04:24 -!- mode/Beholder [+Zi] by Beholder
04:24 -!- cherryh.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ SporkHack updated to 0.6.5, includes dungeon overview patch. GruntHack to receive the same patch soon. dNetHack 3.15.1 is now live
04:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ
04:25 <K2> !ping
04:25 <Beholder> K2: Pong! 
04:28 -!- firemonkey has joined #hardfought
04:29 <loli> !ping
04:29 <Beholder> loli: Pong! 
04:29 <loli> Pong!
04:29 <loli> lame
04:31 <K2> awww
04:55 -!- Tomthetom has joined #hardfought
04:56 <Tangles> Pong!
04:56 <Beholder> Tangles: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-08-10 01:53 EDT: the curses interface in slex seems still very crashy, it randomly gives segfaults with this backtrace: Program terminated with signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. #0  xname2 (obj=0x19f4ee0) at objnam.c:4980 4980            register int nn = ocl->oc_name_known; - and the real bad thing is that the savegame corrupts upon trying to autorecover it; apparently it's the old objnam error again, where the game someh
04:56 <Tangles> Yes Beholder I know.
04:57 <Tangles> K2: Any chance you could sprunge a full backtrace of that one?
04:57 <K2> sure
04:58 <Tangles> Thanks :)
04:58 * K2 walks over to our dev channel
04:59 <Tangles> heh
04:59 <Tangles> Also, why are you still awake?
05:05 <K2> well
05:05 <K2> i would normally be at work
05:05 <K2> so i am still in that mode
05:05 <K2> i will prob sleep here soon
05:16 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cam Ang Fem Cha), 3525 points, T:3828, killed by an arrow
05:18 <K2> LarienTelrunya
05:18 <LarienTelrunya> yes?
05:18 <K2> https://pastebin.com/EBTZSD7w - backtrace of core dump
05:18 <K2> *this* is what you need
05:18 <K2> Tangles says this is not curses related at all
05:19 <LarienTelrunya> okay, so apparently it's an issue with timed objects
05:19 <Tangles> Yeah
05:19 <loli> I can go back to curses safely then?
05:20 <LarienTelrunya> not sure
05:20 <Tangles> I vaguely recall a few weeks back there was some issue with one of the variants with egg timers.
05:20 <LarienTelrunya> I can't really tell; this might be the old (dreaded) obj_is_local bug
05:21 <Tangles> It looks like it's happening during a level transition (going upstairs maybe?)
05:21 <loli> only the first time
05:21 <loli> the second time
05:21 <loli> I was just walking around
05:21 <loli> and seg fault
05:22 <Tangles> hmm... that could also be a timer thing though.
05:22 <LarienTelrunya> #3  0x0000000000afcc85 in obj_is_local (obj=<optimized out>) at timeout.c:7388
05:22 <LarienTelrunya> "optimized out"? does that mean it was undefined?
05:22 <loli> no
05:22 <loli> that's not the same
05:23 <Tangles> LarienTelrunya: no, it means the compiler optimised that value out.
05:23 <loli> ^
05:23 <Tangles> Usuallly when tracing a running process, you can step through and eventually get a sane value.
05:23 <Tangles> but it's a bit harder with a coredump.
05:24 <LarienTelrunya> ah.
05:24 <LarienTelrunya> well but it crashed at register int nn = ocl->oc_name_known
05:24 <LarienTelrunya> if obj were indeed undefined, cxname would most probably have crashed, or maybe even obj_is_local
05:25 <LarienTelrunya> and the curses interface used to have a ocl->oc_name_known crash before
05:25 <LarienTelrunya> let me get the commit that "fixed" it
05:27 <LarienTelrunya> wtf I can't find it
05:29 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Con Lol Fem Cha), 233 points, T:675, killed by a monster (giant mimic)
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05:33 <LarienTelrunya> Tangles: this https://github.com/SLASHEM-Extended/SLASHEM-Extended/commit/3a447584b4693399f91b96b73a01671f4ebdaf70 - I guess that is what's causing the crash
05:35 <Tangles> looking...
05:35 <LarienTelrunya> the problem there is that the dn = "???" is needed for curses, since it calls xname2 at weird times, but simply doing it unconditionally causes items to display ??? as their name, which is certainly not intended
05:36 <LarienTelrunya> if there was a simple check to see whether the curses interface is on, this would be easier
05:37 <LarienTelrunya> then we could make it say if (!dn && cursesinterface) dn = "???";
05:37 <LarienTelrunya> and everything would be fine
05:37 <LarienTelrunya> but there is no such "cursesinterface" variable, or is there?
05:37 <loli> if there was a simple check, you could fix the character select sheet really easily
05:38 <Tangles> LarienTelrunya: what do you mean "at weird times?"
05:39 <LarienTelrunya> well, e.g. when loading the game, which is where it used to crash at the same line
05:39 <LarienTelrunya> weird because the tty interface does not do that
05:39 <Tangles> Yeah ok, so this is probably to do with the inventory display.
05:39 <LarienTelrunya> why is curses calling xname2 so often? :D (because of the permanent inventory?)
05:39 -!- K2-irccloud has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
05:39 <Tangles> Yes probably.
05:40 <LarienTelrunya> removing the if (!dn && restoring) dn = "???"; line entirely causes the game to crash on loading a savegame with curses, but with tty it's stable
05:41 <LarienTelrunya> but removing the restoring clause causes mirrors, daggers and certain other items to actually show ??? in-game
05:41 <Tangles> Yeah... so that particular issue is probably to do with equiping armor and weapons when restoring the game.
05:41 <Tangles> We ran into something similar with dnethack.
05:41 <Tangles> Let me dig out the commit that fixed that.
05:45 <Tangles> https://github.com/NHTangles/dNAO/commit/0d806f2eb5d823214bd07e6803bebb199b5a7277
05:46 <Tangles> Just the parts in wield.c and worn.c
05:46 <LarienTelrunya> ah, also with the restoring check
05:47 <Tangles> Essentially anywhere you call update_inventory() from the mainline code that might happen during the restoring process...
05:47 <LarienTelrunya> ok
05:48 <LarienTelrunya> but apparently in curses-slex, it can also happen upon changing levels or doing other things that cause the game to save, and then "restoring" would be FALSE
05:48 <Tangles> ah ok
05:49 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Con Lol Fem Cha), 1019 points, T:806, drowned in a pool of water by a giant eel
05:50 <Tangles> so what things do you do in slex that cause a save?
05:50 <LarienTelrunya> changing levels will cause the game to save, and the game also autosaves every once in a while
05:50 <LarienTelrunya> I can check loli's crashed game to see whether it happened on a turn that a save would occur on
05:52 <LarienTelrunya> hmm, does not look like it
05:53 <Tangles> I think the loli crash (at least the one K2 posted the trace for) is unrelated to the "???" change since the point of the crash is before that anyway.
05:54 <LarienTelrunya> well the one from the backtrace happened when changing levels via stair
05:54 <Tangles> and the "restoring" one that you tried to work around with the "????" is a separate issue.
05:55 <LarienTelrunya> oh, right, it happened in obj_typename()
05:56 <Tangles> I would start by reverting the "???" change, and maybe catch the restoring flag in update_inventory(), by starting it with if (restoring) return;
05:57 <Tangles> see if that's stable with perm_invent, then start looking for the other problem.
05:57 <LarienTelrunya> oh wait it was in xname2()
05:57 <LarienTelrunya> the  nn = ocl->oc_name_known line is in both functions
05:57 <LarienTelrunya> so register struct objclass *ocl = &objects[typ]; must have returned a bogus ocl
05:57 <Tangles> oh right... maybe I'm wrong. I closed the tab.
05:58 <LarienTelrunya> this might actually be related to the weird hallucination crash I got a few times
05:59 <LarienTelrunya> loli: when you got that crash, was your char hallucinating?
05:59 <loli> no
05:59 <loli> I don't believe so
05:59 <loli> I could be remembering wrong
06:00 <LarienTelrunya> anyway what I probably really ought to do, is to add a safety check to xname2() that tries to make sure obj, obj->otyp and all those other parameters actually exist instead of blindly assuming that they do, and probably give a message if not
06:07 <Tangles> Yeah a message might be good. Maybe even an impossible(), with some info that might help track it down.
06:08 <LarienTelrunya> noted :)
06:08 <Tangles> Anyway I'm heading out again for a while. Good luck! ;)
06:08 <LarienTelrunya> see you!
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06:31 <Tomthetom> I cant seem to delete a save
06:31 <Tomthetom> its in "replay mode"
06:31 <loli> move the save file?
06:32 <Tomthetom> How ?
06:33 <LarienTelrunya> probably only a server admin can do that
06:34 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Tra Lol Mal Cha), 9474 points, T:1480, killed by a kick in the nuts
06:35 <loli> !lastgame
06:35 <Beholder> loli: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/d/dolores/slex/dumplog/1502358859.slex.txt
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06:37 <Tomthetom00> My internet keeps crashing tonight wtf
06:38 -!- Tomthetom has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:51 <Beholder> [fh] Cpt Volaille (Tomthetom) (Sam Hum Mal Law) killed the ghost of Fisting Hard, the former Novice, on T:693
06:53 <Beholder> [fh] Cpt Volaille (Tomthetom) (Sam Hum Mal Law), 30759 points, T:775, killed by a blue jelly
06:54 <LarienTelrunya> FIQ: evil patch idea: new monster, castalia. Singular form of castalias. Will cast arcane and clerical spells every turn without cooldown.
06:54 <Tomthetom00> yasd
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07:35 <Beholder> [fh] Cpt Volaille (Tomthetom) (Sam Hum Mal Law), 39182 points, T:2783, killed by a Woodland-elf
07:58 <Beholder> [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 3629 points, T:9379, killed by a fire ant
08:05 <Beholder> [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 503 points, T:1320, killed by a homunculus, while reading a book
08:07 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed]
08:10 <Beholder> [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 100 points, T:900, killed by a wand
08:46 <Beholder> [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Cha), 729 points, T:1046, killed by a giant bat
09:00 <Beholder> [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 9813 points, T:4609, killed by a shattered potion
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10:07 <FIQ> !tell LarienTelrunya castalias is a bit awkward to use, but it's "hidden" behind keymap config so it's OK
10:07 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
10:38 <Beholder> [fh] Hiroshima (Tomthetom) (Sam Hum Mal Law), 34196 points, T:1882, killed by a gnomish wizard's force bolt
10:43 <Beholder> [fh] Linda (Tomthetom) (Val Dwa Fem Law), 21484 points, T:930, killed by a giant bat
10:52 <bug_sniper> EPI: Monsters spawnin on top of other monsters if there's nowhere for them to spawn. When there's a monster on top of something, it drops down to fight you when you kill what it's standing on.
10:53 <bug_sniper> Nice patch idea: letting the player fly over most monsters
11:00 <Beholder> [nd] Tangles (Sam Hum Fem Law), 3257 points, T:2752, killed by a leocrotta
11:02 <Beholder> [un] Tangles (Con Orc Fem Cha), 188 points, T:258, killed by a fox
11:03 <Beholder> [un] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha), 38 points, T:89, killed by a fox
11:04 <Tangles> !setmintc 500
11:04 <Beholder> Tangles: Min reported turncount for tangles set to 500
11:05 <Tomthetom> Ive been running after quantum mecanic for 5 levels lol
11:05 <Tomthetom> He keeps using wand of digging and going down D:
11:10 <Beholder> [fh] Tom (Tomthetom) (Mon Hum Mal Cha), 43253 points, T:5539, killed by a vampire lord
11:10 <Tomthetom> Damn it
11:11 <jonadab> Tomthetom: Yes, when an item-using monster escapes with a wand of digging, the strategically correct response is usually to let it go for now.
11:11 <Beholder> [un] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha), 264 points, T:887, killed by a jackal
11:12 <Tomthetom> !setmintc 1500
11:12 <Beholder> Tomthetom: Min reported turncount for tomthetom set to 1500
11:12 <Tomthetom> jonadab, Agreed
11:19 * Tomthetom is away: Im away, dont talk to me :D
11:19 <aosdict> isn't there an /away command for this purpose, not that it ever gets used
11:21 <aosdict> or you could change nick to Tomthetom|away or something, some people like that
11:24 <Beholder> [un] Tangles (Con Orc Mal Cha), 202 points, T:553, killed by a magic missile
11:25 <Tangles> !setmintc 1500
11:25 <Beholder> Tangles: Min reported turncount for tangles set to 1500
11:25 <jonadab> aosdict: Or use something like screen_away to automatically mark you away any time you detach from your screen session :-)
11:26 -!- Tomthetom has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
11:30 <aosdict> Huh. I should look into that for tmux
11:34 <FIQ> !tell Tomthetom please remove these, they're very obnoxious: * Tomthetom is away: Im away, dont talk to me :D
11:34 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
11:38 <jonadab> aosdict: It almost certainly exists; tmux is if anything _more_ popular than screen these days.
11:38 <jonadab> Probably because it's easier to search for.
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11:40 <Beholder> [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 1247 points, T:1954, killed by a rothe
11:43 <FIQ> jonadab: it also has features screen lacks that people has been asking for since forever
11:43 <FIQ> and a much more straightforward configuration system
11:43 <FIQ> that doesn't look like line noise
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11:54 <NeroOneTrueKing> l - a blessed +1 thirsty long sword of stealth
11:54 <NeroOneTrueKing> Yay!
12:00 <bug_sniper> what does the thirsty prefix mean?
12:00 <NeroOneTrueKing> drains levels when it hits things, I believe
12:01 <bug_sniper> yani dipping a thirsty sword into water should give you a satisfied sword
12:17 <jonadab> YASI: hitting things with a satisfied sword makes them not hungry.
12:17 <jonadab> Or doesn't do any damage.
12:17 <jonadab> Or both.
12:18 <aosdict> jonadab: I've found tmux away irssi scripts, yeah, though seeing as how /away only affects private messages it might not be that useful
12:18 <aosdict> Unless I wanted to change my nick to aosdict|away, but I don't
12:18 <jonadab> aosdict: away status can also be seen in /whois.
12:19 <jonadab> Actually, I kind of want my IRC client to notify me when I nickping somebody who's away, for the first time since they went away.
12:21 <NeroOneTrueKing> FIQ: it's intentional that dipping a magical long sword for excalibur doesn't result in a magical excalibur, isn't it?
12:22 <Beholder> [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 4857 points, T:3134, killed by a bugbear
12:23 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) wished for "uncursed magic marker named The Wand of Orcus", on T:38209
12:34 <Beholder> [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) changed form for the first time, becoming a horned devil, on T:4292
12:50 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: yes
12:50 <FIQ> also I like how you name your markers after dnethack artifacts :P
12:52 <NeroOneTrueKing> What should my odds be of getting a sacrifice gift? (Crowned, no sac gifts yet, no artifact wishes) 
13:01 <FIQ> you still haven't gotten any?
13:01 <NeroOneTrueKing> none
13:02 <FIQ> !tell K2 can you give me NeroOneTrueKing's save so I can verify that the artigift counter is working correctly in older saves?
13:02 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
13:02 <NeroOneTrueKing> Although I don't really need one anymore since I dipped for Excalibur (my poor, poor thirsty long sword of searching)
13:03 <FIQ> well
13:03 <FIQ> you satiated its thirst
13:03 <FIQ> I bet it's happy :)
13:03 <NeroOneTrueKing> and Excalibur does have the searching component already
13:04 <FIQ> it does not
13:04 <FIQ> not in fiqhack
13:04 <NeroOneTrueKing> oh okay
13:04 <FIQ> because I buffed searching
13:04 <FIQ> and figured excal did *not* need that buff
13:04 <FIQ> with all the other stuff it has
13:06 <Beholder> [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu), 14268 points, T:7682, killed by a horse
13:23 <Chris_ANG> !tell K2 I pushed a display improvement for dnethack 3.15.1.  It doesn't break save compatibility.
13:23 <Beholder> Will do, Chris_ANG!
13:39 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) wished for "the blessed Magic Mirror of Merlin", on T:42303
13:39 <NeroOneTrueKing> FIQ: I got a message "Debug: 1" after wishing for the magic mirror of merlin
13:40 <FIQ> hm
13:40 <FIQ> I forgot to remove that, oops
13:41 <FIQ> (usually they're wizmode-only, but since wizmode wishing is special I had that in ordinary play)
13:41 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a fix
13:41 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
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13:55 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha), 75 points, T:192, killed by a monster (ultimate twen)
13:55 <loli> !lastgame
13:55 <Beholder> loli: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/d/dolores/slex/dumplog/1502387539.slex.txt
14:00 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Mal Cha), 49 points, T:187, killed by an orcish dagger
14:18 -!- hf_guest_76626 has joined #hardfought
14:18 -!- hf_guest_76626 is now known as jonathanhanes
14:18 <jonathanhanes> !role nd
14:18 <Beholder> jonathanhanes: barbarian
14:21 <K2> morning/afternoon/evening!
14:21 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-08-10 13:02 EDT: can you give me NeroOneTrueKing's save so I can verify that the artigift counter is working correctly in older saves?
14:21 <Beholder> K2: Message from Chris_ANG at 2017-08-10 13:23 EDT: I pushed a display improvement for dnethack 3.15.1.  It doesn't break save compatibility.
14:21 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-08-10 13:41 EDT: pushed a fix
14:21 <jonathanhanes> good morning
14:21 <K2> it is afternoon here, but i just woke up
14:21 * K2 hates night shift
14:22 <jonathanhanes> bleh, couldn't imagine
14:22 <K2> ok lets see...
14:22 <K2> Chris_ANG I think I already pulled that last night, but lemme dbl check
14:23 <K2> ah this is new
14:26 <K2> dnetHack is updated
14:26 <jonathanhanes> damn
14:26 <jonathanhanes> why did that have to be conflict
14:26 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Bar Hum Mal Neu), 888 points, T:1166, killed by Ms. Sarangan; the shopkeeper
14:26 <K2> doh
14:27 <jonathanhanes> !role nd
14:27 <Beholder> jonathanhanes: priest
14:28 <K2> FIQhack updated
14:30 <FIQ> K2: fiqhack fix is unrelated to NeroOneTrueKing's issue
14:30 <K2> k
14:32 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed figurine of a surya deva", on T:40228
14:33 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha) killed The Greater Hell-Lichen, on T:2225
14:33 <loli> huh
14:33 <loli> that's note worthy/
14:35 <jonathanhanes> sweet
14:35 <jonathanhanes> my bones file with 2 boh's
14:36 <jonathanhanes> oh yah and "oR
14:36 <jonathanhanes> and I'm a priest
14:37 <jonathanhanes> now lets see how I can screw this up
14:38 <jonathanhanes> Also, to hell with you soko :D
14:39 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed figurine of a furious whirlwind", on T:40261
14:41 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Pri Hum Mal Neu), 1922 points, T:1548, killed by a gnome lord
14:41 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed figurine of a surya deva", on T:40289
14:52 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed ring of free action", on T:40403
14:54 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) wished for "blessed +2 cloak of magic resistance", on T:40408
15:01 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) became the Glory of Arioch, on T:40541
15:05 <Beholder> [dnh] ChrisANG (Brd Hlf Fem Neu), 36694 points, T:16560, escaped
15:15 <Tarmunora_> And now
15:15 <Tarmunora_> For the fun game of finding the candalabrum
15:15 <Tarmunora_> As I have forgotten where my stash was
15:17 <K2> neat! so on facebook you can now change your gender to 'custom' and put in basically whatever you want
15:18 <K2> I now self-identify on facebook as a 'toaster oven'
15:18 <K2> \o/
15:18 <hothraxxa> meat popsicle
15:18 <K2> hah
15:18 <K2> yesssssss
15:18 <hothraxxa> one of my all time favourite movies
15:18 <K2> someone here should change theirs to something like a gelatenous cube
15:18 <K2> multipass!
15:20 <aosdict> are you prepared for being part of the statistics in the several articles that will inevitably come out in a couple weeks?
15:20 <K2> absolutely
15:21 <K2> however, that info can only be seen by friends per my facebook settings
15:24 <K2> hothraxxa - https://media.giphy.com/media/KUBtckMKh3AKk/giphy.gif
15:25 <hothraxxa> heh
15:28 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha), 10263 points, T:4127, killed by a bullet
15:41 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha), 434 points, T:588, killed by a monster (dire wolf)
15:41 <Beholder> [dnh] ChrisANG (Ana Dro Fem Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1411
15:48 <Tarmunora_> The candelabrum is still missing. What have I done?
15:52 <Beholder> [nd] simplejim (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 350 points, T:1044, killed by a coyote
15:53 <Tarmunora_> Oh good. Found it
15:55 <K2> \o/
15:55 <loli> even a +8 helmet can't save a chaos sorcerer from the their starting pet
15:55 <loli> ..........
15:56 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha), 910 points, T:797, killed by a monster (dull unicorn), while flinching
15:57 <Chris_ANG> Tarmunora_: Always #annotate your stash level :P
15:57 <Tarmunora_> It was buried in a corner of the castle
15:57 <loli> how do you see what levels are annoated
15:57 <Tarmunora_> Under an inconspicuous stack of soldier equipment
15:57 <loli> after you #annotate?
15:58 <Tarmunora_> crtl-o
15:58 <loli> C-o doesn't do anything
16:01 <aosdict> I don't think it exists in slex
16:02 <loli> :(
16:03 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:43220
16:04 <Tarmunora_> HUh
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16:04 <Tarmunora_> He got aggro on me for some reason. Early Book of the Dead though
16:08 <Chris_ANG> loli: Try #overview
16:08 <loli> thanks
16:08 <loli> wonder why it's not bound to C-o by default
16:10 <Chris_ANG> C-o is wizmode dungeon overview by default, at least in 3.4.3
16:15 <aosdict> Chris_ANG: any thoughts on how flanking mechanics could work as a to-hit effect?
16:15 <aosdict> I have most of a system fleshed out, but I'm having some difficulty getting walls into a good place
16:16 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed Dagon, on T:43943
16:17 <Chris_ANG> Thoughts, though since I don't know the details of your system they may not be useful
16:17 <Chris_ANG> #1 thought is "Don't do anything with player facing, it's an interface nightmare"
16:17 <aosdict> Agreed
16:17 <Chris_ANG> dnh has a few things where relative positions of monsters matter.
16:18 <Chris_ANG> (dnh *also* has a mechanic where rogues can get their sneak attack damage by attacking monsters from behind :/)
16:18 <aosdict> the system for monsters is basically examining the 8 directions of attack and determining the maximum number of adjacent directions that don't have monsters in them
16:19 <aosdict> so if you're fighting two monsters next to each other it's not so bad as two monsters on opposite sides
16:20 <Chris_ANG> Ok, that seems good.  That's similar to the dnh system for weeping angels.  Two weeping angels next to each other are easy to keep in view,
16:20 <Chris_ANG> two weeping angels on opposite sides are hard, and so move much faster.
16:20 <aosdict> The problem I'm struggling with is walls
16:21 <aosdict> or other inaccessible terrain
16:21 <aosdict> because backing the player into a corner should give the attacker advantage because the walls don't let them dodge
16:21 <aosdict> but, in a straight corridor where there are lots of walls, the defender should have a pretty easy time defending
16:22 <FIQ> Chris_ANG: why not change it?
16:22 <Chris_ANG> Ah, ok.  Just check for walls directly across from the monster, then?
16:22 <FIQ> to #wizoverview or whatever
16:22 <FIQ> and make ^O #overview
16:23 <Chris_ANG> loli's playing slex.  dnh does that.
16:23 <aosdict> hmm. maybe a wall next to both the attacker and defender doesn't count
16:23 <Chris_ANG> er, I think it's slex.
16:24 <aosdict> but then ranged attacks in corridors have the original problem still
16:25 <Beholder> [dnh] ChrisANG (Ana Dro Fem Cha), 9950 points, T:2344, killed by a wand
16:27 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed the Chromatic Dragon, on T:44311
16:31 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) destroyed Orcus, on T:44388
16:35 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed the creature in the ice, on T:44546
16:35 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed Kostchtchie, on T:44556
16:41 <Beholder> [dnh] ChrisANG (Ana Dro Fem Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:694
16:46 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed the invisible Leviathan, on T:44819
16:47 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed the invisible Mephistopheles, on T:44836
16:48 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed Asmodeus, on T:44840
16:48 <Tarmunora_> Good riddance
16:48 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed the invisible Dispater, on T:44843
16:51 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha), 16086 points, T:2676, killed by a monster (six-footed snake)
16:54 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed the invisible Daemon, on T:45186
17:04 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed Oona, on T:45669
17:11 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) performed the invocation, on T:45852
17:15 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) killed the elder priestess of Moloch, on T:45988
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17:25 -!- Tomthetom has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:28 <Beholder> [nd] Rx (Hea Gno Fem Neu), 1571 points, T:2958, killed by brainlessness
17:32 <aosdict> yani: a monster that knocks you back. I don't think anything like that exists in vanilla.
17:35 <loli> what should I wish for?
17:40 <K2> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Wish#What_to_wish_for
17:41 <K2> however
17:41 <loli> this is slex
17:41 <loli> lkol
17:41 <K2> slex is an entirely different beast
17:41 <loli> I'm guessing it's different
17:41 <loli> yup...
17:41 <K2> yeah
17:41 <loli> I know amy goes for +3
17:41 <loli> but I don't see logs on irc of what she wished for
17:41 <K2> amy should update this wiki page
17:42 <K2> i have no idea what to tell you in regards to slex
17:42 <loli> I'm just looking at the incomplete item list
17:42 <loli> maybe something with magic resistance
17:42 <loli> anything else besdies blessed and greased?
17:42 <loli> any other preterms I should add?
17:43 <K2> fixed
17:43 <loli> what does fixed do?
17:43 <K2> fixed makes it fooproof
17:43 <loli> fooproof?
17:43 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha) wished for "", on T:1414
17:43 <loli> shiiit
17:44 <loli> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
17:44 <K2> rust/fire/corrosion proof
17:44 <K2> hah wtf happened?
17:44 <loli> I tried to use my emacs/bash key commands
17:44 <aosdict> you hit escape or an arrow key?
17:44 <loli> C-b
17:44 <loli> I then hit my capslock ie esc by accident
17:44 <loli> Q_Q
17:44 <K2> ugh
17:44 <loli> :(
17:45 <aosdict> ...why have I not seen Q_Q before, that's far better than things like :'(
17:45 <loli> I tend to use it a lot
17:46 <loli> I was going to become super OP
17:46 <aosdict> should Beholder say someone wished for "", or should it say some YAFMy thing?
17:46 <loli> but I guess not...
17:46 <FIQ> play a variant with a better input interface
17:46 <FIQ> or just use curses UI
17:46 <loli> curses crashes
17:46 <loli> on slex
17:46 <FIQ> shouldn't happen anymore
17:46 <aosdict> dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha) wasted a wish, on T:1414
17:46 <loli> does curses use bash/emacs key bindings?
17:46 <loli> and was the server patched?
17:47 <loli> because it would be rather annoying to just see all my progress go
17:47 <FIQ> no but it will only abort a wish if you actually press esc
17:47 <K2> the last patch i did for slex was the one concerning that monster bug 
17:47 <loli> so it would still crash, yes
17:47 <loli> I rather like the look of curses
17:47 <loli> It's annoying to pick a race, however
17:47 <loli> since I have to go to tty
17:47 <FIQ> slex is too much for curses to handle
17:47 <FIQ> rip
17:47 <loli> I think they are going to fix it soon
17:48 <loli> .... I hope
17:48 <loli> it was oddly enough the default in the 2.0.0 and 2.0.1 build
17:48 <FIQ> yeah amy hated it
17:48 <FIQ> so she got rid of the default
17:49 <loli> well that's not why
17:49 <loli> I complained about the crashes
17:49 <FIQ> I think Elronnd sneaked in that change lol
17:49 <loli> and she was like
17:49 <loli> good point
17:49 <loli> aaaaaah
17:49 <FIQ> no she was against it all the way
17:49 <loli> it's a nice interface
17:49 <loli> why was she?
17:49 <FIQ> but would rather Elronnd not remove it from the server I guess
17:49 <dtype> K2: I have a new emotional problem
17:49 <FIQ> you can ask larientelrunya
17:49 <dtype> I'm invested in how much sun shows up today
17:50 <dtype> cloudy days make me sad, not because of clouds, but because of lower electricity generation
17:50 <dtype> K2: if you had to tie bitcoin mining to the presence of the sun, you'd be sad on cloudy days too
17:50 <loli> that is rather sad
17:51 <dtype> I don't think it is healthy to have a financial reason to be sad on cloudy days, in addition to just having a cloudy day.
17:51 <K2> lol
17:51 <K2> oh this is classic
17:51 <K2> dtype: it will be OK
17:51 <dtype> a cloudy day like.... actually costs me $5
17:52 <K2> hahahahah
17:52 <K2> if you had a battery backup bank, it wouldnt matter
17:52 <aosdict> if you're the sort of person who likes clouds and rainy days though, getting solar panels is a win-win
17:52 <jonadab> dtype: Technically, the cloudy day doesn't cost you $5.  It makes you $5 less than a sunny day, perhaps.  Not the same.
17:52 <aosdict> either you're generating power, or you get a cloudy day
17:53 <jonadab> aosdict: What if I mostly like snow?
17:53 <K2> and technically you're still generating power right? just not as much
17:53 <jonadab> ^ That.
17:53 <jonadab> dtype: Also, maybe don't move to northeastern Ohio.
17:53 <dtype> yeah is a lot less than cloud-optimists want to say. Reasonable clouds cut me to 25% production
17:54 <dtype> the "90% of the sun's power actually makes it through on cloudy days" are all full of BS
17:54 <dtype> I can measure otherwise
17:54 <K2> dtype: use your mind and skills to develop a panel that can utilize the full spectrum of electtomagnetic radiation that the sun produces that makes its way to earths surface
17:54 * jonadab grew up thinking a sunny day was one where the sky was _light_ slate gray.
17:54 <jonadab> dtype: Depends on the clouds.
17:54 <aosdict> jonadab: if you're in northeastern Ohio, I think you should be all set?
17:54 <aosdict> lake effect snow and all that?
17:54 <jonadab> aosdict: I'm in central OHio now.
17:54 <K2> a big part of that 90% is not within the visible spectrum
17:54 <jonadab> Too far south to get any lake effect.
17:55 <dtype> K2: also turns out to be false in any spectrum
17:55 <jonadab> We're like an hour and fifteen minutes south of the west end of the lake.
17:55 <jonadab> But yes, where I grew up we got rather more snow.
17:55 <K2> well, we are talking about california clouds
17:55 <aosdict> I don't particularly like western New York, but I could move there just to get all the snow
17:55 <K2> those are special
17:55 <jonadab> aosdict: Oooh, Buffalo?
17:55 <jonadab> Now _there_ is some lake-effect country.
17:56 <jonadab> My favorite snow story ever is what happened in Buffalo in, umm, I think it was '79 or so.
17:56 <K2> fun fact: buffalo is a major solar panel manufacturing hub
17:56 <jonadab> THe year the lake froze over early.
17:56 <jonadab> K2: Manufacturing, maybe.  I assume they ship 'em elsewhere for deployment.
17:56 <K2> ask elon musk
17:56 <K2> he owns it now
17:57 <jonadab> Temporary.  He never holds onto anything very long.
17:57 <jonadab> He relies on the fact that the news media covers everything he buys, which raises its price, and then he sells.
17:57 <jonadab> Not sure how he got the media to treat him that way in the first place, but it's a real racket.
17:58 <dtype> i have musk panels
17:59 <dtype> well panasonic panels, musk installed and maintained
17:59 <K2> FIQ - Your zombifying disease wears off.
17:59 <K2> i'm ok right?
17:59 <jonadab> If it wears off, that's good.
18:00 <K2> just making sure
18:00 <loli> I see my own ghost...
18:00 <K2> i'm having grunthack flashbacks
18:00 <aosdict> loli: in vanilla at least, your own ghost is encountered quite a lot
18:01 <loli> I hope I drop my old items
18:05 <jonathanhanes> Jonadab: there was actually a board game made in commemoration of that blizzard in '79
18:05 <jonathanhanes> My mom had it
18:07 <aosdict> Wikipedia seems to think it was in 1977
18:08 <jonathanhanes> Ah yes, you are right. Can't trust this old brain to remember nuffin
18:10 <jonathanhanes> http://imgur.com/a/yPPGG
18:10 <jonadab> Ah, '77 is possible.
18:10 <aosdict> Board game pretty much confirms it
18:10 <jonadab> My parents always said '79 was the really super cold year, but we were in northern Indiana at the time, so it could've been slightly different.
18:11 <jonadab> ('78 was the big snow.)
18:12 <aosdict> according to Wikipedia that blizzard didn't even contain lake effect snow due to Lake Erie being frozen over, it was just a really big blizzard.
18:12 <jonadab> aosdict: Actually, no, it was the lake being frozen over that _caused_ the one I'm talking about. 
18:12 <jonadab> And no, it wasn't lake effect.
18:12 <jonadab> Well, not the _usual_ lake effect.
18:12 <jonadab> What happened was, the lake froze over real early.
18:13 <jonadab> And then after that, every time it snowed, snow accumulated on the lake.
18:13 <jonadab> Then what happened was essentially a wind storm strong enough to blow all that accumulated snow off the whole surface of the lake, right down to the eastern end.
18:14 <jonadab> Some roads in the Buffalo area went from clear to ten feet of snow in _minutes_.
18:14 <aosdict> Yeah I meant not the standard lake effect mechanism
18:14 <loli> I wonder how many kicks a ghost can take!
18:14 <jonadab> aosdict: right, but it also wasn't mostly new snowfall.
18:14 <jonadab> It was basically just really severe drifting.
18:15 <jonadab> A drift big enough to bury a metropolitan area _thoroughly_.
18:15 <jonadab> Weather can be a heck of a thing.
18:16 <aosdict> not much weather in the Dungeons though
18:16 <jonadab> EPI: until now.
18:17 <jonadab> I mean, just imagine, dungeon blizzards, dungeon hurricanes, dungeon sandstorms, ...
18:17 <jonathanhanes> rain filling up pits and making pools of water
18:18 <jonathanhanes> dust storms killing visibility to 0 tiles
18:18 <jonathanhanes> snow leaving a light dusting the will show footprints and also make you stumble
18:18 <aosdict> we have ice terrain, why not snow?
18:18 <jonathanhanes> heavy winds blowing all of the scrolls out of your inventory
18:19 <jonathanhanes> good stuff indeed
18:19 <aosdict> also if snow terrain was added the Valk quest should use it instead of ice
18:20 <jonadab> EPI: the Valk quest should have actual volcanos, which erupt, creating growing rivers of lava where previously there was other terrain.
18:20 <aosdict> there was also that one Dudley strip about a hostile cloud that followed him around raining on him
18:21 <jonathanhanes> Dust from the dust storm gets into your potions! They look rather muddy now.
18:21 <aosdict> s - 20 brown potions.
18:22 <aosdict> a - a dusty spellbook. x - a dusty spellbook. F - a dusty spellbook.
18:23 <jonathanhanes> http://imgur.com/a/fgKeq
18:23 <jonadab> jonathanhanes: I think "muddy potion" is actually an appearance in some variants.
18:24 <aosdict> Murky is in vanilla
18:24 <jonadab> Yeah, I think "muddy potion" is in Slash'em and also Fourk.
18:25 <jonathanhanes> I think there was one where if you were phasing through walls your potions would become muddy
18:25 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha) killed the ghost of dolores, the former Dirty Camper, on T:3414
18:25 <jonathanhanes> But that may have just been an EPI
18:25 <loli> finally
18:25 <loli> I forget how good my inventory was on that character
18:26 -!- jonathanhanes has quit [Quit: *poof*]
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18:27 <jonadab> EPI:  each object that's generated has a 1/50 chance to be "worthless", which is not apparent until you try to do anything with it (other than pick it up, which works as normal), at which point "You can't.  It's worthless", and the item is identified as worthless (so it'll appear in inventory as such).
18:27 <jonadab> Of course, drop counts as an action other than pick-up, so once acquired you can't get rid of these objects directly.
18:33 * aosdict rates this Pretty Darn Evil
18:35 <aosdict> jonadab: make an Evil Patch Idea Database, where users can rate EPIs on how evil they are
18:36 <jonadab> Heh.
18:37 <jonadab> I actually had something sort of kind of like that at one point, for the list of uses for peanut butter (except instead of how evil, it was for rating how useful/interesting they were).
18:39 <aosdict> ...you have a list of uses for peanut butter?
18:39 <aosdict> I need to see this
18:39 <jonadab> Let me see if I can dig up a copy.
18:41 <jonadab> Hmm, I found a really old copy from when we only had about 500 uses.  That's... probably enough.  http://jonadab.jumpingcrab.com/pastebin/831.txt
18:42 <jonadab> This is from way before we started rating them and stuff.  That all came later.
18:43 <jonathanhanes> 11. Drop it from a plane over Ethiopia to feed all the starving children.
18:43 <jonadab> Starving children in Ethiopia used to be a fairly major meme, back in the pre-internet days.
18:45 <aosdict> and, apparently, hating Barney the Purple Dinosaur?
18:45 <jonadab> That was contemporary when the list was written.  (Barney was in his first or second season.)
18:46 <jonadab> There was a Doom mod that turned one of the more common enemies into Barney so you could shoot him.
18:46 <jonathanhanes> http://imgur.com/a/YJQ16
18:46 <aosdict> And nethack has him too!
18:47 <FIQ> K2: it's basically grunthack zombification except it has 2 stages
18:48 <FIQ> at first it can wear off naturally if no zombies are nearby
18:48 <FIQ> only if it builds up enough does it turn terminal
18:48 <FIQ> (the game will tell you)
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18:57 <loli> how do I butcher vampires as a vampire
18:57 <loli> they keep coming back to life
19:04 <loli> fuck
19:04 <loli> I mistyped
19:04 <loli> and pressed n to stop eating
19:05 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Cha Ang Fem Cha), 45265 points, T:5366, choked on a flying troll corpse
19:30 <Tangles> Ahh... choked on a misleading "Stop eating" prompt.  Not the first time that's happened.
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19:31 <loli> I just wanted to get rid of the trolls
19:31 <loli> they kept resapwning
19:31 <loli> and I was a vampire for a while
19:31 <Jonathanhanes> !role nd
19:31 <Beholder> Jonathanhanes: caveman
19:34 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Psi Ang Fem Cha), 253 points, T:118, killed by a monster (varying-colored jelly)
19:34 <loli> Tangles: is there any other way to destroy corpses?
19:34 <Tangles> troll corpses.
19:34 <loli> yes
19:35 <Tangles> I was going to write a song about that at one point...
19:35 <NeroOneTrueKing> polymorph or a tinning kit
19:35 <loli> I think i had a tinning kit
19:35 <loli> never knew what they were used for
19:35 <aosdict> "choked on a flying troll corpse" makes it sound like the corpse was flying through the air and you caught it in your moutn
19:35 <Tangles> lock them in a chest, throw them in a moat or lava.
19:35 <aosdict> mouth*
19:36 <Tangles> bury them maybe? less practical as you need boulders.
19:36 <Tangles> locking them in a closet would work too.
19:37 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) entered the Planes, on T:47474
19:38 <aosdict> Tangles: EPI: burying a troll corpse will make it rise out of the ground as a troll zombie, which is even harder to stop reanimating
19:38 <Tangles> heh
19:39 <Tangles> EPI: throwing it into water turns it into a water troll; lava -> rock troll, etc.
19:39 <jonadab> Surely throwing a troll corpse in lava should result in a lava troll.
19:40 <Tangles> Well, yes. if those existed.... EPI: lava trolls
19:41 <aosdict> And locking one in a box results in a freedom fighter troll and a destroyed box
19:41 <jonadab> And putting one in an icebox results in an ice troll?
19:42 <aosdict> freedom fighter trolls go around liberating all the other trolls from their boxes
19:42 <Tangles> heh
19:43 <jonadab> EPI: arch-troll.  Like an arch-lich, except it doesn't stay dead.
19:43 <jonadab> Non-genocideable, obviously.
19:43 <Tangles> obviously!
19:44 <jonadab> Generates in groups.
19:44 <Tangles> I feel bad about logging this channel now.
19:44 <jonadab> Heh.
19:44 <jonadab> The EPIs would end up on the EPI list eventually anyway.
19:44 <aosdict> yeah, how do you think jonadab gets them?
19:45 <aosdict> My yani parser also has an option to search for epis but I don't use it because this channel gets flooded with them
19:45 <jonadab> Heh.
19:46 <aosdict> Well, probably the *real* reason is I have no reason to retrieve EPIs
19:46 <jonadab> Indeed.
19:48 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Cav Dwa Mal Law) had Grayswandir bestowed upon him by Anu, on T:1884
19:54 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) destroyed the invisible Pestilence, on T:47933
19:55 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) destroyed the invisible Death, on T:47963
19:56 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha) destroyed Famine, on T:47986
19:57 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Brd Hlf Fem Cha), 4308806 points, T:48006, ascended
https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/T/Tarmunora/dnethack/dumplog/1500005771.dnh.txt
19:58 <K2> woo congrats Tarmunora!!
19:59 <loli> congrats!
19:59 <Tarmunora_> Thanks!
19:59 <NeroOneTrueKing> congrats
19:59 <Tarmunora_> Now I can splat some adventurers in 3.15.1!
20:00 <Chris_ANG> Congrats :)
20:00 <K2> Chris_ANG i updated dnethack again, so we should be current
20:02 <Chris_ANG> Thanks :)
20:03 <loli> what type of stuff does dnethack have?
20:03 <loli> is it a hard variant as well?
20:06 <aosdict> grats Tarmunora!
20:07 <aosdict> loli: I would really like to see people's ideas of general variant difficulty.
20:08 <aosdict> I'm inclined to say most are more difficult than vanilla, except nethack4 and maybe fiqhack.
20:11 <loli> I see
20:12 <loli> the only variants that I've played is unnethack and slex
20:12 <loli> nothing else really
20:12 <loli> and I played unnethack over nethack because of the default config file
20:13 <aosdict> I've played grunt, un, nh4, and vanilla. My one game of slex doesn't count.
20:13 <loli> are there any other versions of nethack that are as hard as slex
20:13 <aosdict> So I don't have any clue about dnethack, Fourk, spork, or anything else.
20:13 <loli> what is grunthack?
20:14 <jonadab> GruntHack is one of the older variants.
20:14 <jonadab> It has a reputation for being hard, mostly because its monsters know how to do things that monsters in vanilla don't know how to do.
20:14 <aosdict> Adds some cool stuff, but adds some difficulty increases and just plain annoying things
20:15 <aosdict> cough, mines water, cough, zombies, cough
20:15 <jonadab> Indeed.
20:15 <aosdict> And it has object properties, which are neat.
20:15 <loli> object properties?
20:15 <aosdict> It pioneered object properties I think
20:16 <aosdict> object properties = some items randomly have 1+ magical properties
20:16 <loli> ahh I see
20:16 <loli> I think slex has that?
20:16 <loli> though I could be mistaken
20:16 <aosdict> long sword of reflection, thirsty darts, amulet of life saving of hunger
20:16 <jonadab> What do you wish for?  "Blessed +3 dragonhide water walking boots of speed."
20:17 <loli> I see
20:17 <loli> that's rather cool
20:17 <loli> wtf are these levels
20:17 <loli> https://puu.sh/x70YI/8546609074.png
20:17 <loli> the one above this had less than 20 tiles to move around
20:17 <loli> 34* to be exact
20:18 <jonadab> No idea.
20:18 <jonadab> Could be something slex-specific.
20:18 <loli> I'm sure it is 
20:18 <loli> it's just lava everywhere
20:18 <loli> at dlvl4
20:20 <K2> i used to think grunthack was the hardest variant i've played
20:20 <K2> sporkhack has taken that lead
20:20 <K2> slex might be the most difficult because its so weird
20:20 <aosdict> slex still has it in the bag :P
20:20 <loli> is slex really that weird compared to other *hack games?
20:21 <K2> hah. yes
20:21 <K2> by leaps and bounds
20:21 <K2> i'm convinced amy drops acid on a regular basis
20:21 <loli> hahaha
20:22 <loli> I will say sometimes it's hard to tell where to go
20:22 <loli> https://puu.sh/x71aU/a8449854db.png
20:22 <loli> like just lok at this
20:22 <aosdict> from everything I've heard about slex, it might not be that hard mechanically, with full knowledge of the game, but there are so many interface screws and unbalanced threats that a large part of survival depends on randomness
20:22 <K2> damn
20:22 <loli> the interface screws are easy to defeat
20:22 <loli> for greyout C-r out of it
20:22 <K2> and amy is the only one to have ascended slex
20:22 <loli> when it starts to go away
20:22 <loli> amy is really good
20:23 <loli> she did that fleecy slex challenge
20:23 <loli> on her first 2 attempts
20:23 <jonadab> slex isn't so much difficult as, not to put too fine a point on it, unplayable.
20:23 <loli> the second attempt is on dlvl14
20:23 <Tarmunora_> loli: dNethack is balanced as vanilla-ish difficulty, but a lot of not-so-balanced power creep
20:23 <loli> I see
20:23 <jonadab> dnethack's approach to balance is "Thing A is way OP?  Hmm, let's buff things B, C, and D to balance it out."
20:23 <loli> hahaa
20:24 <jonadab> Which is not entirely invalid.
20:24 <loli> just make everything kill you just as hard
20:24 <Tarmunora_> Depending on luck and race/role, you can either stop your way from the castle to astral, or get one-shot by demogorgon 10 levels into gehennom
20:24 <jonadab> GruntHack kind of leans that direction too.
20:24 <jonadab> YOu _need_ all-dragonhide everything.
20:24 <jonadab> Because you're gonna get cancel-spammed in the late game.
20:24 <loli> being 1 shoted is no fun
20:24 <aosdict> to be fair that would be easily resolved by tuning down the cancelspam
20:25 <loli> having to get x just sounds tedious
20:25 <Tarmunora_> Well, Demogorogn was nerfed semi-recently so his filth spell respects free action
20:25 <hothraxxa> slex is probably impossible if you aren't amy
20:25 <Beholder> [nd] hermetic (Hea Gno Mal Neu), 9214 points, T:9783, killed by a Woodland-elf, while frozen by a monster
20:25 <loli> I'm going to try to get my first ascension on it
20:26 <loli> that's my goal
20:26 <Tarmunora_> He used to be able to paralysis-lock you with it ignoring free action, then shred all your armour (including artifacts), and bisect you
20:26 <jonadab> hothraxxa: I suspect slex is only impossible if you aren't willing to pour forty hours a week into it for a few months and source-dive everything.
20:26 <aosdict> jonadab: my approach to balance is "let's write up a massive essay on the wiki and analyze everything" :P
20:26 <hothraxxa> well maybe
20:26 <loli> or you can just ask amy everything
20:26 <hothraxxa> loli: how do you deal with not knowing what anything is?
20:26 <loli> I know what a lot of things are
20:26 <jonadab> If you _are_ willing to do those things, then you just need to play _enough_ games and sooner or later you'll get lucky and get one where it's technically possible to survive.
20:26 <loli> if I don't know something I ask amy
20:26 <hothraxxa> yes, amy is helpful
20:27 -!- Grasshopper has joined #hardfought
20:27 <loli> and she's given me enough advice to get a lot better
20:27 <loli> also has turned me into her evil challenge runs
20:27 <K2> right now, i think hothraxxa prob has the best shot at ascending slex out of ppl i know that arent amy
20:27 <loli> I passed the easy part of kuwa
20:27 <loli> did he get the amulet
20:27 <loli> and die
20:27 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Grasshopper] by ChanServ
20:27 <loli> was hothraxxa that guy?
20:27 <hothraxxa> wow, that's nice to sya k2
20:27 <jonadab> The Slash'em approach to balance is "Gypsy wishes are unbalanced?  Hmm.  I know, let's add light sabres!"
20:27 <loli> I was told there are 2 people that have gotten close
20:27 <K2> well you've taken a serious approach ti playing it
20:27 <K2> to
20:28 <Grasshopper> Hey friends :D
20:28 <K2> Grasshopper o/
20:28 <Grasshopper> I'm talking to you from linux for the first time
20:28 <hothraxxa> slex simply makes it next to impossible to identify anything
20:28 <loli> hello Grasshopper 
20:28 <K2> !tequila Grasshopper
20:28 * Beholder tosses Grasshopper a tall glass of Patron Silver tequila, prayed over by Rodney at 175 degrees Fahrenheit.
20:28 <hothraxxa> altars vanish if you buc test too much
20:28 <Grasshopper> woooot
20:28 <loli> what do you mean hothraxxa ? you have identify scrolls
20:28 <loli> just drop everything on an alter
20:29 * Grasshopper licks salt from thumb, throws back the tequila, drinks a beer to wash it down
20:29 <hothraxxa> i do! everything resists identification 90% of the time
20:29 <K2> ah Grasshopper, so no more windows
20:29 <loli> I get resistance quite a bit as well
20:29 <loli> it's rather annoying
20:29 <hothraxxa> have you not had an altar vanish because you dropped stuff on it?
20:29 <Grasshopper> K2: My Win 10 laptop has a fucked hard drive
20:29 <K2> :/
20:29 <loli> I've had alters go away
20:29 <loli> but not becuase I've dropped stuff
20:29 <K2> i have like a dozen spare laptop HDD's... need one?
20:29 <loli> I've had them later refuse to identify items
20:29 <loli> after identifying a lot
20:29 <Grasshopper> some boot sector or something issue I can't seem to fix
20:30 <hothraxxa> exactly. i finally got a unicorn horn. do you know what happened the first time i used it?
20:30 <Grasshopper> K2, I'd love a spare laptop drive
20:30 <loli> no idea
20:30 <K2> how many you need?
20:30 <hothraxxa> it turned to dust
20:30 <loli> rip
20:30 <hothraxxa> uncursed, by the way
20:30 <loli> that happens 
20:30 <Grasshopper> I have a trip planned to the biggest IT mall in Bangkok in about 2 weeks
20:30 <hothraxxa> yeah
20:30 <loli> esp if you are a centar
20:30 <hothraxxa> no i'm a rodneyan
20:31 <loli> god I need to find the stairs
20:31 <loli> how annoying
20:31 <loli> maybe panic dig will do the job
20:31 <Grasshopper> in other news, I have also worked out how to connect to hardfought.org via linux (Xubuntu) default terminal software 
20:31 <loli> congrats
20:31 <loli> just ssh
20:31 <loli> and bam
20:31 <Grasshopper> and wow, the colours are very different
20:32 <loli> on your terminal
20:32 <loli> you can change your colors fairly easily
20:32 <loli> it makes hack games quite pretty
20:32 <Grasshopper> there was a bit of fiddle-faddle involving the terminal window size
20:32 <Grasshopper> and I'll probably change the font
20:32 <loli> this level is evil :(
20:33 <loli> it needs minning
20:33 <loli> https://puu.sh/x71Bg/6f17870f9b.png
20:33 <Grasshopper> loli: yes, but I do like Putty for windows it is a very neat little app
20:33 <loli> panic digging only got me that far
20:34 <loli> there goes my weapon :(
20:34 <loli> it fell into lava
20:34 <loli> and there goes my shoes!
20:35 <loli> this game hates me
20:35 <K2> you can get putty for *nix as well, but it's pretty much un-necessary
20:35 <Grasshopper> so yeah, because my hard drive is fucked I'm running Xubuntu on my laptop from a USB key
20:35 <aosdict> loli: you know all those Evil Patch Ideas? Amy actively tries to apply as many of them as possible and make slex into the Evil Variant.
20:36 <K2> i personally use puttytray, as you can make the terminal window opaque
20:36 <loli> aosdict: she's sadistic when it comes to her game
20:36 <K2> Grasshopper: cool that'll work
20:36 <loli> that's part of what makes the game enjoyable
20:36 <K2> so how many drives do you need
20:36 <loli> I really like the camperstriker class
20:36 <loli> probably my favorite!
20:36 <Grasshopper> K2: I need 1 laptop HDD (=>750GB) that works
20:37 <K2> hmm
20:37 <K2> i dont think i have any that large
20:37 <K2> 300-350GB tops if thats ok
20:37 <Grasshopper>  the freight from US would be prohibitve
20:37 <loli> really K2 ?
20:37 <loli> here are my hardrives on this machine
20:37 <loli> https://puu.sh/x71Lq/0725b2fa4d.png
20:37 <K2> well they're drives i've pulled from laptops over the years
20:37 <loli> I filled up my laptops 1TB
20:38 <K2> the sizes range from 60GB to 320GB i think
20:38 <K2> in a electrostatic bag not doing anything heh
20:38 <loli> I'm a dumbass I attacked the stone monster again
20:38 <loli> I think I just wanted to not be stuck anymore
20:39 <K2> brb
20:39 <Grasshopper> K2 I have a bunch of old drives (not laptop ones, 3.5" big uns) but it is hard to find a use for small drives these days
20:39 <hothraxxa> loli: this is how id rewards me in slex: i find spanish gloves, i read standard id, all it tells me is unknown +0 uncursed gauntlets. i need gloves so i put them on
20:39 <hothraxxa> Whoops - your hands are squeezed by these gloves! 
20:39 <hothraxxa> G) a cursed +0 pair of unknown gauntlets (being worn) {4}
20:40 <loli> was it cursed id or something?
20:40 <hothraxxa> so id is nerfed, and random gloves autocurse
20:40 <loli> some gloves autocurse
20:40 <loli> same with really powerful heels
20:40 <hothraxxa> no, it was uncursed standard id
20:40 <loli> that's jank
20:41 <Grasshopper> ID in slex has some chance of success associated with it
20:41 <hothraxxa> yes i know. my point is you have NO WAY to anticipate this
20:41 <aosdict> hothraxxa: attempting to ID the gloves is what cursed them
20:41 <hothraxxa> hah
20:41 <loli> hahaha
20:41 <loli> maybe ask amy, hothraxxa ?
20:41 <loli> maybe there is a better way to id?
20:41 <aosdict> I should not have said that
20:41 <loli> lol
20:41 <loli> she will make it so
20:41 <aosdict> now it's actually going to be implemented
20:41 <hothraxxa> i did in a similar case. no real explanation was forthcoming
20:41 <hothraxxa> that's just how slex is
20:41 <loli> EPI: reading standard ID has a 1/64 chance of cursing items
20:42 <loli> 1/32 when cursed
20:42 <loli> and 1/128 when blessed
20:42 <Grasshopper> TIP: I like using shops to ID armor and weapons
20:42 <loli> I think this game wants me to play camper striker
20:42 <hothraxxa> Grasshopper: first, fins a shop
20:42 <aosdict> I think you mean a 1/32 when cursed, 1/8 when uncursed, and 1/1 when blessed
20:42 <hothraxxa> find
20:43 <Grasshopper> which is fine if you already have basic versions of everything
20:43 <hothraxxa> then, i have ch 3
20:43 <Grasshopper> but it doesn't help much with the "I need a pair of gloves" issue
20:43 <loli> time for another panic dig
20:43 <loli> this better give me the exit
20:43 <hothraxxa> take scrolls. there's a billion scroll names
20:43 <Grasshopper> hothraxxa: it doesn't matter how ugly you are, as long as you can work out the correct price
20:44 <hothraxxa> so i go to a shop and he tells me 600 for that scroll (buying)
20:44 <Grasshopper> but yes, I am not brave enough to try slex like you hothraxxa 
20:44 <hothraxxa> ok. now i know there's a 200 scroll
20:44 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Blo Ang Fem Cha) killed Moldoux, the Defenceless Mold, on T:1991
20:44 <hothraxxa> which one? no idea
20:44 <loli> oh and I died
20:44 <loli> [-57 -> 41]  The great wyrm of power claws you!--More--
20:44 <hothraxxa> aha, read standard id!
20:45 <hothraxxa> the scroll resists!
20:45 <loli> haha
20:45 <loli> I killed something sepcial
20:45 <loli> ??
20:45 <Grasshopper> I might have 5-6 dropouts on an average day and I don't want to face punishment for something that isn't my fault
20:45 <loli> what
20:46 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Blo Ang Fem Cha), 4061 points, T:1992, killed by a monster (great wyrm of power)
20:46 <loli> !lastgame
20:46 <Beholder> loli: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/d/dolores/slex/dumplog/1502408220.slex.txt
20:46 <hothraxxa> anyway my first mind flayer is on this level, so i will probably be dead soon
20:46 <loli>   This monster was under the protection of a Great Wyrm of Power!
20:46 <loli> that's why I died
20:46 <hothraxxa> <--- in: 3
20:46 <K2> Grasshopper yeah the largest drive i have is 32)GB if you would like it, pm me your mailing address, i'll ship it out tomorrow morning
20:46 <K2> 320
20:47 <zombifier> I had no idea what those lines in the dumplogmean and I know englando
20:47 <loli> Attacks: 8d12 claw physical, 8d12 claw physical, 10d14 bite physical, 10d14 bite physical, 10d14 breath random breath
20:47 <loli> JESUS
20:47 <hothraxxa> because in slex, you can't help running into one of the bazillion F monsters that drain you in every way possible
20:48 <zombifier> I find it funny that with all that insanity there's a line amy still won't cross
20:48 <hothraxxa> which one would that be?
20:49 <zombifier> don't wanna mention it since it'll most likely summon her here and rant
20:49 <hothraxxa> too late, she reads logs
20:49 <loli> 516 dmg max
20:50 <loli> or something
20:50 <hothraxxa> is there some rant i haven't been privvy too? i've seen many
20:50 <zombifier> oh well, I have a death wish anyway. It's dnethack's elder priest. she died to it and got really, really, really salty
20:50 <hothraxxa> ah yes, seen that one several times
20:50 <jonadab> She gets salty any time her usual strategy turns out not to work well in a variant that isn't hers.
20:50 <loli> zombifier: it's in slex
20:50 <loli> want the line?
20:51 <loli> Did you know that hte elder priest in dnethack is an absolute MOTHER FUCKER? Whoever invented that asshole tentacle attack should have its own real-life tentacle removed in a most painful way
20:52 <loli> it's quite enduring
20:52 <loli> time for another bloodsucker run
20:52 <jonadab> Is this a fortune cookie rumor, or a scroll label?
20:52 <loli> this time I hope I don't get stuck on a level
20:52 * aosdict wonders if she ever played unnethack and got to cthulhu... probably
20:52 <loli> that's for camperstriker
20:52 <loli> the loud speakers say that occasionally
20:52 <loli> camperstriker best role
20:52 <loli> due to all the messages
20:53 <loli> the medical kit is a really nice find
20:53 <loli> if you can find it
20:54 <loli> also angels seem op hothraxxa 
20:54 <loli> any other races that are good?
20:54 <zombifier> anyone compiled slex on Linux? I tried but the game crashes when selecting roles manually
20:54 <loli> yes
20:54 <loli> ahh
20:54 <loli> zombifier: you are using the ncurses interface
20:54 <loli> use the tty interface
20:54 <hothraxxa> loli: i've played rodneyans almost exclusively
20:55 <loli> why?
20:55 <zombifier> loli: thanks, gonna try that
20:55 <loli> make ~/.slashemextendedrc
20:55 <loli> zombifier: furtheromore the curses interface is unstable in game
20:55 <loli> and should not be turned on
20:55 <loli> and will change your terminal color if you're not on the server for some reason
20:55 <hothraxxa> when i started it was for junethack and rodneyans can level up quickly
20:55 <loli> OPTIONS=windowtype:tty
20:55 <loli> ahh
20:56 <hothraxxa> they also cause monster creation rates to go through the roof
20:56 <aosdict> yani: higher-level spells take several turns to cast
20:56 <hothraxxa> you will be constantly mobbed
20:56 <loli> hmm
20:56 <loli> that sounds annoying
20:57 <loli> the monster spawn rate is already high enough as it is
20:57 <hothraxxa> it is. try sokoban sometimes
20:57 <hothraxxa> -s
20:57 <loli> I'll do it with the camperstriker
20:57 <loli> the best class
20:57 <loli> you can just spam phasedoor
20:57 <loli> until you get unlucky
20:58 <hothraxxa> rodneyans have teleportitis and can teleport at will
20:58 <loli> that's excellent
20:58 <hothraxxa> also permanent flying
20:58 <loli> same with angels kinda
20:58 <loli> as long as you stay on good terms with your god
20:59 <loli> shit 
20:59 <loli> ate a newt and already deathly sick
21:01 <aosdict> jonadab: do you think it makes sense to be able to use a bow while wearing a shield, or should that be nerfed?
21:01 <aosdict> I'd feel better about saying yes, it should be nerfed if the other launchers took two hands to use, but they don't
21:04 <jonadab> aosdict: It is _arguable_ that bow should, realistically, be two-handed.  But everyone already prefers daggers...
21:04 <jonadab> I'd say gameplay and balance should normally trump realism.
21:05 -!- zombifier has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [SeaMonkey 2.46/20161213175921]]
21:05 <Tangles> lol I just glanced at my screen and saw "trump realism"
21:05 <aosdict> Well, that and I can envision drawing a bow while wearing a shield, though accuracy probably wouldn't be quite as good
21:05 <Tangles> which I assumed to be some variation on "alternative facts"
21:05 <aosdict> Yeah, okay, leaving it single-handed for now
21:05 <Grasshopper> an oxymoron if ever I've seen one
21:06 <K2> LOL
21:06 <K2> as a serving member in the US military, I am not allowed to publically say negative things about whoever our commander in chief happens to be
21:07 <K2> what goes on in my head is an entirely different matter
21:07 -!- zombifier has joined #hardfought
21:07 <Tangles> heh
21:07 <Grasshopper> K2: My favourite oxymoron is "army intelligence", which I think Danny DeVito explained in some movie
21:07 <K2> yesssssss
21:07 <aosdict> the military trumps the first amendment somehow? (no pun intended)
21:08 <K2> private citizen/civilian is not the same as someone serving
21:08 <Grasshopper> trump trumps it
21:08 <K2> different set of rules
21:08 <K2> in fact
21:08 <Grasshopper> he tells us that the media is all lies
21:08 <K2> we have to abide by two separate sets
21:08 <Grasshopper> which is the first thing a dictatorial ruler would say
21:08 <K2> normal laws plus UCMJ
21:09 <K2> trump started his own 'news' network fyi
21:09 <K2> debuted earlier this week
21:09 <Grasshopper> yeah, a propoganda network you mean
21:09 <K2> basically yeah
21:10 <Grasshopper> that's another thing dictatorial rulers are quick to do
21:10 <K2> there are some disturbing parallels
21:11 <Grasshopper> you don't get to be in charge of the world's largest democracy and then tell everyone that the free media (which safeguards democracy) is all bullshit
21:11 <K2> i dont think he'll make it to the end of his first term
21:11 <K2> but
21:11 <Grasshopper> you think??
21:11 <K2> i dunno
21:11 <Grasshopper> Bush Jnr made 2 terms and surprised everyone
21:11 <K2> i never thought he'd ever be elected but look what happened
21:12 <K2> shit
21:12 <Grasshopper> complacency
21:12 <Grasshopper> that's what happened
21:12 <K2> we used to think dubya was the worst pres ever
21:12 <K2> would pay to have him back at this point
21:12 <Grasshopper> yeah well, life has a was of surprising us all
21:12 <Grasshopper> yeah well, life has a way of surprising us all
21:12 <jonadab> What would you give to have Reagan back?
21:12 <K2> we derve what we got
21:12 <K2> deserve
21:12 <jonadab> True.
21:13 <Grasshopper> Reagan wasn't that bad in comparison
21:13 <aosdict> it took me a very long time to figure out what people meant when they said dubya. I eventually concluded he was a member of Bush's cabinet.
21:13 <K2> reagan would be considered a moderate by todays standards
21:13 <jonadab> aosdict: Wat?
21:13 <jonadab> aosdict: Do you not English?
21:13 <jonadab> How do _you_ pronounce the name of the letter W?
21:14 <K2> dub - ya
21:14 <aosdict> Double-you
21:14 <K2> if you're from where dubya is from, its dubya
21:14 * aosdict zaps a wand of cloning at jonadab 
21:14 <jonadab> aosdict: That's how most Americans _think_ they are saying it, when they aren't listening to themselves.
21:14 <jonadab> But what they actually say is either "Dubbaya" or "dubya".
21:14 <jonadab> Almost without exception.
21:15 <K2> i grew up in texas and oklahoma. its dubya
21:15 <K2> the plural of y'all is all y'all
21:15 <Grasshopper> so did GWB afaik
21:15 <aosdict> Also, I never really noticed that George Bush Jr was referred to as W a lot
21:15 <jonadab> In the Midwest, it becomes "dubya" when spoken quickly, "dubbaya" when being more careful.
21:15 <Grasshopper> ? 
21:16 <jonadab> Nobody over age nine is routinely so careful about saying it as to pronounce it as "double you".
21:16 <K2> oh yeah the Bush's are texas through and through
21:16 <K2> texans
21:17 <jonadab> aosdict: "George W. Bush" takes too long to say.
21:17 <aosdict> jonadab: the second reason is probably more of a contributing factor
21:17 <jonadab> aosdict: And this is the first term I've ever seen anyone call him "George Bush Jr", I think.
21:17 <jonadab> Sometimes he was just called "Bush" or "President Bush".
21:18 <aosdict> what do you call George HW Bush then?
21:18 <jonadab> Which was ok if in context it was clear that you meant the current one (at the time).
21:18 <jonadab> aosdict: "George Bush".
21:18 <jonadab> Nobody ever used his middle initials until his son got elected.
21:18 <jonadab> Which is why W. became W.
21:18 <aosdict> Yeah, I meant how is he referred to now? Bush Sr?
21:18 <jonadab> Sometimes.
21:19 <jonadab> Or sometimes "George H.W. Bush".
21:19 <jonadab> (A longer name is less of a problem when he's been out of office for a while.)
21:19 <jonadab> (Because we don't refer to him nearly as often.)
21:19 <Grasshopper> he still gets to be called Mr. President though, right?
21:19 <jonadab> Sometimes he's also called "the first Bush"
21:20 <aosdict> I thought that was only for the current president?
21:20 <jonadab> Grasshopper: Yes, but only in polite contexts.
21:20 <Grasshopper> A bird in the hand is worth two bushes
21:20 <jonadab> We've never had a President named Bird, or Byrd for that matter.
21:20 <jonadab> (And when I hear that name, I always think of the arctic/antarctic explorer.)
21:21 <jonadab> (Though, as with all surnames, it's been had by others.)
21:21 <Grasshopper> OK, let's change this a little: "An Obama in the hand is worth two bushes"
21:21 <jonadab> Don't talk about Obama.  It's too soon.
21:21 <Grasshopper> yeah, we're all still hurtin'
21:22 <Tangles> Australia had a PM named Bob Hawke for a while.  At the time, the opposition leader was named Andrew Peacock, and it was a widely held view that the entire house were a bunch of galahs.
21:22 <Grasshopper> Tangles: that view was actually correct
21:22 <jonadab> TIL that Australians think "galah" is a word.
21:22 <Grasshopper> however, it is even more correct now
21:22 <Grasshopper> jonadab: galah is a type of Australian native parrot
21:23 <Tangles> aaaaaaanyway. Jonadab's point is well made. Gameplay anf balance should trump realism.
21:23 <jonadab> Ah.
21:23 <Grasshopper> renowned for doing stupid things
21:24 <Grasshopper> for example: they will deliberately fly into twisters (mini-tornadoes) so that they can get spun around and flung out
21:24 <Grasshopper> just for fun
21:24 <Grasshopper> and when they sing... chatter... the sound is deafening
21:25 <aosdict> Tangles: well crap, I've been trying to write a system that has gameplay, balance, *and* realism. What do?
21:27 <Grasshopper> aosdict: make projectile weapns do more damage but less multifire?
21:28 <hothraxxa> The large dog zaps a quadratic wand! You are being punished for your misbehavior! The large dog zaps a wand of punishment! You are being punished for your misbehavior! Your iron ball gets heavier.
21:28 <hothraxxa> *facepalm*
21:28 <NeroOneTrueKing> with regards to crossbows, dnethack makes them do much more damage per shot but only ever fire 1 projectile. I think they get 3x enchantment and 3x skill bonus damage
21:28 <NeroOneTrueKing> *at expert
21:29 <Grasshopper> NeroOneTrueKing:  sounds appropriate
21:30 <Tangles> aosdict: I don't like to get too involved in these discussions, but I personally would prefer to live with a little suspension of disbelief for a good gaming experience. If you can make it realistic as well, all the better.
21:30 <aosdict> Yeah, crossbows are really powerful IRL compared to many other ranged weapons.
21:30 <jonadab> Hmm, I was thinking that galahs would work almost as well as gulls in that joke about the bioengineered dolphins, but then I realized that if you set the joke in Australia, the sleeping lions don't really work.
21:31 <Grasshopper> in defence of multishot - your attacks are meant to happen with an "abstract" turn  and involve a lot of melee - dodging attacks, crossing blades, exchanging pleasantries with your opponent, that kind of thing
21:31 <Grasshopper> but only one "attack"
21:31 <aosdict> NeroOneTrueKing: but then again, people were talking earlier about how dnh responds to overpowered stuff by buffing the other stuff
21:32 <Grasshopper> so for missle weapons, where you are not in "melee", it kind of makes sense that you get more attacks
21:32 <NeroOneTrueKing> aosdict: yes, there's an artifact crossbow that shoots twice as many bolts :)
21:32 <NeroOneTrueKing> and another one that doesn't get the bonus damage but shoots up to eight or nine bolts
21:32 <Grasshopper> BUT... maybe penalise players that try to use missile weapons in melee situations
21:33 <jonadab> aosdict: My understanding was that the real advantage of crossbows IRL was that they were easier to use, and easier to learn to use.
21:33 <hothraxxa> so in slex, praying doesn't remove the heavy iron ball
21:34 <jonadab> Same with the musket, which had worse range and accuracy than a longbow, but any raw recruit could be trained to use it.
21:34 <jonadab> (And that was fine, for volleys.)
21:34 <aosdict> I think that at long range, they aren't so great, but they're good at short range, punching through armor and stuff
21:35 <aosdict> Don't think this is distinct enough to add to nethack though.
21:35 <jonadab> Yeah.
21:35 <jonadab> Well, NetHack needs firearms about as much as it needs light sabres, IMO.
21:36 <aosdict> (I was referring to crossbows, not muskets)
21:36 <jonadab> Ah.
21:36 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) wished for "uncursed magic marker named the Rod of Lordly Might", on T:46864
21:37 <jonadab> And yeah, if you want to improve on the _range_ of a longbow, you want a compound bow (or a rifle).
21:39 <jonadab> If you want a faster repeat-fire rate, you want a short bow, or maybe a blowgun and darts.
21:39 <jonadab> (Or automatic firearms, obviously.)
21:40 <aosdict> obligatory yani: blowguns
21:43 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) performed the invocation, on T:46951
21:44 <jonadab> YASI: tasp.  ranged weapon, works on anything that's neither mindless nor immaterial.  Does no damage, but causes one turn of paralysis, and monsters that are hit with it repeatedly have a chance to be tamed.
21:45 <jonadab> It would have to be charged, obviously, or it'd be OP.
21:47 <jonadab> And, of course, to keep the monster tame you would have to continue to tasp it from time to time.
21:48 <aosdict> Ah. This is a good way to nerf twoweaponing.
21:48 <Beholder> [nd] Grasshopper (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:66801
21:48 <jonadab> ?
21:48 <Grasshopper> well, that was my wrest wish and it only took about 150 turns to squeeze it out
21:48 <Tarmunora_> !
21:49 <aosdict> We already have the "thrown weapons are almost useless without an empty hand" nerf, plus a spellcasting nerf that wielding weapons and having both hands occupied hurts spell success as well
21:49 <aosdict> Twoweaponing has basically no ranged options.
21:49 <Grasshopper> jonadab: as electro-shock thereapy, it should have a chance to cure hallucination and confusion as well
21:50 <aosdict> Short of stopping the twoweaponing to do one of those things, of course, but you shouldn't be doing that in the heat of battle
21:51 <Grasshopper> now we know why wizards don't two-weapon
21:51 <jonadab> aosdict: Hmm, that /might/ work.  I have to think about that.
21:52 <jonadab> Think through the implications.
21:53 <aosdict> Maybe wands' flawless accuracy regardless of how occupied your hands are has to be adjusted too
21:58 <Grasshopper> apply dex bonuses to the chance of wands hitting targets
21:58 <Grasshopper> and wands skill, as appropriate
21:59 <NeroOneTrueKing> do keep in mind that quarterstaves are two-handed weapons
22:00 <aosdict> NeroOneTrueKing: my initial thought on that matter was to give wizards a short staff, which is worse than a quarterstaff as a melee weapon but is one-handed and light enough not to inhibit spellcasting
22:00 <aosdict> seriously, quarterstaves are like 6-8 feet long, why are wizards walking around with those?
22:01 <K2> because gandalf thats why
22:01 <K2> AND big giants swords
22:01 <NeroOneTrueKing> who also twoweapons a quarterstaff and a giant sword
22:01 <Tarmunora_> Longsword
22:01 <K2> fuckin A right
22:01 <K2> FIQ: make FIQhack allow wizards to twoweapon like Gandalf did
22:01 <Tarmunora_> Gandalf is actually a fighter, not a wizard
22:02 <K2> um
22:02 <K2> pretty sure he's a wizard
22:02 <aosdict> istari
22:02 <Tarmunora_> https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3jpksw/gandalf_was_really_just_fighter_with_int18/
22:02 <aosdict> actually that's the plural but I have no idea what the singular is... istar?
22:02 <Tarmunora_> I mean, lore-wise he is a wizard
22:03 <Tarmunora_> But seriously, he doesn't do that much magic
22:03 <K2> reddit is fake news
22:03 <K2> gandalf is a wizard
22:04 <Tarmunora_> He does seem to prefer beating things to death than using magic though
22:05 <aosdict> there's that bit about how the Istari are not supposed to fight Sauron by force
22:05 <Tarmunora_> Like, what kind of wizard charges in to battle on horseback, while twoweaponing a two-handed staff AND a longsword
22:06 <K2> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandalf#Characteristics
22:06 <K2> from the author's own words
22:06 <K2> Gandalf = wizard
22:07 <K2> maybe he wanted some excitement
22:07 <K2> maybe it gets boring standing in the back casting spells all day
22:07 <Tarmunora_> Maybe he just got too high off of the pipeweed
22:07 <Tarmunora_> And forgot how to use magic
22:09 <dtype> or he's like old school D&D and gets like one high level spell a day
22:09 <aosdict> another thing to note: in Nethack, you cast spells by waving your arms around, and your quarterstaff is just a stick of wood. Gandalf cast spells *using* his staff.
22:10 -!- Jonathanhanes_ has joined #hardfought
22:10 -!- Webmant9 has joined #hardfought
22:10 <zombifier> real wizards don't need a crutch for spellcasting
22:10 <dtype> aosdict: maybe it is for effect. Like when you do "magic" as a kid by having your brother cause a distraction while you move the object
22:11 <dtype> is it clear that Gandalf *couldn't* do those spells without the staff?
22:11 <Tarmunora_> Stupid idea: modify FIQhack's spell quivering to only work with staffs, and make quarterstaffs  channel your quivered spell, making it stronger
22:11 -!- Menche has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:11 -!- Menche_ has joined #hardfought
22:11 <aosdict> yeah, my point is just that you somehow have to make the gestures while holding a heavy staff
22:11 <aosdict> which seems a little wrong
22:11 <Tarmunora_> All wizards carry big sticks
22:11 <dtype> or the work of a great wizard!
22:12 <NeroOneTrueKing> Tarmunora_: and speak softly?
22:12 <Grasshopper> When I was a kid, I made a Gandalf-like non-player character... and made him a fighter/mage
22:12 <Grasshopper> in D&D I mean, as D&D didn't allow wizards to use swords
22:12 <FIQ> hi
22:12 <Beholder> Hello FIQ, Welcome to #hardfought
22:13 <Grasshopper> but... Galdalf wielding both staff and sword at the same time is something I'm only familiar with from the movies
22:13 <Grasshopper> Gandalf
22:13 <Tarmunora_> That is likely true
22:14 <NeroOneTrueKing> here's a question for you FIQ: in fiqhack should I be able to get a helmet of reflection? The wiki page on object properties suggests otherwise.
22:14 <Grasshopper> wizards, as relatively "frail" dudes and dudettes, could be using a staff to help prop themselves up (like a walking stick)
22:15 <aosdict> Grasshopper: yes, I think wizards should literally get a walking stick
22:15 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: where does wiki claim this
22:15 <aosdict> you can beat things up with it a little, but you don't use it skillfully like a quarterstaff
22:15 <NeroOneTrueKing> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Object_properties
22:15 <FIQ> fiqhack doesn't prevent any armor from getting any property
22:15 <NeroOneTrueKing> Reflection: Grants reflection. Not applicable to projectile weapons, boots, gloves, or helmets.
22:15 <FIQ> er that's wrong
22:15 <FIQ> Ahh
22:15 <FIQ> I see
22:16 <FIQ> Yeah, FIQhack allows reflection on everything
22:16 <NeroOneTrueKing> there's no mention in the fiqhack section about it
22:16 <FIQ> Also I'm pretty sure you can have gloves of reflection in grunt
22:16 <FIQ> K2: ^
22:16 <FIQ> Er
22:16 <FIQ> Not everything
22:16 <FIQ> But every armor
22:16 <FIQ> And weapon
22:16 <FIQ> (that isn't a projectile weapon)
22:17 <K2> i dont think you can have gloves with reflection in grunt
22:17 <NeroOneTrueKing> the RNG hath repaid for it's drought of artifacts with a bounty of magical properties 
22:17 <Grasshopper> I'm actually pretty skilled with a staff (I practiced a lot as a kid), and would prefer a strong or even iron-shod staff to a sword 
22:18 <K2> i prefer my SigSaur 516
22:18 <K2> *SigSauer
22:18 <K2> gdammit
22:18 -!- Webmant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:18 -!- Jonathanhanes has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:18 <aosdict> yani: magical staffs that amplify a certain spell school when wielded
22:18 -!- Menche_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:18 -!- eady has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:18 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: have you been trying to get a gift *before* you decided to convert
22:19 <Tarmunora_> The SigSaur. Best/worst dinosaur ever
22:19 <FIQ> aosdict: those exist in spork
22:19 <NeroOneTrueKing> FIQ: before, on dlvl2 and after, on dlvl 20 or so
22:19 <K2> aosdict: those staves exist in sporkhack
22:19 <K2> for every spell school
22:19 <aosdict> K2: FIQ: I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of all variants, particularly ones I haven't played :P
22:19 <FIQ> K2 the Slowpoke
22:20 <K2> i am drinking
22:20 <K2> get offa me
22:20 <K2> :P
22:20 <Grasshopper> !booze K2
22:20 * Beholder hands K2 a tumbler of grappa, brewed by TheresaMayBot at 45 degrees Fahrenheit.
22:20 <K2> mmmmm
22:20 <K2> !rum Grasshopper
22:20 * Beholder pours Grasshopper a tall glass of spiced rum, brewed by Arsinoe at 403 Kelvin.
22:20 <Grasshopper> never argue with a drink
22:20 <Grasshopper> drunk
22:20 <K2> not drunk
22:20 <Grasshopper> drink drank drunk
22:20 <dtype> don't argue with a drink either
22:21 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: according to this thing, artifact count is zero
22:21 <FIQ> *artigift count
22:21 <Tarmunora_> Bad luck, I guess
22:21 <NeroOneTrueKing> I'm willing to accept terrible, terrible luck if someone else gets a gift
22:22 <Grasshopper> that's what bones are for
22:22 <FIQ> fun fact: it takes 30 seconds for NeroOneTrueKing's save to load so I can debug stuff
22:22 <FIQ> hooray NH4.3 saves
22:23 <Grasshopper> NH4.3 saves saves the day
22:24 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: bad
22:24 <FIQ> it took a while but I eventually got a RNG result that gives a gift
22:24 <FIQ> I didn't get shit
22:25 -!- greqrg has quit [Quit: Disconnected]
22:25 <NeroOneTrueKing> is it just my save? If so, that's fine, I'm on the ascension run anyways.
22:25 -!- Tangles_ has joined #hardfought
22:26 <FIQ> no
22:27 <FIQ> everyone is affected
22:27 <FIQ> basically it will only create artifacts that already exist
22:27 <FIQ> rather than the other way around
22:28 -!- Tangles has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:28 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed a fix
22:28 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
22:28 -!- Menche has joined #hardfought
22:33 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: the mirror only grants double damage to knights
22:33 <NeroOneTrueKing> oops, oh well
22:33 <FIQ> also not sure if you noticed
22:33 <FIQ> but the explosions are gone
22:34 <FIQ> also, castalias is a thing you can map keys to
22:34 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) wished for "uncursed magic marker named the Garnet Rod", on T:49067
22:35 <FIQ> garnet rod is how I died on astral 1 step from coaligned altar before my first dnh asc
22:35 <loli> time to learn how to remove boulders
22:35 <Tarmunora_> Ouch
22:35 <Tarmunora_> Didn't drink a potion of acid?
22:37 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) reached the Plane of Earth, on T:49070
22:38 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: sorry for non-intuitive UI
22:39 <FIQ> didn't figure out a sane way to do it
22:39 <NeroOneTrueKing> I think it would be good if there was a way to see what aliases have been set
22:39 <FIQ> um... there is
22:39 <FIQ> +
22:39 <FIQ> read the top line in that window
22:40 <NeroOneTrueKing> ah okay, it says what it's been set to in the main message box
22:40 <FIQ> Your magical abilities (*: forgotten, #: aliased)
22:41 <NeroOneTrueKing> or wait hold on, it isn't. just that I set 'I' to castalias identify
22:41 -!- Jonathanhanes has joined #hardfought
22:42 <NeroOneTrueKing> I mean as a way to see that I have linked ctrl-I to cast identify andor vice versa, for example
22:42 <FIQ> ah
22:43 <loli> my vampire lord is going to starve to death :(
22:43 <FIQ> no
22:43 <NeroOneTrueKing> that would be a lot tricker, I'd imagine
22:44 <FIQ> not really
22:44 -!- Jonathanhanes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
22:46 -!- Tangles_ is now known as Tangles
22:47 <FIQ> hm
22:47 <FIQ> perhaps
22:49 <FIQ> because proper key names isn't exposed to the engine
22:58 <NeroOneTrueKing> okay I'm running into a problem here
22:59 <loli> aosdict: "Scroll identification only works 100 times out of 184." it seems to be different for every game
22:59 <NeroOneTrueKing> I'm getting spammed with "You'd better wait for the sun to come out."
23:00 <NeroOneTrueKing> Invalid location for monster-usage of position spell?
23:00 <NeroOneTrueKing> spell.c/1477
23:00 <NeroOneTrueKing> FIQ: ^
23:02 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) reached the Astral Plane, on T:49523
23:04 <FIQ> a monster is trying to cast fireball/cone of cold in plane of water
23:04 <K2> go NeroOneTrueKing!
23:04 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-08-10 22:28 EDT: pushed a fix
23:05 <K2> what did ya fix
23:05 <FIQ> fixed artifact creation bug
23:06 <K2> updated
23:08 <aosdict> no K2, you have to say "FIQhack updated" so I can grep for it and count the number of times you've said that exact message
23:08 <K2> FIQhack updated
23:08 <K2> nerd
23:08 <aosdict> yay
23:08 <K2> :P
23:09 <K2> way back when, when i was hosting FPS type games, there was a regular named oreo, who was a decent player and a talented scripter
23:09 <K2> he wrote a script that tracked how many times i said 'heh'
23:10 <K2> apparently it was a significant percentage of what i said in the channel
23:10 <K2> heh
23:10 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Blo Ang Fem Cha), 29869 points, T:6899, killed by a cowardly attack on her breasts
23:10 <aosdict> what?
23:11 <K2> FIQ: I killed Croesus. why doesnt FIQhack livelog that
23:11 <NeroOneTrueKing> I just killed death with a wand of death
23:11 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: is this ok?
23:11 <FIQ> F - finger of death 7 #:Ctrl-I attack      0%   86%
23:11 <NeroOneTrueKing> that would be great
23:12 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) were saved from death by your amulet of life saving!, on T:49709
23:12 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: pushed
23:13 <FIQ> !tell K2 pushed
23:13 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
23:13 <K2> wait, what did you just push
23:13 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-08-10 23:13 EDT: pushed
23:13 <K2> and i'm right here
23:13 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) were saved from death by your amulet of life saving!, on T:49724
23:14 <aosdict> the grammar, it hurts
23:14 <FIQ> K2: it should
23:14 <FIQ> @ livelogging croesus
23:14 <FIQ> K2: I added this: Add showing of key name to spell list
23:14 <aosdict> FIQhack has one of the fastest release cycles I've ever seen
23:15 <K2> FIQ: at some point you should incorporate the livelogging Tangles did for dev
23:15 <Chris_ANG> Hm.  aosdict: Something to consider is that vanilla assumes that a two-handed weapon effectively leaves a hand free, as long as it's not cursed.
23:15 <FIQ> aosdict: people ask for features
23:16 <FIQ> I don't see why not
23:16 <FIQ> so I add it
23:16 <aosdict> Chris_ANG: are you reading backscroll or the wiki page?
23:16 <FIQ> for this particular case, anything to make castalias more intuitive to use
23:16 <FIQ> because it's awkward atm
23:16 <Chris_ANG> wiki page
23:16 <Chris_ANG> did someone already bring that up upchannel?
23:16 <aosdict> No
23:17 <aosdict> Anyway, I was not going to make it as much of a punishment as shields, but still in the same ballpark.
23:18 <aosdict> After all, if you transferred it to one hand to make gestures, the other hand is still holding a heavy weapon
23:18 <K2> aosdict: it almost spunds as if you're devloping your own variant ;)
23:18 <aosdict> which is not so different from one hand holding a heavy shield
23:18 <K2> *sounds
23:18 <K2> Balancehack
23:18 <aosdict> K2: it might happen, it might not. I've mentioned it a couple times
23:19 <aosdict> I don't think I'm interested in making a "full" variant though
23:19 <aosdict> as I've said, I'd like to test balance changes and things on a base of 3.6 and then reset everything to test a different change
23:19 <Chris_ANG> This combat system is radical enough that if you implement it, you'll have a full variant :P
23:19 <Chris_ANG> Not that that's a reason not to implement it.
23:20 <aosdict> Oh yes, I would not be starting with this.
23:20 <aosdict> But a lot of stuff in the balance issue list hinges on combat, and I've also kind of been sidetracked by saying "combat system is kind of bad, what if I threw it all out and started over"
23:21 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law) were saved from death by your amulet of life saving!, on T:49781
23:22 <aosdict> Chris_ANG: writing more on the damage reduction formula now, it's probably the last major piece of the system, after that it should mostly be tweaking
23:23 <Beholder> [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Law), 242850 points, T:49801, ascended
https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/N/NeroOneTrueKing/fiqhack/dumplog/2017-08-11%2003%3A23%3A44%2C%20NeroOneTrueKing-Wiz-Elf-Fem-Law%2C%20ascended.txt
23:23 <Tarmunora_> Congrats NeroOneTrueKing
23:24 <aosdict> congrats NeroOneTrueKing!
23:24 <Chris_ANG> congrats :)
23:24 <NeroOneTrueKing> thanks all
23:24 <Tangles> Congrats Nero!
23:25 <NeroOneTrueKing> and I thought that I was over-preparing. Nope, needed all those potions of full healing because tag-team riders are *nasty*. 
23:26 <K2> woooo!
23:26 <K2> congrats NeroOneTrueKing!
23:28 <NeroOneTrueKing> thanks K2
23:30 <Grasshopper> grats NeroOneTrueKing!
23:31 <FIQ> K2: sorry
23:31 <FIQ> fixed grammar of some livelog stuff
23:32 <K2> just now?
23:32 <FIQ> and changed some to be similar to other variants
23:32 <FIQ> yes
23:37 <aosdict> oof, all this writing has wiped me out
23:37 <K2> FIQhack updated
23:38 <FIQ> aosdict: what if the monsters that ignore E
23:38 <FIQ> coincide with the ones ignoring conflict
23:39 -!- Tarmunora has joined #hardfought
23:39 <aosdict> this suggestion is apropos of what?
23:39 <FIQ> slight change of
23:39 <FIQ> >Idea #4: conflict works as usual, but doesn't affect @ or A at all.
23:40 <FIQ> also
23:40 <FIQ> "Protection wears off way too fast to be any use in combat."
23:40 <Grasshopper> "Bleech! Rotten food! Everything goes dark. You feel strong!"
23:40 <FIQ> this is not true
23:40 * Grasshopper feels confused
23:40 <FIQ> protection is overpowered
23:40 <FIQ> but the fact that it is a huge pain to keep up
23:40 <FIQ> nobody bothers with it
23:41 <aosdict> okay, will probably get to it tomorrow. I'm going to sleep
23:41 <aosdict> if you're reading the balance issues page, feel free to put comments on the talk page :)
23:41 <FIQ> Idea #4: Attribute loss from abuse is a permanent loss.
23:41 <FIQ> dnethack does this
23:41 * Grasshopper attempts to read a spellbook - cannot because I am blind
23:41 <FIQ> ok
23:42 <Grasshopper> with spectacles on
23:42 <aosdict> that will help a lot more than me having to search through irc to make sure I didn't forget everything
23:42 <aosdict> thanks
23:42 -!- Tarmunora_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:42 <Grasshopper> I feel like Nick Fury
23:43 <K2> FIQ: sporkhack does it also
23:43 <K2> unihorn wont restore
23:44 <NeroOneTrueKing> dnethack has 2 things on attribute loss:
23:44 <NeroOneTrueKing> 1) unicorn horn won't restore any lost ability score
23:44 <NeroOneTrueKing> 2) ability score lost to abuse can't be regained by any "restore ability" -- potions or spells
23:46 <K2> or exercise
23:46 <K2> same as spork
23:46 <K2> err
23:47 <K2> i read that as can not cant
23:47 <K2> in spork a !oRA will work
23:47 <K2> or the spell
23:47 <K2> which makes them more valuable and actually worth keeping around
23:48 <aosdict> amy HATES that abuse=permaloss thing
23:48 <FIQ> K2: not the same thing
23:48 <FIQ> in dnethack, losing an attribute point from abuse is permanent
23:48 <FIQ> as in, can't even restore with !oRA
23:49 <K2> yeah i gathered that from NeroOneTrueKing statement
23:50 <Tarmunora> The moment you have a dozen health potions, some gain energy, and some holy water though, you can just !oGA your way to max stats
23:51 <K2> doh
23:51 <K2> i just drown the oracle
23:52 <Tarmunora> This isn't ToME. Drowning the friendly NPCs is not a valid tactic
23:53 <Grasshopper> K2: congrats
23:53 <K2> heh
23:54 <Grasshopper> If I was there I could have saved him as I'm a trained lifesaver (water) 
23:54 <Grasshopper> but alas, NHINRL
23:55 <FIQ> K2: Please do not engage in murder of peaceful creatures
23:56 <K2> oracle should have moved his slow ass
23:56 <K2> i'm dipping
23:56 <K2> he's the oracle, supposed to be all powerful
23:57 <K2> RIP
23:58 <FIQ> oracle is a she
23:59 <K2> how dare you assume its gender identity
23:59 <K2> it could self gender ID as a proto male demi succubus for all you know
00:00 <K2> SHAME
00:00 <FIQ> I need to handle corrupted saves more gracefully
00:00 <FIQ> I have one on hdf, haven't told K2 to remove it so it can be there and remind me to fix stuff
00:00 <K2> FYI you can set your gender on facebook to custom and put in anything you want
00:01 <FIQ> that has been a feature for like
00:01 <FIQ> 2 days
00:01 <K2> earlier today i set mine as 'toaster oven'
00:01 <K2> hothraxxa (if he uses the book of face) will prob set his as 'meat popsicle'
00:02 <K2> do you use facebook FIQ?
00:02 <FIQ> I have a facebook account
00:02 <FIQ> I hardly ever use it
00:02 <K2> hah
00:02 <K2> lies
00:03 <FIQ> you have my realname
00:03 <K2> i do
00:03 <FIQ> you can look at my profile
00:03 <FIQ> and my amazing activity
00:03 <K2> i havent
00:05 <K2> oh gdamn
00:05 <K2> there's more than one of you
00:05 <K2> you're prob the one labelled as 'single'
00:06 <FIQ> savage
00:06 <K2> :P
00:06 <K2> or the one who's married to jenny and listens to quiet riot
00:06 <FIQ> lol
00:06 <FIQ> you have my age too
00:07 <K2> seriously... theres a million of you, exact name
00:08 <FIQ> just try some at random
00:08 <K2> actually only 18
00:08 <FIQ> i have no image
00:08 <K2> hah yeah i should add all 18 as a friend
00:08 <FIQ> :P
00:08 <K2> 3 without profile pic
00:08 <FIQ> see
00:08 <FIQ> progress
00:08 <K2> KTH Royal Institute of Technology ?
00:09 <FIQ> yes
00:09 <FIQ> apparently I am #9
00:09 <FIQ> of the ones with my name
00:09 <K2> you were #18 on my listing
00:09 <FIQ> lol
00:10 <K2> hmm so
00:11 <K2> i dont see you as the type to have anything on fb public facing to non friends
00:11 <FIQ> I don't have jack shit on my facebook
00:11 <FIQ> I told you :P
00:11 <K2> well ffs
00:11 <FIQ> at most you can find my rl friends
00:11 <K2> https://www.facebook.com/keith.simpson1971 - that's me
00:11 <K2> add me if you want
00:13 <FIQ> I can't follow links to desktop facebook on my OP
00:13 <FIQ> it would probably melt
00:13 <K2> :/
00:14 <FIQ> ok I found you I think
00:15 <K2> heh
00:15 <K2> got it
00:15 <K2> yeah you were #18
00:16 <FIQ> oh no, now you can see all my facebook events
00:16 <K2> lol
00:16 <FIQ> because I have so many of them
00:16 <K2> i dont post often
00:16 <K2> my wife posts a dozen times a day
00:16 <FIQ> heh
00:17 <K2> wow zero photos
00:17 <K2> thats a first
00:17 <FIQ> told you
00:17 <FIQ> I hardly ever use it
00:17 <FIQ> I only made it in first place to get in touch with classmates during highschool
00:17 <K2> ^ that
00:18 <K2> wife made me get on it back in 2007 right before my last deployment
00:18 <FIQ> because they insisted on facebook as a general "post class info stuff" thing
00:18 <K2> and its good for reunion planning
00:18 <FIQ> mhm
00:19 <FIQ> if you search hard enough, you can find indirect photos of me
00:19 <FIQ> but I don't have any of my own
00:19 <K2> and its actually very good for sharing pics of the kid with family
00:20 <K2> grandparents eat that shit up
00:20 <FIQ> mhm
00:26 <K2> searching in FIQhack is insane
00:26 <K2> i'm finding stuff 3 squares away
00:27 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Ana Dro Fem Cha) entered Minetown for the first time, on T:1191
00:27 <FIQ> yes
00:27 <FIQ> in fiqhack, searching is good
00:27 <FIQ> removes the tedium of searching in nethack
00:28 <FIQ> and K2 
00:28 <K2> ah crap
00:28 <FIQ> only 1 s needed
00:28 <FIQ> to find stuff next to you
00:28 <FIQ> press P
00:28 <FIQ> and tell turncount
00:28 <K2> save file corrupted
00:28 <FIQ> 17201
00:28 <FIQ> press P
00:28 <FIQ> it's safe
00:28 <K2> i was eating while standing onco aligned altar while priest was casting spells on itself
00:29 <FIQ> that is a minor issue
00:29 <K2>  Error: save_mon: muxy and mxy are equal?                                  │
00:29 <K2> Location: libnethack/src/makemon.c:2430                                   │
00:29 <K2> Game ID: K2_1502312442 
00:29 <FIQ> caused by ais being silly
00:29 <FIQ> yes
00:29 <FIQ> I am seeing it
00:29 <K2> ok
00:29 <FIQ> it's caused by several bugs in different places
00:29 <K2> ok
00:29 <K2> huh
00:29 <FIQ> that's why the error keeps showing u
00:29 <FIQ> p
00:29 <FIQ> it's much more common in nethack4
00:30 <FIQ> slightly less common in 4k
00:30 <FIQ> and fairly uncommon in fiqhack
00:32 <K2> so genociding in fiqhack - anything special i need be aware of? or is it pretty much like vanilla
00:32 <FIQ> NeroOneTrueKing: how was planes an sanctum?
00:32 <FIQ> like vanilla
00:32 <K2> ok
00:32 <K2> buh bye L
00:32 <FIQ> rip
00:32 <NeroOneTrueKing> sanctum was easy-breezy
00:32 <NeroOneTrueKing> since I felt like I overprepared
00:32 <FIQ> ok
00:33 <NeroOneTrueKing> I didn't use any full healing, my power pool was sufficient, etc etc
00:33 <FIQ> yea
00:33 <FIQ> h
00:33 <NeroOneTrueKing> Astral plane, on the other hand, was nuts.
00:33 <FIQ> what happened
00:33 <NeroOneTrueKing> got stuck beside Death and Pestilence
00:33 <FIQ> ouch
00:34 <FIQ> that's not a predicament you want yourself in
00:34 <NeroOneTrueKing> no siree.
00:34 <K2> i've died on astral before because of being dbl teamed by riders
00:34 <K2> almost happened to me on my spork asc
00:35 <NeroOneTrueKing> It was impossible to cut a path through the enemies to get away from the riders
00:35 <NeroOneTrueKing> So I used a magic harp to tame stuff so I could put my new pets between me and the riders and get closer to the next altar
00:35 <FIQ> remember that monsters can zap each other with buffs
00:36 <FIQ> so if someone spawns with speed monster
00:36 <FIQ> they can haste themselves and others
00:36 <FIQ> and monsters can be very fast in fiqhack
00:36 <FIQ> so yeah
00:36 <K2> purple rain baby
00:36 <K2> purple rain
00:36 <NeroOneTrueKing> Are there any protections against being slowed?
00:36 <NeroOneTrueKing> I was a combination of slowed, stunned, and ill most of the time while in my predicament.
00:42 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Cav Dwa Mal Law) became literate by reading the fortune inside a cookie, on T:3873
00:42 <FIQ> no cure for slowness
00:42 <FIQ> at all
00:43 <FIQ> only way is to wait it out
00:44 <K2> couldnt you zap yourself with a wand of speed monster?
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00:46 <NeroOneTrueKing> tried, but it did nothing
00:46 <NeroOneTrueKing> and there are so many spellcasters, ugh
00:46 <NeroOneTrueKing> it's one thing in vanilla that the priest summon tons of insects
00:47 <NeroOneTrueKing> those can be killed by a couple swings of Excalibur or a blast of magic missiles
00:47 <NeroOneTrueKing> less so when those priests are summoning dragons
00:48 <K2> hah damn
00:48 <K2> charm monster is your friend
00:49 <K2> i am playing a monk in FIQhack right now, i have that spellbook
00:49 <K2> time to go read it
00:49 <NeroOneTrueKing> it only takes a couple priests with "summon nasty" to fill a room with more hp than you can kill with a sword
00:49 <K2> hmm question
00:49 <K2> i also have the spellbook 'summon nasty'
00:49 <K2> if i use it, will those basties be tame to me?
00:49 <K2> nasties
00:50 <NeroOneTrueKing> they will be tame
00:51 <NeroOneTrueKing> but it only summons a few.
00:51 <K2> thats ok
00:51 <K2> few is better than one (create familiar)
00:51 <NeroOneTrueKing> yes, and they are generally better, too
01:06 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
01:07 <Beholder> [dnh] Tarmunora (Ana Dro Fem Cha), 7074 points, T:3207, killed by a blast of frost
01:09 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Cav Dwa Mal Law), 3272 points, T:5134, killed by a gray unicorn
01:09 <Jonathanhanes> !role
01:09 <Beholder> Jonathanhanes: nhdev valkyrie
01:13 <Chris_ANG> K2: I pushed a bug fix for dnh.  I had a mistake in one of the .des files :/
01:14 <K2> ok
01:14 <K2> dNetHack updated
01:14 <Chris_ANG> thanks :)
01:14 <K2> yw ;)
01:17 <K2> die deerfly DIE
01:18 <Tarmunora> !rng Premium Heart | Shambhala
01:18 <Beholder> Tarmunora: Premium Heart
01:18 * K2 has a bug wand zapper
01:25 <bug_sniper> k2, how is it?
01:25 <K2> how is what?
01:25 <bug_sniper> that wand
01:26 -!- Tomthetom00 has joined #hardfought
01:26 <K2> oh man
01:26 <K2> you can pick them up for under 10 bucks at walmart
01:26 <K2> look like a tennis racket
01:27 <K2> zapzapzap
01:27 <K2> nice loud pop when you zap a bug
01:27 <bug_sniper> they are a nice idea
01:27 <K2> do it long enough you can smell the smoke
01:27 <bug_sniper> but it's hard to actually kill the fruit flies I would need that for
01:27 <K2> been using these in the field for last 3 yrs now, wont go with out them
01:27 * K2 is skilled in bug zap wands
01:28 <K2> i can zap anything
01:28 <K2> fruit flies are a different deal
01:28 <K2> best way to get those, setup those little traps with vinegar
01:29 -!- Tomthetom has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
01:30 <K2> bug_sniper get these - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LBN928K/
01:30 <K2> work like a charm
01:30 <bug_sniper> sure, next time I have them
01:30 <Tomthetom00> !who
01:30 <Beholder> Tomthetom00: Tarmunora [dnh] dolores [slex] k2 [fh] jonathanhanes [nd] 
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01:39 <K2> "This is terrible, K2.  You have deviated from the true path! You know that 
01:39 <K2> Chih Sung-tzu requires the most strident devotion of this order.  The brotherhood must stand for utmost piety.
01:39 <K2> "Go from here, atone for your sins against Chih Sung-tzu.  Return only when you have purified yourself." 
01:39 <K2> wtf FIQ
01:39 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Val Dwa Fem Law) rejected atheism by offering a gecko corpse on an altar of Moloch, on T:3619
01:41 <NeroOneTrueKing> yeah any alignment penalty things set your alignment to 0 and then do the penalty
01:41 <NeroOneTrueKing> so you have negative alignment for a time after being a bad person
01:42 <Chris_ANG> K2: ...rushed out another bugfix.  Turns out I also broke artifact wishing.
01:42 <K2> heh
01:42 <K2> dNetHack updated
01:43 <K2> NeroOneTrueKing I have no idea what I did to be bad
01:43 <NeroOneTrueKing> ate meat?
01:43 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:3704
01:43 <K2> and i'm neutral
01:43 <K2> no i havent
01:43 <Chris_ANG> Thanks again
01:43 <K2> np
01:44 <K2> love my server, pretty speedy
01:44 <K2> longest compile i've ever seen was slex from scrtach took about 5 min
01:44 <K2> maybe 6
01:45 <K2> how am i gonna fix my alignment
01:45 <K2> hmm
01:45 <K2> and i dont have any means of enlightenment either
01:46 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Val Dwa Fem Law) became literate by reading a scroll, on T:3769
01:46 <NeroOneTrueKing> kill things, I suppose
01:46 <NeroOneTrueKing> or find a neutral altar and do some sacrificing
01:46 <K2> i am doing just that luckily there's a temple with co-aligned priest on same level as quest portal
01:47 <K2> i required unicorns
01:47 <K2> require
01:47 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:49 <K2> hmm
01:49 <K2> i am devoutly neutral
01:50 <Tangles> I think you need to be pious for the quest.
01:50 <Tangles> in vanilla rules, at least.
01:50 <NeroOneTrueKing> past turn 2000, right?
01:50 <K2> way past
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01:54 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Ble Ang Fem Cha), 3077 points, T:1530, killed by a monster (hallucinogen-distorted kickboxing girl)
01:55 <K2> ok i need to kill some stuff
01:55 <K2> and pray
01:55 <K2> and find unicorns
01:57 <K2> oh look a black unicorn
01:57 <K2> oh look i am pious now
01:57 <K2> \o/
01:58 <Tangles> Kaen is trembling in his boots.
01:59 <K2> he better be
02:02 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Val Dwa Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:5124
02:04 <Tomthetom00> !whereis K2
02:04 <Beholder> Tomthetom00: k2 [fh]: No details available
02:04 <Tomthetom00> aww
02:04 <K2> fiqhack does not have whereis
02:04 * K2 looks at FIQ
02:06 * Tomthetom00 looks at FIQ
02:14 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Val Dwa Fem Law) averted death, on T:6268
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02:20 <K2> buh bye master kaen
02:21 <Tangles> :D
02:26 <Beholder> [nd] jonathanhanes (Val Dwa Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:7447
02:30 -!- Tomthetom00 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
02:33 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Fai Ang Fem Cha), 14218 points, T:3020, killed by a monster (statue golem)
02:36 <Beholder> [fh] K2 (k2) (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed the ghost of noty, the former Reconnoiterer, on T:21323
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03:01 <LarienTelrunya> !role slex
03:01 <Beholder> LarienTelrunya: Message from FIQ at 2017-08-10 10:07 EDT: castalias is a bit awkward to use, but it's "hidden" behind keymap config so it's OK
03:01 <Beholder> LarienTelrunya: No variant slex on server.
03:01 <K2> we havent updated beholder yet it
03:01 <K2> that will be a tall order
03:08 <K2> but at least we have the data needed
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03:23 <LarienTelrunya> K2: wow you're saying hothraxxa is close to ascending slex?! I'd have given the crown of "best-performing still active slex player" to bug_sniper myself, but maybe there's something I don't know yet? how far did he get?
03:24 <K2> no i didnt say that
03:24 <LarienTelrunya> hmm, so what did "20:27 <K2> right now, i think hothraxxa prob has the best shot at ascending slex out of ppl i know that arent amy" mean?
03:24 <K2> just out of ppl here i know and how they play, i was thinking he had best shot
03:24 <K2> best shot != close
03:24 <LarienTelrunya> ah, okay
03:25 <K2> best shot == best chance
03:25 <LarienTelrunya> just sounded to me like he had gotten really far and I somehow missed it
03:25 <K2> but i've never seen bug_sniper play slex
03:25 <LarienTelrunya> well bug_sniper got halfway through Gehennom in junethack, and I started to believe he might make it but then he died :(
03:26 <K2> wow
03:26 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Trs Spe Fem Cha) killed Raini, on T:1629
03:29 <Beholder> [slex] dolores (Trs Spe Fem Cha), 10598 points, T:1777, killed by a cowardly attack on her breasts
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03:54 <Beholder> [fh] K2 (k2) (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "2 blessed scrolls of charging", on T:24373
04:00 <LarienTelrunya> Evil Patch idea: using a scroll of identify on an item has a chance of cursing it, reducing its enchantment, or transforming the useful base item it used to be into a crappy one (speed boots -> fumble boots, for example).
04:02 -!- elenmirie has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
04:06 <Beholder> [fh] K2 (k2) (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed greased +5 helm of brilliance", on T:24673
04:07 <LarienTelrunya> jonadab: I saw the log mentioning elder priests and me getting annoyed about "my standard strategy not working" :D you want to know the real reason? I absolutely wanted to get those trophies in junethack, and evil features in certain variants preventing me from getting them got me annoyed. But if I were playing non-slex variants outside of junethack, those difficult ones (fourk, grunt, dnh) would be the *only* ones I'd pl
04:07 <Beholder> [fh] K2 (k2) (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed +5 t-shirt", on T:24674
04:07 <LarienTelrunya> so while on one hand I got really annoyed at the (fake?) difficulty in those variants, on another hand I actually appreciate it
04:09 <LarienTelrunya> aosdict: you wondered whether I encountered Cthulhu in unnethack? well, I did the entire ascension run not knowing what ANY level or item was, nuff said :P
04:10 <Beholder> [fh] K2 (k2) (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed fixed ring of free action", on T:24682
04:13 <Beholder> [fh] K2 (k2) (Mon Hum Mal Neu) wished for "uncursed fixed magic marker", on T:24754