !role 21:34 FIQ: grunt monk 21:34 !role 21:34 Menche: fiqhack samurai 21:34 MTF has a fh sam on standby that he was twitch streaming a while back 21:34 was interesting to follow 21:35 jonadab: huh? the DECgraphics character set has a diamond in, as alternate backquote, and I believe that's what NetHack uses for water, intentionally 21:35 are you telling me it's trying to use something else but somehow you get a diamond anyway? 21:36 the #dcss bot has a !next command 21:37 it randomly decides the next role+race for you to ascend 21:37 I could be wrong, but I thought DECGraphics and IBMGraphics were supposed to look quite similar, originally; but modern systems don't support all the same characters, so neither ends up looking like originally intended, quite. 21:37 jonadab: not modern systems, it's the sets themselves 21:37 and will not change that until you win one, or invoke !nextcheat (which re-rolls) 21:37 :P 21:37 DECgraphics doesn't have an approximately-equals symbol in it 21:37 so I'm assuming the developers used the diamond symbol instead 21:38 it works reasonably for single pool tiles 21:38 (meanwhile, although codepage 437 does have a diamond symbol in it, it's in a control characters region which is very hard to render reliably on most non-VGA systems) 21:38 a bit awkward for moats, but good enough (certainly better than }) 21:38 ais523: the character set DECgraphics was originally intended for _probably_ no longer exists on any platform. 21:39 I'm almost sure it was meant for PDP or somesuch. 21:39 jonadab: it's the VT100 alternate character set, it's implemented in basically all terminals nowadays 21:39 ais523: isn't ~ a better approximation 21:39 or does dec not have that eithr? 21:39 aosdict: Oh? 21:39 Hmm. 21:39 FIQ: ~ is worm tail 21:39 yes, brown ~ 21:39 not blue 21:39 :P 21:40 doors and spellbooks both use + 21:40 so there is predecent for sharing 21:40 jonadab: the way that an actual VT100 works is that you can switch between a number of character sets; mostly these are language character sets like British English and American English 21:40 And yes, blue ~ would be quite reasonable for water, if it existed in the charset in question. 21:40 It likely didn't. 21:40 jonadab: a VT100 uses ASCII as one of its character sets 21:40 actual ASCII 21:40 jonadab: it clearly did 21:40 long wor tail 21:40 *worm 21:41 FIQ: Oh, hmm, maybe. 21:41 isn't ~ in ascii even? 21:41 It is. 21:41 home dir 21:41 another of the character sets it uses is called the "alternate character set" which is ASCII except that the lowercase letters (and other characters whose codes start with 6 or 7 in hexadecimal) are replaced by graphical characters 21:41 But ASCII wasn't universal until at _least_ the eighties. 21:41 there are various other optional character sets, mostly for other languages, sort-of like DOS codepages 21:41 wasn't ebdic used before 21:42 jonadab: why do you think ASCII caught on? 21:42 the VT100 using it would have done a lot to popularise it 21:42 ais523: Partly because of DOS. 21:42 But VT100 could've also been relevant. 21:42 also, EBCDIC was mostly an IBM thing 21:42 just IBM was a really big company 21:42 EBCDIC was mostly IBM mainframes, yes. 21:42 So it was doomed. 21:42 Because microcomputers took over entirely. 21:42 much like Windows-1252 is commonly used nowadays even though it's a Microsoft-specific character set 21:43 Eh, everything supports UTF-8 now. 21:43 putty ) 21:43 :) 21:43 FIQ: PuTTY supports UTF-8. 21:43 not everything supports UTF-8 by default 21:44 most things can be configured to understand it, but often at the cost of losing their ability to understand anything else 21:44 Not everything _uses_ UTF-8 _by default_, true. 21:44 I'm still seing unicode weirdness on websites from time to time 21:44 PuTTY doesn't, because it hasn't been really actively maintained since the era when a lot of stuff still didn't speak Unicode. 21:45 FIQ: well, there is no reliable way to distinguish UTF-8 from Windows-1252/Latin-1/etc. if it actually is UTF-8 21:45 unless the page happens to declare the encoding explicitly, which people don't do nearly as often as they should 21:45 also, UTF-8 is a good (but not perfect) transmission format, but it really sucks as an internal use format (that said, UTF-16 is worse) 21:47 one thing that disappoints me about UTF-8 is that overlong encodings exist 21:48 just start each next-length-up of encoding where the previous one ends 21:48 (that said, it did lead to Java's neat trick of the "UTF-8 NUL" where it encodes NUL using two bytes so that it looks different from the string terminator) 21:49 hm 21:50 I'm planning to steal that for libuncursed 2 even though I don't see why the user would want to pass libuncursed a literal NUL anyway 21:55 ais523: Sure, for internal use within a program in memory, I can see arguments for e.g. UTF-32. 22:02 utf8 nul sounds like a hack 22:02 the bad kind of hack 22:32 -!- Grassy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:52 ! role 22:52 yuring: nethack4 ranger 22:53 ! race 22:53 yuring: sporkhack orc