14:41 -!- mode/Beholder [+Zi] by Beholder 14:41 -!- karatkievich.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ SporkHack updated to 0.6.5, includes dungeon overview patch. GruntHack to receive the same patch soon. dNetHack 3.15.1 is now live 14:41 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ 14:41 [slex] dolores (Mah Nor Fem Neu), 61 points, T:173, killed by a monster (marine goblin) 14:41 Which helps with paci, but only so much. 14:41 just in time 14:41 hah 14:41 beholder now updated to track slex 2.0.2 14:42 yay! 14:42 !players 14:42 K2: dolores [slex] elenmirie [nd] groovejumper [dyn] 14:47 [slex] prozacelf (Mys Roh Fem Law), 0 points, T:60, killed by an arrow 14:47 jonadab: yes, I was 500 lines back when I said that and saw it on the next screen 14:49 Ok. Backscroll is a thing. I kind of want my IRC client to have a backscroll mode wherein I can type responses and they go into a buffer, and then when I catch up I can edit them if desired before submitting them, individually. 14:50 I mean, I could fake that with a separate text editor, but who has the patience to bother with that? 14:51 EPI: scroll of backscroll. Replaces the next 500 messages with the 500 previous messages, in the same order they first appeared. 14:51 and dont forget, we have this now as well - https://www.hardfought.org/irclog/ 14:52 I need to ask Tangles if he can program beholder to rotate the log at midnight instead of just every 24 hrs from when it was last started 14:54 [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 4336 points, T:3122, killed by a dog 14:57 aosdict: And naturally monsters can get the scroll of backscroll as a miscellaneous item and will read it as soon as they see you. Of course. <--EPI 14:58 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:6071 15:03 jonadab: yeah, right. sparse registers. that's something I always forget about the x86 architecture. 15:21 Yeah, there were I think about eight, but that's counting the code pointer and everything. 15:21 The "general-purpose" registers were just AX, BX, CX, DX. Four of them. And they weren't actually general-purpose, the API required you to use them for certain things. 15:22 (Either to pass arguments to the API functions, or to get results back.) 15:23 Almost _every_ API function used AX and BX, and many of them (and some of the looping instructions and things) used CX. DX was somewhat more general-purpose, but you sometimes needed it specifically as well. 15:25 Mandevil: right, but elenmirie is playing 3.6.x 15:25 so saying more conducts than it has is silly 15:34 Agreed. 15:43 jonadab: I know that gold balance is one of the less-important issues, but what do you think about adding a very expensive service to silver weapons? 15:44 (Metal weapons, that is.) 15:44 YANI: other materials (ones that are not silver) also have some special properties (can't think of what they should be) that make them worth using over silver. 15:45 Well, iron versus elves is one. 15:45 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 15:45 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 15:45 But elves aren't a particularly important threat later on. 15:45 how about platinum? gold? copper? or the nondescript "metal" material? those are all rather similar to each other 15:47 none of them really have any lore behind them as to why they'd be good, hmmm 15:47 D&D generalizes the traditional elvish cold-iron sensitivity to any fey or powerful chaotic being. 15:47 In nethack that's 'n' and some '&' for sure. 15:47 D&D also completely misses the point of 'cold iron' by making it some sort of special magical metal. 15:48 It's just iron. That's the whole point. 15:51 In any case, I think it'd be interesting if you had to bring someone a ton of gold and a couple silver weapons for fodder to get your (non-artifact) weapon silvered 15:51 What if the iron is glowing red-hot? Is that still cold iron? 15:53 Then it deals extra damage for a very different reason. 15:54 My understanding is that 'cold-iron' is just a reference to the fact that metal tends to feel cool to the touch 15:55 (because it is a good conductor of heat, and because it is typically at room temperature, which is typically noticably colder than the temperature of your skin) 15:55 So no, I think red-hot iron wouldn't be cold iron ;) 15:57 So elves just need to ignite their steel plate mails before wearing them 15:57 What could possibly go wrong 15:58 Steel is hard to ignite. 15:58 Gold is typically associated with the sun, so you could perhaps draw on that as justification for it doing extra damage to some foes. 15:59 YANI: make Sunsword out of gold 15:59 include object properties -- weapons made out of gold gain the 'flaming' property 15:59 GruntHack has gold object. 15:59 Did that as soon as I had per-item materials ;) 15:59 -s 16:00 Er, Sunsword being made out of gold, I mean. 16:00 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Quit: *poof*] 16:00 Is iron one of the things you can get to explode by powdering it? 16:01 No. 16:16 -!- zombifier has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28 aosdict: Personally, I think silver weapons should be exceptionally rare outside Gehennom. 16:29 Well, the silver shop could be stuck in Gehennom. 16:29 aosdict: copper is known as a good conductor (of both electricity and heat). Gold and silver are actually better conductors, but almost nobody knows this. 16:30 Oh, good point, yani: they should give you extra shock damage from a passive shock attack 16:30 So maybe some shock-related feature for copper weapons? Not sure what it would be, but yeah. 16:31 you get zapped harder :P 16:31 Ah. 16:31 and why not do it for gold and silver too? 16:31 Mithril is corrosion-proof. Though in NetHack, so is silver, which is ... not the same as IRL. 16:32 Ah, actually, making silver weapons conduct extra shock damage to you would give them a downside. I kind of like that. 16:32 Well, not too much of a downside. It's basically just energy vortices. 16:32 And it wouldn't apply to thrown silver daggers or spears. 16:33 Or, realistically, silver spears used in melee. 16:33 I kind of want to make silver gradulaly corrode over tim eif not polished somehow, but that may be too much realism. 16:34 yeah, I think it's too much. Perhaps there can be gehennom monsters with passive corrosion attacks? 16:34 Add a R who corrodes stuff? 16:36 That doesn't differentiate silver from iron, thojugh. Probably better to leave silver fantastically non-erosive as at present. It's a fantasy world. NHINRL. 16:37 Unless you want to add a monster with aqua regia attacks that dissolve silver and gold. Aqua regia was known in the middle ages, I think. 16:37 Eh. 16:38 Yeah, not really compelling. 16:45 I think my problem with the other "gold = sun" stuff is it seems like it'd apply to most of the same things as silver does now 16:58 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:59 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 16:59 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 17:07 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse 17:09 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 17:12 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:16 -!- zombifier has joined #hardfought 17:16 Point re: strong overlap of gold==sun and silver 17:23 We ought to be able to dig up some interesting flavor for gold if we actually try. Nothing springs immediately to mind, but gold has been so valued by so many people for so long, there has to be something. 17:23 Hypothetically, one could go with a "money is the root of all evil" theme and make it effective vs holy monsters. 17:23 You throw a gold piece. The gold piece misses the dwarf. The dwarf excitedly turns and chases after the gold piece. 17:24 repeat ad infinitum 17:24 :) 17:24 However, I think the gold==sun/holy thing is much more grounded in myth. 17:24 I thought of another way to differentiate mithril: other metals can't damage or break it, because the mithril is stronger. So for example wearing mithril body armor s hould prevent bisection, and a mithril weapon should not be shattered by a weapon-shattering attack. This is pretty marginal, though. 17:25 Gold = sun means it should definitely be good versus undead, who for a large part are not silver haters. 17:25 Only vampires are silver-hating undead. 17:25 The _important_ undaead are silver haters. 17:25 liches aren't 17:25 The problem is, of course, that undead aren't much of a threat in the late game. 17:25 Oh, aren't they? I thought they were. Hmm. 17:26 or even the mid game 17:26 and liches tend to get genocided a lot 17:26 Well, liches are, but everyone genocides them. 17:26 Yeah. 17:27 Of course, we could buff some of the late-game undead. Make spectres, who are like wraiths only speed 18, spawn in groups. Etc. :-) 17:27 * aosdict doesn't have a problem with that 17:27 EPI: ^ 17:27 minotaur zombies 17:27 Ooouch. 17:28 yani: undead resurrect in Gehennom 17:28 but only there 17:29 Giant undead shoggoths. <-- EPI 17:29 Skeletal dragons. 17:34 Well, with the addition of derived undead a number of those things can turn up in dnethack, 17:35 but even in vanilla making something undead makes it *easier* to deal with than it's non-undead form, not harder. 17:36 True. 17:36 What if we go the other direction, then, and make minotaur liches? 17:37 Also, troll liches. 17:37 jonadab: silver is more conductive, gold isn't, at least for electricity, not sure about heat 17:38 oh6: You sure? Why is gold used for expansion card contacts then? 17:38 Despite the cost? 17:38 Oh, nvm, I know why. 17:38 corrosion resistance yeah 17:38 Less corrodable. 17:39 'L' is typically blessed-genocided, I think usually before anything else, 17:39 and aluminum is more conductive by weight, but has ... problems 17:39 so unless they were genocide resistant, it wouldn't matter. 17:40 In which case, probably better to just make arch-liches genocide resistant instead. 17:40 Chris_ANG: FIQ already wants to make arch-liches non-genocideable. 17:40 Also deep ettins. 17:40 I tell other players this, and they are like, "FIQ is evil." 17:41 but 17:41 I feel like there should be one high-level ungenocideable monster for each alignment 17:41 to deter genocide equally 17:41 Yes, I know, you have reasons. 17:41 over-genocide that is 17:41 and I felt that archon is a good choice for lawfuls 17:41 arch-liches for chaotics 17:41 neutrals is harder, but 4k has deep ettins 17:41 Doesn't stop people from going "Nooooooouuu." though. 17:42 which isn't as highlevel, but hits hard *and* is capable of casting summonstorm 17:42 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:42 Yes, if your goal is to have dangerous things in all three alignments, it's a reasonable choice. From that perspective. 17:45 You can also just add high-level angels of every alignment <.< 17:46 FIQ: And shouldn't your idea also include something moloch-aligned? Just to round it out fully? 17:46 Also, doesn't vanilla archon deter overgenocide by chaotics and neutrals? 17:47 Everything unaligned is already ungenocideable 17:47 Chris_ANG: And what about lawfuls? 17:47 rebooting server for patch update 17:47 brb 17:47 -!- K2 has quit [Quit: Rico, smoke! *poof*] 17:47 I want to deter it equally so I figured one monster per alignment 17:47 So the only thing that's needed is something to deter overgenocide by lawfuls, which could be either netural or chaotic. 17:47 Also makes sense that the hardest *general-purpose* monsters can't be genocided 17:47 point 17:48 Do you count archons as general purpose?