00:18 [sp] phollenback (Ran Elf Fem Neu), 1409 points, T:2379, killed by a wand 01:06 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 01:39 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:49 !tell K2 little slex update :) can you apply it to hdf? thanks! 01:49 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 01:50 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:54 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:54 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 02:06 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:29 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 1042 points, T:1579, killed by a dwarf 02:36 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 02:37 -!- Crawldragon has joined #hardfought 02:58 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:59 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 02:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 03:04 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:05 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 03:05 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 03:06 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 03:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 03:08 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 03:08 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 03:23 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 03:24 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24 -!- elenmirie_ is now known as elenmirie 03:26 Evil Patch idea: add a new terrain type that causes map amnesia if you step on it. And its tile as well as the eight tiles surrounding it are permanently affected by map amnesia, i.e. get wiped once they're no longer in LOS. 03:37 LarienTelrunya: is that honestly more evil than half the stuff in S'EE already? 03:37 It's something that's planned to be added to slex, in fact. :D 03:38 you could probably use its passive amnesia effect to identify it at a distance 03:40 sure, the real implications of that terrain type would be designing levels where the player has to traverse it to get from one stair to the other :D 03:42 how common is digging in your game? 03:43 I'd say it's mandatory to get a pick-axe ASAP, which is usually acquired on one of the first few levels, but I was thinking about making levels that are no-teleport, nondiggable and nonphaseable and have lots of map amnesia terrain 03:44 if you do make such a level type, it probably shouldn't show up in most games 03:47 actually slex has a randomizer code that can replace the walls (or just some randomly selected wall tiles) on special levels with random terrain, so it would be possible for the RNG to say "alright, some walls on Asmodeus' lair are map amnesia terrain today" :) 03:58 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 03:58 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 04:32 -!- Crawldragon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34 -!- Crawldragon has joined #hardfought 04:46 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 05:32 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:7441 05:51 -!- jonadab has joined #hardfought 05:51 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v jonadab] by ChanServ 05:59 -!- hothraxxa has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:08 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 21249 points, T:7902, killed by a soldier ant 06:25 jonadab: Evil Patch idea: add a new terrain type that causes map amnesia if you step on it. And its tile as well as the eight tiles surrounding it are permanently affected by map amnesia, i.e. get wiped once they're no longer in LOS. Preferably a mass of those tiles on a noteleport nodig level. 06:30 LarienTelrunya: evil patch idea: the dungeon starts to collapse when you get the Amulet so you have 2000 turns to get to endgame 06:31 Isn't that thematically similar to what happens already: Gehennom starts literally spewing monsters at you? 06:31 Crawldragon: Message from Grasshopper at 2017-09-03 07:40 EDT: the name "spelunk" for a roguelike-inspired game is already taken 06:31 only some variants do that 06:31 Gehennom only spews monsters in certain variants; in vanilla, you instead have the mysterious force 06:31 Well that's boring 06:31 the best feature overall 06:31 I've considered making moloch smite you randomly when you have the ammy 06:32 FIQ: EPI: after getting the amulet, every 50 turns the lowest dungeon level "falls off" and everything that was on that level gets deleted, including the player if they were on it at that time. 06:32 of cours this still happens if you later lose it 06:32 *course 06:33 LarienTelrunya: can you delete rodney this way? 06:34 FIQ: well if I were to implement that (I won't), I'd make it so that rodney can warp back to you anyway 06:35 Crawldragon: in nethack, "may the force be with you" is a curse rather than a blessing 06:36 also: FIQ: play slex 2.0.5 *bundlebundlebundle* :) the new terrain types might be a source of inspiration for FIQhack as well! 06:36 what are the new terrain types? 06:36 in fact: aosdict: play slex 2.0.5 *bundlebundlebundle* :D you might stumble upon tons of potential YANIs for your list! 06:36 EPI: After you grab the Amulet, there's a 1 in 100 chance every 50 turns that Amy herself appears out of nowhere, snatches the Amulet out of your hands, and says "neener neener" before throwing a high-heeled boot at your head and bamfing away in a puff of logic 06:37 the terrain types include grassland, sand, snow, mountains, styx rivers, nether mist and several others, and new dungeon features like wagons, beds, mattresses, tables, pentagrams etc. exist 06:37 I should probably write a documentation about them 06:37 I'm still trying to figure out what the hell you meant when you said "crystal liquids" 06:37 I think there's technically a scientific definition for that term, but 06:37 haha, crystal water is fun, it's water that clings to the ceiling instead of being on the ground :D 06:38 that sounds like a fucking awesome childrens' toy 06:38 I mean assuming it doesn't glom to any source of heat and instantly suffocate it whenever there isn't a parent in the room 06:39 I should go to bed 06:39 in my imagination it looks roughly like this: https://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/crystal-blue-water-erik-albright.jpg (just imagine this to be the ceiling of a room instead of a surface :D) 06:39 LarienTelrunya: what are the effects of walking on grassland, sand, snow, mountains? 06:39 see I imagined those spiky magnetic fluids you saw in those YouTube videos a couple of years ago 06:40 like ice crystals clinging to the ceiling, only made of liquid rather than solid water 06:40 grassland: increased HP regeneration rate, but the player's melee, ranged and spellcasting capabilities are impaired 06:40 sand: occasionally causes sandstorms, which gives a couple turns of blindness 06:40 I would have thought grassland would increase the probability of spawning pokemon-related monsters 06:40 snow: slows down movement rate to one quarter, can cause snowstorms that give a couple turns of confusion/stun 06:40 that is tall grass 06:40 well I don't mow the lawn very often 06:41 so you have a lot of pokemon in your lawn 06:41 mountains: trying to move on that tile will fail most of the time trying to "scale the mountain", so the player has to move into it repeatedly until he successfully climbs it 06:41 so it works like ADOM mountains 06:41 LarienTelrunya: EPI: does slex have quicksand yet? Looks like regular floor, but if you step on it, you sink in and can't get out (except by teleport)? 06:41 IT should generate on non-teleport levels, of course. 06:41 Question: How the hell can mountains coexist in a manmade dungeon that was presumably hewn 'neath the rock of an already existing mountain? 06:41 it strikes me that these tiles make much more sense in an overworld mode 06:41 styx river: can be traversed even without swimming/unbreathing/flying, but causes dnethack weeping angel contamination 06:42 a la ADOM (and I guess elona too?) 06:42 And in the early game, when you don't have teleport yet. 06:42 jonadab: well I added shifting sand, which is supposed to be like quicksand: stepping into it without flying/levitation kills you in three turns, being pulled underneath it by a drowning monster kills you instantly, and there is no resistance. It's just "bam, you died". 06:42 LarienTelrunya: I recall you deeming dnh weeping angels cruel 06:42 and yet you went ahead and ported it anyway 06:42 Are Amy and jonadab locked in a constant battle to see who can be more evil and unnecessarily harsh? 06:43 Crawldragon: more like cooperation 06:43 Crawldragon: There's a difference. 06:43 true 06:43 Crawldragon: jonadab and me have an agreement, he posts evil patch ideas, I judge them for evilness and then possibly implement them in slex :) 06:43 and you wonder why I'm scared of you 06:43 Crawldragon: One of us thinks this is a list of ideas that are too evil to ever consider implementing. The other does not. 06:44 jonadab: but it's true 06:44 epis are too evil to be implemented anywhere 06:44 you should reconsider your stance 06:44 FIQ: well during junethack I simply wanted to score as many trophies as I could, so anything that hampered my progress was annoying and stupid and unfair :P but now, outside of junethack, I'm able to appreciate the concept 06:44 Haha. 06:45 in a non-junethack context, I actually like the ideas of dnethack's weeping angels, grunthack's tainted-giant-corpse-instakills-you and beholder-instakills-you features, fourk's youre-never-proficient-with-your-main-weapon and your-ac-is-meaningless nerfs, and (begrudgingly) even the ch3at0r elder priest with his ******* tentacle attack. 06:47 LarienTelrunya: EPI: during the month of June only, there's extra lag, 1d(n) seconds after every player input is received before it's processed, where n is the current number of minutes after the hour in real time. 06:47 haha, that could actually be implemented :D 06:48 slex has two different functions for causing artificial lag, one that causes delays between command inputs and one that can randomly decide to pretend you never entered a command 06:48 I should add an autocursing artifact that causes both of these effects at once ;) 06:49 That would surely make all tournament players like your variant best. 06:49 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 06:49 for aosdict... 06:49 GruntHack updated 06:49 :P 06:50 hi K2-webirc! there's a minor slex update :) 06:50 NO 06:50 I'm done updating slex. its too much 06:50 i'm going on strike 06:50 really?! 06:51 ... 06:51 :( 06:51 LarienTelrunya: I want you to look up a word for me 06:51 Don't ask her to look up the word "gullible". 06:51 It's not in the dictionary. 06:51 the word is 'sarcasm' 06:51 lol jonadab the first time I heard that I didn't believe it. 06:52 but it's true! 06:52 K2-webirc: sorry, I've probably gotten too used to kerio, who really meant it when he said "nope I'm not updating" 06:52 how is gullible not in the dictionary? 06:52 LarienTelrunya: wait, hold on 06:52 tainted giant corpses instakill you? 06:52 FIQ: happened to me this junethack in grunthack 06:53 FIQ: Probably because they take a long time to eat? 06:53 wow 06:53 LarienTelrunya: you're almost as bad as FIQ. sometimes I have to bracket things I say with for him ;) 06:53 K2-webirc: It's totally not there! I'm not sure why. 06:53 "Ulch - the meat was tainted! You start eating the giant corpse. You die from your illness. Do you want your possessions identified?" 06:53 Sounds like an emergent effect. 06:53 You get food poisoning from the first bite. 06:53 right. giants take awhile to eat 06:53 Which probably _should_ interrupt you, NH4 style. 06:53 But this is GruntHack. 06:54 jonadab: but tainted food takes 1 turn to eat 06:54 Well sgrunt probably decided to take out the "if tainted, eat it in one turn" part from the vanilla eating function. 06:54 always 06:54 unless grunthack changed it 06:54 probably 06:54 pet choking is a deliberate thing, so... 06:54 I mean, we're talking about grunthack here 06:54 True. 06:54 the closest we had of the Evil Variant 06:54 The annoying thing is that you can't tell the character "heeeeey, over here, stop! you'll die if you continue eating!" 06:54 until slex became a thing 06:55 lol 06:55 LarienTelrunya: you can in NH4+friends 06:55 and nowhere else 06:55 fix it in slex :) 06:55 Yeah, multi-turn actions can be interrupted in NH4 with spacebar. 06:55 Or any other key really. 06:55 FIQ: yeah but in nh4 you have to react quickly, which is IMHO annoying too, roguelikes should not have quick-time events 06:55 you can slow animations down 06:55 LarienTelrunya: That depends on what your animation speed is set to. 06:56 LarienTelrunya: But eating would be interrupted after the first bite if anything bad happened, such as food poisoning. 06:56 action_interrupted yeah 06:56 If you actually want to continue, you'd have to hit the keep-going button or, if you forget what that is, just do the e, again. 06:56 EPI: cutscenes. Interactive ones. If you fail to press space in 3 seconds after the message "press space now", your character dies in the cutscene. 06:56 Ouch. 06:56 Cutscenes. 06:56 I think cutscenes are at LEAST as evil as anything else on the EPI list. 06:57 jonadab: Yes... in nh4. But in Grunthack, it does not interrupt anything, so unless you get lucky and a monster wanders into view, game over. 06:57 ais523: btw, I discovered by accident that you can trick the NH4 main loop to stop multi-action-turns mid-action when replaying 06:57 but NH4 doesn't like that 06:57 LarienTelrunya: i'll update slex when I get home 06:57 and it makes weird things happen 06:57 it better not be 2.0.6 06:57 hahaha 06:58 K2-webirc: do you actually review changes before applying them? 06:58 K2-webirc: Wasn't this the week you're "on location" in the woods all week, camping out? 06:58 for slex? no as I am not provided a list of any for slex 06:58 no I mean 06:58 K2-webirc: There's always git log. 06:58 yeah 06:58 do you review it 06:58 because if not 06:59 why not have an autoupdater 06:59 K2-webirc: it's still 2.0.5 (I'd mention a savebreak if there was one) :) also, sorry for failing to get the sarcasm, I'm like a burnt child that dreads the fire in that regard, but I know you're cool, so, once again, thanks a lot! 06:59 jonadab: nah that was July 06:59 Ah. 06:59 LarienTelrunya: very punny 06:59 I try to review changes 07:00 YASI: punmode option. If you enable it, any message that does not contain a pun isn't printed. 07:00 but juggling 11 variants, half of which get updated on a regular basis... meh 07:00 jonadab: my point is that if K2-webirc doesn't actively review changes 07:00 I should prob make more time to review 07:00 why not take the mindless work of updating off the shoulders 07:00 and have it be done automatically 07:01 FIQ: I like updating it myself 07:01 FIQ: but the autoupdater would have to know when a new version breaks saves 07:01 that's why you put those on a seperate branch 07:01 that way I don't forget what to do 07:01 -!- ais523 has quit [] 07:01 this is why fiqhack's update branch is 4.3.0 07:01 if I make a savebreak 07:01 however unlikely this is 07:01 it would go in 4.3.1 or whatever 07:02 yes 07:02 remember, I was logging my struggles getting a local wizmode copy of grunthack to install correctly because it'd been so long since I had done that 07:02 this is why fiqhack is still on 4.3.0 07:02 last night hah 07:02 and this is why I split up changelogs on the wiki by junethack year 07:02 perishable skill 07:02 to have some semblance of a release cycle 07:02 well the slex update that I pushed today does this: fix result from dipping book of the dead in lava; ski heels can really walk on snow; fix contamination bug that makes it too easy to get decontaminated 07:03 LarienTelrunya: you should take a page from FIQ/jonadab's habits on logging what they change with their variants 07:03 what is contamination for this purpose 07:03 is it like dcss 07:03 can you get mutations 07:03 FIQ: weeping angel contamination; in slex it's just called "contamination" since weeping angels aren't the only source of it 07:03 K2-webirc: Do you have any idea how LONG an slex changelog would be, if it listed all the changes from vanilla NetHack, or even from Slash'EM? 07:03 ok 07:03 That would be the War and Peace of changelogs. 07:04 LarienTelrunya: I know you said trying to play catch up would be a huge undertaking; you could go as far back as 2.0.0 maybe? 07:04 jonadab: this is a feature 07:04 K2-webirc: that would be possible 07:04 and this reminds me, I need to update the wiki with recent changes to grunthack 07:04 I'd use the commit history to make it :) 07:04 and sporkhack for that matter 07:05 see now i'm slacking 07:05 LarienTelrunya: for fiqhack I try to have a rather comprehensive changelog with everything relevant 07:05 K2-webirc: Oh, are you hosting the server on Slackware now? 07:05 ;) 07:05 so far it hasn't gotten out of hand yet 07:05 FIQ: If you do it as you go, it's not a big deal. 07:05 but I guess it probably makes no sense to repeatedly write "added a few scroll labels" or "added new monsters", since it happens so often in slex ;) 07:05 jonadab: there is an IM service called slack 07:05 If you go back years later and try to reconstruct it... pain. 07:06 probably the best one besides IRC in my experience 07:06 mostly because I can actually use my irc client for it, and unlike discord, it works perfectly 07:06 LarienTelrunya: Things like that, you can just figure it's already covered by the existing changelog entry from before. 07:06 unlike discord 07:06 I also don't usually put bugfixes in the changelog, unless they have implications beyond the bugfix. 07:07 hrm 07:07 jonadab: the only bug fix I've mentioned on changelog for fiqhack I think is the protection bug fix 07:07 For example, I'd log it if I fixed the spellbook polymorph bug, because players rely on that to get spells. 07:07 that made you get more def than supposed to 07:07 because it had rather major gameplay implications 07:07 oh 07:07 and that yeah 07:07 Yeah. 07:07 Those sorts of bugfixes are worth mentioning. 07:07 basically 07:07 also, in the changelog, under the "2.0.5" header do I put the most recent change at the top or bottom? 07:07 bugs that people regularly abused 07:07 Yeah. 07:08 or the most significant one? 07:08 either intentionally or unintentionally 07:08 LarienTelrunya: Just be consistent. 07:08 I usually do most recent at top. 07:08 ok :) 07:08 But the important thing is to _have_ a system and stick to it. 07:08 LarienTelrunya: fiqhack's changelog is *mostly* chronological 07:08 there is a few exceptions -- for example, the DSM changes is at the very bottom of 2017 07:08 what jonadab said 07:08 because I made further changes, and mentioned them on top of 2018 07:09 so it was easy to check the details 07:09 On occasion when I modify an existing change, I edit its existing changelog entry, rather than adding a new one. Did a lot of that in the 4.3.0.2 timeframe. 07:10 jonadab: bless the curses interface 07:10 lol 07:11 heheh 07:11 sorry, meant to highlight LarienTelrunya 07:11 libuncursed is a nice pun 07:11 * LarienTelrunya is a die-hard fan of the tty interface 07:12 !tell ais523 you should call libuncursed2 "libblessed" 07:12 Will do, FIQ! 07:12 LarienTelrunya: I have to know 07:12 do you really use wordpad to do edits? 07:12 hahaha 07:12 K2-webirc: but let's be real 07:12 at least it isn't notepad 07:12 K2-webirc: yes 07:13 notepad > wordpad 07:13 LarienTelrunya: noooo 07:13 K2-webirc: that is actually not true 07:13 K2-webirc: Notepad can't actually open text files. 07:13 have you ever heard of notepad++ ? 07:13 A. It can't handle line-ending conventions other than full CRLF. 07:13 wordpad is shit in the sense that it will mess with formatting codes 07:13 if you aren't careful 07:13 yes, I tried doing it with np++ and... well, wordpad works much better for me 07:13 B. It has max filesize limits that were stupid _when it was new in the Windows 3.0 era_. 07:13 but at least wordpad handles line endings sanely 07:13 ... 07:14 I thought they were joking 07:14 jonadab: when I tested compiling fiqhack using the makefile on a windows machine 07:14 I used our family computer so I didn't install anything 07:14 K2-webirc: Why make _up_ jokes when the truth is so much better? 07:14 besides build tools which I later uninstalled 07:14 so I used wordpad 07:14 true 07:14 to edit the makefile 07:14 seriously LarienTelrunya, give notepad++ another chance 07:15 * K2-webirc loves np++ 07:15 K2-webirc: Honestly, I've used Notepad++, I wouldn't recommend it. 07:15 I've used notepad++ 07:15 It requires too much setup. 07:15 it worked fine when I used it way back 07:15 I mean 07:15 jonadab: on windows platform, what would you use then? 07:15 it was better than wordpad 07:15 And the defaults are awful (for things like syntax hilighting). 07:15 so it wasn't a huge bar exactly 07:15 K2-webirc: Me? _I_ would use Emacs. 07:15 notepad++ setup? seriously? 07:15 But for an end user, I wouldn't recommend Emacs either, probably. 07:15 just install and go 07:16 K2-webirc: jonadab doesn't like the colors 07:16 and default settings 07:16 ah 07:16 I like colors 07:16 they are pretty 07:16 from a pure functionality POV 07:16 notepad++ is fine 07:16 for most things 07:16 however IIRC it has perf issues with larger files 07:17 K2-webirc: The colors are characterized by Evil Satanic Blinding White Backgrounds -- even slex isn't that evil -- and it can't be changed in one place, you have to go through and change it separately for each and every type of file you ever want to edit. 07:17 yeah 07:17 that is horrible 07:17 PFE (Programmer's File Editor) is not completely awful. 07:17 but I mean 07:17 But rather old these days. 07:17 back when I used np++ 07:17 I didn't even know you could have proper dark themes 07:17 on windows 07:17 not sure if you can even today 07:18 FIQ: You can, but it's harder to do on Ten than any previous version since 3.0 07:18 setting up a dark theme was among the first things I did when moving to linux 07:18 jonadab: perhaps look into vision impairment stuff 07:18 (Well, if you want high contrast white-on-black, that's easy. If you want any _other_ something-on-not-white theme, you have to create a shortcut to an otherwise non-exposed control panel.) 07:19 stuff like that can generally get away with more customization 07:19 for obvious reasons 07:19 FIQ: The vision impairment stuff is designed to all be high-contrast. 07:19 I want medium-to-low-contrast, specifically. 07:19 mhm 07:19 But like I said, you _can_ do it. 07:19 THe UI for it just isn't exposed by default. 07:19 So you have to create a magic shortcut. 07:20 Hang on, let me open up my Ten laptop here and I'll find the details. 07:20 I recall using JAWS on an xp machine eons ago, not because of its screen reader purposes (which is the main reason you'd use it) but because it had a feature where you could invert colors of the entire screen while keeping the actual colors the same 07:20 so things didn't look completely awful in it but stuff was actually readable 07:20 (it's similar to how deluminate in chromium works on web pages) 07:21 recent update to w10, you can easily choose dark theme now 07:21 Ok, so the not-linked-from-the-Settings-App-or-Control-Panel thing that _does_ exist is called Color and Appearance Properties. 07:21 but is it a real dark theme 07:21 but yeah didn't even know that about np++ 07:21 and not just darkens the title bar 07:21 like most windows themes do 07:21 And to get it, you create a shortcut with the following target: 07:21 which is kinda useless 07:21 C:\Windows\explorer.exe shell:::{ED834ED6-4B5A-4bfe-8F11-A626DCB6A921}-Microsfot.Personalization\pageColorization 07:22 nice line noise 07:22 FIQ: its light text on dark background 07:22 why is it hidden like that 07:22 if it just darkened the title bar I would have said 'it just darkens the title bar' 07:22 jonadab: anyway, stuff like that is what I would expect to be documented for pages on help with vision impairment stuff 07:22 which is why I suggested it 07:23 K2-webirc: ah 07:23 the reason I asked is because back when I tried to set up a dark theme for a windows system a while back 07:23 most "dark themes" darkened the title bar and nothing else 07:24 jonadab: it wouldn't surprise me if microsoft made stuff like this so that their support lines can get money 07:24 Heh. 07:24 for weird undocumented features 07:24 FIQ: I have a different theory. 07:25 Incompetence and miscommunication. 07:25 Have you _looked_ at the Control Panel and the Settings App in Ten? 07:25 It's completely random what is where and what isn't. 07:25 I haven't used w10 a lot but I've seen screenshots 07:25 it basically redid the entire control panel ui 07:25 and now it's a huge pain to find anything 07:26 Basically, the Control Panel is _mostly_ like Seven, but with some things removed because they're different in Ten (which is based on Eight, not Seven, so even though it _has_ a proper desktop added back in, stuff like how windows are drawn is not the same as on Seven). 07:26 jonadab: anyway, it's possible that the feature/UI/whatever is/was experimental 07:26 The Settings App is inherited from Eight. 07:26 and was never properly finished, so they "hid" it 07:26 there is a learning curve navigating w10 interface 07:26 but its not bad 07:26 FIQ: I think they just never got around to deciding where to put it. 07:26 And it wasn't a priority. 07:27 jonadab: yeah but why the line noise 07:27 I've done over 100 OS installs of it, so I know my way arounf fairly well 07:27 that is the part I don't get 07:27 FIQ: Oh, all control panel apps have shortcuts like that. 07:27 if it was just a normal program invocation 07:27 You just don't normally see them. 07:27 like gui_settings.exe 07:27 That's technical details, meant to be under the hood. 07:27 FIQ: No, no, all the things you normally get to by opening the control panel and clicking on them, they have shortcuts like that under the hood. 07:27 Since NT 3.5, I think. 07:27 or, in usual MS fashion and impossible to figure out by trial and error, guicnf.exe 07:27 Not sure about Win9x. 07:28 jonadab: hmm ok 07:28 You just normally don't care because you open the control panel and double click. 07:28 did you know you can now run Ubuntu on w10 without needing a VM? 07:28 https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/commandline/wsl/about 07:28 jonadab: I guess it was never intended to be invoked from a shell 07:29 so they never cared about making the commands make sense 07:29 Yeah. 07:29 K2-webirc: I did 07:29 I mean, rundll is involved. 07:29 WSL 07:29 K2-webirc: Sort of. 07:29 yup 07:29 it works 07:29 K2-webirc: sort of. 07:29 depends on what you want to do and what you need from it 07:29 in some cases, it works perfectly and wonders 07:29 in some it's completely unusable 07:29 K2-webirc: There are limits to what you can do with it. 07:29 And notably, you can't run Windows apps from there and vice versa. 07:30 jonadab: that surprises me 07:30 It caught me off guard too. 07:30 there not being some kind of "winrun /windrive/c/whatever" 07:30 or similar 07:30 I expected to at least be able to run Windows programs from WSL, even if not the otehr way around. 07:30 I mean, Cygwin can. 07:30 yeah 07:31 jonadab: I think it's a todo? 07:31 people have mentioned wanting it 07:31 Oh, maybe. 07:31 and devs replying that they want to look into it 07:46 * LarienTelrunya is working on a slex changelog, and I think it's actually becoming rather beautiful :) 07:52 yay 07:52 \o/ 07:53 LarienTelrunya: the changelog will probably do something evil like cause the reader amnesia or something 07:53 like the rest of slex 07:53 hahaha :D 07:59 ;) 07:59 put a bunch of emoji's and hearts and shit in it 08:00 and randomly put 'bundlebundlebundle' throughout 08:02 K2-webirc: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SLASHEM-Extended/SLASHEM-Extended/d85f51cf9f8bc660746c2c50a2eb72259c62ffba/history2.txt 08:04 arrgh it ate my hearts and transformed them into question marks! 08:05 fixed https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SLASHEM-Extended/SLASHEM-Extended/master/history2.txt :) 08:08 so what do you think? is this a well-formatted and informative history file? I might add older stuff eventually, too ;) 08:10 LarienTelrunya: Do you have graphical tiles support yet? 08:10 ...what? why would I? of course not 08:11 Fourk has graphical tiles support for slashem-16 tiles, dawnhack, RLTiles, and geoduck, and I am planning to add slashem-32 for 4.3.0.5. 08:12 Like the changelog, this is another thing that's easiest if you keep it up all along. 08:12 well slex was never supposed to have graphical tiles support in the first place 08:12 Heh, I should update my random MON generator to also output random tiles for the monsters :-) 08:13 that would probably be required, since slex has monsters like "invincibly chaptering" or "effulgent hinduism" or "reaccredited recalled duplicity yep" now 08:15 What, you don't have mental images of what those would look like? 08:23 nice LarienTelrunya 08:29 LarienTelrunya: when are you going to add ftp daemons on U that breathes megabytes 08:29 haha, is that a ZAPM thing? 08:29 yep 08:30 how did you know :P 08:30 playing zapn during devnull 2015 was a bit annoying 08:30 there was no wiki 08:30 so I had to consult the source to figure out strats lol 08:30 Would gopher daemons be on r? 08:30 There's no zapm wiki? 08:30 well I'd love to add all the zapm monsters but am not sure what they would do in an actual nethack game 08:30 That's... surprising. 08:31 apparently agility or dexterity, I forgot which, is crazy strong there 08:31 high enough points increases your speed 08:31 which is amazing 08:31 LarienTelrunya: But you're sure what "effulgent hinduism" would do in a NetHack game? 08:31 for obvious reasons 08:31 LarienTelrunya: but... 08:31 zapm was *inspired* by nethack 08:31 it's basically nethack in space 08:32 jonadab: sure, the effulgent hinduism has a 4d15 bad effect bite, 5d15 monster-identity nastiness spellcasting and a 9d10 stone edge bite :D 08:32 I think zapm's most unique mechanic that makes it stand out from nethack, aside from the whole space thing, is radiation 08:32 FIQ: sure, but still, what's the nethack equivalent of "megabyte breath"? magic missile breath? 08:32 IIRC megabytes make you slow 08:33 it's the worst of the Us 08:33 FIQ: If I wanted to add a clear ZAPM reference to the hallucinatory monsters list, what would be a good choice? 08:33 luckily during zapm endgame I got a source of teleportation 08:33 so I didn't have to deal with it 08:33 one U did try to breath megabytes at me but missed 08:33 jonadab: hmm 08:33 not sure, I haven't played it outside 2015 devnull 08:34 and I didn't play for long, it's a rather short game 08:34 I haven't played it at all. It's on my long list of roguelikes to _eventually_ try out. 08:34 there's the rodney equavilent, bastard operator from hell, but it's hardly zapm-unique 08:34 jonadab: zapm is a very short game 08:34 well, not *that* short 08:34 but definitely shorter than nethack 08:34 BOfH wouldn't make people think ZAPM, yeah. 08:34 around 1/3 the size I would say 08:35 So longer than Brogue? 08:35 yeah 08:35 it works a bit similar to nethack complation-wise 08:35 Are there branches? 08:35 you go to one place to get some items, then you go somewhere else to get other items, etc 08:35 kinda like nethack 08:35 Or is it more open than that? 08:35 branches yeah 08:35 Ok. 08:36 nethackwiki has a description of what you have to do to actually finish the game 08:36 that was the most I got info-wise, the rest I had to codedive for 08:36 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/ZAPM 08:37 when I played, I generally played a software engineer since they start with floppy disks (scroll equavilent) and a way to use them and can see "BUC" 08:38 oh yeah 08:38 Now I'm trying to imagine what the sci-fi equivalent of a blessed object is. 08:38 zapm has "spell" maintenance 08:38 :P 08:39 jonadab: Blessed in ZAPM is "optimized" 08:39 optimized, debugged, buggy 08:39 uncursed is "debugged" 08:39 Ah. 08:39 [gh] Tangles (Val Dwa Fem Law) killed Croesus, on T:14959 08:39 So it only applies to software, then? 08:39 nah it applies to everything 08:39 well, most things 08:40 Oh. 08:40 not money or energy cells 08:40 Well, even NetHack doesn't apply BUC to gold. 08:40 right 08:40 Though I kind of think it should, and carrying cursed gold should have negative effects <-- EPI 08:40 jonadab: Implement money laundering in NetHack. 08:41 To make money "uncursed". 08:41 IIRC in my winning run I got one of the best mutation powers (spells) in the game early (speed boost) and found a laser pistol to deal with stuff in the distance 08:42 and had general early luck with armor/stuff 08:42 I ended up codediving to figure out how stuff like floppies worked 08:43 and confused effects 08:45 allthough bofh loot was garbage 08:45 he is guranteed to have a "cracked" floppy (can be used forever), for me said floppy was spam 08:46 so I never had any cracked floppies in the end 08:46 What's bofh? 08:46 hey 08:46 Hello FIQ, Welcome to #hardfought 08:46 the ZAPM wiki article has been improved 08:46 it has stuff like a monster list and mutant power list now 08:47 Mandevil: Bastard Operator from Hell 08:47 It is basically ZAPM's version of Rodney 08:47 Oh right. 08:47 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:48 U 13 17 ftp daemon Unix daemon breathing megabytes. Getting hit hoses you which is powerful slow effect (-100, equivalent of being strained). 08:48 fun 08:48 didn't realize the slow effect was that bad 08:49 -!- hothraxxa has joined #hardfought 08:49 ooh lawyer sounds annoying, I never had to deal with that when I played since I never had any cracked floppies that I actually used 08:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v hothraxxa] by ChanServ 08:53 fiq: thanks for the fix. it still happens, do you want to see the error message? 08:54 hothraxxa: press P if you got the initial error msg 08:54 just ignore it, I don't know what caused it 08:54 already did that. got it again 08:54 and can't debug it in the state it was in in your save 08:54 what is the error? 08:55 Error: Displacement mismatch: dx,dy: 79,21 :: actual x,y: 0,0 Location: libnethack/src/mon.c:1983 08:55 hm 08:55 this is after i go downstairs 08:55 just press P 08:55 might be the same monster 08:55 actually it probably is 08:55 already did. i just wanted to know if you need to see more messages 08:55 ok 08:56 if you *still* see messages after pressing P again from here on, please tell 08:56 it shouldn't be the same monster unless it's me or my dog 08:56 and I'll look at save 08:56 will do 08:56 hothraxxa: well what I mean with it being the same monster 08:57 is that the initial message means it found a monster displaced in the wrong source when it was about to remove it 08:57 but it was removed to be replaced with a new one due to revival (I think a troll is involved) 08:57 hence the message appears twice 08:58 got it again. exactly the same message 09:00 hmm ok 09:00 same level? 09:01 [gh] Tangles (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fireproof +5 dragonhide water walking boots of speed named the RNG is coming for you", on T:15310 09:01 ok I think I fixed it 09:01 yes, but not the level where i got it the first time 09:03 !tell K2-webirc pushed a fix I think 09:03 Will do, FIQ! 09:06 jonadab: btw, if you want to mess with zapm, consider PRIME 09:06 it is basically a maintained zapm variant 09:13 [nd] APic (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) genocided class L, on T:36845 09:17 hmm 09:17 dipping an object into a potion of wonder should give it a random object property 09:17 or remove if cursed 09:18 That sounds good. 09:19 can you do that indefinitely? 09:20 h - a unicorn horn of hunger 09:20 aosdict: It would presumably use the potion. 09:20 [nd] APic (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) bribed Asmodeus with 44 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:37115 09:21 aosdict: why would you be able to? it'd obviously be used up 09:21 (Would applying a unicorn horn of hunger do anything that a normal unicorn horn wouldn't?) 09:21 indefinitely, assuming you have farmed for infinite potions or something 09:21 jonadab: it will make you hunger rapidly if you wield it 09:21 or are you just expecting the rarity of the potion to cover for that 09:21 it's harmless otherwise 09:21 FIQ: But not if you apply it? 09:21 aosdict: it has a 3/1000 rarity 09:21 obviously you can wish for it ,but that means spending a wish 09:22 I think this is ok 09:22 since you can't choose property 09:22 jonadab: no 09:22 If you're farming that much, you're gonna get wands of wishing. 09:22 jonadab: but you can't wish for properties directly 09:22 Yes, but those wands can never be used for object properties. 09:22 Yes, but. 09:22 The game is clearly already broken if you've farmed for wands of wishing. 09:23 right 09:23 It's easier to just ascend. 09:23 I think the rarity of this potion is enough to make it balanced 09:23 ok 09:23 note that I would have it work the same way as when you drink it 09:24 i.e. the property can be redundant 09:24 if unlucky 09:25 Will monsters dip their weapons in potions of wonder? 09:26 currently monsters can't dip period 09:26 Ah. 09:26 when I implement it (teach them how holy water works) I will rethink this 09:27 What I still don't understand about fiqhack is, don't you find significantly fewer consumable items (scrolls and potions in particular) lying around because monsters are more likely to pick them up and use them before you? 09:28 I have considered this yes 09:28 and considered increasing deathdrop rate to compensate 09:29 I considered changing deathdrops over to generating on monster creation, instead of death, or even removing it entirely 09:30 lots and lots of farming would be made impossible if you didn't have deathdrops anymore 09:33 [nd] APic (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) killed Juiblex, on T:37491 09:34 Yah, but Farming is fun 09:34 The ones who farm are punished by the Fact that they actually need to waste Time in order to farm 😉 09:50 [nd] APic (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) wished for "blessed ring of levitation", on T:37741 09:54 -!- loli1 has joined #hardfought 09:55 lovely 09:55 https://puu.sh/xs8aN/82de02a5b6.png 09:56 [nd] APic (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) bribed Baalzebub with 300 zorkmids for safe passage, on T:37953 09:59 -!- loli1 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 10:01 [slex] dolores (Kur Ang Fem Cha), 1956 points, T:823, killed by a monster (Andrej) 10:02 back 10:03 battery died 10:03 but what I was going to say was 10:03 that I haven't really noticed a drop in loot 10:03 of course it's there 10:03 just haven't noticed it 10:04 loli: run reset in the terminal 10:08 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 10:08 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 10:14 [slex] dolores (Kur Ang Fem Cha), 2852 points, T:1494, killed by a cowardly attack on her breasts 10:15 -!- mariari has joined #hardfought 10:15 K2-webirc: my grunthack game just segfaulted. 10:17 Should be simple enough to reproduce - I just killed a shopkeeper. 10:19 !tell k2 can you please recover my grunthack game when you get a chance? 10:19 Will do, Tangles! 10:20 I guess it's bedtime anyway... 'night. 10:37 Tangles: will do, i'll be home in a few hours 10:37 K2-webirc: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-05 09:03 EDT: pushed a fix I think 10:37 FIQ: ok, same 10:38 just returned from a meeting 10:38 bleh 10:38 hah, I was betting you wouldn't see FIQ's message because he addressed it to K2-webirc 10:39 People who use altnicks on a regular basis should have them on /hilight though. 10:39 oh I'd still see it. my K2 alias is logged in via znc 10:39 wont miss a thing 10:51 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:51 Whoah 10:52 Orcus summoned Yeenoghu 10:52 He can do that, yes. 10:57 [nd] APic (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) killed the invisible Orcus, on T:38953 10:57 yay 10:57 Now heal up and hope i will manage Yeenough too ☺ 10:58 And hopefully not get Demogorgon also 😉 10:58 I think Orcus can summon Demo but not Yeenoghu 10:58 fiq: you seem to have changed baalzebub but the wiki doesn't mention it 10:58 Good 10:58 4 11:00 Status of Yeenoghu (chaotic): Level 25 HP 30(100) AC -5, stunned, scared. 11:00 [nd] APic (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) killed Yeenoghu, on T:39043 11:00 🙌 11:01 YASI: potion of change alignment so that you can wield the bat from hell and stay lawful 11:02 hothraxxa: 11:02 ? 11:02 the enter was a mistake, sorry 11:03 putting on a blindfold does not prevent his stunning 11:03 bug_sniper: I have like 2 or 3 YASIs from you about alignment changing stuff. 11:03 that is a mistake 11:03 he has a stunning bite, i don't think that's true in vanilla 11:03 I did not change baal I think 11:03 @v?baalzebub 11:03 also he never misses with it. made him a real pain in the arse 11:03 he has a bite poison attack 11:04 and a gaze stun 11:04 aosdict, say the best one first 11:04 in fiqhack 11:04 the gaze stuff is clearly not working correctly 11:04 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 11:04 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 11:05 i finally hit him with one of my paralysis potions and unstunned myself long enough to kill him but it was not easy 11:05 he was doing 1-2 hp damage at a time so no real threat 11:06 except he could, you know, summon help 11:06 pushed a fix 11:06 ty 11:06 of course k2 needs to update to fix it 11:06 well he's dead now. no matter to me 11:06 yeah 11:06 hothraxxa: with that said 11:06 baal not being a threat 11:07 *despite stunlocking you* 11:07 sounds like a problem 11:07 like, there was clearly a bug going on here 11:07 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Client Quit] 11:07 but he should actually be able to pose a threat 11:07 wihtout the bug he would have been trivial 11:07 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 11:07 hothraxxa: I don't consider it a problem that he can be defeated by blinding 11:07 i'm wielding dual-wielding +7 grayswandir and +7 silver saber 11:08 but his main weapon of choice not helping him defeat you is an issue 11:08 when it is in full force 11:08 yeah if he had alternatives he shoulda hit me with them 11:08 ok so I took a look 11:08 the only other attack he has 11:08 is a sting poison 2d6 11:09 that's hardly anything 11:09 no kidding 11:09 like 11:09 but tb honest, i've always found him trivial 11:09 well 11:09 what I am trying to say is 11:09 I want him to be a threat 11:09 in all variants i've met him in 11:09 when his stun actually wrok 11:09 *work 11:10 it worked. big time 11:10 I want all demon lords to be 11:10 yeah exactly 11:10 so he should have been a threat 11:10 but he is not 11:10 -!- jonadab has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:10 well he is because i was shitscared he'd bring in demo 11:10 he is just annoying 11:10 this is bad 11:10 he can't 11:10 it took a long time to beat him 11:10 he's lawful 11:10 oh he can't? i did not know that 11:11 i still have to wash out these underoos 11:11 he can summon dispater and geryon 11:11 dispater is nasty 11:11 dispater is a caster in fiqhack 11:11 so i was right to be scared, just not of demo 11:11 alongside his weapon attack 11:11 dispater is the only demon prince who has hurt me in fh 11:12 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/FIQhack#Dispater 11:12 and i have faced demo 11:12 demo has spells too, but purely for utility 11:12 slow monster+haste self combination and healing 11:12 however i have acid resistance, shouldn't be as scary 11:12 how does acid res help? 11:12 there is no acid spells in fiqhack 11:13 last time he hit me with acid blast several times 11:13 grunthack 11:13 not fiqhack 11:13 oh. i am mixed up 11:13 fiqhack has the vanilla player spells and the new level 7 spells phase, xray, charging 11:14 and summon nasties was made a player spell 11:14 aside from that, monsters merely cast player spells 11:14 so no surprises in that regard 11:18 can those summoned nasties by tame or peaceful? or do you have a spell of charm? 11:19 -!- mariari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:19 they are tame if you summoned them on a hostile monster 11:23 I see 11:24 so many variants 11:24 easy to get mixed up 11:24 what does what 11:25 many variants 11:25 easy to get them mixed up 11:25 which of them do what 11:25 there, I haikuified it for you :P 11:28 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 11:28 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 11:39 -!- jonadab has joined #hardfought 11:39 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v jonadab] by ChanServ 11:41 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 11:42 [nd] APic (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:39911 11:42 [nd] APic (Wiz Elf Mal Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:39912 11:50 jonadab: an interesting thing I am finding with this combat overhaul proposal is that by the midgame, you probably have maximized your to-hit bonus. 11:50 aosdict: rumflump had a nice table 11:53 a table of what? 11:56 until I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume rumflump has a nice hardwood dining room table :) 11:58 https://ethercalc.org/NHForks.html 12:00 I'm not sure what you're getting at 12:02 aosdict │ which of them do what 12:02 I think you mean to address K2? 12:05 but I think K2 was just being poetic too 12:20 anyway, back to combat stuff: because XL and enchantment no longer affect to-hit, once you have max Luck, max skill, and 18 Dex, you can't really go higher unless you wear a ring of increase accuracy. 12:26 Or wear gauntlets of dexterity, I guess. 12:26 you could look at limiting some of those based on XL, ie you can't reach Expert in anything until XL14 12:27 hurgh, that sounds... unpopular 12:28 True. Perhaps luck would be a better stat to limit 12:28 I was thinking in that direction. Luck needs to not be a power spike anyway. 12:28 I think FIQ is on the right track here, with altars never bringing you above 3 Luck and unicorns never giving you more than 1 12:32 make the effect of luck capped at XL/3, ie rnd(5)->[1,2,3,3,3] at XL10 12:33 Less spiky, does not have the player looking for another luck boost every few levels 12:33 Very high luck at low levels has partial effect. 12:36 hmm 12:39 are you proposing this for all Luck-based calculations? 12:40 Yes, unless I'm overlooking some odd interaction. 12:40 Crowning? 12:42 make that capped at XL/2 12:43 you can get crowned starting at XL20. Still quite late by vanilla standards, but not unreasonably so 12:44 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 12:44 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 12:45 -!- K2-webirc has left #hardfought 12:55 or rather for all Luck-based die rolls 12:57 yes, that 12:58 Doesn't remove the incentive to maximize your luck though. 12:58 Because a distribution of [1,2,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3] is a lot better than [1,2,3] 13:04 You keep slightly improving past the midgame as you level up, which is the #1 idea here. 13:06 Just wondering if Luck itself should be effectively capped at XL/3 here. 13:06 That's reasonable too. 13:06 So if you have 11 Luck, at XL7 your Luck roll is [1,2], at XL9 it is [1,2,3], at 12 it is [1,2,3,4] 13:07 Can't ever go above 10. 13:09 But then, in the to-hit formula, maybe it shouldn't be a die roll. 13:10 Though a flat +10 at XL30 would still be way too much. 13:10 Or maybe not, maybe if you actually get yourself to level 30 you ought to be able to hit anything 13:12 But in practice it's generally a lot easier to get from 20 to 30 than to get from 0 to 10 13:13 well, what does luck currently do in this new system? 13:14 1d(Luck/2) as both an attack and defense bonus 13:17 no reason we can't impose XL onto this roll 13:17 1d(max(Luck, XL/3)/2) 13:17 or 13:17 I had wanted to remove XL as a flat bonus 13:17 max(1d(Luck/2), XL/3) 13:18 ^ that gives a flat bonus at high levels 13:18 er, min 13:18 in both cases 13:18 oops 13:21 it could even be 1d(min(Luck, XL/3)) 13:21 no /2 needed 13:22 because that's at most 1d10 13:22 and that's if you get to level 30 13:22 it's only 1d5 if you get to XL14 for the quest and then gain an extra 13:27 Doing the /2 would mean it can never get above 1d5, and would incentivize maxing Luck early 13:28 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 13:29 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37 Alternatively, rather than nerfing the Luck bonus specifically, the XL bonus could act as a restriction for the entire attacker bonus, including situational bonuses. 14:06 [slex] AmyBSOD (Fai Tum Mal Neu) shouted "the permastunned failed existence greets all nethack players )", on T:1834 14:07 what, it can't render a colon? 14:13 colon is the seperator in livelog/xlog 14:13 so no 14:13 ah, I see 14:27 Unless you change it to tab, like 3.6 does. 14:28 Then it can't render a tab. 14:28 [slex] AmyBSOD (Fai Tum Mal Neu) shouted "", on T:2694 14:28 whoops, I thought esc cancels it 14:29 Having seen the trolling people _already_ occasionally get Rodney to do on their behalf in #nethack, I am generally not in favor of the shout feature. Though I suppose the bot can be configured to ignore it if it becomes a problem. 14:30 don't worry, even though I do admit that parts of slex are at least indistinguishable from trolling, I'm not the kind of person that would flood the channel with shout messages :) 14:31 Ah, and since you're the only person who plays slex, we have nothing to worry about? 14:32 do the other variants not have shout? 14:32 I think there might be one other that does, don't remember which. 14:32 Might be Un? Not sure. 14:32 I do seem to recall that the Un livelog is rather spammy. Messages every time somebody saves, or loads a saved game, etc. 14:33 well, if it does become a problem, it would probably be a small task to just edit the code that sends shouts to the livelog and make it prevent that 14:33 Or just make the bot not echo shouts. 14:33 So yeah, I guess I'm worrying prematurely. 14:33 but shouts currently aren't a problem, or are they? 14:33 If it becomes a problem, we can deal with it then. 14:33 Currently, no. 14:34 I'm just being a worry wart. Probably got it from my mom. Ignore. 14:34 ok :) 14:34 hi 14:34 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 14:34 K2: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-09-05 01:49 EDT: little slex update :) can you apply it to hdf? thanks! 14:34 K2: Message from Tangles at 2017-09-05 10:19 EDT: can you please recover my grunthack game when you get a chance? 14:34 hi K2! 14:35 o/ 14:35 compiling slex 14:36 -!- bhaak has joined #hardfought 14:36 yay! thanks! 14:36 LarienTelrunya: komm mal nach #nethack.de, da will ein N00b eine Meinung zu Slashem Extended :) 14:36 Slash'EM Extended updated 14:36 was, wirklich? :D 14:36 K2: awesome! 14:37 wuerde ich je luegen? *treu doof guckend* 14:37 come to #nethack.de some noob is playing slex? 14:37 :D 14:37 haha :D 14:37 not yet 14:37 she has to convince him first 14:37 Janneck 14:38 ahhh 14:42 Unix SlashEMExtended Version 2.0.5 (0601ff8) - last build Tue Sep 5 14:35:43 2017. 14:43 so your time zone is 6 hours earlier than mine apparently, for me it's 20:43 already 14:43 Six hours sounds about right. 14:43 Vermont is on Eastern time, same as Ohio. 14:44 yup 14:44 East of that is Atlantic time (which isn't used in the States, but the far eastern part of Canada uses it). 14:44 The Atlantic ocean swallows a couple of timezones. 14:44 Then you have London time. 14:44 GMT+1 is what Windows says my timezone is 14:44 And yeah, central Europe is an hour east of London. 14:45 That's all ignoring DST. 14:45 Which can throw you off by an hour if one area observes it and the other does not. 14:45 But I think Germany and Vermont both fall on the same side of that. 14:47 !tell Tangles gh game recovered 14:47 Will do, K2! 14:57 K2: did you update fh too? 14:57 there was a gaze bug that hothraxxa encountered 14:57 oops 14:59 FIQhack updated 15:05 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Dwa Fem Law), 5992 points, T:4294, killed by a tiger, while taking off clothes 15:28 -!- Crawldragon has quit [Quit: If beer is liquid bread, what is liquid peanut butter?] 15:32 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Dwa Fem Law), 7870 points, T:7651, killed by a jabberwock 15:55 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 15:57 fiq: Error: Displacement removal failed! Displaced at: 79,21 :: Found at: 0,0 Location: libnethack/src/mon.c:1910 15:57 location is different 15:57 maybe that helps 15:58 there was a troll 15:58 and he's back 16:01 YANI: having grandmaster skill in martial arts allows you to break objects upon striking them 16:01 including weapons wielded by monsters 16:12 I don't think you generally _aim_ for the weapons wielded by monsters 16:12 sure you do 16:12 not if they're edged 16:12 wielding a dbl handed weapons affords you a chance to shatter your opponents weapon 16:13 and yes, you do 16:13 so as a grandmaster they should be able to have a chance to do the same 16:13 havent you ever seen kung fu 16:13 well it's different if you're wielding a weapon. Then you're not attacking the enemy's long sword with your bare hands. 16:13 *grandmaster* 16:15 besides, this isnt nethack: the realistic version 16:15 we're afforded some suspension of belief. it is a dungeon crawl after all 16:16 i know you've seen movies and shows where the martial arts guru catches and breaks swords with their bare hands 16:16 and martial artists break shit with their hands *all the time* 16:17 my monk should be able to break a statue or a door with a punch 16:18 [slex] dolores (Kur Ang Fem Cha), 45120 points, T:5044, killed by a monster (satyr) 16:21 might actually see into making that a thing 16:22 make david carradine proud 16:23 [slex] dolores (Kur Ang Fem Cha), 164 points, T:73, killed by a bolt of fire 16:33 fiq: the error is caused when a troll revives 16:33 -!- Tarmunora_ has joined #hardfought 16:37 -!- Tarmunora__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:38 [gh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 3140 points, T:2472, killed by a kobold king 16:49 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 16:51 hothraxxa: ok 16:52 K2hack 17:06 K2: I can see letting monks hit a statue so hard it falls over and breaks. 17:06 But the thing where they break a stack of cement blocks with their forehead is a discredited trope these days, I think. 17:09 you have to visualize your head hitting a point inside the bricks 17:10 Yeah, and then the doctor tells you to visualize not giving yourself another concussion. 17:13 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Gno Fem Neu), 2822 points, T:5993, killed by a rope golem 17:19 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Dwa Fem Law), 244 points, T:404, killed by a brown mold 17:25 [slex] dolores (Kur Ang Fem Cha), 25899 points, T:3209, poisoned by a gray growth 17:25 You feel that Camaxtli is well-pleased. An object appears at your feet! 17:25 You have a little trouble lifting I - a plain spellbook. 17:25 Haha. 17:26 Well-pleased, but a little confused about the desires of mere mortals, it seems. 17:26 Either that, or he's trying to give you a subtle hint of some kind. 17:27 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28 in fh i have a 50% chance of writing an unknown spellbook since i'm xl25 now 17:29 oh that reminds me 17:29 not sure i want any. there have been a lot of spellbooks in this game 17:29 ais523: would nerfing markers by making blank scrolls/books harder to obtain make sense? 17:30 i.e. have water outright destroy the items, so you have to cancel them (or a lucky poly) to blank it 17:30 jonadab: ^ 17:30 FIQ: you'd better ask someone who grinds more than me 17:30 ais523: Message from FIQ at 2017-09-05 07:12 EDT: you should call libuncursed2 "libblessed" 17:31 also, my rendering library is uncursed because curses and blessings were already taken 17:31 (and because it's a mostly NetHack-specific word) 17:31 oh, didn't know blessings was 17:32 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: You hit the gray growth! You feel deathly sick. You claw the gray growth! You feel much worse.--More--] 17:36 FIQ: That would if anything decrease the _demand_ for magic markers, probably freeing up wishes for other things. 17:37 That might actually be good, though, in combination with wish availability rebalance. 17:37 jonadab: you don't wish for markers because you have spare blank scrolls 17:37 that makes no sense 17:37 Currently, I kind of feel like any time you don't know what else to wish for, you wish for markers. 17:37 you wish for it because you want EA/etc 17:37 this demand would not change 17:37 but markers would be indirectly nerfed 17:37 Yes, but if you don't have the paper to write on, ther'es no point. 17:38 wish for cancellation :) 17:38 means more wish straining 17:38 which I feel is a better approach to wishes than reducing the amount 17:41 ais523: do you think killing damage reduction completely (from AC, not from the half whatever damage trinsics) would be overkill? 17:41 you'd want to give a reward for high AC, but it doesn't need to be that one 17:41 monsters miss more 17:41 that is already a thing 17:41 with more AC 17:42 yes but it doesn't scale 17:42 when ACs are, like, 7 or 8 17:42 then comparing AC to accuracy+d20 makes sense 17:42 as the values of AC and accuracy+10½ are likely to be comparable 17:42 but when the numbers get higher, it's harder for them to be approximately equal 17:43 -35 AC and -45 AC seem fairly similar as numbers go, and play fairly similarly in vanilla 17:43 basically there is 2 ways to go about this the way I see it 17:43 the dnethack route 17:43 that basically inflates damage all around 17:43 but if you're relying on hit chance to differentiate AC, then one of those has a 50% chance more of being hit than the other (that's 50 percentage points, not scaling the hit chance by 1.5) 17:43 or kill damage reduction 17:43 I believe you can change or eliminate damage reduction, but if you do, you need to change the hit chance formula at the same time 17:43 ais523: note that what you say is not true 17:44 at -1 or below 17:44 effective AC is randomized 17:44 between value and -1 17:44 ah right, if you keep that, things make more sense 17:44 this randomization, for whatever reason, only applies to players 17:44 I thought that was just for reduction; is it for accuracy too? 17:44 I've considered addressing this 17:44 and compensate by giving stuff lower AC latergame 17:44 ais523: yes 17:44 one thing I'd recommend as an accuracy formula is d(accuracy) vs. d(Def) 17:44 which is similar 17:45 -!- zombifier has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:48 does anyone have a good handle on the number of active nethack players? 17:49 hothraxxa: Only if you mean the number of _online_ players using public servers. 17:49 (In which case, ask Mandevil.) 17:49 well that's a start 17:50 I believe the number of offline players is much greater 17:50 how about ballparks, anyone have a guess? 17:50 but harder to contact 17:50 The number of offline players is basically impossible to estimate, because the software is freely redistributable. 17:50 So it can get downloaded from Bob's Download Games Site, or wherever. 17:51 And you have no way to ever track that. 17:51 (And downloads isn't the same as _active_ players anyway.) 17:51 what about wiki traffic? 17:51 That could probably be tracked, ask dtype or paxed. 17:51 here are the stats for Debian users who opted into reporting installed packages: https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=nethack 17:51 and of course, Debian is pretty small as OSes go 17:52 Well, not BeOS level small. 17:52 -!- zombifier has joined #hardfought 17:52 But small compared to, say, iOS, yes. 17:52 -!- Menche_ is now known as Menche 17:52 Though I suspect Debian is more strongly represented among NetHack players than among the population at large. 17:53 "vote" is the number of people who are "use this package regularly"; interestingly, nethack-common is used more than the total of all the windowports put together 17:53 is nethack part of a standard install? iow, do those numbers reflect people who sought it out 17:53 oh vote. nm 17:54 there is a reddit /r/nethack whose activity could be used as a relative measure 17:55 I don't think NetHack is in the base install, no. 17:55 yes and there's still activity on usenet too 17:55 Steam doesn't obviously list the number of installs of Vulture for NetHack anywhere, even though I'm pretty sure they count 17:55 Not very much, but yes. 17:55 yes there's still a usenet 17:56 Another problem is it's not straightforward to measure the _overlap_ between these various metrics. 17:56 i was looking just for order of magnitude, really 17:57 hothraxxa: at a wild guess, I'd say it's a 5-digit number 17:57 If we have j reddit users, k usenet personalities, l IRC regulars, and m accounts on public servers, ... that's probably fewer than j+k+l+m people, but. 17:57 but it can be really hard to tell 17:57 jonadab: 3000 Reddit users are subscribed to r/nethack, but Reddit gives little reason to unsubscribe if you stop playing a game 17:57 (that's an approximation, it's probably more now0 17:57 *) 17:58 3000 reddit *account 17:58 *accounts 17:58 And that's another issue with measuring these things. 17:58 the release of 3.6.0 got around 340 upvotes; different Reddit users have different criteria for upvoting, so the number of people who upvote a post is normally less than the number of people who care about it 17:58 I know for a fact I've been on usenet with more than one account, and on IRC with more than one nick. 17:58 i moderate a forum that has 36000 registered accounts. guess how many have been active in the past year 17:58 I think I only ever used one reddit account, but I don't like reddit very much. 17:59 we hates the redditts 17:59 I don't _hate_ reddit, I just find it's usually not worth the bother. 17:59 The SNR is pretty poor. 17:59 And unlike IRC, the interface is irredemably terrible. 18:00 we should move to snapchat 18:00 I'm happy for other people to use reddit as long as they don't expect me to join them. Unlike Discord, which no one should use, because it is _awful_. 18:00 reddit's interface is pretty horrible to someone not familiar with it. and even if you're familiar too, but less so 18:00 zombifier: It's bad, yes. 18:01 like I was totally lost the first time I went on the site 18:01 zombifier: But off the top of my head I can't think of a specific thing for which I can say, "Reddit is $thing but with a terrible interface." 18:02 Reddit suffers from not really knowing what it's for 18:02 it's one of those platforms that lets you create communities, some of which are great, some of which really shouldn't exist 18:02 but it has a one-size-fits-all interface which doesn't really fit any of them 18:02 btw, did you turn subreddit CSS off in your options? if not, you probably should, it makes the place so much more tolerable 18:03 The one good thing about reddit is its markup syntax, which is basically reasonable. 18:04 no it isn't 18:04 it's badly specified and has some very weird bugs 18:04 It's better than, say, PHPBB syntax. 18:04 really? I treat BBcode as an example of good practice compared to Markdown 18:04 Granted, that is a low standard. 18:04 at least the post is likely to come out something like what you envisaged, and if you just write plaintext, you just get plaintext 18:06 My main problems with PHPBB markup are 1. It's trying to be HTML and failing, badly. 2. It's more _complicated_ than HTML, and does _less_. 18:07 A strict subset of HTML, or an _almost_ strict subset (like what Perlmonks does) would be a lot better. 18:07 yes; apart from [url=] (which is very useful), HTML is mostly just better 18:07 IIRC, Slashdot uses HTML except with an tag 18:07 I always used extrans on Slashdot. 18:08 Which is the "this is text, run it through encode_entities please" option. 18:08 But I was never tempted to post anything to Slashdot that was complicated enough to really need markup. 18:09 Nothing like, say, that huge April Fools writeup I crossposted to at least three subreddits. 18:16 [fh] hothraxxa (Arc Hum Fem Neu) wished for "uncursed lit magic marker named pg wodehouse", on T:46524 18:18 i'm ac -64 18:18 a new record for me 18:19 i have 5 items that aren't maxed. i could reach -69 18:22 how can you be so high 18:22 what did you do 18:22 it's fh 18:22 i am maintaining protection and i have a +4 ring 18:23 i could try for higher by charging some more rings 18:23 or lower 18:23 and draining the +4s to get them to +5 18:23 so it wouldn't be hard to get well into the -70s 18:24 aside from the spell maintenance, you could do this in vanilla 18:54 i have a tame incubus. he's such a darling 19:02 the shout feature does not escape colons? Some fun to be had there, I think.... 19:02 Tangles: Message from K2 at 2017-09-05 14:47 EDT: gh game recovered 19:02 Thanks k2 19:02 o/ 19:02 \o 19:03 Actually, should probably look at that in livelogging in general, particularly for wishing. 19:03 hows it goin? 19:04 good... gotta run shortly. work today :( 19:04 * K2 nods 19:04 i am watching my kid do yoga 19:04 K2: I just checked my grunt game. It immediately segfaulted again :( 19:05 ugh 19:05 there werent any files to recover 19:05 just an emergency save 19:05 5Tangles.e.gz 19:05 lemme look again 19:05 hmm ok. Well that's annoying. 19:06 oh wait 19:06 one sec 19:06 this is odd... 19:06 but may work 19:08 ok try again please 19:08 pffft 19:08 Nope same. Let me try something. 19:08 ok 19:09 no I just get the destroy old game prompt now 19:09 dont 19:09 one more thing i can try 19:09 I said no, but then it hangs 19:09 that may be my connection 19:10 ok try again when you can please 19:10 Is there still a process running? 19:11 wait one 19:11 hothraxxa: but I fixed the protection bugs 19:12 Tangles: yeah 3 19:12 lemme kill them 19:13 ok clear 19:13 fiq: possibly not. that was the peak, but it settles down in the high 50s 19:13 Tangles: can try again 19:13 ah that looks better 19:13 i'll know my ac without a spell shortly, due to an unfortunate misunderstanding with Sirius Fudd 19:13 ok I got program in disorder... but this does look better 19:14 and i posted the paniclog in dev channel 19:14 much like what you just saw 19:14 Thanks K2! That looks good now. 19:14 \o/ 19:15 I'm just going to park it until tonight though. 19:15 ok 19:27 -!- Tarmunora__ has joined #hardfought 19:31 -!- Tarmunora_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:41 hothraxxa: so the bug is still there? :( 19:58 fiq: i'm not sure, but i guess so. there seems to be an initial boost that's larger and then it settles down to a lower value 19:58 also, my game loads instantly now. amazing 20:05 hothraxxa: initial boost that is larger? is that because you take off armor? 20:05 when påutting on armor, the additional AC will stay but cool down 20:05 it does this in vanilla too 20:05 (kind of) 20:06 i don't recall taking off armor, but i might have not been fully dressed 20:06 i think it's stopped now. i'm ac -51 20:06 i'll recast it 20:07 should i undress first? 20:08 i'm naked ac -4 20:08 no peeking 20:09 now i'm -13 20:09 -19 20:09 -21. it's busticated for sure 20:10 settled at -19 20:11 and -66 all dressed 20:12 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 20:12 Wait, does spell maint make it strategically meaningful to strip before casting (and maintaining) protection, then redress? 20:12 i don't know about that. it seems to be exploitable by stopping and restarting periodically 20:12 jonadab: I assume Pw would start leaking faster if you did that 20:13 turned off maintenance 20:14 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14 -!- Tarmunora_ has joined #hardfought 20:18 now i cast it while fully dressed. -56 (from -51) 20:18 -!- Tarmunora__ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:19 and it's steady. so the bug is caused by adding armor after casting it 20:22 agging just one piece doesn't trigger it. i suspect you have to be naked 20:22 adding 20:42 -!- Tarmunora__ has joined #hardfought 20:45 -!- Tarmunora_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:55 YANI: dipping arrows in a silver potion makes them silver arrows 20:55 but why stop there? 20:56 spears, daggers too? 20:57 I considered mentioning them too 20:57 the main difference is that spears and daggers are nonconsumable 20:58 is silver actually a type of potion? 20:58 * aosdict checks, it appears not 21:01 I wasn't sure either 21:01 we could make it one, I guess? 21:01 either as a randomized appearance or purely for the purpose of silvercoating stuff 21:01 (would it work on DSM? shields?) 21:02 (spellbooks?) 21:02 realistically of course a silver potion is not molten silver but NHINRL 21:03 it could be made of silver paint, which could I think contain silver as an ingredient? not 100% sure on that 21:04 An idea I've had and just remembered is putting some very expensive silversmith in the game, who will make silver items or silvercoat items by melting down junk silver items and taking a very hefty payment 21:04 seems a bit dnethacky 21:04 but it could work as a shopkeeper service or something 21:05 shopkeeper services seemed awkward to me UI-wise 21:05 I guess it'd work better as a separate type of monster in a special room 21:05 who reacted on #chat-ting 21:05 basically like an aligned priest 21:05 A silversmith in a forge room? 21:06 There could also be goldsmiths, blacksmiths, etc. 21:06 In case you want something made from gold or iron or whatever. 21:06 right 21:06 And then if you can build a forge over lava, creating a magma forge... 21:06 although I can't immediately think of a situation in which iron-ing something would be useful 21:06 There's only one gold item in vanilla, of course 21:07 making a wand into an iron wand, perhaps? 21:07 flagging as yani: ^^ all of this 21:07 aosdict: I'd call it YASI. 21:07 NetHack very much seems to have a flavour of "the appearance determines the function even if it makes no logical sense" 21:07 jonadab: well, having some way to make silver arrows in quantity seems strategically useful 21:08 although, doesn't Fourk increase their random generation? 21:08 Only in Gehennom. 21:08 I can split it into discrete yanis and yasis later. 21:08 The thing with a silversmith is I would probably put him quite late in the game, not someone you can randomly stumble into on DL10 21:09 jonadab: they aren't too useful pre-Gehennom anyway 21:09 ais523: True. 21:09 actually silver items make a lot of sense as a Gehennom grindable 21:09 My reason for making silver items hard to find outside Gehennom and easier to find in Gehennom was, I was trying to think of something the player might still _want_ post-Castle. 21:10 Silver weapons seemed logical. 21:10 The Gehennom Fun Patch also had silver darts; I haven't done that in Fourk yet, though I likely should. 21:10 I definitely agree with the variants that add a normal saber weapon and don't let the player get them for cheap off captains 21:10 s/them/silver sabers/ 21:10 Yes, GeFuPa did that too, steel sabers outside Gehennom. 21:10 Haven't done that in Fourk yet either, should. 21:17 aosdict: dnethack has potions of silver starlight which deal 3 dice of silver damage when thrown. I've always thought the player should be able to #dip weapons into them to get a temporary 'silver poison'. 21:19 Yes, silvering attained by #dip should wear off through use, similar to poison. 21:23 oh, that makes sense 21:23 should it only work on ammo or on everything? 21:23 If it wears off, I see no balance reason why it shouldn't work on any weapon. 21:24 Also, it could (and poison for that matter could) wear off a bit more slowly than poison does currently, and still not be unbalanced, IMO. 21:24 you can't poison melee weapons, even though poison wears off 21:24 not saying that's a good idea, just that I assume there was a reason at one point 21:25 True. 21:33 NeroOneTrueKing: difference is, the potions' actual type is that. doing it based on randomized appearance could be interesting 21:34 as in, you might be sacrificing your potions of extra healing, or maybe instead using up useless potions of hallucination? 21:35 precisely 21:35 what if the potion already has a dip effect, though? 21:35 polymorph would be the biggest issue 21:35 (also, what if the randomized appearance randomly isn't used? or would you remove that mechanic?) 21:36 ais523: the only reason I can think of for why silver items shouldn't be a gehennom grindable is that it doesn't make too much flavor sense 21:36 [fh] hothraxxa (Arc Hum Fem Neu) performed the invocation, on T:48144 21:36 it does, though, IMO; weapons tend to be used more if they're more effective 21:36 so in gehennom, if you want a weapon to defend yourself, silver would be a good choice 21:36 what happens if you wield a silver weapon as a demon, incidentally? 21:37 smoky and milky might not be used, and that doesn't seem to be a problem 21:37 -!- mariari has joined #hardfought 21:37 (regarding if the random appearance isn't used) 21:37 I think I'm misinterpreting what you meant by "grindable"? 21:37 aosdict: something that will eventually drop if you stay on the same level killing monsters 21:39 so I'm not completely clear why Gehennom, which is full of silver haters, would have a higher incidence of silver (for non-gameplay reasons) 21:39 aosdict: it'd have a higher incidence /because/ it's full of silver haters; you don't use weapons because they're safe, you use them because they kill things 21:40 a silver weapon would be dangerous for the user in Gehennom (and even then, not always, e.g. mind flayers would definitely use one), but even more dangerous for the target 21:40 -!- mariari has quit [Client Quit] 21:41 hm 22:12 -!- ais523 has quit [] 22:51 jonadab: should dipping some more fragile silver items (like arrows) into acid create a silvery potion? 22:59 hothraxxa: so 22:59 let me get this straight 22:59 you use prot when undressed 22:59 then put on full armor 23:00 and it settles at -66? 23:01 hothraxxa: can't reproduce 23:01 I have AC:10 23:01 I cast protection and maintain it until I have -10AC 23:02 then I put on a +50 ring of protection 23:02 (base AC is now -40) 23:02 it starts decreasing until it reaches -45 23:02 which is the same I get if I cast from -40 to begin with 23:02 'this is exactly how it works in vanilla 23:03 fh used to have an issue where overprotection would get stuck 23:03 if maintained 23:03 which was rather abuseable 23:03 and not how it works in vanilla 23:03 but vanilla will work similarly when it comes to temporary overprotection 23:13 !tell K2 pushed an update that fades overprotection rapidly 23:13 Will do, FIQ! 23:13 hothraxxa: this should remove the venue for tedium by repeatedly putting on/taking off armor for temporary AC boosts over the "neutral" level