10:37 yani: potion of training. Gives you a temporary experience point multiplier. 10:40 yani: armor of training, gives you a small but perpetual experience point multiplier 10:46 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 10:46 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 10:47 Potion of training should probably be for the next N monsters killed, not for a number of turns 11:10 yani: instead of amnesia making you forget your discoveries and levels, it makes you forget your skills and drains skill points. 11:20 EPI: the number of discoveries you can remember is limited by your int and if you discover too many things, you forget your earliest discoveries 11:37 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 11:44 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:52 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Raisse suddenly disappears!] 11:52 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 11:52 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 11:58 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:02 FIQ, what do I need to do in my FIQhack options to get alt- commands working? I've tried using the '&' command to see what alt- is being interpreted as, but the box just disappears without telling me anything. 12:03 NeroOneTrueKing: disable alt_is_esc 12:03 Thank you 12:08 [nd] Caveman (Val Hum Fem Law), 1192 points, T:2161, killed by a little dog 12:26 -!- Tarmunora has joined #hardfought 12:27 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 12:28 FIQ: when you say energy regeneration is x/60 per turn, is it randomized (x/60 chance of +1 on each turn), or is it incrementing an actual fractional quantity of energy? 12:30 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 12:30 aosdict: dnethack and fiqhack works differently in that regard 12:30 in fiqhack, it's "fractional" in the sense that the pw is distributed evenly across 100 turns 12:30 in dnethack, it's distributed in bulk as to not end up with any fractions the first few turns every 30 turns 12:31 for example, if you have a pw regen factor of 10 in dnethack, you'll get 1 pw per turn for 10 turns, then nothing for 20 12:31 in fiqhack you'll get 1 pw every 30 turns 12:31 err, every 3 turns 12:32 however I think Chris_ANG mostly did it that way because it was simpler to implement, not because he prefers it over distributing it evenly 12:32 @dnethack 12:34 aosdict: I didn't consider this detail worthwhile to mention 12:34 since I figured it was implementation detail more than anything 12:36 It's fractional in dnh, but the math is confusing me while attempting to explain it XD 12:37 It does the modulo of the regen rate, times the current move, then divides by thirty, 12:37 then compairs that value to what it was last turn, and if it's now more gives you 1 power. 12:43 * aosdict squints at Chris_ANG's comment about how a gaussian distribution is more difficult to understand 12:43 :P 12:44 Chris_ANG: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User_talk:Phol_ende_wodan/Balance_issues#Energy_regeneration 12:46 Chris_ANG: if you want it to be distributed more evenly, you can look at https://github.com/FredrIQ/fiqhack/blob/master/libnethack/src/monmove.c#L115 12:46 it's just math, nothing fiqhack-specific in there at all 12:48 FIQ, it is rather evenly distributed, if by that you mean that the points of energy are given at a constant 1-every-few-turns rate 12:49 //recover 1/30th energy per turn: 12:49 u.uen += reglevel/30; 12:49 //Now deal with any remainder 12:49 if(((moves)*(reglevel%30))/30 > ((moves-1)*(reglevel%30))/30) u.uen += 1; 12:49 Doesn't this make it so that it recovers unevenly the first few turns? 12:50 hmmm 12:50 I just tested it in python, with 13/30 pw per turn regeneration. It gives 1 every 2-3 turns 12:50 Ahh 12:50 So I was mistaken 12:51 aosdict: It's named after a famous mathematician. That automatically makes some people go "Noooou, hhaaaaaarrrrd, braaaaiiin huuuuurrrrrrrrrrttzz." 12:51 (Gaussian distribution, that is.) 12:53 Yeah, but it's like the best known distribution 12:53 Besides uniform, of course. 12:54 It's like saying that something is based on "Newtonian physics". Makes people go "Ouch" in their head, even though "Newtonian physics" is basically just another way of saying "how you normally expect junk to work in the real world if you don't spend all day every day watching movies." 12:55 I mean, 12:55 ok, with a Gausian most of the probability density is in the center of the distribution, 12:56 which means that, 12:56 if your game system is based on a default hit/miss rate of 50/50, 12:56 that small bonuses to AC will be *more* valuable to the player than in a d20 based system. 12:57 Is that what you want? I'm unclear. 12:57 *er, 'that means small' 12:58 It does naturally cause some amount of diminishing returns. I was envisioning standard deviation being very large, though, so the bell curve is fairly wide 12:59 (And I see diminishing returns as a good thing, too) 13:01 In a d20 based system bonuses can keep stacking until they'd naturally make you invincible, so you have to kludge by saying "okay, your AC over 10 is a die roll, not its actual value" 13:03 hmm, idea to nerf shields somewhat: if you are facing threats from multiple directions, you have a chance of your shield not counting at all 13:04 because if two enemies are on opposite sides of you, you can't use your shield on both 13:04 Remember that shields have to compete against two-weapon combat. 13:04 shields should count for more AC then, at least in the direction they are used 13:04 or possibly just a flat penalty for being surrounded, like with D&D and combat advantage (that I remember) 13:05 EPI: switching the direction in which you face costs turns, and you need to face a direction before being able to move into it. Attacking into a direction you're not facing gives to-hit penalties since you can't very well see what you're attacking, especially if the monster is behind you. :) 13:05 Many d20 systems deal with that possiblility by just saying that the best-possible roll is always a hit (either 1 or 20 depending on system) 13:06 Which means there is always at least a 5% chance of an attack working. 13:06 D&D has always had penalties/bonuses for attacks from behind 13:06 just many DMs forgot to implement them 13:06 Typically for being flanked? 13:06 and NH, which has no facing as such 13:06 Yes, but "invincible 95% of the time" is not much different from "invincible 100% of the time" 13:06 3rd through 5th don't do facing. 13:06 Grasshopper_: right, I don't think facing directions are a good idea. 13:07 Just being hemmed in by monsters means that you are covering more sides so they have a bonus against you 13:07 Chris_ANG, yes as in side-opponents get maybe +1 and rear attackers get +2. Or maybe more I can't remember (thieves get +4 from behind) 13:08 +4 to hit and double or more damage 13:08 oh, and shield bonuses should be negated when you're helpless, like sleeping or paralyzed. 13:08 aosdict: ...how wide are you thinking of making that Gaussian? There is not a lot of probability in those tails. 13:08 indeed, much of your AC should be negated 13:09 but NHINRL and is not D&D either lol 13:09 Chris_ANG: that really depends on what a reasonable bonus or penalty is expected to be 13:10 so I want to work out the bonus and penalty balance first 13:11 (even a uniform distribution would need to wait for that before seeing what die size it should use) 13:12 I ...moderatly disagree? 13:13 What hit/miss %s are you working towards? 13:14 Chris_ANG: why does Kostchtchie have so much AC? :D 13:15 A decently armored, Basic shield player in the midgame (in the Quest, for instance) should be hitting about 70-80% of the time versus monsters of appropriate difficulty (like Olog-hai). 13:16 aosdict: wait, should be hitting, or should be hit? 13:16 should be hitting. 13:17 In the late game, probably around 90% 13:18 or possibly 100%, but some monsters (such as dragons) have a chance of tanking your hit so you don't do much damage. 13:18 LarienTelrunya: What do you mean? He should have around -15? 13:18 -13, and my XL17 clockwork lunatic was having trouble hitting him :D 13:19 speaking of which, this goes to show that slex seems to have achieved what is being discussed here, namely making the player character not hit everything 100% of the time later on! 13:21 the change that luck only adds d(Luck) coupled with toning down the bonus you get from XL, and monsters with AC values better than -10, are apparently enough to ensure less than 100% to-hit for a well-equipped char 13:21 Late game monsters should definitely have a chance to take what would be a clean hit and reduce or eliminate its harm to them. That, I think, is what will make it palatable to people used to hitting 100% of the time. 13:21 dnh went the "increase typical AC" route for the late game, -13 is typical for a demon of his rank. 13:22 Well, actually it's a bit low for a demon of his rank. 13:22 "The priest of Moloch parries your blow with his shield!", for example - no damage done, but the player knows he WOULD have scored a clean hit 13:22 aosdict: If players want to hit all the time, they can use something with a to-hit bonus that they can get expert in, and not try to wield a second weapon in the off hand, not wear body armor as a Monk, etc. 13:23 I don't mind if it's possible to get close to 100% hit rate. It just shouldn't be a foregone conclusion regardless of choices made. 13:23 There should be trade-offs. 13:24 Also, rings of increase accuracy should probably give a more significant bonus than they do. 13:24 Otherwise there's no point wearing them. 13:24 or, those small bonuses will be more meaningful after the changes 13:24 jonadab: interestingly I was going to not change rings of increase accuracy at all, because +3 to hit in this system is more significant than +3 in the old system 13:25 but balance adjustments might happen to it anyway 13:26 as Chris_ANG pointed out, if you're in the middle of the bell curve and equally matched to your opponent, even +1 is decent 13:30 aosdict: Hmm. 13:30 Maybe. 13:30 All this depends strongly on the StdDev, but the marginal benefit should fall off fairly rapidly, and the typical mid-to-late-game case shouldn't be 50/50? 13:31 Hmm, also, perhaps this is a way to buff weapons nobody uses, in some cases. Maybe things like scimitar should have a to-hit bonus. 13:32 I suspect that there should be more variation in weapon to-hit bonuses, yeah. 13:33 That goes back to the "ok, say your facing a high AC target vs a low AC target, what would you do differently" question 13:33 Chris_ANG: It should not be 50/50 mid to late game, no. 13:33 It is... possibly desireable for the player to be able to switch to a high-accuracy weapon. 13:34 jonadab: this is true. Currently weapons are picked first for if they have a nice artifact version and second for if they have good damage. 13:34 In particular, the damage of bludgeoning weapons should be higher. 13:35 Chris_ANG: possibly piercing = high accuracy, low damage, slashing = decent in both, bludgeoning = low accuracy, high damage? 13:35 as a rule of thumb, not actually coded anywhere 13:35 Not sure you want to tie it to damage type. 13:35 But yeah, more variety here would be good. 13:36 And weapons that have both high accuracy and also high damage should be difficult to obtain and/or only usable for certain roles. 13:36 I was thinking to base the rule of thumb on weapon type + size, which would partially correspond to that. 13:37 Or have other tradeoffs, such as being slow 13:37 A weapon that takes 18 'speed points' per hit instead of 12 13:37 Tarmunora: Like maces in Brogue? (Which no sane player ever equips...) 13:37 Like, a two-handed Ax would be high damage low accuracy, while a hand ax would be more even. 13:38 Speed is something that other systems use. 13:38 DCSS has it as an important mechanic, 13:39 If you want to see different weapons having different attack mechanics, look at Brogue. But I'm not sure most of that is the right fit for NetHack. Though what I did to axes, inspired by that, has seen mostly positive reception. 13:39 2e D&D did... something with speed (I think it just determined what order people hit in? And you needed fast weapons to interupt spellcasters?) 13:40 Considering how important speed is in nethack, I think slow weapons would have to be MUCH better than fast ones for people to use them :/. 13:40 yani: if you attack a spellcaster at maximum energy, it may cast a counterspell to ward off your blow 13:40 Chris_ANG: dcss' weapon system is IMO one of the most opache parts of dcss 13:40 opache? 13:40 I don't like it 13:40 opaque? 13:41 opaque yes 13:42 I think people also said yesterday that they don't like the idea of having to carry around a golf-bag of weapons, because they are constantly being forced to switch? 13:42 yup. You should be able to carry around just an offhand weapon, ideally. 13:43 jonadab: how about the only good-accuracy high-damage weapons are two-handed? That'd be the prime benefit of that fighting style 13:43 That's a fair point 13:44 also I'm going to steal that golf bag phrase 13:45 aosdict: That is not entirely unreasonable. 13:45 Two-handed does kind of need some better advantages. 13:46 Evil Patch idea: grim lich. A lich that has an actual bona fide AD_DETH attack. Because their spellcasting touch of death was too uncommon. 13:46 The only two-handed weapons that are any good at all are A) artifacts and B) mattock for Arc. 13:46 Oh, and _maybe_ unicorn horn. 13:46 The wiki kind of goes overboard a bit in telling you to stay away from them 13:47 The chance of getting two curses in a row before you can re-bless it is low 13:47 It's a real enough chance that you do need to have a plan for dealing with it. 13:47 Which is a significant inconvenience. 13:47 Well we have #tip now 13:47 Fourk fixes this for Barbarians with the Heart. 13:47 3.6 sort of fixes it with #tip. 13:48 But that feels like the wrong solution to me. 13:48 But I mean, it even warns about this for artifacts, which, come on, an artifact isn't going to get taken down twice in a row 13:48 I'd like to see some additional proposals for this issue. 13:49 [nd] Caveman (Val Hum Fem Law), 308 points, T:649, killed by a water demon 13:49 Only your right hand gets stuck to the weapon. You can't unwield or swap weapons, but still have a free hand. 13:49 Well, if it happens in Gehennom, there are 1) no priests 2) no prayer 3) no spigots of holy water 13:49 ^ idea 13:49 aosdict: There was a death on NAO a while back (3.4.3, IIRC) wherein the player ran into a purple L, got the curse effect twice, while wielding Magicbane. Didn't check inventory, just hit the Engrave Elbereth buttons. Magicbane was, yep, cursed. 13:50 The player's items are kind of what the player has to go on. 13:50 [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 3470 points, T:5160, killed by a Woodland-elf 13:52 (For those who don't realize: a cursed athame doens't do the magic athame thing for engraving. It works like a bladed weapon, such as a daggar. One turn per letter, and it dulls the blade by 1 point per letter. And once it starts you are helpless until the engraving finishes. The Elbereth did not finish before the player died.) 13:58 LarienTelrunya: I'm disappointed. all those scroll names with awful names. and none is called "PALIM PALIM" 13:58 hi bhaak! rest assured that it will be added in a savebreaking version soon! 13:59 ...There is a better picture than this somewhere, 14:00 but here is a picture of an videogame-anime-girl with a bag of swords: http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1458/74/1458748445052.png 14:00 Computer translation is up to its usual quality levels, I think. "Palim-Palim is a loudspeaker for the sound sequence of a certain door bell, as it was often used in Aunt Emma stores , to announce a customer's entry. The winged word was Palim-Palim by a sketch by and with Dieter Hallervorden from the series Nonstop Nonsens from the year 1977." 14:01 that's not that bad, actually 14:02 (that is from a game called Summon Night, in which the combat does indeed revolve around carrying a bunch of different weapons and switching between them regularly) 14:02 bhaak: It's incoherent. 14:03 loudspeaker is confusing, I guess in the original, something that means onomatopoeic should have been there 14:03 Chris_ANG: weapons are too heavy to carry a whole bunch of them around, and pulling them out of a bag of holding is impractical/not very fun 14:03 bhaak: Yeah, I eventually inferred that "loudspeaker" should be onomatopoeia. 14:03 "Aunt Emma" is too literal, that's how corner shops are called in German 14:03 So like "mom and pop"? 14:03 yes 14:04 I think the worst thing is "winged word". 14:04 but the rest seems right 14:04 No idea what to make of that. 14:04 The prepositions in the second sentence are also quite bad. 14:04 "by a sketch by and with", wat? 14:05 he wrote the sketch and was acting in it 14:05 What does it mean that the winged word was Palim-Palim by said sketch? 14:05 That part communicates absolutely nothing to me. 14:06 It's literally more incoherent than a Markov chain. 14:07 I think the most I'd actually want to inflict on someone is three: A main weapon, a ranged weapon, and something to round out the blunt-piercing-slashing triangle. 14:07 to further balacne out that triangle, magic missile does piercing damage and force bolt does blunt damage. 14:08 *balance 14:08 not sure if that's a good idea, but it makes casters have to deal with it too 14:08 palim palim is the onomatopoeic sound that said actor is making every time he enters the shop. and he enters it often. it's somewhat of a classic absurd sketch, to some extent comparable to the dead parrot of monty python 14:09 NeroOneTrueKing: magic missile and force bolt both do force damage, I think. 14:10 In dnh at least having spellcasting gets you out of having to worry about the triangle. 14:10 Instead, it brings energy resistances and MR to the fore. 14:11 Energy resistances are much more common than magic resistance. Most things that would resist magic missiles also will resist other magics 14:11 Rangers would probably need some kind of broadhead arrow for a second damage type 14:11 jonadab: oh, I didn't know that "winged word" didn't enter English. it's from Homer and translation word-for-word and means "popular sayings": http://www.iliadtranslation.com/winged_words.html 14:12 I wouldn't want to carry around *two* melee weapons as a bow-user just so I don't get screwed by things that resist piercing 14:16 [nd] Caveman (Val Hum Fem Law), 406 points, T:2198, killed by a wand 14:17 MR player style is quite rare, but many of the things that have it have at least one energy resistance unfilled. 14:18 LarienTelrunya: you should implement one shopkeeper greeting being "Palim-Palim, !" 14:18 lol, I might make that be the greeting in evilvariant mode :D 14:19 only if he sell fries and the player has an empty potion 14:19 EPI: Slash/cut, pierce, blunt impact, tension, compaction, corrosion, heat, cold, magical force, poison, shock, mental, emotional, spiritual, stoning, disintegration, sliming, sickness, and death magic are all now distinct damage types. Each attack does only one of them. Most monsters are only vulnerable to one of them. 14:20 [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 2991 points, T:4525, killed by Mr. Boyabai, the shopkeeper 14:22 jonadab: You forgot Dark Souls-style 'standard' damage. 14:22 Long swords, being the standard fantasy weapon, 14:22 of course deal 'standard' damage. 14:23 I mean that magic missiles works against nearly everything, which is the opposite of what (we're discussing) will happen with melee damage. 14:23 Chris_ANG: Oh, I would've thought long swords, being a blade, would do slash damage. But perhaps not. 14:23 Scimitars, as a fancy foreign weapon, of course do slashing damage. 14:24 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 14:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 14:27 Players shouldn't feel compelled to round out a kit with 1 high damage + 1 high accuracy + 1 ranged. That gets all samey again. 14:27 hi 14:27 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 14:28 NeroOneTrueKing: Oh, I wouldn't recomend going too overboard with the damge-type-triangle. Most targets should remain equally vulnerable to all three damage types. 14:28 !players 14:28 K2: NeroOneTrueKing [fh] jonadab [fh] Grasshopper [nd] Caveman [nd] groovejumper [dyn] 14:28 *damage-type 14:28 yeah, what I was going to say to Tarmunora is that we did discuss having armor and monster defenses be three stats instead of one 14:29 but that would promote golf bag strategy 14:30 I think the advantages/disadvantages should be frequent but a minor effect, as opposed to dnethack's uncommon but huge effect 14:31 So you can use an 'ineffective' weapon without issues; an enemy might take 6 hits instead of 5 to kill. 14:32 Oh, also Tarmunora, in dnh at least rangers get expert sling, so they can do Piercing and Blunt from range. 14:33 So to rephrase it, monsters have vulnerability to damage types, not resistance? 14:33 (kind of exists already with kebabable) 14:33 (but not really) 14:33 Though switching ranged weapon is a bit more inconvinient than switching melee weapons. 14:33 Chris_ANG: I like the idea of bodkin arrows though 14:34 I think bodkins are the armor-piercing ones 14:34 Whee, slings. :/ 14:34 Hey, slings are great. 14:34 I don't think I've ever said to myself in nethack, 'Gee, I wish I could sling this guy to death', or, 'let's pick up this sling and carry around a bunch of rocks' 14:34 When I could carry around the Longbow of Diana 14:35 whoops, they are 14:35 [nd] Caveman (Val Hum Fem Law), 612 points, T:2378, killed by a grid bug, while frozen by a monster's gaze 14:35 whatever type of arrow has a blunt point. 14:35 now what is Caveman doing playing a valk? 14:35 With blessed, enchanted, and possibly poisoned arrows 14:36 Tarmunora: Fourk lets you dual-wield slings (if you can dual-wield; Cavemen can) and thus get double the multi-fire rate with them. 14:36 Blunt arrows, of course, do not deal poison damage. 14:36 Boxing glove arrows 14:36 100% not Loony Toons 14:36 deal a staggering blow to your enemies 14:37 For some reason, I've always envisioned NetHack arrows as those ridiculous ones you see in cartoons, where the arrow head is at least 10 times the diameter of the shaft. 14:37 I'm not sure why I think of them this way. 14:37 I think we can all agree that vanilla slings are not strong enough? 14:38 even the wiki agrees with *that* 14:38 NeroOneTrueKing: The worst thing about them is the difficulty of keeping ammo for them. 14:38 Broadhead points are the sorta-slashing ones. Also, is that a *circular saw* mounted on that arrow head? 14:38 YANI: you can quiver gold, and fire it from a sling; it does more damage than a rock, because it's denser. 14:39 jonadab: I think you should be able to break rocks on a touchstone, or something, to make sling pellets 14:39 An issue with slings certainly is the ammo 14:39 aosdict: Or just increase the frequency of rocks? 14:40 I mean, this is an underground environment, you would _think_ rocks would be more common than, say, potions of healing. Or gold. 14:40 No, the problem is that nobody wants to carry around rocks, they're heavy, and they can't be enchanted. 14:40 Decent ammo (luckstones/flintstones) is just in too short supply, so the PC is forced to use rocks, which have half the die size 14:40 aosdict: That's... also true. 14:40 And even luck/flint is d6 14:40 dnh adjusts the player digging code to match the monster digging code (always leaves rocks), 14:40 YASI: if you can get them uncursed (so they can leave your inventory), loadstones do huge damage as a sling projectile. 14:41 don't they already do that? 14:41 and applies the characters strength bonus to damage with slings (so up to +8, higher than a +7 arrow) 14:41 Don't loadstone suffer a to-hit penalty though? 14:41 Historically, slings did more damage than (non-compound) bows (but required way more training to hit anything reliably). 14:41 also: there should be silver rocks 14:42 like some variants have 14:42 aosdict: Fourk has that. Silver nuggets. 14:42 They're not common enough, though. 14:42 Ditto dnh 14:42 dnh slings start getting viable once you hit the sum of all and get your hands on hte silver slingstones 14:42 -!- K2 changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ SporkHack updated to 0.6.5, includes dungeon overview patch. GruntHack to receive the same patch soon 14:42 I need to make the Caveman quest take place in a silver mine, or something. 14:42 They also exist in rock. 14:43 jonadab: solution: silver rocks you can break apart into silver slingshot 14:43 just like regular rocks 14:43 I think you can dig up a fair number in the mines. 14:44 aosdict: I like the rocks -> slingshot idea. Slingshot should weigh much less than rocks, per ammo 14:45 I also thought about making rocks not break, so you don't have to carry so many. 14:45 Also, you should only be able to create slingshot if you have Basic sling skill, and you make more per rock at Skilled and Expert 14:45 [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 3291 points, T:3876, killed by a gnome mummy 14:47 ...wait, why IS flint a better slingstone than rocks? 14:47 Oh, hmm, YANI: what if the fact that nobody ever enchants launchers is relevant to slings? What if enchanting slings were made useful in some way? 14:47 Chris_ANG: Not sure, maybe because flint can be given a sharp edge? Objectively, it doesn't make sense. 14:48 The perfect shape for a projectile is sphere. 14:48 (This has been repeatedly proven both in practice and in theory using higher math, fluid dynamics, etc.) 14:48 Well, the only problem with enchanting launchers is that if you can ALSO enchant your ammo and get damage from both, it's too powerful 14:48 Maybe just buff rocks to 1d6, then? 14:49 maybe enchanting launchers just gives range and accuracy? 14:49 Oooh, range. 14:49 I like that. 14:49 NeroOneTrueKing: that already happens 14:49 And maybe give flint the slashing damage type, even though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a slingstone? 14:49 and nobody uses it 14:49 (And accuracy, yes, I think it already does that, just nobody cares about accuracy because to-hit is broken.) 14:49 [nd] Caveman (Val Hum Fem Law), 574 points, T:1615, killed by a water demon 14:50 What if we made the status area actually show your thac0 with your currently wielded weapon? 14:50 (With the quivered ammo if the weapon is a launcher.) 14:51 (Or s/thac0/Accur/ or whatever we want to call it.) 14:54 jonadab: I prefer Accur or ToHit over thac0, for intuitiveness 14:55 I'm just gonna drop all the rock weights down to 1. 14:56 Except Luckstones stay at 10, I think, even though this lets you ID them based on weight :/ 14:57 touchstones can stay at 10 as well 14:57 how about making the weight of magical gray stones not be displayed? ;) 14:57 No reason to ever carry more than one touchstone. And you can put it in a BoH without major penalties. 14:57 or, at least, not displayed until you actually pick them up? 14:58 it isn't displayed, but can be figured out by seeing what you need to drop to unburden yourself 14:58 EPI: loadstones only weigh 1 when generated; but their weight is multiplied by 500 each time they are picked up. 14:59 Touchstones can be pretty trivially distinguished from other grey stones, though. 14:59 no, the weight of all loadstones in the game is multiplied by 500 15:00 aosdict: Oooh, even better. 15:00 EPI: rubbing a weapon on a cursed touchstone may shatter the weapon 15:00 Well, worse. More evil. Something. 15:00 Telling luckstones appart from flint is the only hard one. 15:00 Chris_ANG: why do luckstones have to stay at 10? 15:00 I never bother, I just carry one of each until I get full ID. 15:02 Fair point. It was to make there be some cost to carrying multiple luckstones in open inventory, 15:02 but actually I think it's not advantageous to do so in the first place. 15:02 it's better to keep extras in a bag so they don't get cursed 15:03 the player can generally obtain a supply of holy water before stuff starts to curse the player's inventory 15:03 ^ balance issue 15:07 Probably not a balance issue. 15:08 Each cursed item consumes a potion of holy water to fix, 15:08 Or else you have to write scrolls, yeah. 15:09 and the supply of holy water does not necessarily outstrip the rate of cursing. 15:09 (And marker charges are always in demand.) 15:09 In the midgame it does. 15:09 Late-game, perhaps not. 15:09 Especially if you don't genocide L. 15:09 Late game, the player has MR and possibly half spell damage, and probably a few blessed scrolls of remove curse. 15:10 True. 15:10 (and holy water being super-abundant probably has more to do with balance issues in potions (ie, the prevalence of junk potions)) 15:12 Curse items deals a form of strategic damage. The actual curses are easy to fix, but doing so consumes real resources. 15:12 Well, unless you can cast remove curse. 15:13 ^ spell balance issue, violates the tenet that reusables shouldn't be able to do everything consumables can do 15:13 It also has short term tactical implications, as you may be forced to drop your BoH untill you stabalize the situation. 15:13 True, yep. 15:14 Chris_ANG: The fact that so many potions have literally no other use, yes. 15:14 That's a distinct issue. 15:14 I want to make potion-throwing a viable thing. 15:14 Actually, almost all vanilla potions fall into one of three categories: 15:15 1. Part of the main alchemy chain to full healing and/or gain ability. 15:15 2. Blank 'em for holy water, no other use. 15:15 3. Rare and just not really important. 15:16 A couple of the potions I usually put in category 2 (e.g., object detection) do occasionally have other uses, but not in such quantity as would prevent you from blanking a big pile of them. 15:17 idea: potion of see invisible -> potion of sight. Same effects, plus cures blindness and if blessed cures hallucination. 15:18 That does seem like an improvement. Not a big one, but still an improvement. 15:18 Also fits with my dislike of intrinsic see invisible 15:21 aosdict: How do you feel about intrinsic monster detection? 15:21 YANI: detect monsters shows invisible monsters as I 15:21 (Fourk has it, but only one playable race can get it.) 15:21 aosdict: Heh. 15:21 Intrinsic monster detection? Like, permanent? 15:23 [dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 2884 points, T:7293, killed by a giant ant 15:23 aosdict: Sylphs get it at a certain experience level, yes. 15:24 There are flavor reasons. 15:24 But mostly it's intended to be a race advantage. 15:24 tried to load a NH4 game on N4O 15:24 Restoring the game failed. Would you like to remove it from the list? 15:25 what is this, NitroHack? 15:25 Are you sure you didn't connect to the 4.2 server by mistake? 15:25 lol 15:25 but it isn't up anymore 15:25 Or, wait, actually, I'm not even sure it's still running. 15:25 jonadab: I don't mind it if it's intended as a race advantage, as long as it's balanced. 15:26 aosdict: Sylph balance is still a work in progress, but it's intended to be balanced by various disadvantages. 15:26 Unless people start saying "play sylph because detect monsters is sooooo good" 15:26 sylphs hunger too much 15:26 FIQ: I addressed that. 15:27 But there are other issues. 15:27 they still hunger a lot if you cast spells 15:27 you have to deal with spell hunger 15:27 and all the hunger from recovering Pw 15:27 Ok, true. 15:27 -!- raisse has quit [Quit: Raisse suddenly disappears!] 15:27 and you hunger faster even with eota 15:27 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 15:27 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 15:27 in fact, eota can *speed it up* if you can't naturally recover pw 15:28 at least they don't hunger 3x faster than intended anymore :P 15:29 jonadab: my problem with detect monsters is how easy it is to spam, again and again and again. 15:29 Ah. 15:29 Again, a reusable can fully emulate a (blessed!) consumable 15:30 aosdict: How do you feel about spell maintenance? ;-) 15:30 Ah, yes, that's true about the spell vs the potion. 15:30 One of several reasons why potions of monster detection aren't important. 15:31 I feel that spell maintenance gets talked about a fair bit on here, usually in relation to fiqhack, otherwise I have no idea what it is 15:31 It's a FIQHack feature wherein you can cast a spell in "maintenance" mode, which causes it to be automatically recast periodically to keep the effect topped up. Works on spells that have a duration. 15:32 "usually in relation to fiqhack" 15:32 because it's a (currently) fiqhack-exclusive feature 15:32 but to be implemented in dnethack 3.15.1 15:32 as well 15:32 I feel like other variants are going to get it eventually, yeah. 15:32 I kind of want it in Fourk. 15:32 it was implemented in fiqhack over a year ago, you've had plenty of time ;) 15:32 Yes, I know. 15:33 I haven't GART yet. 15:33 ah 15:33 But my general feeling is, if spell maint, which is really a UI feature, makes certain spells seem OP, they were probably OP all along and just nobody noticed because of the tedium. 15:33 I mean, it seems just like a quality of life improvement over what there is now, but I would still prefer to reduce the number of spells that give effects like that 15:33 And the solution to that is to rebalance the spells that are OP. 15:34 jonadab: of course, but that doesn't make maintenance bad IMO 15:34 it merely exposes the problem 15:34 FIQ: No, I think maint is good. 15:34