00:05 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 00:52 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 00:52 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 01:31 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:2138 01:43 Uh? What's that death message? 01:48 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law), 2375 points, T:7100, killed by a giant spider 01:52 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming an orange dragon, on T:3480 01:55 As you kick the door, it crashes open! You hear a door open. 02:07 -!- elenmirie_ has joined #hardfought 02:07 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:07 -!- elenmirie_ is now known as elenmirie 02:35 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 6615 points, T:3744, poisoned by a rotted gnomish wizard corpse 02:38 Fikkie picks up an empty unlocked chest. 02:38 showoff dog 02:39 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law), 3587 points, T:5920, killed by a giant spider 02:39 spiders are my bane 02:57 [dnh] yrchard (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 2106 points, T:5387, killed by a vampire 03:06 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:02 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 05:02 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 05:58 Mandevil: that wasn't a death message, it's beholder's way to tell us that someone made excalibur 05:58 Mandevil: the watery tart thing 05:59 Oh. 05:59 That's very odd way to say that. 06:07 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:59 Mandevil: it's from monty python and the holy grail ;) 07:04 Ah. 07:31 -!- Crawldragon360 has joined #hardfought 07:33 -!- Crawldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:34 -!- Crawldragon360 is now known as Crawldragon 07:51 -!- nymphet has joined #hardfought 08:11 -!- nymphet has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:08 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 09:27 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:40 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 09:52 [slex] morgoth (Zyb Spe Fem Law), 873 points, T:518, killed by a monster (malkuth sephirah) 09:59 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 10:11 [slex] morgoth (Zyb Spe Mal Cha), 7718 points, T:3111, killed by a solar beam 10:20 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Gno Fem Neu), 3270 points, T:2803, killed by a werewolf 10:23 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Gno Fem Neu), 272 points, T:403, killed by a gas spore's explosion 11:11 yani: hitting stuff with a unicorn horn will cure it of any status afflictions it has 11:38 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 11:38 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 11:42 aosdict: interesting idea 11:42 aosdict: What if the unicorn horn is cursed? 11:42 is curing yourself of an unihorn status when you stab yourself with it? :P 11:43 in any case that would be an interesting, allbeit silly, nerf to unihorns 11:43 And a strange buff to cursed unicorn horns. 11:43 kind of, yeah 11:43 Not sure anyone would willingly wield one even then. 11:43 but it still makes you have no free hands 11:43 YEs. 11:44 Magicbane seems like the safer way to confuse and stun your enemies, and deadly illness takes enough turns to probably not be worth it. 11:44 Mandevil: I find the excal livelog message rather silly myself 11:45 jonadab: slex has an interesting nerf to unihorns 11:45 one of the few nerfs in slex that actually makes somewhat sense IMO 11:45 Oh? 11:45 it has a chance to disenchant the unihorn, kinda similar to what 4k does when it restores attributes 11:45 isn't that just a regular Slash'EM thing? 11:45 and when it goes below +0 it crumbles 11:45 ais523: Slash'EM made unihorn curing be based off enchantment 11:46 but I'm fairly sure the disenchanting is slex-original 11:46 I'm actually thinking of revising my unicorn nerf to "only cures status afflictions, no restoring lost attributes." 11:46 +horn 11:46 Yeah, I would personally agree with that 11:46 Either that 11:46 Or make it restore attributes *last* 11:46 So that restoring attributes+disenchanting doesn't interfere with its normal function 11:46 jonadab: there's some sort of gameplay/flavour contradiction here 11:46 which I find more frustrating than anything 11:47 in the mythology, unihorns cure diseases, which would translate to "/only/ restores lost attributes" 11:47 wait, that's poisons 11:47 now I'm confused 11:47 ais523: Eh? That would translate to only restoring illness 11:47 ais523: Fatal illness doesn't count as a disease? 11:47 sorry, this is one of those times when my thoughts are internally inconsistent and I didn't notice until I told someone else 11:47 you may as well just ignore me until I've figured out what I meant to say 11:48 Heh 11:48 which will probably involve an encyclopedia when I'm not at work 11:48 Ah. 11:48 Speaking of work, I should go shower soon, as there's a small chance I'm expected to show up today. And by small I mean no more than 100% tops. 11:49 jonadab: and no less than 0%? 11:49 80% of the time it happens 100% of the time 11:50 It's ten till noon now; but it's Friday, so I don't have to be in until 1. 11:50 ais523: btw, one thing I noticed while playing ADOM 11:50 (Because I close Friday nights.) 11:50 1: I forgot how terrible the 3.4.3 *vanilla* UI was (ADOM's has similar shortcomings) 11:50 2: you can actually have an A menu that isn't completely insane 11:50 So "soon" really does only mean soon, not immediately. 11:51 s/one thing/some things/ 11:51 how long does re-equipping take in ADOM? 11:52 re-equipping body armor takes several actions, not sure how many, the game is rather opaque with how long it takes (due to how the equip UI works) 11:52 anything else can be changed in bulk, all in a single turn 11:52 No watching your dog dance around the map for n turns while it happens? (I love that about NH4.) 11:52 jonadab: well 11:52 Yeah, I know, you don't start with a dog in ADOM. 11:52 ADOM's *only* equip UI is somewhat similar, allthough much saner, to the NH4 A menu 11:53 FIQ: the bulk changes would simplify the A UI somewhat 11:53 ais523: well 11:53 it's as complex as it is because it needs to handle the case of an interrupted equpiment change in the past 11:53 you can get away with having it similar to the A menu 11:53 and then have something like 11:53 "enter: apply changes, esc: cancel" 11:54 right, something like that might help 11:54 I guess we'd actually want that hint on the UI 11:55 what do we do in cases where the player was previously interrupted, opens the A menu to see the current status of that, and then decides to leave it in the interrupted state, rather than cancelling or applying? 11:55 or is that not a big deal? 11:57 I think "interrupt the requested transformation at zero turns complete" is probably not the best reaction to closing the dialog, though 11:57 (which is the current NH4 reaction, IIRC) 11:57 ais523: http://sprunge.us/ONXC 11:57 this is how the ADOM equipment UI works, to clarify 11:58 FIQ: the case that ADOM doesn't handle well is the case that NH4 doesn't handle well 11:58 (a multi-turn equip) 11:58 so bringing up ADOM as an example of good practice isn't ideal here 11:58 Right, but I think the general idea can work 11:58 Just that instead of a single turn 11:58 it takes as long as, whatever amount it takes 11:58 when you are finished, so to speka 11:58 *speak 11:58 what happens if a monster turns up during that time? 11:59 current NH4 behaviour? 11:59 (and don't have the weird special case with body armor) 11:59 Yes, IMO if you are interrupted, you wear whatever you are wearing now when half-done 11:59 and pressing A again continues whatever you was doing 12:00 assuming you didn't somehow lose whatever you was going to wear 12:00 Of course then you can get interrupted by a nymph stealing your half-equipped helm of brilliance. 12:00 But yah. 12:00 jonadab: Not different from current really 12:00 My problem is that pressing the "remove all equipment" option doesn't. 12:00 ais523: my main issue with the A UI is how awkward it is to actually set it up as you want 12:01 Which is the only thing I want the A menu for. 12:01 the general idea IMO makes sense 12:01 jonadab: you think it should remove it immediately without a confirm? 12:01 ais523: basically what I want 12:01 maybe it'd be clearer with an explicit "press Return to confirm" (or whatever key we end up with) 12:01 It doesn't ask for confirm either. It just does nothing. 12:01 is to remove the "diff", and make actually selecting things more streamlined, by making it similar to how it works in ADOM 12:01 jonadab: it sets the set of scheduled equipment changes to remove every slot 12:02 then there's a key to actually make those changes 12:02 And actually, yes, since it's now two keystrokes (A plus remove), it probably doesn't need an additional confirmation. 12:02 which is currently just a letter 12:02 In vanilla it's, what, Ay? 12:02 no 12:02 A.Return I think 12:02 vanilla A has 3 equipment 12:02 Oh, maybe. 12:02 er, 3 selections 12:02 which removes various things 12:02 anyway, I have much bigger rework plans for the A menu 12:03 but they may be a long way down the line 12:03 (it's part of the mouse interface plans) 12:03 Eeeeh. 12:03 Aa removes everything, armor and jewelry and weapons 12:03 like, not specific to using a mouse 12:03 Anything designed for a mouse interface seems unlikely to create an intuitive UI for keyboard users. 12:03 * raisse gets dressed again 12:03 but that forces something of a screen redesign 12:03 ais523: basically this is how I want the A menu to work 12:03 jonadab: think about it this way: suppose you have a few inventory letters that are specific to equipped items, and you can equip items with #adjust 12:04 you press a button corresponding to a slot 12:04 that's pretty intuitive, isn't it? although clunky with the current UI 12:04 oh wow 12:04 the aim would just be to make that less clunky 12:04 you get a list of the appropriate things to wear on that slot 12:04 yes, I'd like that 12:04 Also, I don't care whether weapons are removed or not, because the normal use case is you're going to drop everything as soon as you get it all removed. And you can drop weapons without unwielding them. 12:04 whatever I put in the 'a' slot is my wielded weapon 12:04 unless the slot is filled 12:04 in which it empties it 12:05 and then have A/B/C quick-shortcuts to those who want the NH3 A menu 12:05 and when you are happy with the changes 12:05 just press enter 12:05 Actually, you know what? If I use D to drop things, and select stuff that's equipped, instead of telling me no, the game could ask "Some of the items you want to drop are equipped. Unequip them? (y/n)" 12:05 or space or whatever that isn't esc 12:05 jonadab: yes! 12:05 Except that's a y/n prompt, which is not ideal. Hmm. 12:06 jonadab: prompts are OK for menu interactions 12:06 But there should be some way to handle this reasonably. 12:06 it's movement/similar where it isn't ideal 12:06 like the quiver prompt does now when you're wielding a bunch of daggers or spears 12:06 (and then it autopicksup into the quiver, not into the wield slot, which I LOVE) 12:06 it autopickups 12:06 whatever 12:07 Yes, I saw that in the 3.6 changelog, I think. 12:07 Err, git log. 12:07 jonadab: what about this? the D menu only lists unequipped items by default, but there's a key you can express to list equipped items too (this would be a general behaviour of menus, not just the D menu) 12:07 and then it drops withotu a confirm 12:07 ais523: That might work. 12:07 Yeah. 12:08 that would have the same effect as for instance D[a now, without the "You can't drop something you're wearing" spam. 12:08 What would the key be? Does * currently do anything in the D menu? 12:08 it's a pity we already have * to mean "all items, even silly ones", as "items + equipment" would be a good meaning for that 12:08 ais523: i.e. I want to remove the diff, I want it to immediately list choices from inventory, I want more removal options, I want to be able to use normal confirmation buttons rather than a specific letter to confirm 12:08 jonadab: yes, that drops stones 12:08 FIQ: yes, I think I'm understanding the problem a bit better now 12:08 and I want it to be easier to unequip things 12:08 raisse: Oh, right. 12:09 ais523: use ) or [ 12:09 wait 12:09 that is weapon/armor symbol already 12:09 I am silly 12:09 but um 12:09 in general 12:10 the inventory category selections 12:10 use letters for "special filters" 12:10 well why not ], you're not carrying mimics 12:10 so just use e? 12:10 B is blessed, U is uncuresed, C is cursed, X is non-BUC-IDed, I is unidentified, u is unpaid 12:11 so e can be equipment I thknk 12:11 or w for worn/wielded items 12:11 do you mean "equipped" or "could be equipped but isn't"? 12:11 I mean equipped 12:11 so w is less ambiguous 12:11 -!- nymphet has joined #hardfought 12:11 since it's clearly things you have worn/wielded 12:12 yeah 12:12 w works because you can also use lowercase of the first few letters to select categories 12:12 Is the idea here to merge the P, T, W, A, R, and maybe w commnds into one or two commands? 12:12 meaning e is generally unavailable 12:12 aosdict: no 12:13 the idea is to filter out worn/wielded items from things to put into the bag, drop on the ground, or similar 12:13 unless you explicitly ask for it 12:13 this is very compatible with my future UI ideas 12:13 ANd if you do explicitly ask for it, _unequip them and let you do it_. 12:14 it's nontrivial code-wise, you have to handle things like cursed items, being interrupted halfway through the unequip+drop, etc. 12:14 but the UI improvements would be worth it 12:14 ais523: btw 12:15 I was going to change how timers work 12:15 basically the idea was 12:15 use what is currently obj->age 12:15 to define object-based timers 12:15 ->age is used for a ton of different things throughout the code 12:15 and a flag for "the timer is enabled" 12:15 and I'm not sure if anyone's made a list of all of them yet 12:15 so that might lead to some interesting clashes 12:15 (corpse timers are an obvious issue, though, given that corpse age is very relevant) 12:16 keep the timer linked lists, but only have it for level-based timers 12:16 (I think the only case here is thunderstorms) 12:16 also are you going to iterate all objects on every turn? 12:16 or are the timer linked lists going to be intrusive lists through the objects? 12:17 and then I was going to iterate through all objects in the entire game once per turn to decrease the timer if active 12:17 this should not be a performance issue since it's only done once 12:17 and the save code already does this anyway 12:17 (performance is O(n)) 12:18 right 12:18 and even in the save code, the main performance issue is diffing rather than the actual iteration 12:18 ais523: I was going to do intrusive changes on how corpse age in particular works 12:19 basing it on the length of time left rather than the length of time since drop? 12:19 Because I figured the details on exactly how it works wasn't important 12:19 (and I am also not a fan of its randomness) 12:20 After all, there is bugs in that code as-is 12:20 Bleech! Rotten food! for food that has existed for 3 turns 12:20 not in 3.6, I don't think? 12:20 that was a misplaced paren in 3.4.3 12:21 ais523: I was going to base it on BUC + make age more consistent/not rnz-dependant 12:22 blessing a corpse should prevent it ever being bletchy or tainted 12:22 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:22 but still rot away when enough time has passed? 12:23 I still kind of like the idea that _all_ food will rot away when enough time has passed... 12:23 food rations, tins and lizard corpses, too? 12:23 not tins, and not lizard/lichen corpses. But everything else. 12:24 then "enough" should be a lot more for food that's meant to be durable 12:24 a ration should take longer to rot away than a corpse 12:24 oh, certainly 12:24 this is what I had in mind: http://sprunge.us/bBEY 12:24 I suspect that food rations are too common past the early game 12:24 for corpses in particular 12:24 (and possibly too rare on the first few levels) 12:25 you'd expect to find most of them on the first few levels anyway, dropped by adventurers who didn't get very far :-) 12:25 raisse: this was the first thing I stuck up on the balance issue list https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Phol_ende_wodan/Balance_issues 12:25 for permafood, I was going to set a timer to around 1000 (arbitary, but somewhat high) and when it reaches 0, on 1/7 of food stacks, set rot status and from that point, *all* the food in that stack gives "Bleech! Rotten food!" 12:26 (the other 6/7 times, reset the timer) 12:26 what happens when you subsequently merge rotten and nonrotten stacks? 12:26 You can't 12:26 would rottenness show up as an adjective? 12:27 I like what grunthack does with corpses 12:27 This is much better than how vanilla does it atm (where you can do this, and the outcome is based on the internal order of the merging) 12:27 it doesn't say they're rotten, but it says "smelly" or "off-color" or whatever 12:27 where is food rottenness stored, anyway? 12:27 ais523: Corpse rotness would show up, permafood rotness would need you to ID it to know it's rotten or not 12:27 in orotten 12:27 hmm, right 12:27 which already exist in vanilla 12:27 the obvious places for me would be either oeroded or spe 12:27 but it's rather awkwardly used 12:27 orotten is mapped to oeroded 12:28 it's already a thing 12:28 just... vanilla use of it is stupid 12:28 oh, two names for the same variable, right 12:28 can you stack rusty arrows with nonrusty arrows? 12:28 no 12:28 but if the oeroded state "doesn't matter" 12:28 (which is the case for food IIRC) 12:28 FIQ: make sure to add rotproofing of food! :) 12:28 you can 12:28 right 12:29 aosdict: there is a slow-burning discussion about rotproof c corpses, I think 12:30 oh I wasn't thinking of rotproofing as preventing corpses from rotting away. Just from preventing them from going Blecch! type rotten. 12:30 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:30 a rotproof corpse rotting away would at least be surprising 12:31 I think aosdict is suggesting to allow you to make rotproof permafood 12:31 not corpses 12:31 yes 12:31 aha 12:31 maybe you simply can't rotproof corpses 12:31 what game mechanic does that? confused food detection? 12:31 that would be an interesting use of food detection 12:32 (what does confused ?oFD do anyway?) 12:32 the obvious choice would be confused enchant weapon 12:32 it finds potions 12:32 FIQ: then you'd have to explain why it doesn't work on wielded armour 12:32 ais523: it should 12:32 confused EW should be able to erodeproof anything 12:32 if it can be erodeproofed at all, that is 12:32 should nonconfused EW enchant anything? 12:32 no 12:32 well, weapons 12:32 note that this is quite a major balance change to the game 12:33 because you get more EW than you need, and less EA than you need 12:33 so everyone would just use EW to erodeproof armour 12:33 erodeproofing armor does't do much 12:33 it generally gives you 0-3 extra AC 12:33 generally 1 12:33 maybe if you imported grunt burning away armor? 12:33 or eroding away, or whatever 12:34 aosdict: I wanted this to allow players to be able to have additional means of protecting certain things from burning up/etc 12:34 from item destruction 12:34 Also, I don't actually mind that change grunthack did 12:34 Just I think it happens too easily 12:34 If oeroded had, say, 6 stages 12:34 then it would make more sense I thin 12:34 or 20 stages and each hit increased it by some random amount based on source 12:35 16 stages to make it fit in a bitfield(4)? 12:36 it isn't the 80s anymore 12:36 we don't need to 12:36 FIQ: yes, the annoying thing in grunthack is fire explosions from trapped doors 12:36 besides, I think eroded is a char 12:37 if you think grunt fireball doors is bad 12:37 you haven't seen ADOM door traps 12:37 ADOM has item destruction as its middle name 12:37 so much item destruction 12:37 some sources you can't protect against 12:38 Oh, I don't have a problem with the fireball explosions themselves. I have a problem with them meaning you _should_ be #untrapping every closed door you come across relentlessly. 12:39 #untrap (and to some extent s) are broken as mechanics 12:40 interesting, how do you think so? 12:40 because it's basically entirely down to "how much time do you want to spend checking" and "even when you find a trap it's best to just ignore the item it's on" 12:41 fiqhack fixes the latter 12:41 by making s much more powerful 12:41 (and removing autosearching from excal to compensate, it doesn't need a buff) 12:42 hm 12:42 MKoT should grant searching 12:42 anyway yeah 12:45 maybe 's' should always succeed and repeating it should increase the search radius 12:45 ais523: maybe I should add untrapping as a balance issue then 12:45 or something like that 12:45 aosdict: I'd be fine with that 12:48 ais523: in fiqhack, s is guranteed (assuming you have no negative searching "bonuses") to find doors and corridors next to you in 1 turn 12:49 it can also find things further away from you with a lower chance 12:49 and traps can be found with a lower chance than doors/corridors 12:49 and rings of searching are +N rings 12:49 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 12:49 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 12:50 FIQ: I think those changes are along the right lines; I also think that balance might need addressing but I'm not sure how 12:50 and at +3 or +4 enchantment, they'll essentially find all traps before you step on them 12:50 there is a table on how searching works in fiqhack on the wiki 12:50 right now what you're doing with searching is basically to make it near-irrelevant as a mechanic 12:50 which is reasonable given that it doesn't function that well at the moment, but it'd be better to somehow find a way that it could work 12:51 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Search#FIQhack 12:51 perhaps s should always search everything in LOS but be much more expensive in time, for example 12:51 ais523: it isn't irrelevant at all 12:51 that'd also give a good reason to differentiate s and . 12:51 it can still hide sneaky doors and such 12:51 but it's much more helpful when just looking for the > 12:51 (in AceHack, there's no default keybinding for "wait" because "search" is just better in all cases) 12:51 and you can still use s if you want to be careful with traps etc 12:51 (and usefully so, unlike vanilla) 12:51 FIQ: I mean, a few s taps every now and then hardly cost anything 12:51 and in FIQhack, would have a large effect 12:52 I find this a good thing IMO 12:52 in vanilla, s is nearly useless 12:52 for actually finding secrets 12:52 and if you need it to find the >, very tedious/annoying 12:52 it seems a little overbuffed in fiqhack 12:52 yes 12:52 I disagree, but meh 12:53 let's put it this way: searching in vanilla is tedious because you often need to do it and it takes a lot of time when you do 12:53 searching in fiqhack is tedious for different reasons: it gives a noticeable advantage with no real cost to spam it whenever you're doing anything, thus you have to do it all the time in case you find something 12:54 hm 12:54 I suppose it is similar to protection in vanilla in that regard? 12:54 THe spell 12:54 yes 12:54 I can see the point of that 12:54 actually I'm reminded of ranged combat (especially in DCSS but probably also NetHack) 12:54 However, that's not how I play personally 12:55 where the consensus is that it's more powerful than the alternatives but nonetheless, people rarely use it because it's fiddly 12:55 So I didn't think much of it 12:55 hmm, I think for my combat system overhaul I should take the greater of spell protection and divine protection, instead of the sum 12:55 FIQ: it's not how I play either, but there are people who are easily snared into fun-destructive behaviours like that 12:55 Except when needing to use it to find > 12:55 where IMO it works well 12:55 ais523: Pudding farming 12:55 FIQ: exactly 12:55 (apparently there's a subset of people who actually enjoy pudding farming, so ???) 12:55 rule of thumb: if you were writing the wiki strategy guide, would you add hints to point to this unfun but better strategy? 12:55 I didn't remove it from fiqhack because if people like it 12:56 let them do it 12:56 (one of them was an NH4 playtester for ages, though, which helped me find a lot of performance-related bugs) 12:56 the conduct is good enough 12:56 Minoru= 12:56 ? 12:56 FIQ: puddingsplitless? or explicitsearchless? 12:56 ais523: I was referring to puddingsplitless 12:57 puddingsplitless has actually become an amazing troll conduct because it's so easy to break by accident 12:57 NH4 took great pains into removin floating eye typos at expense of gameplay 12:57 Then went ahead and made a new floating eye typo of its own 12:57 not expense, the gameplay is basically no different to vanilla; it just turns out that the vanilla floating eye gameplay actually sucks 12:57 it makes a point really well 12:57 however, it leads to unfun play in the process 12:59 I just made floating eyes cyan instead of dark blue. 12:59 Visibility -> less YAAD 12:59 aosdict: You should port FIQhack floatin geyes :P 12:59 *floating eyes 12:59 floatin' guys 13:00 ^ new hallucinatory monster 13:00 heh 13:00 FIQ: what if NH4-style floating eyes couldn't enter corridors? 13:00 (this is an idea I had a while back, combining several ideas) 13:00 what if it spawns in one 13:00 teleports into one 13:01 blocks a doorway 13:01 couldn't spawn there 13:01 teleporting there is less of a problem 13:01 monsters can spawn anywhere 13:01 blocking a doorway is also solvable by closing and kicking down the door 13:01 you can change the rule that monsters can spawn anywhere 13:01 (besides, it's not true; they don't spawn in water) 13:01 doorway is the edge between a room and a corridor 13:02 so that solution makes no sense 13:02 well, confine them in rooms, rather than away from corridors, then 13:04 I suppose that would solve the unfun issue 13:04 but it just hides the problem I feel 13:04 Unless you retain the NH3 floating eye mechanic, considering that you have now removed the typo issue 13:04 porting fiqhack floating eyes means also porting slowness as a player attribute 13:05 aosdict: Aside from a savebreak, that would be trivial 13:06 The hard part would be porting the AoE effec 13:06 t 13:06 area of effect effect? 13:06 sorry 13:07 but yeah 13:07 wait, what part of slowness is aoe 13:08 I was saying the hard part wouldn't be porting slow 13:08 but their area attack 13:08 Being in the view of a floating eye slows as well 13:08 but temporarily, getting it out of view regains your speed shortly after 13:09 I think I'd like to fix up the intrinsic system first 13:09 which is something I think fiqhack has already done 13:09 yep 13:09 right now, if someone wanted to make a NetHack variant 13:09 I would suggest starting from FIQhack 13:10 problem with that is the number of steps it is away from vanilla 13:10 aosdict: well the problem with starting with vanilla is the number of steps it is away from FIQhack :-P 13:10 nethack -> NAO -> nitrohack+acehack -> nethack4 -> fiqhack 13:11 I don't agree with all the changes in it, but the internals changes are the hardest part to replicate, and gameplay changes are often easy to reverse if you don't like them 13:11 also, neither nitrohack nor acehack is an NAO derivative 13:11 NH4 is to some extent 13:11 oh I thought it was 13:11 only 3 steps away then 13:12 well, my philosophy is to see what vanilla would be like with a certain set of patches, see how people like it compared to vanilla, and then apply a new set of patches and start over 13:12 rather than letting changes build upon themselves 13:12 aosdict: that's a good reason to start from vanilla 13:12 ais523: however, fiqhack completely removes monster spellcasting and any traces of it 13:12 so if you actually like it 13:12 you'd have to reimplement it 13:13 that is probably the hardest gameplay change to reverse 13:13 I forgot about that 13:13 for example, looking at dnethack's changes to, say, slings is less effective because there are so many other features that affect the strategy around slings 13:13 to be fair, the nethack monster spellcasting code isn't very good 13:13 but still 13:14 Porting stuff from fiqhack into vanilla patches, sure. 13:14 But not forking from it. 13:14 ais523: however, I do intend to add special abilities at some point to improve role distinction 13:14 and also demon distinction (by giving them different abilities) 13:15 I think this would be the best place to reimplement monster spellcasting 13:15 if you wanted to 13:15 aosdict: it's very hard to port between NH4 derivatives and vanilla nowadays 13:15 they do so much differently in the internals 13:15 4k and fiqhack have, in my opinion, some of the best feature sets of any variants, but they're so far away 13:15 you can do it, but you can't just copy patches, you have to rewrite them by hand 13:15 of course 13:15 (unless you get lucky and it patches part of the code that's hardly been touched) 13:16 aosdict: Chris ported FIQhack's spell maintenance 13:16 He did so by looking at the diffs (which I gave him) 13:16 And reimplementing it by hand 13:16 You can't really apply the diffs automatically 13:16 FIQ: what's the interface for spell maint like at the moment? 13:16 Yes, basically that. 13:16 ais523: if you are casting a maintainable spell 13:16 you get prompted, "Maintain the spell?" 13:17 This is IMO not an issue because there is generally never a reason *not* to 13:17 I am fully aware that the diffs can't simply be transferred over. 13:17 hmm, that feels non-ideal, but OTOH I don't know how many people cast those spells non-maintained 13:17 Right, that was my point 13:18 ais523: lately I've been looking into UI improvements more, compared to the original goal of fiqhack, because there is some people who play fiqhack for the sole reason of its major ui improvements 13:19 some of which originate in NH4, some of which is original 13:19 FIQ: in an ideal world, you'd persuade me to make them then pull from me ;-) 13:19 Heh 13:19 I'm hoping to spend more time on NetHack 13:19 but then, that's not exactly difficult 13:19 spending less time would be something more of a feat 13:19 lol 13:19 well I've noticed that you've started to lurk a bit more 13:19 compared to last yeaer 13:19 *year 13:20 ais523: interestingly, I have jonadab, indirectly, to thank for people noticing fiqhack :P 13:20 because there was this guy who noticed his april fools post 13:20 which made him interested into 4k and nethack4 in general 13:21 if only brogue4 were real :-P 13:21 and he proceed to tell other people he hanged around with about it 13:21 so yeah 13:21 more people play your games when you go on recruitment drives 13:21 but I haven't been doing that recently because I wouldn't be able to keep up with the volume 13:22 heh 13:29 -!- nymphet has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59 -!- ais523 has quit [] 14:16 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law), 9969 points, T:7991, killed by a black unicorn 14:17 -!- tomthetom00 has joined #hardfought 14:26 -!- lorimer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26 -!- remirol has joined #hardfought 14:31 fiq: Error: dmonsfree: 1 removed doesn't match 2 pending Location: libnethack/src/mon.c:1852 Game ID: hothraxxa_1504013235 14:50 hm 14:50 I wonder what caused that 14:50 fiq: happened again. i was doing something entirely different 14:50 it means that a monster died twice 14:50 which shouldn't happen 14:50 this is the orc temple mine's end 14:51 btw have you changed the way invisibility/see invisible works? 14:56 and again 15:09 hm. an iron golem can walk on a rust tyrap with no effect. seems wrong 15:10 [nd] pugilist (Mon Hum Mal Cha) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:4961 15:17 elenmirie: you're not pugilist, are you? 15:18 I may have asked that before 15:18 but on a small server like this it seems weird that two different people are trying multi-conduct monks 15:19 -!- oh6 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19 wouldn't it be weirder still that the same person is trying the same character type in different accounts? 15:19 (for the record I'm practically sure that elenmirie isn't pugilist) 15:19 well, pugilist is an appropriate name for a weaponless player 15:19 yes 15:20 and some people on NAO do make separate accounts for conduct play 15:20 I have separate accounts on NAO for different roles 15:20 (I also have a samuria account on hardfought) 15:20 samurai, even 15:22 but elenmirie plays monks under her own name, I find her bones occasionally 15:22 with nice +2 gloves 15:42 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Hum Fem Law), 1965 points, T:1481, killed by a hill orc 15:43 !tell ais523 I like the idea of search always succeeding if it doesn't get interrupted, but taking multiple turns to do so. So A) you'd know when you've searched enough, and B) you don't have to use numeric prefixes. Better UI. 15:43 Will do, jonadab! 15:43 how will you know when to stop? 15:44 what if you search where there's nothing to find? 15:44 my point exactly 15:44 ;) 15:47 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Hum Fem Neu), 694 points, T:770, killed by a cave spider, while reading a book 15:50 Do what a DM would do and say "There is nothing of interest for you to find"? 15:52 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Hum Fem Law), 1066 points, T:1436, killed by a werejackal 15:53 aosdict: sure. how many turns would that consume? 15:54 hmm. probably dependent on stats like searching is now 15:55 would allow you to still do 2s/n2s if you're reasonably sure you will find 95% of stuff within 2 turns 15:55 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Hum Fem Neu), 485 points, T:962, killed by a rabid rat, while frozen by a monster's gaze 15:56 !who 15:56 Tarmunora_: hothraxxa [fh] munterplant [nd] Raisse [nd] groovejumper [dyn] 15:56 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:57 this oracle gives good fountain. uncursed my -1 ring of protection on the first dip 15:58 EPI: when dipping a cursed worn/wielded item in a fountain hoping for an uncurse, and you get the curse item effect instead, your hand becomes cursed 16:00 [dyn] groovejumper (Arc Gno Fem Neu), 1461 points, T:1466, killed by a housecat 16:09 so much backscroll... 16:09 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 16:10 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:10 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 16:27 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27 -!- tomthetom00 has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:29 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 16:29 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 16:56 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:59 -!- aosdict is now known as aos 17:01 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 17:02 [slex] dolores (Cam Ang Fem Cha), 181 points, T:323, killed by a monster (river moccasin) 17:05 [4k] Zool (Syberag) (Arc Hum Mal Neu), 4188 points, T:1160, killed by a dwarf 17:13 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:2847 17:27 If you search and there's nothing to find, and you don't get interrupted, you'd get a "You don't find anything." message 17:27 at which point you would know there is no benefit to be obtained by further searching at that location. 17:27 A good dungeon master never says "there is nothing" 17:27 Crawldragon: Message from raisse at 2017-08-31 13:18 EDT: liquid peanut butter is this: http://www.saveur.com/article/Recipes/Saus-Kacang-Tanah-Javanese-Peanut-Sauce 17:27 How many turns this takes would depend on Stuff. 17:28 Discounting the possibility of there being a trap takes all the suspense out of a game 17:28 Crawldragon: That's why I worded it "YOu don't find anything." 17:28 jonadab: I think hothraxxa was saying, what if you know it's going to take forever to ensure there's nothing there, maybe you're a caveman, and you don't want to spend all that time repeatedly 17:28 Ah. 17:29 Well, if your search stats are so awful that it would take 30 turns or something, and you don't want to spend the time, then sure, don't search. 17:30 Or get lenses, and a ring of searching, etc. 17:32 The more I think about it, the more I want to remove enchantment's effects on to-hit entirely, cases like launchers excepted. 17:32 Make enchantment be about damage? 17:32 Yes, and skill is the main thing driving whether you can hit with stuff. 17:33 Which means you don't need to scale the to-hit system around it working with +7 bonuses on everything in the late game. 17:33 Skill, versus the opponent's evasiveness, I assume. 17:34 It's your bonuses stacked up against the other guy's bonuses. Skill and evasiveness are only two of those. 17:34 Also makes natural weapon to-hit bonuses/penalties relevant, which is nice. 17:35 Yeah. Sounds reasonable. 17:35 It just goes against what I feel is very natural and traditional in systems of weapon enchantment. 17:36 -!- Manaflare has joined #hardfought 17:42 also simplifies the whole launcher thing. Launcher enchantment can affect to-hit and projectile enchantment can affect damage. You can max the enchantment on both, but it's twice as costly. 17:46 yeah, going to make that change 17:46 better than non-elven weapons can only go to +5 18:05 !who 18:05 K2: dolores [slex] morgoth [slex] 18:06 !setmintc 200 18:06 K2: Min reported turncount for k2 set to 200 18:13 [slex] morgoth (Brd Agb Fem Neu), 78 points, T:72, killed by a monster (quickling) 18:23 [gh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 1501 points, T:2051, killed by a pit viper 18:26 start new game. weapon right next to my spawn point 18:26 You see here a long sword named Frost Brand. 18:26 <---- monk 18:36 Which artifact weapon would you have _preferred_ as a Monk? 18:37 When I was trying to play FIQHack Monks, I kept getting both Frost Brand and Cleaver in the same game. Happened in something like three out of five games. 18:38 wouldnt have preffered any ;) 18:38 its just typical of the rng 18:38 reward you with something you dont need or want to use ;) 18:52 Ah. 19:14 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 19:48 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 19:48 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 19:51 * Grasshopper Sabaaydii from Laos 20:15 !who 20:15 Grasshopper: hothraxxa [fh] Grasshopper [nd] 20:24 o/ 20:25 \o 20:31 y - an uncursed +0 leather hat of carrying (being worn) 20:31 fiq: what does this do? 20:32 you can put your stuff on it and carry it like the women of the african sahara do. one big tall pile of stuff balanced on your head 20:32 cool! 20:32 :D 20:33 apparently it adds 100 to my carrying capacity 20:39 hothraxxa, are the quest level it looks like 20:39 yesh 20:39 arc quest 20:40 which i can do at xl12 in fh 20:40 !lotmikee hothraxxa 20:40 actually i think xl10 gets you in 20:40 mikee's luck is probably better than grasshopper's, considering his near 50% win rate in dungeon crawl 20:45 DO people not do 20+ game streaks in DCSS? 20:48 DCSS ain't NH 20:49 speaking of soup, I'm hungry 20:49 time for breakfast 20:49 have fun with your soup 20:49 make sure a cockatrice isn't inside of it 20:49 or else you'll be playing with some stone soup 20:49 cockatrice egg noodle soup 20:51 sounds like something you might expect in Laos 20:51 but I'm going for strictly "American breakfast" this morning 20:53 bacon eggs and hashbrowns 20:54 and a stack of pancakes with authentic vermont maple syrup 20:54 all of it blessed by the LotG 20:55 ooh Grasshopper, dunno if you got the memo 20:55 grunthack now has dungeon overview/annotate 21:08 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:17 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 21:17 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 21:17 K2: that sounds very exciting 21:18 I'll have to try revisiting my Grunt streak 21:19 the beholder was buffed up too 21:20 https://github.com/NHTangles/GruntHack/commit/103aaec2176264417c0cadfba5c29b2b44d1decd 21:25 K2: In my family we always make peach syrup. From homecanned peaches. 21:25 Peaches taste better than trees. 21:25 heh 21:25 You know that I'll still genocide them at the earliest opportunity anyway 21:25 as you should 21:26 beholders that is, not housecats 21:26 both 21:26 just to be safe 21:26 you never know when your pussy might become possessed by the devil 21:28 lol 21:28 miAW 21:30 So what _is_ the recommended geno list in GruntHack, with the spit crash bug fixed? Beholders, all L, flayers? Anything else? 21:30 J 21:30 peaches taste better than trees? them's fighting words 21:30 vorpal jabberwocks 21:30 Oh, vorpal J, right. 21:30 and if you find an early game scroll, wipe out zombies 21:31 but not if you want to kill shopkeepers or priests 21:31 as Z can be useful for that in Grunt 21:32 in grunthack i generally go in this order - e L h ; J Z 21:32 For Z I'd like to say that their groan is worse than their bite but alas... it isn't true 21:41 [gh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 8641 points, T:3678, killed by a dwarf, while fainted 21:41 wtf 21:42 geno dwarves! 21:43 sleeping on the job? 21:43 wasnt paying attention to my hunger status 21:43 i like to stay weak as long as i can as a monk to exercise wisdom 21:44 after riding my bike into Vientiane (Laos) from Thailand, this morning I thoought I'd be complaining about how sore my arse is (pack was too heavy) 21:45 but in fact it is my legs (rubber) and arms (some rough terrain) that are sore 21:45 So I'm taking a double-helping at breakfast 21:45 nice ;) 21:45 they are slow at keeping the eggs and bacon flowing fast enough 21:45 welp, have to add Laos to the list of my hilite ignores now 21:46 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 21:48 hahah 21:48 aos: what are you ignoring? 21:49 it hilites on aos, so Laos also triggers i 21:49 it* 21:49 or: 21:49 -!- aos is now known as aosdict 21:49 oh, of course! 21:49 * Grasshopper bangs sense into brain 21:50 -!- Tarmunora_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:50 -!- Tarmunora_ has joined #hardfought 21:54 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:08 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 22:13 [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Cav Bat Mal Neu) killed the elder priestess of Moloch, on T:49014 22:25 already added chaos and xaosect to your ignore list? 22:26 oh, xaositect, members of the chaos faction 22:27 sigh 22:28 it should really just be "^aos| aos" 22:29 YASI: to get past the quest locate level, you have to complete a minigame that requires solving story problems about a mumak traveling east and an air elemental going west. 22:30 yeah, lots of chaosmen-related works if we ever talk about planscape 22:32 just did a google search completion for aosa coffee 22:32 so even that isn't safe 22:36 My /usr/share/dict/words only lists Laos, cacaos, chaos, chaos's. 22:36 okay, if anyone actually starts unironically talking about in aosa coffee in channels I hang out in, I guess I have to change it to "(^aos| aos)[^a]" 22:36 But of course that's a spellcheck dictionary, so nowhere near complete. 22:38 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 22:39 Ah, I have a Scrabble dictionary here that lists a few more. 22:40 BACALAOS, CARABAOS, CHAOSES, CIAOS, CURACAOS, EPINAOS, GHERAOS, JIAOS, MANOAOS, NAOS, NAOSES, PRAOS, PRONAOS, QINGHAOSU, QINGHAOSUS, TAMARAOS, TAOS, URAOS. 22:40 You're welcome. 22:41 At least you don't get pinged every time people start talking about Linley's Dungeon Crawl 22:45 [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Cav Bat Mal Neu) wished for "blessed figurine of a Throne Archon", on T:51224 22:46 [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Cav Bat Mal Neu) entered the Planes, on T:51237 22:55 [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Cav Bat Mal Neu) destroyed Pestilence, on T:51585 22:57 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought 22:57 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ 23:00 [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Cav Bat Mal Neu) wished for "a large dragontooth long sword named Frostfang", on T:51618 23:01 [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Cav Bat Mal Neu) wished for "a large dragontooth broadsword named Fireheart", on T:51619 23:01 [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Cav Bat Mal Neu) killed the high priestess of Ishtar, on T:51620 23:02 [dnh] NeroOneTrueKing (Cav Bat Mal Neu), 8373469 points, T:51622, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/N/NeroOneTrueKing/dnethack/dumplog/1502898076.dnh.txt 23:29 [gh] Tangles (Hea Gno Mal Neu), 1575 points, T:2361, killed by a land mine 23:30 Congrats NeroOneTrueKing! 23:38 ooh hey! grats NeroOneTrueKing woooo 23:44 wooot grats NeroOneTrueKing 23:57 Something is engraved here on the headstone. You read: "Anybody who can't figure out how to die in NetHack, isn't really trying -- jonadab".