00:19 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 00:38 [gh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 2066 points, T:1553, killed by a dwarf, while fainted 05:13 -!- mode/Beholder [+Zi] by Beholder 05:13 -!- weber.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ GruntHack 0.2.2 is now live 05:13 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ 05:14 -!- K2 has joined #hardfought 05:14 -!- mode/#hardfought [+o K2] by ChanServ 05:14 yay Beholder! 05:14 now the channel will see me splat or ascend! 05:14 all my Rodney kills went unnoticed :-( 05:16 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:45619 05:16 gah... so dns was down right after i went to bed 05:16 you all were still able to access server? 05:17 yes, only beholder was down 05:17 how odd 05:17 i mean that's good... but odd 05:17 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:45623 05:18 pff, every marker I wish for has fewer charges 05:18 first I got 94, then 60 or so, now 45 05:19 ok off to work. lotg raisse! 05:19 thanks! 05:19 probably won't ascend right away, there's life outside nethack :-/ 05:20 there is? 05:21 hey, why do I hear noises in the distance, I'm at the quest home level without any of my pets and I'm not wearing a ring of conflict 05:27 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:46009 05:31 saving on level 1 05:36 -!- Crawldragon has quit [Quit: If beer is liquid bread, what is liquid peanut butter?] 05:43 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a werejackal, on T:4123 05:46 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 3206 points, T:4190, killed by a small mimic 06:41 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 06:41 gooooood mooooooorning 06:56 morning K2-webirc! 06:59 ;) 06:59 hi K2-webirc! 07:00 hi! 07:00 Hello K2-webirc, Welcome to #hardfought 07:00 hi beholder too! 07:00 its romper room in here 07:00 so mini-me had a great first day of kindergarten 07:00 ooh, first day! 07:01 yes! elenmirie if you look on my facebook feed you can see pics my wife took 07:01 when I went to pick her up she didn't want to leave 07:02 lol... she looks like she's really enjoying it 07:02 good for her 07:02 been excited all week to start 07:03 us too as we don't have to pay for daycare anymore heh 07:03 result! 07:03 that's like an instant payrise 07:03 YES 07:04 there's an after school program she goes to for a couple hours after school (I cant pick her up immediately after school lets out) and we have to pay for it but it's not anywhere close to the cost of daycare over the same time span 07:04 cool 07:05 this is her after school location - http://thebarnschoolvt.com - its an old barn that was built in 1790 that's been renovated and expanded, sits on several acres of meadow and woodlands 07:05 less than 0.5 miles from her elementary school 07:05 and its awesome, wish I had had a place like this when I was growing up 07:05 sounds like childhood heaven 07:05 it IS 07:06 just reaffirmed we made the right decision in choosing where to live to start a family 07:06 can't she go to school there, too? 07:07 she could yes! 07:07 but it's a private school, we'd have to pay tuition 07:08 our towns elementary school is rated one of the best in the state, there's really no need to switch and incur the extra cost 07:08 Your 2 potions of extra healing glow with a light blue aura. You notice a black glow surrounding you. 07:08 gah damn you rodney 07:08 he's a jerk 07:08 but I'm wielding magicbane, he didn't actually curse anything 07:09 \o/ 07:10 my potion of gain level is already cursed 07:10 🙌 07:11 h - a blessed scroll of genocide named SEA MONSTERS 07:11 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) entered the Planes, on T:46430 07:11 You rise up, through the ceiling! The green dragon is still eating. 07:11 should have checked 07:11 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:46431 07:13 What you produce is quite far from music... 07:14 (also strange that I can hear it, because I'm currently Deaf) 07:15 The bolt of lightning vanishes into the aether! 07:15 nice messages! 07:17 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 07:17 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 07:19 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) genocided class ;, on T:46582 07:20 eek gremlins on the plane of water 07:20 genocide them! 07:20 yes, good idea 07:20 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) genocided class g, on T:46600 07:22 argh why is this damn plane so tedious 07:23 I'll die of boredom before something has a chance to kill me 07:23 ooh the portal! 07:27 why did my death rays miss famine FOUR TIMES? 07:27 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed Famine, on T:46705 07:29 Helge the invisible Mage swings one of his athames. 07:29 how many has he got? 07:30 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha) killed Death, on T:46757 07:30 You kill Death! "Burrrrp!" 07:32 [nd] Raisse (Wiz Orc Fem Cha), 1932924 points, T:46774, ascended https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/R/Raisse/nhdev/dumplog/1503987592.nhdev.txt 07:33 !rng @role 07:33 or something like that 07:33 !role 07:33 raisse: nethack4 tourist 07:33 tourist is a good idea but I'll play a nd one 07:34 or finish the 3.4.3 arc that I keep opening by mistake 07:34 er, haven't I already ascended a tourist? 07:34 2 or 3 wizards now 07:35 !asc 07:35 er, that doesn't work 07:35 !commands 07:35 raisse: available commands are !help !ping !time !pom !hello !booze !beer !potion !tea !coffee !whiskey !vodka !rum !tequila !scotch !goat !lotg !d(1-1000) !(1-50)d(1-1000) !8ball !rng !role !race !variant !tell !source !lastgame !lastasc !streak !rcedit !scores !sb !setmintc !whereis !players !who !commands 07:36 !sb 07:36 raisse: https://www.hardfought.org/nethack/scoreboard (HDF) or https://scoreboard.xd.cm (ALL) 07:37 2 orc wizards, a priest and a tourist 07:37 !role nd 07:37 raisse: ranger 07:37 hm, I'm no good at that 07:40 Hello Raisse, welcome to NetHack! You are a lawful dwarven Cavewoman. 07:46 usually when I see a blue ( I'm glad it's a stethoscope but this time I really want a ke 07:46 key* 07:46 to get into the closed shop 07:48 Adjama says "You be careful with my mace!" 07:48 now it's my mace! 07:50 argh, died of one-more-hit syndrome 08:04 congrats raisse! 08:04 thanks! 08:04 (I assume that's for the ascension, not for the stupid death by werejackal) 08:04 can't it be for both 08:04 oh yes it can, but it's only appropriate for one 08:05 FIQ: interesting response. that was from PatR? 08:10 I agree that enchantment working on defense and offense should be avoided 08:11 (to clarify my brass knuckles yani, those should be treated like a weapon with enchantment not helping defense) 08:12 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 08:20 argh poison instadeath 08:20 makes me remember why I play orcs 08:28 your interaction with Adjama reminds me that I never decided what to do about that orctown shop being closed for inventory 08:29 a closed-for-inventory shop in *orctown*! 08:29 perhaps all the shopkeepers are hiding in it 08:29 and will be hostile until you #chat to one 08:29 yes, I added a barricaded general store to mitigate the swarm of "orctown is useless" complaints 08:30 and of course, the door is locked 08:30 yes, of course, or the orcses will get in 08:30 but when you tell a level to generate a shop and specify the door to be locked, it always engraves "Closed for inventory" outside 08:30 oh! the shk might be harder to convince you're harmless if you *are* an orc 08:30 which is ridiculous flavor-wise but is pretty funny 08:32 I think making the shk hostile by default is too cruel, it would probably be the death of most characters who tried to talk to him 08:32 just have him wield a weapon but calm down the moment you #chat 08:32 ah! maybe I should add a second barricaded shop, which is empty, and which has a hostile shopkeeper in it, and you don't know which is which 08:33 which which which which 08:33 which witch? 08:33 (I used to have a book with that title) 08:33 I thought it hilariously funny when I was 10 or so 08:34 must have been 12, even, because I didn't teach myself to read English until I'd left elementary school 08:34 I could speak English much earlier but not read it 08:37 raisse congrats!! 08:38 just saw 08:38 work got busy for a bit 08:38 thanks! 08:38 everybody (except me) was away so I could yell at the monsters all I wanted 08:38 that helps a lot :-) 08:39 lol 08:39 I've caught myself shaking my firsts at the screen before 08:39 fists 08:39 and there's a reason I now have an all aluminum keyboard... 08:39 :D 08:44 ooh, a silver spear 09:04 in case anyone was wondering - grunthack 0.2.2 includes dungeon overview patch (many thanks to tangles for making that possible). it also includes some changes to beholders, you're not going to encounter them quite so early anymore 09:06 Are they on the Summon Nasties list? 09:06 lol, a nymph just made off with my spare key 09:07 YASI: a type of monster that stands helpless if you can see it with normal vision, attacks viciously otherwise. 09:12 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 09:13 jonadab: not that I know of (the summon nasties bit) 09:14 where is the summon nasties list kept within the code? 09:14 hi K2-webirc! did the slex commit work? I have the suspicion that it might not, due to the way github constructed the diff :/ 09:14 LarienTelrunya: Message from K2 at 2017-08-30 21:23 EDT: your hotfix for slex causes compile to error out. and it looks like you basically replaced src/timeout.c completely. find me later i'll tell you the details on the compile errors 09:14 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 09:14 ah, too late... well, I suspected that might happen 09:14 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 09:15 no it did not 09:15 jonadab: ravenous bugblatter beast of traal 09:15 no, that's the other way round, if you can't see it, it can't see you 09:15 right lol I was thinking of that 09:15 that would be a cool monster to have in nethack 09:16 K2-webirc: hmm, I guess instead of trying to rewrite it hoping to make it work, it might be a better idea if I simply finish 2.0.5 until Monday, push that, and we update the server then if that's okay for you :) 09:16 K2-webirc: I think it's an array, called nasties[] or something like that? Might be in wizard.c, not certain? 09:16 LarienTelrunya: yeah that sounds good. just let me know when 2.0.5 is ready for public consumption, i'll update then 09:16 ok :) 09:16 jonadab: ok, i'll look 09:17 if the beholder is NOT in the nasties list, should it be included? ;) 09:17 also I see the grunthack precedent was set? 09:17 precedent? 09:17 well, it was the first time that a gameplay-altering change was implemented 09:17 ah yes 09:18 the beholder was tweaked 09:19 the reason why I specifically mention that is that it's theoretically possible (though not planned in any way) for me to vanish one day, and then slex would be at the mercy of others, and I'd most certainly not want gameplay changes in any form to be made, unless the person who does it rebrands the thing with another name 09:19 Eh, in some ways the spit crash bug also alters gameplay, since players no longer feel obliged to genocide everything that can spit :-) 09:20 hah 09:20 well yes but that's a bug fix altering game play (in a positive light) 09:20 so if I e.g. mysteriously die, and then witness that someone takes up slex, alters gameplay-relevant code, but then still calls the result "slex", I'd be turning over in my grave and get the desire to haunt that person for all eternity :D 09:20 have you seen the commit I did for beholder in grunt? I added notes 09:20 I'm wondering if sgrunt knows that you and Tangles are developing grunthack? 09:21 in a sense it's a quasi bug fix also 09:21 ah, didn't look at the notes yet, will do 09:21 LarienTelrunya: we messaged him initially when we started updating the code. zero repsonse 09:22 :( 09:22 read the commit and let me know what you think. I would like feedback 09:23 well, from a gameplay perspective it does make sense in a way, although I'm not convinced every "dangerous" monster has to have a high warning number - after all, floating eyes are ultra-deadly if you bump into them, yet they don't show up to warning at all 09:25 floating eyes are dangerous only if you bump into them without reflection or blind. if a beholder is awake for any reason, you're screwed if you're not already prepared 09:25 my actual opinion, though, is that since sgrunt is no longer around and there seems to be no way to ask him about it: if I were taking over GruntHack, I'd either rebrand it (i.e. name it GrantHack or something) or refrain from making gameplay changes at all, so as to not upset sgrunt if he in fact intended them to be level 6. But that's just my opinion. 09:26 The segfault venoms are kind of a corner case in that regard; I'm fairly sure he didn't intend them to be crashy, but again there's no way to really find out :( 09:26 I can understand that point of view. but until last night, all the changes to grunthack were either bug fixes or adding functionality 09:26 LarienTelrunya: If you fall under a bus, we will turn slex maintenance over to someone whose basic approach is to rank all the features by quality and remove the worst half, for each development cycle. Rinse, repeat. 09:26 and even the beholder change isn't major 09:26 its still grunthack through and through 09:27 jonadab: Well that's exactly what I'm afraid of. That Soviet5lo or another "removeremoveremove"-minded developer takes over without calling the game something other than slex. 09:28 Maybe I should write my will, and state in it that any gameplay change (including e.g. buffing up the monster level of slex's beholders!) should not be done unless one is willing to make it into its own game, and call it "slash'em extant" or something sufficiently different from its current name, so it's clear that I did not make that version. 09:30 but your game is open source 09:31 yeha, I know that everyone can do what they want, but if I state my will then there's at least the chance that whoever takes up slex will be polite enough to rename it 09:31 but there's no legal obligation to do so, will or not 09:32 we kept grunthack as 'grunthack' as a sign of respect 09:32 yes, I know, I'd just do it to increase the odds 09:32 (or at least that's how I see it) 09:33 just as the bug fixes and functionality we've added to sporkhack... but it's still sporkhack 09:34 and thankfully I got lorimer blessing 09:34 well but there's a difference between bug fixes and gameplay changes 09:34 ah, yeah thankfully lorimer is still around :) 09:34 * LarienTelrunya hopes that she will still be around for many years to come 09:34 tweaking the beholder, imo, is a minor gameplay change 09:35 did you get any other opinions on the change? I know that mine is probably heavily biased and uncommon... 09:35 something major would be something like adding a side quest, or introducing new monsters, or changing spell effects or damage calculation, etc 09:35 yes I ran it by a couple people before implementing the change. 09:36 what did they say? 09:36 there were no objections 09:36 I made a small tweak to my original change based on feedback 09:37 and I may tweak it again after I've done a thorough play through 09:38 well, I (personally) wouldn't have done it, at least if I was taking up the "official" GruntHack repo (as opposed to using it as a base to my own fork, in which case I'd rename it right away), but it's just my two cents, so don't let my opinion stop you in any way :) (I hope I'm not sounding offensive; in any case I'm not meaning to) 09:40 don't worry, I'm not. and you're not ;) 09:45 K2-webirc: technically, an open-source license only deals with copyright issues, it doesn't really solve the trademark problem. Remember Iceweasel? 09:46 no I don't remember iceweasel 09:46 what happened? 09:46 and I doubt any variant author for nethack has trademarked their variant name, at least I'm not aware of anyone doing so 09:47 there ya go LarienTelrunya, trademark Slash'EM Extended and 'slex' 09:47 heh, the license would allow us to trademark our nethack variants? really? 09:48 Short version: Debian policy requires that if there are security problems, Debian releases a fix. The browser's auto-updater was changed or removed therefore. The Mozilla people said woah, hold on, you can't call it Firefox if people are getting something different from you than they get from us. 09:48 LarienTelrunya: You can' 09:48 Can't trademark the source code. 09:48 But you can trademark the _name_ of your variant, potentially. 09:49 Though, in the case of Slash'EM Extended, you might have an originality problem, since A) Slash'EM wasn't originally yours and B) the word "Extended" doesn't add anything that wasn't already there ("Extended Magic" is the EM). 09:49 K2: mind if I add your buffed GruntHack beholder as a separate slex monster (but keeping the original grunthack beholder :D)? 09:50 K2-webirc: So several successive versions of Debian shipped "Iceweasel", which was essentially identical to Firefox but didn't use the brand name or logo. 09:50 LarienTelrunya: you can do whatever you want ;) 09:51 ok, I hope I can include it until Monday because then players on the server can encounter it! 09:51 jonadab: ah ok 09:51 jonadab: ah, I see; I'm aware that "SLASH'EM Extended" was probably not the best name I could have chosen, but meh, now I don't feel like renaming it :D 09:52 LarienTelrunya: FWIW, "slex" is probably more trademarkable than "SLASH'EM Extended" 10:01 [slex] dolores (Abu Ang Fem Cha), 4462 points, T:1681, poisoned by a rotted undead naga hatchling corpse 10:03 jonadab: the beholder is NOT in the nasties list in grunthack 10:04 [slex] dolores (Cam Ang Fem Cha), 27 points, T:121, killed by time 10:05 -!- loli1 has joined #hardfought 10:05 !lastgame 10:05 loli1: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/d/dolores/slex/dumplog/1504188095.slex.txt 10:07 heya loli 10:07 hello K2-webirc 10:07 how are you 10:07 -!- loli1 is now known as nymphet 10:08 good, you? 10:08 I'm alright 10:10 school already started for you yeah? 10:14 yeah 10:14 I'm in class right now actually 10:15 I find cs classes I can just passively listen 10:15 and things are fine 10:17 you have counterstrike classes? :D 10:17 listen passively how they shoot each other? 10:19 nah 10:19 well i wish 10:20 !role 10:20 LarienTelrunya: dynahack barbarian 10:20 can thta command output any random variant? 10:20 *that 10:20 what the hell why am I mistyping so much 10:24 !role slex 10:24 aosdict: No variant slex on server. 10:25 heh, adding those 100+ roles to the bot's randomization routine would probably be a nightmare anyway 10:28 K2-webirc: So the question you have to ask yourself is, "Do we want things like titans to summon beholders?" 10:29 I could generate a !role slex 10:29 it wouldn't be too bad, just have to load all the classes into a vector 10:30 :) that would be nice! 10:30 in python? pretty sure beholder is python 10:30 * aosdict zaps a wand of polymorph at Beholder. Beholder turns into a python! 10:34 I can just put it into vomitchan 10:35 vomit == haskell 10:39 LarienTelrunya: its actually on the list to do (one of the reasons I asked for the list of roles and races) 10:39 ah, I remember 10:39 jonadab: probably not ;) 10:39 is there also a !race command? 10:39 !race 10:39 LarienTelrunya: fiqhack human 10:39 oh :) 10:39 !roleandrace 10:39 !help 10:39 LarienTelrunya: https://www.hardfought.org/nethack 10:39 this weekend I can implement it 10:39 !commands 10:39 K2-webirc: available commands are !help !ping !time !pom !hello !booze !beer !potion !tea !coffee !whiskey !vodka !rum !tequila !scotch !goat !lotg !d(1-1000) !(1-50)d(1-1000) !8ball !rng !role !race !variant !tell !source !lastgame !lastasc !streak !rcedit !scores !sb !setmintc !whereis !players !who !commands 10:39 LarienTelrunya: 10:40 nymphet: yay! 10:41 it should be really fast to do 10:41 since I can just format the starting screen 10:41 very simple 10:48 nymphet: you could submit a commit to beholder's repo 10:49 https://github.com/NHTangles/beholder 10:49 I wouldn't want to write python, sorry! 10:49 heh 10:49 that's no fun 10:54 aosdict: yes 10:56 K2-webirc: I'm really picky with my languages 10:56 well I tend to be at least 10:56 I find python easier to follow than others 10:56 python takes away my tools 10:56 on purpose 10:57 though I find most languages to be garbage 10:58 out of interest, what kind of cs class are you in right now 10:58 AI 11:02 11:20 -!- nymphet has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:25 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 11:26 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 11:34 okay I'm home 11:54 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 11:54 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 12:07 loli 12:07 what up] 12:07 this game/channel is going to be the death of your GPA 12:07 nah 12:07 it's a CS class 12:07 ;) 12:07 CS = ez pz 12:07 it's not math 12:08 alrighty 12:08 ML is pretty much math 12:09 as for now it's the start of the semester 12:09 so nothing of importance has passed yet 12:09 Or at least, the math is the hard part. The implementation's not usually tricky 12:09 I also get to use any language I want 12:09 which is cool 12:11 I'll see how it goes, aosdict 12:12 I choose... basic 12:13 it'lol 12:13 lol* 12:13 should I just write everything in APL 12:17 delphi! or even borland pascal! (which is what I cut my teeth on in the 1990s) 12:21 haha 12:22 -!- K2-webirc has quit [Quit: *poof*] 12:23 -!- K2-webirc has joined #hardfought 12:45 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:57 -!- K2-webirc has left #hardfought 13:15 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 13:15 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 13:18 !tell crawldragon liquid peanut butter is this: http://www.saveur.com/article/Recipes/Saus-Kacang-Tanah-Javanese-Peanut-Sauce 13:18 Will do, raisse! 13:20 new fruitname 13:21 * aosdict wonders if the game would pluralize a fruitname like "chocolate mumak" correctly 13:23 aosdict: I think it would handle that particular case correctly. 13:23 (Assuming it handles "mumak" correctly.) 13:24 mmm, chocolate mumak 13:24 However, it would probably pluralize "chocolate ya" as "chocolate yas". 13:26 Although, that _might_ just be NH4, not certain. 13:26 chocolate Wizard of Yendor? chocolate Moloch? chocolate Cthulhu? 13:28 aaand now I've semantically satiated the word chocolate. Good job, me. 13:29 What do you want to eat? [e or ?*] This spellbook of magic missile is delicious! You feel semantically satiated. 13:32 "Chocolate Wizards of Yendor" would work out because of the way "of" is handled specially. 13:33 I think you'd get "chocolate Molochs", which sounds wrong to me, but I'm not sure what the correct plural would be. 13:33 And likewise with "chocolate Cthulhus", I think; not sure if that's correct or not. 13:35 If you're looking for ones it'll get wrong, look for nouns that end in -o, it'll probably get a lot of those wrong. 13:36 Oh, I'm not particularly interested in what it'll get wrong or not, I was really just interested in chocolate mumak 13:36 (Because the rule for when you do o => os as opposed to o => oes requires you to know whether the word comes from Italian and/or is music jargon.) 13:36 virus -> viri :D 13:36 LarienTelrunya: I've seen the plural of "genius" in print as "genii", in a novel. 13:36 Though I'm pretty sure "geniuses" is the majority form. 13:36 haha, really? 13:37 "genii" sounds so weird 13:37 LarienTelrunya: In the book _Ordinary Jack_. Which is, incidentally, an excellent book. 13:37 excellent because it uses such plural forms for other things as well, or excellent despite it? 13:37 Excellent for unrelated reasons. 13:38 Ah. 13:38 It has some _really_ vivid character.s 13:38 and uses them well. 13:38 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:38 Daisy Parker, oh my word. 13:41 -!- Crawldragon has joined #hardfought 13:59 -!- Webmant9 has joined #hardfought 14:00 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has joined #hardfought 14:02 -!- Webmant has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:02 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:32 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 14:32 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 14:37 [fh] Freakitsar (jonadab) (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 49400 points, T:12488, zombified 14:49 jonadab: rip 14:50 zombifier: you've been called 14:50 evil zombies 14:50 Who. Put. Zombies. Into. This. Game. 14:51 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law) became literate by engraving "gkjf", on T:7546 14:52 all hail gkjf! 14:53 the great geek jeff! 15:01 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law) changed form for the first time, becoming a werejackal, on T:8839 15:12 YASI: hill orcs can grow up into hell orcs, which are much stronger and normally spawn only in Gehennom. 15:16 YASI: winter wolves can grow up into spring wolves, who can coil up and then suddenly spring at you, crossing a room in one turn to collide with you, doing impact damage (and landing next to you). 15:17 it'd be fun to have a horde of spring wolf pets 15:17 Boinggg! Boinggg! Boing!!! 15:18 Heh. 15:22 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law), 7429 points, T:11979, killed by an owlbear 15:36 YASI: pinball. Fast, Rolls around, bounces into walls, occasionally teleports and changes direction 15:36 Symbol is S_BOULDER? 15:38 yes 15:40 Is that an object, or a monster? 15:40 And what happens if you kick it? 15:44 the obvious answer is "it changes direction" 15:57 [gh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 1190 points, T:1858, zapped himself with a spell 16:26 -!- Jonathanhanes_ has joined #hardfought 16:27 K2: have there been nethacks with an overworld 16:27 some sort of town out of the dungeon or something 16:27 hmm 16:27 in Dudley's Dungeon there is an overworld sometimes ;) 16:28 yeah not sure 16:28 not any nethack variants i know about, but prob with other dungeon crawls and roguelikes 16:28 it would just be cool to have something like that ontop of nethack 16:29 the planes ;) 16:29 that's not what I meant 16:29 the wizard summons that, right? 16:30 no. you escape to it 16:30 -!- Jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30 how the fuck did you get there as a lvl 1 16:30 huh 16:30 when you start a brand new game, those stairs leading up, go to the planes 16:31 of course you dont want to use them unless you have the amulet 16:31 the planes are hostile 16:31 I mean 16:31 how did the character get to the dungeon as a lvl1 16:31 see what I'm saying 16:31 yeah 16:31 loli: K2: several variants have a town branch 16:31 I thought the wizard just got mad 16:31 which opens into a surface town 16:31 it goes upstairs like sokoban 16:31 slex has that I think 16:32 yep :D 16:32 FIQ: right but i never thought they left the dungeon 16:32 ^ 16:32 but the original idea is from unnethack I think 16:32 * K2 shrugs 16:32 I thought that was the idea? 16:32 Hence why they go up 16:32 sokoban goes up 16:32 and the fact that the town level is an open level 16:32 vlads tower 16:32 not enclosed like, say, minetwon 16:32 also that town is really rather barren, the shops are so small and often not worth traversing 5 barren levels of nondescript dungeon for 16:32 similar to several quest levels 16:32 good thing it isn't 5 levels but 3 16:33 first one being a river 16:33 2nd is nymph level 16:33 then the town 16:34 [gh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 14 points, T:27, killed by a water moccasin 16:35 what would be funny is a town over the dungeon and some other rougelike game across the town (joke idea, don't take seriously) 16:35 FIQ: what??? for me the nymph level has always spawned in the regular dungeon, before sokoban, which is just crazy 16:35 (balance would die!) 16:35 in unnethack that is 16:35 LarienTelrunya: does slex have a nymph place? 16:36 if so when 16:36 LarienTelrunya: oh, I play dynahack 16:36 slex has several nymph levels, but they're not guaranteed to exist in any given game 16:36 it works like that there 16:36 if you don't like slex town 16:36 what, dyna has the town branch as well? 16:36 maybe look at dynahack's variant of it 16:36 yes... dynahack is based off unnethack 16:36 + nitrohack 16:36 yeah I know, but I ascended dynahack twice and never saw it 16:37 then you didn't look hard enough 16:37 I've been to the branch pretty much every dyna game that got that far 16:44 [gh] k2 (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 753 points, T:1604, killed by a hobgoblin, while paralyzed 17:06 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law), 2613 points, T:5083, killed by a panther 17:06 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 17:07 ais523! I wanted to ask you about that TAS speedrun where you polymorph into all sorts of things, get negative gold, and all that stuff! is it discontinued? I'd love to read more! 17:08 LarienTelrunya: not discontinued, but not making much progress 17:08 ais523: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-07-18 07:58 EDT: Are diagonal sokoban levels a thing? I've never seen one. Do you have a sample level that requires diagonal movement? 17:08 let me find you a link 17:08 http://nethack4.org/latest/nethack-tas-tools/turnbyturn.txt is the one I got 17:08 it stops at turn 888 17:08 LarienTelrunya: everything relevant to the TAS gets posted in this forum topic: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9771 17:08 I'd really be interested in seeing what those speed-manipulated monsters on dlvl1 are going to do once you enter the planes! 17:09 much is posted elsewhere too, but that's the official place where I link to everything 17:09 LarienTelrunya: one thing worth mentioning is that a while ago, a talk in #NetHack led to 2 new major discoveries 17:09 that led to the existing run basically needing to be redone 17:09 not all of it 17:09 but we'll need to rewind somewhat 17:09 we found a way faster way to do the asc run 17:09 two, in fact 17:09 Yeah 17:09 The branchport skip 17:09 is that why it says "[I'm probably going to redo turns 889 onwards, so that's it for now.]"? 17:09 And the level teleport trap weirdness 17:10 FIQ: oh is that the ridden-monster-has-amulet bug that you pointed out to me so I could fix it in slex? 17:10 yeah 17:10 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:10 LarienTelrunya: see http://nethack4.org/pastebin/new-2003-turn-plan.txt if you want to know what happens on the way up, though 17:10 the ridden-monster-with-amulet bug is one of the two we found but it's slower 17:10 the best theoretical time we have with that is 2006, I think? 17:10 it's a very easy 2006 though, compared to this nightmarishly hard 2003 17:11 One interesting thing with the branchport skip though, is that it is simple enough that it can be executed by a human 17:11 for a non-TAS run 17:11 yes 17:11 (I think stenno even did in his ascension that was coming up when it was discovered, as a POC) 17:12 what is "polymorph to p/t form."? 17:12 piercer/trapper form 17:12 you can hide on the ceiling 17:12 LarienTelrunya: polymorph to any monster represented by a p or t 17:12 ah so they can fall onto a trap? 17:12 and then abuse an enexto quirk 17:12 time to play some game 17:12 what these monsters have in common is that they hide on the ceiling 17:12 games 17:12 which means that they can get knocked off on the monster turn 17:12 by a monster stumbling onto their square 17:13 and due to an oversight in the coding (which is IIRC fixed in 3.6), this can place you a long distance away if the level is very crowded 17:13 and the setup requires multiple methods of filling all the squares on the level so enexto chooses the portal I guess? 17:13 allowing you to "teleport" arbitrarily through walls etc if there is no space you can move to 17:13 yeah, something like that 17:14 LarienTelrunya: right 17:14 we use different methods for different levels 17:14 because some need more monsters than others 17:14 seems horrendously expensive and time consuming to pursue 17:14 aosdict: it's TAS stuff. 17:14 isn't eggbombing the easiest 17:14 aosdict: this is a TAS 17:14 it does crazy stuff 17:14 on Earth, for example, hostile monsters can summon enough monsters to fill the starting room up to the portal, but that doesn't have the volume elsewhere 17:14 which is kinda the point 17:14 ah, I thought it was because the turn undead trick only works once since it requires all the corpses to already be in the inventory 17:14 FIQ: it only works at turn boundaries 17:14 Not sure what that stands for. 17:15 turn undead only works once 17:15 Oh, tool-assisted speedrun? 17:15 yes 17:15 aosdict: If you haven't read turn-by-turn.txt, it's amusing. 17:15 the "speedrun" here is turncount-wise of course, since a realtime TAS of nethack would be pointless 17:15 given that it accepts input as fast as you send them 17:16 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 1425 points, T:1443, killed by a killer bee 17:16 Right, a realtime TAS of NetHack would largely be an exercise in how fast you can make your hardware go. 17:16 allthough I guess you could do "amount of inputs" as "realtime" 17:16 so, less inputs -> faster 17:16 jonadab: we're using a simulated old PC for the official timing 17:16 but aren't aiming for time anyway 17:17 Like, an actual 1980 IBM PC, the original? 17:17 allthough I guess that's similar to speedrun categories as "least amount of A presses" 17:17 *such as 17:17 (Should work. NetHack can run on worse hardware.) 17:18 jonadab: I'm not 100% sure what era of PC is being emulated 17:18 but it's not at all recent 17:18 I think it needs at least a 386 emulated processor though 17:19 FIQ: capital A isn't used that much anyway; just get yourself a letterbane and you're set 17:19 ais523: recently I added a new item into FIQhack... doing so while preserving save compat led to a problem 17:19 the game uses a version check to verify if the save is of a certain version 17:19 (not talking about fiqhack's own revisioning system, but the one that already exist in the NH4 save system) 17:19 should there be a version mismatch 17:20 the game will crash when working with autopickup setup 17:20 the reason adding an object in first place led to a version mismatch 17:20 is that apparently the game uses an "amount of monsters + objects" counter as a versioning thing 17:20 I had to make the versioning ignore this to work, but was it there for a reason? I don't think vanilla had it 17:21 Also the crash should perhaps be f ixed at some point 17:21 *fixed 17:21 I think vanilla had it? not sure though 17:21 I certainly didn't add it myself 17:21 maybe daniel_t did 17:21 ok 17:22 basically what happens is 17:22 in log.c:load_gamestate_from_binary_save 17:22 on the dorecover() 17:22 a version mismatch is seen 17:22 so it just returns 17:23 then on savegame(&mf), it crashes 17:23 when saving autopickup 17:23 probably mf isn't properly set up at that point 17:23 right 17:23 it wouldn't surprise me if that /was/ daniel_t's fault 17:23 I figured this was your code 17:23 since it has to do with the save system 17:23 not sure how much is left of the 4.2 stuff 17:25 oh, hmm 17:25 the save recheck 17:25 obviously if we don't load the save correctly, the check that it was loaded correctly will fail 17:25 that probably is my fault 17:26 that said, it's almost expected behaviour, the only problem is that there's a crash rather than a panic/impossible 17:26 well sure 17:26 I don't see the actual error condition as an issue 17:26 just that it would be nice with a nicer error message 17:27 rather than, well, a segfault :P 17:27 also it should be an emergency, neither a panic or impossible will save the situation 17:27 s/save/salvege/ 17:28 basically the "This game needs manual recovery" error condition, except a somewhat better description of what went wrong 17:29 ais523: oh, another thing -- you can bypass the name length check by setting name in options -- this means you can still cause a crash (allthough it seems like it's harder to causea crash for some reason? only with certain input was I able to crash the game that way and create a corrupted save that would crash the loadgame menu) 17:30 rather than "any input with a name length above 26 characters" 17:30 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 2113 points, T:1310, quit 17:31 also I should look into fixing that issue... atm I can't access "load game" in fiqhack's save menu on hdf due to it, and I decided not to pester k2 about it to remind me to fix it 17:35 this means that you can render the N4O view other people's games list useless, so yeah, it's a rather important bug 17:35 just a heads up 17:35 afk for now 17:38 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 17:38 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 17:41 [slex] dolores (Cam Ang Fem Cha), 8688 points, T:4711, killed by a monster (banished potatoes) 17:56 loli: have you ever died to the famous dissolved undead potato? 17:57 never 17:57 only this banished potato 17:59 dissolved undead potato is a hallumon in both 4k and fiqhack :P 18:04 interesting note: someone spammed the wiki with an amazon TV ad or something earlier, which included the word 4k. They're getting smarter! 18:05 have I made a joke about how fourk has the best graphics of any nethack variant at some point? I feel like I have 18:17 well it is 4k 18:18 I should play fourk in 4k 18:18 also do people often use auto explore at all? 18:19 does slex have to say "killed by a monster (X)" rather than just "killed by an X" because it's too hard to work out what's actually a monster from the death message? :-D 18:21 no idea, ask amy 18:21 are rangers broken im FIQ hack like they are in slex 18:21 is ranged just OP in most nethack variants? 18:21 well Amy is actually almost asleep already and will leave shortly :D but it was because of the unique deaths in junethack; IMHO all instances of "killed by a monster" should only count as one death, in all variants, not just in slex :P 18:21 anyway, good night! see you all tomorrow! 18:22 what 18:22 rangers is not OP in fiqhack no 18:22 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:22 however, they do have one thing they don't have anywhere else in fiqhack 18:22 in slex ranged is super op 18:22 autoswap 18:22 autoswap> 18:22 if you have a sword or whatever as your primary weapon 18:22 and a bow as your alternate weapon 18:22 aosdict: Well, Fourk _does_ ship with seven tilesets out of the box. 18:22 firing arrows will wield your bow automatically 18:23 awesome 18:23 and whacking things in melee will wield your sword automatically 18:23 also I can break 100k points in slex with ranged easily 18:23 it's so funny how broken it is in slex 18:23 text-ascii, text-legacy, text-unicode, slashem-16, dawnlike-16, rltiles-32, geoduck. 18:23 text-legacy? 18:23 I kind of want to add slashem-32 as well, but it's missing a bunch of tiles. 18:24 ais523: is there a way to enable 256color in libuncursed? 18:24 FIQ: text-legacy is the one that used to be called text-unicode but doesn't actually require unicode. 18:24 jonadab: ah 18:24 it is the default, I presume? 18:24 FIQ: libuncursed1, no, it doesn't have a concept of more than 16 colours internally 18:24 fiq: in sokoban, i can now tell which boulders have something under them. i don't think that was intended 18:24 FIQ: No. 18:24 I'll be fixing that in the next version 18:25 hothraxxa: technically I intended to simply just port the 3.x behaviour except fix some of the issues with it 18:25 namely the information leaks 18:25 jonadab: that's the same reason I didn't add slashem-32 18:25 however I don't really see that as a problem 18:25 that happens in 3.6? i don't recall that 18:25 the fact that you can see items beneath boulders that is 18:25 it's not a problem 18:25 hothraxxa: well 18:25 ais523: actually, at this point, _most_ of the tiles it's missing are specific to Fourk. 18:25 the issue with NH3 object pile highlighting 18:26 is that it doesn't really keep a memory of t 18:26 So I will probably do it, but likely not in time for .4 18:26 *it 18:26 but rather, it will just check the tile directly 18:26 FIQ: I like how seemlessly the UI works in FIQHack 18:26 I forgot I could basically enable the inventory by making my font smaller 18:26 this creates issues with specific-object-type detection, and will mean that you know if objects were dropped on a tile by a monster out of sight 18:26 because now there will be a blue background 18:27 aha! i've seen that 18:27 same thing if monsters pick items up from an object pile out of sight 18:27 the blue will disappear 18:27 yeah 18:27 that is the kind of thing I wanted to address in fiqhack 18:27 this has, however, created some other issues that I don't quite understand as of yet 18:27 that I need to look into 18:27 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:27 namely, if an object pile has been looted out of sight 18:27 ok. i thought i'd mention it is all 18:27 and you see it 18:27 the blue remains 18:28 I don't know why 18:28 yeah and you can't make it go away 18:28 because I unhighlight object piles in that case 18:28 oh you can 18:28 just drop an object on the tile 18:28 ok i didn't figure out how then 18:28 ah 18:28 Actually, come to think of it, if I do slashem-32 tiles for Fourk, doing them for NH4 also becomes easy. 18:28 but yeah 18:28 you shouldn't need to 18:29 i was just trying to see if i could 18:29 ais523: do you know of a case where the game unmaps objects from map memory without relying on unmap_object() ? 18:29 FIQ: not offhand, I'm not really experienced in that part of the code 18:29 makes sense 18:29 sick, FIQ the entire game changes colors with your hp, that's a nice touch 18:29 I'm not either 18:29 I wouldn't be surprised either at it happening nowhere or it happening somewhere 18:30 also, "change the interface colour on low HP" is a recent NH4 thing, I think? 18:30 loli: a lot of the things in fiqhack actually originate in NH4 18:30 but tons of people never see it because they play 80×24 18:30 allthough it's less subtle in fiqhack because I changed the colors 18:30 to be more obvious 18:30 NH4 has a bug regarding frame colors making the brighter colors not work correctly 18:30 despite it trying (but failing) to use them 18:30 FIQ: I think this is a gamma problem? I still have a half-written bug report about that 18:31 no it is a simple issue 18:31 oh, hmm, interesting 18:31 FIQhack addresses it 18:31 Interesting indeed. 18:31 hold on, let me check where the fix is 18:31 also what makes ranged not broken in FIQ hack? 18:31 is it a libuncursed bug or an NH4-UI bug? 18:32 K2: The bugfix I just pushed is significant to anyone who gets a certain castle level. 18:34 found it 18:34 init_pair(MAINFRAME_PAIR, fgcode + (mainframe_color > 7 ? 8 : 0), bgcode); 18:34 in draw_statuses() 18:34 (which also deals with changing the frame colors 18:34 ) 18:34 that is the fiqhack code 18:34 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:34 in NH4/4k, it's just init_pair(MAINFRAME_PAIR, fgcode, bgcold) 18:35 *bgcode 18:35 loli: ranged was never broken 18:35 slex might have done something weird 18:35 really!??! 18:35 but in nethack vanilla, it isn't that strong compared to (better) melee weapons 18:35 but arrows do a lot of damage, and are good close range 18:35 it's insane how strong they are in slex 18:35 that might just be a slex thing then 18:36 I mean, yeah, arrows do a bit more damage 18:36 but they mulch 18:36 so you can't rely on it always 18:36 ais523: notably the fgcode part 18:36 don't some enemies have a lot of arrows? 18:36 Fourk has adjusted the ammo mulch rate so that if you're a ranger and #enhance when possible, you can rely on arrows for all combat. 18:36 loli: sure 18:36 +0 arrows 18:36 (usually) 18:37 Roles with lower skill caps are not guaranteed this, of course. 18:37 FIQ: oh, it's just specific to the frame-drawing code itself? 18:37 right, easy fix n that case 18:37 yeah but I didn't understand why it was needed 18:37 why doesn't pair_content do the right thing 18:38 oh, if you're /reading/ a colour, it can't distinguish between bold and bright 18:38 ais523: also I changed the frame color rules a bit to something I think was more reasonable 18:38 _reading_ a color? 18:38 Is that even possible? 18:38 that's what pair_content does, I think? 18:38 notably, more different colors 18:39 and better order of troubles 18:39 but only from the libuncursed internal state, not actually from the terminal 18:39 Ah. 18:39 I see. 18:39 in fiqhack, the order is 18:40 alters don't go away outside of slex! 18:42 replaymode (darkgray) > 1/7 or less HP (red) > delayed instadeath (bright magenta) > 1/3 or less HP ("orange") > fainting from lack of food (magenta) > weak from food (brown) > 2/3 max HP (yellow) > nothing (gray) 18:42 you have a repaint-the-interface warning at 2/3 max HP? 18:43 that seems like it could annoy some people 18:43 like, it's subtly suggesting "you should always be very near max HP" 18:43 I find it reasonable myself 18:43 And so far nobody complained 18:44 ais523: I wanted to make it less subtle in general how your HP situation was 18:44 I mean, HP bar is nice, but I like having the frame colorized based on HP too 18:45 ais523: btw, I thought libuncursed was supposed to fix darkgray silliness? 18:46 FIQ: it tries its best 18:46 a discord person who was playing fiqhack yesterday had a fiqhack session that looked like this: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/205316704106971136/352639573266006016/Screen_Shot_2017-08-30_at_7.23.24_PM.png?width=500&height=313 18:46 what terminal is that? 18:46 I can ask 18:49 ais523: btw, is it possible to do per-character/word colors in the windowing system? 18:49 like, say if I made an enhanced monster lookup thingy 18:50 and wanted to highlight resists in various colors so that players could more easily see them without having to skim through 18:50 FIQ: I don't think there's a way to express that over the API 18:50 hmmm ok 18:50 there were plans for fixing this but they were part of grammartree 18:50 and, well… 18:50 :P 18:52 FIQ: I'm not comfortable with that order. I'd think fainting would be more critical than low HP, for instance, because it tends to _cause_ low HP in situations where you could otherwise handle the enemies easily. 18:53 jonadab: Did you push the livelog replaymode fix upstream? 18:54 Also, yeah, I can see what you mean 18:54 I think 1/7 or less HP should prevail 18:54 FIQ: Yes, on the livelog branch, and also on 4.3-maint IIRC. 18:54 Less sure with 1/3 or less 18:54 ok 19:01 jonadab: ok got it. will update now 19:02 NetHack Fourk updated 19:02 and live 19:03 At this rate, I will definitely have 4.3.0.4 ready to go in time for Junethack. 19:03 nice ;) 19:03 The verdict is still out on 4.3.0.5 19:03 FIQ: fix your bugs! 19:03 * K2 pesters FIQ to pester me about fixing bugs 19:05 arrows seem a lot rarer in FIQ hack... hmmm 19:05 I might eventually run low 19:07 hiya ais523 19:08 joined the channel and everyone pounced ;) 19:08 jesus arrows have weight to them! 19:08 and hello ais523 19:08 potions have weight as well!?!? 19:09 loli why wouldnt they? 19:09 in slex they don't 19:09 K2: ? 19:09 what bugs 19:09 you've become spoiled 19:09 in slex nothing weighs you down 19:09 even food here weighs you down 19:09 jesus 19:09 as it should 19:09 does wearing armor take it's weight off of you? 19:09 even jesus would weigh you down\ 19:09 in fiqhack, partially yes 19:09 loli: in some variants yes 19:09 jesus is too heavy to carry 19:10 wearing armor will only take half of the carrycap 19:10 K2: only in fiqhack to my knowledge 19:10 he may be lighter than you think 19:10 I see why people make stashes 19:10 he could walk on water... 19:10 <-- finds stashies annoying 19:10 at least there are no annoying traps to backtrap through 19:10 can jesus reduce my weight? 19:10 probably 19:10 I have considered adding carrying as an armor property 19:11 increasing carrycap by 10% 19:11 do I need a pick in fiqhack 19:11 or can I forgo it? 19:11 loli: in all other variants and vanilla nethack, everything has weight 19:12 so finding a bag of holding is kind of a Big Deal™ 19:12 lame 19:12 at least soko is less evil here 19:12 hah 19:13 rip fuck 19:13 > becomes weaker 19:13 > becomes burdened 19:15 Freakitsar's ghost; dagger on other objects; grave 19:15 THIS GHOST SHALL BURN! 19:16 fuck I've pissed off the guards 19:16 so don't mess with watchman duly noted 19:16 games that aren't slex feel a lot more baren with the enemies 19:16 I didn't really fight that many creatures nor felt like I was fighting hard 19:17 [fh] dolores (Ran Elf Fem Cha), 34937 points, T:2816, killed by a watch captain 19:23 slex is too nice in many ways 19:23 [gh] phollenback (Hea Hum Mal Neu), 177 points, T:244, killed by a goblin's bolt of cold 19:44 ais523: hmm, line 665-666 in mhitu.c in NH3.6.1 seems suspect 19:44 is that right? 19:44 664 case AT_TENT: 19:44 665 if (!range2 && (!MON_WEP(mtmp) || mtmp->mconf || Conflict 19:44 666 || !touch_petrifies(youmonst.data))) { 19:45 (it's case AT_CLAW, KICK, BITE, STNG, TUCH, BUTT and TENT, not just TENT) 19:45 I think that is supposed to be a MON_WEP, not a !MON_WEP 19:46 right, being weaponless doesn't seem like the sort of thing you'd add in a check alongside being confused, conflicted, and not attacking a petrifier 19:46 oh wait, I think I see the idea 19:46 the latter three make attacking more reasonable, the first makes it less reasonable 19:46 basically I think the idea is, if a monster has a weapon + claw attack 19:46 don't claw a petrifier, but keep using the weapon attack 19:46 or, hmm, is this check checking to see whether the monster should attack with a nonweapon, specifically? 19:46 but if the monster doesn't wield a weapon 19:46 that would make some amount of sense 19:46 then proc the claw attack anyway 19:47 I think? 19:47 (or tentacle, etc) 19:47 the reasoning could be "don't use your aux attacks against a petrifier, do use your main attack against a petrifier" 19:47 yeah 19:47 I can see that 19:48 but I am pretty sure the player doesn't get to do this 19:48 nor do I think monster-versus-monster does 19:49 (the lines are also there in NH4, I asked about NH3 because it might be a NH3 issue too) 19:49 664 case AT_TENT: 19:49 665 if (!range2 && (!MON_WEP(mtmp) || mtmp->mconf || Conflict 19:49 666 || !touch_petrifies(youmonst.data))) { 19:49 oops, wrong paste 19:49 [1:08 AM] PyroL: iTerm2 with agnoster (Solarized Dark) but it's not a bug I was custom editing colors and made a couple the same for aesthetics which I now regret 19:49 ais523: ^ btw 19:50 oh, do you really expect uncursed to handle that? :-P 19:50 (it is in fact possible to handle that on some terminals, although it's unclear what the reaction should be other than forcibly changing the palette; and it only happens if the user asks to use their own palette anyway, so…) 19:51 meanwhile, I believe several variants have decided that the best behaviour is for the player to not use nonweapon attacks if they have a weapon and are attacking a petrifier 19:51 ais523: Not really 19:51 Just giving a response to the earlier question 19:51 To have that resolved :P 20:03 Solarized is a color scheme that's designed to violate the usual assumptions about what the 16 ANSI colors are. 20:03 Specifically, at least four of them are different shades of blue. 20:04 I think it's inspired by something that Sun users were familiar with at some point. 20:06 Ah, I misremembered: there are four shades of blue-gray, two of very-dark-blue-almost-black, two of really-light-beige-almost-white, and then one each of yellow, red, orange, pink, purple, blue, aqua, and green. 20:06 So the whole "two different brightnesses of each color" thing is not what it does at all. 20:07 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 20:11 !tell K2 updated fiqhack 20:11 Will do, FIQ! 20:11 jonadab: cyans are fairly blue 20:11 added properties: carrying and nasty 20:12 ais523: cyan (not really brightcyan) is also greenish 20:13 ok 20:13 K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-08-31 20:11 EDT: updated fiqhack 20:13 will get to it after i eat 20:13 ais523: cyans are halfway between blue and green; the English-speaking world considers this a shade of blue, but then, the Japanese world considers grass-green a shade of blue as well, so. 20:13 carrying: +10% carrycap, stacks with other carrying properties 20:14 nasty: +3d6 damage, does +1d6 to you whenever you use it in melee, even if the attack misses 20:14 (does still work without hurting you in ranged, but since it only appears on melee weapons..) 20:15 (There's also teal, which is more green than blue, and aqua, which is more blue than green.) 20:15 >grass-green >shade of blue 20:15 wat 20:15 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16 FIQ: Well, they consider it a shade of ao, which is normally translated "blue" in English. 20:16 -!- ais523 has joined #hardfought 20:16 They do have a word that is specifically green ("Midori"), but it's a fairly recent addition to the language. 20:17 Sort of like English specific-shade words like "teal" and whatnot. 20:25 -!- Webmant9 is now known as Webmant 21:24 [fh] Freakitsar (jonadab) (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 21427 points, T:1354, killed by a Mr. Izchak, the shopkeeper 21:24 ^ Used force bolt to kill a monster, at a diagonal, didn't realize shop door was several tiles beyond the monster. 21:30 killed by a Mr. Izchak 21:31 ais523: I think that name quirk might exist in NH4 too 21:32 quite possibly 21:32 the mistake here is the "a", I think, the rest of it's fine 21:32 yeah 21:32 the a should go 21:36 ais523: not sure if I asked, sorry if I have -- but one change I did in fiqhack to reduce the "aww man, I got this shitty artifact" feeling, was to split up the various means you could acquire an artifact to be independent of each other 21:36 so that god gifts only affect further gifts, artiwishes only affect further wishes, and so on 21:36 I don't think you mentioned that 21:37 (to compensate, I also nerfed the artiwish freebies to 1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc rather than 1, 1, 2/3, 2/4, 2/5, etc) 21:37 do you think this is a reasonable change? 21:39 it won't make a huge difference with "typical" strategies 21:39 basically I wanted to remove the feeling of disappointment just because you found an artifact you didn't like 21:39 because they typically have one sacgift/fountain gift pre-Castle 21:39 and then one artiwish at the castle 21:39 so that *at worst* it's a "meh" 21:39 and you have the same results here 21:40 mhm 21:40 I think you'd have to ask conduct players, speedrunners, or other people who do bizarre things 21:40 well without this change, if Ogresmasher and Trollsbane randomly generated on the ground, people would feel rather disappointed 21:40 it does mean that naming Sting now has no downside 21:40 (Of course, you can improve the artifacts, but this doesn't change that feeling for people who don't like a particular artifact, even if it isn't "bad") 21:40 ais523: Indeed 21:41 this is basically just a headroom argument :-) 21:41 I did consider this, but considered it a non-issue 21:41 should players be forced to live with the artifacts that generate, or should they be able to choose artifacts to fit their character? 21:41 NetHack's typically a high-headroom game, which would make your change a good thing 21:41 one thing I like in fiqhack unlike grunthack/dynahack when it comes to object properties 21:41 is that you are completely at the mercy of the RNG when it comes to object properties 21:42 you can't wish for them 21:42 at all 21:42 I'm OK with that, I think 21:42 how are they implemented internally, btw? 21:42 There is an oprops field for objects 21:42 I'm seriously considering pitching dtsund-DSM to the devteam and it has some very similar properties 21:42 containing a bitflag of properties 21:43 oh, bitflag 21:43 so you can have objects with arbitrarily many properties as long as they're different? 21:43 yes 21:43 generally in the code when you query object properties 21:44 rather than checking oprops directly, you poll obj_properties(object) 21:44 which does some filtering for sane properties 21:44 this also happens on wishing, polymorph, etc -- obj->oprops = obj_properties(obj) 21:44 I assume that you used this new method for, e.g., the alchemy smock? 21:44 ensuring that it is kept sane 21:44 alchemy smocks, and other base items, still use the old method 21:44 in 3.4.3 it's implemented as though it were an artifact 21:45 in order to handle it having two immunities rather than one 21:45 mostly because adding an oprop for poison res and having it guranteed on alchemy smocks implies also naming it something "of poison resistance" or similar 21:45 naming and properties should be independent, really 21:46 the dtsund-DSM hypothetical-patch lets you combine dragonhide with arbitrary armour 21:46 to produce, say, "red dragon splint mail" which would be splint mail that gives fire resistance 21:46 [fh] Freakitsar (jonadab) (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 33033 points, T:2177, killed by a Mr. Izchak, the shopkeeper 21:46 Heh, should've changed my character name, in case I got those bones. 21:47 what seems rational to me is to have a permanent object property mask and the same bitflag as a per-object mask 21:48 you might as well just initialize the object flags from the "permobj" in that case; comes to the same thing but is a) more efficient, b) makes it possible to remove a property from an item that it'd usually have 21:48 Then, if you want an object's behavior, you just | them together, but getting the object's name should only look at the per-object one 21:48 you could ^ them to determine how to construct the name 21:49 hmm, exor would only work if you don't implement the property removal thing 21:50 would still work, you can figure out if it's added or removed by seeing which of the masks has it 21:50 okay, sure 21:53 ais523: here's an example of how to add a new property, to explain how it works: http://sprunge.us/SGUI 21:53 that double L is already going to keep that approach out of vanilla ;-) 21:54 :P 21:54 It actually fits in a u32 atm 21:54 I just made it big enough, just in case 21:54 #define opm_all 0x0000000000ffffffLLU 21:54 what are the sanity checks for? 21:54 is there any circumstance where thy could fail? 21:55 Mostly to make it easier to track down bugs 21:55 * aosdict would run away from a double L too 21:55 By making it fail fast 21:55 L a lich (64-bit lich) 21:55 E.g. I had an issue where in corner cases, artifacts could generate with properties 21:56 oh, I see, it spams impossibles rather than just removing the property? that makes sense 21:56 No, it gives *one* impossible 21:56 Forget the double L, just make it a uint64_t :-) 21:56 in the save code 21:56 and then immediately removes it 21:56 jonadab: you need the double L even with a uint64_t 21:56 ais523: Oh, right, on the constant you initialize it to. 21:57 or, hmm, maybe you don't 21:57 ais523: http://sprunge.us/fbOj this is done in the save code 21:57 there are rules for automatically guessing types for constants 21:57 there are places where they can fail but I don't think this is one of them 21:58 I suppose doing obj_properties() rather than polling oprops directly outside the save code is fine. Just that it would do weird things, even for just a turn 21:58 So I figured, better safe than sorry 21:58 It hasn't been a performance issue 21:58 er, *polling oprops directly rather than doing obj_properties() 21:59 ais523: Do you think it would be more reasonable to simply only do the sanity check in the save code? 22:00 (and whenever the object changes in any way, obviously, like when polymorphed) 22:01 FIQ: I think so; it feels weird to be postprocessing the value but with basically all instances of doing that intended to be unnecessary 22:01 it gives a false idea of how the code works 22:01 Hmm, I suppose 22:01 OTOH, accessors are nearly always better than a raw field 22:01 in case you need to change the storage at some potin 22:01 Well it's not generally how the NetHack code works 22:02 I would probably just make obj_properties a macro to read the field 22:02 It just polls fields directly 22:03 FIQ: yes, which has caused problems in the past; it's done that way for performance 22:03 ais523: Regarding the dragon scale thing. IMO what makes sense here is to have *one* type of dragon scales, and use corpsenm to define where it comes from 22:03 Then you can use the same trick if you are merging a dragon scale into an existing armor 22:03 in my day job I use Java, where you can just take a field and tell the IDE "encapsulate this field" and it'll give you accessors and use them all over the code, but I'm not sure if C IDEs have something like that 22:03 This also allows you to have crocodile-originating low boots aptly named 22:04 And similar 22:04 FIQ: ooh, armour with corpsenm? 22:04 Without adding semi-redundant objects for it 22:04 Yeah 22:04 this is actually a really interesting idea because corpsenm already exists, meaning that the change wouldn't break save compat 22:05 If I were making dragon scales today, and they didn't exist earlier 22:05 this is what I would do 22:06 ais523: anyway, so your idea regarding object properties is basically 22:06 change the function name to sanity_object_properties or whatever 22:07 and have a #define object_properties(o) (o->oprops) 22:07 yep, I'd be more comfortable with that 22:07 which is used in the ge neral case 22:07 *general case 22:07 also, should be ((o)->oprops) 22:07 mhm 22:08 ais523: Do you think the design otherwise is fine? 22:09 Of the implementation, that is 22:09 yes, although I'll probably use a different one if I implement things myself in NH3, mostly to be less intrusive on the existing code 22:09 it's a design I might use in NH4 22:09 ah 22:09 OBTW, I was considering implementing spell maintenance as a bilious patch 22:09 was unsure on how to do this while preserving save compat 22:10 people in here suggested using one of the objects[] flags 22:10 which spellbooks don't use 22:10 does that seem reasonable 22:10 I think it does 22:10 preserving save compat for that will be hacky no matter how you do it 22:10 Sure 22:10 so pick whatever works and seems unlikely to have major bad side effects 22:10 But I want it to be the least intrusive way 22:10 FIQhack updated 22:10 And be sanest 22:11 the major reason I am looking at spell maint in particular 22:11 is that out of all fiqhack features, I think it's the one that has been the most positively received 22:11 pretty much nobody has expressed dislike of it 22:11 I like the general concept, and think that the details would possibly be hard to work out 22:11 so if you have a working set of details, that people like, that's really encouraging 22:12 it was also ported to dnethack quite recently, so it's clearly doable in NH3 without much hassle 22:12 (in dnethack's case it was part of a version bump though, so it breaks saves) 22:12 as someone who has never played fiqhack but has heard a lot about spell maintenance, it seems pretty good for hilighting some problems with spells 22:12 aosdict: one thing it does 22:12 is expose a clear issue with protection being too strong 22:13 yes, things like that 22:13 right, protection is "balanced by UI" 22:13 did you nerf protection to compensate? 22:15 I did not, so far 22:15 Mostly because I didn't anticipate how strong it was 22:15 Because nobody uses it 22:15 Allthough I've had plenty of time to do so since 22:15 there are some very broken spells in NetHack 22:15 But haven't figured out a way to do it in a good way 22:15 charm monster, for example, is close to an autowin by itself as soon as it becomes reliably castable 22:15 One suggestion that was put in here a while back 22:15 I know I've completed /dev/null/nethack games using only that, basically 22:16 was making it only work if you weren't wearing armor 22:16 that's how the D&D equivalent works 22:16 Yeah, I think Chris_ANG was the one suggesting it 22:16 if anyone here is into D&D, it's him :P 22:16 ais523: a sentiment heard here a lot recently is that renewable resources like spells should never be as powerful or more powerful than consumables 22:16 (dNetHack maintainer) 22:17 which, yeah, haste self, charm monster, invisibility, cure blindness 22:17 those last two aren't the best examples 22:17 aosdict: that's not necessarily the case; something like a wand of light is useful for valks for occasional lighting up of an area, even though it's basically useless for any wizard who can cast "light" 22:17 ais523: one thing I have considered to do with charm monster is to make it able to tame creatures more realibly than now, but only be able to do it for *one* creature 22:18 and the spell of polymorph is way harder to use than the wand of polymorph 22:18 so that people who only use charm monster because they want pets can keep using it to that effect 22:18 but it can't be used to break the game anymore 22:18 however, I wouldn't want most consumables to be replaceable by spells until the very very late game 22:18 FIQ: yes, you'd want something like that 22:18 ais523: wand rebalance makes wands of light, and other "useless" wands useful with enough skill :P 22:19 in Brogue, taming is a wand with very limited charges, and it only works on enemies with low current HP 22:19 (in the case of wands of light -- at master, it lights up the entire level) 22:19 which, come to think of it, is basically how Pokémon works 22:19 yeah 22:19 same principe 22:19 I still think a more "advanced" light (skilled wand/spell) should shoot a blinding ray of light 22:19 aosdict: expensive cameras 22:20 does that basically 22:20 though of course, this replaces the consumable cameras. 22:20 * aosdict shrugs 22:20 well 22:20 I guess it's technically a consumable 22:20 but it has so many charges 22:20 compared to how much you might use it 22:21 yani: blessed scroll of light lights the entire level 22:21 light is one of the only consumable effects that has 3 things backing it up 22:21 rather than 2 22:21 spell, scroll and wand 22:21 if we're going around making light-related objects "actually useful" 22:22 create monster is the only other one I think 22:22 I think the scroll is mostly there to dilute the item pool 22:22 or for blanking 22:22 which reminds me 22:22 a /oL is arguably useful, a ?oL is too limited to be worth it 22:22 aosdict: you were the one who wanted to reverse the BUC effect of create monster, right? 22:22 I think the main advantage of a ?oL is the cursed effect, which is at least unique 22:22 speaking of utility items 22:23 ais523: what if failing to cast a spell drained memory + hunger drastically? 22:24 to prevent the case where having stuff like identify at 90% fail 22:24 making it more of an annoyance/tedium 22:24 rather than actually preventing you from casting it 22:24 FIQ: well the failure chance is certainly relevant for combat spells 22:24 Of course 22:24 This was mostly for the purpose of utility spells 22:24 identity and polymorph are the major special cases 22:25 I suggested it here a while ago and IIRC people in here disliked it 22:25 was a while ago though 22:25 DCSS has experimented with massive penalties for failing to spellcast 22:25 the results weren't all that great 22:26 I agree that fixing this might be worthwhile, but am not sure I agree with your suggested fix 22:26 ais523: I'm thinking stuff like draining 50 hunger and a full 1% drain of memory 22:26 So that failing once isn't much of an issue 22:26 but failing over and over is 22:26 there's also the issue of stripping off to cast utility spells when you normally use armour 22:26 which maybe isn't even a problem? 22:27 ais523: I don't like dcss miscast 22:27 And no, I don't consider this a problem 22:27 I just want to remove the tedium that is trying to cast a spell over and over when you clearly can't really cast it 22:28 maybe a failure to cast a spell should lock that spell out for a period of time based on failure rate? 22:28 although you'd need to take care that that didn't just turn into a slow-motion grind 22:28 That worsens the problem rather than fixing it I think 22:28 basically 22:28 something with the right gameplay effects would require you to, say, enter a new dungeon level or kill a monster, but that makes zero flavour sense 22:28 go to your stash or whatever place you consider safe 22:28 lock yourself in 22:29 try to cast it 22:29 you failed? 100s 22:29 then try again 22:29 etc 22:29 basically the new part is the 100s 22:29 YASI: add Charm Monster to spell maintenance: if it's maintained, you autocast it any time a hostile monster is present. 22:29 other than that, nothing really changed 22:29 jonadab: hah 22:29 jonadab: oh, I thought you were going to say "you have to maintain the spell to prevent the monster untaming" 22:29 which would work gameplay-wise but probably not UI-wise 22:32 FIQ: yes, I had that idea about create monster, but I'm ambivalent since it's really hard to quantify which effect is "good" and which is "bad" 22:32 aosdict: for comparision, wand rebalance summons more monsters the stronger your wand skill is 22:33 FIQ: My problem with the spell success rate formula is that there's almost no such thing as a medium-difficulty spell. Either a spell is easy, and you can get better than 50% success rate, or else it's hard, and you're lucky to get 95% fail rate. 22:33 from the perspective of "blessed is more powerful and cursed is less powerful/corrupted", yes absolutely swap the effects 22:34 jonadab: that's just a result of t he spell success formula being a mess 22:34 but there are some (probably intentional) strategies around creating circumstances where it's safe to read a scroll if blessed 22:34 and having the "bad" scroll effects be amplified by blessing would ruin those strategies 22:34 would it really 22:34 is ?oCM meant to be a trap, or useful? it's one of those few items that can act as both 22:34 it would just make it a more interesting choice 22:35 and just entails more preparation 22:35 aosdict: FWIW, scrolls is the major thing I never use-test, ever 22:35 otoh, paxed removed one of the negative blessed 100zm scroll effects recently 22:35 unless RNG is conspiring against me hard for some reason 22:35 (fire, because now you won't be consumed in flames because it's blessed) 22:36 I generally rely on price id, or ID scrolls (itself gotten through price id) for it 22:36 same 22:36 I consider scrolls the single most important thing to pricecheck. 22:36 also, if price id was to be removed 22:36 FOr most roles. 22:36 then scrolls of ID should auto-ID when you see them 22:36 (For Monk, books may be slightly more important to pricecheck, depending on the situation.) 22:36 NetHack item ID suffers from being too regimented and predictable nowadays 22:36 to kickstart the ID process 22:36 "nowdays"? 22:37 it hasn't changed much the last few decades :P 22:37 ais523: I like NetHack item ID a lot better than Brogue item ID. 22:37 me too 22:37 it actually has several ways to ID things 22:37 Yes, it's complicated: but you have _options_. 22:37 jonadab: right 22:37 Brogue has options too, just not as many 22:37 the one major thing I dislike about nethack IDing 22:37 is price id 22:38 like two or three, typically, and often only one will be applicable in any given game 22:38 perhaps the potential consequences of use testing should be reduced somewhat 22:38 also I think price id is considered one of nethack's worst features among non-nethack players 22:38 (who still play roguelikes, and aren't deterred by its archaic UI) 22:38 for example, I want to make even low level non-spellcasters get a warning when they pick up and try to read a way out of depth spellbook 22:39 aosdict: Why? The consequences of use-testing are just as bad in Brogue, despite the fact that you literally have no other choice at all. 22:39 SLASH'EM made uncursed books guranteed to work 22:39 FIQ: I had a price ID overhaul planned which works like this: each item class is assigned to a "price band", with only four price bands; exact prices of individual item classes are randomized, using the price bands as a guide; price bands show up as adjectives on unIDed items ("an expensive scroll labeled KIRJE"); some items can potentially fall into more than one price band 22:39 (Ok, not _quite_ as bad; hallucination doesn't make you kill your pet in Brogue.) 22:39 aosdict: Oh, spellbooks. 22:39 with vanilla spellbook reading potential outcomes, the best strategy is never read spellbooks until you can price-ID or formally ID them. Which is bad. 22:39 Spellbooks are a good point. 22:40 Because they're _heavy_, and price-checking them is therefore tedious. 22:40 the idea behind this is a) the UI is much better as you don't need to name items explicitly, b) the price ID information is vaguer and can lead to you testing differently from game to game due to items moving between bands 22:40 I guess I'd be OK with spellbook level being identifiable without a shop 22:40 in D&D, higher-level spellbooks would be heavier, due to having more pages 22:40 so that'd be one way 22:41 jonadab: Also, potions are pretty good! Most of the bad ones can be checked independently 22:41 ais523: I think the best way to do this in nethack context would be to have the appearances be more complex as levels go up 22:41 But scrolls have the same problem as spellbooks, no way to distinguish short of price ID or formal ID 22:41 FIQ: that could work too 22:41 aosdict: potions aren't important to identify early because the ones that matter get identified by monster use anyway. 22:42 potions also have safe use-ID techniques 22:42 that was my point, yes 22:42 potions is the safest item class to use-ID in nethack 22:42 armor 22:42 Pet-test and wear. 22:42 OA 22:43 FIQ: how would you propose to have the appearances be more complex? 22:43 aosdict: "a blue spellbook" versus "a steel spellbook" versus "a bone spellbook" versus "a jewel-encrusted spellbook" 22:43 aosdict: red spellbook -> lowlevel, jewel-encrusted spellbook -> highlevel 22:43 simple, somewhat unusual for a book but still plausible, somewhat ridiculous, obviously over the to 22:43 *top 22:44 yeah, pretty much 22:44 And just shuffle within each price bracket? 22:44 jonadab: right 22:44 (Or pair of price brackets maybe; levels 1-2, levels 3-4, levels 5-6, and level 7+.) 22:45 when is nethack getting its own Spellbook of Wish 22:45 jonadab: good idea. 22:45 FIQ: When it becomes slex. 22:45 slex probably has it already 22:45 ADOM's spell of wish is pretty well designed 22:45 Not randomly generated, takes 299 ink to write, is level 100 so you need 500 Pw to cast it 22:45 ais523: I like it 22:45 YASI: add Spellbook of Wish to the game, but it's a level-27 spell, so nobody can cast it. 22:46 I also want to create an archmage at some point in ADOM 22:46 getting it reliably castable is considerably harder than winning the game, and in fact is considered one of the ultimate conduct-like goals in ADOM 22:46 (archmage is the term for getting wish castable repeatedly without longterm reprecussions) 22:47 FIQ: I'm gonna die again. I ran into a player monster with a wand of sleep, so I was retreating... and then a unicorn shows up, blocking my retreat path. 22:47 jonadab: any way to force the u to teleport? 22:48 [fh] Jonadab (jonadab) (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 36596 points, T:2963, killed by a white unicorn 22:48 you can often do that with just movement, but might not have enouhh time 22:48 I didn't have enough time. 22:48 ais523: I played through an ADOM game recently as a wizard. Went into the library, which, for wizards, is guranteed to have every book in the game, which of course includes Wish. Went into a safe place to read it. Got a spell "memory" of 18 (general level for spells is like 200+ for wizards), and it wanted 5490pp to cast it (magic missile costs 5) 22:48 I zapped the player monster with slow monster and tried to retreat a different way. 22:48 But then the unicorn teleported to get in my way AGAIN. 22:48 I never came even close to casting that spell :P 22:49 after winning it 22:49 what's the highest level spell that would be theoretically castable? 22:49 The 2nd highest-level spell is Create Item, which costed 150pp for my wizard 22:50 Which was definitely castable 22:50 (my max PP was around 600 in the end) 22:50 (The spell PP cost has a base cost, but if you have very low spell memory, like I had with wish, it goes up drastically) 22:51 which for Wish is 3000 I think, with the wizard boosts, it would go down to 1000 afaik 22:51 but if you're making an archmage, you don't want to merely be able to cast the spell "normally" 22:51 but rather, you want to be able to "book cast" it (cast it when having the corresponding book), which costs much more pp, but doesn't drain spell memory, 22:52 huh, if I'm reading this correctly, a robe allows a monk with no negative modifiers to cast any spell at at least a 12% success rate, regardless of skill or level 22:52 hm that reminds me 22:52 a wizard has an 8% minimum success rate 22:52 this should be very simple to wiztest 22:53 one way to balance high% of utility spells 22:53 would be to make the PP cost proportional to failure rate 22:53 er, Pw 22:53 so 2x cost at 50% fail, 4x cost at 75%, 10x cost at 90% 22:53 also, this implies that without a robe, a large shield limits you to 30% success max 22:54 FIQ: and then get rid of failure rate entirely? 22:54 More or less 22:54 FIQ: that doesn't help the grind though. 22:54 You just have to wait forever to recover the Pw and try again. 22:54 unless it's your special spell 22:55 aosdict: if you have identify at 90% fail, it's going to cost 150 22:55 aosdict: depends on whether there are consequences to waiting for Pw, and what your maxPw is 22:55 if you can't even cast such a simple spell 22:55 you probably don't even have 150 max Pw to begin with 22:55 a level 7 spell at 99% fail would only be castable if you had 3500 maxPw, and you probably don't 22:57 polymorph is level 7 in fiqhack 22:57 just though I'd mention that 22:57 -!- ais523 has quit [] 22:59 so, this would remove failure rate, but still require calculating it? 22:59 yes 22:59 -!- bug_sniper has joined #hardfought 23:05 jonadab: ouch 23:05 jonadab: wait, you played gnomish wizard? 23:06 it's usually possible to trick the unicorn into walking into a place where you can get it with raybouncing 23:26 FIQ: Replacing fail rate with Pw cost multiplier makes sense, if the amount of Pw is exposed in the spell-cast menu. 23:27 And ones you don't have enough MaxPw to cast even at full Pw should be in one color, ones you have enough max Pw for but not enough current Pw in another, ones you can cast right now in a third color, and forgotten spells in a fourth color. 23:27 (Red/Yellow/Green/Purple perhaps.) 23:40 Well, at least let this be customizable in options, and default to a sane set of options.