04:30 -!- Manaflare has joined #hardfought 04:33 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 04:33 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 04:33 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:36 -!- theRaisse is now known as raisse 04:37 -!- raisse has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:37 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 04:37 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 04:38 [4k] k2 (Sam Hum Mal Law), 711 points, T:673, killed by a goblin 04:41 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:45 what 04:46 https://puu.sh/x9FxW/438286ab89.png 04:46 damn troll messages 04:46 sometimes they get me 04:50 [4k] k2 (Sam Hum Mal Law), 4746 points, T:1958, killed by a gnome king 04:52 EPI: wielding two weapons at once increases the rate at which monsters with curse-items attacks generate. 04:52 EPI: wielding a two-handed weapon increases it even more, and makes curse-items attacks more effective. 04:53 EPI: speed boots and fumble boots are now actually the same item, because extrinsic speed automatically causes fumbling, always. 04:53 EPI: intrinsic speed also causes fumbling. 05:03 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 05:03 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 05:08 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:13 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 05:13 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 06:09 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 06:27 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 17204 points, T:10318, killed by a yeti 07:17 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 07:17 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 07:19 -!- Manaflare has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:39 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:44 -!- theRaisse has joined #hardfought 07:44 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v theRaisse] by ChanServ 07:50 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 08:08 -!- hf_guest_41420 has joined #hardfought 08:12 -!- hf_guest_41420 has quit [Client Quit] 08:16 -!- hf_guest_55183 has joined #hardfought 08:48 Mandevil: mace and club both use the same general fighting style, but the weight balance is different. 08:49 Clubs have a more evenly distributed weight. Maces and morningstars are a light stick with a very heavy weight on the end. 08:49 Not sure if that should differentiate them _completely_ as skills, though. 08:51 Hmm, I think I'm going to merge flail and club into "Blunt weapons" at Skilled in my skill proposal though, with the only differentiation into mace/club/flail being at Expert. 08:58 If flail is the same skill as mace, then morning star probably is too (unless it's the _other_ kind of morning star, but if it were THAT, it'd use polearm skill probably). 08:59 TROPHY GET! 08:59 Yes, morningstar does not warrant being a separate skill from mace. 08:59 But flails/nunchaku fight a bit differently. 09:00 A morning star is either a spiked flail, or a spikeball on a long pole. Depending on who you ask. 09:00 (I'm thinking of this in context of Nero's skill tree idea) 09:01 I thought morningstar was a spikeball on a short pole, basically a spiky mace. 09:02 aosdict: That is somewhere in between, so I guess that makes sense to be in the range too. 09:03 This is the type people who don't know anything about medieval weapons usually think of: http://www.swords24.eu/images/products/en/Morning_Star_Flail_XH2142.jpg 09:04 aosdict: I think NetHack is a game, not a simulator -- therefore not every little difference needs to be implemented in it. 09:04 What's holding me up on the skill proposal is what the heck to do with spells. Not sure if I should propose that they be handled with the skill tree or just kept completely distinct, or whether I should adapt some of dtsund's proposed spell reorganization. 09:05 YASI: every spell has its own skill that must be trained up individually, like in Elona, with the difference that unlike Elona the player's amount of skill points is limited. 09:05 Mandevil: True enough, I can see the case for flail/mace/morningstar being merged for gameplay reasons alone. 09:06 After all, we don't have separate "polearm" and "poleaxe" skills 09:06 EPI: when you #enhance your skill with a weapon, it's _that specific weapon_, not all weapons of that type. So for example if you enhance your skill with your starting long sword, and then later switch to Frost Brand, you are back at unskilled. 09:06 jonadab: haha, nice one :) 09:06 But club should stay separate, I think. 09:07 The main reason to keep club separate would be if you want some roles to be better with club than with mace,etc., or vice versa. 09:07 Yes, in particular Caveman. 09:07 Or if there's a role that starts with a club and you want them to have to decide whether to invest skill points in it. 09:07 Which, yes, Caveman is the obvious here. 09:08 But of course, club and the other blunt weapons train together as far as Skilled in this proposal... 09:08 Note that _in vanilla_, Caveman's quest artifact is a mace. (Fourk changes this...) 09:10 Perhaps flails should remain separate but be buffed numerically to compensate for the fact that they have no good artifacts. 09:11 (also yani: there should be a decent blunt artifact weapon you can get through normal sacrifice) 09:11 Flail should probably do more damage than mace, because you get more momentum due to the increased leverage the chain gives you. They're harder to control, though. If the skills are merged, that's hard to model. 09:12 aosdict: decent, perhaps, but nothing as OP as the Bat from Hell. 09:12 the bat from hell is a slash'em artifact, a +20 flat bonus is expected there 09:13 Yes; which would be OP in NetHack. 09:13 Yeah, I think I'm remaining on the side of not merging flail with the other blunt weapons. 09:13 At least, not completely merging it. 09:14 I'll probably merge flail with mace mainly because I can't think of a role that should have skill in the one and not the other. 09:14 And if I merge flail with mace, I'll merge morning star with them as well. 09:14 Club is an open question, because Caveman. 09:16 My answer to the katana problem, incidentally, is to put them in the tree as swords -> heavy swords -> katana, where long sword is swords -> heavy swords -> long sword. 09:16 This means that anyone who can get to Expert in either one can effectively get to Skilled in the other, but I think that's fine 09:20 I'm thinking of limiting Samurai to basic in Western longswords (and thus Excalibur). 09:21 Leaning towards the Spork route of letting only knights dip for it, myself. Perhaps lawful characters can still sacrifice for it, though. 09:23 And yes, one drawback of the skill tree is that if you let a role get to Expert in something, it necessarily makes them able to get to Basic and Skilled in other weapons on that branch of the tree. 09:32 aosdict: What if the tree went swords -> single-edged -> wakizashi, swords -> single-edged-> katana, swords -> single-edged -> tsurugi, swords -> single-edged -> scimitar ; swords -> double-edged -> short sword, swords -> double-edged -> broadsword, swords -> double-edged -> longsword ? 09:32 (Saber could potentially be up a third branch with rapier and foil.) 09:45 Well, sabers are a single-edged sword, so it seems a bit odd to put them in a category that's not single-edged 09:47 Your "single-edged" category is basically non-Western single-edged swords, which while it might be appropriate is too lengthy. 09:48 The current early draft of the proposal is here: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Phol_ende_wodan/Skill_balance_proposal 09:53 Hmm. 09:53 What about "Eastern swords"? 09:56 The reason I grouped scimitar and saber is because nobody uses scimitars; sticking them in with the samurai weapons doesn't help much 09:56 Maybe scimitar and saber should be fully merged, come to think of it. 09:57 Even so, that still doesn't incentivize using them for anyone not trying to train sabers. 09:58 Yeah, I'm not sure what to do about scimitars. I kind of want to make them something someone might ever use. 09:58 But I'm not sure how to do that. 09:59 Other than creating an artifact one that's in the same quality class as Excalibur and Grayswandir, but eeeeh. 09:59 A damage buff is one idea. 09:59 You start doing that, you have to think through a lot of balance issues clearly. 10:00 Scimitar is equivalent to saber against non-silver-haters currently, 1d8 to small and large. 10:02 Maybe make it 1d10 or 2d6? 10:06 Hmm. Long sword is 1d8/1d12; standard broadsword is 2d4/1d6+1, elven broadsword is 1d6+1d4/1d6+1. 10:07 Assuming we don't want to alter longsword, hmm. Making scimitar 1d10/1d10 would make it better against small enemies, not as good as long sword (but still decent) against large. 10:07 2d6/2d6 would make it strictly better than long sword, which is probably not desirable. 10:08 Broadsword is another one that could probably use a buff, because nobody ever uses them. Perhaps 2d4/2d5 or so? 10:09 Frankly, what's the diff between broadsword and long sword? 10:09 (I _think_ 2d5 is slightly lower average damage than 1d12, but I'd have to do the arithmetic to be certain. It has a lower standard deviation, for sure.) 10:09 jonadab: give giants triple carrycap 10:10 Mandevil: it has a basket hilt rather than a crossguard, technically. 10:10 As far as gameplay differences go... 10:10 Mandevil: Given that we know we're talking about a one-handed long sword, the broadsword is probably a little shorter and likely also heavier? 10:10 FIQ: Triple, not just double? 10:10 jonadab: I always thought long swords in nethack were the standard hand-and-a-half swords 10:11 aosdict: Well, they're not claymores; that's what "two-handed sword" is, I believe. 10:11 Right. 10:11 Most of all, is the different significant enough to not be in longs swords? 10:12 !zap 10:12 hmm, nethack only 10:12 Broadswords also don't necessarily have one or two edges. They came in both styles. 10:12 YASI: rename two-handed-sword to Claymore. Allow it to be applied to an empty floor tile to create a land mine. 10:12 I was actually thinking of renaming it to "greatsword" 10:12 Mandevil: Probably not, for gameplay purposes, honestly. 10:12 It's kind of tempting to merge the skill. 10:13 aosdict: Actually, if you rename the two-handed sword, you have to rename the skill too, or else special-case it in the skill code in several places. 10:13 2d4/2d5 makes them strictly better than long swords against small enemies and worse against large (but more reliable) 10:13 Wikipedia redirects broadswords to basket-hilted swords. 10:13 So they are probably smalle than long swords. 10:13 Since they are stricly one-handed. 10:14 Broadswords _ought_ to do less damage and buff your defense slightly, but implementing defense for weapons is just silly. 10:14 The term "broadsword" is normally used for a heavy one-handed sword that requires little skill to learn how to use, it's basically a cross between a sword and a cudgel, you just whack things with it. 10:14 +jonadab │ The searching... that's kind of big. 10:15 searching isn't that good outside fh IMO 10:15 aosdict: With Ev split from Arm, you _could_ do something similar to what Slash'EM does with armor blocking an attack, only change the wording to parry. 10:15 FIQ: Searching is very significant in the early game, when you are afraid of traps. 10:15 Later, it becomes mostly unimportant. 10:15 +Mandevil │ I think all of them. 10:15 Yeah but I don't want to implement that for weapons. 10:15 Tsurugi doesn't 10:16 +Mandevil │ K2: I think also FIQ? 10:16 several variants (including fiqhack) grants free action if wearing orange dragon scale mail 10:16 Several? 10:16 FIQ and? 10:17 fourk in the next version? 10:17 I'm sure dNetHack has this too. 10:17 aosdict: In .5 I believe, yes. 10:18 jonadab: in the current state of the combat system overhaul, wearing armor that isn't a shield is strictly bad for blocking attacks. It can only increase your chance of getting hit. 10:19 aosdict: Yes, that makes sense; but it can absorb damage. 10:19 LarienTelrunya: ADOM has that, kind of @ spell "skill" 10:19 So that's a trade-off. 10:19 (And you balance it so it's a net win in many cases.) 10:19 jonadab: double perhaps yeah 10:20 Mandevil: fiqhack, dnethack, 4k .5 10:21 and I think some other variant, unsure 10:21 FIQ: Double what? 10:21 Oh, giant carry cap? 10:22 jonadab: right, shields don't help absorb damage, only other armor can 10:22 yes 10:22 Mandevil: ah, spork gives blue DSM speed, but doesn't give orange DSM free action 10:22 maybe I confused the 2 10:22 and your armor skill helps cut the penalties from heavy armor 10:23 blue DSM grants speed in fiqhack, dnethack and sporkhack, I think 4k .5 gave it something else 10:23 Mandevil: so if broadsword shouldn't be a distinct skill, should it be merged with short sword, do you think? 10:23 jonadab: sporkhack gives yellow DSM stun and confusion resistance, if you'd rather not give stone res 10:23 aosdict: No, long sword. 10:24 I think it's shorter than a long sword though 10:24 and can't really be used two-handed if you want to, like a long sword 10:24 FIQ: No, I like the petrification res, it's very thematic (acidic creatures are naturally resistant). 10:24 ok 10:24 I recall someone disliking it, I guess it wasn't you then 10:25 (not that you can two-hand long swords in nethack) 10:26 FIQ: ah, that's probably where elona stole it from, then 10:27 after all, elona is a non-sucky ADOM :D 10:27 lol 10:34 jonadab: Actually, having wakizashi as its own skill doesn't make that much sense 10:34 since it's not its own weapon 10:36 You'd have to make it its own weapon. Not sure if that is a good idea or not. 10:36 Means that only Samurai would use it, and Samurai have better options anyway. 10:36 True. 10:37 Maybe just letting Samurai use Western short swords if they want isn't really that bad. 10:37 Particularly given that nobody uses short swords as it stands. 10:37 Wakizashi is in the game entirely for thematic reasons. 10:37 It makes little sense apart from that. 10:37 That's a reason I think broadswords might benefit from being merged into short sword, it'd be an upgrade for rogues 10:39 Rogues are supposed to throw daggers though. 10:40 Rogues should have multiple fighting style options like anyone else 10:41 It's not like it's a _big_ upgrade. 10:43 But I think (short) sword + shield should be a valid option for Rogues 10:44 though daggerstorming will, of course, have more raw attack power 10:59 [fh] Arnold (Ether) (Pri Hum Fem Cha), 14654 points, T:686, killed by a giant rat 11:02 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a werejackal, on T:4809 11:06 -!- hf_guest_55183 has quit [Quit: *poof*] 11:06 -!- hf_guest_55183 has joined #hardfought 11:07 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has joined #hardfought 11:10 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11 -!- hf_guest_55183 has quit [Client Quit] 11:17 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 10123 points, T:6446, killed by a lizard 11:26 -!- zombifier has joined #hardfought 11:34 aosdict: have you seen this btw 11:34 https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Tungtn/Physical_damage_analysis 11:35 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought 11:42 @v?Yeenoghu 11:42 Yeenoghu (&) | Lvl: 56 | Diff: 31 | Spd: 18 | Res: fire poison magic drain | Confers: nothing | MR: 80 | Generates: unique | AC: -5 | Attacks: 3d6 weapon physical, 2d8 weapon confuse, 1d6 claw paralyze, 2d6 cast magic missile | Alignment: -15 | Flags: flies, seeinvis, poisonous, nopoly, demon, stalker, covetous, infravisible 11:45 FIQ: Hmm, we should probably add that to Category:Design. 11:46 It's as much analysis as proposal, but the analysis is very design-relevant. 11:47 * jonadab will go ahead and do that. 11:47 fun fact: Grayswandir does more damage to demons than demonbane do, at any enchantment 11:47 Yes, Demonbane is ridiculous. 11:48 *Werebane* is better against demons than Demonbane is, I think. 11:53 [slex] dolores (Nec Dev Fem Cha) killed the camperstriker of dolores, the former Wallhack Exploiter, on T:2357 12:00 -!- theRaisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:13 -!- hf_guest_88527 has joined #hardfought 12:13 -!- hf_guest_88527 is now known as jonathanhanes 12:13 !ping 12:13 jonathanhanes: Pong! 12:14 !potm 12:14 !pom 12:14 jonathanhanes: The moon is at last quarter; new moon in 7 days. 12:19 !whois 12:19 !who 12:19 jonathanhanes: dolores [slex] elenmirie [nd] 12:26 FIQ: one idea I had to make orctown less severe was to have a functioning general store in it, barricaded by boulders 12:28 are you lurking discord 12:29 yes, through RLdiscord 12:29 yeah I figured since orctown was brought up there 12:29 it might have been me 12:30 aosdict: did you see 12:30 [6:16 PM] FIQ: @greqrg what do you think of orctown? 12:30 [6:16 PM] FIQ: I've considered adding it in fiqhack, but compensating by guranteeing a special, non-dangerous, minesend 12:30 also, have not seen the tungtn document, will give it a read 12:30 [6:17 PM] FIQ: with survivors, new temple, shops, etc 12:30 ok 12:30 I'm not sure how you would guarantee it if orctown happens, but sure, sounds like a good idea 12:31 aosdict: let's not bring up the technical issues, if it is a good idea then I want to do it 12:31 IMO at least 12:31 sure 12:32 but if I had a good idea that required rewriting all the dungeon structure code, I'd hesitate 12:32 haha 12:32 tbh I'm mostly just waiting for ais so I can ask him about how to best do it in terms of the NH4 RNG mechanics 12:32 (not saying this will require that. but something like jonadab's proposal would, probably) 12:32 heh 12:34 this may not apply to you because of nh4, but how do you deal with supporting different windowports and older systems when you're writing new code? 12:34 do you say something like, "hmm this should really be a register int for compatibility with SunOS"? 12:34 I don't code for NH3 so I can't answer for it 12:35 using "register" is just premature optimization 12:35 that's the first thing the compiler throws out if you enable any optimization flags 12:35 register tells the compiler that the var is going to be used often 12:35 okay, bad example 12:35 the compiler can find out that itself. even in C 12:35 it was useful back when compilers were terrible 12:35 not really useful nowdays 12:35 it was even not useful 20 years ago 12:36 ah, wasn't sure on how useful it was back then 12:36 I would even claim it was never really useful outside of a PDP-7. 12:36 bhaak: remember though, NH3 is designed to work with pre-ANSI C 12:38 if you have an AST, it's really simple to find out what's being used often and every compiler needs to do that anyway. 12:40 aosdict: but going back to your original question. you try some best practises and if it breaks, you got users on the target platforms that can send in patches. there is no better way of ensuring it runs on a specific platform than actually letting it run there :) 12:41 aosdict: although, it can have ugly consequences. look what they did to poor objects.c with SPLITMON 12:42 you mean monst.c? 12:43 s/objects.c/monst.c 12:52 concerning the previous orctown discussion: i must be the ONLY person in all of nethack history to not detest orctown, because you're guaranteed a coaligned altar 12:54 bhaak: The register keyword was useful on some platforms, but never on x86, because keeping a variable in a register wasn't actually practical on 8086 (there weren't enough registers to go around), and by the time the 386 became common, compilers were better. 12:56 bhaak: My policy on legacy platforms is that the ones anyone cares about have ANSI C compilers available now, even if they historically didn't. 12:56 Err, aosdict ^ 12:56 is there any effort to ANSI-fy the nh3 code? 12:57 aosdict: Last I heard, some members of the vanilla dev team are actively opposed to this. I don't know how many of them. 12:58 Hmm, it would be interesting to hear on what grounds 12:58 aosdict: there is a PR on github that ANSI-fied the codebase 12:58 understandable. some of them has an atm machine and wants to make sure nethack can run on that 12:58 it wasn't merged 12:59 unlike most PRs that are simply just ignored, there was some actual talk in it 12:59 but then it went private and shut off to public 12:59 and nothing happened 12:59 let's see if I can find it 12:59 oh, the MaddTheSane one 13:00 https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/pull/10 13:00 yeah 13:01 oh I was wrong 13:01 while there was talk in it 13:01 not a single DT member participated in the discussion... 13:02 I feel that this comment in particular is notable: https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/49woe1/nethack_to_ansi/d0xip6h/?st=j6cepyz0&sh=cb30a454 13:03 I've actually worked on NH3 code, but only on the curses code 13:03 because it's actually in ANSI :P 13:05 who's that comment by about "nethack makes it a point of pride to support such old compilers"? 13:05 I see it as "ghost", not sure if that's a github user or some anonymous github thing 13:06 I think it's an actual github user 13:06 no idea who it is 13:06 * aosdict laments not having an actual browser 13:07 if anything, the point of pride should be supporting old *platforms*, not compilers 13:08 and as jonadab said, most platforms if not all can probably be compiled to with more modern compilers 13:08 ok I looked 13:08 Deleted user 13:08 ghost 13:08 so it is actually a deleted user 13:08 so yeah 13:26 -!- Menche has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35 [slex] dolores (Nec Dev Fem Cha), 31212 points, T:7264, killed by an acidic corpse 13:40 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has joined #hardfought 13:42 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:44 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:44 -!- jonathanhanes has joined #hardfought 14:17 !players 14:17 K2: dolores [slex] elenmirie [nd] 14:18 !players 14:18 K2: elenmirie [nd] 14:20 hi K2! 14:21 hi elenmirie!! 14:21 hows it? 14:21 full of conduct monks that don't make it... :/ 14:22 ugh 14:23 maybe some junk artifact should give stunning resistance when wielded - it'd go from almost useless to uber-OP in the end game 14:24 a sane person would give up I suppose... 14:25 no keep at it 14:25 you'll get it eventually 14:25 [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 18 points, T:78, killed by a sewer rat, while moving through the air 14:25 there are players with 14 and 15 conduct games. crazy 14:26 8-10 is a good goal 14:27 oh6: Someone was just discussing giving Snickersnee stun res. Might've been FIQ, not sure. It should be there in backscroll somewhere. 14:27 k 14:28 it was Mandevil 14:28 what did you decide to do in fourk, jonadab? I saw some of the discussion earlier. To Snickersnee, I mean 14:28 K2: 14-conduct games? that's pretty good, considering the max is 12 14:28 look on Mandevil's scoreboard 14:29 elenmirie: I haven't made a final decision on that yet. It's for 4.3.0.5 in any case, and I'm trying to finish up 4.3.0.4 first, hopefully in the next month or so. 14:29 those are in dynahack... looks like it tracks more conducts 14:29 I see jonadab 14:30 Fourk tracks _way_ more than 14 conducts. 14:31 [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 320 points, T:987, killed by a wand 14:32 FIQ: Even FIQhack may track more than 12. 14:35 Let's see, in 4.3.0.4, Fourk tracks: food, vegan, vegetarian, gnostic, weaphit, killer, illiterate, polypile, polyself, wish, artiwish, genocide, elbereth, puddingsplit, lostalign, sokoban_guilt, clothing, jewelry, unihorns, containers, tools, fountains, sinks, potions, conflict, invisility, displacement, reflection. 14:36 I should announce some kind of contest to see who can ascend with the most number of those intact. 14:36 With a booby prize for breaking them all. 14:36 The great K2, master of evil variant Grunthack, has just updated the server and SLEX 2.0.2 is now playable! Woohoo!!! Happy playing all! 14:37 Hmm, maybe for breaking them all at a lower turncount than anyone else :-) 14:38 what's gnostic? 14:38 atheist, I think 14:38 heh 14:39 because they're represented as increasing numbers 14:39 Yes, that's the game's internal name for atheist conduct. 14:39 weaphit is weaponless; killer is pacifist. 14:39 lostalign... is that never changing alignment? 14:39 or never losing alignment? 14:40 Never losing alignment record points. 14:40 that would be hard