00:08 poor the tourist 00:13 !lastgame 00:13 Jonathanhanes: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/T/TheTourist/dynahack/dumplog/2017-09-16%2023_59_36%2C%20The%20Tourist-Tou-Hum-Mal-Neu%2C%20died.txt 00:13 yah death rays are no fun 00:31 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 00:31 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 00:33 Hmm... so just catching up, I see devnull is no more. 00:36 It makes me sad that some of the reasons cited for this are problems which have already been solved. 00:40 but anyway, I guess he just doesn't want to let go and let someone else carry it forward. It's a shame to end so many years of tradition, but it's also a good opportunity for a fresh start. 00:48 On creating system accounts for players - probably not the way you'd build it today, but let's not judge something that was developed nearly 20 years ago by today's standards :) 00:51 for anyone interested, the "shell" on those accounts was set to a perl script that was just a wrapper for nethack, plus a couple of extra things like checking if the player was eligible to play zapm, and some other stuff like very rudimentary session recording. 00:52 any attempt to spawn a shell would just spawn a nested instance of this script. 00:53 this is why "ttyrec" did not work (because it relies on spawning the sub-process in a shell). I worked around this by setting the SHELL environment variable when calling ttyrec, but this was probably insecure as it would have changed it for the nethack process as well. 00:54 A small part of me is relieved I now won't need to have any part in maintaining this code. 01:00 but I am still sad. 02:17 -!- greqrg_ has quit [Quit: Disconnected] 02:29 What do you want to call the little dog called ^^ l^T^^F^>^¿? 02:33 I'm sure it's a nice name, but I have such trouble pronouncing it when I am waiting on the stairs calling him. 03:11 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:20 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 03:49 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 03:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 03:56 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 9758 points, T:7302, killed by an energy vortex 04:15 -!- Menche_ has joined #hardfought 04:17 -!- Menche has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:31 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 6628 points, T:5395, killed by a giant zombie 04:34 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 04:52 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 06:12 morning! 06:16 good morning K2! 06:17 o/ 06:17 hi elenmirie! 06:30 [nh4] Hemingway (Tangles) (Tou Hum Mal Neu), 34371 points, T:2356, killed by a dwarf lord 06:31 [fh] Soura (AnronSal) (Hea Hum Fem Neu), 8492 points, T:268, escaped 06:32 Hi K2 06:32 heya Tangles 06:33 devnull :( 06:33 yeah 06:34 so 06:34 i had a couple ideas 06:35 betting you might as well 06:44 I haven't really thought too much on it yet, but keen to hear yours! 06:47 well 06:47 i think it would be neat to develop our own tournament 06:48 it should not be a carbon copy of dev/null 06:48 i think we can come up wth something unique 06:48 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 11799 points, T:7216, killed by a black unicorn 06:48 ooh, do you think there's time this year? 06:49 and getting some community feedback (folks from here) would help 06:49 elenmirie: prob not 06:49 perhaps, i dont know 06:49 I would tend to think not, but then I'm a cautious sort 06:49 concerning this, i'd err on the side of caution also 06:49 I don't think we can have our own tournament running by this November. 06:50 ^^ 06:50 not if you want to do it right, that's for sure 06:50 so 06:50 ... 06:50 we all know i cant code 06:51 heh 06:51 But I like the idea (I just think we should plan for November 2018) 06:51 same here 06:51 ^ that 06:51 but does that mean nothing for 2017? 06:52 Tangles, you'd most likely wind up doing the bulk of the work. we could do all of this under Hardfought, but if you want to branch out on your own and create something that's completely separate, i'd definitely help 06:53 fewdifferent ways we could set up the foundation as it were 06:53 elenmirie: most likely yeah 06:53 aw :( 06:53 krystal should have annouced retirement sooner 06:53 and not 6 weeks out 06:54 it would be fun to run "one last" devnull on 360, if that's possible 06:54 given krystal's last statement, that's not what he wants to see 06:57 and i'm inclined to honor that 06:58 :/ 06:58 Yeah I'm kind of surprised and disappointed that he just wants to bury the whole thing. 06:58 me too 06:58 given that he hasn't responded to anyone, I'm not sure I agree that we have to do what he wants 06:58 but i can also understand of he doesnt want anybody else doing his thing 06:58 but given the amount of work he's put into it over the years, we probably should respect his wishes. 06:59 elenmirie: he responded 06:59 oh, did he? 06:59 yup 06:59 I didn't know that 06:59 to you? 06:59 yeah directly, on twitter 06:59 its all on that same tweet thread 06:59 oh, I'll have to go find it 06:59 * elenmirie doesn't like twitter 06:59 i dont either heh 06:59 likewise. 07:00 what are your thoughts Tangles? 07:00 what would you like to do in regards to hosting and where the tournamant lives? 07:02 oh I see the dialog now. Yes, I see what you guys mean. 07:02 :( 07:05 I kind of get that he doesn't want to share the code for the website, it's probably old, messy, contains hardcoded passwords, and god knows what, but just giving his blessing for someone to run with the idea would not have cost him anything. Anyway, I guess he has his reasons. 07:06 Moving forward... we need to think about the things we liked about devnull, and the things we didn't. 07:07 the renegade in me says... run it this year and call it not-devnull 07:07 lol 07:07 heh 07:09 i dont think you can look at the list of trophies and events on the nethack devnull site anymore 07:09 so the things that were good - the distributed multi-server model (the choice between 250ms and 350ms of lag :P) 07:09 No That site always disappears a few weeks after the tournament ends. 07:09 at least the wiki has it all 07:10 things I like: the variety of trophies (so you can pick your goal) 07:10 the challenges and their tributes to classic games 07:10 other good things - unique things that you don't get playing nethack at other times (i.e. the challenges). 07:11 elenmirie: yes that. 07:11 things I don't like: the inabiity to keep up with latest releases/patches 07:11 less opportunity for team coordination than junethack 07:12 the bizarro scoring systemm 07:12 Yeah that needs a rewrite. 07:12 "streaks" across multiple servers. 07:12 yeah 07:13 I do like the "with bells on" distinction though 07:14 just if you can only get it honestly that would be better 07:14 yeah 07:15 side note: ZAPM could be hosted as its own variant? a legacy tribute to the /dev/null/nethack tournament? 07:15 hehe, that would be fun 07:15 the code is a gawdawful mess though 07:16 it's... less than finished 07:17 ;) 07:17 i always liked the classic game within a game bit 07:17 a chess challenge would be wicked cool 07:18 with orcs and elves as chess pieces? 07:18 ^^ 07:18 so... suppose we put up Nethack 3.6.0 "Challenge Edition" on hardfought just for the month of November this year, modified the challene code slightly so it writes extra fields to the xlogfile (to remove all the server-side dependencies on separate files), and then we did some scripting against the xlogfile to generate a rudimentary scoreboard. 07:19 oooh 07:19 a good idea 07:19 kind of like a farewell nod to /dev/null 07:19 yeah/ 07:20 a one time only event this nov only eh? 07:20 call it the "/dev/null tribute challenge" or something. 07:20 Yeah 07:20 yeah 07:20 ok 07:20 cool! 07:21 i'm pretty sure i know exactly how to spin it publically 07:21 I reckon we could put that together in 6 weeks. krystal won't be too mad at us, and then we get 11 months afterwards to develop something new for next year. 07:21 yes, sounds perfect 07:21 agreed. i think that's fair 07:22 we're not taking over /dev/null, we're just doing a tribute tourney 07:22 yes, to fill the gap before something else is developed 07:22 give ppl one last chance to give it a go 07:23 not everyone will want to play it. but that's ok 07:23 we can do the multi server bit 07:24 ask server admins if they want to host the code, they make their xlogfile public facing 07:24 or it can just be us 07:25 whichever 07:25 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 07:25 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 07:27 Tangles: which challenges work under your 3.6.0 port? 07:28 I think we tested all of them that worked in devnull 07:30 neat 07:31 that is, all but the KoL one that's been broken forever 07:31 Tangles: i can get the tribute variant up later tonight if you like, we can start testing and tweaking within 24 hrs 07:32 * K2 is still at drill at the moment 07:35 alright i gotta go, will be back soon 07:35 see ya 07:40 sorry, was doing domestics.... single server is a simpler model, but if we get it working early we can look at distributing it if the other admins are keen. 07:42 K2: All of the challenges work in 3.6.0, but they depend on things in the underlying system that won't be there if we run it on dgl, so I'll need to do a bit of work to make it more self-contained. 07:43 The zapm challenge... Hmm.. I have some half-ideas on how to make that work. 07:43 Yep. it's doable. Leave it with me :) 07:43 :) 07:44 Oh yeah the KoL challenge. That was broken way before I ever knew about devnull. I'm not counting that one. 07:50 iirc it was something changed in KoL that broke it... so I wouldn't bother. it wouldn't be a devnull tribute if that was working :D 08:15 Tangles: FWIW, when I argued against setting up shell accounts on the server, I was talking about how things should be set up going forward. The past is the past, but someone was expressing "I like the way it does this," and I was arguing that we nonetheless likely shouldn't do it that way, if we reimplement, etc. 08:20 jonadab: Yeah I saw that discussion with Menche. Agree 100%. There are better ways to do it now, though there probably were not then. 08:22 Oh, sure, twenty years ago the world was different. And frankly, expectations of what random people on the internet were like were different (though they were just starting to change, as commercial ISPs began to appear.) 08:27 Tangles: ok 08:36 K2: if you do your own tournament, it will certainly be different from devnull anyway. so even if you copy everything from trophies to clan and challenges, it would IMO be different enough to honor krystal's intention 08:37 as IMHO his intention was to retire devnull as it is. if you run your own tournament, you are on a different page 08:38 junethack started out as not-devnull and the first installation just addressed what was conceived as the most glaring shortcomings of devnull, that is, not using public servers and the broken clan system 08:39 and no variants 08:39 ah ok 08:39 moving forward after this november, i'd personally want it to be different, at least challenges wise 08:39 everything else followed from there. we couldn't do challenges, because nothing from us would run on the public servers and we had to rely on xlogfiles. 08:39 but i know you can only deviate so much 08:40 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40 yeah. some challenges are cool. but I really don't like the waldo one and even the digdug is a bit of nuisance 08:41 the grue one always pissed me off heheh 08:41 but it does fit into nethack perfectly. hmm, a pokemon challenge ("catch em all!") could also be a good fit 08:42 hey hey 08:42 heh thats a good one 08:42 bhaak: I think krystal mentioned last year that he had a pokemon challenge in the works but no time to finish it. 08:42 i'd like to see a chess challenge 08:43 aka battle chess 08:43 gelcube as a rook, it eats the pieces it captures (example) 08:43 Yeah... I feel like chess would be diabolically hard to implement inside nethack. 08:43 it would 08:44 another thing I liked was that all the challenges were entirely optional, and if you were sure you didn't want to do one you could turn it off for the whole tournament. 08:44 but it would be cool 08:44 i am contemplating how much cpu the chess engine would want to consume while thinking of moves 08:44 times how ever many players were playing at once 08:45 elenmirie: yeah that was a big deal imo 08:45 you werent forced into any challenge 08:45 yes, that 08:45 you could just play regularly if you wanted to 08:47 a minesweeper one could also work well 08:47 fort ludios is already mini minesweeper 08:47 heh, how about snake? using a longworm of course 08:48 tetris? 08:48 that would be difficult 08:48 what would be winning condition for snake? 08:48 I dunno. maybe getting to something before the snake collided with itself 08:49 oh snap... hangman, and if you dont solve the word, the letters you did guess come alive and attack you 08:49 oh, I like that one! 08:49 or a small crossword puzzle 08:49 same outcome 08:49 L... no wait! 08:49 lol 08:54 i have an idea 08:58 share? 08:58 how about develop some type of puzzle where you have to push objects around to fill in holes so you can get past the level you're on to the next... 08:58 :D 08:58 lol 08:58 now that's just silly 08:59 yeah... you're right 09:00 I mean.... what's that got to do with nethack? 09:27 well. maybe make it so that solving that puzzle in any other way than pushing the boulders will punish the player 09:28 that's a fuckery players expect from nethack 09:54 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 09:54 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 10:06 * raisse is reading backscroll about the tribute challenge tournament 10:06 sounds perfect to me 10:32 -!- hothraxxa has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:51 ok nethack 3.6.0 "devnull edition" is running under dgamelaunch.\ 10:52 K2: let me tidy up and push the branch, then you can start testing :) 10:57 chess would be cool but probably quite annoying to get right 10:58 you might not even have to make an AI that decides anything beyond just taking random moves 10:59 so you have to know the rules of chess and basic strategy in order to win quickly, but it's difficult to lose 10:59 Tangles: awesome 10:59 i will get it going tonight (my time) 11:01 ok I have to get to bed. 11:01 really brief instructions: 11:02 cd /home/build 11:02 git clone https://github.com/NHTangles/NetHack36 nh36_devnull\ 11:03 (minus backslash - that's my typo) 11:03 cd nh36_devnull/ 11:04 git checkout devnull_hdf 11:04 make all 11:04 sudo ./install_to_chroot.sh 11:05 then make a dgl entry for it, and it should all just work. 11:06 I kept the challenge file structure the same, but it all gets written to /dgldir/devnull/challenge... seems to work. 11:07 Anyway, good night. 11:08 ok sounds good 11:08 thx Tangles and gnite! 11:22 woo, fast work. 11:44 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 12:31 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 7498 points, T:4807, killed by a leocrotta 12:34 -!- greqrg has joined #hardfought 12:40 speaking of fast work... leocrottas are pretty fast 12:41 heh 12:41 plus it didn't fall asleep when I asked it to. 12:56 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:31 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:31 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 14:07 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:17 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 12053 points, T:7361, killed by a giant mimic 14:56 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 70 points, T:272, killed by a wand 15:21 -!- hothraxxa has joined #hardfought 15:21 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v hothraxxa] by ChanServ 15:30 -!- aos is now known as aosdict 15:34 YANI: you can #loot trees to get either less fruit than by kicking or one fruit at a time, with the benefit being that the chance of getting bees is much reduced. 15:34 aosdict: Message from Grasshopper at 2017-09-13 21:28 EDT: I don't know what a "widemaze" level is, but if it is what I guess then probably about the same as other maze types for valid levels 15:43 aosdict: But only if you're polymorphed into something that can climb trees, such as a monkey. 15:44 Humans are primates, and can climb trees pretty easily 15:44 Humans usually can, true. 15:44 Elves like hanging out in trees anyway, and orcs are probably close enough to humans to be able to do it. 15:44 But maybe dwarves and orcs cannot. 15:45 Dwarves almost certainly should not be able to; orcs are somewhat arguable. 15:45 NetHack orcs can wear boots meant for humans, so they may be closer to human than strictly-Tolkein orcs. 15:46 (Tolkein orcs have hooves.) 15:46 Heh, I suppose orcs can wear elven boots without any problems in nethack 15:46 wait, hooves? where did that come from? 15:46 I haven't read all of tolkien's stuff, but I've read the Hobbit, LOTR and the Silmarillion and I don't think I ever heard of that 15:47 Hmm, I thought I picked it up in LOTR or one of the appendices? I don't remember exactly. 15:47 -!- Menche_ is now known as Menche 15:50 Maybe from the same place that indicates they have snouts? 15:51 where's that from? hadn't heard that either though I can imagine it being in the hobbit or something 15:53 I don't remember exactly. 15:53 But I definitly imagined orcs having hooves, snouts, and possibly even small tusks, and skin somewhere in the brown-to-olive-green range. 15:53 And they dislike sunlight. 15:54 Pretty sure they were quite human-like. 15:54 They were corrupted elves after all. 15:54 This is sounding more like Wheel of Time trollocs than my mental image of orcs 16:01 Mandevil: Yes but they were corrupted _very_ early, and are corrupted elves in the same way that trolls are corrupted ents. 16:02 Not sure exactly when this happened, probably during the years of the trees. 16:02 YANI: in variants with ents, chopping down a tree will anger any ents on the level 16:02 Yes, it should do. 16:21 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:21 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 16:39 [dyn] hothraxxa (Hea Gno Mal Neu), 2324 points, T:3222, choked on a floating eye corpse 16:40 well that was dumb 16:40 should actually say not paying attention 16:58 hmm, is there any other way to die to floating eyes? 16:58 I guess you could get food poisoning from a rotten corpse 17:04 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:15 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 17:15 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 18:13 aosdict: Getting paralyzed for 490874907847 turns doesn't count? 18:17 any *other* way 18:18 the primary way is getting frozen 18:35 aosdict: You could probably be killed by kicking a floating eye corpse, or killed by a falling floating eye corpse. 18:35 I don't know of any way to get a monster to throw one at you, though. 18:36 You could theoretically get greasy fingers from eating a tin of floating eye, but I don't _off the top of my head_ know of a way for that to lead to death. 18:36 In old versions (say, 3.4.3), you might possibly be able to crash the game by having a wielded floating eye corpse rot away? Not sure about that one. 18:37 You could definitely crash 3.4.3 by casting stone to flesh at yourself while wielding a figurine of a floating eye. 18:37 (Or of most any other monster.) 18:38 Hmm, what happens if you #chat to a floating eye? 18:39 There's probably something you can do with a leashed tame floating eye. Not sure exactly what. 18:39 I don't think you can saddle one. 18:49 jonadab: those aren't floating eye deaths I'm counting, since they're not shown in (or inferrable from) the death reason 18:49 Ah. 18:49 I see. 18:49 in 3.6, you get killed by kicking something weird, killed by a falling object, etc 18:49 Right, ok. 18:51 and YANI: most corpses, or at least those under a certain weight, don't do any damage when falling on your head. 18:51 Floating eyes are pretty squishy 20:07 killed by kicking something weird? 20:09 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 20:10 that's 3.6's death message for kicking an object into a wall or whatever 20:10 makes parsing the xlogfile a bit nicer 20:11 since I don't have to deal with "died by kicking an ascended" cases when trying to count ascensions 20:13 "Killed by a falling blood pressure caused by gout" <-- possible to get in GruntHack 20:16 how does died by kicking an ascended work? 20:16 oh fruit? 20:21 yes 20:21 now, of course, you can still get killed by a jackal called ascended, and a few other combinations I think 20:54 i remember someone talking about a weird behavior regarding fruit names The Amulet of Yendor 20:54 but i dont recall if anything was discovered 20:55 my current fruit is "chocolate Amulet of Yendor" 20:55 and they are delicious 20:58 hothraxxa: You feel foolish! 21:21 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 21:24 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 21:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 21:25 -!- elenmirie has quit [Client Quit] 21:26 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 21:26 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 21:26 -!- elenmirie has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03 -!- greqrg has quit [Quit: Disconnected] 22:06 [slex] oddrun1 (Aci Alc Mal Cha), 2529 points, T:1198, killed by a monster (frenzytaur) 23:58 [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Mal Neu) killed Ruggo the Gnome King, on T:8039