10:39 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 10:41 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:6942 10:42 gg elenmirie 10:42 thanks! 10:43 all 10 still intact? 10:44 -!- Tarmunora-m has joined #hardfought 10:45 so far! 10:48 -!- Tomthetom has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:55 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 10:55 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 11:27 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:9181 11:38 -!- Tarmunora-m has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:39 K2: that ttyplay thing is cool 11:41 -!- Tarmunora-m has joined #hardfought 11:53 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:58 -!- Tarmunora-m has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:52 -!- Tomthetom has joined #hardfought 13:58 [fh] Freakitsar (jonadab) (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 54735 points, T:8486, killed by a flesh golem 14:07 -!- Tomthetom00 has joined #hardfought 14:08 -!- Tomthetom has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36 -!- Tarmunora_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38 -!- Tarmunora has joined #hardfought 14:40 !whereis tomthetom 14:40 FIQ: Tomthetom [fh]: No details available 14:40 ok 14:40 Just went through sokoban 14:40 !whereis Jackie Chan The Second 14:40 Tomthetom00: Jackie is not currently playing. 14:40 Oh lol 14:41 -!- elenmirie has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42 is this a trap? 14:42 https://puu.sh/x4Z4L/40be22d7ff.png 14:42 https://puu.sh/x4Z4e/4ed44eac5d.png 14:43 I'll just assume a nasty trap 14:51 Q_Q my touhou companion starved to death 14:52 EPI: a trap that causes the game to output everything in EBCDIC for ten thousand turns. 14:52 ^ lol 14:53 what does EPI: stand for? 14:53 Evil Patch Idea. 14:53 ahhh 14:54 [slex] dolores (Dol Sed Fem Cha), 600 points, T:1964, killed by a monster (tasloi zombie) 14:54 EPI: monsters know how to use expensive cameras and will use them on you and put trice corpses laying around in corridors 14:54 trice corpses? 14:55 cockatrice corpses 14:55 are they dangerous? 14:55 YES 14:55 EPI: whenever a player is blinded by an expensive camera, a footrice corpse is created on the ground under the player 14:55 a bit 14:55 if you like to be stone statue then they are not 14:55 how could their corpses hurt you? 14:55 oh 14:55 anything that can place a footrice corpse in a corridor can also hit you with it 14:56 but that doesn't instapetrify 14:56 EPI: medusa cameras. instead of flashing light they flash Medusa gaze. 14:56 and monsters know how to use them, of course 14:57 concentrated medusa stare, right in the camera! 14:57 EPI: a monster that's like a cockatrice, but speed 72. 14:58 EPI: Monks have no arms 14:59 EPI: wearing gloves impedes martial arts accuracy, causing you to miss 30% of the time. 15:00 is there any use for uncursed amulets of strangulation? 15:00 You mean besides as polyfodder? 15:00 polyfodder? 15:01 polyfodder is stuff you throw in the pile when you're going to zap polymorph. In the hopes that it'll turn into better stuff. 15:01 ahhh 15:01 Junk amulets are often thrown on the pile, in hopes of getting more amulets of life saving. 15:01 let's give Beholder a learndb so when someone says ? he'll automatically tell them 15:03 food boots of speed already! 15:04 and dead 15:05 EPI: all cloth materials gradually get dirty over time, which impedes their effectiveness. You have to wash them periodically by dipping them in water to restore their usefulness. 15:05 [slex] dolores (Cha Ill Fem Cha), 319 points, T:290, killed by a monster (porter baluchitherium) 15:13 jonadab: bring in soapy potions from unnethack, in order to wash something you need to first dip it in a soapy potion and then water. 15:13 If soapy potions are polymorph... oh well 15:16 Heh. That'd be marvelously evil. 15:24 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 15:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 15:31 Now, the dungeon will be more feminine for a while! 15:31 Eh, if you really want a feminine touch, you need to scent your laundry with lavendar or something. 15:32 that's probably what the trap did 15:32 just sprayed me with lavender! 15:34 t - a potion of lavender essential oil 15:34 you can probably #untrap it to get several of those 15:34 I really hope that is an item now 15:34 oh 15:34 good idea 15:34 can't disarm the trap 15:37 huh a "fart trap" 15:38 !tell LarienTelrunya yani for slex: lavender traps can be untrapped to get potions of lavender essential oil. Ants, which hate the smell of lavender essential oil, will flee from a character that smells like it. 15:38 Will do, aosdict! 15:40 that's cool there is an icebnox I can't carry 15:44 that's interesting after I casted a spell with 90% failure rate it's now 1% failure 15:46 [slex] dolores (Dea Lol Fem Cha) averted death, on T:1588 15:48 [slex] dolores (Dea Lol Fem Cha), 2029 points, T:1664, killed by a monster (gold golem) 15:57 [fh] NeroOneTrueKing (Wiz Elf Fem Cha), 35531 points, T:1759, killed by a monk called "Jackie Chan" 15:59 [slex] dolores (Cha Lol Fem Cha), 499 points, T:908, killed by a monster (night cat) 16:00 -!- Tomthetom00 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04 EPI: NetHack should have a Sudoku branch, similar in spirit to Sokoban, except it's Sudoku: to "solve" each level you must drop small stacks of coins on each tile so that no two tiles in any row, column, or diagonal have the same number of coins. 16:04 EPI: of course, the most common monsters in the Sudoku branch are leprechauns, rock moles, and evil coins. 16:06 Naturally, solving the Sudoku branch is the only way to get the artifact key that opens Minetown doors. 16:06 and of course some coins are fixed to the floor, so you can't change the values of that square 16:06 Heh. 16:07 Or maybe they're embedded in rock/walls, so you can only change the value by kicking the coins loose, which makes the value of that square zero. 16:07 Naturally, the walls would be unphaseable. 16:07 And undiggable, of _course_. 16:08 EPI: but the floors in Sudoku would be normal, and leprechauns can generate with wands of digging... 16:11 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50 [fh] Freakitsar (jonadab) (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed the ghost of Freakitsar, the former , on T:5736 16:56 ^ That should be "the former monk" 16:57 is that considered to be a known bug in Beholder? 17:08 I don't know if it's in Beholder or in the game. 17:17 [slex] dolores (Kor Hax Fem Cha), 437 points, T:305, killed by life drainage 17:26 K2: paste the relevant livelog line 17:36 version=4.3.0:player=jonadab:charname=Freakitsar:turns=5736:depth7:bones_killed=Freakitsar:bones_align=neutral:bones_race=human:bones_gender=male:bones_role=Monk:bones_rank:Initiate:bones_monst=ghost:eventdate=20170808:uid=5:role=Mon:race=Hum:gender=Mal:align=Neu:birthdate=20170808:starttime=1502216600:eventtime=1502225413:xplevel=8:mode=normal 17:38 Hmm, that seems ok to me. 17:38 Unless I am missing something. 17:39 hmm 17:39 i try to run it without dgl 17:39 says /var directory doesnt exist 17:39 heh 17:39 well it does that with other games too 17:40 Is that because you're outside the chroot? 17:40 probably 17:54 K2: OK so I clearly have the right info 17:54 Is the field wrong? 17:54 Maybe the field is different from other variants? 17:54 Contrary to what the bot is looking for 17:55 Dunno. 17:55 (I know the bot can be changed, but I'd rather have it consistent with other variants) 18:07 here's a similar livelog entry from fourk 18:08 version=3.0.4 variant=Fourk player=introsp3ctive charname=FourkFist turns=18011 depth=27 bones_killed=SCURSCUM bones_align=neutral bones_race=scurrid bones_ge 18:08 nder=male bones_role=Archeologist bones_monst=black unicorn eventdate=20170721 uid=5 role=Mon race=Hum gender=Mal align=Neu birthdate=20170717 18:08 starttime=1500267090 eventtime=1500603508 xplevel=13 mode=normal 18:16 K2: unnethack 18:16 has the equavilent line I think 18:16 ok 18:16 oh wait 18:16 I see the issue 18:17 Pushed a fix 18:17 thanks K2 for the line 18:17 np 18:17 what was it? 18:18 FIQhack updated 18:19 K2: "bones_rank:Initiate" 18:19 should be "bones_rank=Initiate" 18:19 ah 18:25 !commands 18:25 loli: available commands are !help !ping !time !pom !hello !booze !beer !potion !tea !coffee !whiskey !vodka !rum !tequila !scotch !goat !lotg !d(1-1000) !(1-50)d(1-1000) !8ball !rng !role !race !variant !tell !source !lastgame !lastasc !streak !rcedit !scores !sb !setmintc !whereis !players !who !commands 18:26 I did not know there were 10 drink commands 18:26 [sp] k2 (Pri Hum Mal Law), 120 points, T:264, killed by a kobold 18:26 !potion 18:26 * Beholder hands aosdict a tumbler of extra añejo tequila, fermented by Arsinoe at 442 Kelvin. 18:27 !lastgame 18:27 K2: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/k/k2/sporkhack/dumplog/1502231047.sp.txt 19:54 -!- zip_ has joined #hardfought 20:10 EPI: stealth ant, an ant you can't see until it's 3 squares away from you. 20:10 I say this with the full knowledge that it probably already exists in slex. 20:11 EPI: super stealth ant: not only can you not see it until it's adjacent to you, but even then only if you can see invisible, and even then its glyph is the same as floor. 20:11 Generates in groups. 20:12 EPI: super stealth lich. Like the super stealth ant, except it's covetous and a spellcaster and has touch of death and stuff. 20:13 Generates in groups and does not show up on telepathy. 20:14 EPI: covetous mind flayer. Like a higher-level mmf that can warp to you even on non-teleport levels, flay you, and warp away. 20:14 Non-genocideable, obviously. 20:18 jonadab: by the way, I wanted to ask what you thought of this idea for the to-hit system: 20:19 all bonuses and penalties add up such that a zero means an enemy should have 50% chance to hit. But instead of doing a die roll minus a constant as the to-hit roll, instead pick a normally distributed random number 20:20 By normally distributed, you mean like rn1()? 20:20 (That's a one, not an ell.) 20:20 (And, err, I think I mean rnd().) 20:21 No, a Gaussian distribution centered on zero. 20:21 Bell curve. 20:21 Ah. 20:21 Bell curve, ok. 20:21 of course I have no idea what the standard deviation should be at this point 20:22 A function would have to be written for that, but it can't be hard to find an example somewhere on the internet. (Just make sure it's not NGPL-incompatible.) 20:22 And a bell-curve-based random number function could also be useful for replacing rnz() 20:22 but it allows you to theoretically score a hit against insurmountable odds, or completely miss where it shouldn't be in question. 20:22 Since it can pick a number as high as infinity. 20:22 Actually, with integer arithmetic, that's not strictly true. 20:23 But it's closer to true than it would be with the existing logic. 20:23 So how would the condition look for whether the blow hits or not? 20:24 if (gaussian_rnd(attacker_tohit_bonus) >= gaussian_rnd(defender_evasion) ? 20:24 Or what were you thinking? 20:25 No, if gaussian_rnd() < (attacker_tohit_bonus) - (defender_evasion) 20:25 (Also: I definitely meant rnd rather than rn1 above, not that it's relevant now.) 20:25 Ah. 20:25 Hence why you said centered at 0. 20:27 This leaves room for things like invisibility and displacement and being caught in a trap to modify defender_evasion, either by adding a constant to it or multiplying/dividing it. 20:27 Which is probably good, as it makes things nice and flexible for fine-tuning. 20:27 Another idea is to have damage reduction partially based on if the result of gaussian_rnd() is close to the bonuses (a near-miss), so it's possible it's not centered at 0 20:27 But that's just changing the mean, and isn't difficult to do 20:27 Sure. 20:28 And near-miss is probably less relevant than barely-hit, for damage reduction. 20:28 Versus hit-dead-center. 20:29 Well, in the system I'm envisioning, the bulk of damage reduction comes from armor, but if you only beat the to-hit by 1 point there'll be a fair amount of reduction as well 20:30 Also, I meant barely-hit when I said near-miss. :I 20:30 Ah, right. 20:31 And yes, damage reduction should mostly come from armor. 20:31 Assuming you have a lot of armor. Which in NetHack you typically do. 20:31 Although if we make heavy armor hit your evasiveness, play styles might adjust a bit. 20:32 Armor and shield skills are being added in this proposal; currently shields are great for evasiveness and probably too powerful 20:33 If you're a Barbarian who trains armor skill to Expert, you can heft around plate mail with only a small evasiveness penalty 20:34 Well, maybe shields don't do damage reduction. 20:35 Currently they do not. 20:35 Also, you have to train that shield and invest skill points into it. 20:35 Which as a Valkyrie you probably will. 20:35 True, and the only ones that can make it to Expert right now are priests and barbs 20:35 (I might add valks too) 20:36 I like the modified version of Class Overhaul where Valkyrie are strictly less melee-oriented than Barbarians but have other abilities such as spellcasting (cone of cold, etc.) 20:36 That would make shield rather than two-weapon combat make sense for them, especially if shield skill makes shield not hinder casting much. 20:37 Right now only Expert reduces casting. Hmm, maybe I should drop valks' armor skill maximum to Skilled. 20:38 And elevate shields to Expert. 20:38 I should really just finish editing this and post the update. 20:50 posted 20:52 * jonadab adds that to his list of stuff he definitely needs to read through. Soon. 21:02 -!- zip_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:33 aosdict: Nitpick: Nethack's current problem is that it has blow way *past* what is needed to adjust the D&D system it was based on to account for the switch from 4 on 1 to 1 on zillions :P 21:34 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35 Serious feedback: 21:37 I think the most important questions to ask are "what is the problem(s) with the current combat system" and "what is the best way to address the problem" 21:45 When you frame it like that though, it seems like a foregone conclusion that you're going to end up only altering the combat system, not overhauling it 21:47 so you may nerf Luck here, make AC display as a positive Def value there, but there are still going to be oddities and cruft lying around 21:47 Not necessarily. I'm trying to put words to it, though... 21:48 I would say that two big problems are 21:48 1) (in the lategame especially) monsters feel samey, most aren't threats, the term 'popcorn monsters' exists. 21:49 2) (in the lategame especially) roles feel samey, a major contributing factor is that they are all equally good in melee. 21:50 Chris_ANG: Why does artifact_exist set rings of increase damage to +0? 21:50 One crucially important way to address (1) is to change the combat system so that qualitatively different types of monsters exist. 21:51 FIQ: No clue. Unless somehow it's 'futureproofing' from a time when rings of increase damage were the only charged ring? Was there ever such a time? 21:52 no 21:53 Only other guess is that someone was laying the groundwork for an increase damage ring artifact, but ultimatly never implemented it. 21:54 aosdict: Two (or three) such qualitatively different types could be 'easy to hit' 'hard to hit' and 'nearly impossible to hit', 21:55 -!- Tomthetom00 has joined #hardfought 21:56 attempting to create such classes using the current system runs into the problem that AC is currently muchmuch lower than to-hit, 21:56 Chris_ANG: Yes, and one reason for me wanting to add an evasiveness stat is it adds another dimension on top of "how much is foo damaged by a hit": you could have monsters like killer bees that go down when you eventually hit them, and iron golems that don't care if you can hit them because they can tank most attacks. 21:57 s/go down/go down in one hit/ 21:57 and increasing AC to match a particular to-hit bonus runs into the problem that the bonuses are large compared to the variance of the d20 ultimately used to decide if an attack misses or hits. 21:57 Right 21:59 But I would say that the primary problem is the large size of the bonus, which your proposal addresses by cutting the bonus-from-level down to 1/3rd level instead of 1x level, 22:00 -!- Tomthetom00 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:01 and the bonus from luck by cutting it to +1dluck/3 from a straight +luck 22:04 Ok, and also droping the entire bonus from armor. 22:05 Er wait, I'm getting confused.... 22:05 Bonus from armor is mostly unimportant to this: most enemies don't wear armor. 22:05 But it reduces the bonus from enchantment to +1denchantment 22:07 At any rate, the change from a uniform distribution to a gausian one doesn't address this at all, 22:07 Chris_ANG: 3) (in the lategame especially) the three major options for how to use your two hands (two-handed weapon, two weapons, or weapon and shield) don't feel like different options. Two of them just feel underpowered compared to the other, non-options unless your role can't #twoweapon. 22:08 instead it changes how some of the more extreme values behave.... And I *think* changes it only marginally. 22:08 Chris_ANG: wait, it doesn't address what at all? 22:08 Monsters feeling samey. And also roles feeling samey. 22:09 The gameplay effect of missing a monster 0% of the time and missing it .1% of the time are negligible. 22:10 Yes. The combat system itself only indirectly influences roles feeling samey (it's more about skill and weapon balance); monsters feeling samey can hopefully be ameliorated a bit by adding the evasiveness dimension 22:11 I feel like it's harder for people to wrap their heads around how a gaussian distribution works (and it's already pretty hard for people to understand a uniform distribution). 22:12 And both are influenced by the overall problem that a character deep in Gehennom is probably not lacking for any highly enchanted weapons or armor they want. 22:12 I feel like using a gaussian distribution complicates interpretation of the presented statistics, while not addressing any problem with the current combat system. 22:15 There's also a lot of dice rolls in the proposed system, 22:15 Chris_ANG: I think artiwishing was supposed to only allow 1 free wish 22:15 but has an off-by-1 accident when taking into account the artifact you just wished for 22:16 consider that increased randomness hurts the player character. 22:17 The reason for this is that increasing the randomness in a system increases the odds of an unexpected outcome, 22:17 I see two benefits of a gaussian distribution over a windowed uniform distribution: one, it prevents a to-hit check from ever being guaranteed to succeed or fail, and two, it better models what actually happens in combat. 22:17 but in a game such as nethack or D&D, the expected outcome for a player character is to win their battles, while monsters are expected to lose. 22:17 With a d20 roll, an orc thrusting a dagger is as likely to make a critical hit as he is to make his average hit. 22:18 Minotaurs are an example of this in vanilla nethack 22:19 for that matter, he's equally as likely to make the worst possible attack he can make 22:22 Nethack doesn't use critical hits, though? 22:23 No, but you see what I mean, though ("critical hit" = orc does really well and can score a hit even through strong defenses) 22:24 Also, the practical effects of a 0% failure rate and even a 5% failure rate are very small. 22:28 I see your point about reducing the number of die rolls. 22:28 I *want* enchantment to be a flat bonus, but having +5s and +7s all over the place are too powerful. 22:30 The other option is to add them back in and scale up the other bonuses and effective range of to-hit rolls accordingly. 22:40 !tell K2 pushed changes to artigifts and artiwishing -- only previous gifts affect artigift rate, only previous artiwishes affect artiwish rate 22:40 Will do, FIQ! 22:41 also nerfed artiwish rate: 100%, 50%, 33%, 25%, 20%, 17%, 14%, 12.5%, 11.1%, 10%, 9%, etc 22:41 to compensate 22:46 aosdict: Also, a to-hit formula that adds a scaling number to both sides of an equation risks creating a "red queen's race"-type situation. 22:47 Games can use such a system to force a situation where the player must face enemies of about equal power to themselves 22:48 (because enemies of lower level are too weak to pose a threat, and enemies of higher level are too strong) 22:48 nethack... 22:49 certainly seems to believe that enemies are still usable even if they are far lower level than the PC. 22:50 so you'd better make your first wish count in fiqhack 22:51 by the way, is anyone still maintaining dynahack and grunthack? 22:52 Chris_ANG: what, because AC doesn't affect to-hit below -10, so anything that can get to that point can hit reliably? 22:52 nevermind, the wiki has the answer 22:53 And such wide usability is probably a good goal, as otherwise you ether end up with a narrow set of usuable monsters, or end up needing a lot *more* monsters to fill in the gaps at different levels. 22:53 aosdict: Eh. 22:53 I mean, nethack is pretty clearly wrong about how long weak monsters stay relavent for. 22:53 bug_sniper: I felt that the old rules was a bit too lenient when making only wished-for artifacts count towards the artiwish chance 22:53 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:54 It rewards early wishes substantially which I didn't really like 22:54 Now it doesn't matter if your first artiwish is at Minetown or at Castle 22:54 So I feel like overall this is a good change 22:55 I know that Chris_ANG did a similar change but considering how dnethack plays, the old lenient rules make more sense in it 22:55 Nethack has a wierd overall power curve. 22:55 Chris_ANG: so it seems like you're arguing that the influence of relative attacker/defender level should be muted 22:55 Yeah, I would not hold dnethack up as a good example of how to balance nethack XD 22:55 aosdict: Reduced, not eliminated 22:56 Yeah, I was also going to add: 22:56 -!- Tarmunora_ has joined #hardfought 22:57 My exposure to 4e D&D and Saga edition Star Wars has left me with a deep dislike of systems where level is aplied to both attack and defense. 22:57 Monster wishing also messes with the artiwish counter, I feel like this is OK 22:58 considering how rare that should be 22:58 Hopefully they make good choices :P 22:58 Rodney wishes for slotless MR 22:58 A wish for demonbane/sunsword 22:58 Oh, right, 22:59 fiqhack monster wishing is very strongly focused towards flavour more than what is mechanically "best" for it 22:59 because otherwise monster wishing would be kinda OP/weird 22:59 -!- Tarmunora has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00 wish for a bunch of archon figurines and apply them 23:00 = rip player 23:00 Chris_ANG: a third solution to balance weapon enchantments is just to scale down their impact specifically, so a +7 sword is actually only +3.5 to hit or something 23:00 or +d7 23:00 but I'm not sure how much I like it 23:00 same with luck 23:00 +d(luck) instead of +luck 23:00 and XL 23:01 FIQ: well, Chris_ANG's argument is that too many dice rolls makes it too unpredictable 23:01 returning to my earlier train of thought: point (2) (roles are too similar) suggests that rather than a flat 1/3rd level bonus, bonus applied should be role-dependent. 23:02 A little of that exists already (ranger gets a flat +1 for all ranged attacks) 23:02 FIQ: yeah, too many random roles create situations like the Minotaur, where most of the time a monster (or group of monsters) is not dangerous, 23:02 but it seems tricky to do for all roles without essentially rewarding the optimal playstyle with a bonus 23:03 but every once in the while hits you with a *lot* more damage than you've been led to expect. 23:03 implement more role-specific features/disadvantages 23:04 FIQ: but now we're getting out of combat overhaul territory and more class overhaul territory :P 23:04 They are tightly interlinked, because a big part of the problem whith classes is that they play to similarly in combat :P 23:05 I tend to think that's more a result of some incorrect skill placements and some incorrect multishot bonuses 23:06 aosdict: something I've considered doing 23:06 is to look individually at each class 23:06 and consider "is this class well balanced? how can it be improved?" etc 23:06 But yeah, aosdict: When D&D faced a similar problem to this, one of the things it did was reduce max weapon enchantment from +5 to +3. 23:06 err, s/well balanced/unique/ 23:06 too much balance discussion :P 23:07 Chris_ANG: Yeah, but imagine the riots if anyone tried to do that in nethack 23:07 (again, I keep brining up D&D not because I think nethack should automatically follow its lead, but because I'm familar with it and they've faced many of the same problems) 23:07 *bringing 23:07 aosdict: jonadab is considering removing MC completely 23:07 and see what happens 23:07 FIQ: well, a fairly comprehensive class overhaul proposal already exists; a combat overhaul proposal does not 23:08 Halving the enchantment when applying it to to-hit does the same thing, though. 23:08 (reduces the max from +7 to +3 or +4, depending on rounding) 23:08 Well, it could still be +7 for damage. 23:08 Correlary: 23:08 I would say that DAMAGE is actually functioning about right. 23:09 HP is cheap, hitting odds are fragile 23:09 On the player side, balance is thrown off by a way-too-high regeneration rate. 23:09 > 23:09 *? 23:10 I meant that the player kills most targets in one or two hits, but can take multiple rounds of punishment before going down. 23:10 My problem with damage is that it's if you have more than 10 points of AC, you get a reduction of rnd(AC-10). That's not a very sensical system. 23:10 I would prefer less randomization in damage reduction 23:11 It's not great, because the randomness allows for sudden spikes of damage (see Minotaur). I think we agree :) 23:12 Regen rate seems balanced to me until you're at post-Quest experience levels. 23:13 how did I level? 23:13 Yeah, it goes nuts. 23:13 What do you want to write with? [- a-ceoq-swDGJLMP or ?*] 23:13 You feel more experienced. Welcome to experience level 7. 23:13 Oh, and until you drink five blessed potions of gain ability and max out your Con. 23:13 Oh, right, 23:13 I've been meaning to bring this up, 23:13 and I don't think I have. 23:14 Do you have an entry for the wierd mid-game-power-spike? 23:14 hi 23:14 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 23:14 K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-08-08 22:40 EDT: pushed changes to artigifts and artiwishing -- only previous gifts affect artigift rate, only previous artiwishes affect artiwish rate 23:14 Chris_ANG: it's kind of just distributed around everything else 23:15 there's no one cause 23:15 (ie, once the player gets holy water and IDs some useful items (enchant armor and weapon, and gain ability, perhaps being the big ones) there power jumps a lot) 23:15 Yeah, 23:15 FIQhack updated 23:15 ^^ FIQ 23:16 Also, at the ostensible end of the midgame, the player gets a dump of wishes. 23:16 it's probably worth having it as a separate note, with the caveat that because it's not just one problem, it probably doesn't have one solution 23:16 cool 23:18 It's also because the quest is in the midgame, which gives the player a powerful artifact 23:19 The solution of sorts that dnh has gravitated to is treating gehennom as part of the endgame. 23:20 See the sudden presence of demon lords that basically require a full ascension kit to fight. 23:21 Er, also, 23:22 not to jump between topics wildly or anything, 23:22 but returning to point (1) above 23:23 the combat system is only part of the problem, 23:23 and possibly not the most important part. 23:23 Consider: 23:24 lets say that you were facing two different enemies. 23:24 One is easy to hit, one is hard to hit. 23:24 How would you treat them differently? 23:24 while I think dnh gehennom is a bit silly demon lord-wise 23:25 Chris_ANG: depends on if they have special abilities and how well they soak damage 23:25 dnh gehennom is probably IMO the best gehennom revision overall I've seen in nethack 23:25 due to the pooled demon lairs increasing replay value 23:25 and making Gehennom actually interesting rather than a huge chore 23:26 Allthough I'd rather it not have the mazes for wiztower/fakewiz 23:26 Yes, one thing that is conspicuously absent from the balance issue list is mazes. 23:27 (This is because I've classified it primarily as a frustration issue, not a balance issue; the approach to dealing with a balance issue is to fix it, the approach to dealing with a frustration issue is to remove it in a sane way) 23:28 aosdict: mazes isn't imbalancing 23:28 but is bad for enjoyment 23:28 see above 23:28 Some amount of mazes are traditional! (but yes, I'm coming around to that point of view. I was looking at the caves-plus-lava maps in jonadab's proposal and thinking "yeah, that'd look pretty cool") 23:28 just brought it up since Chris_ANG mentioned dnh gehennom 23:28 Chris_ANG: a few mazes are OK 23:28 I like catacombs 23:29 best nethack maze level IMO 23:29 Chris_ANG: so where were you going with your hypothetical about an easy-to-hit and hard-to-hit enemy? 23:29 also slex mazes 23:29 if disregarding all the colors 23:29 it generates rooms sprinkled around for added variety 23:30 aosdict: That there is nothing the player can do differently. The higher AC one is just harder. 23:30 and loops/etc 23:30 and some of those rooms are shops and temples 23:30 one of few slex features I actually like 23:31 Yes. If you're going to have mazes, they *cannot* have the only interesting features be the stairs. 23:32 Chris_ANG: one of the problems is that the horned/barbed devil entry applies to more or less all the & in Gehennom 23:32 " lacks any real special abilities, though they are quite difficult to kill." 23:32 regarding demon lords 23:33 I want to at some point overhaul demons in general in nethack 23:33 make them unique 23:33 I meant everything besides demon lords 23:33 they're very same-y 23:33 me too 23:33 Ironically, horned devils are actually some of the most distinct, 23:34 because they have bullwhips 23:34 just like balrogs 23:34 You have your nalfeshnees which cast, that's good. You have your mariliths with six weapons, ehh that's okay. You have your balrogs with whips, meh. 23:34 also horned devils only generate with whips 25% of the time 23:35 This is partially where I was going earlier. 23:35 Part of the problem is that elemental damage is... 23:35 wonky 23:35 MC-protected 23:35 so 98% of them do nothing 23:35 90% in 3.6 23:36