00:03 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu) killed the Kisuke, on T:1241
00:04 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 1555 points, T:1242, killed by a monster (ugod)
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01:37 <Mandevil> K2: I'll check it when I get to work, thanks for letting me know.
01:37 <Beholder> Mandevil: Message from K2 at 2017-09-12 19:25 EDT: Tangles recent gh acsension doesnt show on your scoreboard, just an FYI
01:37 <Beholder> Mandevil: Message from K2 at 2017-09-12 19:49 EDT: I think I see why... last check on every server you track was 2017-09-10 at 1430 hrs
01:41 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 129 points, T:244, killed by a crossbow bolt
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02:04 <Mandevil> borek@voyager:~$ ssh score
02:04 <Mandevil> ssh: connect to host scoreboard.xd.cm port 22007: Network is unreachable
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04:03 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Mal Neu), 11546 points, T:3401, quit
04:38 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 2046 points, T:1502, killed by a monster (invisible Mr. Ngebel, the shopkeeper)
04:39 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 8 points, T:18, fell into a giant chasm
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06:06 <LarienTelrunya> Evil Patch idea: the elder priest in dnethack is not powerful enough, let's improve the power of his tentacle attack by making it destroy your bag of holding too. And if that happens, all contents are lost of course. Oh, and he should be able to steal your amulet of life saving and instantly put it on himself, too.
06:18 <noty> the tentacle attack already can steal items! though only if you've already lost all your armor and weapons
06:19 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 8661 points, T:3300, quit
06:19 <LarienTelrunya> ah, well then you're probably dead anyway since your head is unprotected from the "drain 9 INT per turn" attack
06:20 <LarienTelrunya> EPI: the elder priest's intelligence drain attack should not just drain one attribute. Drain them all! And kill the player if any of them would have been drained below 3. Amulets of life saving cause you to die again no matter what attribute it was.
06:21 <LarienTelrunya> !lastgame
06:21 <Beholder> LarienTelrunya: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/Y/Yuring/slex/dumplog/1505291991.slex.txt
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07:19 <jonadab> EPI: the elder priest can also summon doppelgangers, and he causes any (non-tame) doppelganger on the level to immitate himself.
07:59 <ais523> jonadab: I was looking into quest leader doppelgangers as potentially being useful for the TAS
08:00 <ais523> I don't think they are, but I'm also not sure exactly how they work, but it might be interesting
08:00 <ais523> I think they act like the quest leader but only if they're on quest home at the time
08:00 <ais523> ofc, it's possible that they don't exist, I didn't check that bit :-D
08:01 <jonadab> That'd be an interesting workaround for the dead-quest-leader problem.
08:01 <ais523> I don't see any obvious reason it doesn't work
08:01 <ais523> unless you angered the old one, then the new one will be angry too
08:01 <jonadab> That makes sense.
08:01 <ais523> (there's a global variable for the quest leader being angry that can't be unset)
08:04 <jonadab> YASI: when 3.7 is just about ready to be released but not quite yet public, get someone like Adeon to do a run of the release candidate on something like AGDQ or whatever.  Then officially release a couple of hours later.
08:12 <ais523> it's hard enough to speedrun a NetHack variant you fully understand
08:12 <jonadab> !tell K2 I have pushed some bugfixes, of moderate significance.  
08:12 <Beholder> Will do, jonadab!
08:12 <ais523> especially if you only get one try, live
08:12 <jonadab> Yes, it was a silly idea.
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09:24 <bug_sniper> EPI: put one of those elder priests on all 3 astral plane altars
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09:30 <jonadab> EPI: in order to reach the Astral Plane, you must pass the Plane of Earth, the Plane of Fire, the Plane of Water, the Plane of Wood, the Plane of Acid, the Plane of Metal, the Plane of Lightning, the Plane of Poison, the Plane of Ice, the Plane of Smoke, the Plane of Magma, the Plane of Ooze, the Plane of Ash, the Plane of Vacuum, the Plane of Air, the Plane of Magic, and the Plane of Antimagic.  Each 
09:30 <jonadab> of these Planes has an Elder Priest.
09:31 <jonadab> YASI: also, the Plane of Tedium, which instead of being 80x24 is 8000x2400 (and the viewport moves around the plane to keep the character on the screen).
09:38 <bug_sniper> jonadab, one's easy, just use the explore mode key
09:39 <bug_sniper> like everyone does in dungeon crawl
09:41 <bug_sniper> jonadab, you forgot the plane of salt and the plane of dust
09:41 <bug_sniper> and the plane of gems and the plane of vapors
09:43 <bug_sniper> and the plane of steam
09:51 <jonadab> bug_sniper: Ah, but in the Evil Patch, the Plane of Tedium spawns non-extinctable popcorn monsters near you every 2 turns, so autoexplore and the like always get interrupted.
09:51 <jonadab> Even travel doesn't work there.
09:52 <bug_sniper> and that means you've got lots of food I guess
09:52 <jonadab> And of course if you just hold down keys, the Elder Priests will get you.  Because this is the Evil Patch, convenience cannot be allowed.
09:52 <jonadab> bug_sniper: I was thinking grid bugs.
09:53 <bug_sniper> you can still use a screenreader and an automatic player for that level
09:53 <LarienTelrunya> Make it something that has a passive attack, so bumping into everything will also screw you over. :D
09:53 <bug_sniper> interrupt when you find the elder priest
09:53 <jonadab> EPI: there is also a Plane of Frustration, where movement simply doesn't work 19/20 times.
09:53 <jonadab> LarienTelrunya: spotted jellies?  blood puddings?
09:53 <LarienTelrunya> yeah they would work :)
09:54 <bug_sniper> @le?blood pudding
09:54 <jonadab> bug_sniper: passive drain-level attack.
09:54 <jonadab> Although, drain res is a thing.
09:54 <jonadab> So the spotted jellies might be better.
09:55 <jonadab> Or both, actually, because YDSM is also a thing.
09:55 <bug_sniper> so is acid res
09:55 <jonadab> Yeah.
09:55 <jonadab> So maybe add a third type of jelly/pudding with a passive disintegration attack.
09:55 <jonadab> EPI: ^
09:55 <LarienTelrunya> ^^ added to my to-do list :)
09:55 <jonadab> Also, one with a passive drain-luck attack.
09:55 <jonadab> And maybe a passive reduce-max-HP attack.
09:56 <bug_sniper> slex already has a lot of those
09:56 <bug_sniper> karmic molds
09:56 <jonadab> Or maybe a monster with a passive attack that generates nasty traps on several tiles in your immediate vicinity.
09:56 <jonadab> That would be popular.
09:56 <Tangles> Don't forget the plane of lag
09:57 <jonadab> Hah, the Plane of Lag.
09:59 <jonadab> On the Plane of Lag, the game uses a Yahoo Mail account to send email to a Hotmail account, each turn, and does not process your next input until the message is received.
09:59 <jonadab> Extreme EPI: ^
09:59 <Tangles> Not sure what you'd do there, just delay responses to all keystrokes by 0.5s maybe. Perhaps combined with the plane of frustration idea, so you don't actually know which of your 1/20 keystrokes actually worked, unless you wait every time. 
09:59 <bug_sniper> does that passive disintegration attack eventually get you killed by a died?
09:59 <Tangles> Yeah or that :P
10:02 <jonadab> bug_sniper: Heh.
10:03 <jonadab> Probably "killed by a blast of disintegration", but who knows.
10:04 <jonadab> YASI: Plane of Your Mom.  Every turn, every monster on the level tells you a Your Mom joke.
10:05 <jonadab> Turn it into an EPI: on the Plane of Your Mom, the "rest on space" option is overidden to always on.
10:05 <jonadab> And Esc to cancel the rest of the messages doesn't work.
10:06 <bug_sniper> and with cracks that cripple all the monsters whenever you step on them
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10:18 <jonadab> bug_sniper: No, the cracks cripple _you_ when _monsters_ step on them.  Evil Patch Ideas have to be evil, remember.
10:20 <bug_sniper> that would be almost like a ronin reading a scroll of genocide
10:25 <jonadab> Well, we haven't established what cripling does ye3t.
10:25 <jonadab> *yet
10:25 <jonadab> Maybe it only stops you from being able to move for 5d50 turns, or something.
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10:36 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 921 points, T:1122, killed by a spore cloud
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10:37 <K2-webirc> Mandevil: no prob, hope you're able to resolve it soon, saw your 'network unreachable' post :/
10:37 <K2-webirc> jonadab and FIQ: saw your messages to update. will do when I get home
10:39 <K2-webirc> having web irc logs is awesome btw
10:47 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 179 points, T:492, killed by an arrow
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10:58 <bug_sniper> looks like my nice patch ideas went into aosdict's yani archive
10:59 <aos> I flag "idea:"
11:07 <FIQ> hi
11:07 <Beholder> Hello FIQ, Welcome to #hardfought
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11:20 <K2-webirc> ni
11:30 <bug_sniper> it
11:30 <jonadab> ickyickyickybutangzoomboingyzollizeal.
11:38 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Kur Trp Fem Law), 6934 points, T:1349, petrified by a thrown petrifying egg
11:43 <K2-webirc> ;)
11:51 <jonadab> YASI:  "You open the tin.  It smells like scrambled eggs.  Eat it? (y/n)"
11:51 <jonadab> You never know what kind of eggs you're gonna get.
11:52 <Mandevil> How do I configure irssi to go over SSL?
11:52 <Mandevil> I cannot join kerio's channel because it apparently blocks non-SSL users.
11:52 <aos>  /connect -ssl?
11:52 <bug_sniper> YASI: spambots that throw endless numbers of tins of spam at you, all rotten
11:53 <Mandevil> aos: Yes, but I want to modify current setup.
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11:57 <FIQ> Mandevil: I connect unsecured to localhost znc which itself connects securely
11:57 <FIQ> in weechat
11:57 <Mandevil> I don't use ZNC.
11:57 <Mandevil> But I edited .irssi/config and now I connected over SSL.
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11:57 <FIQ> ok
11:57 <K2-webirc> there's gotta be an irssi SASL guide out there somewhere
11:58 <K2-webirc> ah ok
11:58 <FIQ> did you fix scoreboard btw?
11:58 <Mandevil> FIQ: I am trying to talk to kerio.
11:58 <Mandevil> FIQ: But his channel requires SSL.
11:58 <FIQ> didn't you say that you used ssl?
11:58 <Mandevil> FIQ: I just configured that.
11:58 <FIQ> ok
12:03 <Mandevil> The scoreboard should update soon, it was isolated from the network.
12:06 <K2-webirc> kerio say why?
12:11 <Mandevil> K2-webirc: No.
12:19 <Mandevil> OK, NHS is up-to-date again.
12:22 <K2-webirc> \o/
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15:29 <aos> yasi: remembrall, a tool made of glass that cures amnesia
15:30 <FIQ> 08:46 < raisse + > I notice that you don't feel like a hypocrite when zapping things with force bolt from the temple
15:30 <FIQ> this is a good point
15:33 <aos> I think hypocrisy while attacking from a temple is too harsh
15:34 <aos> ais523: did you intend attacking from a temple to be hypocrisy-free to be the way it works?
15:34 <FIQ> aos: why?
15:34 <FIQ> why should you get sanctuary but still be allowed to attack monsters?
15:34 <FIQ> that's just unfair
15:35 <ais523> aos: I didn't consider the situation at all
15:35 <ais523> but it does, flavourwise, seem somewhat hypocritcal
15:35 <FIQ> now I'm tempted to give monsters sanctuary too
15:35 <FIQ> but naturally they'll still be allowed to attack you
15:35 <FIQ> ;)
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15:47 <K2> FIQhack updated
15:47 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-12 22:59 EDT: fh updated
15:47 <Beholder> K2: Message from jonadab at 2017-09-13 08:12 EDT: I have pushed some bugfixes, of moderate significance.
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15:48 <K2> NetHack Fourk updated
15:49 <jared55> o jeez thats alot of choices in slashem
15:50 <Crawldragon> Yup
15:50 <jared55> foxhound agent mgs oh its on
15:52 <jared55> written in the book of Deepthroat omg
15:57 <jonadab> !tell LarienTelrunya Does Slash'EM Extended have an "Absent Minded Professor" role yet, with a quest to save the university funding and recover the stolen flubber?
15:57 <Beholder> Will do, jonadab!
15:58 <Mandevil> What is a flubber?
15:58 <jonadab> Mandevil: a movie reference.  
15:59 <K2> hah flubber
15:59 <jonadab> Old black and white live-action Disney movie.
15:59 <K2> havent heard/seen that in forever
15:59 <K2> jerry lewis if i recall
15:59 <jonadab> _The Absent-Minded Professor_.
15:59 <FIQ> I recall seeing a movie called flubber and it wasn't black and white
15:59 <K2> there was a remake
15:59 <jonadab> That would be a cheesy remake.
16:01 <jonadab> Alright, let's see who remembers the eighties:  What do you get when you put a pastel suit jacket on a pair of pliers and roll up the sleeves?
16:02 <K2> dammit...
16:02 <jonadab> Also: why did Reagan want to send the Cleveland Browns to Panama?
16:02 <K2> i should this...
16:02 <K2> *know
16:03 <K2> is the first one a miami vice reference?
16:03 <K2> hah
16:03 <K2> it is :P
16:03 <jonadab> It is.  Miami Vice Grips.
16:03 <K2> \o/
16:04 <K2> no idea on the 2nd one
16:04 <jonadab> He figured Bernie Kozar would be able to overthrow Noriega.
16:04 <K2> ...
16:04 <jonadab> (He was famous for throwing the football past his receivers.)
16:04 <K2> lol
16:05 <Crawldragon> grumble grumble football fans grumble grumble
16:05 <jonadab> Crawldragon: I actually don't like football at all.  Or sports in general.
16:06 <jonadab> But I lived in Ohio in the eighties, so I heard that joke a lot of times.
16:06 <K2> my wife actually complimented me on my lack of sports watching interest
16:06 <jared55> ew sports
16:06 <K2> i enjoy the occasional nfl playoff game, but thats about it
16:06 <K2> *she* likes to watch the olympics, i could care less
16:06 <Crawldragon> I think my boyfriend might watch cricket
16:06 <jonadab> My favorite sport is chess, does that count?
16:07 <K2> yup
16:07 <jonadab> I also like Perl golf.
16:07 <Crawldragon> No, chess is *better* than a sport. It's a *game.*
16:07 * K2 used to be an avid chess player
16:07 <jonadab> (I'm not very _good_ at Perl golf, but.)
16:07 <jonadab> (Not very good at chess either.  But I find it way more watchable as a spectator sport than, say, football.  There's more going on.)
16:08 <Crawldragon> I keep meaning to get into chess
16:08 <Crawldragon> My boyfriend would flatten me pretty much no matter how good I got, though; he's got all of the optimum strategies memorized.
16:09 <Crawldragon> I've managed to checkmate him *once*
16:09 <jared55> so im hoping i can find a gun at some point on slashem
16:09 <jonadab> Its reputation for being hard to learn to play is exaggerated.  However, it has _deep_ strategy once you get past the basics, there are literally _hundreds_ of different levels of proficiency.
16:09 <jonadab> I can hold my own against people who hardly ever play.
16:09 <jonadab> If you put me against somebody who plays every week, much less every day, I get creamed.
16:10 <jared55> i always thought chess was about good ol "being stepsahead of the other player" type strategy
16:10 <jonadab> jared55: You _usually_ have to get pretty far into the game to start seeing firearms.  I usually find bullets first, before the actual guns.
16:10 <jared55> there is guns tho. nice
16:10 <jonadab> jared55: You can't really predict what the other player is going to do, though.
16:11 <jonadab> So you end up looking at things like how much space you control.
16:11 <jonadab> How developed your position is, how flexible.
16:11 <FIQ> K2: what opening did you generally play
16:11 <Crawldragon> Playing with my boyfriend has taught me a lot about turtling in chess
16:11 <FIQ> jonadab: "there's more going on"
16:11 <FIQ> not really
16:11 <Crawldragon> but his fatal mistake was assuming it's no longer possible to go on the offensive once someone is effectively turtled
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16:15 <jared55> found a bfg lol
16:16 <jonadab> slex has the bfg9000?
16:17 <jared55> just a regular bfg
16:17 <jared55> fires bullets
16:17 <jonadab> Ah.
16:18 <jonadab> YASI: slex should have nuclear grenades.
16:18 <Tarmunora> Only bullets, or can it shoot everything?
16:19 <Beholder> [slex] Jared55 (Fox Exp Mal Neu), 2180 points, T:991, killed by a shotgun shell
16:19 <jared55> i didnt try just wanted to see how it did against a shopkeeper
16:19 <Tarmunora> RIP
16:19 <jared55> who apparently had a shotgun
16:20 <jared55> can you actually sneak in slashem or is there always enemies who always know where youre at
16:21 <K2> FIQ: queen's gambit is my usual go-to opening
16:21 <K2> defense or declined
16:22 <K2> or bird's opening as white just to mess with ppl
16:22 <Crawldragon> My first move is always to release the knight as soon as possible
16:23 <K2> controlling the center
16:23 <K2> that's generally the idea in the early game. of course there's always variations to the rule
16:24 <Tarmunora> jared55: Slex shopkeepers are not to be trifled with. Even vanilla slashem's shopkeepers are lvl 24 with -6 AC and a shotgun, and slex probably gives them deathrays to with it
16:24 <K2> most powerful shopkeeper i ever encountered in any variant is Izchak in grunthack
16:24 <K2> just dont
16:25 <Crawldragon> Slex also has invisible shopkeepers
16:25 <Crawldragon> Remember to 'search' any time you're near the door because if you bump into one of those bastards your ass is grass
16:25 <K2> sporkhack has arch-liches as shopkeepers sometimes
16:25 <jared55> thinking #monster could snap necks playing as foxhound. dissapointed
16:25 <K2> good to know regarding slex
16:26 <K2> alrightly, time to pickup the kiddo
16:26 <K2> bbl
16:28 <jared55> superjedi whos lightsaber i want
16:29 <loli> superjedi are OP
16:30 <loli> -20 ac
16:30 <loli> be care
16:30 <loli> I've killed a shop keeper before
16:32 <FIQ> I have considered giving Rogues, and shopkeepers, an item steal ability
16:32 <jared55> "detect foot" thats a real spell? lol
16:33 <loli> ??
16:33 <jared55> boy theres alot in this game
16:33 <loli> what does the spell do?
16:33 <jared55> 99% fail rate
16:33 <loli> press i
16:33 <loli> and click the item
16:34 <FIQ> detect foot
16:34 <loli> it should give you the description
16:34 <FIQ> you are playing sporkhack?
16:34 <loli> lol
16:34 <jared55> couldnt click
16:34 <jared55> slex
16:34 <loli> not click
16:34 <loli> like
16:34 <loli> press i
16:34 <FIQ> detect foot allows you to sense whether or not you have feet
16:34 <loli> then key for the book of detect foot
16:34 <FIQ> it's a level 7 divination spell
16:34 <jared55> lol that description
16:35 <jared55> its supposed to be useless but it can make enemies fall over in slash em
16:35 <loli> ahh
16:35 <loli> so that's nice
16:35 <FIQ> probably due to how horrible your feet smell after trekking around in the dungeon :P
16:47 <Beholder> [slex] Jared55 (Fox Exp Mal Neu), 3187 points, T:1907, killed by a monster (gnome warrior)
16:48 <jared55> i need to read a bit lol
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19:21 <K2> !players
19:21 <Beholder> K2: k2 [gh] Grasshopper [nd] 
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20:30 <Crawldragon> hmm, they're migrating 3.6.1 away from K&R C and into ANSI
20:32 <aos> wait really?
20:32 <aos> who said that?
20:32 <FIQ> they are?
20:32 <FIQ> what
20:32 <Crawldragon> There are commits related to that in the NetHack GitHub repository
20:32 <FIQ> how when what where why
20:32 <Crawldragon> although now that I've looked there's some discussion on whether or not they should go through with it
20:32 <aos> oh that
20:33 <FIQ> are you sure you aren't talking about the PR
20:33 <aos> you mean the MaddTheSane pull request?
20:33 <Crawldragon> What's a PR?
20:33 <aos> is there a commit about ansi directly on one of their branches?
20:34 <Crawldragon> oh no you're right it's just a pull request
20:35 <aos> I want ansi very very much
20:35 <Crawldragon> It would be pretty damn cool if only because it would make declaring functions way way less of a pain in the ass
20:35 <FIQ> now you make me disappointed
20:39 <jonadab> I'm pretty sure there _are_ dev team members who _do_ want to move in that direction; but they may have to "boil the frog" on that for a while.
20:41 <jonadab> Assuming nobody sends the dev team any email _complaining_ about or reporting as a _bug_ the minor little bits of non-K&R stuff that creep in, it may get to stay, and potentially that may lead to more...
20:42 <Crawldragon> Is there a reason why they haven't translated it yet, apart from support for old systems?
20:42 <jonadab> Support for old compilers is the sticking point.
20:43 <jonadab> Personally, my view is that any system so ancient and with such a small hobbyist community that it doesn't have an ANSI C compiler yet, after almost three decades, is fundamentally unsupportable.
20:44 <Crawldragon> There probably would be one bastard who e-mails the dev team to complain that 3.6.5 or something doesn't compile on their collector's Commodore 64 or something.
20:44 <FIQ> jonadab: what I wonder is
20:44 <FIQ> can you even make 3.6.x run on such hardware
20:44 <jonadab> If the C compiler people, who have a lot more development time and interest in such things, can't support it, NetHack realistically can't hope to.
20:44 <jonadab> FIQ: I doubt very much if you can make 3.0.0 run on it.
20:45 <FIQ> oh I'm sure you can get 3.4.3 running
20:45 <FIQ> considering how long it has been around
20:45 <jonadab> FIQ: But nobody has gotten an ANSI C compiler to run?
20:45 <Crawldragon> Some versions of 3.6.0 also rely on C++; I know the Windows version does for the regex. Are there even C++ compilers extant for systems that old?
20:45 <FIQ> sure
20:45 <jonadab> I mean, I _do_ know of platforms with no ANSI C compiler.  But they're not platforms you could ever hope to port Hack to.
20:46 <jonadab> Some of the platforms Infocom used to support just don't have the resources for a C compiler.
20:46 <jonadab> Of any kind, let alone ANSI.
20:46 <jonadab> Crawldragon: Windowports are allowed to rely on stuff.
20:46 <FIQ> the curses windowport is in ANSI C
20:46 <jonadab> Crawldragon: the Gtk port relies on all sorts of things that aren't available on non-*nix platforms.
20:47 <FIQ> some windowports aren't even in C
20:47 <jonadab> The list of dependencies for Gtk is _extensive_.
20:47 <jonadab> But that's the windowport.
20:47 <Crawldragon> hmm
20:48 <jonadab> Nintendo Gameboy is an example of a platform with no self-hosting C compiler.  Not sure if there's a cross-compiler for it, there could be.
20:48 <jonadab> Some of the early TI calculators.
20:49 <jonadab> Some of the 8-bit micros from the 70s.
20:49 <Crawldragon> There is a version of Hack for GameBoy or GameBoy color, one of the two.
20:49 <Crawldragon> I don't remember how I know that.
20:49 <FIQ> I think there has been games for the gameboy made in compiled languages, possibly C
20:49 <jonadab> If there's Hack, there must be a C cross-compiler for it.
20:49 <FIQ> but they tend to not be very demanding
20:50 <jonadab> Right, I don't think you could run a C compiler _on_ Gameboy.  There's no filesystem, for one thing.
20:50 <jonadab> PC Jr is another example of that.  Cartridge only, no fs.
20:50 <Crawldragon> There *is* an office suite :p
20:50 <jonadab> Crawldragon: Can it open MS Word documents?
20:50 <FIQ> the gameboy has a "1MHz" CPU and a whopping 8K of RAM
20:50 <jonadab> (Answer:  hahaha.)
20:51 <Crawldragon> No, but it did come with a calculator and I think it might actually have had a rudimentary text editor
20:51 <Crawldragon> this is one of those weird Japanese-only things they did with the GameBoy.
20:51 <jonadab> Calculator is easy.
20:51 <FIQ> oh yeah I think I heard of that thing
20:51 <jonadab> Text editor is also not too demanding.
20:52 <Crawldragon> Depends; because it's Japanese-only the question is which symbol set are you using?
20:52 <jonadab> Platforms that don't have resources for a text editor are things like Atari 2600.  Extremely limited address space.
20:52 <Crawldragon> I've seen old text editors written for Japanese consoles and they look like a pain in the ass
20:52 <jonadab> Such platforms generally can't run Zork either.
20:52 <jonadab> (Zork is a good litmus test for "can this platform do actual things".)
20:52 <FIQ> I know the gba has a nethack port
20:52 <FIQ> not sure with gb
20:53 <Crawldragon> I actually reviewed a first-person maze game for the Atari 2600 which had a hardware expansion built into the cartridge.
20:53 <jonadab> Crawldragon: I think you could do a text editor for Nintendo, but you'd need to put a battery in the cartridge if you want to save files when you turn the system off.
20:53 <FIQ> I guess if you used a MBC5 to store levels to sram you might be able to pull off older nethack versions on gb...
20:53 <jonadab> Input would be really super annoying, though.
20:53 <jonadab> Unless somebody made a keyboard for the thing.
20:54 <Crawldragon> jonadab: Yeah but battery saves for GameBoy are in my experience relatively reliable.
20:54 <Crawldragon> My old saves for Pokemon Red are still intact but my copy of Pokemon Silver won't save at all now because apparently someone at GameFreak had a massive brain fart at the time.
20:54 <FIQ> (MBC5 has up to 128K sram IIRC)
20:54 <jonadab> Crawldragon: Yes, if you put a battery in the cartridge, you could do that.  Note that the larger you want the capacity to be, the more battery power you need.
20:54 <FIQ> Crawldragon: it has to do with the RTC
20:54 <FIQ> the RTC drains battery
20:54 <FIQ> making GSC saves last not nearly as long
20:54 <Crawldragon> hmm, good point
20:55 <FIQ> it drains the backup battery, that is
20:55 <FIQ> jonadab: I think the biggest hurdle to hosting nethack on the gameboy is the storage space
20:55 <Crawldragon> jonadab, it actually wouldn't surprise me if someone *did* make a keyboard for the GameBoy; the god-damned thing had a SONAR attachment for fishermen.
20:55 <jonadab> These days, you could just put flash in the cartridge, of course; but that's cheating, beause that wasn't available when Nintendo was current.
20:56 <jonadab> FIQ: ROM space, or savegame size?
20:56 <FIQ> savegame size
20:56 <jonadab> Crawldragon: I meant the NES.
20:56 <FIQ> rom space can be up to 8M
20:56 <FIQ> which is plenty
20:56 <jonadab> Oh, yes, that's enough.
20:57 <jonadab> So yeah, savegame size is the issue.
20:57 <jonadab> And compilation.
20:57 <jonadab> Cross-compilation of NetHack is...  problematic.
20:57 <FIQ> not sure on the highest amount of savegame size a MBC5 can fit (the "best" bank controller in terms of rom+sram space)
20:57 <FIQ> but it was in the magnitude of 128K
20:57 <jonadab> Though I've successfully cross-compiled makedefs.
20:57 <FIQ> which I'm not sure is enough for nethack
20:57 <jonadab> And it worked.
20:58 <FIQ> heh
20:58 <jonadab> I'm currently still stuck on the zlib dependency stage.
20:58 <jonadab> Probably need to compile my own zlib as part of the build process.
20:58 <jonadab> Didn't have time last Saturday to work on it because my sister was in from out of town, and plus we went to a conference thing on Saturday.
20:59 <jonadab> Drove up to Orrville to hear Dr. DeYoung.
20:59 <jonadab> But maybe this weekend I can look at that.
20:59 <FIQ> jonadab: how large is a typical NH3 save?
20:59 <jonadab> I don't know.
21:00 <jonadab> But I've heard tales of farmers using cursed bags of holding to significantly reduce the save filesize.
21:00 <FIQ> lol
21:00 <jonadab> So if that's true, and I see no reason to doubt it, the save filesize is dependent on stuff you can't know until runtime.
21:01 <Crawldragon> I have two 3.6.0 save games on my hard drive that are 46 and 122 kilobytes
21:01 <jonadab> Which is a problem for platforms like Gameboy.
21:01 <FIQ> Crawldragon: yeah that's definitely pushing it
21:01 <Crawldragon> and that's not very far into the game, either,
21:02 <jonadab> With a game like Zork, a save file is never larger than the read/write portion of the game image.
21:02 <jonadab> So you know exactly how many bytes you need, at compile time.
21:03 <jonadab> NetHack, obviously, can't be constrained in that way; I don't think any roguelike can, really.
21:03 <FIQ> ok I double checked
21:03 <FIQ> http://gbdev.gg8.se/wiki/articles/Memory_Bank_Controllers#MBC5_.28max_8MByte_ROM_and.2For_128KByte_RAM.29
21:03 <FIQ> so yeah
21:03 <FIQ> up to 128K SRAM
21:03 <FIQ> with MBC5
21:03 <jonadab> That might be a hard limit due to address space.
21:03 <FIQ> not true
21:04 <FIQ> well it is with that particular bank controller
21:04 <Crawldragon> jonadab: As far as I know the best way to store dungeon levels for a roguelike is to save the seed used to generate it and then basically record the changes made as the player plays
21:04 <FIQ> but nothing prevents you from having a 1GB ROM space
21:04 <Crawldragon> I don't know what the minimum amount of data required for that would be, but
21:04 <FIQ> with a bank controller supporting it
21:04 <jonadab> Crawldragon: Yes, but you don't know how many bytes the changes will take unless you know what changes will happen.
21:04 <FIQ> jonadab: if you don't use any kind of bank controller of sort in the cartridge
21:04 <FIQ> the gameboy supports 32K ROM space and 4K RAM
21:05 <jonadab> Ah, so they use a paging system?
21:05 <FIQ> yeah
21:05 <jonadab> Which the game code presumably has to implement.
21:05 <jonadab> Because operating system?  What's that?
21:05 <FIQ> right
21:05 <FIQ> generally it assigns 16K from 0000-3FFF to a "home bank" with game-essential things and for the bankswitch code
21:06 <FIQ> and 4000-7FFF can be bankswitched using the bank controller on the cartridge
21:06 <FIQ> consisting of you writing data to a rom address and the cartridge picking up on that
21:06 <jonadab> Right.
21:06 <jonadab> You give it a bank number and yeah.
21:07 <FIQ> mhm
21:08 <jonadab> YASI: make the cartridge actually an interface to a Raspberry Pi, which runs the actual game, and the code that runs on the Gameboy just handes display and input, basically.
21:08 <jonadab> Then you can run arbitrarily complex games "on a Gameboy".
21:08 <FIQ> heh
21:08 <jonadab> NetHack?  No problme.
21:08 <FIQ> there was a flash cart for the DS that did basically that
21:09 <FIQ> called the DSTWO
21:09 <FIQ> it allowed stuff like gba emulation on the DS
21:09 <jonadab> Isn't the DS a much newer, presumably more capable system?
21:09 <FIQ> which would otherwise be too much for the DS to handle
21:09 <FIQ> jonadab: yes
21:09 <jonadab> I can just see someone running textmode Quake on a Gameboy using this method.
21:10 <FIQ> a chinese company made a flashcart for the DS with a built-in CPU that outperformed the DS itself
21:10 <FIQ> that allowed for more powerful things than the DS otherwise could handle
21:10 <jonadab> Makes sense, once the DS is a few years old.
21:10 <FIQ> the main drawback was the fact that it drained the battery
21:10 <jonadab> Technology marches on.
21:10 <FIQ> faster
21:10 <FIQ> yeah
21:11 <FIQ> tricks like that has been done since the NES/GB era
21:11 <FIQ> NES had *tons* of stuff like that, not just inofficial but on official stuff too
21:11 <FIQ> the SNES had the super FX chip
21:11 <jonadab> Actually:  put bluetooth hardware on the cartridge, and farm out computation to the user's *phone*, with an app.
21:11 <FIQ> which backed the star fox game's graphics
21:11 <FIQ> heh
21:12 <FIQ> do you want that latency though :P
21:12 <jonadab> Depends what kind of game it is.
21:12 <jonadab> For a puzzle game or something, could be ok.
21:12 <jonadab> Oooh, multiplayer card game.
21:12 <FIQ> iirc there was a NES mahjong game that had a CPU that was 2 orders of magnitude faster than the NES itself
21:12 <jonadab> Over the internets.
21:13 <FIQ> used for the game's AI
21:13 <jonadab> Ah.
21:13 <FIQ> that has been done IIRC
21:13 <jonadab> Mahjong is quite big in Asia.
21:13 <jonadab> I assume you mean "has been done on Gameboy".
21:13 <jonadab> Since doing a cardgame over the internet _in general_ is ridiculously old hat.
21:13 <FIQ> well not with card games, but iirc someone made a cartridge for sonic romhacks with online connectivity
21:13 <jonadab> Ah.
21:13 <FIQ> for the genesis/mega drive
21:13 <jonadab> So yes, on Gameboy.
21:14 <jonadab> Or, yeah, ok, that's similar.
21:15 <FIQ> jonadab: but there was actually official things with online way back for snes, genesis/mega drive, gameboy
21:15 <FIQ> but it generally didn't use the cartridge
21:15 <FIQ> but a seperate thing
21:15 <jonadab> Ah, something that plugged into a port on the console?
21:15 <jonadab> Some consoles had ports you could plug extra hardware into.
21:15 <FIQ> I don't know the details about the snes/genesis things, but gameboy had a mobile connector in japan
21:16 <jonadab> That goes all the way back to Commodore 64, I think.
21:16 <FIQ> so you connected the gameboy to a phone for online gaming
21:16 <FIQ> I know it was used in pokemon crystal and mario kart super circuit (for the gba) among others
21:16 <FIQ> genesis had the sega channel which relied on TV satellite stuff
21:17 <FIQ> containing demo versions of games and in rare cases full games, and used a special cart for its stuff
21:17 <jonadab> Crawldragon: Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to port NetHack to the Atari 2600.  You're allowed to put extra hardware on the cartridge (because it'd be completely unpossible otherwise).
21:17 <FIQ> from what I understand, it worked, but wasn't very stable
21:19 <FIQ> some genesis games was only ever released digitally for the US over that thing and got physical releases elsewhere
21:20 <FIQ> jonadab: regarding the bankswitch stuff
21:20 <FIQ> it has led to annoying to track down bugs more than once when I've been romhacking for it
21:21 <FIQ> because the assembler I use doesn't realize something is wrong if I tell it to call a function in a seperate bank
21:21 <FIQ> w/o using the bankswitch macros
21:22 <FIQ> so it ends up jumping somewhere else which is obviously wrong but isn't neccessarily obvious
21:22 <FIQ> if the destination eventually returns w/o messing up the stack
21:23 <FIQ> I think this has been the most annoying thing overall when romhacking
21:26 <Grasshopper> haha, romhacking = romantic hacking
21:26 <Beholder> Grasshopper: Message from aosdict at 2017-09-11 16:38 EDT: you play a lot of nhdev games; how often do you see a widemaze level generate?
21:26 <Grasshopper> like hacking with a hot partner, or with a sunset
21:27 <jonadab> Hacking while listening to Chopin.
21:28 <Grasshopper> !tell aosdict I don't know what a "widemaze" level is, but if it is what I guess then probably about the same as other maze types for valid levels
21:28 <Beholder> Will do, Grasshopper!
21:29 <jonadab> Grasshopper: A "widemaze" is a maze with walls and/or corridors more than one tile thick.
21:29 <jonadab> I think the first _public_ widemaze implementation was in Fourk.
21:29 <Grasshopper> jonadab: that was my guess thus my multi-tiered answer
21:30 <aos> I wonder how many bad forgotten rom-coms revolving around hacking exist
21:30 <jonadab> But it's been apparently independently implemented several times.
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21:30 <jonadab> Grasshopper: So you're saying about half the mazes in 3.6 are widemazes?
21:31 <FIQ> paxed did widemazes before you I think
21:31 <FIQ> also, 3.6.1
21:31 <FIQ> not 3.6.0
21:33 <Grasshopper> jonadab: maybe as equally likely as other maze types for valid levels
21:33 <Grasshopper> valid - not special level
21:33 <Grasshopper> and there are various "widemaze" types according to your definition
21:34 <jonadab> Fourk had widemazes rather early.  2015 April.
21:34 <Grasshopper> they are not all the same
21:34 <jonadab> True.
21:35 <Grasshopper> I really don't know the odds, that would require some source diving
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21:36 <jonadab> Yeah, it would.
21:36 <jonadab> Or generating a TON of levels, for stats.
21:36 <jonadab> Which is even more trouble than source diving.
21:42 <Crawldragon> jonadab, I don't know anything about the Atari 2600 or its internal specifications apart from random bits of trivia
21:42 <jonadab> Crawldragon: Yeah, me too.
21:42 <jonadab> That's what makes the project a challenge!
21:42 <Crawldragon> A challenge to find a way to play NetHack on a console with only a joystick and a button
21:43 <jonadab> Indeed.
21:43 <Crawldragon> Two of each if you include that Indiana Jones game that infamously required two controllers in order to manage its inventory system
21:43 <jonadab> Well, there was also that other kind of controller you could get, with the dial and the button.
21:43 <Crawldragon> I once wrote up a design document for a shoot 'em up for the Atari which required you to flick the A and B switch in order to switch between a laser attack or a bomb.
21:43 <Crawldragon> I'm not sure the 2600 would have even let you do that.
21:45 <jonadab> IIRC, the switches on the Atari console weren't really a "flick" type of switch.  More of a slider.
21:45 <jonadab> But it's been a loooong time since I saw one, so my memory is fuzzy.
21:45 <Crawldragon> Well you technically slid them up and down but they were still binary switches
21:45 <Crawldragon> hang on, I've got an Atari, I'll just flick it and see
21:46 <jonadab> Yes, they were binary switches.
21:46 <jonadab> Either on or off.
21:47 <Crawldragon> Well that was immensely satisfying
21:47 <Crawldragon> like pulling a lever to start some grand and terrible machine
21:49 <jonadab> What happens if you switch between color and black-and-white while a game is playing?
21:49 <jonadab> Does it turn color on and off in realtime?
21:55 <FIQ> Crawldragon: hah
21:56 <Crawldragon> jonadab: As I recall, yes.
21:56 <Crawldragon> The TV that I use for my Atari also has a switch that turns the color off but it also produces a horrible buzzing sound
21:57 <FIQ> hm
21:58 <FIQ> apparently the atari's cpu wasn't that bad for its time
21:58 <FIQ> its RAM though...
21:58 <Crawldragon> It's quite good for a computer from the '70s.
21:58 <FIQ> 128 bytes!
21:58 <Crawldragon> Yup. Here's your API, you have 128 bytes of RAM to work with, and have this ET game ready by the time Christmas has come.
21:58 <Crawldragon> What could possibly go wrong?
21:59 <jonadab> FIQ: Yes, the amount of RAM is the Atari's most serious limitation.
21:59 <jonadab> Crawldragon: I played that game.
21:59 <Crawldragon> Did you like it?
21:59 <jonadab> My grandmother had it, for the Atari she bought for the grandkids to play when we came over.
21:59 <jonadab> I never managed to figure out how to do anything other than wander around and accidentally fall into pits.
22:00 <jonadab> She had three games altogether.
22:00 <Crawldragon> The perils of gaming when you're too young to understand the manual.
22:00 <jonadab> The Kool-Aid Man game was kind of lame, but we played it anyway.  It was ok.  It was easy enough to figure out what you were supposed to do.
22:00 <jonadab> But the one that really fascinated me was Pitfall II.
22:00 <Crawldragon> Oh I love Pitfall.
22:01 <jonadab> I am _terrible_ at platformers, so I had a _horrible_ time getting anywhere in that game without dying.
22:01 <Crawldragon> Pitfall was a bit difficult to control, it must be said.
22:01 <jonadab> But the map was, by the standards of Atari video games, _enormous_.
22:01 <Crawldragon> I never knew what I was doing when playing Pitfall; as far as I could tell the objective was just to walk in either direction picking up treasure and getting eaten by a creative variety of jungle wildlife.
22:01 <Crawldragon> Still it had its charms.
22:06 <Crawldragon> Adventure for the A2600 is actually in my top ten favorite games.
22:06 <Crawldragon> I beat it once but apparently I've lost my touch since then.
22:06 <jonadab> The objective in Pitfall II was obvious from the beginning.  You could _see_ the monkey or whatever it was from the _starting screen_.
22:06 <jonadab> So you knew you just had to get there.
22:06 <jonadab> But man.
22:06 <jonadab> You have to take the long way around.
22:07 <Crawldragon> We can't all be the kid from Indiana Jones who follows the monkeys through the trees on a series of vines.
22:08 <jonadab> Because the stupid mouse always pushes you into the water if you try to take the short route.
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22:09 <Crawldragon> I wish I'd been able to find a copy of Pitfall before the local game collector's closed down
22:09 <Crawldragon> I got like a dozen games for a little over a dollar but Pitfall wasn't one of them.
22:12 <FIQ> jonadab: reminds me of an optional VVVVVV challenge
22:14 <FIQ> one of its collectibles is behind a 1-"pixel" high fence, and you can't jump, only flip gravity, so you have to fall upwards through a series of 7 screens filled to the brim with instadeath spikes w/o rest, land on a quickly-disappearing platform and then flip back down through the thing
22:14 <FIQ> to get over it
22:15 <Crawldragon> oh god I think I saw someone let's play that part
22:15 <Crawldragon> I want to say it took him three episodes to get the trajectory right and the entirety of those three episodes were made up largely of obscenities
22:15 <FIQ> hahah
22:16 <Crawldragon> Can someone explain to me what "typeahead" is?
22:16 <Crawldragon> I've seen references to it before
22:16 <FIQ> nowdays I can do that thing in just a few tries because I played VVVVVV *a lot* for months for a time
22:16 <FIQ> I made a custom level for it
22:16 <FIQ> but the first time... urgh
22:16 <Crawldragon> I didn't know you could do custom levels in VVVVVV
22:16 <FIQ> I had 2000+ deaths overall in my playthrough
22:16 <FIQ> well over half was on that part
22:16 <FIQ> :P
22:17 <FIQ> Crawldragon: you can since the C++ port when it was released on humble indie bundle
22:17 <FIQ> in 2012ish
22:17 <FIQ> it was previously released as a flash game
22:17 <FIQ> you couldn't make custom levels back then
22:17 <Crawldragon> ugh, flash games
22:18 <FIQ> hey, flash might be a horrible platform
22:18 <FIQ> but not all games are awful for it
22:18 <FIQ> I mean, VVVVVV was one :P
22:18 <Crawldragon> It's interesting though that we had that period of time where really talented people were making rudimentary starts in flash games and then successfully releasing or re-releasing games on major systems as actual computer programs.
22:18 <Crawldragon> I did play Meatboy for a bit but I ragequit because the keyboard detection on that game is total shit and I wasn't willing to put up with it.
22:19 <Crawldragon> It's still there, fouling up my Steam library, smugly and without any self-awareness.
22:19 <FIQ> haha
22:19 <jonadab> Crawldragon: "typeahead" is when you  know your computer buffers keyboard input, so you go ahead and type inputs before the software asks for them.
22:19 <Crawldragon> oh, okay, nifty
22:20 <FIQ> oh I do that a lot in weechat when on a flaky connection
22:20 <FIQ> didn't know there was a word for it
22:20 <Crawldragon> I also like how the author of Super Meatboy had the audacity to put up a screen mocking you for not using a controller (I think the words he used were "fucking stupid") when the only reason the keyboard sucked so bad in Meatboy was that they used the worst control scheme seen since the mid-nineties and refused to allow remapping.
22:20 <FIQ> lol
22:20 <FIQ> Crawldragon: do you have a switch
22:21 <Crawldragon> Honestly I should have recorded myself playing it because I'm sure the rage ranting would have been glorious
22:21 <FIQ> the console, not the network thingy
22:21 <Crawldragon> FIQ: No, I have no interest in Nintendo and refuse to buy any of their products.
22:21 <FIQ> I see
22:22 <FIQ> I've considered buying one but also want to wait until they make a more portable version
22:22 <Crawldragon> See I think Nintendo are kind of grasping at straws with the whole "mobile console" concept.
22:22 <Crawldragon> This seems like a real industry dead end, in my opinion.
22:22 <jonadab> Why spend money on hardware that can't do anything _except_ play games, when it can't even play my favorite games, and a general purpose computer _can_, as well as do other stuff?
22:22 <FIQ> Crawldragon: eh
22:22 <FIQ> it's selling
22:23 <FIQ> so I don't see what's wrong with it
22:23 <Crawldragon> I know it's selling but the fact that it's selling is the most ludicrous thing about it.
22:23 <FIQ> hahah
22:23 <Crawldragon> If you want a home console, buy a home console; most everyone who plays mobile games are doing it on smartphones these days.
22:23 <FIQ> jonadab: see that is generally my mindset
22:23 <FIQ> but it has some cool games I can't play elsewhere
22:23 <FIQ> in a portable format
22:24 <Crawldragon> I'm actually a little confused, are they still selling the 3DS?
22:24 <FIQ> yes, they don't want to cannibalise themselves
22:24 <FIQ> but I'm sure they'll phase it out
22:24 <FIQ> since it's clear the switch is selling
22:24 <FIQ> once the last few big titles are released for the 3ds
22:24 <jonadab> FIQ: Ah, you care about the portability, in the walking-around-the-neighborhood sense.  Hence the OP thing.
22:25 <FIQ> jonadab: right
22:25 <Crawldragon> See the thing that annoyed me about the DS family is that it went from a sort of cool handheld to the 3DS, which had a really revolutionary gimmick, and then they made a really terrible and ugly version of the DS and called it the 2DS
22:25 <Crawldragon> with the advertising concept of "It's like the 3DS, but without the 3D part that everyone likes!"
22:25 <FIQ> Crawldragon: hah
22:25 <Crawldragon> and I'm the only guy waving in the back row and going "didn't we have that five years ago!?"
22:25 <FIQ> the 2ds was dumb
22:25 <Crawldragon> but whatever, clearly I'm not their target demographic.
22:26 <FIQ> jonadab: I mean, if I could play their games on my OP
22:26 <FIQ> I wouldn't even consider a switch, or another nintendo handheld, etc
22:27 <jonadab> You can play NetHack on the OP.
22:27 <jonadab> Probably also Brogue.
22:27 <FIQ> Crawldragon: I'll probably get a switch once pokemon comes out for it
22:27 <Crawldragon> Come to think of it what they _should_ do is rebrand the 3DS as a mobile-only version of the Switch, for people who *only* game on the go
22:27 <FIQ> because I'm a sucker for that series :P
22:27 <Crawldragon> Surely that demographic must exist, certainly in Japan
22:27 <FIQ> jonadab: yes, the OP runs brogue fine
22:27 <Crawldragon> FIQ: Oh, jeez, I was a huge fan of Pokemon as a kid but I stopped playing after Ruby and Sapphire came out.
22:27 <FIQ> it's not *that* weak
22:27 <Crawldragon> I took one look at Luvdisc and decided that the series was getting increasingly dumb over time.
22:28 <FIQ> Crawldragon: lol
22:28 <Crawldragon> To be fair it looks like they saved it, and I actually like how the more recent games seem to have a kind of self-awareness about them
22:28 <Crawldragon> like how Mimikyu is clearly a parody of the cheap knockoff products that have always plagued the series
22:28 <FIQ> Crawldragon: ruby was my first pokemon game
22:28 <FIQ> heh
22:28 <Crawldragon> I think Pokemon Blue was actually the first video game that I personally owned
22:29 <Crawldragon> I begged and plead until my mom bought me and my older brother each a GameBoy, and he got Red and I got Blue.
22:29 <FIQ> I think pokemon was at its best in gsc
22:29 <FIQ> but IMO it hasn't ever been *bad*
22:29 <Crawldragon> I liked the original Silver and Gold, didn't play the new ones.
22:30 <Crawldragon> Silver is my favorite version personally because it introduced the mechanic where trainers could challenge you to rematches which I thought was a really cool thing to do.
22:30 <FIQ> Crawldragon: the only things I really miss in gsc is double battles and abilities
22:30 <FIQ> which is why I've been messing with romhacking crystal
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22:31 <Crawldragon> those were introduced in Ruby and Sapphire
22:31 <FIQ> indeed
22:31 <FIQ> I implemented abilities in crystal a while back
22:31 <Crawldragon> Double battles to me were kind of eh, I can see the appeal because they introduce another couple of layers of strategy but to me the one-on-one formula still stood out as more personally my taste.
22:31 <FIQ> but double battles... heh, good luck
22:32 <Crawldragon> Well also none of the Pokemon from GSC would have had any moves to facilitate the double battle mechanic, so you'd be missing an integral piece
22:32 <Crawldragon> unless you want to add that too
22:32 <FIQ> Mhm
22:33 <FIQ> Crawldragon: since the last year I began developing the battle engine part of someone else's crystal romhack
22:33 <FIQ> porting abilities, later-gen moves
22:33 <FIQ> mechanics
22:33 <FIQ> and stuff
22:33 <FIQ> I also want to fix the crappy AI
22:34 <FIQ> but haven't gotten around to it
22:34 <Crawldragon> But yeah Pokemon lot of cherished childhood memories with that series
22:34 <aos> there were a few issues with double battles in gen 3
22:34 <Crawldragon> I remember my mom got me a stuffed Pikachu and I put it up on top of a dirt mound outside my house hoping it would attract real Pokemon
22:34 <aos> some pokemon existed only for them
22:34 <FIQ> aos: faint+switch mechanics
22:34 <FIQ> is the only major thing that comes to mind
22:34 <FIQ> that worked differently in 3gen compared to every other generation where it was included
22:34 <aos> very learnable moves like surf were both very good and affected both enemies
22:35 <FIQ> hm
22:35 <FIQ> surf is the only move that comes to mind whose targeting changed across generations
22:35 <FIQ> since 4gen it also hits your ally
22:36 <FIQ> Crawldragon: haha
22:36 <FIQ> yes, that's how it works :P
22:36 <Crawldragon> but yeah I look at Pokemon now and they have like 900 fucking characters in it and I'm like "Jesus, I can't catch all of _those_!"
22:36 <FIQ> not 900 yet
22:37 <aos> Crawldragon: nowadays, a stuffed pikachu on a dirt mound is pokemon go bait
22:37 <FIQ> 802 I think as of the last gen
22:37 <Crawldragon> Yeah I'm not collecting all 802 of the bastards
22:37 <FIQ> you can't, anyway
22:37 <FIQ> hooray event pokemon
22:37 <Crawldragon> I don't think I've ever beaten any of the games because when I was little I was too young to understand how to play it effectively and nowadays my interest is purely casual.
22:38 <Crawldragon> I might try Red again though just to see if I can do the Mew glitch
22:38 <FIQ> haha that glitch
22:38 <FIQ> the steps for it to work is typical of the kind of ridiculous things people came up with on the schoolyard
22:38 <aos> Well, Pokemon is one game where optimal gameplay isn't fun, and probably wasn't intended to be.
22:38 <FIQ> "to get pikablu you have to defeat the elite four 20 times with a magikarp"
22:39 <Crawldragon> You say that, my boyfriend had buckets of fun competing with players around the world online and writing algorithms to optimize breeding rates for rare Pokemon for the global trade market.
22:39 <aos> EV training, and IV breeding if you _really_ want to be super duper uber optimal.
22:39 <FIQ> allthough the celebi egg glitch in gsc is moreso like that
22:40 <aos> Well, writing algorithms is more fun than actually playing the game to breed the pokemon.
22:40 <FIQ> Crawldragon: I have little motivation to get into the competitive scene due to it being full of cheaters
22:41 <Crawldragon> Yeah, well that's any game.
22:41 <FIQ> it has been proven time and time again that several of the top players just generate their pokemon
22:41 <FIQ> what's the point of competing then
22:42 <Crawldragon> For the CHALLEEEEEENGE!
22:42 <FIQ> I mean
22:42 <FIQ> if it was openly allowed officially
22:42 <FIQ> sure why not
22:42 <aos> Hey, Nethack isn't full of cheaters!
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22:42 <FIQ> I mean, skill is involved either way
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22:42 <FIQ> but now they pretend to disallow it while looking the other direction and letting everyone cheat
22:43 <FIQ> so why should I bother
22:44 <Crawldragon> I don't think my boyf plays Pokemon anymore; he's moved on to those really masochistic Japanese games that have been known to literally wear people out in real life
22:44 <Crawldragon> like Osu!, he did Touhou for a while, now he's in the fighting game genre
22:45 <FIQ> I see
22:45 <Crawldragon> Meanwhile I'm playing adventure games and NetHack and pinball
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22:46 <FIQ> heh
22:46 <aos> windows XP pinball?
22:46 <FIQ> I've considered looking into tohou schmups sometimes
22:46 <FIQ> but never bothered
22:46 <FIQ> was always terrible at them
22:46 <FIQ> xp pinball heh
22:46 <Crawldragon> aos: Actually yes. I have a version of the Windows XP pinball game that someone made for Windows 7, which I play on my current Windows 8 box.
22:46 <FIQ> it has a crash in a lategame mission
22:46 <Crawldragon> I play most of my pinball in Pinball Arcade on my phone, however.
22:47 <FIQ> maelstorm mission crashes on load
22:47 <FIQ> only got that far with debug though
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22:49 <Crawldragon> I did on at least one occasion get to the point in that game where you unlock the time travel mission and go back in time
22:49 <Crawldragon> which was mostly a gimmick so that you didn't end up spending the rest of the game doing the same missions over and over
22:49 <FIQ> what does that mission do
22:50 <FIQ> I don't remember one such mission
22:50 <Crawldragon> You get demoted a couple of ranks and have to do those missions over again to get promoted
22:50 <FIQ> ah
22:50 <Crawldragon> So you get to the highest possible rank which I think is First Admiral or something and it knocks you down to something like General
22:50 <FIQ> ahh
22:51 <FIQ> is this permanent? or do you get past the time travel mission if you get your rank back?
22:51 <Crawldragon> It's permanent, you have to redo the missions to get your rank back
22:51 <FIQ> ok
22:51 <Crawldragon> it's good fun actually because like I said the only other option is to be stuck doing the same three missions over and over until you lose your balls
22:52 <FIQ> yeah makes sense
22:53 <FIQ> hm maybe that mission was the one that kept crashing for me when I was messing arond
22:53 <FIQ> *around
22:54 <FIQ> don't remember, it was a while ago :P
22:54 <Crawldragon> My favorite pinball nowadays is Attack From Mars, which I completed a year or so ago.
22:54 <FIQ> heh
22:56 <Crawldragon> I also like Black Hole which has a really cool mini play area gimmick
22:57 <aos> I looooved NES pinball. Played so much of it.
22:57 <aos> the black hole thing reminded me of it
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23:11 <Beholder> [slex] Yuring (Pok Dro Fem Neu), 4034 points, T:2571, killed by a monster (superpete)